/biz/ - Business & Finance

fucking shit monaco is mooning without me better buy some

>>5367138

kill yourself pajeet, dont derail my thread

>mortgage
>evicted
>tfw you evict yourself from the house you own

>>5367131
>bought in at ATH
fucking moron, he deserves this death

>>5367106
You can't buy skill and knowledge. It's hard work. You are pathetic.

>>5367106
So glad this commie faggot is in ruins now.

>>5367131
Low IQ humans like this exist

so many gems on this retards twitter

>>5367131

Please tell me that this is shopped.

>>5367607

go check the twitter yourself :)

>>5367726

I don't want to, I am legit scared rn.

>>5367106
>>5367131
>>5367177
I thought this was a /pol/ tier troll screen shot. It's real?

please tell me he actually sold at the bottom

>>5368014
Not the absolute bottom but pretty close, lmfao

>>5368091

Are we going to the moon now?

kek

>>5368121
i think we have another dip to 12k

>>5367510
can't breath.

>>5368169
I wonder if he has 2 brain cells to rub together to realize he's one of the greediest mother fuckers on the planet to take out a mortgage with the hopes of Bitcoin skyrocketing in value

110% deserves it

>>5368169
Well, he sure isn't chasing wealth at this rate

>>5368169
>give up on this Marxism shit
>literally has never read Marx and thinks it's a lifestyle

>>5367835
https://twitter.com/ProudMoolie/status/944342068117295104
A nigger. He tweeted that because he wants to get donation from Normies

This pleases the Bogs

Always bet on the King.

>>5367106
I'm confused, so he's a degenerate crypto gambling marxist ?

>>5367106
>>5367131
>>5367177
>>5368169
Is that an antifa mask wearing cuck?

>>5367131

>"comrade"
>went all in at 19k+

What's his problem?

His funds are being redistributed to his fellow global citizens. He should be happy

>>5367835
Could be ayyyy heez just playin yooo, who cares though.

>>5368512
lol my brother did this comrade shit with me once. i have never felt worse for people who think this is in any way cool.

>>5368363
>proud cookie

I refuse to believe this is a real nigger

>>5368363
No, he actually did this and that's his attempt to save face. He's selling his expensive clothes on his Twitter to cover his losses.

>>5368320
It sort of is. Every person I know who takes Marxism seriously changes into a completely different person.

>>5368563
>>5368363
either way, i'm sure it'll get turned into a collage and spread as if it actually happened.

>>5368950
Why why why

>>5368950
Why do these imbeciles never HODL? Why do they sell when we know BTC literally bounces back every time?

>>5368950
how did he lose that much if he bought at 8k?

>>5368512
socialism isn't income redistribution, it's an economy organized in a way so workers get the full value of their work, if their not getting the full value, their labor is being exploited for profits.

>>5368701
>It sort of is.
Marxism isn't a lifestyle
.t marxist
unless you want to convince otherwise, [citation needed]

OP tweeter also resells yeezys, so he's a capitalist robot like the rest of us. But bad at it.

>>5369142
it bounces back until it doesnt
how deluded can you be

>>5369358
>that picture
The fuck is wrong with celebrating the money you earned with hard work?

>>5369358
If you're not getting full value for your work then you are literally retarded and deserve to be a slave

>>5369606
80% of capital is held by 0.01% of people.

>>5369684
So? Most people are lazy sacks of shit. And those numbers are insanely exaggerated (at least in developed countries).

>>5369684

Seems like those guys are enjoying the full value of their labor

>>5369608
I don't think you understand, the vast majority of the human population is exploited, unless most of your income is coming from simply owning things/having investments.

>>5369358
it also removes the ability to put a price on that value. the consequence of that isn't people "stealing your hard work"; the consequence is that everybody is poorer. shit's been tried before, it doesn't work. and nobody is trying to make it work outside of fantasy scenarios outside of their imaginations.

http://www.china.org.cn/china/features/content_16955209.htm

This is beautiful pottery guys

>>5369829
>I don't think you understand, the vast majority of the human population is exploited

Not really.

Most people have next to nothing to offer, and they are in extreme overabundance, so they can be replaced easily if they demand more money.

>>5368701
Nah, they were always cunts. They only ‘change’ because they find other cunts who don’t call them out on their bullshit and instead encourage it. The brainwashing and virtue signaling circle jerk is real. They have no real friends who tell them to stop being twats and their parents never loved them as people and shoved them in daycares and after school clubs growing up.

>>5368640
His name literally says proud moolie. That's nigger in Italian american.

>>5369358
>socialism isn't income redistribution, it's an economy organized in a way so workers get the full value of their work
idiot

>>5369867
Labor theory of value has nothing to do with price. Stop pretending you know anything about Marxism and actually go read Marx.

>>5369358
Fuck off you idiot. Socialisim kills with kindness. Government is for enforcing law and protecting the state and nothing else. Charity is where welfare and all that shit should come from. All Marxism is is giving the government more power over the individual. It is evil. Over my and over 52% (in the uk at least) of the people’s body’s. It will not happen and you are a fool. All social programs must go. This socialism-capitalist hybrid we have now is cancer and communism doesn’t work without the tech for Maxine’s to run things and replicators. We are 50+ Years from that so just stop before you give the globalists more power and we can never escape their control you gibbon! You are not the special generation to gain humanity it’s freedom. Your job is to stave off technocratic/socialist control at all costs. Do not get chipped, do not believe (((AI))) and stop with this Marxist bullshit! It is authoritarian and you are begging to have your freedoms taken away.
t. Actually smart and not part of your circle jerk populated by naïeve idealistic fools. (Typos are because I’m phone posting and I cba to check it). Stop being a twat, save your freedoms, keep the state at bay and go and have some kids in the hopes they can overcome TPTB as in the ancient bloodlines that have always ruled us that we can’t see. You are fighting the wrong fight. They are manipulating you.

>>5370316
You're going off of mainstream definition of socialism and not historical ones. Can you provide me any text by Marx saying anything alone of the lines of "giving the government more power over the individual"

>>5369358
Fuck capitalism, seriously. Under capitalism, the Jews are taking out their competition, the whites, by destroying white countries with no regrets or remorse. Fuck Capitalism.

Fuck Marksism too. But oven the capitalists first.

Then we go full fash.

>>5369867

>>5369358

Why do they deserve the full value of their work when the business owner is the one who took the majority of the risk in establishing the venture while the peons will escape unscathed if the business goes under?

>>5369358

>>5370289
let me guess, you haven't read any economic literature other than marxism. of course marx is going to tell you his theories are correct, except every real life attempt at it results in either oppressive dictatorships with overwhelming corruption or a failed state.

>>5370432
Fantastic picture anon, thanks for posting it

>>5369358

why do socialists hate white people so much?

>>5370432
why are commie memes such pseudo-intellectual unfunny shit, it's as if they don't have souls.

>>5367131
kek. harsh lesson

>>5370130
that's literally what it is, dumbass. the difference between capitalism and socialism, by their respective definitions, is just who owns the means of production

>>5370398
I knew crypto was getting invested with left winged kike cocksuckers. Been a nonstop flood since mid summer. The fact that people defend BTC over BCH was a sure sign.

>>5370316
Marx believed that communism would come about naturally. Communism isn’t anymore pro govt than Capitalism. Natural progression of things leads us to a society in which people trade locally and share out of an honest communitarian desire to help others in their community. Capitalism also supports monopolies that control the essentials. You need food? You have no farm? You have nowhere naturally to get food because we farmed all the land to dust? Well sorry bastard you’re buying nestle suck my dick.

>>5370461
Yes, being a business owner is stressful, the owners and the workers become unemployed if the business goes under. In socialism no one would be forced to sell their labor to secure their means of existence.

>>5370598
No schools of economics says their theory is right you buffoon, analogically there a certain lens to view the world.

>except every real life attempt at it results in either oppressive dictatorships with overwhelming corruption or a failed state.
Except socialist causes dwarfs the amount of "bad things" capitalist states have done, nuance dood go read a history book and stop trying argue morals when your side is the most evil of them all.

>>5370482
pic related

>>5370631
Those are liberals, not actual socialists (who understand idpol doesn't trump class)

>>5370680
I don't know why do /pol/tards never have any arguments?

>>5370905
>Capitalism also supports monopolies that control the essentials
what? are you mistaking your conspiracy theory delusions for reality?

>>5370398
Government needs to have power. “Power to the people” is a terrible fucking idea.

>>5371065
>muh capitalism
>muh socialism
>muh strawmen

>>5371065

>the owners and the workers become unemployed if the business goes under.

Yeah, and the workers with no skin in the game get to claim unemployment benefits and just go look for a job elsewhere.

Meanwhile the owner tied up a significant amount of capital in the business and now has a sizeable capital loss, possible bankruptcy and still needs to find a new job.

The only people who seriously advocate for socialism/communism are the absolute dregs of society who know they can't hack it in a capitalistic society unless they get handouts. Fucking subhuman scum.

He's doing the whole "haha I was only pretending to be retarded" thing now and lashing out at people for believeing him but not giving him gibs

HOLY FUCK WTF ARE YOU PAJEETS ARGUING ABOUT IN MY THREAD

WHOEVER THINKS SOCIALISM IS A GOOD IDEA IS A FUCKING RETARD AND NEEDS TO GRADUATE FROM COLLEGE AND ENTER THE REAL WORLD

EVERYONE KNOWS BASED CAPITALISM IS KING

>>5367106
>>5367131
>>5367177

Please tell me this is fucking real

>>5371065
>Except socialist causes dwarfs the amount of "bad things" capitalist states have done, nuance dood go read a history book and stop trying argue morals when your side is the most evil of them all.
what moral argument? marxism just doesn't work off of paper

>>5371065
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoWbm8zUG6Y

watch it, reevaluate your position against it, find a 'synthesis'. also don't even think about mentioning the sponsors: if capitalists can't argue for capitalism because they're biased, no one can argue his own opinion for the very same reason.

>>5370905
>Communism isn’t anymore pro govt than Capitalism.

This fucking guy.

Communism is so unbelievably unnatural that it can only be enforced with the help of a gigantic government.

>honest communitarian desire to help others in their community.

There is no community anymore thanks to your kind. Nobody really gives two shits if you live or die, because you're just another shifting face within this international hotel known as earth

>You need food? You have no farm? You have nowhere naturally to get food because we farmed all the land to dust? Well sorry bastard you’re buying nestle suck my dick.

Wow it's almost as if failed and useless people get weeded out of the gene pool. I think biology has a term for this

>>5370598
The bible is infallible though, because it's the word of God.

>>5367177
you are talking to a bot, anon

>>5368950

A positive position can never be a loss

>>5371150
Marxism doesn't say "government needs to have power" It implies political power should be held by people (the proletariat), and not 1% of the human population (the bourgeoisie).

>>5371200
Can you explain the strawman?

>>5371367
He's saying we shouldn't try socialism because bad things happen, I'm implying more bad things have happened in capitalism so taking the moral high ground is moot.

>marxism just doesn't work off of paper
Except it does, read "Towards a new socialism" by Paul Cockshott

>>5368950
I don't understand how he could have even possibly lost money, didn't it go pretty much straight up to 11k? I don't recall some sort of correction at 8600

>>5369829
>the vast majority of the human population is exploited

profit is not exploitation

please fucking kill yourself

>>5371374
Can you summarize the points of this video? I don't have have time to watch a 2 hour documentary.

>>5371550
>Except it does, read "Towards a new socialism" by Paul Cockshott
>marxism isn't just a quack job thoery, read this other theory on how it would actually work

>>5370432

the $4 production cost is subjective. The burger has no innate value, and to even suggest such demonstrates a complete lack of understanding in regards to the word 'innate'.

how do you place a value on expended human labour? or on time? you can't objectively, because objectively these abstract concepts have no dollar value, it must be placed on them extrinsically.

only morons and jews think communism will work. and the jews are correct: it does work, for their community, but while it is working for them, the goyim have their wealth siphoned off and get to enjoy a never spoken about genocide.

prove me wrong. you can't. good night you commie faggots.

>>5369358
>Menger used his “subjective theory of value” to arrive at one of the most powerful insights in economics: both sides gain from exchange. People will exchange something they value less for something they value more. Because both trading partners do this, both gain. This insight led him to see that middlemen are highly productive: they facilitate transactions that benefit those they buy from and those they sell to. Without the middlemen, these transactions either would not have taken place or would have been more costly.

look up marginalism, man. you're so dead wrong on everything.

>>5371680
Unpaid labor is the literal definition of exploitation
>please fucking kill yourself
please do

>>5371712
It's an empirical case for socialism, it's not a book about theories.

>>5371722
>how do you place a value on expended human labour? or on time?
With labor time, read cockshott.

>>5370289
I've read the Manifesto and Das Kapital. Don't you worry you Marx fanboy, his system will be dominant within a few generations when the slave caste has been created, from there, his people will rule with an iron fist and his legacy will forever live on.

>>5371690
it's a somewhat entertaining (if you're interested in the topic) recount of economic history and development of planned economies, so called mixed economies, and "free" markets from the stand point of clearly free market advocates.

I thought it might interest you to see the other side explain their position in a clear fashion, even if you do not agree. after all, hearing the other side is always good. even if it's just to be able to argue against them.

>>5371065
>everyone to the right of a literal globalist commie that wants to steal all of our gainz is muh hwite supreeemacist boogeyman
You have to go back

>>5369303
because he consider the 100k+ to be his, i never understood that, it's never your until you cashout. He's in at 8k and he's still positive

>ITT 19 century economic theory clashes with 20 century economic theory in the 21 century

>>5367106
I’m surprised OP found someone I follow on Twitter, I followed this dude cause I also resell sneakers and this guy is a fucking cancer on my feed, his political views are shit (commie), he comments on girl selfies with the same attempt, he tweets bullshit that makes him feel high on himself and he’s pretty much one of the only few people I willingly unfollowed cause I was tired of him being on my feed

typical nigger though

>commies on /biz/

thought id never see the day. what compelled you to come to this board?

>>5371820
>It's an empirical case for socialism
>em·pir·i·cal, adjective: based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic.
>observation or experience
I'd be more inclined to listen if you pointed to a functional marxist society and not another book on how it would work if marxist got off their asses and tried to put one together
the libertarians at least had the confidence to start their own city

>>5369358
>workers get the full value of their work
workers get nothing if the (((party leaders))) decide they get nothing. the jewish ruling class owns everything and everyone under communism.

>>5371862
erm, dude, marx's predictions didn't turn out right. the working class for instance is better off than ever before. marx's scientific socialism failed.

>>5369358
gtfo leftypol, what the fuck are you doing in /biz/? A cryptocurrency space, which is, ironically enough for you, based on libertarian ideas.

Btw, if you think "socialism" will give more to the worker, you're mistaken, every society that tried to do that actually fucked the workers in the ass. Capitalism is the most humanitarian system.

>>5369358
Might wanna drink bleach it'll cleanse yourself of communism

>>5372212
crypto can be repurposed as the ultimate redistribution tool without violence. there's no reason to exclude tankies if it means them redistributing their money to us.

>>5371862
lol

>>5371764
I know what marginalism is man, it's trash: http://reality.gn.apc.org/econ/jelle.pdf

>>5371879
Thanks for not being retarded, but I use to be a ancap so I don't have any interest in going backwards.

>>5372258
>crypto can be repurposed as the ultimate redistribution tool without violence.

no, it can't. the moment you have automatic redistribution, nobody uses your crap - and if you're trying to force them, guess what? that has been tried, but "it wasn't real socialism".

>>5372212
>>5372179
Nah anons, socialist governments in tandem with controlled (((central banks))) all over the world is totally the best way to go, not like that was the reason for crypto in the first place or anything. Any gommie on /biz/ is the most hypocritical, two-faced, hooman bean to date.

>>5372123
The reason is pretty obvious once you realize all of them are hypocrites.

>>5368363
https://twitter.com/eRiNdub

MILKIES

Somebody should tell him Bitcoin is a store of value

>>5371862
Marx predictions were wrong simply because on 19th century they knew shit about psychology.
What purses the man is not equality but freedom, and marx is completely opossed to it, not to say that if you try to be slighty better than someone else (which is human nature) you are already creating inequality, hell just by studying you are creating inequality.
And why the hell are cucks on this board, is it you Vitalik?

>>5372320
how do you get from being an ancap to being a socialist. I maybe understand the other way around, but I was a 14 year old idiot and nobody should call a 14 year old "commie" anything other than an idiot.

marginalism by the way does a way better job at explaining why a random hole I dug doesn't have any value to anyone than the labour theory of value, which you used to argue for exploitation. If not, I'd be happy to hear your take on it why the worker gets exploited when there's no surplus value.

>>5371886
>everyone to the left of the literal global capitalist that wants to steal all of our surplus value is muh' libtard/nigger/jewish boogeyman.
You have to go forward

>>5372179
wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat

>>5372123
>>5372212
Like most of you, ending this wagecuckery

>>5371418
This is so on point and he probably won't acknowledge any of this.

I'd buy you a beer any day.

>>5367106

>white fist
>neither one of them is white

should have used the yellow one desu

>>5367131

HAHAHAHAHAHHA It's over for this douchebag.

God, I hope it goes to zero.

>>5372438
>Marx predictions were wrong simply because on 19th century they knew shit about psychology.
>What purses the man is not equality but freedom
Wow it's almost like this guy Hegel or something said the same thing. How unfortunate that Marx could never meet this enlightened individual. Oh wait Hegel was his professor ROFLMAO fucking brainlet commie literally stole all the ideas from his teacher and everything he changed he made terribly worse.

>>5372123
that image must have a pretty loose definition of "work"

>>5372509
>dictatorship of proletarian
>almost always ended up with an actual dictator
Gee, I wonder why.

>>5372340
>Spanish flu
>Civil war
>WWI
Yeah sure, it must be teh gommunists fault.

>>5372212
Cryptocurrency bypasses banks and creates a global currency for means of trading goods. Its the ultimate lefty ideal. You should read up on anarcho communist philosophy.

>>5371065
I do not understand that picture. If the communist nations were the victims of capitalist imperialism then communism is a weaker system if it cannot defend itself.

>>5372979
stawp telling people to read more about your ideology. Explain it here or no one will care.

>>5372438
Marx wasn't an egalitarian. Communism is a meritocracy.

>>5372457
>how do you get from being an ancap to being a socialist.
When you finally decide to read Das Kapital, find out socialists were the real libertarians, and understand private property is a spook (read Stirner)

>marginalism by the way does a way better job at explaining why a random hole I dug doesn't have any value to anyone than the labour theory of value, which you used to argue for exploitation. If not, I'd be happy to hear your take on it why the worker gets exploited when there's no surplus value.

Javons, the guy who came up with marginal labour value, supported the labour theory of value. You can formulate the LTV using marginalist theory: https://econpapers.repec.org/RAS/pha465.htm

Etherdelta is already buying BZC for 5x ICO price faggots.

>>5372320
btw. the paper you linked seems to plain wrong. I'm not through yet, but this passage alone sticks out enough to cast a doubt whether I want to read more:

>The strong form of the labour theory of value, however, is not only testable
but has actually been tested and veri ed by empirical studies, [Sha98], [MCC95], [Zac06], [TM02] among others. These studies show typically show correlations of around 95% or more between the monetary value of industries' outputs and
the labour required to produce that output .

that one can simply be disproven by passive income: write a mediocre successful app, and you're getting within the timespan of 2 to 3 years more than $100k for one to two month work. sure, most apps don't make any money, but that even strengthens my point, because the labour that goes into them doesn't influence the monetary value of the industry.

I suppose this is one of the fundamentals mr. (dr?) cockshott (kek) will base his argumentation on. so, do I want to keep reading?

>>5372438
>Marx
>opposed to freedom
pick up a book for once in your life you fucking brainlet. I bet you fell for the equality of outcome meme too. Jesus Christ you fucks piss me off.
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" =/= "Everyone gets the same shit"

>>5372979
Please explain to me like I'm 12 years old how the fuck anarcho communism could even remotely work?
>expecting people to ""'""voluntarily"""" not fucking up each other for profit in every chance
It is just not fucking natural.

>>5372979
>>Spanish flu
>>Civil war
>>WWI

none of them were capitalisms fault. literally each one was directly or indirectly created by governments - and in the case of the civil war their attempt to steer the market (e.g. make it less capitalism)

>>5373020
Muh spook

>>5372979
>Its the ultimate lefty ideal

right, free unrestricted trade without ability for intervention is a lefty ideal. tell that to the people who buy labour.

>>5367106
>comrade
Greedy commie btfo by the free market.

>>5367177
Holy shit! /pol/ Safety Squads evicted junkie leftists and now /biz/ is evicting everyone else.

>>5369358
Capitalism is dead
Whales buy into Bitcoin, max keiser sells to early adopters
Next investors and pension funds, bond market pile in
Wall street comes in @ 9k
BTC hits 19k ceiling
Whales sell out (max keiser) early adopters either hodl or sell at bull trap
Wall street triggers at 18k
Predictions of 9k becoming reality
Hodl fags brace for impact.
Government takes taxes to give to corporate America
Doubleplusungood

>>5368169
>chasing wealth
>chased wealth the quick way
Btfo

>>5369606
>The fuck is wrong with celebrating the money you earned with hard work?
Wall street celebrated when their banks were selling CCC MBS as AAA
Did they earn their Ill gotten gains?

>>5372480
>implying stealing workers value isn't exactly what gommies do
Please tell me how a gommie society is going to give everyone everything they need or want without the industrial capacity or incentive to do so. I'll wait. Are you going to force people to produce what you want under pain of death after murdering all those evil rich people?

>>5372947
The world is predominantly capitalist and yet there's a laundry list of literal dictators, half of which were propped by the capitalist nation, the United states. Your dictator boogeyman is Stalin, who tried to resign four times.

>>5372994
You just took the REDpill, in order for capitalist nations to continue growing and avoid economic downturns, they have to be imperialists. Also, they couldn't defend themselves because socialists revolutions typically happened in underdeveloped countries. They didn't fail due to an internal contradiction in socialism, but some external force, and never actually achieving advanced socialist economy (one that is predominately socially owned/production is based on use), the exceptions being Catalonia is the USSR for very brief periods.

>>5373020
kek at the murray quotes. you know the context is how the left captured both the words 'liberal' (at least in america) and 'left'?

>spooks

spooks are a spook. when you go like this, you either end up with a nihilistic devaluation of everything or pragmatism - and there private property wins for its effectiveness as a 'sharing technology'. you can see it as a spook, in the end you're right, but it's also an abstract extension of the exclusivity of an objects use with the side effect of having an implied imperative for tending for that object in terms of its subjective value to the owner. when you add money to the equation you get a distribution pattern that allows for quantification of 'want' or 'need' according to the otherwise unquantifiable subjective value.
that's fucking pragmatic.

> Javons

can you give me a tldr?

>Das Kapital
>liberal

this makes me by the way wonder. how do you not see the need for slavery that's the very opposite of the liberal idea, in communism?
after all, it's working for the sake of others while only getting what others deem your necessity - essentially reducing you to the status of a farm animal, as expressed by 'from each according to his ability to each according to his needs'.

>>5371906
Unless he did dumb margin shit or fucked with alts and got burned, which could be likely considering how fucking dumb he is.

>>5370398
underneath that quote:

"Here, lemme check this one I just made and posted on reddit- it's already got 500 upvotes! And I got invited to be a moderator on /r/me_irl!"

>>5369358
All socialist get helicopter rides, faggot.

>>5373516
>communism will give everyone their needs
>communism doesn't have incentives

fucking read a book and stop going off of memes

>>5373526
>after all, it's working for the sake of others while only getting what others deem your necessity - essentially reducing you to the status of a farm animal
literally wage cucking

>>5373063
I've read it and I still say the same, don't put words I didn't say in my mouth.

>>5373004
Contrary to people who say communists want big government, anarcho or libertarian communists want a stateless society where workplaces are owned and run by the workers.

I ask people to read for themselves because I don't want to violently push ideas onto the unwilling and people will be more receptive to ideas if they discover them themselves. Ancom isn't a perfect ideology, but it doesn't claim to be a bullshit puritan ideal of first principles the way contemporary autistic liretardians bang on about their bumper sticker politics.

>>5373058
How does selling software disprove LTV? You know Cockshott is a computer scientist right?

>>5373583
>EDUCATE YOURSELF.

>>5370398
>dictator of the proletariat
You're a retard.

>>5373589
ever heard of the word 'contract'? when you get a job, you can negotiate your terms and or say no to a job. every time people come up with trying to make such a cheap attack on wage labour, it's obvious that they at best only ever worked entry level jobs, if at all.

>>5370432
>lefty memes

Jesus Christ. It's a simple formula:

STUPID NIGGERS

:^)

LMAO BOTTOM TEXT


Stop trying to reinvent the wheel.

>>5373617
>I've read it
Read what? That quote is from Critique of the Gotha Program, not Kapital or The Manifesto or any of his mainstream works (which again makes me think you have read none). Marx was deeply concerned with Human freedom, which any basic understanding of the German Idealist movement would teach you. He simply disregarded the idea the reality is mind and reworked the system to reflect the material world around us rather than mind, or spirit, or Geist, or whatever term you prefer. Unless you are genuinely interested in political theory and willing to put the time in you shouldn't blindly speculate on the meaning of complex theoretical systems. That is the literal definition of a Pseude.

>>5373714
it's an example that shows that his claim that there's a provable correlation between monetary output of an industry and invested labour. I could as well argue that if there was, no company ever would go bankrupt, because all they'd need to do is to work more.

>>5371065
>I shouldn't have to do things to sustain life

Kys

>>5373516
>Please tell me how a gommie society is going to give everyone everything they need or want without the industrial capacity or incentive to do so.
Have you heard of supply and demand?

>>5370090
That's what I meant. Autocorrect. I can't see a nig calling himself a moolie.

>>5373763
>dictator
dictatorship, not "dictator". The concept is to be understood as the alternative to the "dictatorship of capital", ie here, now. Did he elaborate very well on that? Not really desu

>>5373714
it's an example that shows that his claim that there's a provable correlation between monetary output of an industry and invested labour is wrong. His own occupation is not relevant.

>>5373583
>can't back up his point
>goes for the 'read a book' throwaway

If I want a yacht with 10 bitches on it while I eat crab legs and burn dollar bills, how does "the state" allot that to me in gommunism? Your only shot is making it big in a capitalist market or being the actual dictator in an authoritarian society.

>>5373729
>>5373775
Thanks for proving once again /pol/ doesn't read...The communist manifesto was written in Marx's early humanitarian years, he ditched this entirely for "scientific socialism". He doesn't even know the meaning of the message he's quoting 'To each...'. Give me a Das Kapital debunking or something, this is plain retarded.

>>5369358
Grandparents family estate was literally taken by commies, reffited in separate apartments and given to immigrants.

>t. e.europoor

>>5372549
that fist is asian mr. ghost

There's a board for all you economic history retards

his if you are aware you are talking about ancient theories. pol if you simply want to larp as someone smart

>>5373949
The people in the breadlines of the USSR sure didn't.

>>5374013
>"communism means this"
>no it doesn't read this
>"haha your stupid

kys

>>5371722
This man is correct.

>>5371820
If you produced burgers which cost you $4 to make, but someone else could make them for $2 and they were just as good, then the market will value your burgers at ~$2 regardless of what it costs for you to make yours, unless you could capitalize on some marketing to get consumers to buy your overpriced product (legal scamming).
If I spend my entire lifetime building a new, novel machine, but nobody but me has use of it, what is the value of the machine? I say it's worth my lifetime of labor. The market says it's worth nothing. There is no true value. Worth is context dependent. A free and open market allows you to discover what people will pay for a good or service. If you're selling something that's all that matters unless you intend to force consumers to pay an unfair price and producers to make an unfair profit.

>>5373949
Dont even bother trying man, seriously.

>>5373526
>after all, it's working for the sake of others while only getting what others deem your necessity - essentially reducing you to the status of a farm animal, as expressed by 'from each according to his ability to each according to his needs'.
>'from each according to his ability to each according to his needs'
From each according to his skill(ability) to each according to his Maslow hierarchy of need(needs)
How is the dictatorship of the bougiose any different to the dictatorship of socialist bureaucrats?

>>5374091
>The people in the breadlines of the USSR sure didn't.
>capitalist countries also have breadlines
Scarcity drives food prices

>>5373949
Oops sorry, bit drunk, the person you were replying was actually correct Socialism/communism doesn't work. A dream made up by losers and delusional people of society. Capitalism aint perfect but it actually rewards effort.

Fuck you, capitalist supporters!

Communism killed people? Fucking open the CHART OF USSR DEMOGRAPHICS.
Read vital statistics. Read on mortality rates.
GUESS WHAT? Universal health care worked wonders. USSR made life in Russia the best.
Now look at what happened to Russia after the collapse. We already lack 21millions of population thx to increased mortality and lowest ever birth rates. And don't tell me about "demographic shift in post industrial countries" - russia is in ruins and that doesn't apply to it.

Fucking look at the FACTS. STATISTICS. Get your heads out of the fucking holes in the ground. Stop believing in baseless capitalist propaganda.

>>5374103
>no argument whatsoever
>still hasn't proven me wrong
>knows the gommie-meme cannot solve the example I gave
>gets rekt

Good thing I'm still shitposting in other threads and earning my internet neetbux, you can keep fantasizing about how you'll be the only dictator (we all know you fags think you'll never be the workercuck at the bottom in your shitty system) living large at the top of the gommie food chain while the proles slave away for you.

>>5374146
>How is the dictatorship of the bougiose any different to the dictatorship of socialist bureaucrats?

In one you get to decide what you need and how to apply your skills, in the other some asshole who believe he knows better than you what's best for you gets to decide.

I mean, for fucks sake, at the base of marxist critiques is a critique of material dependency, so they conclude that the best way is enslave everyone in that dependency while monopolising and centralising it - and further ignoring their own belief in the greedy and corrupt nature of man.

>>5373896
Look at reality, I don't have the capacity for expresing myself on english fluently nor the capacity to do so brillantly.
The individual is not going to change magicaly, not even after generations and give others their share just because after socialsm ends.
It will never, ever, work the only way to do it is by perpetual force not puntual.

>>5374455
when peoples lives are shitty, when times are hard, people breed more
when there lives are better, they don't breed as much

>>5374455
>Read on mortality rates.

sometime a photo of a soviet market during times of collectivisation is a way better source than faked statistics.

>>5373911
>>5374010
His occupation is relevant because he's obviously aware you can sell software and make large amounts of money with little labor. The point of those studies was to show correlations, which was around 95%. You're trying to debunk this by pointing out outliers, a event that happens very rarely to very few people.

>>5374457
>you're wrong because you're not spoonfeeding me
>wooooooow
The answers you want are in the book I told you to read, if you don't want to read them then that's on you, brainlet.

>>5374455
Do you faggots want more of COMMUNISM KILLS?

See this for Afghan:
http://thepublicarchive.com/?p=1384
Oh my god! Those damn Commies build housing blocks in Afghanistan? HOW DARE THEY???? Not unlike USA, that bombed country into oblivion!
Or how about this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naghlu_Dam
OH MY GOD! Soviet occupants build the biggest Dam in Afghan, that supplies the country with electricity? THOSE BASTARDS!!!

Do you capitalist faggots can even google any facts for your own?

>>5374455
>The Absolute State
>Communist State

My fucking sides people eat this drivel up, hey did you sell at 11k too? or are you this fucking Coon himself?

>>5374041
It's ok anon, much worse things have happened to people under capitalism.

>mfw I have a BS and MS from that school
Well fuck. Guess those degrees are useless

>Discussions of government policy must be strictly limited to economic policies (fiscal and monetary). Discussions of a political nature should be posted on >>>/pol/. Global Rule 3 is also obviously in effect.

fuck your shit, reporting all of you

>>5374576
If Demo statistics is fake, then why modern capitalistic government of Russia, that is very anti-communist, doesn't disprove that statistics? It would be very easy. But they don't. Guess why? Cos it's true and there is nothing to disprove.
1 photo is not a good statistical cut. Not even 10 or 100 photos.

>>5374565
Can't you fucking read? I addressed that. People's life in Russia now is crap. Why ain't they breeding then? Hello? Plz reply.

>>5374455
Thats cause you fags don't know how to implement capitalism correctly. It requires judicial morality and respect for property rights, something Meester Puteen doesn't seem to give a shit about. Also the people must be high-trust.

>>5374614
Sorry anon, I'm just an efficient capitalist and need my reports typed up in quick single-page, 12-point font spreadsheets for efficiency. Can you handle that or do you need to hide behind an entire book to get so much as a single point across?

>>5374534
Communism may very well be nothing more than an ideal fantasy. I leave plenty room for that. But Communism is by definition voluntary and lacks coercion, so again these statements you are making are grounded on misnomers and erroneous judgements. It's one thing to say you don't understand it, but don't act as if you do just to give these platitudes about human nature.

>>5374640
>Implying I stated that USSR was the perfect Communist state.
It wasn't by a long shot. But it was SO MUCH better than any modern capitalist state, that it's worth to compare.
Khrushchev fucked up big time, and from there on it only went downhills. I acknowledge that. Most educated people now agree that Stalin's policies where the best of all in USSR's history. (plz don't start the stalin-gulag crap, it's been disproved all a million times).

>>5372438
no, marx had the fairly optimistic belief that man would find freedom when not confined inside power hierarchies. He didn't say man pursues equality

He was probably wrong about sexual selection, but people really take for granted alot of the criticism of states and capitalism he had at the time (and at the time they were very relevant)

>>5372212
>Capitalism is the most humanitarian system.
lol

>>5374614
>You're trying to debunk this by pointing out outliers
>a event that happens very rarely to very few people.

you're right, in the sense that I actually am attacking causation. That's indeed a mistake. Though, one might argue correlation doesn't prove causation - and to be fair, he's trying to prove an outdated economic theory with correlation, where causation is needed, which I have disproven. Either way, if the outlier exist no matter how rare, the theory at question can not claim truth for causation which it is concerned with: you say value comes from labour, I show that I generate value with disproportional amounts of labour, ergo your claim is wrong. At this point he either has to modify his initial proposition (which he as computer scientist should know is bad practice, because it introduces further complexity, which means more potential for bugs), or just give up.

I frankly still do not see how his own occupation is relevant, other than that he is not an economist, nor (as far as I know) an entrepreneur (which is more relevant than a computer background).

>>5374729
Oh you mean like how MOST of the countries on this planet CAN NOT implement "capitalism" correctly? How many countries have actually a good life?

What about Mexico? It's right there next to USA, it's under capitalist rule. Why can't it be as prosperous as USA? Maybe... because... USA exploit it? Like with oil industry maybe? Maybe you can even google that up???

>>5374623
Guys, yo smart guys! Plz reply!
Why those damn commies were building industry and improving lifes in OTHER countries, when USA can only bomb them?
Plz reply guys!

>>5374614
by the way, so you understand me why I disagree over the relevance of his profession: the same example can be made with music, books, and probably a lot more I can't think of. In a way even crypto trading (even though it's one of the very few examples of a zero sum game) or investing (which is not a zero sum game)

>>5374696
communism / capitalism is economic policy. the politics are mere appendage stemming from details of implementation.

>>5374866
>Killed by capitalism
>Khmer Rouge (not communist)

marxist-leninist here

i bought the dip, sucks to suck

>>5371065
>>5370432
Bullshit long text memes, lmao the left can't meme, it wasn't a meme itself after all
hey leftypol tell your tranny board owner (vid related) to stop sucking jewish dicks

>>5374716
>If Demo statistics is fake, then why modern capitalistic government of Russia, that is very anti-communist, doesn't disprove that statistics?

because of their nationalistic spin that centres around reclaiming their position on the international stage, they lost when the soviet union fell? duh. why don't they demolish all the soviet monuments when they're "capitalist"?

>>5374866
Man! Stalin killed 600k criminals in his 30 year rule. How could he???

20 mils die every year for nothing in this world of CAPITALISM (Commies lost when USSR collapsed). That is the real and only humanitarian system! Yes!

>>5375007
It also lists diseases as capitalism's fault, or low IQ nigger hell holes as capitalism's fault, and empire expansionism as capitalism's fault

>>5369358
No, socialism is where everyone loses their freedom to make their own economic choices. Good luck starting a business under socialism. You hire a worker and suddenly he demands half of your business's profits.

>>5375040
God fucking Jesus. Open GOOGLE.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41809659

Not only the current fascistic government of Russia demolished soviet monuments every year, they also open new monuments like the one in the link.
Please. Please think for yourself. Find facts. Compare them.
Putin was always anti-communistic. He blames Lenin for most of the problems in our country.

>>5374898

To me , personally, communism destroyed my grandparents lives. Not actual communism but more like something worse in disguise but nonetheless take a look at you are actually typing bro. Face facts that in what you are arguing you have slim to no chance of ever having anything to even fucking be remembered by although capitalism may be just as evil or cruel the sad fact is it gives us the best chance to do shit simpel as that and if people seriously wana sit here on a fucking chinese pokemon token allocation directory be my guest but take it to POL, or face the truth that its shitty doesnt work and there will never be an example of it because guess what? Its the writings of a fucking autist

>>5375120
Why do you need to "hire" someone? To exploit them?
Why don't you make him a partner in enterprise? And share profits accordingly?
Collective businesses where allowed under Stalin's rule. And they worked very well, and helped to cover holes in governmental plans (fighting deficits of products on the markets).

>>5375056
>lack of clean water
>die of hunger
>die of curable disease
>die of malaria

right, all these things are created by capitalism, and are not a symptom of general poverty (in every system). In fact you should ask yourself why the rates of all these things are lowest in the most capitalist countries.

i hate these memes. at least try shoving some fuck up by coca colas mercenaries or something into our faces. something that at least has some connection to capitalism.

>>5375174
God fucking Jesus. Open GOOGLE.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41809659

>in our country.

I thought you were russian. wonder why.

when this bubble pops and 99% of us here didn't make it and all that's left is depression and suicide the offer to help us slaughter the bourgeoisie will still be on the table, until then let's stare at numbers and dream about winning the magic capitalism lotto

>>5375040
It's pointless to debate with communists. They're too far gone in their fantasy world. Give them evidence and they deny it as capitalist propaganda. They refuse to acknowledge of any atrocities, famines, and human rights violations that happened in communist countries. Classic example of "grass is greener on the other side" mentality.

>>5375456
>when this bubble pops
> suicide

when you're too stupid to short, you should definitely kill yourself. aside from that, murdering others for your own stupidity tells about your character.

>>5375181
Give chance? Give chance to be a wagecuck? To die from hunger? To be in debt from college or health care? Those are some good chances!

You know what a real chance is? Lemme tell ya:
There was a boy from small village that no one knows about. That boy had to be raised in hardships from previous wars that had just passed. His parents where usual agricultural workers.
That boy enlisted in the army. The greatest army on earth at that time. While he served, he learned to fly aircrafts. Then he got a chance to be enlisted as experimental flight pilot. And then he became the first person on Earth to leave it, the planet.
That person was Yuri Gagarin. He had no higher education. No wealthy parents. No nothing. He was a simple boy from some small village in war-ruined country. Now the whole world knows him.
Do you want more examples like that? Could that have happened under capitalism? A simple person reaching that high without the help of reach parents or something else?

PLS HELP MEEEE THESE BAGS ARE OH SO HEAVY

>>5375305
Fuck is "most capitalist countries"? We live on CAPITALIST planet. Do you not get it? The only country that is out of that system is North Korea.
There is NO OPPOSITION to capitalism right now on this planet. It used to be Warsaw Pact block, but now it's gone.
You have no one else to blame, but capitalists.

>>5367131

hellz yeah I can afford to go to the hockey, im making bank yo

>>5375273
>Why don't you make him a partner in enterprise? And share profits accordingly?

What if he doesn't want to? What if he doesn't want the responsibilities of being a partner? What if he lacks the ability to do anything more than menial work? What if he just wants a simple job?

>Collective businesses where allowed under Stalin's rule.

There was no other choice. It was either that or get sent to the gulags.

Collective farming never worked.

>>5374744
Sorry anon, you gommunism bad :(( meme straw manned me so you can fuck off and go read a book.

>>5374885
>>5374959
>I show that I generate value with disproportional amounts of labour, ergo your claim is wrong
But your argument is bad. Just because something happens a statistically low chance doesn't debunk the fact that there's strong correlations between monetary value of outputs and required labor to produce those outputs. You would be right if the vast majority of the human population could make shitty software and become wealthy from this, but this would obviously be a utopia were economics don't matter anymore.

>I frankly still do not see how his own occupation is relevant,
>I disagree over the relevance of his profession
He's been a computer scientist for decades, why do you think he's oblivious to the fact that low effort software can make still make money? There's even software that takes teams of people, but makes no money...fuck Marx debunked.

Imagine making your whole political and economic policies based off a logic fallacy equivalent to 2+1=0.
This is why machines would kill the human race.

>>5369358
No. Socialism is where the state determines what your time/labor is worth, instead of you doing that for yourself.

If you think your labor is more valuable than what your employer pays you, then you can FUCK OFF AND GET A BETTER JOB
If no one will pay you what you expect to be paid, well, you're just fucking wrong in your assessment of the value of your labor.

>>5375273
Why should someone who did not invest anything into starting my business and who has no risks should it fail have joint control over it

>>5375477
Of course it's pointless! Because all you can say is baseless capitalist propaganda, while I can actually tell the facts.
How can we debate like that? You keep believing what you believe. I only trust the facts, not beliefs.

I still have no reply to why Soviets were building better lives in Afghan, and USA build nothing. As a small example. Want me to list of factories and industries build by Soviets in "occupied" Baltic states? I got much more there...

>>5375574
>The only country that is out of that system is North Korea.

so you're telling me we should all live like norks?

>There is NO OPPOSITION to capitalism right now on this planet.

there has been, and it failed miserably. pic related. that's why we don't have so few of this shit around.

>You have no one else to blame, but capitalists.

right, because your stupid list didn't list phenomena of nature. here's how things are: when people are born, it's shit: they're naked, they're hungry, they scream in pain and are torn from the arms of the only woman they love. that's the status quo. capitalism helps.

if you're so concerned with the plight of people maybe take a look at what actually causes this shit and what your beloved communism has done to mankind, you narcissistic fuck.

>>5375516
Yuri Gagarin is just an outlier. He was chosen by the State.

How does that disprove the many examples of upward mobility that happen under Capitalism?

>>5375574
and here's your 'no opposition', also known as list of shitholes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states

GO TO POL YOU RETARDS

>>5369358
probably the wrong place to talk about benefits of social programs.

but yeah labor unions are good for some, not good for others.

>>5375615
Oh god. U guys do not know anything and confuse the basic terminology.

Collective enterprises and state owned enterprises were different things under Soviet regime. You could work for the government, or you could say "fuck it" and start your own business with other people, a collective. But the option of not working is not there, yes. As it should be in a healthy society.

>>5375717
There were no risks. Education is free, healthcare is free, housing is free. What are you risking? And joint control doesn't mean same amount of control as you.

>>5375007
>what is the CIA

>>5375117
>NOT REAL CAPITALISM!!11
It's the same criteria capitalist use when they try to refute socialism, even though it's never existed outside of brief moments.

>>5375305
Poverty isn't solved in capitalism because it's not profitable to do so. You have to take risk in capitalism to help any other person. Despite producing enough food and homes to end poverty it all goes waste.

>>5375120
>socalism
>profits
R E A D A B O O K

>>5375872
Oh boy im jumping to the idea of starting a collective and working long hard hours to get my ration of bread

>>5375872
>housing is free

>There, on that stair landing, I got a quick and lasting lesson in the meaning of the word cornered. There were hordes of rats in the front entryway. My friends and I used to chase them around with sticks. Once I spotted a huge rat and pursued it down the hall until I drove it into a corner. It had nowhere to run. Suddenly it lashed around and threw itself at me. I was surprised and frightened. Now the rat was chasing me. It jumped across the landing and down the stairs. Luckily, I was a little faster and managed to slam the door shut in its nose.

i have good credit

how do i take out a mortgage to put it into crypto? serious question

>>5371065
>In socialism no one would be forced to sell their labor to secure their means of existence.
So who makes you the chicken tendies that your mom buys for you? Under your naive portrayal of socialism, you must be assuming that all desires are matched by all productive drives in a 1:1 way. This will never ever be the case. People will always want something more than anyone else wants to provide that thing, the only way to resolve this is to provide an intermediary, mutually desired thing such as currency, that can be provided to incentivize the producer to the same level as the consumer.

>>5375764
That's a list of self-declared socialist states, not actual socialist economies.

>>5375849
You're right, but no one points out and reports the non-related stuff (shitting on Marxism) prior to my post.

>>5375719
You only have numbers. The presence of factories and industries doesn't indicate the quality of life. Isn't that what communism is about, improving the quality of life for the masses?

I know what communism is like because my parents, grandparents, and relatives lived through it. All you have are your your statistics and your books. You don't believe in facts. You just believe in your stupid fantasies. You are very selective in with facts to the point of hypocrisy. If a communist country has a "good" economy, then you declare it as a victory for communism while completely disregarding its social problems, but with a capitalistic country, you disregard its good economy and focus only on the individuals being "exploited".

>>5375933
>Poverty isn't solved in capitalism because it's not profitable to do so.

kek? it's not profitable to have customers with money? it's not profitable to have a lot of enterprises working towards making your ass comfy?

>You have to take risk in capitalism to help any other person.

I too never have heard of charities. They simply do not exist.

>Despite producing enough food

yet somehow transport isn't cheap. still hunger is fading out, and obesity, especially in 3rd world countries, becomes an increasingly more serious problem. but hey, it's not like famines have a stern tradition in socialism. even Venezuela is on on the party.

>it all goes waste

maybe, take a look at india. there you get a good insight on those mechanisms. and before you say anything about evil capitalist india, remember their constitution:

>We, the people of India, having solemnly resolved to constitute India into a Sovereign Socialist Secular Democratic Republic and to secure to all its citizens

>>5367749
He admitted he was trolling for gibs

>>5371065
>>5375872

>In socialism no one would be forced to sell their labor to secure their means of existence.

>But the option of not working is not there, yes. As it should be in a healthy society.

so who of you two is right?

>>5376030
so you're saying socialists are full of shit? or are you saying socialists are generally incapable of reaching their goals?
or are they just liars?

when is a socialist country socialist? what is the magic criteria that makes everything 'not real socialism'? or maybe you're inviting us all to say 'not real x' every time someone refutes the crap that comes out of all our mouthes?

>>5367189
What do you think happens when you can’t pay a mortgage underage? The bank owns the house until it is paid off

Imagine being in a communist country and given the label of kulak for having slightly more bread than your paint huffing neighbors so the government czar's come in and beat you within a inch of your life while giving half your bread to the neighbors and half to themselves.

>>5376235
Communists have no concept of a contract or agreement because they see it as exploitation. Even if it's something as simple as sharing 50% of the rent/bill with their roommate, they think it's unfair. Their whole life philosophy is literally gibs-me-dat.

>>5376008
>People will always want something more than anyone else wants to provide that thing

You're making assumptions about human behavior and ignoring that fact that needs and wants change based on environmental conditions, or even fabricated by culture industry. Do you know about Edward Bernays?

>mutually desired thing such as currency, that can be provided to incentivize the producer to the same level as the consumer.
Read Cockshott, there's a market socialist solution to incentiviztion using Marx's idea of labor vouchers.

>>5376101
>kek? it's not profitable to have customers with money? it's not profitable to have a lot of enterprises working towards making your ass comfy?
It's not profitable if the customers have nothing to offer, they are in poverty right?

>I too never have heard of charities. They simply do not exist.
Is it pure coincidence the only people who can afford to donate to charities and have any significant impact are people who own a lot of things?

>yet somehow transport isn't cheap. still hunger is fading out, and obesity, especially in 3rd world countries, becomes an increasingly more serious problem. but hey, it's not like famines have a stern tradition in socialism
Can you explain how the famines were caused by socialist mechanism? It's not like there's nuance or anything you know? Natural droughts, Kulaks culling livestock/hoarding grains, and sparrows eating crops? Anyways, I think capitalist states have caused more famines, pic related.

>maybe, take a look at india. there you get a good insight on those mechanisms. and before you say anything about evil capitalist india, remember their constitution:
Just because they claim to be something doesn't mean they are that in practice. Can you explain how Venezuela's and India' economies are socialists? Do you have any statics for social ownership or any evidence on whether or not their industries are producing for use instead of exchange?

>>5369606
Yes, goy, we earned it fair and square. Now back to work!

>>5376919
You resent the Rich because you aren’t willing to work as hard as you need to to become Rich.

>>5376230
>so you're saying socialists are full of shit?
No, I'm saying you should read a fucking a book and understand the difference between an ideology and an economic system.

>when is a socialist country socialist?
It's pretty simple, an economy that's socially owned and production is based on use. If you couldn't tell, the world is predominantly privately owned and production is based on exchange (profits).

>>5376907
>It's not profitable if the customers have nothing to offer, they are in poverty right?

you know why people do wage labour, right?

>people who own a lot of things?

so you mean, people who have a lot can give whereas the poor can not? c'mon dude ...

>Can you explain how the famines were caused by socialist mechanism?

I was referring to food waste. India has very poor infrastructure and subsidises a lot of agriculture, leading to an overproduction of crops that rot in the fields.
that's a socialist policy designed to help the poor farmers.

>Natural droughts, Kulaks culling livestock/hoarding grains, and sparrows eating crops?

a) the sparrows, better read that one up again. the murder of those poor birdies lead to an explosion of pests that lead to destruction of the harvest in the coming years.

b) I didn't take you for one who'd defend soviet policies, but here it comes: for instance during the volga famine lenin rather bought weapons than helping the starving population and commented this with "that'll teach them what capitalism does to them." that's certainly a nuance you should take into account. I hope I do not have to comment on the nature of those orders concerning the kulaks.

>pic related.

I hope you can also describe the capitalist mechanism that caused those famines, because frankly I that's a lot to look up.

>Just because they claim to be something doesn't mean they are that in practice
but who were? that's the point. if every time a socialist attempts socialism it turns out to be 'not real socialism' there's something fucking wrong with socialism. not only because of the human disasters it causes.

>Do you have any statics for social ownership ...

you realise that was a very extensive list, do you?

>>5375714
>No. Socialism is where the state determines what your time/labor is worth
Is this what they teach you school nowadays?
[citation needed]

>>5376907
>labor vouchers
Cool, so you rename cash

>>5376907
Also
>You're making assumptions about human behavior and ignoring that fact that needs and wants change based on environmental conditions, or even fabricated by culture industry.
That is in no way a response to my statement. It doesn't matter what the environmental conditions are, people will always want something more than anyone else wants to provide that thing. This may not apply to everything all of the time, but there will always be desires like this.

>>5377136
>the difference between an ideology and an economic system.

c'mon man. weak. your ideology is centred around the economic system. it's the same thing.

>It's pretty simple, an economy that's socially owned and production is based on use

that's fucking vague, and everything I take away from it is a nationalised economy that produces crap. That applies to india for most of its independent history. You see how rich they became.

>>5377309
Go ahead, explain to me how that statement is false.

>>5375528
i just check on blackchain explorer and non of you racist fucks sent this man any money you should all be fucking ashamed of yourselves

>>5377303
>you know why people do wage labour, right?
Alright so why does poverty exist?

>so you mean, people who have a lot can give whereas the poor can not? c'mon dude ...
No, I mean, people who have a lot, take a lot, and they give peanuts back to society in the form of charity for good boy points.

>I was referring to food waste. India has very poor infrastructure and subsidises a lot of agriculture, leading to an overproduction of crops that rot in the fields.
that's a socialist policy designed to help the poor farmers.
Yes, sounds like a policy implemented to offset the counter-productivity of capitalism.

>a)
>b)
Ok, so now do you understand a government policy to industrialize a nation isn't cause by an economic system but an ideology?

>I hope you can also describe the capitalist mechanism that caused those famines
Oh so it wasn't real capitalism? Do you see my point? Anyways, they certainly were capitalist states.

>but who were? that's the point. if every time a socialist attempts socialism it turns out to be 'not real socialism'
Here's a simple question, why do you think revolutions happen to begin with? Don't you think the previous capitalist system has something to do with it? And it's not "every time" here's a laundry list of times where revolution worked briefly then shut down soon after due to external forces: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIddCEBCKHQ

>you realise that was a very extensive list, do you?
You were implying Venezuela or India were socialist states so naturally I was asking for a source showing how their economy are predominantly socially owned and their production being based around use instead of exchange.

>>5377324
Cool, labor vouchers don't circulate and therefore cannot accumulate capital.

>>5377366
It doesn't matter what the environmental conditions are, people will always want something more than anyone else wants to provide that thing. This may not apply to everything all of the time, but there will always be desires like this.

You should major in sociology then and make your case then. I'd like read it.

>>5377387
First, I'd like explaining on your claim that socialism is"where the state determines what your time/labor is worth" Surly you're not pulling this out of your ass right?

>>5370680
>>5375036
>>5373843
>>5375036
>I have to read and learn therefore lefty memes aren't funny :(

The absolute state of /pol/

>>5377719
>Alright so why does poverty exist?

because it's the natural state of man? when you go into the jungle, there's no super market. (and that's not capitalisms fault).

if you'd like to have a more precise answer, it needs to in context of an environment. let's say first world country x: general bad personal financial management (poor people act poor), inequality in capability (dumb people are prone to poverty.) and matter of fact a system that conspires against poor people (no, it's not capitalism. it's the shit free market advocates constantly being hated for when they try to abolish it).

if you want third world countries: capitalism hasn't yet (enough) arrived. transformation doesn't happen within a few month, but takes decades. look at postwar-japan, hong kong or singapore - all three started out as sweat shop colonies

>Yes, sounds like a policy implemented to offset the counter-productivity of capitalism.

no, these kind of policies are usually implemented to guarantee an income for farmers (or prop up an economic sector that's important for war time, like it's done in the usa)
nevertheless, the outcome is suboptimal in all aspects.
and it leads to food waste, the thing you didn't like about capitalism, which in this case is according to you done to " offset the counter-productivity of capitalism"

>economic system but an ideology?

the nationalisation is integral part of the economic system which is at the center of the ideology. I don't get though what this has to do with sparrows and kulaks, which were both cases of mass murder.

>Oh so it wasn't real capitalism?

I'd love saying that to you, but no: I just wanted to inquire how those famines happened according to you and how capitalism was at fault. I don't like looking each up myself.

>capitalist states.

capitalism isn't concerned with state hood. actually, the state is contrary to the capitalist idea, as it is not privately owned, is a artificial monopoly, and steers the market.

>>5377719
>Here's a simple question, why do you think revolutions happen to begin with? ...

complex, and very interesting topic. I actually can't tell whether you agree with my thoughts on this, but I'd be talking a lot about chimps.

>Don't you think the previous capitalist system

I do not even know what country you're talking about. but somehow I can't shake the feeling off I'm going to have to reply with 'that wasn't even close to capitalism'.

> where revolution worked briefly
briefly is the point. anyway, I'm going to watch that video in a minute. Can't comment on it now though.

>You were implying Venezuela or India were socialist states

thanks, that's what I wanted to know. Have fun: https://www.oecd.org/daf/ca/Workshop_SOEsDevelopmentProcess_India.pdf

I'm sure you find something to disprove my claim.

>>5378090
>quoting me 2 times
oh the leftysoy is nervous it seems
is there some pay for the replies? i hope not, that would be wagecuckering

>>5377018
New money is always made through a combo of luck, talent, and work. It's not just work ethic.

Old money is just luck.

>>5378199
>because it's the natural state of man
lol? The natural state of man is a hunter-gather and a subsistence farmer. You can just build your house anywhere because private property (capitalism) is a thing now. Before this we had things like the commons, but again, capitalism happened and moved people away from being farmers to working in factories and paying landlord rents.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclosure_Acts

>capitalism hasn't yet (enough) arrived.
They already have capitalism though, they went through privatization, it's just they're indebted to the first world.

You sure did a lot mental gymnastics to avoid the fact that poor people are poor simply because they don't own things.

>no, these kind of policies are usually implemented to guarantee an income for farmers
Yes, because the government was forced to do something about the economic system their living in (capitalism).

>>5378199
>nationalisation is integral part of the economic system
A nation and a type of economic system are two independent things. The point is you're trying to argue against an economic system by pointing out things that aren't caused by it. If you have a problem with revolution then say you have a problem with revolution and not said economic system.

>I don't get though what this has to do
I'm pointing out how history can explain why things happens instead of putting all the blame on a group of people you don't like. And can you explain how it was mass murder when there wasn't intent?

>I do not even know what country you're talking about. but somehow I can't shake the feeling off I'm going to have to reply with 'that wasn't even close to capitalism

They were socialist revolutions so you can only guess what type of system they were trying to escape.

>https://www.oecd.org/daf/ca/Workshop_SOEsDevelopmentProcess_India.pdf
That's not how it works, you have to point out where the source says the economy is predominantly socially owned.

>>5377719
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIddCEBCKHQ
oh fuck, man. that's 45 minutes. tldr?

>>5378677
I'm still waiting for your arguments, you are on the right side, right?

>>5379049
List of socialist revolutions improving the conditions of people throughout history, external forces (usually capitalist) undermine them and they eventually fail. Now we have a global capitalist hegemony, and even proclaimed socialist states are forced to have capitalist economies in order to survive.

>>5379043
>The natural state of man is a hunter-gather and a subsistence farmer

you wanna tell me that's not poor life fuck? those people have nothing: the very definition of poverty.

> They

who is they?

>ou sure did a lot mental gymnastics t
because it's the natural state of man dum dum dum

>A nation

a nation isn't even a country. you mean country.

> pointing out things that aren't caused by it

that's ironic, because you constantly do that by citing government action when you're trying to attack private enterprise. and by the way, the things I cite are a direct consequence of economic policy - ergo the economics of communism. it's like you don't think / understand what I'm telling you. Maybe we need to find a common language first.

>revolution, economic system
I dislike both, and both are interlinked in communist ideology. at least until we get to non-marxian socialism.

>I'm pointing out how history can explain why things happens

you mean, mao see's sparrow, doesn't like what sparrow does, tells people to murder all sparrows, and watches them starve in the comming year? yeah, that has nothing to do with central planning and communism.

>putting all the blame on a group of people you don't like.
communist -> kulaks, rich people

> And can you explain how it was mass murder when there wasn't intent?

intentions do not make the act. I'm sure the nazis had all the best intentions, doesn't make them innocent.

>They were socialist revolutions so you can only guess what type of system they were trying to escape.

country. give me a country, so I can finally say 'not real capitalism'.

>That's not how it works

you mean like the whole paper by cocksaw or what he's called? read it, I'm eager to tell you how control of the commanding heights is in equal to total nationalisation of the whole producing economy.

>>5379305
>even proclaimed socialist states are forced to have capitalist economies in order to survive.

something tells me, the reason they opened their markets has more to do with the efficiency of central planning. anyway, k, thx

>>5369606
>hard work
laughingoligarchs.jpg

>>5368169
We'll he stays true to his world, he bought high and sold low, he ain't chasing wealth

>>5379369
Yes, which is why they had legal black markets. There's also the fact that the US controlled global trade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD-naLXlvck

>>5367131
This is what happens when brainlet communists attempt to free market.

>>5379530
>he thinks markets are exclusive to capitalism

>>5368169
Well he is succeeding.
He is achieving his goals in life. Good for him.
Not shamed to beg neither. Woow.
He is the one who thinks that "the thought counts " more than the actual Wood.
In other words- this one is a keeper.
The Complete opposite of me.
I feel better about me when I see people like that.

>>5368320
Marx was a who're mooching money from his friend Endels so he doesn't have to work, while his children died of malnutrishion.
I think he is following Marx quite literally.

>>5369358
>workers get the full value of their work
Never happens. A capitalistic company maximizes profit for a worker's effort. A socialist company would minimize it.

>>5379502
>There's also the fact that the US controlled global trade.

that's called 'secure global trade'.
anyway, I have to get up, and go shopping. Was fun talking to you, merry christmas.

>>5374455
I think 60 million starved in Ukraine during Holodomor is nothing
50% of Cambodia's population decline due to insane comunitic practices.
100 thousand killed in Poland long after the wars. And it all was planned and very political. Some of their kills were accidental. I agree but most were planed.
Hitler could only dream of killing the number of people that Stalin did.
Not mentioning even that they dipped out their intelligent part of society.

>comrade
Man, this guy is my favorite trainwreck.

>>5367177
Typical lefty. Attentionfagging so he can beg. He probably never bought a single coin.

>>5375641
I'm sorry I have to comment on this one:

>fuck Marx debunked.
yes, indeed. you work, you generate no monetary value is debunking labour theory of value.

and by the way, my argument was right. the labour theory of value makes an absolute claim. it's like the word 'always': when you finds an exception you're disproven. the fact that it might be a freak case doesn't make a difference. you argue value is created by labour, and I magically create it without labour. how does statistics make a difference? I'm magic.

>>5367106
It's a joke you brainless redditor

>>>>>>>>>/r/debatecommunism

>>5374455
Want to know how I know Russia is shit? Communism actually made it better. Kek!

>>5379582
His name is fucking Cockshott. You expect anybody to read this 200 page shitpost?

>>5376907
Your pic is useless. Not only does it assume capitalism is directly responsible for every famine listed, but it assumes there is an equal number of communist societies to compare to. In reality, there just aren't as many to compare to because a disproportionate number of them resulted in famine. Hence, more societies choose capitalism and more instances of famine occur in such societies, in spite of having a lower rate of occurrence.

>>5367106
Who are you quoting

Love a good minority ownage.
>>5367189
Idiot like him needs a dose of varg

>>5377879
> labor vouchers don't circulate
So why would I want one?

>You should major in sociology then and make your case then. I'd like read it.

You really need sociology to tell you that dickface at mcdonalds wants to provide you with a hamburger less than you want to eat a hamburger (unless he is being paid to do so)?

Socialism gives the power to some centralized body (unless you manage to have an entirely egalitarian commune - which won't work because we organize into hierarchies depending on competence) to distribute labor and goods. It decides where labor is needed and goods are needed. The state does not allow you to work at whatever you like, as it has a set amount of goods/services it must provide. If it did let you decide what you did with your labor, then easy, fun jobs would be taken up by nearly everyone, and hard/risky/unrewarding jobs would go undone. This would lead to many essential goods and services not being produced. This would be bad and people would die. So it shouldn't do this.

Instead, it would be forced to decide for everyone where they should be providing their labor. That is certain to put at least one (if not nearly all) individual into a position where they feel that the goods/services/intangible satisfaction from labor are not sufficient reward for that labor.

If you have the choice to do what you want to do, people will neglect hard/dangerous/undesirable tasks that are essential to the functioning of society. If you don't have this choice, then the state is deciding what your occupation is. If they decide what your occupation is, they are determining that your labor is worth the output of that occupation. They are making the decision for you of what your time/labor is worth.

>>5368398
Rare.

>>5372123
There's new first year college students every year, and this fresh supply feels the need to tell the rest of us what sheeple we are.

>>5371418
>There is no community anymore thanks to your kind. Nobody really gives two shits if you live or die, because you're just another shifting face within this international hotel known as earth
This hurts.

>>5379353
>>5380320
>>5380434
>>5381619
>tfw I spend 5 hours spoonfeeding /pol/tards and they still can't give a coherent, non-fallacious argument against socialism

So this is the power of classcucks...

>>5371418
>Communism is so unbelievably unnatural

*blocks your path*

>>5373520
Well my point wasn't that there is an inherent flaw in socialism just that its own method of imperialism is weaker than that of the capitalism method. The fact that communist revolutions occurred in underdeveloped countries itself is large theoretical problem in Marxism and while it may save face for the theory it still demonstrates that attempts to create a communist state in an pre-industrial or early industrial nation at best could not be done and so what examples we have of communism are still failures even after they industrialized at great cost.

I do not think so called Capitalist imperialists are the soul reason for the failure of communism. Communism failed partly because of the geo-political realities that faced the rulers when they came into power and because of the inherent flaws of the dictators that came to rule those countries.

When the soviets inherited the Russian Empire it didnt stop becoming an Empire it was imperialism with the window dressing of socialist propaganda. They quelled other communist uprisings that differed from the party line of the Bolshiveks and even subjugated anti-colonial movements in their Asian territories that were headed by Muslims seeking to found a socialist that is amenable to their own social practices. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan itself was a blunder where they came in to assist a Soviet puppet ruler who was not accepted by the majority of the populace so much so that two third of the Afghani army defected because they resented the communist dictatorship. This was a war of incredible brutality on the part of the Soviet union to ensure the preservation of their own imperialism in Asia to prevent America from gaining the upper hand just as the Tsars had before them.

>>5382373
Oh man the irony
Kys

>>5382373
You've been here for 5 fucking hours debating capitalism on 4chan?

>>5369358
there was only one way socilialism ever worked and its called national socialism

it only ended because of judea attacking germany

>>5376907
The irony is that capitalism is how humans act naturally, whereas socialism is an artificial way of living. Humans are greedy.

>>5367131
TOP KEK, I hope he goes bankrupt

>>5383148
it is not you retard tribalism is the natural basic form

>>5372979
You do realize Marx Himself demanded a central bank that controls all the credit right?

>>5383207
So primitive communism?

>>5383207
>tribalism is the natural basic form

So capitalism

>>5372979
Szabo, Wright, Finney, and the rest of cypherpunks were all adherents to some form of Austrian school economic ideals as were the early adopters of bitcoin and it seems to be the case for most adopters to this day .

>>5383298
yeah retard they sure had money inside their little communities (not)

you capitalism advocates are just as annoying and irritating as the marxist shitstains

because of your fucking piece of shit capitalism our european homeland is getting overrun with cheap migrant workers that are brought in to replace the local population and make a dumb slave race

>>5383275
i wouldnt call it exactly communism

at best i would call it "national" communism

just looking out for your own people and not beeing forced together with dirty niggers and muslims like marx wants

>>5383368
Sure, but where does Marx say he wants to force different races together?

>>5383409
borders have no place in a marxist world

globalism is a direct product out of that

how will you prevent muslim rats going to your home without having any sort of border where you built fortifications?

i know capitalism is the driving force behind the "refugee crisis" right now but dont try to tell me a communist system in that sense would be any less globalist shit

>>5371270
WTF your thread was interesting but it got derailed by this /pol/ brainlets

MAKE THIS THREAD GREAT AGAIN

>>5383546
*these

>>5383546
>another criminal advocater for a mixed slave race for the rich

how do you sleep criminal scum?

>>5367835

>>5371065
That fucking picture lmao.
"It hasn't collapsed yet but as we intellectuals know it should have, if only capitalism didn't skyrocket countries into the first world so they have a greater ability to influence the nations around them and make people flee from our stone age tier communist shit holes."

>>5383657
Well and comfy on my gains. I'm not a slave of the rich but I'm not rich either (yet). I'll be one day.

>>5383741
>be capitalist society
>import migrants because they work for less
>migrants are now rhe majority
great system

>>5383772
you wont be shit and if you are european you wont even have a homeland anymore dumb rat

people like you are part of the problem and should be killed

>>5383801
If you really believe all that shit you should be homeless, otherwise you're just a total contradiction. Enjoy living under the bridges, fucker.

>>5367106
Holy shit! These people are fucking insufferable.

>WAAAAAH IT'S CRASHING FUCK CRYPTO FUCK YOU MUM AND DAD FUCK GOD

next day
>YEAH NIGGUH LEMME SECURE DEM BAGS