/ck/ - Food & Cooking

Same editorial. Same writers. Nothing is going to change.

>not raping and holocausting all cis white men
Marvel is literally Hitler.

>Part of it, but I think also it seemed like tastes changed, because stuff you had been doing in the past wasn’t working the same way. Did you perceive that or are we misreading that?

>No, I think so. I don’t know if those customers with the tastes that had been around for three years really supporting nearly anything that we would try, anything that we would attempt, any of the new characters we brought up, either they weren’t shopping in that time period, or maybe like you said their tastes have changed.

>There was definitely a sort of nose-turning at the things that we had been doing successfully for the past three years, no longer viable. We saw that, and that’s what we had to react to. Yes, it’s all of that.

>Now the million-dollar question. Why did those tastes change?

>I don’t know if that’s a question for me. I think that’s a better question for retailers who are seeing all publishers. What we heard was that people didn’t want any more diversity. They didn’t want female characters out there. That’s what we heard, whether we believe that or not. I don’t know that that’s really true, but that’s what we saw in sales.

>We saw the sales of any character that was diverse, any character that was new, our female characters, anything that was not a core Marvel character, people were turning their nose up against. That was difficult for us because we had a lot of fresh, new, exciting ideas that we were trying to get out and nothing new really worked.

>It was the old things coming back in that time period, three books in particular, Spider-Man Renew Your Vows, that had Spider-Man and Mary Jane married, that worked. The Venom book worked and the Thanos book worked. You can take what you want out of who might be enjoying those three books, but it is definitely a specific type of comic book reader, comic book collector that really liked those three series.

>>13718
Being a Marvelfag is suffering.

>>13718
the problem wasn't so much changing characters for diversity

it was they changed a fuck ton of characters all at once.

1 or 2 no big deal

but 2 Caps, 2 Thors, 2 Spider-mans, 3 ish Spider-women, 3 Iron Men, etc is too much. especially in short time frame

It's an April Fools gag you fags.

>>13724
>March 31

>>13721
>What we heard was that people didn’t want any more diversity. They didn’t want female characters out there. That’s what we heard, whether we believe that or not. I don’t know that that’s really true, but that’s what we saw in sales.

For fucks sake they wanted well written comics, it didn't matter if the fucking main character had a vagina or was black.

Why is this always the go to response for SJW's when shit doesn't sell? Is it because admitting you wrote a shit book is more hurtful to your ego?

>>13726
well if the writing is consistent and the only difference is more diversity, it's logical to assume your paying fans don't want it
it doesn't help that virtue signalling is a huge red flag since it's usually a crutch for shit writing

>>13721
>It was the old things coming back in that time period, three books in particular, Spider-Man Renew Your Vows, that had Spider-Man and Mary Jane married, that worked.

Hold on, I thought Slott said nobody wanted those two together? How can it do well if people don't like them?

Could Slott have lied?

>>13723
add on top of this all the crossovers and megaevents drowning it even more. All the books he listed(Venom, Thanos, Spiderman RyV) that are selling well have the great advantage that they are mostly self contained stories that focus on a small cast. When the new Miss Marvel did that in 2014, it work, when they dragged her threw two mega events one of them being CW2 her sales crash.

>>13722
I'm a Marvelfag and I haven't yet been affected by the sjw boogiememe. I just follow the books on my pull list and avoid shit like America, He'll Cat And Squirrel Girl. And anything written by Bendis. It's not that hard.

>>13728
Watch they will cancel Renew Your Vows soon even with strong numbers but the new Strong woman America book will last 4 years with less than 1k sales.

>>13723

Much bigger problem was they were written by Tumblr. Marvel storywriting have been in the slump for many good years, but Tumblrettes managed to find a new bottom for the barrel.

No amount of diversity is going to save your comic if your story and art is shit. And they most definitely were in 99% of these new "diversity" heroes. Sure, Tumblr kept going "fuck you you just hate them women, We're the new audience not you!"- but failed to actually show that with book sales. Tumblr never puts money where their mouths are, so they're a shitty customerbase to work with. Even shittier than imageboards and thats saying something.

Nothing wrong with diversity by itself, fuck, my current favorites of modern Alan Moore's work are Nemo spinoffs of TLoEG, and those have a cool indian pirate woman as the main character. It becomes a problem when you hire new writers and artists based on their skin color and ethnicity instead of their skill level.

>>13731
They'd never go that far, that's Bomb Queen levels of stupidity.

No, they'll have America go on for maybe two runs at most, and make the money back on TPB's.

>>13732
Who wanted to write Black Panther a few years back and all the head honchos at Marvel loved the guys work, but said they couldn't let him because he was white?

I know I'm probably simplifying that, but it was close to what was said.

>>13734
It might have been Bendis. Regardless you are not simplifying it, Isaac said "it's a shame you are white..." and left the poor guy spinning.

>>13730
What you reading, brother?

>>13734

If that really happened, then thats the problem of Marvel in a nutshell. Who the fuck cares about the skin color if the writing skill is good enough? And isn't that a sign of true equality more than fucking skin-pigment or ethnicity quotas? Because that also means a black guy/girl/transdimensionalhyperfurrykin can write a white hero as long as their writing skills themselves are good.

>>13736
Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows
Spider-Man and Deadpool
Silk
Venom
AN Wolverine

Are what I'm pulling, and I liked that issue of X-Men Prime that was storytimed this week.

>>13738
>Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows
Its fine, but I'm not interested in alternate universes.

>Spider-Man and Deadpool
Not a fan of Deadpool, but if its really good, I'll check it out.

>Silk
I don't give a shit about Slott's OC.

>Venom
Undoing all of Eddie's character development doesn't sound like something I'm on board with, plus the retcon has left a bad taste in my mouth regarding Symbiotes.

>AN Wolverine
I'm enjoying it, but one good read from Marvel isn't that good a scenario.

>>13739
Spider-Man and Deadpool is really good if you like 'fun' comics. Deadpool isn't too off the walls wacky if you're afraid of that.

>>13739
It's Deadpool written by Joe Kelly, I don't think you'll be disappointed.

As for Slott's OC, she became 100% better when slott stopped writing here, but I can understand why you'd stay far away from her.

>>13741
I will say this, Silk has been surprisingly good when she's not under Slott's hands.

Then again this won't get mentioned by Marvel because they don't want one of their bigger writers being blamed for the problems they're dealing with right now.

>>13742
It sick because Thompson is literally playing Mr Fixit with the train wrecks that's Bendis and Slott keep shitting out

>>13733
>and make the money back on TPB's
Marvel trades sell like shit.

>>13733
>Marvel will surely make it's money back on this run of America that nobody is buying through their industry 5th place trade sales that's even getting crushed by a singular trade of DC Superhero Girls.

>>13737
It's amazing because the best BP stories until Priest were by Don MacGregor, a white guy. Marvel has this benignly racist attitude where they only want characters of a certain ethnicity or sexuality being written by writers of that ethnicity or sexuality because only a black man can provide the authentic black experience needed to write Black Panther or whatever. Of course that leads to a ghettoization of talent and I'd imagine some are pissed about that; look at Priest after all, a guy who'd shown his chops writing stuff like Quantum and Woody and Deadpool being reduced to being the Black Writer.

But that's also a problem because the loud vocal minorities (pun only slightly intended) they're listening too will not accept anything beyond that either. Put a whtie guy on Black Panther or anything like that and the homo crusaders on Tumblr, the screeching twitter feminists and the braying racial activists on enthusiast sites will rake you over the coals for daring to put the best guy with the best ideas for the characcter on the book because they don't happen to share a similar racial or cultural make up as the character in question.

>>13746
this you try to pander to those people and you end up being fucked no matter what you do because their entire lives are based solely on finding something to get upset about.

>>13718
Make Mine X-Men, and fuck the rest of marvel universe

>>13721
As usual, the dense fucks at Marvel completely miss the point.

>>13726
>Why is this always the go to response for SJW's when shit doesn't sell? Is it because admitting you wrote a shit book is more hurtful to your ego?

It's because they literally do not understand that they are not writing good books.

The people who decide who writes what at Marvel do not actually read comics anymore, they simply presume that people are turning in work that is average or better in quality and so look for other trends.

It's a kind of selective blindness as opposed to deliberate blame shifting.

>>13726
I think that's true to a degree, but there is definitely an element of people who either never liked it or who decided that since X sucked, it all sucks. Caving in to those people is a huge over-correction and nobody wins, even the people who think they won.

If this is truly the lesson Marvel learned instead of, you know, constant relaunches and events wore people out, we're going to get a line up of overly safe books. Sure, maybe less of shit you hate like America, but also less stuff like Vision and Ms. Marvel (which was actually good pre-Secret War).

>>13743
Isn't that literally every writer who isn't Bendis and Slott?

>>13732
>a problem when you hire new writers and artists based on their skin color
They didn't even do that, really. They hired a bunch of mediocre fan artists and reused their old hacks because they spouted the right politics.

This wasn't even affirmative action, it was just "You're the guys complaining and saying we're shit, you fix it"

Marvel spent the last 5 years courting people that constantly said they hated just about everything about comic books while throwing their existing consumers under the bus and now they're wonder what's wrong.

>>13734
It was Hickman I think,after his appearances in FF and new avengers Hickman wanted to do a black panther king of the dead series but got shot down and Left marvel.Shame too his T challa is far more compelling than Coates

>>13732
>Tumblr never puts money where their mouths are
THIS.

>>13751
Anon, I get what you are saying, but no they weren't, those were meh and shit, respectively.

>>13718
marvel's going to copy rebirth after it's already dropped down to new 52 levels comics are dead

>>13757
>Vision
>Kamala
>meh and shit respectively
You're just embarrassing yourself, kiddo.

>>13758
>after it's already dropped down to new 52 levels
I'm pretty sure we're well into DCYou levels, senpai.

>>13759
Speaking in third person doesn't make you sound smart, mate.

>>13757
Well """meme'd""", """"contrarian!""""

>>13719
this
the only thing changing now is going full pandering towards status quo

There are some shit ty pushes to diversify, ill take that over Bendis and Slott garbage.

>>13739
>I don't give a shit about Slott's OC.
Seriously mate, the second she got written by someone other than Slott she became a Real Human Bean and not just OC fapbait #46754

>>13751
I agree. Marvel's problems are more than just too much diversity. It certainly doesn't help when so very many of the big leaguers are replaced by minorities at the same time and so quickly. But it's made worse by the quality and how it's handled and promoted. Aka the shitty writes who write shitty stories that make people hate said characters. And the marketers who market these shittly written characters as the greatest things ever in the history of mankind and the REAL versions. Marvel needs better writers, editors, and PR. It also doesn't help when they keep making books expensive (and apparently going to increase the number of $10 specials) thus limiting which books readers can buy. And not to mention events that not only interrupt stories, but are poorly and hastily written and constantly delayed. They need better structure.

>>13764
>Slott is still on ASM
>it will be 2087 and Slott will still be on ASM

>>13756
See, that's a nice slap at Marvel but if you really want something damning, try to find the screencap of Spencer lamenting that "Wednesday Warriors" are so much more willing to spend than tumblr/twitter progressives

>>13768

>>13734
It would be understandable if they wanted someone from Kenya or something for a more authentic voice, but they go and hire Coates who's from fucking Baltimore.

>>13721

To be fair poeple liked the new Ghost rider til you made him a fucking side character in his own book

>>91210978

>Global 4chan Rule 3
>You will not post any of the following outside of /b/: (...) racism.

>>>/b/

>>13718
>we're going to start writing books where all the heroes you know and love are back

I don't know if they should be applauded or slapped for even needing to fix their mistake.

>>13763

>the only thing changing now is going full pandering towards status quo

What do you mean by that, exactly?

But yeah, if you're going to clean up an organization, it's entirely necessary to not overlook the human garbage in the cleaning efforts. Even if you tell them that they can't make Captain America into a Nazi in an effort to push a narrative that western culture and white people should be blindly condemned on ideological grounds, you still have a team out of out-of-touch writers who've been pumping out terrible content for years. Seriously, if I were the CEO of Marvel, some of the stuff put out by Marvel writers would cause me to fly into a rage and fire them on the spot simply on account of it being so ridiculously low quality. People have been laughing at Marvel and shaking their heads. They're going to need to get rid of the laughing stocks and bring in some actual talent (which might not be easy, considering the environment that they helped to create in the artistic community).

>>13746
>the book because they don't happen to share a similar racial or cultural make up as the character in question.
It's also stupid, how a black guy who grew up in the US know more about a black guy who come from an invented African country than a white guy who also grew up in the US. Thinking that "they are both black so they have the same culture" it's nearly on the level of "Asian arr rook same".

>>13772
How new are you?

>>91210978
>I don't want to read Whor, even if it was the best written comic ever.
You wouldn't read any comic even if it was the best written comic ever, you just come here to be triggered by out of context pannel.

>>13775
Oh, so you just realized the party of the plantation is still, in fact, racist?

>>13721
>we had a lot of fresh, new, exciting ideas

No. No, you didn't. Every single time you tried it devolved into a mouthpiece. Sometimes you got further along, but it became the same beige shit. Fuck what happened to Kamala and injecting her into events and teams to sell books. Fuck what happened to Robbie and throwing him around in team ups. Fuck Cho and his inconsistent characterisation.

>>13772

>having an issue with a policy of discriminating against white men (the real face of equality of outcome, as well as what's actually meant by "diversity", as is easily observed by the double standards of people who push it) is racism

You lost the US presidency.
You lost the US house.
You lost the US senate.
You're about to lose the US Supreme Court.
You've been hemorrhaging US governors over the past decade.
You lost Brexit, and the labour party is fucked.
Italy told the EU to fuck off with their power grab.
You lost the Netherlands (Wilders didn't achieve the unprecedented landslide victory that he needed, but the left got fucked, and the right wing establishment there is picking up on his talking points).
You're going to lose France.
The EU is going to die.
Hollywood has been losing money. All of their successful works are reminders of a time where they weren't this out of touch (Star Wars, comic book movies, James Bond, etc.).
The MSM is losing all influence.
And as it related here, Marvel is hurting bad.

Do you know why? Because white people are tired of being called racist every time they fail to do anything other than scream for forgiveness for things that they're arguably the least guilty of out of any culture on Earth and throw themselves on the sword.

>>13775
Well they do. And they all know kung fu. Stop trying to appropriate asian culture, you idiot!

>>13777
Would you read a comic about how women should stay in the kitchen, if it was the best written comic ever?

You only pretend to be interested in comics to push your feminism and nonwhite supremacy ideas.

>>13782
>Not wanting to read "Kitchen Mom: Extreme Cuisine Escapades"

Casul

>>13782
>You only pretend to be interested in comics
I probably started reading comics when you were still in your father ballsack. I grew up reading Asterix so go fuck yourself with a cactus.

>>13771
Yeah, which is why the numbers for his ANGR run were just so great. It didn't have a steady drop off from the first issue at all and the poor sales figures only started with the latest run.

I get that floppies are an important source of revenue for Marvel, DC and Image. But don't they make more from trades? Doesn't DC in particular make more from trades just from outlets like Barnes & Noble these days?

Also, I don't buy Gabriel's explanation for why Marvel trades are more expensive, with less content than DC trades.

>>23302
>I get that floppies are an important source of revenue for Marvel, DC and Image. But don't they make more from trades? Doesn't DC in particular make more from trades just from outlets like Barnes & Noble these days?
Absolutely not. You are ignoring the fact floppies have ads and those ads more or less pay for the creation of that book. If they just went the pure "trade" route they would be bleeding money like crazy.

Japan just has a better way of doing this because it's in B/W instead of color which is why floppies have went up in cost so much as they used better paper and more detailed coloring. In Japan they just print 10-12 series in a huge phone book sized magazine on trash paper meant to be recycled. So you get 300+ pages for like the equivalent of $5 and this helps less popular series to get free advertising by being packed in with more popular series. This all serves to increase trade sales which are printed on better paper and meant to be kept long term.

Simply put...our system is ass backwards because we are selling archival quality paper/ink on floppies filled with ads and most people want to wait for the trades these days because $4.99 for 30 pages of story is ludicrous.

>>13755
Coates got the job because he was black and it was fucking embarrassing. Dude doesn't even like comics.

>>13763
>the only thing changing now is going full pandering towards status quo
I'm not so sure about that. We'LL probably get another situation like WAR THOR where Marvel teases a return to status quo and fucks the fans over yet again just because they can.

>>91210250

This is it exactly.

They hired a bunch of amateurs whose entire internet footprint screamed "I HATE THE CIS MARVEL U AND WANT TO DESTROY IT". Think about how guilt-tripped and weak the Marvel brass have to be to do that.

Honestly I think about 80% of the problem is that they let Amanat run amok. Has this person in any interview ever talked about the wealth of history or building true longlasting fandom in any realistic sense? No, she talks as if the #1 (and only) priority is to just throw new minority characters in everyone's faces and expect us all to instantly fall in love with them.

Amanat (and maybe Marvel as a whole) doesn't seem to recognize the difference between 2014 Ms Marvel and 2017 America. This is despite the fact that Amanat "co-created" Kamala. She honestly doesn't even think about how characters like Storm (or Deadpool for that matter) actually became enduringly popular. Instead it's just "Well I the Princess of Marvel declares we'll have more brown girls now!!!!"

But G Wilson doesn't get it either. She did great work in 2014 but is now doing a 6-part storyline about an internet troll. That's something a 22-year-old writer would resort to, not a supposed veteran whose done very good work in the past.

But then, think about how old Slott and Waid are... For god's sake, it's like in the last two years they've all been infected with a sort of virus that makes them immature and petulant. Marvel pretty much needs to turn over their entire writing and editorial staff, because they're all a bunch of podpeople at this point. Just having them try to write "classic MU" characters isn't going to work.

Mark Waid is probably the clearest example. It can't just be a problem with Amanat and the tumblr "talent", because Waid is an old workhorse with a ton of great stories to his credit, who has shown a deep understanding of the MU, and yet in 2017 look what he's been reduced to due to his own hobbyhorses and nonsense affecting his writing.

>>13718
>dc faces failing sales during dcyou and turns things around with rebirth
>marvel faces failing sales by forcing comics on retailers and starts blaming everyone else
>finally getting around to bringing back popular characters and writers

I hope Disney just turns them into a glorified movie tie-in comic company. Oh wait, they already are.

>>24503
Not enough, and it shows.
For all we complain about normies and casuals and reddit and moviefags do you really think the people that are getting into these characters via the MCU want Jane Foster as Thor any more than we do? You think the want Riri?

They don't. They want Thor to be a nordic guy with nice abs. They want Tony. And sure, it's quipping RDJ Tony, but that's still a hell of a lot closer than Riri.

>>13718
How are the sales for Moon Girl?? Such a underrated book

>>24443
>For god's sake, it's like in the last two years they've all been infected with a sort of virus that makes them immature and petulant.
No, that's just how they always were. Deep down inside that is who these people are. They were just really good at hiding it and acting professional in order to keep their jobs and sell books.

I don't doubt SOME of the talent at Marvel will be able to "go back" to the way old things were but others will probably struggle with it immensely.

>>25510
Because only pedophiles like it.

>>13738
Venom is shit.

>>26319
I think the lack of proper editorial at Marvel is a big part of the problem. Being able to shut down horrible ideas before they go to print is not something that should be understimated

>>24767
That's likely the main reason some characters stay the same in the moveverse for all eternity.

Imagine the rioting and murders at DC headquarters if they dared to say "we're now turning Batman into a black woman for all our future comics and movies to add in >more diversity, KTHXBAI"

>>13763
Written by the same guys as before, I'll add. Thanks birbo thanks, I'll stick with DD, manga and European comics until Marvel put his shit togheter, IE: hire good writers

>>27128
>Being able to shut down horrible ideas before they go to print is not something that should be understimated
I agree. That said...I don't think I really want to support them after seeing how petty, petulant and childish their staff is. Even if they do a better job it will always stain any work they do in my eyes.

>>27190
>IE: hire good writers
So never? cause DC has been head hunting those good writers while Marvel was too busy huffing their own farts pretending to be hollywood big shots.

>>27477
I hope they can find other new talents. I want to read good Marvel book, you know.(although I'm enjoying Bova, RYV and HyfraCap)

>>13718
Good. SJW culture is fucking awful, it causes nothing but anger and division. I hope all companies start to realize some whining bitches on Tumblr don't make up any sizeable percent of the population and stop all the pandering. Africa and Asia are fucking huge, with massive populations, they do not need asspats from the West. Black and Asian people make up relatively small percentages within our culture, if companies want to appeal to them they should write original characters, not erase white identity and culture or treat non white people as dumb tokens.

Oh, look. He's damage controlling:

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/03/31/damage-control-wake-backlash-david-gabriel-elaborates-diversity-says-marvel-gets-sides-story/

>>25510
Garbage, as it should be.

>>13763
And the saddest thing is that it will work. And people will delude themselves into thinking Marvel is good again

>>13774
>Even if you tell them that they can't make Captain America into a Nazi in an effort to push a narrative that western culture and white people should be blindly condemned on ideological grounds


>He actually believes this

>>13718
Video games and comics are literally the only industry where you'll have creatives call you stupid and expect you to bend the knee like a good cuck.

>>24503
Disney doesn't Marvel for anything but the usage of their IPs for their film franchise endeavors and to shill Star Wars comics. Not sure what would happen to Marvel publishing if they were in the red and Papa Mouse had to bail them out.

>>13762
>>13759
>kiddo
>contrarian
Scathing.

Don't think it's worth making a new thread so I'll just ask here - what's the current state of the X-Men? Have the younger ones gone back to their own time or are they just staying? Haven't read an X-book since not long after Battle of the Atom but that Prime issue has caught my interest a bit.

>>30769
>Not sure what would happen to Marvel publishing if they were in the red and Papa Mouse had to bail them out.

Perlmutter would fire all of them before it even happens. There is no way for publishing to take down the rest of the company when a skin flint is running the operation on bare bones crew/costs.

>>31248
O5 are still in modern time. Kid Cyclops is on Champions since he feels bad about how Adult Cyclops was worse than Hitler.
Kid Iceman is doing some gay stuff. Not sure what the rest are up to, but I don't think Marvel plans on getting rid of them.

>>27171
>not wanting Bat-Waller

>>31248
HA, we wish. They're getting a new book (All-New just ended), plus a solo for Teen "Making you gay makes my day" Jean, and not sure if the new Iceman gay solo features adult one or alternate timeline one.

>>31372
Only if she keeps the fat.

>>31473
The THICC, anon. The THICC.

>>31372
>>31473
>>31590

>>31616
>Bat-Waller /ss/ with Robin.

>>31682
It'd be something like this.

I tuned out of Marvel once Secret Wars - read a few of the tie-ins but never finished the main book and dropped everything after it ended. Did it turn out to be any good in the end, or was it just Hickman finally climaxing after jerking himself off for all those years on Fantastic Four and Avengers?

>>31325
Adult Cyclops did nothing wrong.

>>26530

How come /co/ doesn't, then?

>>31773
Nothing but fellating Doom and Richards. Even Ultimate Reed was pointless to the story.
ANAD sucked, and NOW 2.0 is just as bad. The big rumors when MMM was announced was that Marvel would be getting rid of the problems (too many legacies and no good talent), but they seem to be keeping all the same writers and combining the originals and legacies into the same books.

>>31773
>was it just Hickman finally climaxing after jerking himself off for all those years on Fantastic Four and Avengers?
The book had many white pages for a reason, anon.

Fuck sake

Both of these were me.
>>31248
>>31773

but given the answers I got
>>31325
>>31455
>>31854
>>31859
(much appreciated, /co/mrades)

I really want to give Marvel a chance but fuck's sake they just need euthanising at this point.

I've kind of gone off capes in general, Rebirth had me kind of interested for a bit but I couldn't be bothered keeping up with so many bi-weekly titles that I ended up just dropping capes. Like, they were fine, but nothing particularly interesting.

Marvel have some cool characters but they desperately need some talent. That Karnak book they had Ellis doing seemed kind of neat, but I never bothered to finish it with the delays. They need to just give away a bunch of quirky C-list characters and let creators run wild with them.

Maybe I need to give that Young Animal stuff a look.

>>31325
>how Adult Cyclops was worse than Hitler.
How did this happen again?

>>31773
It was the best linewide Marvel event of the last six years.

That's not saying much though.