/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>28598012
BTC might destroy USD

USD hodlers are mad

USD is such a shitcoin, I always convert whenever I get an airdrop

>>28598073
>biden promised 2000 usd airdrop
>it's been months and they keep delaying and reducing the amount
I think usd is gonna rugpull soon bros

>>28598012
>"Experts"
I believe you mean (((Experts)))

>>28598012
they're obsessed with the word currency and trying to find reasons why bitcoin doesn't fit the definition of that word

>>28598178
came to post this

i wondered about this too and read up on it a while back, basically deflation encourages lower monetary velocity

what that means is people are less likely to spend their money and more likely to hold on to it

this slows down the economy, less money moving around means less goods and services are produced, which is bad for growth

so it is actually a bad thing for a country's currency to do. but obviously inflation can also be bad so it's a balance

>>28598267

also I should add that afaik this is logic applies to traditional fiat currency but personally I think crypto being thrown into the mix probably changes things. I don't know how multiple active currencies effect the models

>>28598121
lol

>>28598012
Because they can't manipulate the value of BTC (and other cryptocurrencies like it) like they can with fiat currency.
It's a direct attack on the central banking system, (((their))) cash cow and source of global influence.

>>28598325
ALSO personally I think that bitcoin is more akin to a trustless bank than a currency

>>28598012
bitcoin is inflationary at a decreasing rate

>>28598178
((((No coiners)))))

>>28598267
>we should encourage people to think short-term and waste their capital
fuck you

>>28598840
>money isn't meant to be spent.

>>28598121
This but unironically

>>28598840
that's literally not what i mean anon, it's not about short term thinking at all

think about it like this: Sue pays a store $50 for a pair of shoes, the store then pays Bob $50 to stand behind a counter for a day, and Bob pays Sue $50 to suck his Dick. We can all agree that these are valuable goods and services, and the key thing is that they are all accomplished with the same sum of money. so those $50 are actually generating $150 of value, because it was used multiple times. it has a high velocity and so a higher amount of value is generated through it.

>>28598012
Its bad. But for whom exactly?

>>28598121
Lmao they rugged in 1971, retards have been bagholding for 50 years

>>28598870
>money needs to lose value over time

>>28598012
because they are so retarded that they are unable to divorce bitcoin from the “new money” narrative rather than store of value which it much more closely resembles.

unfortunately we need money to be inflationary for the economy to work at all otherwise it gets hoarded by whoever is able to devise a scheme to gather it up the best.

>>28599355
>unfortunately we need money to be inflationary for the economy to work at all otherwise it gets hoarded by whoever is able to devise a scheme to gather it up the best.
thats exactly what is happening know, so inflation doesnt work for that purpose.

>>28598012
Deflation is bad for a currency because being able to pull money out of your ass is the basis of modern economy unironically.

>>28598012
Because eternal deflation is physically impossible. Eventually the BTC in circulation will represent resources, goods, and services that don't even exist. Sound familiar?
Second of all. Bitcoin consists of discrete, indivisible units. If BTC's exponential growth somehow does manage to hold up eternally, what do you do when 1 satoshi is worth 10 days worth of food? How would you buy 9 days worth of food with BTC? If your answer is "uhh use another crypto bro" then why the fuck even bother with BTC in the first place when I could use something with a relatively fixed value like PAXG instead?

>>28599480
IMO, that's less to do with inflation and more to do with the fed depositing said inflation directly into the pockets of the rich. The system is basically completely broken at this point so it's hard to really draw conclusions about how functional it is when it *isn't* broken

>>28599112
>$150 of value creation
no. the difference here would be that if it were bitcoin, sue and bob could each hold/lend/invest their $50 in something more valuable than a pair of shoes and a BJ long-term. with dollars they have to spend now because your (((MMT))) buddies are devaluing their cash and making a game of hot-potato out of it.

>>28599724
>Eventually the BTC in circulation will represent resources, goods, and services that don't even exist
What the fuck are you talking about? If 100 BTC represent 100 goods and 10 BTC are taken out, now 90 BTC represent 100 goods, value of BTC goes up. All that happens
>what do you do when 1 satoshi is worth 10 days worth of food
So just like 1 gram of gold is now too expensive to use at a grocery store? Wow that makes gold literally worthless I guess

>>28598840
Deflationary doesnt mean shit for you or me. Plus or minus 1% of fuck all is stilm fuck all. But when you have a companoes like apple shitting on a mountain of cash is on the interest of everyone to light a little fire under them so that money actuayoves, and doesnt stay there comulating dust and value.
Mild inlfationary coins (like monero) are the only ones that has the potential of becoming de facto fiat once everything stabili,zes in some years. Whales will never let go deflationary assets

>>28599724
good god /biz/ is full of retards. learn what a saturation curve is

>>28599890
the price of cash is not set by how much isn't in circulation you mong. it's set by how much is in circulation. if there were a giant horde of cash buried in mars it wouldn't make us all magically poor.

>>28598840
Deflation is bad, but that doesn't mean people should go out and spend and consoom.

>>28600056
printing money literally punishes you if you don't consoom. or buy (((stonks))) of course

>>28600114
Both are bad, denying this is stupid. Question is, which one do you prefer to be the trend in the long run. I personally prefer deflation, because it's easier to mitigate its effects in a decentralized coin.

>>28599785
I was a bit afraid that you wouldn't get the tongue-in-cheek nature of the examples I gave... The logic still applies to "valuable" goods and services too. Like this:

Bob buys a hammer and nails for $50 from a hardware store (a valuable good!) to supply his carpentry business. The store pays Sue $50 for her hard work selling hammers (a valuable service), Sue pays Bob $50 to fix her roof (another valuable service).

See? Same logic. You can replace the examples with anything you consider "valuable", the logic still remains that higher velocity = more value generated for the same amount of $$

And by the way, I was just explaining the concepts behind why deflation is considered unhealthy for an economy. I'm on your side about this, I think banks and institutions are full of shit fudding bitcoin, I don't think any of this even applies to bitcoin. I think the reason (they) hate bitcoin so much isn't because it's a replacement for money, but because it's a replacement for them

>>28598012
Why would you borrow BTC to someone to get more money with interest if you could win money with BTC just holding?

>>28598012
bitcoin is inflationary
stop parroting moonboy delusion
just because there is controlled issuance, does not mean deflationary

>>28600482
The term is actually disinflationary. It's a controlled release but on a decreasing scale. You can also predict the release schedule precisely, which can't be said of fiat or even metals

>>28598267
You are correct, your other responses don’t know what they are talking about. What the experts all fail to mention is that the deflation crash won’t be for a long time. Not until after all the bit coin has been mined. Eventually all the small holders will get shaken/ cashed out, as big institutions buy up everything little by little. At some point it will be like gold, hoarded in large quantities by banks, governments, etc. unlike gold however, it isn’t a physical commodity. And that will ultimately be its downfall. Now it probably won’t happen in our lifetimes because Bitcoin won’t be dried up by mining for like a hundred years or something, then the small guys will eventually sell enough. The price will skyrocket to crazy prices and nobody will want to buy, causing Bitcoin to collapse. Also at that point DeFi and probably more that haven’t even been developed enough will be around so there will be alternatives and people will lose interest in Bitcoin. So in summary, no it’s not going to financially ruin anyone soon and will still likely increase much in value over the next few decades, but yes, Bitcoin is inevitably going to crash because there is no way to burn it, decreasing the supply over time.

>>28598267

That's of course only a jewish theory that's wrong. Gold and real estate are still traded.

>>28600810
ah that makes a lot of sense, thanks for the extrapolation

>>28599724
>gold is useless because you can't grocery shop with a 1kg bar of gold guise!!!!!111

And it's the village idiot at it again.

>>28601197
Gold has actual objective physical value, retard.

>>28598267
Look up "time preference." Inflation distorts time preference and pushes it lower. This results in malinvestment, wild bubbles, and capital depletion as people adopt insufficient savings rates. Economy built around inflationary currency = endless consooooming. The last fifty years we've been devouring our stored-up wealth and papering over the absence with debt. Also look up the Cantillon Effect - it's how the wealthy are slowly siphoning what little capital the rest of society has left.

Read The Bitcoin Standard. The author is kind of a retarded ideologue when it comes to art and other subjects he knows nothing about, severe case of engineering brain, but he lays out clearly the monetary problem Bitcoin fixes.

>>28598840
You're the one that will be fucked by deflationary crypto baka.

>>28599724
>Bitcoin consists of discrete, indivisible units
it is divisible
oh god the retard

>>28601601
>ummm actually gold has real uses and based on that it's real value isn't 0 it's $1 per kg
Okay retard

>>28601845
sats are indivisible.

>>28598012
>“Experts” keep saying that
that's all you need to know. we have a technology that doesn't care about what macro economists think the central bank should do with the interest rate, or any other lever they can pull to influence the economy. We have an alternate financial system being built that will obsolete half of Wall St. of course these boomers fear for their lives because they're staring at the thing that puts them out of a job, forever.

Because they want your bigcoins

>>28601013
Gold and real estate HAVE to be traded because gold has industrial usage and people need real estate for their lives and businesses.

BTC doesn't need to be bought. It's also not a "jewish theory" The first anti-deflationary theory was actually thought up By Julius Caesar when he noticed that prices of goods were lowering over time due to cheap slave labor so people were hoarding their gold and not buying goods, anticipating prices to get lower.

Caesar even tried to "print gold money" by mining excessively to try and get the value of gold down. It was the first time they proved you can spur consumption by increasing the money supply.

You should learn some basic history anon. Deflation is very bad for the economy and currencies that are deflationary are never used, only currencies that are inflationary are used. Deflationary things instead become assets and store of value.

>>28601678

*inflation pushes time preference HIGHER

>>28598267
>>28600810
midwit

>>28601881
bitcoin can decide to add an infinity of more decimals if needed, like one more decimal if the human population x10

>>28598012
It just means that it sucks as a currency since everybody wants to hoard and hodl.
Doesn't mean it's not a good store of value since absolutely everybody wants a piece of that pie, and lower transaction volume means the design limitations of BTC don't matter as much. It really is digital gold, slow and expensive to move but sort of an anchor in the crypto space.

>>28598012
That doesn’t matter. In fact, it is good for savers. What matters is when the supply of bitcoins runs out, transaction fees are supposed to take over, but there is no standard for a transaction fee, so miners can choose not to process your transaction if you don’t offer a high enough fee. This could lead to an insecure blockchain and eventually collapse.

Well we already have historic evidence of what happened to countries with massive deflation. It happened with Japan in the 1990s and lead to its economic collapse and "lost decade" which is still ongoing and has lasted 3 decades already of pure stagnation because the Yen keeps deflating which means wages get lowered and prices get lower which means people buy fewer goods because they rather save their money as they know their wages will be lowered again and prices will drop as well so even fewer goods will be bought so wages get lower and there is fewer work etc etc. It's a terrible situation.

A more famous historic scenario is that of the Roman Republic under Julius Caesar and later Augustus Caesar. Julius Caesar noticed that due to rampant slave labor the goods slowly became cheaper and people started hoarding their coins and saving them instead of buying goods because they anticipated the prices would keep dropping. So producers of those goods had to lower their prices just to attract customers causing a catch-22 where deflation took hold and there being fewer and fewer jobs for Roman citizens while everything got done by slaves instead.

It was solved by Julius and Augustus by mining more silver, salt and gold which were the currencies at the time which led to inflation of those currencies and thus people started buying goods again as they noticed there is no purpose to saving it if it stays the same value or becomes worth less. And the Roman Economy expanded under this forced inflation.

Throughout history empires that had hyperinflation resulted in a total collapse of the economy and state in 28% of the cases.

Hyperdeflation resulted in the total collapse of the economy and state in 73% of the cases.

Deflation is one of the worst things that can happen to an economy. Luckily for us cryptocurrencies aren't actually used as a currency and merely as speculation and store of value. Our actual money we use daily is inflationary so hopefully we won't collapse.

>>28601950
Lol nice counter argument retard. Nobody is going to care about something that costs millions of dollars for one single token when they can use shitcoins with better utility. It’s like having something that’s so rare, you think it has lots of value, but because nobody wants to buy you’ll never get rid of it. You can wear gold, if you’re a sand nigger you can get gold plated cars and toilets. Gold rings and shit will always be attractive to people. Bit coin will eventually get so expensive that people will stop giving a shit. And because there’s no burn it’s just going to sit around never moving. At least have some kind of thoughtful argument you mongoloid, my iq is in the 130s and I have the ability to extrapolate ideas that you simply cannot understand. Keep buying bitcoins, it still has the potential to make you rich, but it will be utterly useless to our grandchildren

>>28598012
Find me anyone saying this that isn't a member of the long nose tribe.

>>28602260
An "anchor" in Xi jinpings pocket

>>28602416
Julius and Augustus Caesar were the first people in history to find out that deflation is bad for an economy. If they were nose tribe members or not I'll leave up to you and your choice of conspiracy theories. >>28602332

>>28602376
It will get expensive, until a point. Bitcoin needs to constantly evolve against new issues (quantum resistance, scaling, ...) which means the network isn't as timeless as simple "digital gold" everyone keeps repeating to themselves.
It's just the gold rush all over again. Everyone assumes that everyone else will be "obligated" to buy bitcoin, but the truth is that most cryptocurrencies are better than btc even as a store of value or potential for growth, especially the one with on-chain governance and actually decentralized consensus.

>>28602499
It's politically interesting for sure, with China controlling mining and the US government controlling most of the supply.

>>28602924
Those issues are real, but we have a few more years until those they become overbearing and force the big crash. Until then more money will flow into BTC.

>>28602924
Gold is also a little bit different from bitcoin. Gold is inflationary as in 90% of the gold in existence was mined in the last 70 years and we now have 138,000 metric tons of gold in existence. In 2100 it is expected to be 1,150,000 metric tons of gold in existence. That means the inflation rate of gold is about 2.0% a year. Bitcoin has an inherent deflation rate of people losing their wallets over time.

Bitcoin can also change their chain over time however every time it was attempted the concensus was never reached and instead it split into different forks which damaged the brand.

>>28603461
I don't think BTC will crash due to those issues. It's going to be a legitimate store of value. It's just not going to be actually used in the active economy. Just like gold isn't.

>>28602924
Finally a non retard. Absolutely correct and that’s when the Bitcoin deflation crash will happen. It’s a proof of concept, but after only ten years it’s already starting to look archaic. The fact that now celebrities and large institutions are starting to fomo in is a signal. Not a sell now signal like everyone is saying. Normies are always late to the game. It’s simply too late for the average person to strike it rich with Bitcoin. Might as well start investing in the infrastructure now. Pick a token that hasn’t exploded yet and that has potential to be extremely useful, Bitcoin is a dead man walking at this point, it’s just that nobody knows when

>>28598012
Because then people won't use it, just hold forever.

>>28603713
It doesn't really matter if gold is a little bit inflationary. People are not forced to buy bitcoin to store value, it's that simple. Endless flow of money is not possible and market will be adjusted at some point.
>>28603461
>>28603772
You can definitely make money out of btc for the next 5 years or more, and as long as fiat will be alive. Btc is a way better store of value than fiat and will be the default choice for all tech illiterate people coming into the crypto space. But all of this are just reason why we should be aware at some point, a correction will happen. The market cap of bitcoin will only be as valuable as its utility. Being a first mover is irrelevant when nobody is "required" to buy it. It's not like eth which can at least boast about network compatibility or interoperable dapps ecosystem.

>>28602376
>Nobody is going to care about something that costs millions of dollars for one single token
damn i guess it's a good thing you can divide it in to 100 million pieces so 1 sat = 1 cent and people can deal with sats.
>they can use shitcoins with better utility
"muh utility" has been tried to convince people to switch to thousands of shitcoins but Bitcoin is still the king. When will you people realize that the "utility" with Bitcoin is increasing the purchasing power of your savings? we can already send thousands of payments instantly with Visa/ Paypal etc, another instant payment system is not what we need. Bitcoin exists because the base layer of money is controlled by a central party who must be trusted to manage it well. Bitcoins utility is that it's not centrally controlled, and it's deflationary by design in & that is unable to be changed.

if you think the reason gold has value is niggers can wear it around their necks then you're actually retarded. Gold has been humanities monetary base layer for 6000 years because the supply of it inflates very slowly, and it can't be created at will by power hungry midwit bureaucrats. Gold does have it's flaws, like how it's hard to easily split up & re combine at will, it cant be verified instantly and because its hard to transport it's prone to centralization.

>my iq is in the 130s
if you're so smart why are you not rich?
t. 144 iq topwit

>>28603713
Also, notice that lots of crypto are already deflationary, but additionally include set of utilities that might actually force people into the platforms, which will be reflected in the price.

>>28598178
If you look at the criticism section of the bitcoin entry on wikipedia everyone of the criticizers is a kike except two.
>Bitcoin, along with other cryptocurrencies, has been described as an economic bubble by at least eight Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences laureates at various times, including Robert Shiller on 1 March 2014, Joseph Stiglitz on 29 November 2017,[227] and Richard Thaler on 21 December 2017. On 29 January 2018, a noted Keynesian economist Paul Krugman has described bitcoin as "a bubble wrapped in techno-mysticism inside a cocoon of libertarian ideology",on 2 February 2018, professor Nouriel Roubini of New York University has called bitcoin the "mother of all bubbles",and on 27 April 2018, a University of Chicago economist James Heckman has compared it to the 17th-century tulip mania.
>On 4 December 2013, Alan Greenspan referred to it as a "bubble" as did George Soros on 25 January 2018.Warren Buffett called bitcoin a "mirage" on 13 March 2014
>In April 2013, Eric Posner, a law professor at the University of Chicago, stated that "a real Ponzi scheme takes fraud; bitcoin, by contrast, seems more like a collective delusion."
>Robert Shiller
kike
>Joseph Stiglitz
kike
>Paul Krugman
kike
>Richard Thaler
kike
>Nouriel Roubini
kike
>Alan Greenspan
kike
>George Soros
kike
>Eric Posner
kike

>>28598840
this is the real message economists don't want to say outloud
the current system is inherently pyramidal, with people forced to work so others can do nothing
you don't have to be a commie or even a socialist to recognize without dumbasses consooming, there's no trillion dollar brands, no ad agencies, no sales tax funding cushy intellectual jobs, and so on
even amongst people who consider some fort of ubi in the wake of automation, bitcoin is deeply unsettling. because a future where lower classes are self-sufficient is a future where these previous people don't enjoy a privileged social status anymore
many bitcoin haters aren't evil or stupid. they are just unaware of their bias

>>28604405
>a real Ponzi scheme takes fraud; bitcoin, by contrast, seems more like a collective delusion.
That's exactly correct. You're one ignorant /pol/tard.

>>28602376
Do you know what a satoshi is

>>28604339
We'll see it's not so clear cut yet. There haven't been any utility projects that actually provide utility yet. Bitcoin actually proved itself as a store of value so far and Monero is actually used used to buy drugs and child porn so these have their real uses.

It's entirely possible that they will get sidelined in the future, true. But there is no real proof that the market is going to go that way.

Far all we know utility tokens could be considered securities by governments eventually like XRP and be taken down/banned.

(((>>28604489)))

>>28604405
>Critized by Krugman
That means it's a success and everyone should buy.

>>28604489

culture is collective delusion
popularity is a collective delusion
the fact that human life is deemed valuable
the overarching and archaic systems of law and order

all for the definition

your argument is bad and you should kill yourself because you're a fucking moron

>>28604575
ethereum have self evident utility. this fud is so dumb.

>>28602332
>It's a terrible situation.
quality of life in japan only improved from 1990 to 2020. even at the worst of the 90s, luxury shopping was steadily progressing. to this day japan is the second country with the highest concentration of millionaires
in the same time period, quality of life in france significantly decreased. the average citizen is poorer than ever, to the point lower class retirees who worked 40+ years go to food banks to survive
what metrics do you base your opinion on? wikipedia numbers? try living in different countries and interacting with the people there

>>28598121
> it's been months
> Biden
It's February. No it has not been "months."

>>28604339
200 IQ take

Aave alone justifies Ethereum.

>>28604253
You’re missing my entire point. Bitcoin will be consolidated to the point by institutions that it becomes functionally worthless. And you’re correct that Bitcoin still is, and will be king for a long time. But eventually the mining will dry up, banks and governments will own 99% of all Bitcoin and its purpose will be defeated. When centralized entities own the base majority of a decentralized asset, then it’s no longer really decentralized is it? At that point they get to decide how much it’s worth and who gets what. Gold used to be owned by many people around the world, kingdoms, villages, empires, etc. now most of it sits in vaults with access for only a handful of people through conquest. The same thing will happen with Bitcoin, except, as I said, it’s literally just a number on a computer, with absolutely no function. Ironically it will become the ultimate fiat currency. This won’t happen in our lifetimes, so yes there is still plenty of money to be made in Bitcoin right now. In two hundred years nobody will give two shits about Bitcoin because it will be so far surpassed that it’s price will be meaningless

>>28598267
So you're saying it puts less strain on the environment and discourages consumerism? Sounds antisemitic.

>>28604780
Indeed. Japan's middle class has done extremely well in the last 30 years. The living standard is higher than most western countries. Japan is constant thorn in the side of the Jewish controlled financial system, that's why they take every chance they get to bad mouth it.

>>28601601
Why is it valued more than silver?

>>28604405
>Robert Shiller

>>28604575
You could lack some foresight about what the future might look like. People don't just need to store value, they also want it to be protected (reversible Tx for e-shops, or identity-backed banks) and need it to be tradable in trustless ways. Most Bitcoins owners right now have to go through centralized banks and exchanges, which is an increased source of risk (MtGox can happen all over again). It will take time, but people will have to build trust and game-theory and dapps for decentralized banks and governments to be ready for adoption.
Also, notice that all platforms with turing complete VMs are able to support anonymous transactions (and even more complicated anonymous smart-contracts). There are already some working examples in ethereum and tezos. Monero isn't special in this regard.

>>28605155
Mostly the political control since Japan open its country to the uncontrolled migration of millions yet.

>>28604970
ok that is some galaxybrain FUD
>Banks, governments & institutions are going to buy up as much Bitcoin as they can, aiming for it all
>this is somehow bearish
this scenario would mean
>everyone sees Bitcoin legitimized as THE global standard of wealth preservation
>federal reserves back their currencies with Bitcoin or else their currencies would be deemed worthless by the masses
>everyone's retirement accounts automatically buy Bitcoin with some of their monthly contributions
>any cross border payment is done via Bitcoin as no one wants to accept garbage fiat.
>literally the entire world economy runs on a base layer of Bitcoin
>Bitcoin's demand is global, rising with global productivity
>Bitcoins supply is finite
the logical conclusion is Bitcoins price movements would mirror Global productivity (real productivity, not fake fiat statistics) after stabilizing at millions of dollars per coin (1 sat = 1 dollar perhaps)

>your grandchildren will listen in wonder as you tell them people used to own entire coins
>this wonder will turn to contempt as you tell them you has this opportunity but passed on it even as you watched the Who's Who of Wall St & Silicon valley all proclaim that this is the future.

>>28605155
>>28604780
check this thread someone did on the japanese economy and how (((central bankers))) crashed it on purpose. real interesting
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1360204951327186947.html

>>28605473
I suppose it could go either way. Nobody really knows for sure. Personally I think technology moves so fast that Bitcoin will be left in the dust, but sure, your scenario is equally possible. I’m more interested in selling shovels than mining for gold, but do what you think is best. Being the first to do something is always a double edged sword

>>28599332
>pic
Took me a second.. fucking KEK

>>28604688
This but unironically

>>28604796
he made that 2k promise on the campaign trail retard

>>28604780
>try living in different countries and interacting with the people there
I used Japan because I'm familiar with that country as I'm currently living here. I'm originally from Western Europe.

And yes don't worry I have a lot of sources to back my claims up. Some of them are in Japanese but I can translate them if you want. I'll send you some English ones first and you can ask for more if you're interested.

Pic-related shows the effects of deflation on the housing market. Houses are continuously getting cheaper and rent is getting lower. This means people with a mortgage have their assets become worth less over time so young people don't buy houses anymore. This is true for a lot of things in Japan but it actually affects old retired people the most. My in-laws own a tokyo plot of land and it is slowly losing its value and thus eating their retirement fund.

Infrastructure is also struggling as certain parts of cities are started to be abandoned as lots of small businesses are going out of business as it's too expensive to pay for workers and diminishing sales as yen keeps appreciating and everyone and their mom is saving their cash (including even me so I can't pretend to be a saint). There are sections within tokyo that are completely boarded up and abandoned like a ghost town but within a large city. It's very weird and unique to Japan. It's very clearly a past economic giant in decline.

Last but not least there's a massive labor shortage in Japan due to a shrinking population. But wages keep declining in spite of that due to deflation. As you can see here in this graph Japanese wages have gone down 3% yearly for almost 10 years now. There's even a term for it. Like in the west you get a "promotion" of 3% raise to keep up with inflation. In Japan you get a "raise" of 3% less compensation to keep up with deflation.

https://i.imgur.com/2eJTsjT.png

>>28605905
He has not been president for "months" if you've been paying attention.

>>28605992
cope. it has been a month though and instead of them sending you your gibs they arguing over twitter screenshots of drumpft lol.

>>28605155
>Japan's middle class has done extremely well in the last 30 years
I really wish this was true. Sadly that isn't really the case. Wages are almost 40% lower than what they were in the 1990s. Stress and suicide is at their peak and crime rates are increasing (but this is cultural due to urban culture catching on I think).

Jobs also aren't as secure as they used to be. Contracts are usually 0 hours so your boss isn't obliged to pay you out. Usually people nowadays get paid part-time wages for full time work. They just do "unpaid-overtime" that corresponds with full time work while not actually working full time.

>>28605548
The Japanese economy didn't really crash. It's just that the Yen keeps appreciating in value even though the government is printing as much yen as possible. It just can't seem to keep appreciating for some reason we don't know. We have been printing money since the 1990s. There is 1000x more yen in circulation in 2021 compared to 1995 yet yen in 2021 is worth almost the same (slightly more) in 2021 compared to 1995.

Also in 1980 1 gram of gold was worth 6500 yen. In 2021 1 gram of gold is worth 6300 yen. So yes even though we now have 1000x more yen than in 1980. Yen is worth more in gold now than in 1980.

We have no idea how this is happening and it's fucking up Japanese quality of life. The LDP would fucking KILL to have hyperinflation happening to the country. That would be a massive improvement for everyone around compared to 30 years of life destroying debt entraping deflation we've experienced so far.

>>28605937

>I used Japan because I'm familiar with that country as I'm currently living here.

>And yes don't worry I have a lot of sources to back my claims up.

>I can translate them if you want.

>I have a girlfriend.

>My in-laws own a tokyo plot of land and it is slowly losing its value and thus eating their retirement fund.

>There are sections within tokyo that are completely boarded up and abandoned like a ghost town but within a large city. It's very weird and unique to Japan.

>In the west you get a "promotion" of 3% raise to keep up with inflation. In Japan you get a "raise" of 3% less compensation to keep up with deflation.

Why is it that everything you say comes out like your brain is set on ULTRA retard mode?

>>28606505
I have no idea what you mean with this.

>>28598012
Because those who got in early (mostly CIS white incels) are hoarding most of the supply, while those who got into it later (women, people of color, lgbtq BIPOC non binary etc) get only breadcrumbs

BTC is yet another example of systemic racism that favors cis white men based on colonial power structures

this could be solved if we could print more bitcoins and distribute them fairly

>>28606601

Oh, let's start by verifying that first claim shall we — "I live in Japan."

Please post, right now, in this thread >>12119484 with your JP flag and text that reads: "this post is potentially evidence that suggests this poster is physically located in Japan #bizIDgoeshere#."

I'll be waiting.

>>28606496

Why do you spread these lies?

>>28606505
>Why is it that everything you say comes out like your brain is set on ULTRA retard mode?

I think you're replying to a spam/propaganda bot.

>>28607140
That's the last 20 years. Compare 1980 vs 2021 like I said. Reminder that the total amount of Yen in 2021 is more than 1000x the amount of yen in 1980. Yet 1 gram of gold was 6500 yen in 1980 compared to 6300 yen in 2021.

Still Waiting - SUM 41

>>28598012
1) mining stability: Miners need reward. Fees, especially from 1 mb blocks are not enough to play miners.
2) a deflationary currency is bad for the overall market. No-one likes to spend today, cause tomorrow it would buy more. This is called a deflationary spiral.

-> look how Monero has solved this issue.

>>28598012
It discourages spending and consoomerism.

>>28598012
Economists seethe because they say deflationary currencies encourage people to not consoom product. They say that most people will think: "Why spend or invest in anything when I know my money will be worth more over time, ill just HODL.".

Somewhat disappointing.

FUCK KIKES
FUCK NIGGERS
FUCK TRANNYS
FUCK JANNIES

GAS
GAS
GAS

i just trade this shit it can go to a million or 0 i still make money
i dont have to waste my time and energy pining about this faggy shit lmao

>>28598012
it isn't deflationary, it will be as deflationary as stock shares after 2060

>>28607324
>>28605937
All I'm seeing here is that the '80s bubble was so extreme that it's taken the Japanese economy decades to return to normal after the crash.

>>28605992
He isn’t actually president even

>>28609231
Up until 2001 (21 years since 1980) Yen kept appreciating against gold. This isn't an economic crash it's almost the opposite. Yen became worth too much despite being printed.

Look at the top left it's gold price in JPY. So if it goes down it means Yen is worth MORE. You can buy more gold with your yen.

There is now 1000x as much Yen in circulation as in 1980. Yet you can STILL buy more gold with your 2021 yen than in 1980 (1980 was the peak of japanese economy). This doesn't make sense right?

Economists still have no answer to this by the way. Japan has been trying to achieve inflation for 30 years but it just doesn't happen. Yen keeps deflating constantly despite all efforts of the government to try and print as much yen as possible. It goes counter intuitive to what /biz/ believes about inflation/deflation and it ruined quality of life here.

>>28601950
Keynesian economics is kikery

>>28598121
Fucking knew Biden was a jeet

>>28609269
This. The dude sounds like a rambling old grandpa that needs to take a nap. No way is a guy like this actually in charge.

>>28604405
Buffet is a synthetic jew at this point

The feds idea of good monetary policy is keep inflation(through printing and devaluing of currency) but not too much inflation. They don't want you holding cash, they want you spending it. Nobody ever got richer by holding large amounts of liquid cash because you only lose buying power.

They are scared of Bitcoin because 1. they can't control it 2. They can't force you to spend it and 3. They would rather you put it into stocks/bonds/real estate so those nigger boomers and hook nosed bankers can further line their pockets with rising asset prices.

Its a house of cards and crypto is rocking the table so they(the fed, central banks) dont like that.

>>28598012
IF TOMORROW BTC IS 48K INSTEAD OF 47K WOULD YOU SPEND IT TO BUY A BED?
YOU WOULD JUST SLEEP ON THE FLOOR
>the absolute state of academic economists

>>28604405
>shiller
Nice try Robert shill

>>28598012
would you spend a hundred million on pizza?

>>28600810
This is baby brained thinking.

1. Supply will always dwindle due to lost addresses.
2. "price" will always go up due to the fed printing money

The price of Bitcoin will become more stable similar to stocks, the movements will be tiny.

Bitcoin is no longer "going up", its just more money being printed and thus you need more of it to buy the same amount.

>>28606888
Wasted trips.

>>28598012
It’s called a Ponzi scheme
Get in early and wealth transfer to you
Get in late and wealth transfers to them
(((Institutions)))
Think about it
BTC is tainted, hijacked, a shell of what was formerly possible

>>28610454
The model isn’t perfect, it makes some assumptions, such as that every single consumer is not a fucking retard. People like you are the reason why it isn’t perfect.

>>28598267
fuck kike driven consumerism

>>28598840
You don't have to consoom you fucking retards. It encourages you to invest it back in the economy in some form instead of putting it under your mattress. If you don't understand why low, stable inflation is the goal of monetary policy there is no helping you.

>>28598389
but what even is the actual value of a bitcoin? has it ever even had measurable value without using fiat money as the determinator?

>>28611373
before making any assumption
STOP FUCKING WITH MY WEALTH
then we can discuss

>>28604461
Based. Society is a fucking pyramid scheme and it's about time we overthrow it. Everyone should work for their money. Our world is fucked. The ones that get their hands on debt (e.g. fiat) first, enslave the ones that can not get any more debt or that do not hold debt at all, because their power in the system is hard capped due to which social class they were born into. A deflationary asset is only bad because it exposes the scam that this pyramid scheme relies on, namely the "economic growth" not really being growth, but simply being debt, that explodes in the faces of the rich when people dont spend their money and are self sufficient citizens that own a piece of digital real estate.

>>28598012
"Experts" (aka Jews) don't like currencies they can't inflate, manipulate, and profit off of. Bitcoin being limited to 21 million units infuriates people who want to manipulate the currency.

>>28599724
>what do you do when 1 satoshi is worth 10 days worth of food?
There are theoretical plans to make Bitcoin further divisible if needed.
Instead of Bitcoin being able to be divided to something like .000000000001 being the smallest unit, they might make it so that .0000000000000000000000000000001 is the smallest unit.
Also, it seems unlikely to be a problem if Bitcoin isn't used as an everyday currency (which doesn't seem likely) but Bitcoin is used more as a store of value for money transfer and storage (seems likelier)

>>28612934
this
printing more money is bad cause cantillon effect increases inequality
cantillionaires get richer by leeching on people's work, just because they have access to negative interest rate money, they get more money and they get it first, and than they go buy assets and we see house price skyrocketing or overvalued stocks
why do you think billionaires keep increasing their wealth at an accelerating speed?
cause they leverage on debt, and when they go bust they also get a bailout instead of going to zero and to jail
cause instead of improving their corporations, they buy back stocks with debt, and then they pay big dividends, and when the corporation goes in crisis, they run to the government asking for free money
if you are the top, you don't even need to work, you can just be the renter of the economy
and central banks are starting to play more and more as the absolute bosses
they do whatever the fuck they want with impunity
this ends now
BUY BITCOIN

>>28613661
cantillion effect is about the prioritization of access to the money, not printing of money. why do you think that central banks are so hyped about cbdcs and digital fiat? it's going to massively increase the monetary velocity and kill off the need for banks to distribute the money.

Because something that you can't get a FEEL of in your hand means it doesn't exist. Cut of the internet and you literally lost everything crypto wise. But most retards around here still dream about it becoming the NORM which will never happen haha

>>28601991
So what you're saying is BTC has an infinite supply?

What if BTC never dips anymore? All the big players are buying right now. To all normies, dont sell!!!

>>28598267
it’s about taxes

>>28613763
>why do you think that central banks are so hyped about cbdcs and digital fiat?
so they can steal your wealth directly
so that you are not allowed to save
because they will implement (on top of the inflation) an extra punishment for holding cbdc on your wallet without spending, they will basically burn some of your coins over time (extra inflation)
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-10/ecb-s-panetta-says-digital-euro-may-come-with-a-penalty-clause
THIS WILL CAUSE MASSIVE ASSET HYPERINFLATION
BECAUSE HEY, IF MY MONEY KEEPS BLEEDING I BETTER BUY SOME ASSETS, EVEN I DON'T FUCKING NEED THEM
they should just stop fucking with economic incentives, they are doing a terrible job and they should just let price discovery to happen again, let corporations fail, bring a bit of sanity and justice back to this world

>>28602291
>so miners can choose not to process your transaction if you don’t offer a high enough fee. >This could lead to an insecure blockchain and eventually collapse.
no, this is retarded
everybody can be a miner
if you don't take the fees someone else will

>>28614086
BTC has the potential to overthrow gold (due to asteroid mining), but it's just x10 from its current mcap. Very low reward and higly risky considering upgrading the network from PoW to PoS can go wrong in many wyas, and each other upgrade for quantum resistance, and scaling will increase that risk.
Lots of crypto can easily do x1000 and you can actually fun stuff with them.

>>28604688

>>28614349
nope, central bankers are based. fiat is worthless trash and idiots need the extra push.

>>28613661
Based and truthpilled and not a single polcel buzzword. I am proud of some of you boys.

>>28614668
central bankers are morons
people cannot even afford housing anymore, asset prices already don't make any fucking sense and the parasites of the economy, the ones at the top, keep increasing as a result
how is this good for the people?
having a fiat currency bleeding force you to wage cuck, produce and consoom more, and that's NOT a good thing if in the end you cannot even afford to pay a house
so you will be force to wage cuck until you are 80y old, pay taxes for a pension you will never see, live in the pod and eat ze bugs
because "muh it's good for the economy"
NO THANKS
YOU CAN FUCK OFF

>>28613661
Dont forget how inflation of reserve currencies creates even more harm to the world and endebts even more people than just the wagies in the US. The beggar-thy-neighbour policy essentially hypothesises that the more inflation you have in a reserve currency, the more debt the weaker economic zones have to take on to be competetive with their exports. Reserve currency inflation is basically protectionism as well as impoverishment of the rest of the global economic players.

>>28598121
We have been bagholding since they removed the peg to gold in 71 nigger.

>>28598840

>>28615624
The thing is that the US Central Bank cartel was created in the 1910s, before that the US essentially had decentralized currencies with currencies that were printed to the demand that was locally available. Only after the creation of the Federal Reserve did things turn from alright to horrible.

>>28598012
>>28598267
Deflation is only "bad" when you have a crippled over-indebted economy like we do. If a REAL recession was allowed to happen where the debt gets deleveraged (and yes would cause a LOT of pain at this point), only then can a real recovery begin.

The mid 1800s leading up into the early 1900s was arguably the most prosperous time in American history. The Industrial Revolution could have only happened the way it did because of true free market capitalism.

Real wealth, real growth, this is when electric appliances started to become viable and the classic American dream came into focus. All of a sudden families could, for example, store perishable food at home for long periods of time in a magic box that kept things cold. Electric mixers, vacuum cleaners, fucking air conditioning, the 1880s through the 1920s must have been an AMAZING time to live through.

And this greatest period of expansion and progress was all DEFLATIONARY. Get fucked Keynes, turns out that lower prices are good and demand doesn't fall as long as your economy isn't based on fucking debt like today

>>28616118
Youre correct. It would be like saying that going off steroids is bad, because youre big and strong when using them, while completely ignoring the risks and the potential benefits of not being a steroid addicted balloned up, dysfunctional retard with bloat muscles.

>>28614668
btw, now that btc is sitting on corporate balance sheets, and corporations are not allowed to fail and they can get free bail outs and negative interest rate loans, basically btc is getting an extra pump from central banks
just imagine
mstr is all in btc
mstr issues unsecured senior convertible notes and goes 2X leveraged basically (free money)
morgan stanley buy 10% of mstr
morgan stanley can literally get free money from the fed (or create them out of thin air)
btc is literally the ultimate way to exploit this broken system
btc is literally getting free bailouts from central banks
for btc to pop, central banks have to stop printing and allow price discovery

>>28615206
wagecucking normies who don't buy assets 100% deserve their fate as mere cattle. consumers should be punished for holding liquidity to consume instead of reinvesting into the economy.
>>28616529
wow, asset holders will get money under this system?? i'm so shocked! that's the point!

>>28616529
>for btc to pop, central banks have to stop printing and allow price discovery
I mean, let's not get too retarded here. I own some and am long-term bullish, but even I can see that we're going into another speculative mania that will burst at some point. When it does, expect all the kikes to pile on and FUD the shit out of it with "I told you so" FT and bloomberg articles. Pay no mind, and keep holding.

If you wanna try to be a market timer that's on you to accept that risk. Everybody knows this cycle is gonna top somewhere, but nobody knows if it's gonna fall from 50k down to 20k, or whether it's gonna keep on shooting up to 200k before plummeting down to "only" 50k or something. Time horizon is everything

>>28616879
>consumers should be punished for holding liquidity to consume instead of reinvesting into the economy
fuck off, that's my wealth and i do whatever the fuck i want with it
if i hoard and i don't spend, how is that a problem for other 7 billion people? i do not fucking care! i do what i want?
if i work hard until 40y, and then i want to retire, why i cannot do it?
why i need to keep going with some bullshit job until 80y old that doesn't bring any real value to the world just because my wealth is debasing because central banks are redistributing it to the top?
it fucking makes no sense
it's just a way to enslave people in a stupid rat race, which is not good for the economy in any significant way and it's just DUMB
if i want to become richer, it's obvious i will reinvest the money, i will create a company, i will hire people, and i will do it for a profit, and i will do it accepting the risk of going bust
if there is no risk, i will just borrow free money, pay big dividends to my self, and then go slowly bankrupt, and if i'm some bank or corporation nobody ever goes to jail
they will just make me a fine that i can pay with new fresh free money

>>28617386
stop looking at the 4y cycle
that's just noise
some moment it grows to fast and it has to correct for the price to sustain
sometimes is severely undervalued
long term is up, because money are free

>>28617683
That's basically the same point I was making

>>28598267
Economist here. You're not wrong, but we're seeing currently none of that shit working. Masses of money are being printed, saving accounts are completely fucked at negative rates, and people STILL do not consume but put their money in "alternative" investments instead. And why wouldn't you, bonds are literally burning at this point. Behavioural economics kicked in.

2008 has killed trust in the system, and using classical economics to fix it makes the spiral worse. Until 10 years ago negative interest was considered impossible, yet here we are.

The GME disaster has only worsened trust into the system and shown how much inherent hate there is.

And that's why you should get out of stocks and traditional finance as soon as you fucking can.

>>28598012
I guess people haven't heard of long-term investments?

You know, you buy and don't sell within the week and let it slowly rise to the top?

>>28598012
its bad for a currency very good for store of value hedge asset

>>28618824
>Economist here. You're not wrong, but we're seeing currently none of that shit working. Masses of money are being printed, saving accounts are completely fucked at negative rates, and people STILL do not consume but put their money in "alternative" investments instead. And why wouldn't you, bonds are literally burning at this point. Behavioural economics kicked in.
>2008 has killed trust in the system, and using classical economics to fix it makes the spiral worse. Until 10 years ago negative interest was considered impossible, yet here we are.
this

>>28598012
Because that pizza you paid with BTC 10 years ago could buy you a house today.

>>28604405
It's almost as if the jews know more about money than a bunch of neckbeards.
Go figure.

>>28618824
>boomers are finished
Proof of scarcity is just so comfy. Everybody wants it, big and small actors combined.

>>28598073
Based

The USD really is a jew shitcoin.

>>28598267
Why do people need incentives to spend? My incentive is not starving.

>>28618824
based

>>28618824
>Economist here

>>28598121
fuuck and they keep dumping newly staked coins

Why can’t Bitcoin be an asset and a store of value while simultaneously being allowed to be traded between people? Might be a retarded take, but as we progress into a more digital world, wouldn’t people like to be in 100% control of their own assets by simply looking at their phone and deciding whether or not that Bitcoin they own can be spent on a Lambo or wrapped in ETH and then put into aave? I mean the whole point of decentralization is to give the everyday person with an internet connection the ability to take part in global markets. We’re at least 120 years away from the last Bitcoin ever being mined, based on that and the fact that it can be sent from x person to y person pretty fast in comparison to gold has to mean something. The most interesting part of this, is the fact that we have nothing we can compare this phenomenon to in all of history.

>>28598267
>he fell for muh hoarding meme
dimwit

It's bad for a currency because it disincentivises spending but they don't understand that btc isnt meant to be a currency, it's meant to be gold.

>>28598073
>USD is such a shitcoin, I always convert whenever I get an airdrop
Fucking based ideology anon.

>>28600424
equity stake giving rise to income stream

>>28617893
what a bad rainbow, if you don't think the spike in 2017/2018 was peak delusion then you are retarded, it's more like this.

>>28625353
Because if BTC keeps increasing in value cost of transaction fees are going to get ridiculous.

>>28598267
infinitely divisible nigger

It isn't
Things naturally get cheaper over time due to technology
Only those that can print and spend newly created money are angered and threatened by a currency that does not allow them to print and spend money while debasing everyone else's wealth.
Those threatened are governments, central banks, and fractional reserve banks. Especially the USA as the loss of reserve status for USD would be result in a collapse in the value of the USD, lower US living standards, and a large reduction in the ability of the US government to borrow (fund wars + buy votes with social welfare spend) and print money.

>>28626968
Custody banks will settle using instant transaction approved / rejected with existing Visa infrastructure. The custody banks can settle amongst themselves once per day.
BNY Mellon just announced custody of Bitcoin.
USD going bye bye

>>28598012
It is/ might be bad for the economy and normie no-coiners. But it’s good for people who hold crypto.
In other words, based.

>>28611975
unironically it gains much of its value from not being a fiat shitcoin and being segregated to their whole system and all this money printing funny business going on this past year

>>28604489
So called "collective delusions" are the basis of modern civilization (religion, morals, money)

You're all fucking wrong.

https://youtu.be/tF24WHumvIc?list=LL&t=942

>>28598012
G-guys im starting to think the Experts dont know what they are talking about

>>28598178
fpbp

>>28628016
He is right in the context of western debt based consoomer culture. But that in of itself is a giant ponzi that will eventually collapse. GDP can't continue growing forever. We will eventually some day need to figure out how to live sustainably, without ever-increasing populations. We will need to learn how to save our money and only spend it on things we truly need. That is the very long-term optimistic future in which a deflationary currency can thrive.

>>28598012
Our economy is based on debt. There is more debt in existence than money to pay it all back. So if people save money instead of borrowing new money into existence, others will go bankrupt. And that wouldn't be very beneficial to the system.

>>28628593
Capitalism needs growth aka profits in order to sustain itself. If firms aren't turning a profit then there's no reason to continue doing business. Queue the economic collapse. Funny enough, this is an inevitable process because the tendency of the rate of profit to fall. The solution here is clearly communism with its labor voucher system based on labor time; Not some utopian zero growth economy were people are forced to work in the confines of a deflationary currency just to maintain capitalism.

>>28599724
the retard

BTC is infinitely divisible, subs sats are traded now on LN

>>28629600
No. Rent seeking must be eliminated instead.

>>28610131
He's also old. He won't be here to see a truly crypto-adopted world. He did acknowledge the value of blockchain as a technology though. The question will be what BRK does after he and Munger are gone.

>>28629600
Economic growth and profits aren't the same thing. Economic growth means increasing profits from some previous period. If your profits today are the same as your profits this time last year, that would amount to 0% growth, and yet you still made a profit.

>>28609269
Shh... I know, I know...

>>28602924
I used to think some better coin will take over and yes it could.

But what do you mean by better.

BTC has legit more devs and people watching the codebase than any other coin.

Every other coin has had to I can do it all and bloat the mainchain out of existance.

BTC seems to have the reserve status cornered had has become the diamond dick hard-on of alll crypto and real currencies.

I don't see that going anywhere.

>>28618824
I understand getting out of traditional finance but why stocks anon? I understand if the current system collapses the USD value of stocks will plummet but won't their value be tied to the next form of currency instead? I believe stocks will always be a safe way to maintain and grow purchasing power but they won't always be backed by USD

itt people who read the bitcoin standard and think they are economists

>>28630027
>Economic growth and profits aren't the same thing. Economic growth means increasing profits
Do you ever take the time to listen to yourself?

>>28630258
>the communist doesn't know how to do basic arithmetic
typical

>>28630258
LMAO at the image you posted.
Which takes priority in the discovery of truth, logic or correlations? Keynesians use correlations to derive impossible "truths" such as that printing money can make a society richer.
A priori > a posteriori. Read Kant, cunt

>>28616118
Based Austrian economist

>>28630328
>points out the obvious
>proceeds to blabber about nothing

>>28630397
Read Marx, faggot

>>28630680
Do you have an argument or not? Profits != economic growth. You can have a sustainable economy without growth.

>>28604780
>to this day japan is the second country with the highest concentration of millionaires
Well its easy for them because 1 million Yen is worth only 10,000 dollars

>>28630680
I have read Marx.
He does not say anywhere that printing pieces of paper makes society wealthier. That is Keynes whose theories which although intellectually bankrupt and false were embraced by the warfare, welfare state politicians to justify their programmes.
"Explain to me how increase in paper pieces can possibly make a society richer. If that were the case, explain to me why is there still poverty in the world. Isn’t every Central Bank in the world capable of printing as much paper as they want? "
https://youtu.be/QJwmMu15Exc

>>28630680
>Read Marx, faggot
Oh, it's that type of retard. Disengaging

>>28616118
The US was able to industrialise precisely because it didn't follow true free market capitalism.
One of the first things the Americans did when they gained independence was to enact tariffs so they could build up their own industry.

>>28598073
wow i didn't expect to wake up and read something so absolutely based this am, but here we are.

Inflationary currency is what keeps poor people poor. A rich person tries to beat inflation by purchasing assets such has houses. Assets that they loan out to poor people who basically pay to do small daily maintenance for you.

Meanwhile poor people are too poor to buy anything that appreciates so little bit that they save slowly becomes worthless over time. It is a rigged system made up by jews, for the jews.

>>28630839
>>28630927
>semantic argument
>hurr do you have any arguments
>proceeds to post images without arguments
grow up
>You can have a sustainable economy without growth.
Prove it, according to mainstream economics a reduction in growth is a recession.

>>28630896
almost like I'm not a keynesian retard

https://users.wfu.edu/cottrell/eea97.pdf

>>28598012
Because then you dont buy stuff other than your basic needs. Because if you buy something for 1 btc, in one year you could buy 2 of those for the same 1 btc.
A bit of inflation is a smlal push for people to consume. And no, Im not talking about CONSOOOMING but actually about investing and making the economy doesnt tank.
People in /biz/ have really basic understanding of economics. We are all lucky for the fact that crypto is a cheatcode to wealth.

>>28631770
>hurr durr I'm going to keep babbling on without addressing your point
the smoothbrain marxist

>Prove it
Japan for the past three decades

>>28630144
Tokens won't be ready to replace conventional stocks, until they have appropriate KYC models (safety owernership based on human identity, or protection against social fraud). But I agree with most of what you said.

>>28631124
Tarrifs are as old as recorded history, anon

>>28632731
Tarrifs are not based on free market doctrines.

When should I buy into bitcoin? It seems like putting in 100 bucks every now and then like DCA seems ineffective considering the prices rises. Am I better of just putting lump sums right now?

>>28632523
Japan has no economical growth because it has a very high standard of living and it's population is hardcapped. China has 15 times as many inhabitants and extremely bad welfare and general wealth.
Growth is literally just how hard you can exploit poor people and your geography and natural resources, and its the easiest to exploit your own.

>>28632828
Whose doctrines?

When tariffs were near 25%, the US economy and population quality of life were the highest they've ever been.

Some murky free market ideals aren't substitute for nationhood. They're usually pushed by globalist apologists.

>>28633069
DCA is fine

Set your DCA on autopilot like it's one of your subscription services, and forget about it for 5 years

Thank me later

>>28632523
>Japan
>sustainable
oh no no no no no

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Recession

>>28633104
I wasn't asking for an explanation. I'm just showing an example of an economy that is sustaining itself without growing, which disproves the marxfag's claim that no growth necessarily leads to economic collapse.

>>28633250
Free market doctrine is usually pushed when the labour markets are saturated and wages are high. Capitalists dont care about culture, borders or anything of that sort, they want to extract as much value per dollar invested as possible.
But yeah, blame it on some pseudo-threat. Globalism is literally an abstraction, the key behind it is that capital wants to grow and it can not grow in a saturated market with high welfare and labour costs, so capitalists soften and weaken the laws.
Not globalists, not jews, not niggers, just plain old capitalists, whatever colour or shape they come from, and you're one of them, so get off of your high horse.

>>28598012
Bitcoin is gold.

>>28633511
Bro, no industrialised/first world nation is sustainable. Their entire existence depends and relies on the production capabilities of poorer economic zones.

>>28633547
>capitalists
So your boogeyman is better than mine?

>>28633660
That's a separate issue and has nothing to do with whether or not the economy grows. Pay attention to the conversation instead of reading two posts and going on an unrelated tangent.

>>28633690
Dude, how do you want to call people that have their capital working for them? Capital laborers? Liquidity providers? Doesnt sound snappy to me.

>>28633263
I was thinking of starting with a lump sum then doing DCA. Do I try to put in a good chunk first?

>>28633789
It's very much part of the discussion. Deflationary currencies do not work for industrialised nations in the long term, as they eventually have to export debt/inflation to keep the flow of goods into the country stable.

>>28620633
the nobel prize inflationary kike fears the basement btc hoarding anon

>>28633978
This is little more than a word salad.

>>28633965
If you can afford it then sure

>>28633865
Literally anyone with savings is in your estimation a capitalist. Anyone can own stock or real estate or CDs or savings accounts and earns on those assets, without having millions in the bank. The barrier and cost to entry is the lowest it ever has been. Your ideology ultimately guts the middle class...the average owners of capital

>>28598267
Why is growth good? Why is spending money on new iPhone every year good? Why us buying a bunch of plastic chink shit you don't need good? This a fallacious argument that assumes growth must be inherently good for society. It's not

>>28605078
topkek

>>28634168
It's a very clear assertion, what do you not understand? Did you never hear about the concept of a rich state leveraging their ability to gain access to debt/inflation in order to force their trading partners (exporting countries) to sell their export goods for less essentially? It's classic libertarian economic theory.

>>28633865
Yes I hate your kind with a passion too. You're pushing a feudalism agenda, probably learned in university. A middle class is what sets nations ahead and your agenda is and will kill the middle class.

>>28634490
Only capitalist say it's good for society.

>>28634303
>everyone that lives and works in extremely rich countries is in essence part of the capitalist class
No shit sherlock. I dont know why this is such a huge revelation to you, and I also do not know why you think this is an ideology or that I am gutting anyone? The people that are gutted in rich countries (generally western europe and north america) get gutted by inflation and the cantillion effect that basically inflates the assets of rich people in ever growing bubbles.

>>28634629
>It's a very clear assertion
>It's classic libertarian economic theory.
Yes. It's a word salad. It's unsubstantiated and unprovable. There is no historical precedence for those claims. Just mashing a bunch of words together to sound smart.

>>28598178
This, so you must wonder (((who))) it is bad for.

>>28634841
>Beggar-thy-neighbor policy, in international trade, an economic policy that benefits the country that implements it while harming that country's neighbours or trading partners. It usually takes the form of some kind of trade barrier imposed on the neighbours or trading partners or a devaluation of the domestic currency to gain competitive advantage over them.
I am aware that the people on this board are 30% retarded polcels so I dont expect much, but this is basic Adam Smith shit, economy 101 you fucking nigger

>>28634695
>>28634303
seethe harder dimwitted polcel faggot. You will never be a man.

Elite jews(130 IQ on average) got outsmarted by cypherpunk goyim(150 IQ on average) its sinple really

>>28635081
Ah yes, there is the common retort I'd expect by now from someone like you.

>>28635002
>>28635081
And this class is what's known as a pseud

>>28635520
>>28635267
bottomfeeding mongrels, most likely amerisharts. No arguments, just strawmen, deflection in the face of defeat and not to forget of course, the Dunning-Kruger tier self confidence and conviction.

Reminder that japan was destroyed by central banker jews because they were becoming too wealthy and powerful while remaining nationalistic, I expect China is next on their chopping block but will fail because Xi is too powerful

https://twitter.com/SaturnaliaSund1/status/1360204951327186947?s=19

>>28630110
>BTC seems to have the reserve status cornered
I think the security of bitcoin as a store of value is laughable for the following reasons:
- highly centralized ASIC technology. Only 2 manufacturers behind most of the hashrate (whatsminer and bitmain, both localized in china). Exponential hashrate growth also makes old generation unable to compete with new. Possible attack vector if more efficient techs are kept secret and used in a long range fork. https://elwoodam.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Cryptocurrency-Mining-Hardware.pdf
- 4 pools control the majority of the network (even less considering selfish mining https://www.cs.cornell.edu/~ie53/publications/btcProcFC.pdf ). While the insensitive to undermine your own hardware investment is low, attackers can hack server operators or gain access through social engineering. It's also possible the chinese gov decides to take over the network through national laws and censor transactions based on political motives.
- boomer codebase full of outdated design flaws and vulnerabilities ( https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Common_Vulnerabilities_and_Exposures#CVE-2013-2272 ). first gen approach not benefiting from code formal verification of wallet.
- requires dangerous upgrade to PoS in order to save itself, if miners let this happen, which defeats the point of owning supposedly "simple and timeless" tokens
- centralized leadership and no possible on-chain governance (without giving up on the "muh digital gold" marketing). most devs are on the same narrow social graph of boomers. doesn't even have that many devs since the tech is prehistorical and people will eventually get bored of it.
- no (zero) utility system. gold has real life utility which makes its value hard-bonded to the physical world, while the dollar provides a social structure for project realizations. Bitcoin has none making its insensitive to self-adapt dependent on centralized ownership
Bitcoin is the greatest collective delusion of all the time.

>>28598012
Deflation is better than inflation. I think bitcoin core does have deflation issues though.

The goal set out by bitcoin was to be a currency, that's what gave it it's value, just being "the thing where you put money in and it becomes more valueable" with the objective of becoming rich in fiat is in my opinion bad in the long term and will lead to a bubble burst as it is in that fasion a ponzi scheme where the people who get in early get money from people who get in later and eventually there will be a crash where someone loses their money.

Bitcoin core's high fees makes it's primary function as a currency unpractical, of course it also helps make the price go up, which is what a lot of people want.
High fees + deflation in my opinion will lead to the bitcoin bubble bursting.

Bitcoin cash is in my opinion a better crypto because the entire point of it was to get back to the roots as use as a decentralized p2p currency rather than the ponzi scheme that bitcoin has become. The lower fees give it value over bitcoin as a currency and the deflationary aspects of it won't have as much of penalty to the pragmatism of using it compared to bitcoin.

>>28635815
So why didn't the jews take china out 50 years ago? Take your meds /pol/

>>28635815
The documentary based on this was amazing.

>>>/wsg/3793656
https://i.4cdn.org/wsg/1613253775856.webm

>>28601678
>engineering brain

Gonna use that term from now on. Taking a circuitry class and the videos are some goofy engineer dude making bad jokes and being slightly autistic

>>28630110
>>28635888
Also, non-delegated PoS would create increasingly centralized distribution of voting power, while delegated PoS would requires all participants to stay up-to-date with current status of the network (regularly choosing the honest stake pools).
No option can save bitcoin imo.

>>28635888
Based. Qwei maximalism is the future.

>>28636460
How do all of your bullet points account for the fact the thing is 12 years old and growing exponentially in marketcap?

>>28636747
>shitcoins can't go up in value in USD.

>>28601678
Based

In the future planned obsolescence will be illegal because people won't tolerate shitty consumer goods, light bulbs will last 100 years like originally designed

>>28636747
People are running away from fiat. Bitcoin will keep growing for a long time until all non-trustless assets are poomped into crypto (~ x10 mcap in >10 years). Although it could crash sooner if it's unable to evolve against quantum adversaries (first experimental QC able to crack signature schemes are planed in 2024 https://www.ibm.com/blogs/research/2020/09/ibm-quantum-roadmap/ but I don't think IBM or google cares about btc anyway. It will just confirm the threat, or not).
Exponential growth simply doesn't hold forever.

>>28636460
>https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Common_Vulnerabilities_and_Exposures#CVE-2013-2272


You have missed the other half of the equation.

BTC incentives humans to turn on thier asics, computer RPi's to secure the network if the hash ever drops low, the highest possible hash earth can provide will be obtained by the longest chain.

Wether 4, 1, 2 or n groups control does not matter much.

Also BTC code bases has a lot of eyeballs watching it.

All bugs are shallow to many eyes.

I lived the through the 2013 upgrade, that had to be downgraded to deal with a bug in the patch.

There is a youtube video that goes through the real-time response to find a solution live, and it was super effective.

>>28629600
Dividends.

>>28630258
Do you ever take time to consider what you read?

>>28633104
> literally

>>28599317
underrated

Look at the docs and explanation of MetaWhale BTC (ticker: mwBTC) at merawhale.io
Dude explains the issues and came up with a way to even accelerate them and prifit. Actually burns BTC too. Its fucking wild and well under 1m marketcap. Never pumped, not even a few days ago when it launched.
There's also a gold one that stacks tokenized gold.

>>28635888
>- boomer codebase full of outdated design flaws and vulnerabilities ( https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Common_Vulnerabilities_and_Exposures#CVE-2013-2272 ). first gen approach not benefiting from code formal verification of wallet.
YOU FUCKING SUB-HUMAN SINGLE DIGIT IQ
bitcoin core is the most audited software in the fucking world you fucking clown
you literally have a 800 BILLION incentive to steal coins

>>28598012
ISLM model

>>28598073
fpbp

>>28637705
>Wether 4, 1, 2 or n groups control does not matter much
If a single mining group control bitcoin, it can revert (rewrite history) or censor transactions, which is bad,
>BTC code bases has a lot of eyeballs watching it
Many boomers don't lead to many higher security (most of them are in denial about the flawed fundamentals of the network anyway), Also there is no on-chain insensitive binding the most trusted devs to a staking hierarchy: basically, leadership of code consensus is inherently centralized and not bonded with the amount of bitcoin owned (a dev doesn't need to keep owning btc in order to participate in technical committees).
>>28639161
>most auditioned ponzi scheme
ok boomer. x3

>>28598012
massive amount of boomers and retards losing their wallet keys.

no, devs patch core ti different algo,

cpus are turned back on

centralised minor goes bankrupt.

>>28640487
Consensus on algo switch is hard to achieve, and it is a very dangerous operation, even more if repeated many times. Adaptive ASIC technology can also evolve to the point new printed circuits are deployed fast enough to attack bitcoin shortly after the transition. Not to mention, each algo switch gives ownership of the voting power to actors with no historical commitment to network security.

>>28641167
have you seen quark or the others that it was a feature to swap out hash algo's

You can do this as a feature.

It takes ages to retool and send out the Asics.

The database remains.

I remember reading a boomer article about crypto and one of their reasons against cryptocurrency was that it was made out of code and code can always be changed.

>>28598178
3pbp

The "experts" aren't wrong. Things like deflation and volatility are negative aspects of a freely traded currency that has increasing demand and limited supply. Deflation reduces spending because it increases the individual's perceived value of the currency, they would rather spend a "worse" money instead. Think about it, would you actually pay for some bullshit with your BTC or would you rather use your fiat? I have had many opportunities to pay for things with crypto and have chosen not to every single time because I feel that I can make a larger return holding on to the crypto than spending it. This is why bitcoin will have difficulty becoming a medium of exchange and I honestly doubt it ever will.

The whole "currency" label fucks up the conversation because Bitcoin should really be compared to something more like gold, you don't spend your gold you keep it. A long term appreciating asset that has short term volatility, but nobody cares because on a 20 year time scale you will make money. Why? because bitcoin will turn into a parking mechanism for the global economy and your BTC will effectively be a share of the world's parked money which will grow so long as the economy does.

Deflation may lead to short term stagnation but a truly free currency market should respond to create incentives for people to get their money out of BTC and invest back into the market. We don't have a truly free currency market since things like USD are manipulated constantly to hover around interest and inflation rates that some apes came up with, so when USD experiences deflation it's a problem because humans are pulling levers to create artificial economic conditions instead of the market.

>>28635888
There is more:
- non-viable deflationary model, impossibility to create any long-term game-theory insensitive for miners to secure the network without inflationary economics, which undermine the whole "scarcer than gold" argument.
- very negative ecological impact. turns boomers into greedy hodlers leaking their wealth to polluting actors with little to no eco-friendly responsibility
- boomers
- most boring coin, and makes people believes crypto is all about money and greed when there are so many fun things which can be done. being deflationary also means it will decrease quality of life until boomers are btfo'd

>>28641892
It's probably not viable for a global financial system considering the amount of research that can be done when the economical rewards are big enough.

>>28598012
oldfag lurkers, like me, approve of this thread, thanks and congrats, kek

>>28630110
You could have made this exact post about Myspace