/ck/ - Food & Cooking

>>11150728
They are americans. If they can sell you plastic cheese they will

>>11150728
because

>>11150728
>Is it just taken for granted that the average customer of Wisconsin cheese knows nothing about cheese?

Yes. Of course. Sure WI has some good cheeses, and even a few great ones. But let's not pretend that the overwhelming majority of their production is cheap shitty crap.

That's the problem with the US cheese industry in general. There are various excellent cheeses made here. But the standard aka average is awful. Walk into a well stocked supermarket and the garbage cheese outnumbers the good stuff by 100:1.

because americans dont know or care about PDO
t. i dont care

>>11150728
>be 1800s European Cheesemaker
>move to American midwest after you liberal brethren get defeated in the revolutions of 1848
>continue making the exact same cheese
>150 years later some fucking bureaucrats in the EU say you should not be legally allowed to make that same cheese anymore in order to protect corporations in their districts

Or are you simply mad about the way in which the English language so readily uptakes foreign words?

>>11150782
>the exact same cheese
You've never actually had cheese that wasn't Kraft Singles, have you?

>be European
>go to the local Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurant
>later learn that the chicken was in fact fried in the store and not in Kentucky
>get mad and post about it on the internet

I had some Limburger cheese made in Wisconsin the other day. It was good

>>11150784
there is nothing about the process of making parmesan that cannot be done outside Parma

>>11150758
It's funny because early on most people who care about cheese have learned that if you're buying a US domestic cheese, you can pretty much rule out quality if it uses the same name as a PDO product from Europe.

The cheese makers here who actually give a shit about cheese give it their own original names because they don't want it to be confused for anything else.

The shitty ones in the Midwest just slap on a "famous" name they heard about once, because the only alternative is to sell it to the Department of Defense at a slightly lower price.

>>11150792
That's probably true, and yet it apparently has yet to be done successfully in Wisconsin. Also thank you for confirming you have never tasted cheese that didn't come out of a spray can.

>>11150758
Its kind of like beer, though not to the same extent. The base tier stuff in America is super cheap and super mediocre, but really fucking good stuff is also pretty easy to get. Now Americans have much better beer than anywhere else in the world, which isn't true of cheese, but its a similar trend

>>11150728
Cheese industry is just as bad as the wine industry. Blind taste cheese and a $100 cheese tastes like a $20 cheese. Same with wine. Only people who think differently are the ones being Jew'd their money away.

>>11150798
>nd yet it apparently has yet to be done successfully in Wisconsin
What are you referring to? You are just as likely to find a random good parmesan in Wisconsin as in Italy. Now if you are referring to California style Kraft powder Parmesan you could actually make a point.

There is literally nothing wrong with base tier Wisconsin parmesan such as that pictured in the OP

>>11150798
Not really though, there are plenty of good American cheesemakers that kept making the stuff they made before immigrating to America, especially in Wisconsin. There are also plenty of really good novel inventions. Both are good and important, this is a false, and baseless dichotomy you are trying to sell

>>11150792
>there is nothing about the process of making parmesan that cannot be done outside Parma
Correct.

But the simple fact is that most of the competing producers choose not to copy the same method, rather they cut corners to make a cheaper, worse tasting, product instead.

I'll keep buying PDO Parm Reg until someone bothers to make a real copy that doesn't cut corners. Could they do this? Absoloutely. Has it been done? Not to my knowledge. I taste copies all the time and they're never as good.

>>11150798
>The cheese makers here who actually give a shit about cheese give it their own original names because they don't want it to be confused for anything else.
That right there. 100% true.
I've had many fantastic cheeses that were made in America, that could easily compete with the high end Euro stuff. But they're never named cheddar or parm, etc, they have their own original names.

>>11150798
oh, its random coastie guy who really fucking hates Wisconsin for some reason so he makes up a bunch of dumb and obviously incorrect shit to troll people from Wisconsin or something?

>>11150827
>But the simple fact is that most of the competing producers choose not to copy the same method
Well if that is true, its an entirely different issue
You are just be mad about how the English language works. It uptakes foreign place names to describe things, especially food styles all the time. Its incredibly common. Its just childish pedantry on your part and then you try and associate it with a bunch of unrelated an often false things

>>11150827
>bothers to make a real copy that doesn't cut corners
what corners does a Wisconsin made Parmesan such as the one in the OP cut? Please elaborate

>>11150816
>You are just as likely to find a random good parmesan in Wisconsin
No, you're not. They aren't comparable in the least bit. There are some cheeses from Wisconsin labeled "parmesan" that I would consider tasty (although not by any means great). But tasty or not, there is no resemblance at all. You'd know this if you had ever actually tasted the real thing, even once.

everybody knows parm reg is the best fucking cheese

>>11150807
>Cheese industry is just as bad as the wine industry
Nah, wine is much worse. The difference in quality between a 25th percentile priced wine and a 90 is almost nothing but cheap cheese is at least different than good cheese. Now the difference between a pretty good cheese, and a super expensive cheese, you have an argument there, but its not as broad a problem as it is with wine

>The euros are mad again

>>11150849
Again, what is it about for instance the cheese in the OP that makes it unrecognizable from a similarly marketed cheese made in Italy?

>>11150846
I'm not the guy you're getting angry at, but you could start with the fact that it can be cleanly cut into neat, perfectly intact slices. Also the fact that it's pasteurized. I wouldn't call those "cutting corners" so much as just differences in manufacturing technique and different outcomes.

>>11150865
See >>11150866

>>11150839
There's nothing unique about the English languge in that regard. I travel a lot for work and I see "American" products in other countries which are just as bad a knockoff of our products as our "Cheddar" is a knockoff of the English stuff.

>>11150846
I couldn't tell you, I'm not a cheesemaker, nor do I pretend to be. But the difference in flavor is obvious. One thing I have noticed is that when you buy real Parm Reg the age of the cheese is clearly stated. I.e. 24-month, 36-month, etc. I rarely see that on American copies, so I wonder if they arent aged for far less time? I am also quite sure that most American production is using pasteurized milk.

>>11150866
>but you could start with the fact that it can be cleanly cut into neat, perfectly intact slices
are you looking at an entirely different picture than I am?

>Also the fact that it's pasteurized
There is absolutely nothing about pasteurization that is "cutting corners" or prevents a cheese from being good. There is literally no reason not to pasteurize besides for cheap marketing points

>>11150807
I love these artificial comparisons. $100 cheese? What the fuck even is that?

Even after markups and import duties the most expensive PDO parmigiano-reggiano I've seen was under $30/lb, and the fake wisconsin parm is more like $9/lb. They do not smell or taste in any way similar other than that they are both cheese.

>>11150882
>They do not smell or taste in any way similar
So your strategy is basically to just keep repeating false things and hope people believe you?

A $15/lb Wisconsin Parm is 100% of the time a better decision than a twice as expensive imported one

>>11150880
>are you looking at an entirely different picture than I am?
We're talking about cheeses in general, not just the one in the OP pic.

>>Pasteurized
There is a massive flavor difference between the two. Have you ever compared raw milk with pasteurized milk side-by-side? The difference in flavor is huge, and that extends to the cheese as well.

Now you might argue that the sacrifice is justified for health reasons in the case of milk, but in the case of cheese that is silly.

>>11150880
No, that's just a random doctored photo made by the WIDF, which I downloaded from google image search. For all we know that image is CGI, or painted plaster.

But here's the cheese I just bought, which inspired the thread. It's labeled Belgioso brand. I have never seen PDO parmigiano-reggiano behave like this at all. Not that I'm surprised - I've bought it before, when I want something kind of mild and bland and cheap. But to suggest it resembles the real thing is pants-on-head retarded. Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad cheese, for a pasteurized mild cow's milk cheese. Just, why mislabel it? Why?

>>11150895
So your strategy is just to repeat the lies that were fed to you by the WIDF, which you took at face value because you had no frame of reference, no reason not to take them at their word?

I know it might blow your mind to think that some people out there on the internet aren't living in a weird midwest reality distortion field, but the fact is you sound crazy.

>>11150728
I wouldn't touch anything coming our of Wisconsin that isn't in their traditional wheelhouse, cheddar and Colby. It is not like it is hard to get legit cheese from anywhere in the world so why compromise.

>>11150895
>A $15/lb Wisconsin Parm is 100% of the time a better decision than a twice as expensive imported one

I can pay a dollar fifty more per lb and get genuine 36-month parm reg that wasn't made with castrated milk, so why wouldn't I?

At $30/lb you might have a point.

>>11150897
>We're talking about cheeses in general, not just the one in the OP pic
Oh, I understand that to be true in general, I am just trying to see how you are applying it to "unnamed Wisconsin fake Parmesan", especially considering the one originally posted to illustrate your viewpoint does not look as such

>>11150949
yeah, a dollar or two a pound is negligible, just buy what you like, but basing that decision on where it is from or something as trivial as whether it was pasteurized rather than the actual taste is just dumb

>>11150937
Wisconsin also makes the best America Swiss style cheeses

>>11150937
try this stuff

>>11150969
>pasteurized

>>11150981
again, you should base your cheese opinions on taste, not secondary stuff that doesn't matter.

Are you getting paid by the EU cheese lobby to post here? This sounds like blatant marketing bullshit

>>11150960
I agree 100% that relying on anything other than the price and the taste is dumb.

But that is also the problem: proper, specialist, cheese shops where you can taste samples of various cheeses are rare in the US. The deli counter might let you sample some of the stuff they have out for slicing (i.e. Boar's head and the like) , but you can't sample most of the cheeses they have. So you have no choice but to fall back on other criteria. I can't speak for everyone, but I've bought the American knockoffs many times and been disappointed each time. At a certain point you just give up and focus on what you know works: Euro PDO labels.

But like we mentioned above, the US does have many excellent cheeses which I also buy by name. Cato Corner Hooligan is one of my favorites. Greensward is damn good too, as is everything I've tried from Jasper Hill or Mystic.

>>11150995
>it's the same thing with the same methods!
>oh except those methods, they don't matter
And you know this, because you've tasted so many non-WIDF cheeses, right?

>>11151040
Its the end product that matters, if a :method" doesn't create the flavor then it is not important. Methods only matter in the way in which they effect the final product
>because you've tasted so many non-WIDF cheeses
I don't know what a WIDF cheese is but I have tried plenty of cheeses, I usually buy at least one wedge for snacking each week an intentionally try to buy new to me cheeses both American and European, an when I have been in Europe I have specifically sought out local products (though I have not spent time in every cheese making region)

>>11150995
Pasteurization has a huge effect on the taste, which is the point of mentioning it. When you can't taste free samples of all the cheeses in the supermarket case you have to rely on labeling.

>>11150895
No, you're wrong. I tried a WI pamesan one time when I ran out of the italian imported and it was not even close. It was better than what most amerilards use which is sawdust in a can, but nothing like Parmigiano-Reggiano. I hate the fact americans are perfectly willing to accept, and even promote, inferior food products because of some kind of misguided, rabid, natsoc, 2 yo toddler emotionalism masquerading as "patriotism."

>>11151068
>Pasteurization has a huge effect on the taste
not if the cheese is made properly

>>11150802
lol you're a hipster craft America beer is no patch on the Real Deal. there is way more to brewing an authentic ale then throwing a load of cocoa powder and far too many hops into an IPA

>>11151072
>misguided, rabid, natsoc, 2 yo toddler emotionalism masquerading as "patriotism."
Funny that you support PDO laws then

>>11150863
don't forget that somebody could put an actual shit on your plate and you wouldn't dare say it was not delicious because it's an American shit and American shits are the greatest in the world. murika

>>11151075
That may or may not be so, but until you show me a pasteurized cheese that tastes indistinguishible from a non-pasteurized cheese, I'll continue to treat it as important

Even yogurt shows a huge difference in taste from something as simple as when the pasteurization takes place. There are yogurt brands that pasteurize and culture the yogurt in one step. There are others that buy pre-pasteurized milk, and then make the yogurt by re-heating it. There's a clear difference in taste there too. Note though that this is whole milk unsweetened yogurt. I suspect WIDF thinks yogurt is "for faggots" and anything that isn't pre-sweetened and blasted with artificial fruit flavors would induce loud gagging noises.

>>11151077
>America beer is no patch on the Real Deal
I have no idea what this means literally but assuming you are saying it is bad this is a really dumb sentiment. America makes the vast majority of the best beer in the world, if you think its all or even more of a fraction of it is just filled with weird adjunct you obviously don't know what you are talking about. Also hipster? Are you living in 2003? Where in America is good beer hipster? its normie as shit for post-college men

>>11150895
murika....

>>11151092
there is literally no common cheese style that cannot equally be made with both pasteurized and unpasteurized milk, it has nothing to do with it

>>11151075
It's clear you have no idea what you're talking about.

It's clear that the milk doesn't have to be pasterurized to make a good cheese. There are plenty of excellent ones that are made with pastuerized milk. But trying to copy an unpasteurized cheese using pasteurized milk is a recipe for failure. That's why US "Brie" sucks compared to a proper Brie de Meaux. Even the "imported from France" Brie we get here in the states sucks, because it was made with pasteurized milk specifically for export.

>>11150976
I have had that. It's pretty darn good.

>>11151092
>I suspect WIDF thinks yogurt is "for faggots"
What? You suspect arbitrary inflammatory things that do not possibly tie back in to any previous post? I have never once heard the concept that people from Wisconsin think yogurt is gay, and am genuinely curious how you are possibly trying to tie this to anything else

>>11151102
You keep saying "can be, could be, in theory I bet", and yet the examples we've reviewed have shown that in practice, the facts that you care calling irrelevant are extremely relevant.

I'm open to the idea that Wisconsin makes some good cheese. I'm open to the idea that someone could clone PDO parmigiano-reggiano in Calcutta or Oaxaca or Tierra del Fuego and not even an expert could tell the difference.

But so far, experience has shown that when a product uses the name of a PDO product, without qualifying for PDO status, it's just a cash grab by an opportunist who rightly expects the average buyer to lack any personal experience that would allow them to make the judgment for themselves.

>>11151115
I am definitely not arguing that cheese should be pasteurized, but autistically focusing on this one aspect when it plays such an insignificant role is tiring

>>11151125
>and yet the examples we've reviewed have shown that in practice, the facts that you care calling irrelevant are extremely relevant.
You mean the fact in that you keep repeating this statement and not basing it on any actual reference to real cheese and just stuff imagined in your head?

Iberico is the Queen of cheese

>>11151125
>that when a product uses the name of a PDO product, without qualifying for PDO status
The PDO status does not apply to Parmesan, only to Parmigiano-Reggiano. I agree, you typically do not see good producers saying they make PDO cheese without qualifying where it is actually being made. But the idea that American cheesemakers should not use common style names for cheeses is dumb. Cheese should be described with the common English words that describe the style, not based on the whims of foreign bureaucrats and the corporations paying them

>>11151126
The point is the role is not insignificant, rather it's HUGE. Have you ever tasted raw and pasteurized milk side by side? It's like comparing vinegar with wine.

>>11151027
I noticed this in the USA and was really miserable about it. I don't understand calling a deli a deli if they won't allow you to sample the foods in the way a good spirits house would allow you to sample the Spirits. in even the most backward of European countries in even the most corporate supermarket chains it is normal to ask for a sample of cheese before buying and not just 4 speciality cheeses. I like to consider myself something of a cheese connoisseur and I am also something of an advanced amateur cheese maker, living next to a good Dairy herd and keeping my own flock of goats. travelling around USA trying to find some decent strong cheese was very disappointing in fact most things were disappointing except for the steak houses. I came across several brie and camembert in America and it all tasted like Dairylea. the cheddars have I rather rubbery texture instead of the Salty crumbly texture that I know well from the Cheddar Gorge. the Canadians however managed to get Cheddar spot on and even import large quantities to the UK. maybe it's their climate. if there's one thing that Americans can never be forgiven for it is the creation of craft slices. these have now infected the entire world thanks to McDonald's and many people are growing up thinking this yellow plastic is actual cheese. kill it with fire

>>11151132
So far, as you requested, I mentioned that I was comparing 24-month PDO parmigiano-reggiano against Wisconsin "parmesan", both in general terms and in reference to the specific piece of cheese I bought today, at a grocery store, took home, and tasted.

I took a picture of that cheese to illustrate one of the myriad differences that make it completely unlike the cheese it's trying to masquerade as. This picture was taken to address your concern that the conversation was insufficiently based on real-world cases.

And apparently, as per the usual WIDF propaganda routine, you're still ignoring facts that don't align with your agenda, and trying to portray your opponent as crazy and biased and lacking any evidence.

For the next part of your routine you'll accuse me of having a grudge against Wisconsin, perhaps I'm a European/Californian who hates America and has literally never even set foot here.

>>11151152
>The point is the role is not insignificant, rather it's HUGE
I just don't buy this. Show me two otherwise similarly made cheeses where the pasteurization sets them apart. This just isn't a problem or a thing

>>11151152
>Have you ever tasted raw and pasteurized milk side by side? It's like comparing vinegar with wine.
I think you are confusing drinking super fresh local grass fed milk with corporate milk. It also happens to be pasteurized, but that is not the reason they taste difference. Be careful when you confound multiple variables

>>11151075
you have just shot any arguments you have down in flames and proved that you know nothing about bromatology

>>11151156
There are shit tons of excellent American chedder cheeses. You must have just not been doing a very good job picking the right ones, because yeah the base tier cheddar is super mediocre

>>11151092
>this.
milk contains enzymes and many types of enzymes and different levels of heating affect how these enzymes behave and how they break down the proteins amino acids sugars and other carbohydrates and change them into other compounds. exactly the same as brewing beer where the same malt can go through different mash heating programmes to create many different styles of beer with completely different flavours

>>11151162
>I just don't buy this.
I'm asking you if you're ever tasted the two personally. If you have, you know what I'm talking about. If you haven't, then you're a virgin trying to discuss sex and you need to get experience before joining the conversation.

>>Show me two otherwise similarly made cheeses
I mentioned a great example above. Compare the "Made in France" Brie you can buy in the US (President brand is a common one, another is Ile de France) with Brie de Meaux. Those are well known cheeses, not some wierd obscure stuff.

>>11151174
if you are making cheese properly you are not relying on random ass microbes in the milk, you have very specific cultures you want in there

>>11151161
no just a redditor obsessed with pretentious foodie bullshit. nice double spacing btw

>>11151094
yes America makes all of the best beers in the world and American teams always win the Superbowl because America is the greatest now ask mummy for your bottle and go to bed like a good boy

>>11151152
Enjoy the listeria trendster

>>11151161
>For the next part of your routine you'll accuse me of having a grudge against Wisconsin
dude, you constantly use the term WIDF, that pretty clearly speaks for itself. Also you have been pretty clear that you are from the East Coast and no one has ever suggested you are Canadian

>>11151203
Well that's a fresh new take. Glad you could mix things up, you were getting predictable.

>>11151140
queen fag.

>>11151199
>I mentioned a great example above. Compare the "Made in France" Brie you can buy in the US (President brand is a common one, another is Ile de France) with Brie de Meaux. Those are well known cheeses, not some wierd obscure stuff.
Are you seriously telling me that those taste different because of the pasteurization process?

>>11151218
epig :DDDDD XD can we get 100 likes?

>>11151224
I like how whenever anyone asks you if you've actually tasted A vs B side by side, you dodge the question. I'm not the guy asking you about brie, btw. But I've had this exact same exchange with you countless times, and you always manage to avoid actually answering, and we both know why that is.

>>11151224
I'm not sure what else the difference would be, unless they are lying on the packaging, which I doubt. There might be other differences in the milk, but the red herring is the pasteurization.

>>11151204
America certainly makes most of the best beer in the world, even many traditional styles from other places. No other country has or has ever had nearly as robust a brewing culture as the US currently has. There are like 7000 breweries making dozens of recipes each, and more people seeking out traditional and new styles than anywhere else in the world.

Have you tried any beer from actual American breweries?

>>11151237
I have had it, they don't taste exactly the same. To somehow conflate this with the pasteurization process is unwarranted

>>11151169
I have. I own a nice set of pasteurizing jugs that set the milk inside a water jacket. they are common here everybody owns one. people pasteurized their milk because it comes straight from the dairy man and keeps longer pasteurized and is also safer for the old people and babies and the ill people. goat milk has an even shorter shelf life and starts to get funny taint to it after a few days. I can assure you that taking exactly the same raw milk and tasting it alongside itself after pasteurisation there is a massive difference in taste and sugars are massively increased while the lactic acid is diminished. lactic acid being one of the Major flavours in cheese I think we can all see where this is going

>>11151260
Conflate? Are you quite sure you understand what that means, Wisconsi-kun?

>>11151169
The milk could be a factor too.

But I'd imagine that if I mentioned the difference in the taste of the milk based on what the cows were fed people would probably REEEE even harder than my talking about pasteurization.

How is it possible that somone could believe that milk quality matters but pasteurization does not?

>>11151264
um, thats precisely what conflate means
also, I don't understand what your redditor Japaneses references mean but thats not important

>>11151265
>but pasteurization does not?
because I have had many great pasteurized and unpasteurized cheeses

>>11151272
My goodness. First the vegetarian thread, and now this one. You guys do understand that you can google words, right? That there is no need to just make up your own meanings, like they did in ye old tymes when people living in valleys went for decades without hearing an outsider speak the local slang?

>>11151202
enzymes are not microbes

>>11150916
Oh, you picked the cheapest Wisconsin cheese you could find. Thats surely indicative of the market in general!

>>11151287
Yeah, it pretty much is. There's a reason Wisconsin dominates the pre-shredded, pre-sliced section and is essentially nowhere to be found in the good cheese section. They usually toss up these heaps of fake parmesan wedges as loss leaders in some random spot in the store, because they sorta resemble real cheese and can be sold for laughably cheap.

>>11151281
Sorry, I don't care enough to google what reddit meme your japanese stuff is referencing, if its important you can explain it.

But you might want to look up what the word conflate means before accusing someone of using it improperly when it obviously was correct unless you only goal is just to confuse people reading these posts

>>11151299
>and is essentially nowhere to be found in the good cheese section
the fuck are you even talking about. Wisconsin makes plenty of cheap ass, mediocre, mild, cheese, but it also makes more mid and top tier cheese than anyone else

Thats no different than the European bros saying that because Bud Light is bad America doesn't make good beer

>>11150728
They spend tens of millions of dollars in lobbyists to keep the PDO clause out of any trade agreement the United States signs just do that they can keep lying to the consumer.

>>11151298
Which Japanese stuff, you mean calling you Wisconsi-kun? You're pretending to be a 4chan oldfag and you don't understand -kun? GTFO

And no, sorry, but you're wrong about English too.

>>11151302
>it also makes more mid and top tier cheese than anyone else
It's abundantly clear that you only think this is true because your idea of "top tier cheese" is horribly, laughably inaccurate.

>>11151249
yes i have tried many. you might be surprised to hear that there is a fuckton of American beers in all of the European specialist beer shops now. almost every one tastes predictably like American craft beer. tastes like they are trying too hard. too heavy handed on the malt too heavy handed on the hops always trying to make something more and more special. for me it really works although I have had one or two from BrewDog that are drinkable. at the same time many of the European beers are getting worse and worse in quality as global demand increases and companies such as leffe start to churn out mediocre versions of its former self. these are the signs of the times. for my money I would rather go for a delirium tremens, la trappe, baltic trader, leifmans kreik, doom bar or ginger tosser. you can keep your mass produced Craft Beer and I hope you enjoy it

really>rarely

>>11151315
>You're pretending to be a 4chan oldfag
I may have been here for a while but I was never a /b/ or anime board guy, and I never claimed to be

Also since you cannot google apparently or you are just messing with me, "conflate" means to combine two or more variables into one. In this context referring to the conflation of pasteurization with other quality related variables often experienced with pasteurized milk. Its easy to see how people would conflate spuriously correlated variables, our brains have evolved to observe correlations and make assumption based on them, we just need to be careful when there are other variables being masked that we do not conflate them

>>11151320
dude, I don't know why you have this weird grudge against Wisconsin, but it simply makes more great cheese than any other state, you cannot just pretend it doesn't exist. Wisconsin is just where the industry is, there is more supply of good milk an way more people educated in the production of cheese than anywhere else, with the UW being both the pioneer of and still the master of dairy science. The fact that it also makes most of the bland cheese does not make the good cheese any less good

>>11151324
>you can keep your mass produced Craft Beer
What does this even mean?

Delirium Tremens and La Trappe are available in most grocery stores in America, they are good, but countless American breweries make Belgian style beers just as well if not better, and usually for a better price at least relative to the import (I assume they are more reasonably priced locally)

>>11151347
Every board is and always has been the anime board, filthy mobilescum invader. Isn't it funny how the ones who screech about reddit are always the newest and have barely lurked here for more than 10 seconds since being linked here from a reddit thread?

And I like how you just spent 20 minutes after googling, trying to spin an implausible interpretation of your original post in order to make it sound like you were making an extremely tortured point about how "pasteurization" and "having these flavors" were simply two arbitrary properties of a cheese, when it is clear what you meant originally was to deny that pasteurization was the essential cause of the difference in flavor - a claim for which the term "conflation" doesn't make any grammatical sense, since, if we are talking about whether X stands in a causal relationship with Y then the question of "conflation" does not apply

>>11151385
>Every board is and always has been the anime board
No, no it hasn't, most people here do not pay attention to that stuff

> are always the newest and have barely lurked here for more than 10 seconds
You have been whining about WIDF at me for years, now suddenly it is a new thing?

>And I like how you just spent 20 minutes after googling
Well I figured you would google it yourself an realize you were wrong and no more was needed, but then that didn't work out. I didn't imagine you would double down on a factually incorrect and easily googleable point.

I was pretty clearly saying in the original post that the other variables common in cheap cheese which also happen to be pasteurized are responsible for the quality, not the pasteurization itself, and that you should be careful not to conflate these things. I genuinely do not understand how that was not immediately obvious to you. I really don't get how you are still trying to argue this minor semantic point an spin it in weird ways to justify your ignorance of the meaning of the word. maybe next time just try googling the definition of a word before you try and call someone out for using it improperly and you can avoid such embarrassment

>>11151347
'some' of us evolved. I fear your fancy vocabulary is lost on that brainlet.

>>11151433
And now we're at the "whoa this is so weird, I really do not understand any of these points" part of the conversation. Recognizing -kun implies some exposure to the anime lexicon and obviously you, being a regular normal guy, would never watch it, right?

Also I find it amusing how you seem to recognize "WIDF" as a recurring term but not Wisconsi-kun, maybe it's because the WIDF is actually real even though I was just joking when I coined the phrase. Whereas Wisconsi-kun is just a cute nickname I have for you, and does not refer to any title or contractual obligation you may have with the Wisconsin Internet Defence Force. Note that's "Defence" with a "c" because I hate America and have literally never set foot there.

Anyway I'm off to the liquor store before they close for labor day, which would be a real disaster. I'm feeling flyover today thanks to this cheese, so I'll probably pick up a buttery oak bomb battle axe chardonnay to go with this pesto sauce I'm using the fake parmesan for. I'm thinking Rombauer, any thoughts on that?

>>11151363
yank #1: America makes the best cheese in the world, America makes the best beer in the world, America is the best in the world and if anyone says otherwise we bomb you.

yank #2: Wisconsin makes the greatest cheese in the world, Wisconsin makes the best beer in the world, Wisconsin is the best state in America or we bomb you.

>>11151497
No one ever said America or Wisconsin makes the best cheese in the world

America definitely makes the best beer in the world, and hell Wisconsin itself probably makes better beer than the rest of the world outside America does, 10-20 other states each individually do too I would think

>>11151494
>Also I find it amusing how you seem to recognize "WIDF"
You use it all the time and have been for years in threads toward me and toward others, of course it is familar. I have maybe seen you say "Wisconsin-kun" once or twice before, and assumed it was some anime reference but nver cared enough to google it

>I'm feeling flyover today thanks to this cheese, so I'll probably pick up a buttery oak bomb battle axe chardonnay
I have heard you say countless times that you think flyovers would literally harm you for drinking wine as a man

>>11151511
lol. you stupid yanks. get a passport already. america is not the greatest country in the world.

>>11151538
America may not be the greatest, but its pretty good in some ways, beer being especially high amongst them. The whole Trump thing is pretty shitty but there are very few places in the world where you would be luckier to be born

But please, I will be in Europe for a few weeks next month, what beer have I been missing out with that you guys have easy access to? I try to exclusively drink local stuff when I travel

>>11151558
which country?

>>11151563
Prague, Munich, and Budapest

Raw milk Parmesan style cheese can be made and sold in the US by the way.

>>11151596
they are going to tell you all the nice Munich beers that you should try, but see if you can find a "Rauchbier" or smoked beer. It's from Frankonia actually, but if you want to try something new that you might actually love, see if you can find "Rauchbier".

>>11151709
I've had a few good American smoked beer, I will definitely be on the lookout for some there

>>11151718
I'm an American and I work at a nice restaurant in Bamberg, Germany (about 1.5 hours from Munich) and they have the best rauchbier here, its called "Schlenkerla" find yourself a schlenkerla, drink it cold, and you will fall in love. Of course the munich beers are also good, but just trust me on this.

>>11151596
not wonderful choices for beer unless you like lager.

>>11151768
>not wonderful choices for beer unless you like lager.
Thats really the story of non-Belgium Europe

>>11151698
In some places, yes . In other places, no. The legality of raw milk and raw milk cheeses is an inconsitent patchwork.

>>11151779
>>11151768
>>11151596
Since these guys wont tell you or don't know, just drink "Franziskaner Weißbier" the whole time. It's made in Munich and it's my all time favorite Hefeweizen. But just drink rauchbier ;)

>>11151794
Franziskaner is pretty common in America, agree that it is good though

>>11151789
FDA allows it at a Federal level.
https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=133.165

That said, no one seems to be doing it.

>>11151826
Yes. But that is ignoring state law. Some states ban it altogether. Some states allow it to be openly sold in any 'ol supermarket. Others restrict it to various degrees. In my state it is legal, but you cannot buy it from a supermarket, you must buy it directly from the dairy.

>>11151276
>because I have had many great pasteurized and unpasteurized cheeses
That's nice.

Can you describe an example of the *same style of cheese* where you've compared a pasteurized and unpasteruized version? Comaring totally different cheese styles is meaningless.

I never claimed that unpasteurized milk was bad cheese. My point is that when you take a cheese that is supposed to be made with unpasterurized and you switch to pasteurized then you get a different tasting product entirely.

>>11151302
And just as how bud light production far exceeds that of "good beer" production, most of Wisconsin's cheese is processed ass.

Why would you judge a region by the tiny % of it's top production rather than what is the most common, aka average? I don't think anyone is claiming WI doesn't make some great cheeses. The point is that the shitty ones dominate.

>>11151363
>The fact that it also makes most of the bland cheese does not make the good cheese any less good


Nope. But it does mean that if we are talking about cheese in general most of it is pretty bad. Nobody is denying that they make the good stuff too. Its just that it's so outnumbered by the mediocre.

>>11151525
That's true, drinking wine as a man is a terrible risk, almost as dangerous as walking home from a bar. Luckily I am not in a flyover state, not anymore.

In any case I was feeling a lot less contrarian when I got to the store, so I went for the white burgundy, but aligoté (that's a grape) instead of 1990s chardonnay. I'll have to wait until my next wave of toxic contrarianism overtakes me before I can bring myself to taste another horrible American ''''''wine''''''.

Where the fuck are you buying these that it's so expensive? I can buy euro pecorino Romano and parm for like 13 a lb why are you paying 30?

>>11151924
Pecorino romano is somewhat lower priced than parmigiano-reggiano here, not to mention a totally different cheese with a totally different taste, being made from sheep.

I don't think they are at all comparable except in the WIDF catalog where pecorino basically just means "fake parmesan, but with more salt", and probably made from the exact same vats.

Also average for parmigiano reggiano is closer to $20, but I'm pretty sure I've seen it as high as $30 somewhere, at some point.

>>11151984
Pecorino yeah but euro parm is sold in the "health" market I buy it from both 24 and 36 months is definitely cheaper than 20

>>11151891
>My point is that when you take a cheese that is supposed to be made
So when we invented pasteurization, we should have just started renaming all of the cheeses? Thats absurd

>>11151906
When the question is what state makes the best of something, the fact that that same state makes some not as good stuff doesn't make the good stuff any less good. Wisconsin just dominates the US cheese market at all levels, its just where the industry is based

Again, this is just like beer, Bud Light does not change the fact that America makes the best beer, and Americans have the best access to beer that any group of people have ever had in human history. Its silly to judge whether a place makes good stuff by focusing on the worst stuff

>>11152048
I don't understand what that even means. When we invented distillation we didn't call the new stuff "wine". When we invented heavier-than-air flight, we didn't just call the new contraptions "horses".

There is still wine, just as there are still horses, we use a name that's unlikely to cause confusion, because that makes it easier for everyone.

>>11151914
by this logic a place that makes two bad cheeses and one good one makes better cheese than a state that makes 1000 bad cheeses and 200 good ones. The volume of mediocre stuff does not effect their domination of the good stuff

>>11150786
this

>>11152067
thats a really strained analogy, so you are saying we should have stopped calling it cheese once we invented pasteurization

>>11152082
No, and no matter how much you waterboard logic itself, no matter how much you flog and beat the basic definitions that words have, you're not going to have a point that sounds reasonable to anyone outside the Wisconsin reality distortion field.

>>11152095
The point is that no one ever thought that pasteurization made cheese not cheese, nor did it make known styles suddenly novel products when this process started to become popular, The idea that pasteurization should disqualify a cheese for being called by its traditional style name is just marketing bullshit

>>11152110
It doesn't "disqualify" anything, because it was never that thing to begin with.

I'm not "disqualified" for being an attack helicopter because of "marketing bullshit", I'm simply not an attack helicopter, period. There's nothing to discuss here - the fact that you think there is makes you sound like a crazy person.

>>11152136
The important thing to note is the idea that pasteurized cheese shouldn'[t be considered in the style they are made in was not a sentiment present traditionally, ts not even a thing most people in the inustry think now, its only a marketing point for cheese makers who decide not to do it to try and trick consumers into thinking their product is better. Its not a thing anyone would be focused on if marketers hadn't set your mind to it, an frankly its not a concept that deserves nearly this much discussion, it shouldn't be a thing anyone even cares about

>>11152157
It's misleading to frame this in terms of "better" and "worse".

If I order a wool scarf on the internet I'm going to be mad if I end up with a silk tie. It doesn't matter if it's a nice tie - it's not what I ordered.

Facts matter, because people make decisions based on them. Allowing companies to lie to consumers degrades trust - look what's happening with Amazon right now with all the fakes. If you want something where getting what you ordered is really important, you'd be a fool to order it on Amazon in this day and age.

Obviously it's not the end of the world if someone gets a cheese that doesn't taste like he expected, but it is annoying, and if you're actually defending this then it's perfectly valid to call you a shill.

>>11152189
But you are trying to frame minor decisions that no one traditionally considered to be defining of a style as now suddenly being important. Its just a way to create a fake divide for marketing purposes.

Aslo, if you are really this obsessed over whether something is pasteurized, the packaging still clearly marks it as such, so your whole "lie" bit doesn't make any sense

Again, cheese, or wine, or beer or whatever should be sold based on what it is. I think its dumb that Kraft powder "parmesan" is marketed as such, but to try and extend that into saying that parmesan cannot be pasteurized because pasteurizing makes it now a new style is just ridiculous

>>11152068
I'm trying to differentiate making a point about "the best" from a generalized statement about all cheeses from that state.

Stating that "wisconsin makes the best cheese in the US" is fine, because it doesn't matter how much shit they produce, all it takes is a single superlative example to qualify as having "the best". They could have ten million awful cheeses and one superlative one and that statement remains entirely true.

But let's look at OP:
>Is it just taken for granted that the average customer of Wisconsin cheese knows nothing about cheese?
The topic is "average" not the cream of the crop.

>>11152240
You call it minor, because you don't know what the real thing even tastes like. It's extremely obvious.

Honestly IDGAF if it's pasteurized or not, it could have been stored in somebody's asshole for a month, it might contain ground up cockroaches, it might not even be made of organic matter, as long as it looks, smells, and tastes exactly like the product advertised, I'm not going to notice or care.

I am going to notice if you call it one thing, and when I taste it, it is something completely different.

Get back to me when you come up with a convincing knockoff made from pasteurized milk.

>>11152255
>I'm trying to differentiate making a point about "the best" from a generalized statement about all cheeses from that state.
Why the fuck are you doing that? No one has ever said or even implied that all cheese in Wisconsin is good, you are trying to argue against a viewpoint that no one has ever taken. What are you even doing here?

>>11152260
>as long as it looks, smells, and tastes exactly like the product advertised
Thats what I have been arguing the entire time, I have just been trying to tell you to stop getting distracted by side shit that doesn't matter

>>11150782
eurocuck hypocrisy has been boundless for centuries
it's funny because when they try to insult amerifats they are only insulting the progeny of their own ancestry, essential eurocucks bullying retarded eurocuck offspring

>>11152264
>Thats what I have been arguing the entire time,
No, you've been claiming that it DOES look, smell, and taste exactly like the product advertised. Which it definitely does not.

>>11152240
I'm not the guy you're replying to, but the decisions as you put it (or "differences" would be a better term IMO) are not minor, they are very significant. The divide is anything but "Fake".

You are correct that the packaging is clearly marked, and a customer who is not an idiot can easily check the ingredient list and check. That said, I am sure there are plenty of customers who are completley ignorant of the distiction and wouldn't even know to check.

>> saying that parmesan cannot be pasteurized because pasteurizing makes it now a new style is just ridiculous
Here's an example. Suppose you go to a butcher and you ask for two ribeyes. The guy comes in the back and comes back with a package wrapped up in paper. You pay, and you get home. You unwrap the steaks and discover that they have already been cooked. Is that what you expected? That's exactly what happened when you bought "Brie" and found it to be made with unpasteurized milk, for example.

Would you be upset with the butcher? Would it be any different if, after you complained, that the butcher points to fine print that you didn't notice stating *all steaks sold cooked? The expectation when you buy meat from the butcher is that it is raw, just as when you buy "Brie" that it is made with unpasteurized milk.

>>11152278
No, I have been saying it can, not that it does in all instances

>>11152263
>Why the fuck are you doing that?

Did you not read my entire post? OP specifically stated he is asking about the AVERAGE customer. The AVERAGE customer is buying the cheapo industrial cheese. The cream-of-the-crop "best" stuff isn't relevant. Reading comprehension, bro.

>>11152288
But to imply that that assumption of being unpasteurized does, or should exist with common cheese styles is disingenuous. Words mean what people understand them to mean, if you go to a butcher you assume its going to be raw meat because thats generally what a butcher sells and he calls himself a butcher. Cheese style names do not typically denote whether something is pasteurized. Again, it seems like you are just mad about how language works and how these words have been applied

>>11152290
Can you give some examples that you have tried personally? Or is this all a bunch of nonsense in your head?

>>11152299
oh, so you are doing it to answer a rhetorical question from a previous post rather than anything anyone is saying in the posts you are responding to? Makes sense

>>11152290
It doesn't matter if it "can", the problem is it doesn't. Not "sometimes doesn't". There are ZERO instances where it does.

This is like saying "oh, yeah, we have a base on Mars" because, technically, we have the means to do that. Never mind that we don't have any such base, and it's probably not happening any time soon. You're defending a lie, because to you it matters more that in principle, we could have a base on mars.

Well, to the rest of us, reality matters, not "I bet it could be true", in some hypothetical timeline that seems kinda like this one, but isn't.

>>11152310
>Cheese style names do not typically denote whether something is pasteurized.
But that's wrong you ponce. I guess that's what happens when your cheese education comes from Wal-Mart.

The analogy is actually excellent. You expect a Butcher to sell raw meat just as how one expects Brie to be made from unpasteurized milk. If the product was cooked while you rightly expected raw you'd be justifiably upset in either case because you were sold something that does not match what was being implied by the name.

>>11152313
sure take this
>>11150969
and Emmi gruyere
Obviously belong to the same style but the American version cannot market itself as such. One is raw milk one is pasteurized, it doesn't stop it from obviously being of the same style

>>11152332
>But that's wrong you ponce
In common English usage styles rarely denote whether something should be pasteurized, this just isn't a thing

>>11152332
do you honestly believe that is an honest, an not obviously and intentionally misleading. Pasteurizing milk is only cooking it in the very broadest of senses, to compare it to cooking meat makes you really hard to take seriously

>>11152350
or from the same cheesemaker
>>11151051
and a traditional limburger

>>11152350
>fake gruyere tastes just like 24-month PDO parmigiano-reggiano
Are you actually human?

>>11152365
um, what? maybe reread the previous post

>>11152371
Um what is right. I've read every post in this thread, because I started it.

Can you answer the actual question now?

>>11152352
>In common English usage styles rarely denote whether something should be pasteurized, this just isn't a thing
Depends if you care about cheese or not. Some people know what words really mean, other people don't.

I don't know where your interests lie, but whatever they are I assure you there are examples of the same thing in the jargon associated with that.

>>11152356
It's not intentionally misleading in the slightest. There is a massive difference in taste between the two. Considering the difference insignifcant is beyond silly. Have you ever tasted raw milk? If not, why are you even enaged in a discussion you know nothing about?

>>11152375
I was comparing an American alpine style pasteurized cheese to an obviously stylistically similar Swiss raw milk gruyere, and neither to Parmesan

>>11152387
>Depends if you care about cheese or not.
You can't just make up new definitions because you "care more" we have to work in the framework of the english language, we can't just make stuff up if we don't like how words are used

>>11152387
>There is a massive difference in taste between the two
You keep saying this but there is just no evidence of it. Ask anyone in the industry, it is easy to pasteurize cheese with little to no impact on the flavor, to compare it to the impact of cooking meat is straight up dishonest

>>11152465
>You can't just make up new definitions
I'm not. I'm using the traditional definition.

Can you name one of your hobbies or an area of expertise you have and I'll give you an example that might make more sense?

>>11152482
>I'm using the traditional definition.
But thats a lie, the tradition never differentiated between pasteurized and raw milk cheese, this is a super modern distinction. Are there any examples of style name differentiation to a pasteurized and raw version of a cheese when pasteurization was invented and popularized?

>>11150758
Beer, bread, and cheese are all like that in the US. You can find quality, but you'll have to look for it. It's even worse with exported American food, since only our worst brands go international.

Also
>no raw dairy

>>11152528
luckily beer has gotten to the point where you don't have to look anymore, sure the shit stuff still sells better, but every store and gas station and bar has good beer at least, unfortunately the same cannot be said of cheese or bread

>>11151224
The poster you’re responding to is correct. I work in a French cheese bar. We have American Brie and Brie de Meaux. They have slightly different colors as well as a pretty significant difference in flavor. American Brie is very mild where as Brie de Meaux has a grassy kind of sharpness to it.

You keep trying to fight it but you’re totally wrong on this one

>>11152460
You mean you were using an example of a cheese sold under the Emmi Roth label, called "Grand Cru Surchoix", which is in no way being passed off as a totally different product from Switzerland. Which simply reinforces my point up here >>11150798
while dodging the question of which mislabeled Wisconsin "parmesan" actually tastes just like PDO parmigiano-reggiano.

Some do taste just like it, right? So, which are they.

>>11152549
>They have slightly different colors as well as a pretty significant difference in flavor. American Brie is very mild where as Brie de Meaux has a grassy kind of sharpness to it.
Thats entirely from the cow's diet

>>11152518
>But thats a lie, the tradition never differentiated between pasteurized and raw milk cheese,
The traditional defintion referred to unpasteurzed because that's the only thing that existed at the time. Maintaining the same definition after changing the ingredients is a mistake.

>>Are there any examples of style name differentiation
Plenty of them. Remember earlier in the thread when we were talking about the really good US cheeses? The ones that are made like old Euro ones but have different names?
Hudson Flower is a pasteurized version of Fleur du Maquis. Friesago is a pasteurized version of Asiago. Sarvecchio is a version of Parm Reg, and so on.

You seem to have forgotten to name a hobby or area of interest so I can give you a better example that might get my point across better.

>>11152534
Beer has gotten much better admittedly, the hipster micro-brew scene helped a lot there.

Good cheese in the US is hard to find outside of specially shops, or high end grocery stores.

If you're on the west coast, you can generally find high-quality sourdough bread. Though Sara Lee bought out, and subsequently destroyed San Luis sourdough. Brian's bread took up the mantle though, and managed to make an even better sourdough.

>>11152560
No, I am simply saying they are the sufficiently similar despite one being raw and one pasteurized.

>>11152575
>The traditional defintion referred to unpasteurzed because that's the only thing that existed at the time. Maintaining the same definition after changing the ingredients is a mistake.
well it as a "mistake" that literally everyone made for generations. No one at the time thought this constituted the birth of new styles

also, now you are confusing specific cheese brand names with style names

>>11152567
Some of it to be sure. But pasteurization is a big factor in cheesemaking. To downplay it just to pretend to be right because you’re stubborn and wrong is just dumb.

>>11150782
This.

>>11152579
Yeah and anyone who knows anything about cheese sees that you have no taste.

>>11152589
I have just had enough pasteurized and raw cheeses that I have realized what a minor role that process plays

If pasteurization is the important differentiating factor between styles I would like someone to articulate how precisely it effects the flavor

>>11152601
i don't know man, both are pretty delicious cheeses owned by the same parent company but made in different countries. One can legally use the style name, one cannot. I think thats silly

>>11152602
Yeah and you’re full of shit. You’re arguing at this point because you’re stubborn.

>>11152586
>well it as a "mistake" that literally everyone made for generations.
Not literally everyone. Only the ignorant, which admittedly is a lot of people.

>>No one at the time thought this constituted the birth of new styles
The makers of the original products certainly did, hence why they invented the idea of PDOs.
The shysters who wanted to sell you a different product but ride the coattails of the original makers didn't though. They'd prefer to lie to you to get your money.

>>also, now you are confusing specific cheese brand names with style names
And you're still failing to answer my question regarding a hobby or interest. Why do you keep doing that?

>>11152607
In some cases I agree with you. Only in cases where the terroir actually matters like wine imo

>>11152609
No, I am arguing this point because the people who get mad the minute they see "pasteurized" on a label are dumb

>it's a Europeans pretend they're the only one's who can make good cheese thread

>>11152613
>Not literally everyone. Only the ignorant,
Find any traditional source contemporary to the popularization of pasteurization that states people in the industry thought pasteurization should necessitate that all such cheeses would be marketed as a new style

This just wasn't a thing

>>11152621
And that’s no one in this thread. You saying pasteurized vs non doesn’t matter for any kind of cheese is simply ignorant and shows you’re arguing because you can’t stand to be wrong even on an anonymous cheese debating forum

>>11152613
>The makers of the original products certainly did, hence why they invented the idea of PDOs.
The makers of the products did not invent PDOs, bureaucrats did at the behest of the corporation paying them to keep out other producers of the same product

>>11152613
>And you're still failing to answer my question regarding a hobby or interest.
go with beer, try and create some really strained misleading analogy for beer

>>11150855
Pecorino Romano is better tho

>>11152631
>And that’s no one in this thread
This line of discussion literally began with such a comment and continued defense of it
>>11150866
all discussion of pasteurization stems from this

>>11152656
Reread it. The guy is saying that pasteurization is an important variable in cheesemaking (it absolutely is) and that cheeses made with pasteurized milk that purport to be a cheese that is traditionally made with raw milk are cutting corners for profit (which they usually are).
Like he said. Find me a product that passes for parm reg while being pasteurized milk.

>>11152641
I'm sorry I don't know much about beer, but I'll try.
To the average person, anything made from fermented barley that's bottled and fermented is just "beer".
To a beer afficinado, there's a world of difference between a lager and a pilsner. To the average joe it's just dumb semantics.

Same thing here. To someone who knows cheese it's absurd to imagine a pasteurized brie, but its all the same to the average joe.

>Nice trumpet dude
>Actually, it's a cornet

>>11152634
So you're bitching about semantics? Lol. The burecrats do the bidding of their constituents. That's how government works. The cheesemakers saw a problem (i.e. others claiming to produce the same product but it not being actually the same) and got the government to do something about it.

I have no problem with different versions of products being made, just don't lie to the customer about what it is.

>>11152672
Oh, I thought you were gonna try an say something that most english speakers know to be true but some marketers are trying to change. Like the new idea that only Belgians should be allowed to make Lambic

This description of people just not being aware of detail is a bit different than what we were talking about

>>11152684
>The burecrats do the bidding of their constituents
Yeah, they are trying to help businesses in their district at the expense of businesses outside their district and consumers

>>11152686
I don't care who makes it. I just think the product needs to match the name. And in the world of cheese, the type of milk and how it is treated makes a massive difference, though it might not be apparent to the ignorant.....the same way a non-musician would think a cornet and a trumpet are the same thing since they look identical to the untrained eye.

As for the lambic, I don't care where its made, but it would be mighty hard to get the same wild yeasts if you did so in a different geographical area. If you can somehow manage that, congrats, you can make Lambic in Freeport, Texas. If you can't use those same yeasts, well, you're not making lambic.

>>11152722
You can enact your stupid regulations, but in the end it will just become "Parmesan-style" cheese on the label and nothing will change.

>>11152641
Everything is “ strained and misleading “ if you disagree, that’s your habitual defense mechanism for getting btfo

... jesus tittf-
There's going to be a bit of terroir happening in cheese, beer (meat... veggies... these things grew in this environment, were fed this, and this is what all of that tastes like). Depending on how subtle the flavours are, it can be really noticeable - especially with a pale, malty beer, or a mild, lightly brined or moulded cheese.

That said (basically that it is more or less impossible for a cheese made in Wisconsin to taste EXACTLY like a cheese made in Italy), there's no reason why they can't get close. Temperature and climate are important in aging such a creature, but that's what fridges and de/humidifiers are for.

>>11152651
That’s like saying fish is better than bananas

>>11152782
I do get why people are protective of the terms, though. There is a line of thinking that is almost agressively against anything "fancy," and you get people like my parents who think that the sawdust in a can "parmesan" is the same thing as a hunk of good parmesan cheese. "Why would I pay more for the same shit! They're just trying to he fancy!"

I know its fucking stupid, but I think it's a more common attitude than people realize.

>>11152793
maybe lake trout being better than bass?

both PRs are hard, salty, Italian cheeses. One's made from sheep's milk, and one from cow's.

>>11152804
I mean if we're going for two fish then let's say cod vs mackerel

The flavors are wildly different, I don't know what "lake trout" tastes like other than the heavily salted and smoked form, and "bass" pretty much describes dozens of different fish, including some freshwater garbagefish

>>11152847
Sure. Either way they're different species of the same animal, generally found in roughly the same location.

Comparing a fish to a banana seems a bit too broad - like comparing durians to Grana Padano

>>11151841
the land of the free where the government tells you what you can eat

>>11151906
Budweiser is a good case in point how America completely bullshits it's way through life. Budweiser America banning original Budweiser made in the town of Budweiser from calling their beer Budweiser

>>11152067
usa invents flight and distilled spirits

>>11152549
Coulommiers is not from Normandy but the Brie region btw.

>>11150728
Cry about it. America doesn't have to respect European PDOs.

America doesn't respect fuckall. it's the biggest gypsy nation of Outcasts that Europe didn't want. if you lot hadn't have left we would have killed you. in fact not having killed you before you left was the biggest European mistake pretty much as bad as not having killed all the Jews

and American beer is shit tier. absolutely no class. like comparing a fine Belgian chocolate truffle with a stick of bubblegum.

>>11154332
>I can roll around in my own excrement and there is nothing you can do about it! Take that!

>>11154407
not in Europe you can't otherwise someone will see you and report you for racism because of your black face makeup.

>>11154350
So is the cheese.
Pasteurised crap.

Meh. As an italian I'd still use parmesan to grate in on pasta. Eaten alone parmigiano is obviously king.

I don't see any American cheese getting imported to Europe. I wonder why? we get plenty of Canadian cheese

zizzona is the queen of cheese

>>11155811
All cheese produced in the USA is objectively, fucking shit.
Even Drumpff wouldnt touch the Wisconsin cheese industry and he's been known to make some very bad business decisions.

>>11155814
based

>>11155811
Tarriffs.

>>11151324
>leifmens
That's absolute swill, a mockery of what real Belgian beers are (but most good traditional Belgian beer is made in America anyway)

>>11150855
That's a funny way to spell grana padano

>>11156718
>his local lidl doesnt have parma reg in stock yet

>>11156884
>he doesn't buy locally-produced food

>>11150728
>Its been said in various ways;
Us Wisconsinites make excellent cheeses. We also sell poor quality cheeses to appease the plebtards. Why only capture half the market when you can get em all?
That said, we don't have to abide by dumbass Europoor PDO bullshit.
It's the same cheese, made in the same way.
Go cry to your nanny-state, cuz we're gonna keep making and selling it shitlord.

>>11151178
Hook's Triple Play is my jam.

>>11156895
>trying to argue for local parma reg clones
signs of an utter pleb who follows trends without asking why they are a thing. when you wont get better local produce and a product can be shipped without a problem, why whouldnt you use it? unless you are a burger, in which case i wont even listen to you.

>>11156478
name a better kreikbier.....
leifmans is top followed by petrus red and castille

European PDO laws are nothing more than protectionism. Protecting traditions from innovation and trying to prevent them from having to compete in the free market.

>>11151051
>(((roth))) cellars
Is that sold next to the Frank Attics cheese?

>>11154273
>Budweiser is a good case in point how America
You faggots always seem very eager to forget that AB is a Belgian corporation.

>>11151740
Schlenkerla is excellent, it's a common enough import that you can find it in local bottle shops and even big chains like total wine here in the states. I'd love to be able to try it fresh from the tap though.

>>11159013
They aren't stopping anyone from making anything.

The only thing they are preventing is someone lying about what they are selling.

>>11157456
>sweet swill

Any kriek made by Cantillion, Hill Farmstead, Allagash, Almanac brewing, or The Funk Factory.

There, breweries from Belgium, California, VT, Mainr and Wisconsin. Be it your a coastie, midwesterner or eurotrash you can agree

>>11157078
>Go cry to your nanny-state, cuz we're gonna keep making and selling it shitlord.
Apparently not.

>>11159904
According to Wisconsinites I should be able to shit in a paper cup and call it gourmet ice cream, and if anyone objects it's because they hate innovation

>>11152802
There's also just the fact that words mean things. Usually they will argue something to the effect that "language is a living thing", which oddly enough doesn't apply when it comes to shoddy exploding Chinese electronics with a reputable name sticker slapped on. Just shoddy Wisconsin cheese with a reputable name sticker slapped on.

>>11162137
Your shit in a cup would be about as palpable as the rest of you. You could smear yourself in shit and you would not be any less repugnant.

>>11150728
t. california cheese

>>11151152
Pasteurized milk is better for some cheeses than raw. Especially if the cheese maker isn't raising the cows themselves.
Fermented feeds are pretty healthy for cattle, and are more shelf stable than most feeds, but will pass on all sorts of microbes to the milk. These will ruin a cheese unless it's pasteurized out. Jasper Hill had an issue were their supplier didn't tell them and had a whole batch of cheese explode out of its barrel molds in the night.

>>11164159
If it’s betttet sometimes and worse sometimes then it’s not identical

>>11164159
The post you were replying to was discussing a taste difference. You are talking about a spoilage risk. The two have nothing to do with each other. And spoilage can happen with pasteurized milk too, it's just less likely.

I'd still rather use unpasteurized milk for those cheese styles which call for it. The fact that it must be handled more carefully and might result in product spoilage will result in higher production costs. That's fine, I am happy to pay the increased price to get a product which tastes better.

>>11164159
but did it taste good?

who cares? Romano is better

>>11163589
What do you think "palpable" means?

>>11165357
I'll bet you $100 this guy thinks romano is just "a saltier version of parmesan"

>>11154321
Hey thanks I’ll change that sign. Can’t see how we missed that it even says on the box

>>11165974

no u

>>11165974
>>11166039

You heard him dude. Where's the $100 buckaroos shit head?

>>11164077
Wisconsin and Texas are similar insofar as they both live their lives in perpetual awe of the State of California. It's like watching two little retards competing over who's more of a retard than the big retard.

>>11150882
I've had a sliver of $100/lb 25 yr aged cheddar before. Imho it should just be used as a garnish or spice at that point if not just eaten alone. They had older ones going for a bit more but at that point is it even food?

>>11165974
it has more salt and more of every other good flavor

>>11150755
We already do that.
Velveeta
American processed cheese spread product
Cheese in a spray can

>>11150728
Don't just single out Wisconsin. California has become a hotbed of corporate produced and branded cheese fuckery and douchebaggery. Acceptable for plebeian Amerifats that know no better, but they're just cattle, feeding on commercial fodder.

>>11168818
Yes, but most of the fraud from California is related to wine. There may be mislabeled cheese from California but if there is, it's rare.