/ck/ - Food & Cooking

How can a person who lacks knowledge or experience learn? I don't hunt, have minimal access to hunting grounds, and know no butchers, but I want to learn to cut up my own food. Poultry, maybe?

Also, why does my grocery charge good money for what they label 'stew meat', when I understand these are the cuts that aren't suitable for most other purposes?

>>4177966

do you work at an actual butcher's shop?
I live in the suburbs and always wanted to go somewhere to get good meats, but the supermarkets near me have subpar butchers, and rules about cutting meats.

>>4178110
>Also, why does my grocery charge good money for what they label 'stew meat', when I understand these are the cuts that aren't suitable for most other purposes?

really?
the supermarkets near me charge like 4 dollars a lb for stew meat.

>>4178124

Relative cost makes it difficult to judge pricing. I'm in the lower midwest which has a low cost of living relative to most of the US. But I can get pot roasts on sale for example at a cheaper per lb price than stew meats. And sadly there are no carnicerias here.

>>4178110

The best way to learn about meat cutting would be through an apprenticeship if you have a local butcher. Another way would be to go to a technical institution for it, as there are trade schools to learn how to butcher/cut meat. If you have grocery stores near your house that have meat cutters, you could get a job there and peek in on them/ask them to take you under their wing while they're cutting. It depends on how deeply involved you'd like to get with your meat cutting.

Typically "Stew Meat" is cut from the Round primal, and could be used for roasts or crock pots/slow cooking. The price of beef is steadily rising, and cheap beef is not as easily obtained as it once was. Other than that, I have no explanation for why stew beef is as expensive as it is.

>>4178119
I work at a local grocery store and cut meat there (boxed meat, but it's better than just stocking shelves). However, I was trained by old butchers that worked there and harvest and butcher for all my friends when they hunt and get sides of beef. I learned the old school slaughter methods and learned about proper beef preparation. Unfortunately, I don't work full time with it.

Best beef bones for stock and demi glace?
Favorite cut for braising?
Can a customer request a thick, freshly cut steak from a primal?
Hilarious/bad/allofyourwut customer interaction stories?

>>4178110

Unless you mean they're charging outrageous prices for shank meat and knuckle bones/knuckle meat... then that's completely crazy.

Is it true that lamb/mutton is going to be getting even more expensive with time? I'm just discovering Lebanese food and the price is killing me.

How does one become a butcher? Do you go to school for it? Or is it just you start off as a newbie and get on the job training?

What would be your first choice to cook to make use of oxtail or beef tripe?

>>4178141
If I were to share all of my terrible/hilarious butcher stories, I would probably hit the bump limit. I can give you one I ran into last week though, if you'd like.

For stock, I used to use marrow bones... But if I'm working with a lot of rib-eyes, I'll steal the beef spare ribs so I can get some fat, bone, and a little bit of meat for additional flavor. If you're picking (affordable) bones and just bones, I'd say marrow bones and knuckle bones fit the budget and should work relatively well for you.

I'm not the best with demi glaces, but my uncle is a phenomenal cook. If I see him before the thread dies, I'll ask for some of his recipes.

Braising... Well, the "Braising steak" is typically a bottom round, but they're not the best. You can really braise any piece of meat you'd like- it's just down to a cost-to-efficiency ratio. I suppose the bottom round would fit the bill if it needed to. I'm not sure what your budget would look like for it though.

Customers can request any thickness of steak they'd like, but it has to come from sub primals, as we only have boxed beef at the grocery store. If it was from my garage or wherever I'm cutting for a friend, that's absolutely possible.

>>4178147
Absolutely. Lamb is going through the roof lately, and mutton in general is becoming a less occurrent item to be sold in stores. At my store, fats that aren't attached to much meat are often discarded or thrown into the composting bin. I'm not really sure why they don't want to stock mutton or fats, but I suppose not enough people use it anymore to make it worthwhile getting in such a sensitive piece for the cost it'd take to bring it in and not sell a lot of it.

>>4178156
Trade school, apprenticeships, and shadowing. If you could find a job as a meat cutter or butcher without training, hop on it. The trade is dying off and there's less and less people who know how to do it ever year. I'm the youngest person I know that can still process a legged animal from a full carcass.
-On the job training for the position isn't nearly as common as it used to be.

>>4178157
I'm actually not a fan of beef tripe.
However, oxtail soup can be an absolutely delicious delicacy if you know how to properly make it. You can use cheek meat, neck meat, and tail (depending on if you get it as a bony tail, or a tail with some meat still on it... not that there's much on there) to make some very delicious bases and add whatever else you want to the pot for eating and more flavor.

What would you recommend for an inexpensive but tasty piece of meat?

>>4178187
The region and community environment effect the prices of particular pieces of beef. In my area, the best "cheap" cut would have to be Top Sirloin (commonly just called "Sirloin") or Steakhouse Sirloin. When they show up on sale in a store, they're one of the first steaks I would pick. I can see them for around 4.99/lb on sale in stores- though they're typically 8.99-9.99/lb in the local area.

They're typically fairly lean with decent fat coverage on the exterior and some stores on the interior as light marbling.

The Steakhouse Sirloin is a smaller piece off the top of the Top Sirloin that is better marbled, and is more tasteful and tender. I typically use them for tender tips if I'm not cutting a lot of fillets for the shelves or for customers.

How often do you get nasty surprises in the meat? like the puss filled abscess pictures that show up from time to time

>>4178187

If you're looking for roasts, stewing pieces, jerky making beefs, or something different from a steak, please let me know and I'll reconsider my answer for your particular needs.

>>4178210

I have yet to run into one since I've been at the shop (7 years or so). We definitely run into some bloodshot pieces or have some pieces that are terribly marbled or obviously mistreated beefs... But I've never ran into puss-filled meats or even spoiled meats.

The worse I saw since I've been here is a bloodshot piece of chuck roast with a broken cryo-vac. We had to discount the piece in order to sell it because it looked bad. It also had a little bit of blue dye on it since it was marked when it was processed at the facility it came from. Nothing was really wrong with it, it just looked unappetizing.

If you mean ever... Then I did have a deer one time that had the stomach hit by a knife when it was being field cleaned. I had to deal with bile-ridden meat in the lower quarter and some of the lower ribs had to be sacrificed from the side because of the contamination.

>>4178166

Yes to stories, yes to recipes!!!

>>4178141

Try to get your hands on neck bones for stock

>>4178223
I'll see what I can do about the recipes.

I was in the shop last week doing my normal business playing defense on the front counter (taking orders from customers, giving them items from our reach in case and cutting when needed for specialty items) when I had a huge hippo-looking broad get up in my face about the importance of a proper piece of meat for her 'holier than thou rich people's dinner'. She desired a lean piece of meat- so I began going over her options of fillet mignon, select grade New York Strips (as choice starts to have better marbling), and a few other generic steaks. She began telling me that they're not at all what she's looking for, and that I wouldn't know a good steak if it came up and bit me in the face. The regulars in the store were starting to feel uncomfortable as I began explaining to her what her options were from a standpoint of lean, tender meats (when cooked properly, of course). She got extremely loud and demanded a leaner cut... at this time, she saw the Eye Round steak in the case (Angus) and said that if it was leaner, she'd buy two whole Eye Rounds.

I decided to abide, and grabbed her to Select grade Eye Rounds. Typically, I wouldn't advise it- as they're notoriously lean and typically people end up over cooking them. However, she demanded it, so I got it for her. I explained that the fat on the outside would be an asset to keeping the crappy meat alive. She asked for ALL the fat to be removed from it, and even told me that if I delved into the meat some to remove all the exterior fat cab, she would be alright with paying for the lost meat.

After a few minutes of attempting to help her out, I ended up caving in and doing what she told me. I feared for my life and my job since she was essentially grabbing a shit-bomb cocktail, as the bitch was loud, obnoxious, and apparently very wealthy and well known.

I received thanks the next day.
-Everything went better than expected.

>>4178251
This is a very good option. Neck bone and oxtail are great for soups and stocks. I just don't typically have them on hand at the store, so I didn't bother mentioning them (as they're a specialty order most places around where I live).

>>4178254

Hahahah, wow. Speaking of good butcher stories, you might get a kick out of this one.

>>453292270

>>4178267

woops, lemme try that again, never linked across boards before.

>>>/b/453292270

>>4178270
If I ever had a shop, I wouldn't take shit from the customers either. I might not be quite as crazy in the return fire... but maybe if she deserved it I'd find a way to make sure she knew she was a "special" customer in my book.

We had customers take stickers off of bottom round roasts and put them over the fillet mignon price tags before. They got their full fillet (8lbs) for like 16.50 or some shit. I wanted to wreck them, but we're not allowed to get physical or voice our observation to the customers. They'll rob you blind if you don't put them in their place.

What are some cuts of meat that people normally don't get, that I can get cheaply? I'm thinking of stuff that is similar to the head, where I've heard people can make good soups from.

>>4178283
You can definitely get good soup from the cheek/neck meat and bones. I actually don't know anywhere where you can order a beef head though unless it's a local butcher. I don't have a pricing guide for that either.

The cheapest readily available piece of beef is typically the bottom round. If you have room in a freezer, you can get the whole bottom round. Typically you can expect a discount if you buy the entire piece. All you'd really have to do is trim the top cab and cut straight down. You'd also have to watch out for the silverside though. I have a video on youtube showing how to cut a whole bottom round. It's angus, but you'd get the idea. It's nice and slow too for learning about the piece.

Uncommon pieces in my area are tail, tripe, kidney (pretty much any offal), beef spare ribs (expensive around here) and shoulder clods. All of which are more expensive than the bottom round when it's on sale (with exception of the tail).

>>4178294
Helpful answer. Is it possible to ask the butcher to trim down the top cab for me and all that, or would I lose the discount?

>>4178294
do you just strictly deal w/ beef?

sounds like you've been talking strictly beef cuts

>>4178310
It depends on where you get it.

The main reason you would want to do it yourself is so you can keep the meat in the original cryo-vac it comes in (assuming you're getting it from a grocery store, and not a local butcher store/establishment). Cryo-vacs can last for weeks if you need time to clear out your freezer for the meat you'll be bringing home.

If you're not worried about that, the meat cutters will typically charge you the price of the meat before it's weighed, and then do whatever you tell them to do. Just keep an eye on them while they're cutting though, as they will often cut quickly and aimlessly-- especially at grocery stores. It's possible to lose a decent amount of weight if they're cutting carelessly and they'll just put some of your meat back into their lugs to cut for a later date. Honest stores wouldn't dare. But I've seen them do it at a few stores while I've been shopping close to my house when I was a little short for dinner.

Long and short- they should be willing to help assuming you pay for the original weight; so long as you don't need to take a few days to make room in the freezer for the other pieces of roast you'll get (or steaks if you like swiss steaks/braising steaks).

>>4178316
Oh, sorry. I took that question as it would pertain to beef (typically people in my area are mostly concerned with beef). I deal with beef, veal, lamb, chicken, turkey, bison, and venison. I try to stray from lamb and veal when I can aside from grinds- as they rarely sell on the counter or packaged when we send them across and it's quite expensive for the store to even pull in.

If you have a particular meat you're interested in, please ask and I'll direct my attention toward the other meats for your answer. If it's meat in general, I'll give you whatever information I can give you for cheap deals.

>>4177966
Is it true there's a section of meat in a chicken/turkey's thigh, right where the joint connects, that is the juciest piece on the whole bird?

>>4178340

Do you deal with smaller game meats, like rabbit, or non-chicken/turkey birds? If you do, what should I look out for when I buy those?

>>4178260

Yeah I've seen them once at a local supermarket which was a strange surprise, but never again

The asian markets near me stock them (and pork neckbones) though so that's one place to look

>>4178340
i was thinking chicken offal, like hearts, gizzards, livers. Have a southern grandma and love that stuff, any advice on purchasing, cooking, etc.?

only seen livers in a grocery once. deep fried em. everything else has been from a local joint

>>4178342

I know of two joint connective places with the thigh. There's a joint that goes between the drum and the thigh, and a joint that connects the thigh to the lower portion of the bird. The piece that connects toward the lower portion of the bird is sometimes called "the kernel" where the joint connects in a ball and socket type of connection that you can cut between. The other portion is between the drum and the thigh. To separate them, you can look for a thin fat line and feel around there to know where to slide the knife between. I don't know that there is necessarily a legendary spot that makes for the juiciest and most tender part of the whole bird, but the dark meat is certainly more juicy and flavorful than the white meat. It's also "not as healthy for you" as the doctors would say.

>>4178351
I actually haven't done much with rabbits or other smaller game. My friend is doing what he calls a "Wildlife Killspree" where he'll attempt to kill any living creature that moves while he's out hunting this season since he hasn't seen a deer in his typical hunting grounds for two years now. If he brings anything back for me, I'll post some videos on YouTube and you'll be able to look into it.
For the present time, however, I'm afraid I would be unable to help you at the current time with knowledge about the animals. However, if you have some local markets, you might be able to find them there. If you have a processing house near by (that does game processing), sometimes they'll keep a small portion of each animal they harvest in addition to being paid that they might be willing to part with. Otherwise, look for someone you know that likes to hunt and try to get in on their share.

>>4178355
Pork shanks (smoked) are also called "ham hocks"- they make for excellent soups due to their smoky flavor and the small amount of meat that they provide. It's typically a ham and bean soup that you make with it. If you can find those, they're typically relatively inexpensive and they add a lot to the pot.

>>4178359
Chicken offal is something that most people have specific recipes that they'll stand by and they won't use anyone else's- or at least that's how they act around my house. The hearts can be cooked/simmered in a pan with butter and your choice of seasonings if you so desire. They can also be sliced up and added to other dishes for baking, if that's more down your alley. I typically don't cook much offal, but a lot of people around where I'm from do. The livers are typically pan fried or deep fried (if that's your thing), and the gizzards are used often in recipes from other countries. I don't have much advice on the gizzards though... sorry.
To purchase them, check at a local market if your supermarkets or grocery stores are unable to pull them in for you.

>>4178385
thanks for the advice man, especially with the hearts. Didn't know that hearts had more leeway, i do know that it is hard to do anything to gizzards besides deep frying, but figured i'd ask if you had any idea what else i could do with them, as i've only learned from my southern side.

also, why sage your own thread? this has been one of the better threads on /ck/. alot better then the usual fast food thread

>>4178396
I'm saging to try to protect the bump limit. If the thread goes on for a few days, I'll be happy that I saged a few times so that it'll return to where people can access it again when it needs to return to the front few pages.

I'm glad you're finding the information useful. I'm sorry I don't do more with offal though. I do know the hearts are also good to use for giving dogs medicine as well. If you put a pill into the ventricle of the heart, it'll eat the heart without thinking anything of it, and the pill will be taken.

Chicken livers are also great for cat fishing if that's down your alley too.

Chicken necks and backs are good for crabbing- they go nuts for them.

Thanks for your compliment about the thread as well. I appreciate it.

>>4178398
didn't know about the necks with crab bait too, from Maryland and got family on the eastern shore. Good tip right there. Cheers man.

Do you get the whole animal or is it already skinned and stuff?
If you get the whole animal, is there any chance a person can buy skins from a butcher?

>>4178405
>go Niners

>>4178420

When I get them the skin is still in tact- the only thing missing is the innards from the field dressing. I've not been allowed to keep the hide yet, but perhaps next time I'm working on a deer I will hold the hide and have it tanned.

It's possible that if a butcher is processing something for you that you could get the hide back. It's unlikely that the butcher would keep hides on his person for later sale unless he knew someone was interested. You could try asking a local butcher before a season or harvest that you're looking for a particular type of skin or hide and he might be willing to save it and sell it to you. You'd need to get it from him shortly after it's harvested though so you can have it cleaned and tanned properly.

In short, ask around and see if they'd be willing to sell them to you. I know I'd probably keep the hides for myself since I intend to tan them anyway- but it's worth a shot.

>>4178429
Hm. Nice, I'll ask around then.
I want to try my hand at brain or egg tanning, see if I can make anything decent from it.

>>4178421
lyl

Headed to bed for the night /ck/. If you have more questions post them and I'll answer your questions when I wake up.

Best cut of meat for pot roast?
Questions I can grill a butcher with to determine experience? (c wut I did there?)

would you pre-clean pork intestines either on request or before selling them?

Thanks for the picture, that's good and I saved it. My uncle used to grow cattle and had this miniture bull all marked up to where the cuts would be.

Do butchers mind when people who aren't professionals at it ask questions? I try not to ask stupid questions but sometimes I have to ask the simple stuff to learn, then from that I learn what to ask later.

Also what if you cut yourself and some blood or a small body part gets on the cut of meat? Would you throw that contaminated piece of out of just clean it off and resell it?

Also what do you think about the horse meat contaminating the UK food chain? Is that prevalent? I have nothing personally against eating horse, I just think what's being purchased should be labelled properly.

Did your profession made you turn away from certain meats or preparations? My mom knew a butcher who said he refused to eat salami after he found out how it was prepared.

Good morning /ck/! I'll be online for a few hours if anyone has any questions.

>>4178845
For the pot roast it depends on if you want it to hold together in pieces, or shred itself apart. The Chuck Roast will rip apart very well based on the structure of the muscle whereas a Bottom Round, Rump, Bolar roast or Chuck Tender roast will hold together quite well. I would say your best bets (for the cost) are Chuck Roast (as it has adequate fat and excellent qualities) and the Rump roast (marbling and tenderness) so long as you're letting it sit for a long duration in the pot.

You can always ask questions about the beef that they may not know... Using secondary names for cuts still confuse me on occasion. Ask for English roasts/steaks (shoulder meat), silverside or gooseneck (both bottom round) sometime and see what they give you. Or if you have a real butcher, ask for a baron of beef or poderosa hip if you're looking to entertain for company and see what they try to sell you (pic related)

>>4178873
We don't mind answering questions at all typically. If I'm having a bad day in the shop, sometimes the questions make me feel better knowing that I'm furthering someone's learning.

If I would cut myself while working, the piece that gets contaminated with blood would either be thrown out, or I would take it home for my dinner; as typically cleaning it or refacing the piece would fix the problem- but I'd rather not risk customer health or satisfaction for a single piece of beef on such an important sanitation instance.

As far as the horse meat goes... Horse meat used to be relatively prevalent in the market for centuries in the past; in Europe the shops had to be properly marked with signs so people knew what the meat was. In the US, we have to label each product with its own individual label... so if there's horse meat involved, we would have to label it. You wouldn't find horse meat in anything at the shop I work at, and it is rarely found in local stores.

how do I dry age beef at home ?

>>4178874
We would absolutely clean pork intestines before selling them if we were a full slaughterhouse. How it currently stands, we order in our hog casings for our sausage from another company- and the sanitation of the intestines is actually a huge deal to the quality of the casing. If there's any residues left, the sausage (and the casing) become worthless due to contamination. Therefore, we can only order from the highest quality casing companies for general public sale.

Cleaning the intestines properly, however, is a pain in the ass. So I'm actually glad we pay the $16-18 a pound to get quality casings in.

Same thing goes for pig stomachs... There was a fiasco with them a few years back, but now they're being properly cleaned again and it's not an issue.

>>4178877
I haven't really turned away from any meats since I started working in the profession. The only thing I don't have any desire to use anymore is Eye Round. If you're looking for lean beef, you've got the right piece. If you're looking for a great steak/roast, look elsewhere. It also costs 5.49/lb at my store. Might as well be used for 93% beef... it'd sell better that way. But if it was all Eye Round the beef would be shit anyway... it's complicated to make good ground beef for a great color and good taste.

I also tend to shy away from any hotdog that's not all beef. If I'm worried about salami and bologna, I'll make them myself when I process a deer for a friend. Summer sausage and what not is delicious when done fresh. Knowing what goes into it and making it yourself from non-scrap and non-'leftover' beefs makes all the difference in the world for processing your own meats.

>>4179166
That's a complicated sort of question. For a real aged beef, you'll want a temperature controlled area with controlled humidity. If you're just concerned with a basic dry aged beef... you can do it in the fridge at your house (assuming no one will complain about having aging/rotting (essentially) beef in your fridge) by wrapping it in a bunch of cheese cloth. I don't recommend home-aging... but if you're going to do it make sure there's adequate fat on the piece you're buying. Be sure to know that the piece you buy will be shrinking not only due to the aging process, but will also end up shrinking more because you'll need to trim off the aged, dry exterior of the beef that is currently harboring fungal and bacterial colonies in it. Aged beef looks like hell before you trim it. The loss is acceptable, as the flavor gets much more intense than it would have been otherwise due to the natural breakdown of the enzymes of the beef and the assisting of the bacterias that will also be assisting in the breakdown.

If you decide to do it, be careful to keep an eye on the meat and make sure that nothing else is 'contributing' to the aging process. You also wouldn't want to let it go for much more than 5-7 days at a house unless you're ready to lose a LOT of weight from the piece. Obviously the longer it sits, the more you're going to need to sacrifice and the smaller the piece will naturally become due to shrinkage and drying of the beef, and from the bacterial colonies that will be attempting to claim your beef.

If you have more questions, please let me know.

>>4177966
from >>4178873

Thanks :-)

>>4179188

how would salt or nitrates impede or accelerate this process?

>>4179207
That's a solid question. Typically salts and nitrates are used as preservatives, so depending on how you use them it could effect the overall productivity of your efforts. I haven't experimented with it myself, so I hesitate to give you an answer in detail- but do know that preservatives will repel bacterial growth in moderate to high saturation levels. So if you're looking for the fastest growth and the most productivity for your time, I would avoid the salts and the nitrates (especially in higher concentrations)

>>4178110
when I killed my first deer I went to the library and checked out a book about butchering game. It took a few hours but I broke that sucker down nice and neat.

>>4179238
Good stuff. I don't know of butchering books/game books at my local library, but it's nice to know that there's libraries out there that have them.

I suppose books can be a decent source of information, but nothing beats hands-on training and observational techniques.

Glad to hear the book was enough for you to break down your deer though. There's a lot more to cutting meat than just getting the pieces into roasts and steaks though. I think that the poster would also be interested in knowing what parts are good for what, where they come from in the animal, grain/textural knowledge for muscles in the animals, and some other fun factoids. While books can be a great source of information, apprenticeships and hands on experience (in my opinion) are best suited for learning cuts of animals.

I'm glad to hear the book worked well for you though.

How did you get into the business?
I never hear or see much about Butchers. Is it a dying trade? Are robots/machines replacing artisan butchers?

>>4179300
I snuck into the business through the back door essentially. I was lucky enough to know three butchers over the years that I've been working at the local grocery store (two old generation one new generation). I was trained by the 3 guys in the back over the first year that I was there and I picked up additional knowledge as the years went on. All of the butchers are gone from the business since the old guys retired (in their mid-late 70's) and the new generation butcher left for another business since he could get paid his manager's rate for being a regular floor worker at another location. In the years that they were there, however, they taught me how to cut every single boxed piece and told me about separation of primals in a real beef/carcass. The real learning came when my friend killed his first deer. I got to apply everything I had been told by the butchers to a real animal. The person who enlisted my help had been butchering his own deer for years, and said he was so impressed with the cuts that I've been cutting for him ever since.

Poultry was the easiest to learn, but the biggest pain in the ass because of all the feathers and pin feathers. Breaking down whole fryers is a great place to start. Once you know the anatomy of the bird, you can buy the whole thing, take out what you want for dinner, and use the rest for stock (they typically come with giblets stuffed in them) and soups. It's a great experience to learn how to cut up a whole fryer because they're typically cheap (less than $2/lb in most areas) and you can get everything out of them.

In honesty, it is definitely a dying trade except for where butchers are getting their modern jobs... typically modern butchers work for wholesaling companies and cut the meat from carcass to sub primals and then they package them for stores. Machines aren't helping, but there's just not the same need for butchers as there used to be (from a store's view).

Couple of small questions:

Where are you located?

How would I go about better learning to butcher meat? I know you've sort of answered this, but are classes taught? I'd rather do that if I could.

Tbh I've never properly butchered an animal, despite living on a farm. I've killed plenty for butcher, but I was always worried about fucking it up after I ruined a duck, so I just let my father do it. He's not really capable of teaching me or doing it anymore, so I probably need to learn.

Unrelated and not a question, but I'm incredibly surprised eye of round is that expensive where you are. I see it on sale here for $2.99 a pound a lot, and tend to buy it. I do the most plebian thing, and if I don't chop it up for stew, I cook it whole in a pan until blue-rare in the middle and eat it like a caveman.

It's my secret shame, but it's really pretty damned delicious.

I'm also really surprised your store has such a limited selection of meats. Our walmarts are like that here, and stores in the south seem to be like that (I went to the Carolinas for three weeks and everything is pretty expensive, and there isn't much selection), but up here we have more beef cuts, some lamb (usually only the most basic cuts) and occasionally goat and venison in the store.

The "swap-meet" area gets all sort of unusual shit, like beef bacon, pig testicles and so on.

>>4179447
I'm actually headed out the door right now, but I'll answer your questions as soon as I get home tonight. Probably around 9:45 EST. Sorry to make you wait.
-The Butcher
For everyone else, if you have more questions please ask and I'll get to them as soon as I'm back from work. Thanks for your continued interest /ck/!

>>4179447

-I am located on the East Coast.
-I'm not sure if there are day classes or hands on classes that can be taken, but if you can find a butcher to take you under their wing for a little bit, that'd be a pretty sweet way to learn it. I'd say check around on the internet to see if you can find classes, but I am not sure if they exist.
- In regards to the "limited selection", we do have beef, angus beef, pork, turkey, chicken, cornish game hens (frozen), duck (frozen), veal (typically by order), lamb (typically by order), specialty patties (bacon cheddar, pepper and onion, steak patties, etc), and quite a few items I'm sure I'm missing. Typically people are most interested in beef though.

We get pigs feet, pig stomachs, cow heart, kidney and tongue on occasion. Rarely you will see ox tail or neck meat... but it's pretty rare.

If you have some questions in particular in regards to butchering, perhaps I could answer them more in detail in another post. Just let me know.

>>4180914

The thing with butchery is that it is no longer considered a skilled trade. It is mostly a lost art.

My dad went to school 30 years ago for butchery, I went to the same college and they no longer offer these courses.

The healthy butcher here in Toronto offers small night classes on butchery.

>>4177966
Assuming you work at a deli or have worked at one in the past, has anyone ever requested that you slice their meat sukiyaki style for them?
If no, would you do it if it was requested?

>>4177966
Why has flank steak and skirt steak become so expensive? Back in the day it was sort of an economy cut. Higher demand, I'm guessing. Dem fajitas. But yea it has become unreasonably priced here. Where might I go to find it cheaper? I've tried a couple Mexican carnicerias that had good stuff for cheap but the language barrier is a pain in the ass. Sometimes I wish I was a fucking Mexican, those places have some nice looking stuff for cheap.

>>4180927

I could try to post a few videos about cutting meat on YouTube again sometime. I make sure that I go really slow with it. Unfortunately, it's not really butchering- it's just meat cutting (taking sub primals from a box and cutting them into steaks/roasts). If you're interested in learning how to part out a whole bottom round, you can use this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aTp-6JdY

It's about 7 minutes, but it should cover everything you'd need to know about cutting one for the first time.

If enough of the community on /ck/ would be interested, perhaps I could try to get more videos online.

I agree that butchering can be an art rather than a trade... especially in modern times. However, It's an important trade for society- therefore, there should still be some schools/classes available somewhere.

>>4180947

Flank steak is sold whole, and there is only two on the whole animal.

Where as you can yield a whole load of steaks from a tenderloin or striploin. You only have two flanks, so increased popularity increases the price

about how long would you say is the typical time for hanging a freshly killed beef carcass?

>>4180940
I actually have no deli experience. I'm from a solely meat cutter, meat clerk, and butcher learning approach. I know how to make some bologna and salami if I needed to as well as sausage, but aside from that I'd have no idea what goes on in a deli.
I've cut plenty of items thin during my time in the department though. I've done plenty of Philadelphia style cheesesteak meat (thin cut/sliced Delmonico steak) though. Sorry I don't have much more information on that though. I'd be happy to slice meat as thin as anyone would require though if it was asked of me. If I can't do it by hand, the slicer can do it no problem.

>>4180947
Flank steak and skirt steak have become incredibly popular due to cooking channels and the broader acceptance of foreign cooking styles. Skirt steak used to be thrown away or ground into grinds because it wouldn't sell otherwise. Flank steak was considered tough since it came from the side of the animal. For some reason, we've developed ways to cook these particular items that make them come out delicious and tender, and for this reason they're now high class delicacies. Also, they are typically somewhat small pieces on the animal when you get them, so it's a quantity and demand for the pieces as well.

To get cheap Flank and Skirt Steak... I'm not 100% sure where you should go. Carnicerias would be your best option... but, I'm not certain of where else you could go. Sometimes you can find them on sale, and that's the best time to get them.

Another item that has gone up in price from being completely useless is the Flat Iron steak... Those were typically ground up too. Now they're $6.59 or so a pound around here.

>>4180965

Typical hanging time (beef is technically "aged" before it is boxed) is between 3-5 days around where I am. Though it's possible for a week or so to go by before it's completely parted out or sold if it's a local butcher shop. So long as the conditions are right, you are technically dry or wet aging the beef while it's sitting in the carcass and you will just need to trim off anything that's unappetizing.

Other areas will certainly have their own practices though.

>>4179172
i was referring more to chitterlings than casings, but thanks for answering. but are the customers supposed to wash them out again just to be safe? in this ethnic market i was afraid to buy pig stomachs that still had green residue on them

>>4181035
>but are the customers supposed to wash them out again
*how thoroughly are customers supposed to wash them out

>>4181035
Oh, my mistake.

I don't know the quality of anyone else's washing process, but I would check the intestines very closely to check for residues. Green residue doesn't sound like something I'd typically see with my casings... but, perhaps we get uncommonly cleaned casings. If you do get them, I would advise a thorough cleaning of the casings. Perhaps give them a nice bath and make sure that water is passing through the entirety of the intestine so that you can make sure you're removing all particles that are unclean. Some people would argue that you should boil them before you cook them, and some would argue that a nice warm water bath and a solid cleaning would do it for you. Not having cooked chitterlings myself, it makes it a bit harder for me to give you specific advice. I hope the general advice will be enough to help you make a decent decision next time you're at the market.

Poke around a bit to see if you can find anyone else with them too and compare the condition of the chitterlings or intestines.

Any more questions for me yet tonight /ck/?
I'll take as many as I can before I head to bed and I'll answer any unanswered questions as soon as I wake up.

>>4181269

Favorite cut and/or recipe?

Good morning /ck/ The Butcher is in for a few hours if you have any questions today.

>>4181343
To answer your question from last night...

My favorite cut would have to be the Cap Steak/Steakhouse Sirlion. It's very juicy, it has good marbling, and it has great flavor. You can use them for almost anything. Steaks, tender tips, stir fry, and even a roast if you get the entire cap. It's a bit expensive for a roast, but it's absolutely delicious.

My favorite recipe would take too long to figure out. I appreciate a lot of different meals for what they are, and some have childhood or family ties that make me think of them when I eat them. For these reasons, it makes it hard for me to select a singular dish.

Good evening /ck/. If you have any questions for me tonight, please ask. I'll be glad to help answer as many questions as I can before I retire for the night.

>>4181343
To answer your question from last night...

My favorite cut would have to be the Cap Steak/Steakhouse Sirlion. It's very juicy, it has good marbling, and it has great flavor. You can use them for almost anything. Steaks, tender tips, stir fry, and even a roast if you get the entire cap. It's a bit expensive for a roast, but it's absolutely delicious.

My favorite recipe would take too long to figure out. I appreciate a lot of different meals for what they are, and some have childhood or family ties that make me think of them when I eat them. For these reasons, it makes it hard for me to select a singular dish.

>>4178141
>Hilarious/bad/allofyourwut customer interaction stories?

"I'd like a 4oz piece of king salmon, please."
"OK ma'am, I've got his collar piece here, weighs 0.32 lbs."
>looks at scale
"No, no, that's not even 4oz."
"Oh, you see our scale reads in pounds, not ounces. 4oz is a quarter pound, 0.25 lbs. This piece is 7 hundredths of a pound over 4oz."
"Yes, yes, I understand. (smug grin) Try that bigger piece there."
"OK, this piece is 0.45 lbs, nearly a half pound, or 8 oz."
>looks at scale
"Good, just over 4oz, I'll take it!"

---

Over the holidays. Explaining how to cook a prime rib roast. Preheat oven to 500 deg, then reduce to 350 and cook 15 to 20 min per pound.

"OK, so I preheat the oven to 500, then reduce it to 350, then wait for the temperature to go down to 350, then put the roast in?"

---

Then you have the lady who comes in every night at 7pm, like clockwork. Really rude. Entitled. Will completely ignore you when you say "hello" or "can I get you something" then waits for you to turn away, then starts demanding something. Asks to look at every fillet mignon, we have like three layers on the tray, all basically the same. Take apart the whole tray, turn each and every one over so she can see the bottom. Then walks out without buying anything. Every single fucking night.

I don't even help her anymore.

>>4183341
We have some people like that where I work.

I've cut Prime Ribs for Christmas where they ask for the bone cut and tied. When they come in, they wonder why I cut the bone off and retied it. They said they just wanted a slight cut in between each bone. I tell them that's cracking the bone, not cutting and tying. They've done it twice.

Many customers don't know anything about the product they are getting, don't want you to explain it to them, and buy something completely different from the advice you give them anyway.

I cut a fillet mignon the other night for a customer who came into the shop extremely late. She demands 2 inch steaks. I assume she's a pro, because that's a pretty legit sized fillet mignon steak. I cut it, just as she asked at 2 inches on the dot. After I have cut all 8 of her steaks (2 butt tenderloins), she complains and says that I didn't listen to her because they're way too thick. I ask her what I can do to correct her order. She says she wants them half as thick as they are. I say it'll be no problem, and I'll be right back. I cut the steaks right down the center and take 8 of them back out to her. She says that they're too fatty, and no one would ever buy something so disgusting. >mfw I cut them as you would see on premier cooking shows and everything that is not proper has been removed. I ask her what she wants me to do to make the steaks right. She says they're still a little too thick and she wants any fat cut off of them. I bring out the saddest looking fillet steaks you've ever seen. They're about 1 1/4 inch in diameter, 3/4 inch thick, and completely devoid of fat. The marbling is very light too. She thanks me and takes her steaks (finally) but complains as she's walking away on her phone about the incompetence of the workers at my store, and that she's almost embarrassed to be seen shopping in our department because of our failures and lack of customer service.

I will avoid her at all costs for the rest of my life.

That's exactly the way my fillet migon lady is. She'll stand there and berate us if there is even a speck of white anywhere on a fillet. She'll strike up a conversation with any other customer nearby, pointing out to them how fatty our rib-eye steaks are, and why would anyone eat that? (come on, it's a rib-eye!) Most folks I'll do whatever I can to cut or trim something the way they want, but not her.

Another lady said "I'll take that pork chop, right there." Without pointing, or any indication which she wanted. Arms at her sides. (We have two kinds, plus a triple-deep tray of each.) I had to guess which she wanted, by pointing one by one, until I got the "right" one. She laughed at me, because I didn't instantly guess correctly.

A guy just yesterday wanted two 2" thick slices of swordfish. Got a loin out of the back, double-checked before I actually cut. Weighed two pounds. "Oh, too heavy." Made me cut one slice in half to 1". Nope, not right. Have to cut the second piece in half lengthwise. Etc. Ends up buying a 1" thick 1/2 lb piece, while I end up with $100 worth of swordfish I can't sell.

Happens a lot, where people expect me to cut something to a certain thickness AND have it come out to a specific weight. I can do one, or the other. . . .

>>4178166

Just going to add in here, veal bones are the best for a stock. Or a mix of veal and beef. Veal has more gelatin in it than beef

>>4178254

i always loved that. selling something like that to some know-it-all who thought because they had some money that they knew more about meat than those of us in the market.

all kinds of good stories from a meat market... regarding chitlin's, it was almost closing time and we had finished getting the market clean so were just out back talking when we heard people yelling out front. we walked out to find two huge black women screaming at each other, completely mad and looking like they were about to hit each other.

it turns out they were sisters, and were fighting because they both wanted chitlins, and were fighting about whose house they were going to cook them in. neither one wanted their house to be the one because of the stink.

I'm convinced some customers will ask your option, just so they can ignore it and contradict you.

Question for The Butcher, if you're still awake:

Did you have to balance different ways of doing things while you were being trained?

I'm being trained by one guy, 10 years experience in a super-high-end gourmet shop. Two other guys in the department, over 30 years experience, do some things differently. Not just a different style with the same results, but a totally different way of doing (say) sirloin steaks. All three of them get pissed when I do it "wrong" or think I'm being a smart ass if I mention someone else does it differently. As for trying to develop a style of my own, totally out of the question. I've been at it 8 months or so, I'm totally glad they took me on without any experience at all, and I'm really keen to learn the trade. Been going well (just broke down my first whole lamb on my own) but this one part is frustrating.

Did you have to put up with this? If so, how long before co-workers let you develop your own style?

>>4183628
Veal bones are banging. They aren't too common in my store though, so I don't mention them as much as I should. We have meatloaf mix with beef, pork, and veal though. I suppose I shouldn't limit my answers on /ck/ based on my shop. Sorry about that.

>>4183656
Never had a fight over that before. I did have a fight over an order before though. Two brothers ordered the exact same roast, and the cuts were literally .13 of a pound different. Both of them wanted the same roast even though they were both individually labeled. For some reason, the heavier one was more desired. They fought for a good 5-10 minutes on the counter with their roasts sitting out before a manager shut them up and sent them on their way. They both looked the damn same- if anything, the smaller one was a better roast because it was the 1st cut from a Rib Roast rather than the other one who had lost its 1st cut to a few delicious steaks for another customer... customers man, I don't get it.

>>4183690
I agree completely with your first statement anon.

I had 3 different people training me, and they were all completely different.

There were 2 older guys a tall one, and a short one and then the younger guy was just a big guy in general.
The tall guy taught me how to cut efficiently and taught me where everything came from, how to cut it, and how to keep it appetizing without losing excessive weight.
The short guy taught me to take my time with every cut, make it look great, and give it 5-star appeal so that I'd never get a steak to come back to me. He was also a cook at his own restaurant for a long time, so he also taught me about the aspects of cooking. To add to that, he was also Italian- so lamb and veal were not off the table as options for cooking and flavoring. He was a pretty awesome guy.
The big guy taught me how to flick a knife around carelessly (in appearance, at least) within an inch of losing a finger for speed, and how to cut poultry in the wink of an eye. All of them were old school butchers, so they had their own take on the proper breakdown of a carcass of beef. It was definitely trying for my learning; but what are you going to do?

I was told immediately that I needed to learn all of their various methods so that I could take what worked for me and turn it into my own meat cutting approach. However, I was told that I needed to do *their* methods first before I was allowed to use my own. Depending on who I worked with, I needed to cut their way. I thought it was a huge pain in the ass at the time, because sometimes I'd be on with 2 of them, and when one left the back room the other would say "now you need to cut like me". However, now that I look back on it... it really made meat cutting excessively easy and understandable. Once you know how to take a beef apart (or even a sup primal) multiple ways, you can use any of the ways to cut your steaks, strip a beef, or even trim a roast. (continued in next post)

>>4184362
>>4183690

With different cutting styles being learned, you will eventually be able to save even the ugliest piece of beef (if you ever get boxed beef or a bad steer) by cutting it in a different way than the typical "trim and down" method. One of my butchers taught me to cut every single steak at an angle so that I could use the ends for tips/stir fry and have great looking steaks every time (though the grain changes slightly, obviously). Another taught me to cut wedges for T-bones and Porterhouses. If you cut the whole thing at a light angle, there's no end piece that wastes some of the strip loin from being sold for higher price steaks.

There's a lot to be said for learning from other butchers. In honesty, it's more of a blessing than a curse. Learn all of their methods, and once you've got your place in cutting, start to make it your own. They'll probably be alright with it unless you've got some hardy "my way or the highway" butchers.

It took me more than a year to learn everything the way all of them wanted it learned, and that was before they let me work on a carcass of beef anyway... I got to do a deer a few years later since my store doesn't allow hanging beef.

Long and short of it, be thankful that you're able to learn the butchering art- as it is a dying one. Even though it sucks to put up with all of the butchers at the same time, they're actually doing you a favor in the long run- so take in as much as you can and work through it all. I'm sure you'll get your own cutting style over the next year or so. Just know that it'll change for a while before it sticks with you, as you will have your own experimentation to do as well before you have your own tried and proved methods for cutting.

Best of luck, and best wishes
-The Butcher
(If you have more questions, please ask)

Any questions for The Butcher today /ck/?

>>4184356

No need to apologize

Wasn't trying to undermine you or anything, just adding on top of what you were saying, from a cooks perspective.

For a beef stock veal bones are the best, however there isn't as much to go around, and they are much more expensive. In terms of what kind of bones though, I would think you and I agree that shanks and leg bones are best? Or yyou have a differing opinion?

What is your opinion on short ribs? I live in South Texas, so this cut is incredibly common in most grocery/meat markets. They are tasty when prepared correctly and grilled over a mesquite fire. They typically go for $8-10 for two racks containing about a dozen ribs. I've heard they are more expensive up north where a friend that lives 2 hours away tells me they go for $14-16.

>>4184727

I forgot to add that the ribs are center cut.

>>4184700

I do believe that shanks and leg bones work the best as far as I've experienced. One of my friends says the best thing to do is buy a veal breast, cut the breast thin and cook it to your preference and to use the veal breast bone for your cooking. I think it's too lacking of marrow compared to shank or leg bones, but he claims it works well.

>>4184727
It would depend on if you're talking about bone-in short ribs or boneless short ribs. The price on the East Coast where I live is approximately $3.99-4.99 per pound for boneless short ribs.

I'm not sure if the short rib changes from location to location, so I'll double check. The short ribs where you're from are cut from the Chuck section, right? They're quite marbled and are delicious and juicy if they're from there. (pic related)

We don't sell bone-in short ribs where I work, so I couldn't really tell you a "per rack" cost. We typically sell them in packs of 2-4 pieces at $3.99-4.99 a pound. They're definitely more expensive than they should be up here though. I know we could sell them for less and still make profit. They're not huge sellers here though for some reason, and sometimes get sent back to be ground up because of it.

>>4184742
Ah... post came in after I was typing and refreshed.

If they're center cut ribs, that'd probably be beef spare ribs... are they like pork ribs but beef? (pic related again)

I would hate to give you the wrong price/identification and have you lead astray- let me know what's up in your next post and I'll try to get to the bottom of it for you.

>>4184754

Yes you are correct they are center cut bone in short ribs. We affectionately refer to them around here as 'costillas'. If you are ever down in South Texas I'll cook you up a traditional carne asada. You can see the ribs on the grill, pic related.

>>4184774

Here's another picture.

>>4184780

They almost look like center cut beef spares to me. Just given the concave nature of the bones in the pictures and judging by how the bones are on the center of the beef and not near the edge. Perhaps my eyes are a little shaky on it since they're cooked and not raw. Either way, they're around $5 USD around where I live per pound and a rack is typically more a pound or more. I'd say 2 racks would probably net $10-18 bucks depending on the size of the steer it came from.

Either way, they're delicious little bits and I'll know what to ask for if I'm in Texas now if I'm looking for some good ribs.

Thanks for the info- I'll toss it up in the cap.

>>4184813

You are quite welcome. Always great to expand your knowledge. Another traditional cut you see in the pics is skirt steak, used to make fajitas. These are tricky to make if they not marinated/tenderized or cooked correctly. They can be incredibly tough and dry to chew or flavorful and extremely juicy. I usually ask/look for the cuts with the most fat and marbling. They have to be kept on eye on when cooking because of the difference in the thickness along the cut, which means you can easily burn one end and barely cook another. Very tasty and tender if marinated in lime juice.

>>4184886

Skirt steaks are great for fajitas. Most places around here don't carry them though. I get a lot of folk coming in and asking for them- but we rarely stock them at my store.

Less commonly known- there are 2 skirt steaks--> Inside, and Outside. (picture related)

As far as I know, skirt steak is skirt steak... but you guys might know better down south than my local area would.

>>4178342

yes, my dad always called this the "oyster"

he'd eat one and give me the other whenever we ate whole birds.

it is of course dark meat, which is in general much more tender than breast meat

Is there an easy way of removing the fell from lamb? That stuff is a pain in the ass and it means I can't brown the outside properly.

>>4184944

Good to know it's called the "oyster"- Thanks for that. I do a lot of cutting, but I don't cook as often as I should... sometimes little bits like that get away from me. We just know of it as "the kernel" since it's a small area of tender meat. I was unsure if the cooking lure was true of it being the most tender bit ever, but I knew it was definitely a nice bit of meat attached to the lower back there.

Most of the day crew that works out front don't bother to save that piece when they're cutting up a whole frying chicken for a customer. They just cut between the joints and don't bother to start the cut, dislocate the joint and pull the rest of the leg off to keep the meat in tact. Granted, they're not really meat cutters, they're just staff on the front counter to wait on people. I guess someone will have to knock their blocks and fix it if they're leaving that tender bit on the back of the chicken for 'stockable product".

>>4184961

In a larger piece of meat the fell actually helps hold the juices in and keeps shape of the meat. The fell does have some variety of flavor to it though, so I suppose if you're looking to eliminate it, it makes sense- especially if you're doing a smaller piece of lamb. Typically the lamb at the store already has the fell removed by the time it's sent to us.

However if you did have to remove it... The fell is a relatively thin layer of material. Therefore, the best way to remove it is to work your way from one end. What piece are you trying to remove the fell from?

If you have an exposed end of meat, you can start from there. You'll want to get the knife underneath the fell and start making a small pocket so you can get your fingers on top of the fell. You'll then hold the fell with one hand, and cut open the pocket on one side and continually work down the opened side to eliminate the fell from that region. Then you can do the same on the other side. You will lose minimal meat if you keep tension on the tissue as you're removing it so that you can cut as close to the fell as possible and the meat will try to fall out of your way as soon as the fell is coming off.

It's like taking the silver side off of a fillet mignon.

At least, that's how I was taught. There's more than one way to skin a cat (or remove a fell in this instance).

It's still annoying no matter how you do it though.

Any questions for me tonight /ck/?

>>4185965

Sometimes I get airtight packages of meat from a fairly decent butcher that have a funny smell when I first open it. Usually if it's when I just brought it home, I dismiss it and I cook it anyway, but sometimes if it's in the fridge for a few days, I get paranoid and toss it. Is there a way to distinguish between innocuous smell and bad smell?

I'm going to be living in new york city in the next couple of months.

I probably won't have access to a typical grill so what kind of cut would make a good steak absent of the grill?

>>4185976

Depending on the type of plastic used for the cryo-vac, a strange odor may be emitted from the packaging when it is first opened. If it smells foreign, strange, and artificial, it could be that smell.

However, if you remove it from the packaging and allow it to sit for a short while and the smell persists, there's a chance that something is wrong with your meat. You can always look for signs of spoiling as well. Look for discoloration (specifically green... as browning is a natural color change for meat called "the bloom"- meat turns red after being fresh cut and (within even hours sometimes) eventually the meat will brown again.

If you're really worried about a specific piece of meat, let it sit our for a few minutes and sniff it again. If you're worried about the smell yet, put a small slice into the beef. If the smell worsens, it's likely that your meat has spoiled or is starting to turn depending on the scent.

As the old saying says-- "When in doubt, throw it out", but many times people will throw away a piece of beef that is browning and doesn't smell bad; and that is unfortunate. Just make sure you give it proper time before sniffing it- as sometimes it's just the cryo-vac or sealing process that will lend some smells to the beef when the packaging is first opened.

>>4185976
The smell of spoiling beef is completely recognizable for me, but it's hard for me to describe it to someone else... It'd be possible to tell if your nose got attuned to smelling spoiled pork, beef, and chicken. Until you know the scents though, I'd advise the method I have stated above.

Another fun rule is to say never leave a meat product in the fridge for more than 3 or 4 days... You don't know when it was cut (unless you have a butcher locally that cuts it in front of you), and you don't know how long they've had the cryo-vac'd beef before they cut it.

I figure if the beef is 5 days old, that's it's last day of life. Always assume it's 2 days old when you buy it, and use those last 3 days wisely to cook it. Obviously if it's a cryo-vac'd piece (airtight), then you have more leeway and can keep it around longer. But if it's just wrapped, my above rule applies.

I don't leave a cryo-vac in my fridge for more than 10 days, even though I know it can last much longer. Also look for expirations dates or best by dates just in case it was cut before the butcher got it, or in case it has some valuable tips on it.

>>4185982
Good steaks without a grill? Give me a minute or two to think about it and I'll write back soon.

>>4186008
>>4185982


The best steaks I can offer you are Flank Steak (if you must), Bottom Sirloin Tri-Tip Steak, and Top Sirloin Cap Steak (Steakhouse Sirloin). You *can* do other steaks pan frying or sautéing, but these are probably going to be your best results given your situation. If you're alright with roasting, dutch oven, or crock potting some meat items, I could give you some assistance there too.

Skirt Steak (fajitas), Tender Tips and Toast, and Beef Stir Fry would also be options that you could use with the top of the stove for some quick cooking and good tasting meals.

Let me know if there's something else I can help you with.

>>4186027

Would you happen to know what kind of steaks would tenderizing the steak be good for its taste for cooking?

My brother pounded out some thick peices of steaks into thin slaps and did a dry rub of montreal followed up by Worcestershire and it came out delicious, if salty from the montreal.

>>4186038
Pounding out steaks/tenderizing steaks can be done to just about any steak, in honesty.

Some steaks take it better while maintaining their shape than others though, and some steaks don't really need to be beaten to be tender and delicious.

Assuming you're talking about cheaper steaks that tenderizing/beating would help a bit... I would suggest the following: Bottom Round Steaks, Eye Round Steaks, and shoulder steaks.

Considering that these steaks come from hard worked sections of the animal, it is natural that they will be less tender than other steaks. For cost's sake, however, they are relatively cheap (especially when on sale). If you marinade them for a day or so, or even put some vinegar on them or just pound them out... any of these will help these steaks to be more tasty, and more tender.

However, something that should be said is that seasoning and proper cooking are almost as important as the cut of meat you buy... so if you bought good mead, and good seasonings, there's a decent chance that you wouldn't have needed to pound the steaks out- but they still yielded a good result for you in this instance.

The tl;dr of this would be "any steak can be tenderized, marinated, or pounded to help break down the meat" and "some steaks desire the tenderizing more than others" Just remember to cook them medium or so (less if you'd like) and that will also help to assure juicy meat and good texture.

Marbling on the original piece is also incredibly important as is the grade of the beef that you bought in the first place... If you have more questions about particular pieces, please let me know and I'll delve into more detail for you.

I've heard it alleged that many seemingly reputable steak houses secretly use jaccards, either intentionally or because their suppliers use them.

What's your take on this?

>>4186092

I'm not 100% sure on that situation. I'm not at a steak house, nor do I claim to have connections to any... but I know we use an older hollymatic or similar make tenderizer for our shop- but there's certainly better tenderizers out there. I was taught the old method of using a hammer with a lightly spiked side and a flat side. That always worked well in the olden days- but tenderizers have come a long way since primitive methods such as that.

Sorry I don't have more information for you anon. Was there anything else I could help you with?

>>4184362
Thanks for your reply!

I am thankful to be learning this, especially as I was unemployed previously, and I try to keep it all in perspective. Still, frustrating at times tho.

Are all butchers extremely OCD? The ones I work with sure are.

What kind of knives do you use? Butcher with a wide tip, cimeter, breaker? Of the three butchers I work with one uses a 12" cimeter, one a 10" butcher, one a 10" breaker. Of course, each claims that's the only knife to use!

>>4184908
We sell the fuck out of skirts here. (West coast.) Both plain and marinated. Like, two or three cases a week. $13.99 a pound. Pain to prep, not hard, just tedious. Usually the new kids get that job.

>>4184369
Usually our short loins have a fairly square face on the porterhouse end, and angled on the t-bone end. We just follow the porterhouse face, and live with the waste on the t-bone end. Are you saying to cut each steak at a slight angle, so by the time you get to the t-bone face you come out even?

The two older guys just use the bandsaw only for short loins and bone-in rib-eyes. My main trainer cuts the meat with a knife first, then uses the saw to go through the bone. Which do you do?

BTW, we have that same laminated chart on our wall.

>>4187741
I'm surprised that someone else has that chart :-p It's a bit aged, I'm afraid. It's got a ton of pertinent information on it though, so I suppose that's good.

The butchers I know are OCD, and I am OCD to an extent; though I understand that being too OCD costs the business too much money and allow some things to go through as they must.

I use Victorinox Forschner blades specifically (cheap, efficient, and keep a pretty good edge)-- but there are some better knives out there. Typically I have a 10 inch Cimeter and a 6 inch boning knife/6 inch fillet knife. Both curved, semi-flexible blades. I always use wooden handles because I have highly sensitive hands. The wood conforms to my hands need of warmth and I only use one gloved hand while cutting (part of OCDs perhaps, I'm really not sure why I learned that way). If I'm butchering a full animal, it's both hands on deck and plastic handled knives; but the same arrangement. Tips are tapered down instead of being wide due to my sharpening technique.

I wish we sold skirt steak more here- people ask for it and we never have it. It's only 8.99/lb here I think... but we could charge whatever we wanted and I'm sure it would sell. We can actually order in skirt steaks if we wanted prepackaged to go out into the reach in pre-wrapped storage area.

I was taught (no one else does it now... the new butchers don't do shit compared to the old guys... Especially since the last of the original butchers has left) to cut *every* steak at a slight angle to eliminate the waste at the t-bone end. If you fucked it up badly enough, you would sacrifice a small end piece either way- so learning the angle wasn't troublesome or terrible. If you got it right though, the store made an extra couple of bucks and you'd learn for personal experience (if you ever opened a shop) how to save a short loin from destruction.
(continued in next post)

>>4187741

In terms of using the bandsaw... I was trained to use it for every bone-in cut (strip loins, bone-in dels, strips, etc) unless it was a special preparation or there was a special need from the piece. At that point, you prep it in the special way, and then you would cut everything else regular.

I can see the importance of cutting everything individually before using the bandsaw to cut it (saves the characteristic of the face of the beef and many other considerations), but I was taught to use the saw as often as possible because of the quick-fire rate of sales and the importance of stocking the shelves. If the shelves are even slightly empty at my store, the GM gets wind of it and he yells at us to pile them high- even if we know they won't sell as quickly as he thinks they will. It's a shame, but the saw is a much-needed item in our quick-moving lifestyle. If we had a little more time, we'd probably separate the meats and cut on the saw; but that's not how I was trained.

You can do it whichever way you see fit. Think of your time constrains and the quality of beef your customers demand before deciding on a technique for your own use.

>>4188025
Store has been there 14 years, I think. The chart has prolly been on the wall the whole time. I refer to it a lot, when someone asks for something by a name I'm not familiar with.

Right now I have a Forschner 12" cimeter, an 8" breaker, and a 6" non-flexible boning. Was thinking of adding a 10" butcher (pictured, but plastic, cuz I have no money) and an 8" flexible boning.

See, porterhouses are a lot more popular here, so we get as much as we can from that end. I can see how starting with a bit of an angle might get you another t-bone tho, have to try it out. (When no one is looking) Still pretty scared of the saw, old guys think it's funny.

Two of the guys I work with have been at it forever. One for grocery stores, one for butcher shops. (Yes they argue.) No lack of experience here. Both are fully capable of breaking down a whole side from a hook.

>You can do it whichever way you see fit.
I long for that day!

Not an option for me yet. I do it the way my trainer does it, no other way.

>>4188223

Yeah... Rosewood handles can be expensive- and they're also less sanitary. I actually agree with the ideals of the plastic handle, but I'm spoiled at the store since I only need to use one hand. I place the knife away from wet and dirty surfaces when I'm not using it, and only one hand touches the meat. If I had to use both hands, I'd suggest the plastic handled ones anyway.

I don't have any variety of butcher knife specifically picked out for my use, but perhaps someday I will decide that I need more than the Cimeter, the boning, and the fillet knives. I can get just about everything done with just those 3 knives; so I'll pick up a few others ones when I can.

It's actually a good thing to be scared (or at least mindful/understanding) of the saw. Once you're too comfortable, that's when the problems start. One of our newer butchers gave himself a nasty little cut- if he wasn't wearing his wedding band, he might've lost his finger, but he managed to save himself with only minor injuries because the ring caught before his finger did.

It makes them laugh because they can probably remember when they were leery of the blade themselves... so don't feel too bad my friend. I'm pretty comfortable with the saw- but I'm also relatively slow and mindful while using it.

You'll get to pick the cuts sometime, don't worry. Just make sure you pass all your trials before you try to pick out your own style. Once you've got all the hurdles out of the way, I'm sure they'll let you use what's comfortable for you (though you may find one of their methods to be the best).

>>4188661

Just to add in here with knives

This is my late 1800`s I (J).Wilson butchers knife. Used to cut the shit out of buffalo on the frontier. It is pretty fucking cool, thought you guys would enjoy

>>4188727

That's pretty cool man. Just goes to show you that a properly maintained blade can last a really, really long time. This is part of why picking a good quality constructed blade is as important as it is.

Thanks for sharing your piece with us.

>>4188752

I don`t know how well maintained it was, but it still has an edge, albeit a rather dull one, and the handle is cracked, and I am not sure if the handle is original or not. But for a 150 +/- year old knife it is in farely good shape. Also only cost $20.

I have had it for about a year, but I really have no use for it unfortunately, i've been thinking about get a job at a butcher shop (dad used to be a butcher, and I am a cook) but i don't know if I would use it or not.

I have to work on the blade aswell, get it up to shape

Ever wonder how much you're paying vrs how much it costs the store to get in products? What to know when you're paying too much? I can help you guys with that too. I've got the pricing book beside me right now (from Jan 13th for East Coast beefs) if you'd like to ask me any questions.

It contains numbers for beef, pork, veal, lamb, Deli Meats, Seafood, and some other items as well (Pic related).

Shoot me a message and The Butcher will check it out for you.

Just remember- overhead is a huge factor behind the pricing of beefs and so is employment, waste, and cutting costs. For these reasons, the prices in the book may seem excessively low, but in reality, the margins aren't quite as bad as they seem (for fresh cut meats... deli is a different story).

>>4188787

For 150, it's not in too bad of shape ;). The steel is still in tact, the handle is at least still together (could be rotten by now), and the blade could still be worked and trued again to be perfectly usable in a store. I'd recommend using stones if you are planning on sharpening it... but you could use an auto sharpener or a grinder if you needed to (depending on how bad the edge is, or how much time you have before you'd like to use it again). Getting a job as a butcher (at least in my area) is a rarity. If you're interested, I'm sure you could make it work though :).

>>4188804

I don't think I quite understand what's being offered here. You have access to prices for the whole animals? Or recommended prices for cuts?

Ever wonder how much you're paying vrs how much it costs the store to get in products? Want to know when you're paying too much? I can help you guys with that too. I've got the pricing book beside me right now (from Jan 13th for East Coast beefs) if you'd like to ask me any questions.

It contains numbers for beef, pork, veal, lamb, Deli Meats, Seafood, and some other items as well (Pic related).

Shoot me a message and The Butcher will check it out for you.

Just remember- overhead is a huge factor behind the pricing of beefs and so is employment, waste, and cutting costs. For these reasons, the prices in the book may seem excessively low, but in reality, the margins aren't quite as bad as they seem (for fresh cut meats... deli is a different story).

>>4188812
I have the books that have what it costs per pound to get meats in. Just pieces- like you'd see in a grocery store. I could find out side prices too if you're interested. The book is over 150 pages long.

>>4188821
>>4188812

For instance: Flank Steaks, Whole Bottom Flat (bottom round and rump roast), Denuded Inside Round (top round steak, top round roast, london broil), Fillet Mignon, etc. I have pricing for all of the cuts- all in 3 grades: Angus, Choice, and Select gradings as well.

I have deli meats by different providers listed at their loaf price per pound, seafood prices per bushel, per pound, etc. and many other prices. If you were looking for anything meat related, I probably have a price for it for you.

>>4188661
Yeah, the guy who's training me watched a guy lose a finger on a bandsaw. (not at our store) I brushed my finger against the blade when it was running once, but didn't break the skin. I did cut myself on when it wasn't running, cleaning up one night. Really nasty, rough cut.

The experienced guys all have rosewood handles. That, and the scalloped edge, would have more then doubled the price of my cimeter. I'm actually known for keeping my knives sharper then anyone else in the meat dept, so I kinda enjoy having the cheap shit, that works better.

That's the only thing that gives me pause, having even more knives to sharpen at the end of the day.

Sounds like your dept is more concerned with sanitary conditions then mine. We had, I swear, an inch deep lake of turkey slime in the walk-in during the holidays.

So, how much for a whole CA grass-fed free-range lamb? I think I remember $140 here?

>>4188892

Since we're not allowed to have hanging beefs/whole animals in the store where I work, we're not given the option in the books. I could take some time to find out if the manager has any connections, but I'm sure a whole lamb would be balls expensive in my local area to be shipped from CA... Even chops are excessively expensive here lamb trimming (non natural) to order into our store are 5.75/lb. The lamb rack is 6.29/lb ordered in. Anything with "Natural" or "Organic" on it is exceedingly expensive to the note that we don't like to pull it in unless it's a special order.

tl;dr: We don't get full carcasses in at the store I work at, so the pricing manual doesn't have a slot for that. Sorry anon.

>>4188853
So, is Angus more then generic choice?

We consider Angus from IBP the cheap stuff. Like, when a steak is on flyer that week we get that in. Also for the basic flanks, tri-tips, skirts, etc. We use Painted Hills "choice or higher" for the good stuff. No prime tho. Although sometimes you cut up a strip loin and it looks like it should have been graded prime.

Do you sell a lot of select? Or any prime?

>>4188919
>Sorry anon.
No worries. This thread has been very informative.

I think CA zoning prevents us from having beef sides on hooks, but for some reason we can have a whole lamb hanging from a metal shelf in the walk-in. We get one a week, plus extra racks and loins. That's the only thing we get whole tho.

We don't do any meat at all that isn't all-natural. Not organic red meat tho, just chicken.

>>4179172
>it's complicated to make good ground beef for a great color and good taste.
I'm intrigued by this. Can you share any tips?

Basically we grind up whole chuck rolls, plus any fatty trim for the 80/20 "ground chuck", and whole knuckles plus any lean steak trim for the 90/10 "ground sirloin". Fresh every morning before opening, plus usually need to re-grind a couple times during the day.

Older guys make fun of me cuz my rolls aren't neat enough.

>>4188927

We get Prime in on *rare* occasions. I've seen it 3 times. One time we had Bottom Round roasts and Bottom Round Steaks on sale (high markup anyway) and we couldn't pull in any pieces that were select or choice. This forced us to look into Angus. Angus was sold out for the next 2 days. We had to get Prime in. They looked amazing. The only other time I saw Prime was when we had briskets on sale. The promoter wrote down the price wrong, so it was only a few cents more than choice grade... so we got them at the "advertised price". It was pretty sweet. A lot of happy customers that week.

Back to your other question though... We offer Select as regular beef, and Angus as Choice beef. We can, however, get Choice beef if that isn't Angus. There is a price difference, but not much of one. Customers don't know that though, and pay high difference between the two meats.

We avoid getting Choice in the ready-serve case because they get really confused at why one Choice meat costs more than the other... Therefore, we just say "Regular beef and Angus" or "Select and Choice".

We use IBP, Swift, Creekstone (great shit- also Angus), and a few other brands on occasion. I've seen some things come from Creekstone that were marked in their lowest grade that looked like it could've been Choice or Choice+... But they also sell 3 grades of higher graded beef. They have "Master Chef Prime" grade if you've got balls of steel and a lot of money. You need to buy it by the case and the prices would kill most mortal men. But if it's *that* much better than the low tier that they sell, it just might be worth it.

We think that IBP is cheap Angus too... but it's the best profit rate as well. Most people in the area have no idea what a good steak is- so it sells with great speed.

>>4188966

I wish we only carried all-natural beef. Granted, the companies we buy from aren't known for being abusive or buying bad cattle... but we don't pay a premium for 'all natural' labeled beefs.

We do have Harvestland chicken that is all organic, vegetarian feed raised, no hormones added, no steroids... no anything bad, essentially it's everything except for free range birds. Though I assume they live a very good life. The chicken breasts are individually wrapped in the packaging so you can chose how many you want to eat at a time. It's pretty sweet. The taste is golden too.

In regards to the grind specifics... think about it this way.

Using ground chuck and some trim for 80/20 will really give you about 72-38 to 75-25. Back in the day, "Ground Chuck" rating was achieved by using merely Ground Chuck- and it is associated with being 80/20 because of the natural fat in the Chuck Roll. If you add extra, the color will still be good if it's a fresh Chuck, but you're going to delve a little further into the fattier region.

That being said... Think of 90/10 or 93/7 (for my area) -- Ground Sirloin is a delicious meat. But why? It's lean- so it should be less flavorous than other beefs. Fortunately for the Ground Sirloin, it has something going for it: The Sirloin beef is a great piece of beef. It has good flavorful characteristics to it; and therefore will taste good ground. Now think of your other option for the lean grind... The Whole Eye Round. Based on the structure of the muscle and the abuse it has taken (more than the Sirloin), the meat should be not as good tasting as the Sirloin would be when it is ground. The color of an Eye Round is also different from the Sirloin. This will show when the meat is ground.

Depending on the types of meat and the age of meat that you grind, it will effect the coloration of the beef. The fat can also change the color depending on the grind cycle you use (2/3 passes or more while traying it). Grinding is a real art.

>>4188966
>>4189009

Following up from the last post...

You say the butchers laugh at the way you put the beef into the tray for your rolls... how deep is the tray? I might have another option for you to help ease yourself out of having 'mis-shapen rolls'... we use 3 or 4 different grinding techniques for the beef depending on who is in charge of grinding. Two of the ways are sure sellers, and two of them are hit or miss.

>>4189012
I should maybe clarify. We don't have a pre-packaged section. Only the meat case, where customers have to ask us for something, and we weigh and wrap it to order. The grind trays are black plastic deals, an inch deep, I'm guessing 8" or 9" by 12".

The beef gets ground twice. Second time you hold your hand against where it comes out, and use a swirling motion to create ridges in the roll. Finished roll has to weigh 5 lbs. Ridges have to weigh 1 lb each. Three rolls per tray. Chuck rolls go sideways, so the ends meet the edges of the tray. Sirloin rolls go on end, so one end is on the bottom of the tray, the other sticking straight up. These taper a bit towards the top, have perfectly broken off ends, and don't lean to one side when placed in the case, which has a tilted bottom.

This is the one thing everyone agrees on, and no deviations are acceptable.
(I may sound bitter about all this OCD stuff, I'm not, I think it's a riot.)

I'd love to hear your way tho!

Anyway, we don't throw pure fat trim in the grinds. I'm talking ends and unusable bits. If it looks like a chuck level of fat, into the "ground chuck" bag, leaner into the "ground sirloin" bag. We don't actually advertise fat ratios, only when customers ask do we say "about 80/20".

Just looked at Creekstone, seems pretty similar to what we use (Painted Hills) for standard steaks. A bit odd that they only show cooked meat on their site tho.

>>4189077
They only sell cooked meat to the public. You'd have to pull their meats in through a wholesaler if you were interested in using their products (I think it's American Foods that sells it). I have a pricing catalog from them if you'd like to know more about it. You'd have to send your request to my e-mail account though so I can e-mail you the pages. I'd rather not make them absolute public knowledge since it's not typically sold to the public (the raw meat, that is). You can e-mail Butcher.op@gmail.com with any questions (if threads are dead) or if you're just interested in the charts.
About our "pre packaged section"-- I worded it poorly. The store I work in is a full-service grocery store with counters for the Deli, Meat Department, Seafood, and for the Bakery. We offer excellent fresh and daily made products for the customers. Obviously some of them have bagged goods that come in, and others are absolutely on-the-day cuts and products.
The "Pre packaged" sections we sell from in my department are meats that came in cryo-vacs and we cut up on the spot and then package to go across for easier consumer consumption. Typically we make 1-1.25lb ground beef packages to go across and packs of 4 patties (80/20, 85/15, and 93/7 respectively). We then put the stir fry, beef cubes, and tender tips directly beside them. Then we have meatloaf mix, lamb patties and veal patties on the top shelf, and many other products that we put in value packs (larger but cheaper) and regular portions (regular costs). Everything we sell is either in the original cryo-vac like it came to us, or fresh cut and packed by us to go across every day.
We use a triple grind system for beefs if no tubes are involved (we have trouble keeping up for the demand of beef since grinds sell more than we can cut in a day)- grind 2x, tray on the 3rd. We use the rounds method as well, but since many of the grinders are counter workers with no knowledge of beef, we're not as specific about the weight.

>>4189108
>>4189077


Continuing from the last post (sorry it got stuck together-- 2000 character limit is annoying)...

The other method we use is a flat-laying method. It entails keeping a steady stream of meat coming out of the grinder head and laying it straight across the tray in segments about 1/2 an inch shorter than the pan is (width, not length) and dropping it off. We typically would do 2 layers of this, and it ends up lasting longer and looking very beautiful to the customers. Typically if I grind, I use this method rather than the rounds. It seems that the meat loses its bloom faster (the fresh red color) when it's in rounds than when it's laid out flat.

Our store does label fat content, and is a serious issue when idiots try to grind. They don't know what pieces make up the Chuck, Round, and Extra Lean pieces, so we need to put the bins in order and label them- or else people will mess it up and sell crap beef for 93%... it's a pain in the ass. Most people wouldn't even be able to pick through scraps and figure it out if they're a counter worker. They're really not very well trained in the knowledge of meat either.

The OCD stuff does get annoying, but it's how they like it and how the customers are used to seeing it; customers react poorly to change typically.

We don't usually put pure fat into the grinds either unless we're making bird balls (fat with a small amount of meat, then rolled in bird seed) during winter months... I've had orders for 60/40 beef though- and in that situation, you'll need to put pure fat into the grinder (unless you've got some sloppy cutting butchers).

>>4189108
Then again, it might not be cooked meat when you get it from Creekstone as a general consumer, but in portions to be cooked... The manager may have explained it to me incorrectly- he's an airhead sometimes

>>4189108
>>4189077

Sorry, I said it wrong in this post. They don't sell cooked meats to the public; they sell steaks in *portions* to be cooked for a small family to the public. They wouldn't sell any full piece items to the public because then they wouldn't be making nearly as much profit.

Please disregard my 'cooked' comment; and my "raw" comment meant "sub primal". I was trying to save space and ended up saying incorrect information. Sorry about that anon.

Ok my question is really simple...

If you were to recommend something to a beginner to butcher or fillet, what would you recommend they do?

What kind of knife would you recommend they have, or do you really need a cleaver?

Long story short my neighbor slaughters pigs and has offered me payment in a pig before, and while I know I am not ready for the pig, I want to be because I love pork.

THANKS!

>>4189144
Yeah, cooked vs raw had me wondering for a moment.

I expected them to sell individual steaks, not sub-primals. But, the only photos on their site are of grilled steaks, nothing raw, which is what they sell. Hard to see the marbling that way.

So, all your grinds are in pre-weighed packages, made by you, that the customers just pick up and go? We don't do any of that. The grinds (and all our meat) are in the case, the clerk has to grab a handful, weigh it, and wrap it in paper each time a customer wants some. We'd prolly sell a fuck-ton more if we had pre-weighed packages, but that's not the way they want it done here.

Biggest issue (other then my sirloin "towers" tilting slightly to the side) is when you grab a handful, and it's dark inside. Have to convince customers that it's freshly ground, and does that after an hour or so.

>>4189168

If I had to tell someone what they should learn to do first to learn about how bone structures, meat, and tissue work together, I would say you should learn to part out a whole frying chicken. You'll see how joints work, how bones tie together, and how to find where the meat comes apart. You'll also learn how to go around bones (if you want) to cut between joints and separate ball-and-socket types of joints (removing legs from the bird). Also, whole frying chickens are cheap as dirt (typically) and make many, many different dinners and meals possible.

If you were going to do this, I would say get a boning or fillet knife. Probably a curved and semi-flexible... also, you could get a cimeter if that's your thing- but I think they're too big. You don't need to crack any bones to take apart a whole fryer, so a larger knife or cleaver would be unnecessary. After that, you can move up and toward different things in the cutting world.

If you're looking for beef... You could get a baron of beef/ponderosa hip if you're able to find one. You would have to separate that into the different rounds though, and that would be a bit more difficult for the first time cutter... Just my .02 on your question.

If I missed something, let me know and I'll get back to you on it when I get up tomorrow.

>>4189197
I'll get you in the next post

>>4189197
Yeah, sorry about the cooked vs raw bit there... I don't know what I was thinking aside from space saving!

They sell individual steaks to the general public, and they sell sub primals to stores if you get them through a wholesaler- which makes it nicer for resale and much better in terms of profit margins. I'm not sure why they don't show their regular steaks and the marbling, but I assure you- it's quite nice even on their lower level steaks.

We also have a full-service reach in counter for the meat workers to sell product from. We have about 50 feet (give or take) of cooled storage with top and bottom shelves to sell products from. We also have about 15 feet of iced storage area for poultry. The fronts of the case are glass so the customers can individually pick their own items. We have most of what we have across also for sale from our full-service reach in case. We sell grinds, pork, beef (Angus in the case rather than Select), ground turkey, pre-made (raw) meals such as stuffed chicken breasts, stuffed pork chops, filled round steaks, and many other items. Then we have the poultry in its own case where we have whole birds and parts. It's actually a really, really nice setup. We have butcher paper to wrap in (when requested) and plastic bags with twisties for typical orders. We also have plastic containers if they get offal or something that is juicy. In addition, if they get something that would fall apart in a bag, we wrap them on trays like the product we'd put across for the self-service section.

The darkness of the beef on the inside of the rounds is what happens when the meat is too tightly packed (not getting oxygen); the "bloom" is lost early. That's why I use the "flat" method that I do. The beef generally takes longer to start losing its bloom and it shows freshness longer. The bloom also disappears when the beef gets older and isn't as fresh cut anymore... the meat industry is really like taking an art class, isn't it?

Any questions today /ck/? I've got a few hours before I need to be anywhere.