[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/cgl/ - Cosplay & EGL


View post   

File: 42 KB, 465x553, BDdcj.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7242965 No.7242965 [Reply] [Original]

Mama, I can't sleep...


Can you tell me a story about what /cgl/ was like back in the day?

>> No.7242988

>>7242965
>mama
holy fuck, that is the second ugliest thing must've shoved out my vagina. I don't remember fucking a kangaroo.

>> No.7243011

>>7242988
That's a horrible thing to say about your son.

>> No.7243015
File: 506 KB, 1437x1881, 0QITlpi.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7243015

>>7242988
Honey, I'm home.

>> No.7243017

>>7243015
Aussies sure like their roids. Even the fucking kangaroos. Zyzz would be proud.

>> No.7243165
File: 19 KB, 320x240, 1263350325747.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7243165

>>7243015
Why am I suddenly wet?

>> No.7243470

>>7243165
>tfw suddenly have the urge to masturbate to a jacked kangaroo

>> No.7243478
File: 1.27 MB, 440x500, 1372206461614.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7243478

this thread is so cute

>> No.7243479

what the fuck is happening in this thread

>> No.7243495

>>7243479
furries happened

>> No.7243497

There was no law my child. There was just Miyu, Kipi, FranDan, and jealous fatties. It was a wild and unsettled frontier.

>> No.7243630
File: 57 KB, 600x450, 1270538803856.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7243630

>>7243015
> WHAT THE FUCKING SHIT AM I LOOKING AT?!

Babby kanga, /cgl/ used to be a wildland of drama. But not the kind of drama you see now. No, babby. It used to be the quippy, snarky tripfag drama and consistent influx of hilarious loli_secrets discussions. Loli_secrets was so much juicier than behind the bows. Personal drama was tolerated, even revered.

Speaking of it is making me sad, babby kanga. If only you could have experienced those days. You would have jumped for joy.

I just saw a "you gag you lose" thread though so I'm heading over there. There is still hope for this board.... maybe.

>> No.7243656

>>7243630
>Loli_secrets was so much juicier than behind the bows. Personal drama was tolerated, even revered.

I wish there was a way to get the old Loli_secrets back, it's a shame they got deleted before I got into Lolit.

Whyyy did I miss this
Why is btb slowly dyin

>> No.7243671

I haven't been here long, either. 4chan is known to be a cesspool of trolls, so why exactly did this board have to clean up the drama? Did it start getting out of hand, crazies sending death threats and showing up at people's homes kind of shit?

>> No.7243680

>>7243656
BtB isn't really dying, people used to say the same thing about LS, drama isn't constant and it tends to ebb and flow like the tide: you can assume that the tide is out right now but im sure it will come roaring back in around january.

The LS was pretty good though and i won't debate that.

>> No.7243682

>>7243630
I heard that pictures of flan were spammed. True?

(Btw, why are you using a photo that's obviously shooped?)

>> No.7243684

>>7243671
combination of a bunch of REALLY terrible tripfags, /r9k/ sad sacks whining about how women are all terrible, and various other boards showing up and being shitty

>> No.7243688

>>7243682
>(Btw, why are you using a photo that's obviously shooped?)
That's an old school /cgl/ classic.

>> No.7243718

this board used to be amazing
the amount of dramu and shitposting was unreal

>> No.7243739

>>7243718
it was so wonderful

>> No.7243744

This is the board you asked for

You all cried to moot you wanted better moderation, well here you go

>> No.7243746

>>7243165
To be fair, he's a very sultry looking kangaroo.

>> No.7243885

>>7243744
Not all of us did. Lies.

>>7243656
I still can't deal with the fact l_s is gone. Usually I screencap things, but I went on an internet break (seriously) for a while and when I came back, suddenly it was "behind the bows is updated!" and when I asked what the fuck that was, all I heard was that some bitch threw a hissyfit about copyright for images and so a mod deleted fucking everything. The whole community is gone, and apparently no cache of it exists at all.

>> No.7243912

>>7243718
The drama was bad but I do think we lost a lot of personality. It seems we run the same 10 topics now when before you would get those really good/fun threads that come out of nowhere and got everyone's attention

>> No.7244038
File: 111 KB, 1014x534, now kiss.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7244038

Impact 0: /cgl/ is a new board. I don't know what the board was like then because I wasn't around for it.

Impact 1.0: Kipi, FranDan, Miyu, shitposting on "famous" and "popular" cosplayers. Lots of idol worship. Glorious Kipi floods. Lots of bitching about Kipi's (adorable) snaggletooth

Impact 1.2: Holy shit tripfags are a thing? See Impact 1, but with the occasional tripfag popping in and saying that they know (famous cosplayer) personally. Occasional scandal about n00ds, who does porn, and Yaya Han's implants

Impact 2.0: Tripfag central. Lolita slowly being introduced to the board. We had awful tripfag circlejerk threads where a bunch of glorified tripfags came in an had IM-like conversations with each other. A dark time.

Impact 2.1: Weird growing pains. Now cosplayers have to start sharing space with lolitas. Everyone is frantically figuring out how to "save" /cgl/. Fortunately, avatarfags like ultros kept things kind of light, along with the slow emergence of characters such as fakebois (aki) and people like Pikachubelle or whatserface. Also Usagi Kou.

Impact 2.3: Lolita has a growing presence, maybe even some regular threads. Drama targeting individuals was probably highest at this time. People came up with elaborate plans to take down particularly prominent dramawhores but of course they never really came to fruition.

>continued
>pic kind of related

>> No.7244045
File: 973 KB, 498x249, 1374697435088.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7244045

>>7244038

Impact 3.0: Lolitas begin targeting individuals. I think Kotakoti started popping up around this time. Also a lot of nitpicking of "itas" and discussing more stuff from the lj comms. Cosplayers are kind of at this weird middling point, but at least some "general" threads like Help threads and Power Hours started happening, so technically more cosplay was happening. Enter Jessica Nigiri and the "Grl Gamer" debates.

Impact 3.1 (current stage): See Impact 3.0 but with more tumblr and less drama because it's being purged out now. Instead of drama targeting individuals, drama happens around discussing "larger issues" such as women in video games and basically stuff that tumblr likes to talk about. Lots of series-specific generals now, possibly spearheaded by Homestuck which had gotten huge in 3.0, so a need to "quarantine" them to their own threads began. Other either obscure or too-popular series started following suit

Impact 3.2: ????

>> No.7244053
File: 1.22 MB, 268x209, partywithelmo.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7244053

>>7244038
>>7244045
TLDR

>> No.7244070
File: 51 KB, 712x1072, 1387254349500.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7244070

>>7244053
Don't ignore our cherished history.

>> No.7244107

>>7244045
How is there no mention of pixyteri?

>> No.7244113

>>7244107
Sorry, I blanked. There's also no mention of Ashley, that orange of d00m chick, and a whole host of others, though admittedly PT is by far the biggest and brightest. I didn't want to go into too much detail, but mostly I just blanked.

>> No.7244114

>>7244038
lol why kipi is not a thing anymore?

>> No.7244122

I remember a distinct drop in quality around the time maguma and massa d luffy started posting regularly under trips. Basically the huge trip boom sort of shit on everything. God, that was probably 07 or 06.

I miss the Kipi and rarer but just as special, kurt spammers.
Also, Kipi's dad.

>> No.7244320
File: 178 KB, 800x600, 1233499467518.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7244320

>>7243682
The flan was a thing. GIGA PUDDI!

Oh old /cgl/. This image used to be a thing, and I don't know why.

>> No.7244321

>>7244122
>Masa and Maguma
That peaked in '08. They started posting in late '07 at the earliest.

>>7242965
The board was created in early 2006, and from 2006-2008 Miyu and Kipi reigned supreme. There was also a lot of Francesca Dani, Adella, Saya, Yaya Han, PikminLink, and famous cosplayer dramu generals.

In 2009-2010 Miyu quit cosplaying and /cgl/ lost interest in Kipi/FranDan/etc, so it transitioned to PT, Ashley, Jessica Nigri, and Dakota Rose until the drama ban was instituted last year.

>> No.7244329

>>7244320
Hey, Hypnocrotch. Wasn't he a cutie?

>> No.7244333

>>7244321
>>7244122
Yeah, I started posting like early fall of 2007.

2009-2011 were wonderful years of cgl in my opinion.

>> No.7244341

>>7244333
I personally think 2007-2010 were the best. After 2010 the new generation of tripfags and the new generation of "famous" cosplayers (like JNig) changed things in a way that I didn't like at all, and everything has gotten worse from there. I'd say 2008 was the golden year for cosplay.

>> No.7244343

Does anyone remember Mika & Hobbes?

>> No.7244344

>>7244114
She stopped cosplaying and started taking commission so there wasn't really any new pics to post therefore ppl lost interest. I think she still cosplays today every now and then.

I miss when 'Doing the FranDan' was a thing. And ppl tried to have a meet at AX to all pose like her and the con banned it or something? Also loved when ppl called her out for not making her costumes and she posted pictures on her cos.com of a fully finished glove with a paint brush by it as a WIP.

>> No.7244345

>>7244341
New gen trips weren't all bad, but most of the 100% unproductive and non contributing trips were the downfall :/ and like 90 Pixyteri threads a day was fucking ridiculous and should have been an auto bannable offense. JAYZUS

>> No.7244347

>>7244344
The frandan is forever relevant until the day I die.

>> No.7244351

>>7244343
I vaguely remember Mika and I remember Hobbes is a tool. Weren't there like three asian male tripfags who were total douches?

>> No.7244355

Once upon a time self aggrandizing attention whores self posting was banned.
And /cgl/ lived happily ever after.

>> No.7244354

>>7244351
There was that guy who got Kamina tattoos, I can't remember his name though.

>> No.7244379

>>7244355
>thinking this is happily after after
Why even lie to yourself like that? You're terrible.

>> No.7244387

>>7244354
OH MAN! LOFI!
I remember meeting him at a katsucon and he was one of the smelliest fucking humans I have ever had the misfortune of meeting.

>> No.7244389

>>7244321
The board was created in early 2006

I could have sworn we were around in 05...
I could also just be fusing cgl memories with cosplayfucks memories...

>> No.7244394

>>7244389
I thought it as earlier as well, but 2006 sounds about right since I was already 21. I remember getting on this forum not too long after high school.

>> No.7244580

>>7244387

Lofi has no sense of smell so wouldn't know if hr stank

A weird fact about him I remember

>> No.7244875

>>7244580

Even if this was ture... Take a shower every 1 or 2 days, use a deodorant, and maybe some pefume, BAM, no smell.
This is common sense, even with no sense of smell...?

>> No.7244907

>>7244875
Depending on your living habits, eating habits, and a few other factors, you can generate a distinct smell that even when you shower you just have as a funk. I know a couple friends who are like that. They bathe regularly, they use deodorant, they're hygienic people. They just have a funk.

>> No.7244908

Oh man I miss all the drama we had about PT, Kooters, Venus and Ashley. Those were the best days of my life. I practically stalked those threads for new updates on my favorite dramaqueens and lolcows. I watched that dramaboard fran made (I believe it was Fran) for a while, but it was so quiet and not nearly as awesome as the old /cgl/ days

>> No.7244923
File: 479 KB, 1280x1024, Itachi Reznor Rap Part 1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7244923

>>7244908

Rosechan is your friend.

>> No.7244926

Does anyone else think the board is much better now that we actually have more on topic posts and threads? I can't tell you how many times I hid pixyteri or jnig threads because I simply do not give a shit about them or any other drama. I also hated it when tripfags would invade threads and treat it like a fucking chat room.

I'm here for cosplay and lolita and there's a lot more of it now, which is great!

>> No.7244927
File: 412 KB, 1280x1024, Itachi Reznor Rap Part 2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7244927

>>7244923

>> No.7244928

>>7244923

Superb. Do you have more screendaps?

>> No.7244980

>>7244923
Maaan I remember Reznor. That shit was gold. Needs more A1 steaksauce!

>> No.7244983

Truly, little roo, it was a golden age.

There were tons of shit posters from /fit/, /r9k/ and /soc/ who would often start troll threads designed to raise the hackles of /cgl/'s mostly-female population. Cosplayers and Lolitas alike would foam at the mouth over the carefully engineered misogyny and everyone would get mad.

Then of course, there was glorious tripfag drama. /cgl/ of yore had an abundance of tripfags, all of which were unnecessary human beings. They would post circlejerk threads or derail the rare on-topic board. They would defend each other on the numerous threads anonymous seagulls made about them--there was always some scandal; leaked nudes, stolen moitie chokers or rocky breakups. Tripfags and anons alike would shout abuse at each other and everyone would get mad.

Who can forget the tension between Cosplayers and Lolitas? There was once a time when the tension between the two groups caused people to plead with moot to split them into two boards. Cosplayers would make hate threads about Lolitas and vice versa. Each camp defended itself while pointing the finger at the other and everyone would get mad.

The /cgl/ of olden times was a place where drama reigned supreme--it was actually our name for a brief period. PT, Kotakoti, Venus, Ashley, Aki and Talia were among some of the best and most amusing lulcows in our pastures. Daily threads were made to discuss their faggotry and everyone would get mad.

There were also a great many threads that were only obliquely on topic, a favorite being to draw your last cosplay as a sassy black woman. Now all the above threads are being deleted by our janitor and everyone's getting mad.

The End.

>> No.7244986

>>7244341
09/10 was a good year as that was when the board was just getting into the social aspects and organizing con meetup but didn't go super full blown circlejerk and stayed cosplay related.

I also noticed there were more "fun" thread such as closet cosplay challenges, "in character" threads such us Ulthors, silly joke threads combined with usual drama, progress and image dumps

>> No.7244989

>>7244926
I didn't mind that there was always a PT thread, but the fact that there always seemed to be at least 3 PT threads was overkill.

>> No.7244995

>>7244345
>>7244341
>>7244343
Hobbes, Dildos and Coffee were the trio that popped up. Hobbes constant posting was really bad as during the time you were able to check the number of posts tripfags made and in the few months Hobbes was here, he was already out posting people like Maguma. He was one of the reasons why people asked for moderation as the minute Hobbes posted in a thread, it would fill up with troll replies and other users would avoid it like the plague.

>> No.7245002

>>7244926
Topic and information wise its better but now the only difference we have with cosplay.com is we don't force user registration. Back then we had a great balance of information, silly threads and drama. During the time of the great moderator purge, Drama was rampant but now we lost the silly/fun threads and the board's personality as a result

>> No.7245003

>>7243744
No one really wanted this regime we have now of NO DRAMA NONE OF THE TIME. It was more, "Hey, Moot, the PT threads are getting kind of out of hand. We don't need three threads on the front page," and a few people took that to mean, "We don't want to talk about any efamous cosplayer/jfash person ever. The board should only be cosplay and lolita discussion hugfest."
Hell, a few people have said just a contained dramu general would be okay, but we can't even have that. It's why /cgl/ has become so PC; if you even mention someone by name, the thread/your post gets deleted.

>> No.7245007

>>7245003
Yeah, I wish there was a happy medium. We've also been invaded by tumblr cancer.

>> No.7245094

>>7244983
I miss it. The lack of lolcows made me migrate to /vp/. Now I browse /cgl/ only occasionally.

>> No.7245119
File: 183 KB, 600x600, kawaii boi.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7245119

Man, does anyone else remember NCN?

>> No.7245121

>>7245003

you'd think moot would have learned after what happened to /tg/

>> No.7245126

>>7245121

Moot has admitted to being stubborn but I wish he would listen to the majority instead of a vocal minority.

He's done this shit with other boards and apologized but now it seems like he's being a dick and doing whatever he wants.

>> No.7245129
File: 24 KB, 350x263, all mad.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7245129

>>7244983
>everyone would get mad
/cgl/ in a nutshell

>> No.7245148

>>7245119
NCN drama got me through some dark times, even if it was probably all fake.
Part of me still hopes it was real, though.

>> No.7245153

>>7245148
Every once in a while I'll read that article about her on ED. It feels like an eternity ago even though it really hasn't been all that long.

>> No.7245173

>>7245126
>doing whatever he wants
>on his own website
It's not like we're members of the board and he's the CEO, Anon, we're just users of a free site.

>> No.7245205

>>7245173
Agreed but the shift from a relaxed-whatever-goes type of board to a nazi no fun allowed type of board really irks me. Moot has done this shit to other boards and he just doesn't seem to care or want to listen.

He'll have another mood swing a year from now and probably fuck up another aspect of another board

>> No.7245337

>>7245153

What's the name of the ED article?

>> No.7245462

>>7245337
It's Neo-Classic Neko I think but ED seems to be downso

>> No.7245549

>>7245462

Thanks! If you have any more ED article recommendation, feel free to leave them here. I lurk ED sometimes but it can be hard if you're not sure what you are looking for.

>> No.7246121

>>7244045
>Impact 3.2: ????

From how things currently look, the board is going to be completely overtaken by lolita and other Jfash with 1 or 2 cosplay threads.

>> No.7246130

>>7244113
I'm quite interested in the Ashley drama! I used to know her, I wonder what happened.

>> No.7246389

>>7245173
It's his own website but he created it for an audience.

>> No.7246519

>>7244038
Here for Impact 1.0, but I didn't start tripping until 2.3

>> No.7246617
File: 43 KB, 762x580, 1261984754428.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7246617

>>7244928

Not really unfortunately. Time for 4chanarchives.

>> No.7246735

>>7244320
Oh man that was old, makes me think back to the tripfag spreadsheet. While some people accused it of being circlejerky, it at least listed the active posters and who to avoid and who to listen to.

>> No.7246796

>>7243656
i feel the same way, anon. i heard ls had lots of funny shit on it, but dahleeted

>> No.7246799

>>7246121
fine by me

>> No.7246837

>>7246121
I always laugh when I see comments like this. It's fairly half and half. Has been for the past couple years now. Rather than Jfash taking over, all that's happened is it evened up from a cosplay majority.

The only cosplay threads we no longer have really are the lolcow ones, and if that's all you're complaining about I can't seem to muster the sympathy. Lolitas lost their lolcows too.

>> No.7247138

I've started coming to 4chan in general after Katsucon 2008. I was known as Anonymous of College Park, MD until I was outed by Kasai as Jkid, and it stuck there every since. I was there during Impact 1.2 and beyond. Mostly as a observer and as a resident photographer of the board, even though I only attend DC area cons. Most of the threads I've archived from the board came from Impact 1.2 and beyond, but from the threads I can confirm that 2009 and 2011 are the golden years of /cgl/

Here's a fun fact about the drama threads and the like, that provision of the /cgl/ rules were not actually enforced until recently around 2013 primarily due to team4chan's staffing levels and moderation priorities. Before then, they've been a regular feature of the board. During the time it was the era of cosplayers and lolitas, with lolitas slowly becoming more dominant.

Now a days, I'm a 25 year old government and politics graduate who occasionally archives 4chan threads and anime cons, and trying to get a decent job at a IT company.

Oh yes, I must mention that the YS 4chan, the including /cgl/ archives, are now available here:

http://purl.stanford.edu/tf565pz4260

>> No.7247156
File: 9 KB, 190x159, 1378070778019.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7247156

>>7246617
its dead jim

>> No.7247215

I dislike how /cgl/ is today.
It used to be such a silly, fun board with informative threads too.

>> No.7247383

>>7245119
Was this the chick who stuck a pen up her ass and decided that liking anal meant she MUST really be a kawaii uke boy?

>> No.7247406
File: 255 KB, 1023x819, 1315554800662.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7247406

>>7247383
Yep.

>> No.7247475
File: 159 KB, 641x719, LAPDANCE.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7247475

Oh man. I seriously remember making a bowl of popcorn a few times while browsing cgl and seeing the Yaya, Limebarb, Heidi, Frandan, Lillyxandra and Adella threads.

>> No.7247528

>>7247475
oh my god LIMEBARB! what happened to her?

>> No.7247536

>>7247528
Limebarb is the same as lemonbrat, right. They were at a smallish con I was at recently, but I only told my friend they were a scam

>> No.7247581
File: 88 KB, 462x777, 4839834958.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7247581

>>7244995

>> No.7247583

>>7245119
I want an update post on her. I wonder how she is doing now?

Post it in a weeaboo horror story thread so it won't look like we're singling a person out and spamming the board with too much shit.

>> No.7247584

>>7247536
Yeah, they're the same, but "Lemonbrat" made a post on DA years ago trying to claim she wasn't the same person as Limebarb.

>> No.7247599

Can we have a /cgl/ Where Are They Now General: Surgeons Warning Edition.

>> No.7247604
File: 69 KB, 456x439, Mood_whiplash.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7247604

>>7245119
Haha, yes. I never heard the voice thing in pic related.

>> No.7247607

>>7247604
Didn't she get kicked out of this con? That's how the story goes if I recall...

>> No.7247628
File: 2.71 MB, 320x272, 1386620556461.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7247628

>>7247604
Please elaborate on this. I'm dying here.

>> No.7247634

>>7247604
AHAHAHAHAHA!

>> No.7247646

Are there any other sites where I can find drama from /cgl/? I remember there was that ultimate faggotry site, but it's gone now.

>> No.7247658
File: 30 KB, 473x303, 1387421208352.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7247658

I want to access her tumblr, but it's got a password. :( I remember she once made this post about how mad she was about people misinterpreting her or something? Anyhow, in response to it she made a comic about some ladyboys who discover magic white light power or some shit. Her comment was something along the lines of, "I NAMED THE MANGA "WHITE POWER" TO SHOW YOU BAKA THAT WORDS HAVE MORE THEN ONE MEANING!!!"
I should have screencaped it.

>> No.7247666
File: 89 KB, 529x783, 1276266505664.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7247666

>>7247658
For you anon

>> No.7247679
File: 59 KB, 560x600, 1358183169001.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7247679

>>7247666
YES! Thank you.

>> No.7247680

>>7247666
This has to be an elaborate troll.

>> No.7247685
File: 569 KB, 529x427, 5456044269.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7247685

>>7247666
>Cardcators

>> No.7247765
File: 194 KB, 730x1095, 1321621426337.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7247765

I miss the old days.

>> No.7247770

>>7247765
what's she up to these days? i've heard she's got her shit together but i can't find her blog

>> No.7247804

>>7247666
oh lawd

>> No.7249412

>>7247765
that's not even old

>> No.7249453

>>7247666
Gotta agree with her against on how annoying tumblrtards are.

>> No.7249456

>>7247406
>Please do not steal
My sides.

>> No.7249460

>>7247475
What's going on here? Geez

>> No.7249538

>>7245119
Does anyone know the password to her tumblr? It's password protected now. I'm so upset.

>> No.7249552

>>7242988
you've fucked a lot worse before

>> No.7249634

>>7247406
Wow, I can't believe I missed out on that.
>regret
Does anyone have any links?

>> No.7249655
File: 217 KB, 1247x635, KrissyHate.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7249655

I wonder what ever happened to Krissy.

>> No.7249914

>>7247138
FUCK OFF JKID HOLY SHIT

>> No.7253373

>>7247138
Is it true that you play with your balls?

>> No.7253665

>>7245119
Oh jesus, I remember! That was before I started going to /cgl/ and was an /x/phile. Loved reading that crazy shit on ED. I didn't know she was still active on the internet at all holy shit >>7247604

>> No.7260092

bump

>> No.7260100

>>7244122
>Also, Kipi's dad.

What's the story behind this?