/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>30013147
Stop asking questions, Goyim.

>>30013147
Make yourself valuable and expensive to replace and you’ll have more leverage.

Why doesn't every employer pay $1/year then?

Because there are more workers than jobs. That's what you get with infinite immigration and wahmen in the workforce.

FAGMAN all have agreements to not poach from eachother. Even coders are getting cucked

>>30013147
you lack social skills
be a man, grow up and ppl will be willing to negotiate with you
if you are a simple laborer - there are about 300k ppl just like you in a mile radius - you are not special by any means, twisting hands with the "power" of the union (read, the government, without it unions are nothing but a organized crime unit) is the lowest a scumbag can get
enjoy being a certified loser your whole life, being so stupid you wear your stupidity as a badge of honor, wagie

>>30014795
This, if the workplace is always shortstaffed and they can't find good people, you can be as good as gold if you do better work than the others.

The other part of leverage is money.
Money is freedom, and the more you save, the more you have.
The more easily you can walk away from the job.

It lessens the leverage that they can have over you, you will not be some poor schlub with no plan, hopefully

>>30013147
Because you American faggots don't believe in unions, you'd rather just slobber on the boss's knob and hope real hard that he doesn't downsize you

>>30013147
Its a buyers market for labor.

Even high skill/high time investment professions like medicine are starting to become saturated in the same way the legal profession has already become saturated. Data sci, comp sci, engineering and other 'lucrative' STEM fields are already going, or have gone, the same way. Math is probably one of the last good bets but I'm sure that'll go to.

/biz/ probably doesn't want to hear the FUD but we are likely heading slowly into a period of protracted secular decline like the one experienced in Europe between 1300 - 1700 where growth outstripped the economic base of society leading to chronic stagnation and contraction. Maybe economics is a meme and I wasted my life getting a degree in it or maybe Ricardo, Malthus, and Keynes were right.

Your leverage is not accepting the job that doesn’t pay what you want

>>30013147
Because your masters made you believe work was virtuous and unionization was unpatriotic.

>>30015497
>/biz/ probably doesn't want to hear the FUD but we are likely heading slowly into a period of protracted secular decline like the one experienced in Europe between 1300 - 1700 where growth outstripped the economic base of society leading to chronic stagnation and contraction.
Explain this to me. How can growth outstrip an economic base. Wasn’t 1300 - 1700 the so-called “Renaissance?”

>>30013147
Learn a skill and do beyond the bare minimum at work
Change jobs every 2-3 years for first 3 jobs
GG you win

>>30015750
The Renaissance and the Early Modern period were trash. The Late Middle-Ages were much better for the average man.

Wealth inequality and debt is the real reason.

If wealth was more equal, those with capital would not have as much more leverage compared to those without capital

>>30013147
cuz ur job is easy and the workers outnumber the jobs if u were in a skilled trade workers have tons of leverage

>>30015849
Also automation + worker outsourcing + offshore manufacturing, and I know it's a pol meme but immigrants have in fact increased the low-skilled labor supply

>>30015750
This is more than I can explain in a 4chan post but have a look at this graph. You'll see that the population of England here collapsed in the 1300s and didn't recover to medieval levels until the mid 1600s, over 350 years later. The renaissance was a cultural phenomenon that may actually have been the result of a stagnant economy with no avenues for capital investment other than art and other forms of (economically) unproductive investment.

Why this secular economic decline occurred is multifaceted. The popular notion is that it is the result of the 'Black Death' but in reality the deeper economic crisis predated the black death and is what caused the population to not rebound in a generation or two, but rather rebound over the course of over 350 years.

>>30015550
but your choice is starve or accept whatever they give you
the capitalist choice is make more profit or less profit

>>30013147
because our modern economy is corporatism, gone are the days you can pan for gold, industry has been regulated and monopolized

>>30016026
Also note the 'deadcat bounce' of the dip and rise prior to the total collapse around 1300. European populations were already collapsing prior to the arrival of the plague due to secular economic/demographic factors like population growth outstripping availability agricultural capacity and wealth growth outstripping investment avenues.

>>30015195
Sip

>>30016026
>>30016100
Thanks bro. Good stuff. We are definitely facing a similar problem of sorts now — too many dollars chasing too few productive assets.

>>30015849

>>30013147
Most people just don't have enough to offer. If it's a job that'll probably be automatable within the next 50 years, then you're fungible for all the other people interested in the job.

I'm a programmer and I think there's a high chance even the most basic programming jobs will be irreplaceable for a very long time. More advanced ones will probably remain in 2100 (barring AGI advancing much faster than most people anticipate).

Not saying you need to become a programmer, but you need some intelligence-dependent skill, else you're effectively an automaton widget to swap in and out, and always will be, and will become increasingly so over the next decades. If you were a business owner you'd recognize why that's the unavoidable reality of it.

>>30015550
Someone else will just do it for even less pay

Workers do have leverage with education, experience and wages. However workers are being DISENFRANCHISED by the minimum wage that takes away part of the negotiating power. If you do NOT have the education or experience then what do you have to do to compete against someone who does? Wages. But if the minimum wage is too high then they'll skip the less educated or less experienced person for another. But companies are still penny pinchers so they will then OUTSOURCE labor or lobby to IMPORT more labor. Outsourcing allows them to ostensibly pay less. Importing labor lets the supply of labor get to a point where they will find somebody who will have the education, experience and willingness to lower their wages.

>>30016026
Please give us more pills please.

>>30013147
Many years ago I ran a bar that did £500k a week. As soon as I left, it collapsed. I mean completely, and utterly collapsed. If it made £5k a week pre-Covid I'd be surprised.

I made it my business that everyone knew as soon as I left that business, it went to shit. Now I work as a consultant to much larger hospitality/drinks industry businesses, and I'm sure they know the story of what happened to the bar that pissed me off. Negotiations since have been very easy from my point of view.

You kinda have to make the leverage for yourself is what I'm saying.

>>30014854
fed bastards with their minimum wage keep me from maximized profits.

>>30013147
because they're useless fucks who can be easily replaced if they don't accept what's being offered you entitled sack of shit

and no, your hunger is not my problem, and if you claim that it is because you'll murder me and take my stuff, then I guess the really utilitarian thing to do would be to blow your fucking brains out before that happens, motherfucker

you people are an absolute waste of our limited resources, fucking blobs of biomass that would be better used as pig food or ground fertilizer

>>30013147
Supply and demand. More workers than jobs. You need employers more than they need you so they treat people like shit. Employeees have virtually nothing that an employers "needs". They want someone with skills? There are 1000 other people that have that. Welcome to the oligarchy economy

>>30013147
Because there are no unions.

Seething wagelsaves will dissagree tho

>>30013147
>what is skilled labour?

>>30014795
>>30015465
Lold hard
read this: >>30017049


>>30016925
>entitled
Imagine being a bootlicker. Ngmi. Cum munchers have no chance of retiring early. You need a man's mentality, not submissive bitch like characteristics

>>30016819
If you're really interested and want to jump in the deep end this is a really good read. But be warned it is primarily written for an academic economist/historian readership.

http://gesd.free.fr/brenner76.pdf

>>30013147
because the federal government broke up all the good unions and passed legislation that crippled the rest and half of states went even harder on it and passed right to work which basically precludes unions.

Guess what, people in right to work states make less than half as much. Even non-union people in union states make twice as much as them.

>>30017277
Yep. Unions are essential. As they have declined, so have middle class jobs. It is no wonder why big businesses hate/fear unions with a passion.

Reagan weakening unions + offshoring/automation/living labor in manufacturing becoming irrelevant in high-GDP service industries
It's by design so workers are afraid to lose their sole source of income and suck it up to their bosses. If workers had leverage, we would have a 15 hour workweek by now like Keynes predicted a century ago. The market probably wouldn't be as bullish though, but who cares when you have so much free time?

>>30017101
I don't need anyone's boots to shoot you you dumb motherfucker, you're not the only one who can bring guns to the table, and if violence is ultimately the only claim you have over my shit then you better be ready for all out war

>>30013147
I have negotiated multiple 10-20% raises over a decade with my current employer. It’s not hard. You just need a competing offer and you have to be willing to walk if they say no. If you stay after they shoot you down you are forever cucked. Also helps if you are actually valuable to the organization.

>>30017663
not how it works in most fields, dipshit.

I just negotiated up my starting salary by 5k more bc I have a masters degree. In non-stem, it pays to be more educated

>>30017501
When did I mention guns, redneck? The fuck?

>>30016518
learned to code when i was a teenager and kept on it til i was 25, 31 and working as a carpenter now. I know python, perl, php and nodejs, can i make it?

>>30016026
The vertical drop in population was the black death.

I took a job where they said I'd get a pay-review after a year. No review, never mentioned again. I assume this is normal, and I was just naive. I left that job, but for other reasons. I'll basically never ask for a pay raise again, I'll just get another job. Fixed.

>>30017126
>If you're really interested and want to jump in the deep end this is a really good read. But be warned it is primarily written for an academic economist/historian readership.
>http://gesd.free.fr/brenner76.pdf

Give me a tldr storytime

>>30013147
>Why do workers have zero leverage in negotiation?
hey faggot, you have 100% leverage: you can walk away and take your labor elsewhere and leave your employer with nothing.

>>30021269
HAHAHA
You lack a basic understanding of supply and demand

>>30016026
the renessaince was the romans fleeing constaninopole when the filthy sand niggers sacked it numbnuts

>>30016680
if you had a real education you wouldnt be gettin paid min wage

>>30019497
No longer accepted by many historians though most agree it was a major contributing factor.

>>30017101
Every job i've had in corporate finance takes at least 3/4 months to get up to speed. They don't want high turnover.

>>30022886
Even if you think you have leverage at that point in time (ignoring the asinine screening process which is even a thing due to the leverage they hold), it looks bad to flip jobs very fast and employers won't hire someone they think will just flake on them so in reality, employers still hold the leverage in these cases.
Employers also tend to pay a market rate that is a flat amount across most to all businesses and this gives even less leverage to employees since an employer can just be like "na, fuck you. Market rate is what you get. Have fun trying to find something better".
And this is with specific skillset jobs. Lower skilled jobs (majority of jobs) don't have this issue. Actually even some high skilled jobs (i.e. journeyman electrician work) have easily transferable skillset so basically it's easier for employers to just pick and choose from a hat.

>>30013147
If you have any skills that's in demand then you have leverage. If you're an amorphous warm body that just wants to repeat a small set of menial tasks for years, then you have no leverage.

>>30023466
>If you have any skills that's in demand then you have leverage.
Completely and utterly false considering 1000 other applicants have the same skillset or a better skillset. You aren't as needed as you think you are.

>>30017084
>>>30017277
>>30017343
>>30017492
Proud government union member here. What I love about my job is that there are no expectations beyond punching in and punching out at the same time. And if you're efficient, you can finish your responsibilities early and have free time to read or walk around. THIS is what work is supposed to be, not grinding out 10-12 hour workdays even on the weekends. As a union worker, I still have some dignity left.

>>30023661
>Completely and utterly false considering 1000 other applicants have the same skillset or a better skillset.

You might have the same skillset but it doesn't mean you have the same level of skill. A highly skilled manager, a developer, an artist, are all far more valuable than an equivalent with mediocre skills.

>>30013147
>Why do workers have zero leverage in negotiation?
Depends at what company you work at. Publix in Florida gives permanent employees a percent stake in the company to encourage you to work harder, thus growing the value of your assets. You will be able to rise in the ranks to become king wagie, and perhaps even own one a location yourself.

Because lack of class consciousness and socialism

Of course the likes of LeBron James or Tom Brady have zero leverage in negotiations. They make tens of millions because the team owners are just nice.

Why are leftists so fucking stupid?

>>30023706
Correction, work should be like the four-hour workday as anon >>30017492 championed, but in 2021 being a union member in the United States is worth every penny.

>>30023900
That's neat! Please, tell me more about your nihilistic economic theory.

Being good enough that multiple companies want your services that offers you more is the only leverage you can bring desu

>>30019323
Most jobs are simple programming where you will be alright if you know to to interpret and understand other people's code

>>30015497
I too have degrees in the field and believe we are headed into a Japan lost decade(s), rather than your scenario; USA may not exist in 300 years tbqh.

>>30015465
Unions are what keep safety standards high and prevent pajeet from flying your planes for 50c an hour.

>>30023706
You're kind of a lazy cunt about it but yeah, that's what work should be like. You're tasked to produce a set amount of value per day and once you finish with that you are done, either that or 8 hours.

A lot of places just want to squeeze as much as they can out of their workers

I made it years ago, i.e. achieved financial independence, but I did still applied for high paying easy jobs so I could get more working capital. The difference between now, when I don't need the job, vs before, when I was desperate, is insane. I got every job offer, even after negotiating 20% plus compensations, just by having a true zero-fucks given attitude

>>30013147
Because they accept the worker/employee paradigm, which is inherently authoritarian. They need to be told what to do, and will literally starve to death without daddy employer there to feed them.

There are more people alive now than ever in human history, but that is only because daddy employer is there to keep them alive. Give them some hard times and watch all these "worker" leeches starve to death.

>>30015195
>twisting hands with the "power" of the union (read, the government, without it unions are nothing but a organized crime unit) is the lowest a scumbag can get
This lol. I have to laugh when I have to see pathetic people praising unions. It's always pathetic people. Because that's what a union is.

Basically, you're fucking worthless, and a union is essentially a bunch of worthless people banding together trying to force the system to say that they're not worthless. It's hilarious.

>>30013147
>Why do workers have zero leverage in negotiation?
>Unless you're some kind of leet coder
Because they're completely replaceable, unlike the leet coder.

Just beeeeecome like the leet coder, you need to actually provide insane value to the company that trickles upwards to the decision makers to have leverage.

>>30017049
>Employeees
Did anyone else read this as a high pitched squeal?

>>30021948
>>30023661

You have clearly never held a job that paid more than min wage. Even in fucking government backed STEM jobs, knowing your value means the difference betwee getting the low end of the pay scale vs the upper cutoff.

>Be freshly minted PhD. applying to national labs
>See opening that so closely mirrors my thesis work it would be impossible to fill it better
>because I read all the papers in this field and know what people are working on.
>Get interview obviously
>They get to salary and try the "it will be the lower side of the postdoc scale"
>Literally tell them, "That's unacceptable"
>Literally tell them, "I am the only person in the last 3 years that would have these preferred qualifications, and we both know it. I know that if you posted a job with that upper end of pay available, it means you had to have a grant to fund it.
>I already have an offer from Molsen-Coors to do QC for the middle of the salary range anyway.

Now I have an offer for a much better paid postdoc at a national lab in a dirt cheap state, and I get to choose what I want to do.
>Because not only do I know when I'd be the only guy that can do what I do
>I know how to make sure the people I'm getting hired by know it, and know that I know it too.

>>30016509
>with a mere 2 mil youre in the top 94%.
No way in hell this is right. A house is a big city is about 1 mil. If you pay off your mortgage you arw top 80%? Wtf

>>30013147
Because open borders give your employer an unlimited pool of desperate workers willing to work all day for one shiny coin.

>>30026408
lmao you think people actually own 1mil houses?

>>30026010
Lol yeah

>>30014854
they would if they could kek

>>30026471
Why are they still coming here during a pandemic, while America is destabilizing?

>import millions of workers from poor countries
>outsource everything else
>"Why do workers have zero leverage in negotiation?"
lol

>>30027356
>>30016906
Why doesn't every employer pay minimum wage?

>>30013147
You will own nothing and like it!

>>30027577
You can thank Reagan for making it that easy to outsource believe it or not

>>30025400
This right here. It's all about your attitude which is directly correlated with your T levels (which are impacted by stress). Going into an interview / negotiation knowing you don't need the job changes your entire demeanor. It's hard to explain, but I can give an example. I once had a job offer for around 140k for a cybersecurity position for a finance firm. The job was slated to start 2 weeks out. During week 1 of the waiting period I decided to yolo apply for another job (same type of position) at a startup because I was bored. The startup called me back and asked me to interview same week (3 days later). Long story short I went in to that interview and absolutely crushed it (Had to meet with multiple VPs, they gave me a case study on coffee). the interview with the head VP went so well that they asked me how much I wanted to sign an offer. I told them I don't know, he said 130k I said ok. They put an offer in front of me at the end of the interview round which I didn't sign. I took it home, waited about 24-48 hours emailed the recruiter turned it down. The recruiter asked me why. I told them I had another offer, a competing one for 140k. The recruiter came back with a counter offer that was 30% higher with more equity. I accepted and told the first company to kick rocks.

TLDR: You need to get fuck you money. Or come into an interview from a position of fuck you. It changes things. This works women as well. Always have other options

>>30028097
you were confident because you already had an offer, and a decade of experience, which is why they interviewed you in the first place.
>just be confident bro

>>30013147
Because immigration, globalisation and Regan/Thatcher era Neo-Liberalism destroyed trade unions.

>>30023823

It's borderline slavery, even at the top though. I know someone who manages a high end store's department. They made decent bank, but not life changing. It's not worth the time they take from you. Life's too damn short to suffer.

escape the cycle if you can.