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12759502 No.12759502 [Reply] [Original]

And what are the best smart contract projects?

I'll start with Chainlink so we get to smaller cap possible gems.

>> No.12759539

>>12759502
It's arguably the backbone of crypto. They self-execute without a middleman, which decentralizes the exchange of whatever. The vending machine example is a pretty good one.

However, how the processor acquires information or determines whether what sets of data validate the transaction is a whole different deal.

Has anyone figured out how to remove human intervention from oracles? Doesn't seem possible. Which will leave it open to corruption.

>> No.12759560

>How important are smart contracts to crypto?
everything
>And what are the best smart contract projects?
remains to be seen

Of the ones that have tokens you can speculate on, personally I think highly of these:
ethereum
chainlink
hubii (nahmii)
iexec

I'm watching a lot of other projects and have money in some of them, but I wouldn't feel right mentioning them because I consider their chances of success sub-80% and don't want anons to lose their lunch money due to what I said.

>> No.12759582

>>12759502
what a brapper

>> No.12759594

>>12759582
isn't it funny to think about how this brapper or better is easily achievable with 5 minutes of exercise a day and not having a totally garbage diet, yet 99% of women can't even do that?

>> No.12759635

>>12759502
Smart contracts aren't just important to crypto, they're important to mainstream finance.

Bitcoin allowed people to exchange "currency" peer-to-peer (i.e. without needing a bank, Western Union, other financial institution, ...)
Which was nice and groundbreaking and all.

But now imagine people being able to take/give out loans, insurance, ... all kinds of financial products in a peer-to-peer manner.
Without needing a bank, notary, insurance agent, attorney, ...
That's what smart contracts do.

If you think Bitcoin made it big, wait until you see what happens when smart contracts hit the scene.

>what are the best smart contract projects
Smart contracts were "invented" a few decades ago, in the 90s.
Until the late 2000s, they remained a theory because there was never a backbone for actually building smart contracts on.
With the advent of Bitcoin and its immutable ledger, that backbone is finally here.
What makes distributed ledgers like Bitcoin "immutable"? The fact that they are deterministic (i.e. there is no randomness, the outcome is known in advance and all that matters is: "has the desired outcome been achieved yes/no").
Now in order to work in mainstream finance, this system has to be able to process non-deterministic data; i.e. data whose state/outcome cannot be foretold in advance.
This is where "oracles" come in. They are essentially little contracts that operate outside of the deterministic blockchain (unburdening the blockchain and adding security), where they can reach consensus on things a deterministic system cannot (i.e. stock prices, temperature, arrival time, ...)
Notice how I said "they"; by definition no single oracle is ever able to trigger a transaction.
By now you should've noticed that "decentralized oracles" are the ONLY type of oracles that actually make sense.
And there's just one (1) project that is a credible force in the development of "decentralized oracles": and that is Mobius sirs.
No wait, I mean Chainlink.

>> No.12759667

>>12759502
>How important are smart contracts to crypto?
not very at the core

>> No.12759687

>>12759635
I should add that current smart contracts (as popularized by ETH) can indeed work without oracles, but all they can do is operate within a deterministic system.
That means all they can currently do is dispense, distribute, exchange, ... tokens based exclusively on on-chain data.

>>12759667
If all crypto wants to be is a "currency", then sure.
But a massive proportion of currently proposed use cases for crypto do require interaction with external data, meaning they require oracles.

>> No.12759708

>>12759687
i would argue that crypto doesn't need smart contracts at the core and smart contracts don't require external data at the core. not that it wouldn't be cool it's just so superflous when adoption at the core use cases have been staggering that i feel focus and effort is greatly wasted on it.

>> No.12759727

>>12759708
>crypto doesn't need smart contracts at the core
If all it "wants" to be is a currency, sure.

>smart contracts don't require external data at the core
If all they "want" to do is exchange different kinds of crypto based exclusively on on-chain data, sure.

What good is a peer-to-peer currency when you still need banks, insurance companies, financial institutions, ... to do anything other than send coins/tokens back and forth?

>> No.12759742

>>12759727
>If all it "wants" to be is a currency, sure.
that's all it is at the core.
>If all they "want" to do is exchange different kinds of crypto based exclusively on on-chain data, sure.
you forget voting systems and mechanisms which in a lot of cases are sufficient substitution of oracles.

>What good is a peer-to-peer currency when you still need banks, insurance companies, financial institutions, ... to do anything other than send coins/tokens back and forth?
you still gonna have all these anyhow. for a very long time. meanwhile a bitcoin bank would make a core difference in how people do banking. retaining full custody of your funds while enjoying the comfort and security of banking is a game changer.

>> No.12759752

>>12759742
>that's all it is at the core.
So far, yes.

>you forget voting systems and mechanisms which in a lot of cases are sufficient substitution of oracles.
Lmao, you mean reach on-chain consensus on external data?

>you still gonna have all these anyhow
Not without oracles.

>meanwhile a bitcoin bank would make a core difference in how people do banking
You need external data to do banking.

>> No.12759762

>>12759752
>Not without oracles.
you misunderstand, i said you will not be magically rid of insurance companies and financial institutions overnight just because you make a trustless json feed.

>You need external data to do banking.
no you don't, you just need n of m multisig wallets good key sharing schemes and deterministic smart contracts for things like ln.

>> No.12759769

>>12759762
>no you don't, you just need n of m multisig wallets good key sharing schemes
So, smart contracts.

>> No.12759775

>>12759762
>you misunderstand, i said you will not be magically rid of insurance companies and financial institutions overnight just because you make a trustless json feed.
You absolutely could.

>no you don't
Oh yes you do.

>you just need n of m multisig wallets
That's LITERALLY how oracles work.

Congratulations on reverse engineering oracles in an attempt to discredit oracles. I guess.

>> No.12759777

>>12759775
>That's LITERALLY how oracles work.
no

>> No.12759779

>>12759769
This.

>> No.12759780

>>12759769
uhm not really, you don't actually need smart contracts for n of m multisig, that's just one way to implement it flexibly. but again we are still talking about the smart contract capabilities bitcoin has not even at ethereum let alone oracles and shit.

>> No.12759783

>>12759775
>That's LITERALLY how oracles work.
wtf... no it's literally how multisig wallets work. you know things that have predated the concept of oracles by years.

>> No.12759784

>>12759777
Well let's ask Vitalik:
>instead of a long-running contract being run directly on the blockchain, all funds that are intended to go into the contract would instead go into an M-of-N multisig address controlled by a set of specialized entities called "oracles"
https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/07/22/ethereum-and-oracles/

>> No.12759789

>>12759784
yes oracles may _use_ multisig wallets for staking. it is not exactly a requirement. it's just one way to do it.

>> No.12759801

>>12759594
post body or stfu

>> No.12759805

>>12759789
>>12759783
And oracles work in that way.

You're not very smart are you?

>oracles may _use_ multisig wallets for staking
The fuck are you blabbering about.
Oracles use external data to cause m of n multisig wallets into triggering transactions.

Also, why did you switch IDs?

>> No.12759812

bitcoin already has everything rolled out to revolutionize banking as it is. everything done and released up and running. and it's not fucking happening. at all. and the reason for that i belive is that we are choked to death in shitcoins and competing projects. while it's good to have competing ideas prove themselves and letting the best solution survive and adopt for the next baseline, that's like 5-7 projects not 2000 and counting every day.

cryptos biggest problem is everybody just want's to pull a satoshi. they all want to print free money of their own. that's all anyone in the space cares about right now.

>> No.12759823

>>12759812
>bitcoin already has everything rolled out to revolutionize banking as it is
It has no way of incorporating external (i.e. non-deterministic) data.

>> No.12759828

>>12759805
>And oracles work in that way.
no. fuck you stupid asshole! multisig wallets are not oracles. and oracles are not multisig wallets. that's just one component of their operation. an underlying technology they try to build on. more over they are actually building the voting systems already implemented in smart contracts with multisig wallets. there is nothing new about oracles except the automatism and staking.

you try to pretend they are some fundamental things when all they are a matter of highly complicated convenience.

>Also, why did you switch IDs?
where?

>> No.12759834

>>12759823
and it doesn't need to for anything i described. private banking, vaulting / custodial services, ln (commercial payments) and atomic swaps require nothing of the sort.

>> No.12759839

>>12759560
What are some projects you feel are good. Or drop your telegram if you are willing to say in private

>> No.12759842

>>12759828
>no. fuck you stupid asshole! multisig wallets are not oracles
But oracles work by using external data to trigger multisig wallets.

You're really really dense.

>>12759834
>it doesn't need to for anything i described
If crypto wants to do any kind of banking/insurance/other financial product, it's going to need to incorporate external (i.e. non-determinstic) data.

>> No.12759859

>>12759842
>But oracles work by using external data to trigger multisig wallets.
and how the fuck would that make multisig wallets oracles? like you claimed you stupid fuck?

multisig wallets are not fucking oracles end of the story. we don't really need oracles for shit except for decentralized gambling.

>You're really really dense.
no man you are denser than a fucking neutron star.

>If crypto wants to do any kind of banking/insurance/other financial product, it's going to need to incorporate external (i.e. non-determinstic) data.
i just told you 3 times clearly and explicitly hy that is false. we got everything to make this happen already. oracles are good for shit like sports betting and that's pretty much all.

>> No.12759888

>>12759859
>and how the fuck would that make multisig wallets oracles?
lmao, quote me where I said multisig wallets are oracles.

>i just told you 3 times clearly and explicitly hy that is false
No you haven't.
In order to work as a bank/insurance company/financial institution, you need to work with external data (stock prices, debt figures, weather inputs, ...).

>> No.12759893

and here is the final nail in the coffin of we getting rid of banks":

the most important thing banks do is lend. this requires negative balances. it makes zero sense to take out a loan covered by a crypto asset collateral in the overwhelming ratio of cases. for lending to work you need a trustful legal contract and a legal system to enforce it. that's how lending is actually useful. the banks can do this on a small scale and short term with futures contracts that's true. and also true that for this you may not even need banks. but for real actual lending you need them. there is no way to enforce fulfillment of a negative balance by code in the crypto world when anyone can just make a thousand new wallet in a minute.

so i'm not saying outright that oracles are useless they are pretty fucking cool but for now they are like shiny toys we don't really need.

>> No.12759900

>>12759893
>so i'm not saying outright that oracles are useless they are pretty fucking cool but for now they are like shiny toys we don't really need.
like crypto

>> No.12759901

>>12759888
>lmao, quote me where I said multisig wallets are oracles.

here you stupid cuck
>>12759775
>>you just need n of m multisig wallets
>That's LITERALLY how oracles work.
>Congratulations on reverse engineering oracles in an attempt to discredit oracles. I guess.

you are explicitly implying that multisig wallets are just a derivation of oracles. when it's the other way around. and no the usecase of multisig wallets is a great superset of the use case of oracles. which is why i said you don't actually need oracles for most things.

>> No.12759909

>>12759901
>that's how they work = that's what they are
You are a brainlet of the absolute highest order.

Now address the other point in my post: In order to work as a bank/insurance company/financial institution, you need to work with external data (stock prices, debt figures, weather inputs, ...).

>> No.12759912

>>12759900
you are right of course the developed nations don't need crpyto and countries that do need them are all shitholes with no computers no mining no culture of information systems.

we will need crypto very fucking soon tho that would be my guess.

>> No.12759918

>>12759909
>Congratulations on reverse engineering oracles in an attempt to discredit oracles. I guess.

you can't get out of this one. this is the most retarded sentence i read on /biz/ today and then you clung to it after on mutliple occasions.

>> No.12759927

>>12759918
>you can't get out of this one.
Oracles bring external data to m of n multisig wallets. I was assuming you were aware of this fact.

But apparently you seem to think banking and financial products in general do not require external (i.e. non-deterministic) data, so you're a lot dumber than I could ever imagine.

>> No.12759931

>>12759909
>Now address the other point in my post: In order to work as a bank/insurance company/financial institution, you need to work with external data (stock prices, debt figures, weather inputs, ...).
i have addressed it multiple times

>>You need external data to do banking.
>no you don't, you just need n of m multisig wallets good key sharing schemes and deterministic smart contracts for things like ln.

>uhm not really, you don't actually need smart contracts for n of m multisig, that's just one way to implement it flexibly. but again we are still talking about the smart contract capabilities bitcoin has not even at ethereum let alone oracles and shit.

what is so hard to understand on this?
>we are still talking about the smart contract capabilities bitcoin has
do you fucking understand? you don't even need ethereum to do crypto banking. you don't need external data, you don't strictly need off chain operations they are a matter of convenience and or scaling.

>> No.12759933

>>12759927
>But apparently you seem to think banking and financial products in general do not require external (i.e. non-deterministic) data, so you're a lot dumber than I could ever imagine.
they don't fucking need it for anything we need them to do for us. all they need to provide is security and convenience. and for that we got everything.

why are you so fucking clueless?

>> No.12759943

>>12759931
>i have addressed it multiple times
You have absolutely not.

How does Bitcoin incorporate external data for financial products?

>>You need external data to do banking.
>no you don't, you just need n of m multisig wallets good key sharing schemes and deterministic smart contracts for things like ln.
>uhm not really, you don't actually need smart contracts for n of m multisig, that's just one way to implement it flexibly. but again we are still talking about the smart contract capabilities bitcoin has not even at ethereum let alone oracles and shit.
Smart contracts =/= oracles you brainlet.

ETH for instance does smart contracts without external (i.e. non-deterministic) data all day long.

>>12759933
>they don't fucking need it for anything
Then how would Bitcoin know what the price of a certain stock on a certain date was?

>> No.12759966

>>12759943
>How does Bitcoin incorporate external data for financial products?
jesus fuck what financial products are you talking about? we need the banks to provide safety for the average user and convenience in payments. that is the core of everything. if you have reached the level where credit cards are replaced by your phone and you can pay with bitcoin just as fast and easy but also in a trustless and secure manner then you can start talking shit about tokenizing securities (which is a fucking joke and brings trust right back to crypto where it doesn't belong).

>Smart contracts =/= oracles you brainlet.
i never said they were, where the fuck did i say anything stupid like that, you are the one that says retarded shit like that.

>Then how would Bitcoin know what the price of a certain stock on a certain date was?
doesn't need to, not for banking. that's for sure. 90% of the banks clients just receive payment and spend on groceries. that's the extent of their banking. and bitcoin right now can't even do that without introducing new risks and technical complications.

>> No.12759979

>>12759966
>jesus fuck what financial products are you talking about?
You do know what "investments" are right? They're the backbone of all financial products.
You also do know that basic financial products like loans and insurance depend greatly on external (i.e. non-deterministic) data like age, income, assets, ...

>i never said they were
Then don't post a rebuttal about smart contracts when talking about how external data gets into the blockchain.

>doesn't need to, not for banking. that's for sure
AAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>90% of the banks clients just receive payment and spend on groceries
And you think their money actually sits in their account unused, waiting to be withdrawn by the owner?
You are so fucking clueless it's absolutely adorable.

>> No.12760008

>>12759979
>You do know what "investments" are right?
why would you use crypto for a centralized trustful legal contract (security)? that makes no sense. especially not a priority now.

>Then don't post a rebuttal about smart contracts when talking about how external data gets into the blockchain.
all i said is we need multisig wallets to do banking and we have them already (they don't even need smart contracts they could just be data structures used by the protocol). then you went on wailing about oracles.

>And you think their money actually sits in their account unused, waiting to be withdrawn by the owner?
that's the point, the very reason why we need crypto in the first place. because your deposit is no longer yours. but with bitcoin banking it will remain in your full custody. the bank only providing signatory service for the most part and be your lightning hub. it will probably also let you participate in the ln pool but that's again a legal contract. as crypto doesn't deal with nor can enforce negative balances. only the legal system can.

>> No.12760022

>>12760008
>why would you use crypto for a centralized trustful legal contract (security)?
You wouldn't, lmao.

>all i said is we need multisig wallets to do banking
And external data.
Don't forget about the external data.

>that's the point, the very reason why we need crypto in the first place. because your deposit is no longer yours
Well just keeping your funds somewhere for you to use is the "currency" use case of crypto. This is the one use case crypto has had since 2008.
We're talking about financial products like loans, insurance, investments, etc.

>> No.12760043

>>12760022
>You wouldn't, lmao.
but stocks and every paper asset is just that.
tokenizing them and trading them in a trustless decentralized way does not change their nature. it may remove brokerages from the game. but that's it.

>And external data.
>Don't forget about the external data.
i didn't forget i explicitly said we don't need that for anything else than sports betting and other sorts of gambling.

>Well just keeping your funds somewhere for you to use is the "currency" use case of crypto. This is the one use case crypto has had since 2008.
that's my point it doesn't work for most people because it's not secure and not clean and not convenient enough for most users. adoption rates are abysmal and changing this is what crypto banks are capable of and they don't need anything not already in bitcoin for that.

>We're talking about financial products like loans, insurance, investments, etc.
i told you again and again that negative balances are not enforceable with crypto or smart contracts, this makes it superfluous on top of the legal system. not important at all right now.

>> No.12760060

>>12760043
>but stocks and every paper asset is just that.
Absolutely.

>tokenizing them and trading them in a trustless decentralized way does not change their nature.
Regardless of whether they are expressed in crypto or in anything else, their future state is non-deterministic.

>i didn't forget i explicitly said we don't need that for anything else
So how would Bitcoin know the price of stock X on date Y?

>they don't need anything not already in bitcoin for that.
Well they need external data connectivity.

>i told you again and again that negative balances are not enforceable with crypto or smart contracts
I'm talking about using external data in a deterministic environment to allow for mainstream smart contracts.

>> No.12760070

>>12760043
I just realized, you're just here to muddy the waters by posting dumb but complicated-looking bullshit.

>> No.12760073

>>12760043
oh and by the way if we get to the point where smart contracts are recognized by the legal system as binding as far as ownership of underlying assets of securities are concerned then we can take a step forward sure enough but still won't need oracles not for stock issuing and trading not for other collateralized securities which might be smart contracts of their own. it's all doable in a deterministic way or maybe with distributed voting in extreme cases.

fully trustless lending is a no go with crpyto, but lending against these securities may be doable albeit of limited use.

>> No.12760080

>>12760073
You cannot use non-deterministic data in a deterministic system (blockchain).

Thus, you need oracles to import non-deterministic data.

This paves the way for mainstream financial products powered by smart contracts.

>> No.12760086

VERY
QUANT

>> No.12760093

>>12760060
>So how would Bitcoin know the price of stock X on date Y?
it doesn't need to that's my point again and again and again.
you gonna use the market. the market determines the price if your ask is met. bitcoin doesn't know it's own price either doesn't stop people from trading it obviously.

>Well they need external data connectivity.
for the tenth time: only for sports betting not for anything important

>I'm talking about using external data in a deterministic environment to allow for mainstream smart contracts.
we don't need that for banking. what we need is crpyto banks that provide good solid service with the tech already available. and a crypto friendly legal environment (which means the least possible regulation especially hoops and red tapes). the only reason i have not started my own bitcoin bank is the fucking laws that are still stuck in the 18th century make it virtually impossible even tho technically i could do it.

>>12760070
>you're just here to muddy the waters by posting dumb but complicated-looking bullshit
it's the simplest fucking thing, there is nothing complicated about it you brainlet.

>> No.12760102

>>12760080
>You cannot use non-deterministic data in a deterministic system (blockchain).
you don't want to. nor you need to. end of story.

>Thus, you need oracles to import non-deterministic data.
see above you don't want to you don't need to end of story!

>This paves the way for mainstream financial products powered by smart contracts.
that is not what we need right now what we need is adoption which comes via safe secure convenient private banking experience and commerce. this replacing the traditional legal system thing can wait a few decades easily.

>> No.12760105

>>12760093
>it doesn't need to that's my point again and again and again.
Of course it does.
Any kind of transaction predicated on a future stock price depends on it.

>it's the simplest fucking thing, there is nothing complicated about it you brainlet.
I said "complicated-looking".
You're spewing absolute nonsense, to be sure.

>> No.12760109

>>12760102
>you don't want to. nor you need to. end of story.
So how would Bitcoin know the price of stock X on date Y?

>that is not what we need right now
But it is.

Bitcoin provided peer-to-peer currency, but it is of extremely limited impact without actual peer-to-peer financial products (i.e. smart contracts).

>> No.12760134
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12760134

>>12760093
>mainstream smart contracts are only good for sports betting
Bitcoin maximalists, everybody.

>> No.12760288
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12760288

>>12759901
>explicitly implying

>> No.12760307

>>12759502
Not as important as Live Contracts will be

>> No.12760310 [DELETED] 

>>12759801
He's right, lazyass, keep falling for shooped pics and postures designed to hide flaws and accentuate curves.
She has top tier face though.

>> No.12760323

>>12759502

Not as important as you think, and not in the way you think. Getting nervous about your shit link?

>> No.12760325

>>12760105
>Any kind of transaction predicated on a future stock price depends on it.
that's not mainstream banking for one and since stock are a centralized trustful security you are not getting anything significantly important out of trying to trade them in a decentralized trustless manner. so it's moot point.

>You're spewing absolute nonsense, to be sure.
or you are a fucking brainlet that can't understand the simplest basic terms.

>So how would Bitcoin know the price of stock X on date Y?
it doesn't need to. again i told you this you are not paying attention you are trying hard to solve a non-issue.

>Bitcoin provided peer-to-peer currency, but it is of extremely limited impact without actual peer-to-peer financial products (i.e. smart contracts).
no it's limited impact without adoption. and adoption is lacking not because of missing features and even further complications! adoption is lacking because it's not more convenient safe and secure than fiat based traditional banking!

we need to fix the user experience for simple commerce. then we can go on expanding this. oracles do nothing for the end user masses. (unless you want to play the lottery with smart contracts at all costs)

>> No.12760453

>>12760325
>that's not mainstream banking for one a
It's just an example of a financial product.
And stocks are a massive part of what banks do.

Other examples include the price of oil, gold, land, other currencies, etc. Any kind of asset.

>it doesn't need to
It does if it wants to handle any kind of financial product not 100% based in blockchain.

>no it's limited impact without adoption
Adoption isn't going anywhere so long as all you can do with crypto is send it back and forth.

>> No.12760486

>>12760323
>"Smart Contracts (SC) promise to transform automation in the financial industry, and are generating huge interest amongst financial institutions and technology providers."
t. Swift

>"Smart contracts aren't that important, haha fuck Link"
t. anon

Smart contracts generated massive buzz and financial growth even when the only real working smart contracts involved ETH shitting out tokens.
Watch what happens when smart contracts enter mainstream finance.

>> No.12760498

>>12759502
>I'll start with my bags

>> No.12760519

>>12760498
Chainlink and its parent company Smartcontract have been used and namedropped by some of the world's elite financial influencers though; Swift, WEF, Capgemini, Gartner, the EU, ...
It's the premier smart contract project right now aside from ETH, so it only makes sense to start with it.

>> No.12760809

>>12760453
>And stocks are a massive part of what banks do.
not directly they wrap them into securities of their own (which is as centralized as it gets) you are not getting anything out of trading them at a third party and not them. it's a non issue. every fucking time either unsolvable (like lending) or a non issue.
>Any kind of asset.
there is no way to back an asset backed crypto in a decentralized or trustless way. there is simply none. it's trivial to separate the asset from the token and sell both for anyone willing to desert for short term profit. again an impossibility and non-issue!

>Adoption isn't going anywhere so long as all you can do with crypto is send it back and forth.
that's 99% of the worlds commerce. huge market that crypto could take a sizeable share from. which would bring on adoption. nothing else you need than enable users to sell shit for crpyto and buy shit with crypto and keep crypto as savings nothing else required.

>> No.12760819

>>12760486
show me an eth token that is not fucking worthless aside from dai! which is tied to a centralized trustful reserve banked fiat currency. dai is an important step forward, but a prime example why you don't need oracles at the end of the day.

>> No.12760839

>>12760809
>not directly they wrap them into securities of their own (which is as centralized as it gets) you are not getting anything out of trading them at a third party and not them. it's a non issue. every fucking time either unsolvable (like lending) or a non issue.
Cope harder with the fact that stocks for instance are a major part of financial products.

>there is no way to back an asset backed crypto in a decentralized or trustless way.
What the fuck are you talking about?
It's as simple as "price of asset X at time Y equals Z", and having this trigger whatever type of contract you have going.

>moving crypto back and forth 99% of the worlds commerce
lmao

>moving assets back and forth is 99% of the worlds commerce
You mean using currencies to buy non-currency assets?

>> No.12760895

>>12760519
Same old bunch of made up connections with no reflection in reality.

>> No.12760902
File: 1.73 MB, 209x213, 1404836238130.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
12760902

>>12760819
>dai is an important step forward, but a prime example why you don't need oracles at the end of the day.
Dai uses an oracle you absolute brainlet.

>> No.12760909

>>12760839
>Cope harder with the fact that stocks for instance are a major part of financial products.
i was mainly talking about banking but the same is true for most financial services. take vanguard for example! when you buy their funds you buy their security, you don't buy any stocks. often enough they don't buy any stocks either only securities based on those stocks derivatives of derivatives. and you could tokenize all that without a single fucking oracle. not there there is much point in it... but you could.

smart contracts don't require oracles for the vast majority of financial products and services. it's that simple. only certain types of futures and options contracts would benefit from oracles but, there is not much that could be traded i a trustless decentralized manner where it would make sense where it would provide value. you could trade for example btc against ltc. boo hoo!

>It's as simple as "price of asset X at time Y equals Z", and having this trigger whatever type of contract you have going.
you don't understand i see, you can shove your price up your ass when you bought a token where the underlying asset was sold separately. you are holding air. it's worthless. since asset backed tokens can only be backed in a trustful centralized manner trading them otherwise gives no true benefits. they are the least important thing we need to tackle.

i was talking about commerce and money, this is what crypto needs to tackle first. fucking commerce and savings. if it can't there is no point to the other shit. and it's all legal trustful relationships if you think about it, there is no way to buy anything in a trustless manner with crypto.

first need to provide a system where users can spend their crypto like they can spend their fiat. only cheaper faster more safe and secure than a fucking cc. possibly more anonymous that would be a plus.

oracles are the 126th least important things for adoption.

>> No.12760915

>>12760902
no it doesn't the users maintain the system in a distributed way. if anyone uses json feeds they trust and automation that's not a requirement. you can do it by hand.

>> No.12760920

>>12760915
>no it doesn't
Yes. Yes it does.
This is hilarious.

>> No.12760973

>>12760920
fuck maker actually implements oracles i didn't remember that. but the point it the system would work by user voting and without automation even. all they need is incentives. oracles are convenience. not a requirement.

>> No.12760998

I want to smell a woman's ass.

>> No.12761000

>>12760895
Except they are literally mentioned by name you moron.

>> No.12761015

>>12760973
The system depends on oracles for precisely the thing you claim oracles aren't needed for.

>The reference price (ETHUSD) for the Maker system is provided via an oracle (the medianizer), which collates price data from a number of external price feeds.
https://developer.makerdao.com/feeds/

This is a very embarrassing moment for you.

>> No.12761026

Smart contacts are ultimately the big play for crypto. The value exchange will remain niche and not take off imo, cash is just too easy.
For smart contracts to be of value they need to be completely trustless, transparent and secure. Ethereum is inarguably number one.

>> No.12761033

>>12759801
Nice reading comprehension

>> No.12761038

>>12760909
Smart contracts are only a practical possibility since immutable ledgers (blockchain)
Immutable ledgers are immutable because they are deterministic
Mainstream banking/finance/investment/insurance/... relies heavily on non-deterministic data
Oracles allow immutable ledgers to use non-deterministic data
Therefore: oracles make smart contracts possible in mainstream banking/finance/investment/insurance/...

So far, crypto has been useful almost exclusively for creating and moving around "currency".
Adoption thereof will always be limited when you still need banks, insurancy companies, etc. to even use your money.
Hence, smart contracts will unleash the true potential of crypto.

Curtains, applause, flowers, bowing, champagne.

>> No.12761080

>>12761026
This very much.
With the addition that ETH is the base layer for smart contract solutions to be built upon (Vitalik's words).

>> No.12761613

>>12760819
>>12761015
B T F O
T
F
O

>> No.12762136

> ITT Jimmy Song acts like a bitch for a million posts

>> No.12762343

>>12759539
>Has anyone figured out how to remove human intervention from oracles? Doesn't seem possible. Which will leave it open to corruption.

If IOT sensors can be made and securely used, sure. Human intervention will be a thing of the past for certain things. AI must get better first though too.

>> No.12762437

>>12759594
Yep, it's fucking sad. Women are failures.

>> No.12762638

>>12761015
>The system depends on oracles for precisely the thing you claim oracles aren't needed for.
no actually the users are incentivized to maintain price equilibrium. without their work it wouldn't operate. that is why i say you don't need an oracle. users can get price data from anywhere.

>> No.12762648

>>12762638
>no actually the users are incentivized to maintain price equilibrium
And the data for the price equilibrium is provided by oracles.

You are so out of your depth it's not even funny. Go do some research you absolute buttbrain.

>> No.12762663

>>12761038
>Mainstream banking/finance/investment/insurance/... relies heavily on non-deterministic data
this is here you are wrong. the vast majority of operations that interest users don't require non deterministic data, and or doesn't matter where it comes from. say you want to change some btc to usd and your bank is telling you he will exchange it at 3500 but you think btc is 3600 then you say fuck off and send btc to an other exchange. that simple your bank is incentivized to find you a fair reference price.

this oracle business is totally overblown.

>> No.12762679

>>12762663
>the vast majority of operations that interest users don't require non deterministic data
Simply moving currency around doesn't, no.
Crypto has been able to do this for a decade now.

Pretty much everything else does.

>> No.12762688

>>12761038
>Hence, smart contracts will unleash the true potential of crypto.
they already are here, it's just you think we need oracles for the vast majority of shit we don't because you are a fucking retard.

current deterministic smart contracts could build a new world as it is yet nothing fucking happens. and everybody is circlejerking about which useless scamcoin will moon next.

>> No.12762697

>>12762679
>Simply moving currency around doesn't, no.
not just that exchanging, escrowing, vaulting, custodial services, signatory services, ultralight online wallets, ln hubs, payment channels, ring signatures, mixers, don't require it either.

>> No.12762705

>>12762688
>they already are here
Yes, but they are entirely limited to crypto. They can only use deterministic, on-chain data.
Hence, current smart contracts are only good for creating and moving crypto.

Outside of these two meme-tier use cases, any smart contract requires external (non-deterministic) data.

>> No.12762720

>>12762697
Outside of creating and moving crypto, nearly everything requires non-deterministic data.

>> No.12762750

>>12762720
i have told you again and again what the world need is storing (safely and securely but also in control of) crypto and spend it (fast cheap and efficient). that's all and we don't have it and we don't need any new complication for this everything is already working up and running.

crypto users are introduced to systemic risks that they are not comfortable with as it is. directly because it's the fucking wild west of informatics. all oracles do is complicate these risks and introduce new ones not even most developers could understand. if anything that would hurt adoption.

>> No.12762756

>>12762705
>They can only use deterministic, on-chain data.
yes and that is perfectly fine. everything else comes from user actions and signatures and transactions.

>> No.12762767

>>12762756
fleta

>> No.12762892

anything that doesn't happen in bitcoin isn't important

>> No.12762949

>>12759594
>99%

incel detected

>> No.12762956

>>12762892
on the other hand the most important thing doesn't happen to bitcoin. adoption!

when the user experience sucks donkey ass when you are fucking exposed at the exchanges and can't spend it anywhere locally nobody will fucking adopt it unless their fiat system is already gone and crumbled around them. this is the curse of the good times i guess.

>> No.12763034

>>12759635
thanks Thomas

>> No.12763045

>>12759727
again, Thomas. Its great to see you posting on 4chan. I have been thinking about bringing this up with the team.

>> No.12763190

>>12760839
Okay Thomas, I have had it. I understand this member of the community is having a hard time understand this but there is no reason and I REPEAT - NO REASON. To use profane language on a public forum. Im gonna need to see you in my office first thing Tuesday.

>> No.12763200

>>12761000
>MORON

THOMAS!

>> No.12763542

>>12762750
>>12762756
Stop blabbering, it's impossible to read your ramblings.

Outside of simply storing and moving currencies, financial products rely OVERWHELMINGLY on non-deterministic data.
And the way to get this non-deterministic data into a deterministic system like a blockchain, is to use oracles.

>> No.12763555

>>12762756
>>12762750
Even what you thought was the one token of value turned out to be using oracles anyway.
It is very clear you have no idea what you're talking about.

>> No.12763567

>>12759594
shut up incel

>> No.12763810

>>12763555
it's clear to me you need oracles in your life like some need jesus.
rationality has nothing to do with it. there is no debating you. so fuck off!
and yes i was wrong about maker, which we can chalk up as the second thing oracles can do aside from sports betting then.
for everything else you don't fucking need oracles.

>> No.12763830

>>12763542
>financial products rely OVERWHELMINGLY on non-deterministic data
in your head. but what they actually depend on is trust and a legal system. which oracles can't substitute.

>> No.12763971
File: 224 KB, 728x538, chainlink PoC slide.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
12763971

>>12763810
>for everything else you don't fucking need oracles.
Until you do your research, and then you'll realize you need oracles for anything non-deterministic.

>>12763830
>in your head.
Oh sure.
Pic related.

>what they actually depend on is trust and a legal system
Get a load of this faggot lmao.

>> No.12764060

>>12763971
>and then you'll realize you need oracles for anything non-deterministic
so you don't really need them for anything. exactly my point.

>> No.12764235

>>12764060
Like Maker didn't need them for their stablecoin, right?
You clueless poopyhead.

Also, what about pic in >>12763971
?

>> No.12764329

>>12764235
>Also, what about pic in
that's just a picture man... i can draw shit like that too when i'm bored. but i can tell you from a glance if you erased all chainlink cubes it would still work just the same.
male a market rate smart contract where banks vote with their interest rate every day smart contract takes the median, voila chainlink removed and it still works just the same. same shit for swift, swift confirms payment with a countersigned transaction to the smart contract no need for oracles at all.

>> No.12764890

>>12764329
>that's just a picture man..
oh no it's not.
That's Swift's use case for oracles.

> i can tell you from a glance if you erased all chainlink cubes it would still work just the same
Only oracles can work in those places.

And what about that flight delay insurance that's live right now, Axa Fizzy?
Another key example of a use case for oracles.

>> No.12764905

>>12764890
>Only oracles can work in those places.
i just told you how you can easily remove them. if the data source is swift anyhow the data authenticity is based on swift, might as well just sign it, and then you don't need no oracles to tell you swift indeed signed that data, because it's a fucking signature you can validate with deterministic script.

>> No.12764958

>>12764905
>if the data source is swift anyhow the data authenticity is based on swift, might as well just sign it
You have no idea what oracles are and do.

Also, the data source isn't Swift in any of those cases.
In fact, Swift would hardly be signing any data ever, it's a messaging service. The data is always coming from someone else.

You're retarded on so many levels it's really entertaining.

>> No.12764959

>>12759859
you can handle private keys in an enclave lol

>> No.12765078

>>12762638
>no actually the users are incentivized to maintain price equilibrium
You were literally told by Maker themselves how Dai uses oracles for its fundamentals, and you STILL thought users being incentivised somehow bypassed the need for oracles.
You are clueless.

>> No.12765104

>>12764958
>In fact, Swift would hardly be signing any data ever, it's a messaging service.
yeah money orders are technically messages alright but you should rather think of them as transactions. i don't know the technical specifications for how swift works but i would be extremely disappointed if they were not signed. the swift network observes these transactions and acks and can provide a simple certificate for the success or failure of the transaction (which may include the signed receipts form the banks also) for any smart contract either asking for it or specified in the transaction. so again where do oracles fit in? you just don't fucking need them for anything.

>> No.12765442

bampu

>> No.12765453

>>12765104
>so again where do oracles fit in?
Learn what they are first.

>> No.12765544

>>12765078
i have to admit while i'm fascinated by dai i can't claim to understand it well enough to poke holes into the oracle stuff there. but i can easily do so in the case of axa fizzy.

you got 4 centralized services engaged in a trustful relationship to begin with, you got the airline you got the organization maintaining database for flights you got the insurance company and the payment processor say card company. airline feeds data of flights on trusted channel to the database which feeds it to a smart contract created by the insurance company, the payment is verified to the insurance company by the usual channels after which the smart contract is created. again where the fuck do you need an oracle? especially a trustless distributed oracle? the answer is you don't you can get automated insurance without any human involvement in setting up or claiming without oracles. you can call data apis and data feeds oracles but we all know it's not what they supposed to be about.

let's say for fucks sake there is no data feed at all, nothing you could possibly stick the oracle label at all. what would happen in this scenario is you would get a signed transaction for a ticket from the airline which you could send to the flight database maintainer who could issue a signed proof to you that simply "states flight of ticket with hash H was delayed by m minutes" then you (actually a mobile app automatically) present this to the smart contract with your ticket and it just fucking pays you end of story because it is a deterministic smart contract written in that way. everything that works with oracles works fine without oracles. and definitely works without chainlink. you may need eth or a similarly capable chain but it's also possible you could do the same on btc after all it roughly has all the capability required for ln already.

>> No.12765549

>>12765453
>Learn what they are first.
they are trustless decentralized datafeeds which are utterly superfluous when the source of the data is always centralized trustful.

>> No.12765559

>>12765544
This word salad is just sad.

>>12765549
Confirmed for not knowing what oracles are.

>> No.12765583

>>12765559
>This word salad is just sad.
yeah i realized some time ago that you don't read anything just type out the same bullshit again and again.
>Confirmed for not knowing what oracles are.
they are that tho. just that.

>> No.12765592

>>12765583
>they are that tho. just that.
t. someone with no clue what they are.

>> No.12765632

>>12759594
you can also make your lips bigger with facial exercises but she chose fillers

>> No.12765634

>>12765592
okay what do you think an oracle is if not a data feed that observes and serves third party data?

>> No.12765647

>>12765634
Don't worry about it.

>> No.12765688

>>12765647
that's one was to throw in the towel. alright i accept your capitulation.

>> No.12765733

>>12765688
What crypto coins do you own sir?

>> No.12765768

>>12765688
>utterly superfluous when the source of the data is always centralized trustful
Oracles don't verify data. They (one hopes) guarantee fidelity of data reported, i.e. that it is unchanged from data provided by the source. You won't do the five seconds of thought to understand the distinction or why it's important.

>> No.12765782

>>12760093
>for the tenth time: only for sports betting not for anything important

Brah, this is so narrow minded.

There are so many examples of external data for different types of smartcontracts.

You just made yourself out to be an idiot.

>> No.12765801

>>12765733
btc pretty much, i'm very patient to see what else emerges by the end of the next decade. for now only bitcoin matters.
>They (one hopes) guarantee fidelity of data reported, i.e. that it is unchanged from data provided by the source.
again signatures make this superfluous. they actually verify data integrity and untampered state without any intermediary.

oracles would have one use case, if you wanted to input our shared perception of reality (not a single trusted services) onto the blockchain there would be no other way to do it. then you need oracles. fortunately for the vast majority of shit you want to do with smart contracts you don't. as oracles are too critical and too problematic when used.

>> No.12765811

>>12765782
>There are so many examples of external data for different types of smartcontracts.
yes but there is no need for oracles to get it there when the source of the data is centralized trustful service. why can't you people just understand this simple thing?

>> No.12765816

>>12765544
So you’re describing a situation where trusted data providers act as their own oracle by interacting with the contract directly, thereby bypassing the need for some oracle middleware to handle the data transfer. Well, I’m this case you need to convince the data provider that it is their job to push information to the blockchain. I don’t know that you can get the airline to agree to this responsibility of reporting the flight data onchain. Their job is to make the information available, it’s the requesters job to use the data as they see fit. And the contract can’t request data from the data provider for the obvious reason that it breaks the determinism of the consensus model.

So voila, you find yourself needing a middleware intermediating the source of the data and the on chain contract. I know this is a difficult concept to wrap your head around at first, but seriously consider it because this will be a foundational concept for how digital contracts are handled pretty soon

>> No.12765817

>>12765801
sorry the second part was for >>12765768

>> No.12765820

>>12765811

Dude, the whole point of oracles is because there is very little evidence of data that is centralized and trustful.

Banks provide Libor rates that they don't trust and then sue each other after 5 years of misrepresenting data.

Just because you say there is a centralized trustful service doesn't mean there is one.

>> No.12765828

>>12765816
>So you’re describing a situation where trusted data providers act as their own oracle by interacting with the contract directly
no i specifically described situation where they don't.
>Well, I’m this case you need to convince the data provider that it is their job to push information to the blockchain.
like i said you can leave that to the party that benefits from the action. in this case the insurance claimer.

>> No.12765836

>>12765811
its getting to the point where you are speaking nonsense.

"centralized trustful service" is a joke. 100% of the data providers out there will have incentive to lie or cheat if there is benift to do so. Especially in an automated economy powered by smartcontracts.

once again, your making yourself out to be an idiot.

>> No.12765838
File: 53 KB, 800x450, 1535885518123.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
12765838

>>12765811
>there is no need for oracles to get it there when the source of the data is centralized trustful service
You have no idea what you're talking about.

>> No.12765841

>>12765820
there is always one. the flight database is a prime example which relies on the airlines for the input. who are again trusted and known (in crpyto terms they sign)

>> No.12765855

>>12765841

Dude, of course there are examples in which you don't need oracles. For every 1 you give I can give you 1. you say flight database. i say Bank libor rate.

you say something else,. i say gold price.
You say something else. i say silver price.

it will go on forever. But the point is, smartcontracts in the derivitives, finance, insurance markets will 100% need oracles. because in those markets there is no such thing as a "centralized trustful service" as you claim.

Who in there right mind is gonna trust a centralized service when transacting, with automation, 10s of millions of dollars to 100s of millions of dollars. It doesn't make sense.

>> No.12765859

>>12765836
>"centralized trustful service" is a joke.
funny that all the useful data provided by oracles in every example comes form one. it's how our world operates if you think about it for a moment. we get the data we use to make decisions or execute contracts from trusted sources usually some form of central authority.

>> No.12765865

>>12765811
We believe that the rise of smart contracts will cause an increased competition in data providers, with more options to decentralize emerging. This isn’t a change that will happen overnight and suddenly the oracle problem is solved, but it will be a hugely valuable system once the pieces are in place.

We already have a wealth of information available on the web, and since the infrastructure is there, contracts would be foolish to pass up the opportunity.

In cases where only one data provider has the authority to provide some data, you still need an oracle. There’s always a need for the intermediary when you want to get data onchain. We believe a decentralized approach maintains data transfer security and licenses that- while not ideal- would have the potential to be usable. Let’s start with usable and iron out the details from there

>> No.12765871

>>12765859
i just gave you examples of world markets, seperate world markets that give you data.

Dude, your not making any sense.

>> No.12765872

>>12765859
You have no idea what oracles are.
Protip: they're not about decentralizing sources.

>> No.12765873

>>12765855
bank libor rates, ok, here is the thing every bank can report for himself nobody can possibly know it better than the bank that makes the announcement. oracles are in this case utterly useless.

>> No.12765885

>>12765873
>DUDE, your not making any sense what so ever

There are different Libor rates for different banks. Banks have incentive to cheat so they have in the past given false Libor data. With oracles that wont happen.

Just get off the board already.

>> No.12765888

>>12765873
Oracles have nothing to do with how trustworthy the source is.
Sources have always had their own mechanisms for penalizing bad behavior and poor performance.

>> No.12765894

>>12763542
this is what is so funny about people. really the key to understanding oracles is actually understanding the concept of determinism. its such a subtle thought, but has massive implications. we really are on the groundfloor of a major breakthrough in the history of humans

>> No.12765898

>>12765801
>actually verify data integrity and untampered state without any intermediary.
That's slow and susceptible to attacks that cause outage of the reporting mechanism (see oraclize). Not good enough.

>> No.12765953

>>12765871
i have to admit right now i can't come up with a better way to incorporate real time price data to a smart contracts decision making than oracles. it would be too much work to do it manually. not impossible just quiet tiresome and inconvenient.

it's just that for most operations between two party there is always an agreement with set parameters that can always input by hand. when i buy a security from my bank he bank makes me the final offer with all the details and transaction number with a take it or leave it option. if i dislike the price feel it unfair or inaccurate i choose to cancel not sign. i can't fucking imagine how would oracles help with this process. the bank is incentivized to give me a fair price or i go to an other bank not to mention the face they lose.

but again, it's not an actual issue, as the underlying security is not a trustless decentralized thing to begin with. and i don't think any data exchanges feed to you can be considered that either. technically the exchange is also a centralized trustful service in this case that can lie to each and every oracle polling it.

so really oracles are too delicate and too complicated, introduce systemic risks hard to assess for the end user too ambitious to present state of crypto, very often superfluous (inserted only for fucks sake) and a constant source of retard pajeet shilling.

>> No.12765999

>>12765885
banks offer libor rates what the fuck are you talking about?
>>12765888
so they are utterly worthless then. but of course there is a possibility of multiple oracles getting data for a shared perception from multiple sources and agree on the truth filtering out outliers as errors or manipulation so what you are saying is not exactly true.

it's just these scenarios are nigh nonexistent currently. because the past systems couldn't handle such input reliably. so everything was centrally aggregated and stuffed under some authority that was held responsible.

>>12765898
>That's slow and susceptible to attacks that cause outage of the reporting mechanism
no verifying signatures is not slow. blockchain script does it all the fucking time. as for missing data or denial of service attacks that affects oracles just the same.

there is one thing that oracles do that is actually useful: they can act on your behalf even in your absence. this is about their ability to trigger smart contracts instead of you (who's interest this would be in normally), but this is more of a convenience thing as far as i see it.

>> No.12766004

>>12765999
>so they are utterly worthless then
See >>12760486

>> No.12766052

>>12760973
>>12761015
/thread

>> No.12766104

>>12762949
>>12763567
>i-it's g-genetics incel

>> No.12766125

>>12766004
smart contracts are one thing, but oracles are quiet an other. in a way central authority was the oracle to the traditional legal system, smart contracts can take on the role of lawyers it stands to reason that oracles would take on the role of central authority however currently their only reliable source of data is said central authority. which makes them useless in the vast majority of legal or transactional cases. i'm trying real hard to find anything they are useful for or anything where they can't be substituted by simple voting or presenting signed data by the party with interest in an outcome, because they fascinate me to no end.

it seems to me that in reliable trustless data aggregation they may have a fringe use case it doesn't look very important to be honest. and of course the triggering thing where they basically act as your agent in your benefit. again mostly you can do without this it's a convenience feature.

>> No.12766137
File: 161 KB, 1478x1108, 02cdd892af930e75307f3b526b5684ff.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
12766137

you guys need to stop talking

>> No.12766174
File: 25 KB, 588x240, 1112.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
12766174

>>12759635

>> No.12766176

>>12766125
correct, the central authority is still susceptible for fraud. But smartcontracts currently have NO way to communicating with outside data except for someone to input that. Thats where CL comes in. It takes away that human aspect of everyone else double checking that there was no error or fraudelent behaviour on their part in entering the data that SC's need. And by selecting multiple oracles (10-1000) to have a say on the data input into a SC, you can verifiably be certain that the data has not been tampered with. This is why CL is important. It's not because of fraud from central authority, it's because it is able to get that data and input it into a SC without another third-party involvement. The idea of oracles will grow and develop over time it the way it handles data, and with new sensory tech. it will be directly fed from the sensor into oracles minimizing central authority of committing fraud.

>> No.12766277

>>12766176
>except for someone to input that.
yeah but my point was you can do a fucking lot with that already. it's perfectly fine in itself in a lot of cases. we could be building on that and seems like nothing fucking happens. that is what bugs me. a lot.

>> No.12766550

>>12759502
they are an actual use for blockchain technology (decentralization) having an entire network of users verifying the terms before, after and during execution of a contract will create markets for services we cannot even imagine.

>> No.12766762

>>12765999
Yes, they offer libor rates. That is the point. But libor rates differ between banks. get it now?

>> No.12767416
File: 325 KB, 1363x1129, 1550190755363.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
12767416

>> No.12767988

>>12759594
Salty incel lmao

>> No.12768114

>>12759582
>>12759594
I think it would be funny if people posted brap on instagram to when these girls post ass pictures

just a thought

>> No.12768471

>>12766125
>smart contracts are one thing, but oracles are quiet an other.
No they're not.

Without oracles, smart contracts will only ever be useful for creating and moving around crypto.

>> No.12768498

>>12765999
>if oracles don't have anything to do with the trustworthiness of the source itself, they're utterly useless
That's like saying roads are utterly useless because they don't have anything to do with the reliability of the cars that use them.

You are clueless and retarded at the most basic level.

>> No.12768502

>>12759502
not at the moment. smart contracts is computing, we are still trying to figure out scaling.

>> No.12768507

>>12768502
Probably the most cucked answer in the entire thread.