/ck/ - Food & Cooking

>>6689600
yo, sup

...whats your point? do you want recipes or a pat on the back?

I like a good vegan thread, but.. you know.. it should have a point

>>6689600
>Vegan thread
>Immediately attacks on people who eat meat
Good job, cunt.

>>6689611
>peanuts
Why

>>6689613
>vegan thread
>immediately attacked by meat-eaters

>>6689611
I always like to sneak shit vegans can't eat into every dish if I'm cooking, especially for a party. Then I laugh quietly to myself as they eat "vegan"

>Just let them have a few threads anon, nothing will change about /ck/.

Fast forward 3 years and we have this bullshit all fucking day long.
There is even a vegan mod.
This place sucks now.

>>6689618
Well fucking duh. Carnivores eat herbivores.

>>6689617
gelatin

>>6689617

>Peanuts
>chips
>sauces and dressing
>soy cheese
>orange juice

you're a genius

>>6689611
I've never understood soy cheese. Everyone, even vegans, KNOWS it doesn't taste like cheese nor does it taste good. If it's a textural thing, just use tofu. At least that won't taste like plasticized ass.

>>6689656

Eww, tofu as cheese sounds terrible. I agree that vegan cheese is terrible. I just don't use cheese most the time. If I make a pizza I use like 1/3 the soy cheese you'd normally see on a pizza.

However, I really, really like the Heidi Ho brand chia nacho cheeze. It makes a great vegan quesadilla:

>cook crumbled tempeh, black beans, onion, garlic in oil (plus whatever you want to add)
>Cover half of a tortilla in sliced avocado
>cover that with a thin layer of the tempeh mix
>cover the other half the tortilla with the cheese sauce
>close and cook however you normally cook a quesadilla

>>6689600

Long time poster first time reader here.
> Been a vegan since about like 2013 or something close to that time period
> Have to admit that i didn't believe it at first but my girlfriend who is a gourmet vegan chef who lives overseas insisted i go vegan
> after i started eating cauliflower pizzas and vegan macaroni and cheese and stuff like vegan turkey and vegan dogs and of course my favorite vegan chili i feel so much better
< honestly feel so amazing
> i don't kill any animals and am 100% vegan
> i live in a large metropolitan city with a lot of good markets so i know that nothing i ever use has been made out of animal products
> i hope one day we can all be 100% vegan

>>6689744
>my girlfriend who is a gourmet vegan chef who lives overseas insisted i go vegan
Butter Bell Anon is that you???

>>6689744
'girlfriend'

>>6689619
You are my friend

>>6689744

enjoy that premature aging

>>6689640
What?
All those things contain animal products.

>>6689744
If you're a true vegan you wouldn't have to resort to fake meat/dairy.

>>6689744
I doubt you're 100% vegan.
There's animal products in almost everything.

>>6689794

How?

Yes, there are some chips that have animal products, but you can get chips that are just potatoes and oil.
Some sauces are dressings are vegan, like italian dressing, oil and vinegar, and some vinegrettes
orange juice = orange juice

>>6689611
>vegans can't eat red foods

>>6689611
How pretentious do you have to be to believe this shit? This has to be a joke? Who the fuck is mentally ill enough to think any of this shit even matters? I can understand allergies, and not eating something that makes you sick, but goddamn, that shit is so absurd, you'd have to be crazy to follow any of the advice.

>>6689794
Orange Juice?

Supposing I squeeze it fresh myself. Where's the animal product?

>eating agriculture veggies and fruits
>not foraging
I hope you know that most of your stuff comes from unsustainable farms that waste too much water.

>>6689819
a dog pissed on the tree.

>>6689744
>i hope one day we can all be 100% vegan

Enjoy the collective laughter of the majority of the world's free people. Enjoy your delusio- I mean fanatsy _

>>6689744
>forcing your veganism onto everyone
Check your privilege. Not everyone can afford to eat vegan dipshit.

>>6689611
>you know all these things that you thought were safe to eat?
>SURPRISE, MOTHAFUCKA!
>btw here's my name on the image if you wanna check out my blog and help me earn some money

>>6689744
I'd sooner eat you and compost your scraps than be forced into a global dietary restriction based on the lowest common denominators on the planet. Nice ego fueled fantasy you got going there, though, m8. There's nothing wrong with eating meat any more than there is anything wrong with eating vegetables.

Plants are alive, too, in case you are so dim. so is Cholera and E.Coli. They are all alive and living creatures. So are the bugs that eat your plants and the microbes that you don't wash off your organic fruits and vegetables? Yeah, they're alive too.

>>6689744
> i don't kill any animals
you'd probably get winded from picking up your spear anyways if you were ever caught out in the wild

but also, please tell me you have no leather so i can call you a liar and a fraud

>>6689816
>orange juice = orange juice
You don't know anything.

http://www.treehugger.com/green-food/9-everyday-products-you-didnt-know-had-animal-ingredients.html

>>6689600
>vegans actually believe that lions would eat vegan food if given the opportunity
kek'd

>>6689744
>Long time poster
>first time reader here
Everyone, I present to you, the epitome of shitposting, someone who doesn't even read what they're replying to.

>>6689847
>Also, watch out for new plastics coming out: Companies like Tyson Foods are experimenting with keratin protein found in chicken feathers to produce plastics, adhesives and non-wooven materials.
>Turns waste into useful shit
>Somehow a bad thing
>B-But mah animal rights
This is why veganism is a cancer. Not vegan food, but veganism. Fuck these people.

>>6689879
Exactly.

Most vegans are silent hypocrites.
They pick and choose where to be vegan, and judge others for not being vegan enough.

>>6689600

Is it just me, or is anyone else disgusted that the photo used to represent "human food" in OP's pic is a photo of a bunch of processed bullshit?

No sir. Human food is pic related.

>>6689885
Holier than thou is the basis of their "culture". No one can defeat that easily, to be honest.

>>6689818
I think there's an element of one-upmanship in this "Level 47 Uber-Hardcore Veganistical Superhero" nonsense.

>"hey, i'm vegetarian now rupert, i just feel bad for the animals, you know?"
>"but you still eat eggs, right percy? hmmm thought so..."
>"you can talk tarquin, i saw you wearing leather at lucretia and jocasta's midsummer drum circle."
>"that was FAUX leather oscar, FAUX leather, and anyway, you're drinking orange juice right now! don't you know 35% of orange juice manufacturers add sugar that was processed using BONE CHAR?!"
>"wh-what?" [gags dramatically]

I don't have a problem with vegans but when I see shit like this >>6689611 I have to wonder how many are doing it for the right reasons.

>>6689908
>I think there's an element of one-upmanship in this "Level 47 Uber-Hardcore Veganistical Superhero" nonsense.

Yeah, you're right. and not just that. There's a whole lot of immaturity and plain ignorance, too.

>>6689908
Orange juice also sometimes has FISH in it (Omega3 enhanced)

I've yet to hear a coherent argument on the morality of eating the microbes on food. chlorinated water must be a grave sin for all the living creatures killed right? Or all the living fruit trees that we ENSLAVE into servitude and pluck their children from their still living connection to the tree? Severed unfeelingly with a metal blade and harvested by the thousands! Atrocious right? I mean, at what point do you just say "This shit is utter nonesnse?" I am all for the ethical treatment of animals, but we can have sustainable and animal friendly farms with humane and quick deaths. Everything that lives dies. That includes your favorite yogurt making bacteria or your organic lettuce or the bugs living on it.

I mean, come on, it's the cycle of life. It's like evolution has taken a step backwards for some people, and it becomes a mindless one-upsman challenge.

>>6689879
I'm a vegetarian and I draw the line at putting flesh, bones or gelatin in my mouth. Anything beyond that I don't care. The way I see it they're by-products of the meat industry and it's better that they're used up than discarded. The aim is to reduce the demand for meat or at least not contribute to it rising. I'm okay with leather too.

Is it hypocritical and ignorant? Probably. But it's better than doing nothing. I doubt I can ever have an existance that's not being paid for by the blood and sweat of other animals and humans. Doesn't mean that I don't try at all but it also doesn't mean I put my life on hold. If a shirt is made in humane conditions in Bangladesh and is only a few dollars more than one made by children in a pit I'll buy the former. If it's between the latter and one made in the US which costs 3 times more for the same quality I'll get the sweatshop one.

>>6689942
You're creating a false equivalence here and you know it. Single-celled organisms are not the same as mammals, fish and birds. If we take your thinking to it's conclusion eating dogs and cats would be okay. But for most it isn't. We all draw a line, some draw it at humans, some at dogs, some at animals, some even include humans in the list of things they can eat.

Evolution hasn't taken a step back. One of the fruits of evolution is self-consciousness. That we are not driven by our instincts alone is due to evolution. Part of that awareness is the pain we directly cause animals by demanding as much meat as we do. It is simply not possible to keep up with the demand we have and be humane in our treatment of what we consider food. Part of that awareness is realizing that although we might have a capacity to eat a lot of meat our bodies will suffer in the long run if we do. Part of that awareness is realizing that if there is a way for us to thrive without killing other animals or at least without killing as many as we are.

>>6690002
> If we take your thinking to it's conclusion eating dogs and cats would be okay.
Not him, but it IS okay though. It's just that who would eat their pet? If someone had a chicken as a pet, they wouldn't eat that chicken either.
> We all draw a line, some draw it at humans, some at dogs, some at animals, some even include humans in the list of things they can eat.
It is natural to draw it at humans, since murder is a human concept. Once we start expanding it, you can expand the line infinitely. You shouldn't eat plants either, they are also alive.

>>6690002
the only reason eating meat would not be sustainable is because of an overpopulation of humans. The problem isn't eating meat, it's human overpopulation.

Why should I restrict my diet because of the lack of control of others? I don't care if you want to eat vegan, but to profess it as some superior position, when your validation is to help sustain a symptom of a larger problem seems like a shallow rationalization.

Eating meat doesn't have to cause suffering. I grow my own fish. I know they live. I know they have lives and brains and probably even simple feelings. I know they feel pain because it's an observable fact of life that animals feel pain. But I pull them out and chop their heads off, how does that inflict suffering when the thing is dead before it knows it?

The same could be said of any number of other sustainable and humane methods of meat production. In reality, your fight isn't with meat eaters, it's with a for-profit mentality that is bigger than any individual or organization. it's the nature of the leaders of man, but since you're powerless against that you focus on eating vegan right? Well, I realize the problem is bigger and is not even about meat. It's about human population density and the advent of huge industrial farms based on the bottom line.

I think your heart is in the right place, but you're looking at answers in the wrong places.

>>6690034
> But I pull them out and chop their heads off, how does that inflict suffering when the thing is dead before it knows it?
Well, it inflicts as much suffering as killing a plant does, vegans should probably stop eating plants and just eat salt and water, after they make sure that it is free of any microbes, of course.

>>6689819
Bee hives. They need be hives for any sort of commercial quantities and bees are not vegan. Like honey.

While I'm not Vegan, I am interested in eating less meat for health reasons. What are some ideal resources for Vegan food that doesn't try to be anything else? I'm super turned onto grilled vegetables, I'm planning on making a vegetable Satay later on today, I'm gathering spices to make some vegan curry, but I'm wondering what else makes for good eating. I do like Indian food, but I'd rather not shit out half my body weight after three or four days of eating nothing but spciy-ass curry.

>>6690127
Vegan food isn't any healthier than normal food, vegetarian food is.

>>6690251
lol

>>6690127
Plenty of indian dishes, faggot

>>6689908
It happens a little, but not much. It's more common for certain types of obnoxious non-vegans to dig up these little facts so they can triumphantly announce when they spot vegans unwittingly transgressing in small ways.

>>6690276
Frequently vegetarian, rarely vegan.

vegan checking in

>>6689656
cashew cheese is actually really good man

>vegans that are extreme and wont use animal products or own fur/leather
>be vegan me
>own a closet full of fur/reptile skin
>only doing it to stay dead looking and thin
kek

>>6690331
Veganism isn't /fa/
You can't drink coffee if you're vegan

>>6690539
That's not true though

>>6690549
Should've rephrased.
Most coffee isn't ethically sourced as most coffee growers live in poverty and their plantations mean that more of the rainforest is cut down.
Not that vegans care about humans, but still.

>>6689827
>hurr durr vegetables are expensive
You're an idiot. I spend far less on food now that I'm vegan

>>6689942
>I've yet to hear a coherent argument
I don't understand why so many meat addicts think this is a legitimately good argument. You realize it just makes you look stupid, right? I'll explain it for you anyways:
Ethics are derived from empathy. I feel empathy for individuals who can suffer. I personally believe the minimum requirements for suffering include a neural network and a pleasure reward system. Trees and bacteria do not have those minimum components which I believe are necessary to suffer.

>but we can have sustainable and animal friendly farms with humane and quick deaths
You made a pretty big mistake by bringing sustainability into the argument. Factory farms are literally the most sustainable way to raise animals for food. If you were to raise the same number of animals on a ton of small farms where they rape and kill their animals in the least inhumane way, it would use far more land and other resources. There is no sustainable way to raise animals for food, because you could feed more people if you used the same amount of land for crops. Instead, you seem to think it's sustainable to raise crops to feed to livestock to feed to humans.
Fucking meat addict logic.

>>6690562
The majority of deforestation is due to animal agriculture. All crops raised in large enough quantities will result in some deforestation. Veganism is about harm reduction. Total elimination isn't possible.

Also, I don't drink coffee because it's disgusting and provides me with no benefit. Why would I want an extra addiction for no reason?

So this thread is allowed to stay while the other one is deleted?
Thanks based vegan mod!

>>6692050
We don't need two threads about veganism m8.

If you wanna bash vegans then this is the thread. Threads about /ck/'s mods belong on >>>/qa/

>>6689860
I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought that.

Veganism is a cult
I feel that is the most accurate description of them because in order for the vegan ideal to succeed every single person must join them and become vegan.
That is why these threads aren't about recipes and making food. The only a person wants once they become vegan is to convert every non-vegan.
Veganism isn't just a dietary choice.

>>6692159
>equates cultism with preaching against the unnecessary rape and slaughter of innocent beings capable of suffering
You understand that when you post stupid shit like this it hurts your own cause, right?

>>6692233
>capable of suffering

The brains of animals are too underdeveloped to experience qualia. lrn2neuroscience

>>6692236
I have been studying neuroscience, and one of the things I have learned is that the ability to experience pain and suffering is fundamental to survival for most animals. It's called evolution. Without an aversion to pain and suffering it would be much more difficult to survive many generations. Pretty much anything with a neural network could potentially suffer.

>>6692245
Not him but, does that mean it's okay to eat meat if I sedate the animals before killing them?

>>6692247
Sure, as long as I am allowed to do the same thing to you. Is it okay to impregnate animals against their will just so we can harvest their milk and children? I mean, we're going to sedate them when we kill them (at a fraction of their natural lifespan), so keeping them prisoner and raping them repeatedly is okay now, right?

>>6692252
>Implying I said anything along those lines.
No need to go overboard buddy.

>>6692259
In order for you to have the privilege of killing the animal, first another animal has to give birth to that animal. In case you haven't noticed, they don't wait for this to happen in the wild. They do what they have to do to get more product quickly. Even if they did wait for animals to breed in the wild, there's still the issue of abduction which would be a pretty traumatic experience.
It's mind boggling to me that you didn't understand that rape and enslavement is fundamental part of animal agriculture.

>>6689752
AAH-AH ANO HI NO YUME

>>6691967
Plants and microbes do have analogs of nervous systems and reward systems baka, that's how plants turn toward sunlight and bacteria know what nutrients to congregate too. What if I could provide you with retarded meat? Some animal that is too warped mentally would qualify for your vegan diet since it can't feel joy or sorrow like you or I.
Also factory farming isn't sustainable since it reduces genetic diversity and requires large external inputs in the form of manufactured foods and medicines. By your reasoning all food outside of algae and algae raised mealworms are immoral because they use more space than the absolute minimum. You clearly don't know what sustainable means and would rather bark from the porch like a dog at all those meat eaters.
Go practice your moral absolutism incorrectly somewhere else

>>6692278
>literally implying that mentally retarded people can't experience emotion
What the fuck is wrong with you?

>>6692245
You obviously didn't understand it. Aversion to pain is a simple conditioned response transforming sensory stimuli into behavioral output and does not require qualia or consciousness.You need a highly developed prefrontal cortex unique to humans for subjective experience to happen. Animals and simple cultured BNNs do not have enough integrated information to be anything more than p-zombies.

>>6692286
>literally implying
I am absolutely sort of maybe sure that you're an idiot

>>6692278
Sponges and corals are just those animals, are they considered vegan? Also what is the stance on eating red algae?

>>6692278
plants and microbes do not have any equivalent to a neural network. Just because they can react to external stimuli does not mean they can process that data in a way that can be considered suffering. To do so requires a neural network, which is not the same thing as a nervous system like you implied by using that as a counter argument. A nervous system is simply a means of input for a neural network. However, without the neural network to process that data, it may as well be a machine.

>>6689744

why didn't you give it a 110% at vegan?

>>6692050

make me a vegan sandwich

>>6692295
0/10

>>6692278
>plants have pleasure reward systems
No they don't. The reason some plants can turn towards sunlight and the reason bacteria know what nutrients to congregate to is because they developed those traits psuedo-randomly over generations of evolution. Those traits enabled them to survive at high enough rates to continue reproducing. If a cell goes through it's binary fission stage and produces a mutated cell, it is possible that it won't have the programming needed to be able to obtain or process nutrients sufficiently to meet it's needs. If this happens, it will almost certainly die off and fail to reproduce with it's bad programming (Not completely like traditional computer programming, but similar, using amino acids for the code)

>>6692050
I was hoping someone would talk about this, that was a good thread, more positive than this one. I managed to save it to the last reply if someone is interested.

>>6692336
forgot to say it was indeed more a /pol/ discussion than a food one so I can understand why it was deleted but please be coherent and erase this one too then.

>>6692295
10/10

>>6690321
I agree. I wish they would just call it cashew spread though. More people would probably buy it then.

>>6692233
You are painfully stupid, I'm embarrassed by proxy.

>>6692415
So you have no counterargument then. That's what I thought. Just like most people would like to force people to stop raping, imprisoning, enslaving, and killing other humans, vegans would like to force people to stop doing those same things to nonhuman animals. It's a pretty easy concept to grasp intellectually, although you may lack the empathy needed to care in the first place.

>>6691973
>Why would I want an extra addiction for no reason?
Leave it to a vegan to not understand the concept of pleasure.

obligatory response to shitposting OP

>>6689620
>There is even a vegan mod.

please tell me you are fuckign kidding

>>6692425
No, your counter is hyperbolic and based on emotion. There is no reason for a sensible person to engage in a discussion with such a person as you.
Again, I'll state, veganism is a cult because in order for your ideal to succeed every person must join you. That is very cult-like.
Not a thing you stated now or previously refutes my argument. Retarded nigger

>>6692431
coffee does not give me an amount of pleasure which is equal to or greater than the amount of displeasure from the taste and physiological effects. There are a number of cheaper and healthier ways to obtain pleasure.

>>6692444
Yeah, decaffeinated coffee

>>6692435
Dude look around, yesterday there was a pro vegan thread (not food related) and an anti vegan thread (also not food related.
Today there is only the pro vegan thread.

I dont know what else you need to see.

>>6689600
No Vegan but at reggae festivals I always eat the Ital food because it just tastes better then all the other crap they sell. Does that count as well?

>>6692438
All ethics are based on emotion. And again, allow me to explain why your comparison between veganism and cults is insane. By your logic, people who wanted to abolish human slavery were part of a cult, because in order for them to succeed, everyone must give up their "rights" to own slaves. Also, people who are against slavery are only against it for emotional reasons. That does not invalidate the cause at all. Emotions are part of the human experience. Your attempts to discredit them as a valid basis for ethics is wrong. Empathy is where true ethics come from.

>>6692452
Yes, just as I'm sure they would delete an anti-meat thread. There is nothing wrong with having a thread to discuss cooking plants. If the meat eaters would stop "trolling" every vegan thread, they could actually be about cooking.

>>6689744
>cauliflower pizzas

you don't have to be gluten-free to be vegan.

>>6692477
>There is nothing wrong with having a thread to discuss cooking plants.


NO one is discussing cooking here anon.
That is clearly not the focus of this thread.
One sided moderation will kill this board.

>>6689817
he means red dye which is made from bug shells.

>>6692521
>That is clearly not the focus of this thread.
If you read the second half of my post you would understand that the reason this thread isn't about cooking is because meat eaters will not allow that. Instead they insist on creating persistent arguments in every single vegan thread which prevents us from having meaningful conversation about cooking. I personally have posted quite a few recipes in vegan threads on /ck/. Perhaps not in this specific thread, but that's because I know most people who care about vegan cooking discussion have left by now due to all the constant trolling by meat eaters. However, it's unfair to say
>now that we trolled this thread into oblivion the mods should delete it
It's literally impossible to have a vegan thread on this board because the meat eaters are too insecure with their diets to let us discuss cooking plants without constant emotional outbursts and dumb arguments.

>>6689600
Anything except zebra though I guess.

The zebra doesn't give a shit who's eating it, so if it's okay for lions why can't it be part of the ANYTHING that humans can eat?

I really hate it when people say that vegans /can't/ eat certain foods. They can. They're just so autistic they refuse to based on arbitrary rules that make no sense.

>>6692537
>It's literally impossible to have a vegan thread on this board

If only this were true anon.
/ck/ is not supposed to be vegan friendly .
cant we have one space on the internet where PC/VEGAN/SJW shit is not encouraged?

>>6692537
>meat eaters are too insecure with their diets to let us discuss cooking plants without constant emotional outbursts and dumb arguments.


This must be the main reason. If they're convinced about the environmental and health benefits of eating meat and dairies, either explain them or let vegan die. The despise and everything only reveal their insecurity.

>>6692471
And here is where you reveal your lunacy. You are equating human life with animal life. Absurd, absolutely absurd.

>>6692477
>I'm sure they would delete an anti-meat thread.


A vegan thread IS an anti meat thread you idiot.

>>6692586
So you think it's okay to discriminate against a group of individuals because of some genetic differences? I like how you just drew an arbitrary moral line between racism and speciesism without any logically consistent explanation, but somehow I'm the absurd one. If you think there is some fundamental difference between humans and non-humans that makes non-humans deserving of suffering, it is up to you to explain that. Otherwise you just seem irrational/logically insonsistent

>>6692608
Yeah you are a troll, you had me for a while though. 8/10

>>6692593
That is not true. There are plenty of people who follow a vegan diet for health reasons who have no ethical problems regarding meat consumption or anti-meat message. Why shouldn't they be allowed to have a pro plant-based cooking thread?

>>6692610
So you are unable to explain the very thing you are arguing? Leave it to meat eaters to not even understand their own beliefs. If you can't explain why you believe something then you should just shut the fuck up until you figure out how.

>>6692617
Try not to be so obvious next time.

>>6692620
>hurr, I can't explain my beliefs without introducing logical inconsistencies so I'm going to just accuse the other person of trolling

>>6692627
Not the same anon but if you believe animals should have rights then you are a human hater and your ideas have no place on a human food board.
PLs go.

>>6692634
Hating humans is not a logical extension of wanting humans to stop abusing animals. I hate the humans who exhibit abusive, unintelligent, and apathetic behavior. However, that does not represent everyone.

>>6692641
giving rights to animals devalues humans.

>>6692641
I'm about to kill a chicken, butcher it, and feed it to my family.
Does that upset you?

>>6692645
If by that you mean it removes your "right" to rape, torture, and kill unnecessarily then sure. You got me. There are many things that we don't allow in a civilized society. Just because you don't think the above mentioned things should be included doesn't mean I have to be quiet about my difference of opinion.

>>6692655
Of course it does. The same amount of resources could have been used to produce a larger amount of food with less suffering involved.

>>6692661
Do you want to know a dirty little secret about vegetable farms? They have to kill every animal that comes onto the land, even after the initial killing of everything that lived on the land prior to it being a farm. Everything is the product of animal suffering, deal with it you weak pansy.

>>6692571
You misplaced empathy for animals makes you weak.
You wish to use public opinion and the government to make me weak as well.
This make you a really pathetic form of evil.

>>6692665
Most of the vegetables I consume are grown indoors where no animals even have access. Furthermore, they are grown by volunteers, most of whom would never kill an animal unnecessarily.

>>6692661

Your misplaced empathy for animals makes you weak.
You wish to use public opinion and the government to make me weak as well.
This make you a really pathetic form of evil.

>>6692665
Most crops are grown to feed animals though. Because of this, people who consume animals require more plants per person. There is still objectively more suffering taking place from eating animals.

>>6692685
>Slavery abolitionists were weak
>Slavery abolitionists wanted to use public opinion and the government to make others weak as well
>This makes slavery abolitionists a really pathetic form of evil

I love how I'm the evil one for teaching people that it's wrong to rape and kill unnecessarily

>>6692694
Equating human slavery to animal cruelty is pure evil anon.
You are a bad person.

>>6691973
>coffee
>no health benefits

uwot

>>6692698
Explain why it's wrong to compare human slavery to animal slavery? Why is it okay to arbitrarily draw a moral line between racism and speciesism?

Basically, see >>6692608
If you can't explain the fundamental difference that you apparently perceive, than you have no business arguing this to begin with. Also, consider the following questions:
Is it okay to rape and kill mentally disabled humans?
If we made contact with alien lifeforms, would it be okay to rape and kill them indiscriminately simply for the crime of not being human?

So explain why is it morally acceptable for you to be a speciesist and why should I have to respect that?

>>6692712
>implying your moral lines are not just as arbitrary.

>>6692712
>speciesism
Just because you have been brainwashed by P3TA to think this is a bad thing does not make it so anon.

>>6692712
Here's the thing though, modern domestic animals wouldn't exist without humans. They are our invention, not nature's. We have developed them as effective conveyors of nutrition and they fulfill that role well. They serve no other purpose, should we let them die off on their own in the natural world? That seems more cruel than living in a pasture eating grass for most of your life, then getting fattened up and killed. What do you think we should do with domestic animals if we're not going to eat them?

>>6692716
I can actually explain the reasons why I believe what I do. You cannot.

>>6692720
>racism
Just because you have been brainwashed by the MLK to think this is a bad thing does not make it so anon. (also PETA can go suck a dick. It's all about Mercy for Animals)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVLQhysuuAo

>>6692760
>should we let them die off on their own in the natural world?
That's not what would happen. We would stop breeding them and they would cease to exist. Instead they end up in "shelters" that slaughter them because humans are too selfish to give up the cycle of rape and objectification that is the animal agriculture industry. Yes, I believe people should stop breeding animals and abducting their children for selfish reasons. I don't care if they go extinct, many of the breeds of dogs shouldn't exist to begin with and I feel bad for their miserable existences.
>That seems more cruel than living in a pasture eating grass for most of your life, then getting fattened up and killed
Except this isn't how farmed animals grow up. That is the fantasy fairy tale they want you to believe. In reality, there is not enough land on the planet to raise the amount of livestock we do in that fashion. You have to go way out of your way to find those farms and then you end up paying more for it. It also doesn't justify rape or killing.

>>6692776
>I can actually explain the reasons why I believe what I do. You cannot


Very easy statement to make anon.
What you can do in reality is spout propaganda you learned third hand from P3TA.

>>6689908
>the right reasons

Anon

>>6692795
The concept of speciesism does not come from peta. It's a pretty intuitive concept for anyone who has empathy and actually prefers logical consistency in their values. Your continued presence in this thread is evidence of your cognitive dissonance. I think you know deep down that you're wrong, but you feel so insecure about your values, that seeing a vegan thread made you feel defensive, like you have to justify your moral beliefs. I would much rather be sharing vegan recipes right now

>>6692608
holy autismo, batman.

>>6692841
So no real counterargument then. It's the same every time. How do you ever expect to persuade vegans to leave you alone about your "right" to rape and kill if you can't even explain something as basic/fundamental as that.

>>6692846
Want to know the difference?
Animals aren't protected by the same laws that people are, therefore they are my food, and there is no social taboo for eating them.
I do prefer it when animals are killed painlessly, but only because it's better for the meat. I don't give a fuck about a species that isn't even capable of defending itself.
If it wanted to survive so much, it shouldn't of let itself get on my plate.
Is that a better argument for you?

>>6692856
>Animals aren't protected by the same laws that people are, therefore they are my food, and there is no social taboo for eating them.
No. Because you still haven't explained what makes that different from (for example) slavery 200 years ago. Would you also make the argument that it was justified to be a slave owner back then simply because it was socially acceptable and legal?

>I don't give a fuck about a species that isn't even capable of defending itself.
You are still arbitrarily drawing the line at species though. Why is it acceptable to discriminate on the basis of species? Would you discriminate against mentally challenged humans who are not capable of defending themselves? Do you really think it's okay to be abusive to anything which is in a lesser position of power compared to you?

>If it wanted to survive so much, it shouldn't of let itself get on my plate
I'm pretty sure even most meat eaters would be upset by statements like this. You could use this same argument to justify murdering someone and cannibalizing their body

>Is that a better argument for you?
Not really.

>>6692881
You are still at it I see. I just butchered that chicken, cooking parts of it now. It smells amazing btw

>>6692890
Good for you. I already visited a farmers market and had 2 meals while you were doing that. Homemade channa masala and a green smoothie. Not to mention blueberries and blackberries by themselves. Very delicious and statistically unlikely to give me heart disease, diabetes, or cancer.

>>6692909
Kek, you are really trying hard.
You know trolling is banned outside of /b/ right?

>>6692917
You don't believe me? I was cooking channa masala when I first entered the thread. I ate that. Then I walked 2 blocks to the farmers market, picked up some greens and berries, walked 2 blocks back home and made a smoothie. Is that really hard to believe?

if trolling is banned outside of /b/, then why are you even posting in a vegan thread?

>>6689670

>I agree that vegan cheese is terrible

I've never had soy cheese, but the other day I tried a bunch of these products and they were actually really good. Made of almond milk using the same process as normal cheesemaking. No weird ingredients either.

Way too expensive to actually buy regularly, but it was pretty cool to see how well you could replicate cheesemaking with nuts. Maybe in the future it'll be more affordable for everyday eating.

>>6692947
you also have to take into account that the types of cheese which are comparable to nut cheeses are usually about as expensive. You should see if vtopian has their cashew-macadamia cheese stocked in a location near you. As expensive as it is, I think it's worth every penny. I would have even loved it when I ate meat.

>>6692881
>No. Because you still haven't explained what makes that different from (for example) slavery 200 years ago. Would you also make the argument that it was justified to be a slave owner back then simply because it was socially acceptable and legal?
Yes.
>You are still arbitrarily drawing the line at species though. Why is it acceptable to discriminate on the basis of species? Would you discriminate against mentally challenged humans who are not capable of defending themselves? Do you really think it's okay to be abusive to anything which is in a lesser position of power compared to you?
I'm not drawing the line, society is. And yes, I do.
>I'm pretty sure even most meat eaters would be upset by statements like this. You could use this same argument to justify murdering someone and cannibalizing their body
Except I'm not, I'm using it to justify something that's already socially acceptable, and legal. Murder isn't. Cannibalism isn't. You can't just take the things I say out of the context of the conversation and go "oooh hooo, look how clever I am." that's not how debating works.
>Not really.
Sucks to be you.
>>6692890
funny, I just finished working on some chicken too.

Former vegan here.

No h8, just quit because after 11 months of losing muscle I got very very sick. I can't afford to get all the protein powder stuff and also pay my bills so I had to go back to meat. Feels bad, but I gotta live.

>>6692936
Oh man, this meal is amazing. Super delicious. I'm sure whatever garbage you ate was fine, too.

>>6692776
you use anthropomorphisms to equate animals to humans.
there is no difference between the amount of killing a vegetarian does and an omnivore.

go jerk off to bambi faggot.

>>6692936
LOL TROLLED

DYE4CHAN

>>6692996
I'm this guy >>6692992
still gunna offer you advice
You don't need protein supplements, just lots of beans and lentils, they're very rich in protein.
Just don't become one of those self righteous vegans like this fag >>6692881 who thinks they're better than everyone else because hurdur muh overactive empathy.
also google other vegan protein sources.
Living vegan is incredibly easy with just a bit of research, good luck.

>>6693010
thanks

>>6692961

I'll look out for it, but all I saw last time I was shopping was the Kite Hill almond milk cheeses and this Treeline brand nut cheese that look a bit more firm than the Kite Hill cheeses.

Unless some of the nut cheeses get significantly less expensive (the kite hill ricotta was like 8 bucks for a 4 ounce package), I'll probably just treat them more like a curiosity, trying out new ones as I see them hit the shelves just to see how they taste. So far it's pretty impressive what they've been able to do, especially considering they aren't adding a bunch of weird shit to it; just nuts, cultures, and salt. If you fed me a piece of that White Alder almond milk cheese and told me it was dairy cheese, I'd have believed it

I realize it's largely up to individual preference, but what is the logic surrounding bee pollinated crops for most vegans? Avoid because muh animoo slavery, it's fine cuz not muh animoo product? What about the effect of agriculture at large on insect populations, tilling, artificial environment modification, the inevitable contaminants of insect and rodent parts in food products? The last one really gets me because I know a lot of vegans go so far as to avoid trace additives/enhancers which are sourced via insects parts and fish bladders and whatnot.

>>6693030
Don't ask vegans to justify the foods that they do eat, they'll all too often be unable to do so due to inconsistent logic driven by having way too much empathy, and somehow thinking that it's a good thing, and not a mental disorder.

>>6692992
>I'm not drawing the line, society is. And yes, I do.
So you're advocating herd mentality. And by the way it sounds, you would be okay with slavery of other human beings as long as it was legal.
>You can't just take the things I say out of the context
That's not what I was doing. I was taking statements you made, and extrapolating out loud in an attempt to show you how warped your values are.
>hurr... might is right. society knows best

I actually feel sorry for you. You're a victim too...

>>6693001
>anthropomorphism
So are you trying to say that the ability to feel pain and suffer is an inherently human trait that other species cannot experience? That would be a very ignorant and arrogant way to approach this conversation. Perhaps you just don't know what anthropomorphism is. It's when we try to apply uniquely human traits to non human animals. Since pain and suffering are not unique to humans, it is not anthropomorphism. Non human animals also have a nervous system hooked up to a neural network. They also have brain chemistry which allows for emotion and discomfort. For you to try to claim that these characteristics are unique to human is incorrect.

>>6693022
Treeline isn't bad, but I still don't think they compare to vtopian

>>6693030
>but what is the logic surrounding bee pollinated crops for most vegans?
Not all vegans think alike. Different vegans have different views on this subject and different reasons for those different views. Personally I avoid bee pollinated crops as much as possible. Most people are too uneducated about where their food comes from to even realize whether or not their food is pollinated by bees.
>What about the effect of agriculture at large
This is a pretty easy one. We need crops either way. More crops are needed for livestock than humans. If you go vegan you are consuming less plants also. I know that sounds counter-intuitive, but livestock eat a lot of plants. Animal agriculture has a larger impact all things considered

>>6693030

>but what is the logic surrounding bee pollinated crops for most vegans?

Isn't that just what bees naturally do?

>What about the effect of agriculture at large on insect populations, tilling, artificial environment modification

The mantra of most vegans I've seen is "cause the least amount of harm possible." Sometimes in these threads you have people questioning veganism by going into absurd territory like "well every time you breathe you're killing bacteria, so why not just slit cows' throats too while you're at it?" Surely you can see why this isn't a strong way to argue

>>6693054
>Isn't that just what bees naturally do?
He's likely referring to instances where they farm and import bees from far away to pollinate crops. Almond crops in California are a pretty good example.

>>6693054
>cause the least amount of harm possible.

Bullshit. Otherwise vegans would have no problem at all with eating honey (bees produce it naturally; you don't "force" them!) or eggs from hens they keep themselves (same deal). Or even goats milk from an animal they looked after themselves.

Veganism is vegetarianism taken to an illogical extreme.

>>6693048
>So you're advocating herd mentality.
As far as morality is concerned, yes. If you don't like something about societies collective morals, do something to change them. That's how the world works.
>That's not what I was doing.
Yes it is, you should know based on previous statements that I've made that I wouldn't be okay with murder, or cannibalism, because it's both taboo, and illegal. They aren't okay.
If society made eating meat illegal, and it became socially taboo, then guess what? I wouldn't eat meat.
Thankfully I don't need to worry about that happening.
>I actually feel sorry for you. You're a victim too...
Is it odd that I feel the same way about you?

>>6693068
>Or even goats milk from an animal they looked after themselves.
Before the goat produces milk you have to impregnate it. I don't really think rape is ethical.

>>6693048
>vegans consume less plants
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNgA06xE_Ng

>>6693054
"Isn't that just what bees naturally do?"

To a certain extent, and the same logic could be applied to most farming, including all animals. The sticky part is that bees are kept specifically for that purpose. Many plant products are reliant on commercial bee keeping.

"Surely you can see why this isn't a strong way to argue"

I'm not trying to argue, I'm just interested in the thought process. OP image brought it to mind. It seems like a lot of the vegan posts on this board are obnoxious in a muh superior reasoning sort of way, and that makes me curious about these more gray area issues.

>>6693063

I'm not that familiar with this issue. Are bees harmed by pollinating crops?

>>6693068

>Otherwise vegans would have no problem at all with eating honey

Some do, some don't.

>or eggs from hens they keep themselves (same deal). Or even goats milk from an animal they looked after themselves.

Some do keep pet hens that give them free eggs, making them technically just vegetarian, but since most people don't have pet hens they would have to purchase their eggs, and in doing so would support an industry they don't agree with. Goats as far as I know also don't produce milk unless they're pregnant, in which case the milk is produced for the goat's offspring to drink. Regardless, same deal, most people don't keep pet goats so to get goat milk they would need to buy it, and thus support an industry they don't agree with.

If you agree with vegetarianism that has an anti-industry stance, why would veganism be an illogical extreme for people who don't want a pet chicken or a pregnant goat? Wouldn't it be more extreme and illogical to keep a constantly pregnant, overly milk producing goat around just to have something to drink?

>>6693073
>As far as morality is concerned, yes
Great. So you literally think that whatever society has agreed on at this point in time is ethical. Clearly I don't need to win you over, I just need to win over the people around you.
>If you don't like something about societies collective morals, do something to change them. That's how the world works.
I am trying, but meat eaters won't even let me discuss veganism without letting their insecurities take over to the point where they say and do completely illogical things they would normally never say or do, just for the sake of making a point. Or simply refusing to be educated, because they are afraid they might feel obligated to change their mind if they learned more about where their food comes from.

>>6693086
Most people don't eat so much lettuce that their stomach bulges out to an extreme like that. In either case, she still consumes less produce than the animals you eat combined with the inevitable produce that you also eat directly.

>>6693094
>I'm not that familiar with this issue. Are bees harmed by pollinating crops?
I would say that any species is going to be harmed when you are farming them and shipping them across the country in tiny containers against their will.

>>6693084
>rape

Goats will do what comes naturally, and don't project yourself onto a fucking goat: the female goat isn't letting the male goat anywhere near her if she doesn't want to.

You're a perfect example of the illogical extremist bullshit.

>>6693102
Bullshit. She eats 10lbs of lettuce PER DAY. I eat salads or pasta twice a day with meat maybe once a week. How much do you think the average person consumes?

>>6693087
>bees are kept

Poor bees, penned in and never allowed to roam fr...wait, that's not true at all?

It's like you literally have no idea how beekeeping works: you can't force bees to stay somewhere. You give them a decent home and hope they like it.

>>6693094
>If you agree with vegetarianism that has an anti-industry stance, why would veganism be an illogical extreme for people who don't want a pet chicken or a pregnant goat?

Because the stance isn't "I'll eat an egg if it comes from your own hen in the garden there" it's "I will not eat any animal product under any circumstance" and you damn well know it.

>>6693094
"Are bees harmed by pollinating crops?"

That depends on your definition of harmed, I think. I would say no, in respect to pollinating crops alone, but in the practice of commercial bee keeping, most certainly. There are the same issues in animal welfare in beekeeping as there are in all animal farming practices. A lot of bees die in the service of the industry for reasons that would not occur naturally, and arguments can be made as to the quality of life for the bees that are kept, particularly with respect to hive transport and cultivation.

>>6693109
>I would say

You would indeed because you have no idea what you're talking about.

Any recovering vegans here? What meds do they have you on? I'm on 3mg risperdol

>>6693087

>To a certain extent, and the same logic could be applied to most farming, including all animals

How do you mean?

>The sticky part is that bees are kept specifically for that purpose

I think this issue is a bit too out there for me. I just don't see how it's a controversy. Are they killing the bees too? Are they patrolling the fields whipping bees and telling them to pollinate the flowers? If you have bees in one place and all they do is create a hive and pollinate flowers, and then you take them and put them somewhere else where they have a hive and pollinate flowers, what's the bad thing that's happening? Are they homesick? Do they really prefer wild flowers? Not trying to be a dick, but I'm not seeing the issue. If anything, isn't it beneficial to give them a constant supply of flowers?

>>6693130

Got any links I can read up on?

>>6692909
Salmonella...likely and more of an urgent concern.

How are the Mexicans who picked those veggies being treated by the way?

>>6689604
let's turn this to a recipe thread. shoot.

Also, vegan/vegetarian recipes have higher sodium content...let's change that a bit.

Finally, can I bake felafels instead of frying? I can look it up later, but thought I'd ask /ck/ for input first.

>>6693141

>tfw off cholesterol medication since eating vegan

>>6693114
So now you're going to try to raise not 1 but 2 horned animals? That just isn't something I would ever want to deal with. Plus then what do I do with their children? Who the hell wants to raise a whole family of goats? That's not sustainable and I would actually really hate to live anywhere where that was standard. Then there's the issue of detainment against their will. They didn't consent to being locked up. Confined to a fenced in area for most of thier life. I don't think animals should be treated as property or exploited in any way.

>How much do you think the average person consumes?
I think you missed the point about how the livestock you eat consume ridiculous amounts of produce.

>>6693146
>How are the Mexicans who picked those veggies being treated by the way?

They don't count, they're not widdle fluffy animals with cute faces.

>>6693146
>How are the Mexicans who picked those veggies being treated by the way?
I'm buying locally grown produce grown by volunteers without the use of any pesticides. This is not the same as your typical supermarket produce.

>>6693161

>Who the hell wants to raise a whole family of goats?

But you need the GOAT MILK! Don't be so illogical and extreme! You can't live without GOAT MILK!

>>6693102
>So you literally think that whatever society has agreed on at this point in time is ethical.
I'm pretty sure that's what ethical means, yeah.
>Clearly I don't need to win you over, I just need to win over the people around you.
Yeah, and we both know that isn't going to happen.
>I am trying, but [it's a lost cause]
Yeah, I know. People like meat too much.
My honest recommendation is to give up on creating vegans, because if someone feels like you're attacking their lifestyle, they won't be receptive, instead try to encourage them to look for cruelty-free alternatives, cite better quality food for example. Once they start learning about all of the stuff the meat industry does, if they're the type of person that would be willing to become vegan, they probably will (with or without a little pestering).
This approach benefits both meat eaters, and you crazy vegans. Animals get treated better (which I'm sure you'd appreciate), resulting in better quality meat, and people get educated (because you know, they won't get all defensive if you just approach it more tactfully) resulting in more vegans.

>>6693159
It is funny because my cholesterol levels have improved since I was a vegan, and risperdol should raise it!

>>6693161
>So now you're going to try to raise not 1 but 2 horned animals?

Why not? Then the off-spring can go off and live a happy life somewhere else.

>detainment against their will. They didn't consent to being locked up.
>I don't think animals should be treated as property or exploited in any way.

Ah, that's it really isn't it? All that fluff about "cause the least amount of harm possible" is just bullshit; it's really because you're an emotional thinker who projects human characteristics onto animals.

You think your goat would be happier roaming wild, spending most of their day looking for food and running from predators? Dying from infection and disease? No, but you confuse the human self-aware ideal of "freedom" and project it onto non-humans and think it fits, because you're incapable of critical thought.

Yes, there is a limit and yes animals can obviously be unhappy. Vegans just take that limit to an absurd extreme, with no basis in reality and where logic does not apply.

>>6693145
"How do you mean?"
It would be a matter of degree, I suspect for most who conclude one way or another on the subject. All farmed animals do what they do naturally. Some are afforded what could be considered more natural lives than others. Free range and pasturing, for instance, there is a large variety in those aspects of farming alone, and some direct correlations can be made to the keeping of bees.

"Are they killing the bees too?" Not intentionally, for the most part. Ideally a bee keeper wants to keep their hives productive, but that doesn't mean a lot of what could be considered unnecessary deaths occur, particularly, I would think, in a vegan mind set.

"Got any links I can read up on?"

Not really. I studied ecology and the issues came up from time to time in various conversations. A quick search of "beekeeping animal welfare" brought up a bunch of sites, though.

I don't have a problem with vegans, but I hate it when they try to push their agenda onto others. Food is a very personal thing, and is an integral part to a lot of cultures. You can't just ask someone to give up a vast portion of their ethnic identity because of your personal agenda.

>>6693155
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EfQLrqH5C0
I love this channel but they have a fucking obsession of not putting fat in their recipes, like never, it sounds like orthorexia.

>>6693177
Sure, you can cherry pick definitions for pretty much anything if you really just feel like arguing semantics. It doesn't really help you make your case from the point of view of a third party watching us debate. When I googled the definition for ethical I found tons of other definitions that do not rely on the majority opinion.
>My honest recommendation is to give up on creating vegans
But I've already succeeded at creating some vegans. I have literally prevented the suffering of hundreds if not thousands of animals per year because of my advocacy. Some people are not as receptive to my message, true. Hopefully a different vegan's message will entice them more. It's important to come at people from every angle. Notice how I have discussed health and environmentalism very little here. I usually approach these things separately unless talking to someone I know personally.

>>6693200
>but that doesn't mean a lot of what could be considered unnecessary deaths occur

Beekeepers fight tooth and nail to keep their hives healthy & productive, and no one wants honey fully of pesticides & weed killers. Please expand on what these "unnecessary deaths" are and how you think beekeepers cause them.

>>6693168
>Volunteers

Nice new word for vegan slaves.

Why don't you grow, fertilize, pollinate, tend, harvest, and produce all of the things you eat yourself? Why do you rely on slaves to do it for you?

Why do you live in a community powered by carbon emissions poisoning all plant/animal lives so you can be comfortable in your every day life? Why don't you take your shit lifestyle out to nature and see how long your "veganism" lasts?

>>6693211
>I have literally prevented the suffering of hundreds if not thousands of animals per year because of my advocacy.

Really? I shall redouble my efforts to eat more meat to compensate. I haven't had veal for ages come to think of it.

>>6693211
>Sure, you can cherry pick definitions for pretty much anything if you really just feel like arguing semantics
using literally the first definition to show up on a google result is not cherry picking.
>But I've already succeeded at creating some vegans
Yes, and they'll continue to be viewed as extremists, and society won't change. 'gratz

>>6693201
Just because you feel that rape and killing are an important part of your ethnic identity, that doesn't mean that I have to respect that. It doesn't mean that I shouldn't have freedom of speech.
Also, what the hell are you doing right now, pushing your agenda in a vegan thread? Nobody asked for your opinion. You're doing the very thing you don't like vegans to do to you. And now you expect us to respect your choice to rape and kill?

>>6693211
>literally prevented the suffering of hundreds if not thousands of animals per year
I'm going to need to see some official documentation, not some figures you pulled out of your ass.

>>6693216
>pollinate

Eleventy-fucking-billion this. Do you vegans realise all those vegetables you're eating are only there because those poor insects were used as free labor to pollinate the plants? Don't even get me started on the aphid predators used to protect those crops against their will, and the worms used to keep the soil churned. You utter fucking bastards.

>>6693211
CULTIST
>I've successfully created new vegans
>join us
JOIN US JOIN US JOIN US JOIN US JOIN US
Man you drank the koolaid hard son. Kek, kill yourself faggot
Every single one of you faggot vegans are obsessed about converting people
C U L T I S T

>>6693211
No you didn't. No factory farm or small farm has been impacted by you or your "friends". We just shipped what you didn't want to someone who actually appreciates the meat. You make no difference to the animals you love.

If you don't eat it, gov't still subsidizes the production of the animal you saved. The animal you saved is killed. The animal you saved is butchered. The animal you saved is eaten by someone who wouldn't have had the meal. It is still eaten, you just missed out on the nutrients. You make no difference.

>>6693211
haha you haven't done shit

>>6693216
>Nice new word for vegan slaves.
They are not slaves. They do this of their own free will because it's an excellent opportunity to meat compassionate and friendly people. They're usually young people and have a high turnover rate. The reason I don't grow my own food is because I don't have the space to do that. I have been looking into some shared gardens that you can pay to use, but I haven't yet decided on one.

>>6693213
""unnecessary deaths" are and how you think beekeepers cause them."

I didn't say I think they're unnecessary. I said that they could be considered unnecessary. And it's not a matter of me thinking they are caused. A lot of hives are unintentionally lost in commercial beekeeping. This is not ideal, as has already been stated, and which you agree with, but it occurs, that is a fact. Colony collapse disorder, for instance, is a relatively recent phenomena that had been drastically affecting the industry at large. During transportation, huge truckloads of hives have died due to overheating. Even without complete loss, there are often large losses in numbers.

>>6693211
>I have literally prevented the suffering of hundreds if not thousands of animals per year because of my advocacy

A) How many have you caused?
B) How do you know if they suffer?

>>6693227
I also didn't ask for your opinion. I was just stating my own thoughts and there you go lashing out at other people.
>pushing my agenda
Look who's talking faggot. As expected, vegans always project their own opinions onto others. And fuck you, degrading entire cultures because of 'muh ethical superiority'. You wouldn't have the freedom to be a vegan if it wasn't for the development of agriculture. Fuck off.

>>6693200

>All farmed animals do what they do naturally. Some are afforded what could be considered more natural lives than others

In animal agriculture, there's clear issues of space, sanitation, lack of medical care, poor quality food packed with antiobiotics and hormones, and perpetually pregnancy. Even in the best case fantasy scenario, a small farm that provides acres of land for animals to live on eating their natural food, free to roam as they please, with great medical care, the end result is still going to be slaughter, and at a relatively young age. I don't see how that's like bee pollination where you just take bees that are pollinating flowers somewhere, and put them near the flowers you want them to pollinate, and let them do their thing.

I'm interested in learning about bad industry practices in regards to bee keeping, but as a concept I'm not seeing a problem with having bees pollinate crops. There's no bee slaughter going on to harvest bee meat, is there?

>>6693227
Tell it to the slave bees you keep! Tell it to the poor immigrants pumping oil out of the Persian Gulf! Tell it to everyone effected by fracking! Tell it to all the marine life effected by oil spills! All so you can shitpost on the internet. In your comfy home. Built on slavery of bees and poor people. Hypocrite.

>>6693243
Now all you have to do is consider that hives collapse and die in nature, and that the number of cultivated hives that do not collapse massively outweigh the number of failed hives in nature. It is a net positive.

Even more importantly, how do you think all those vegetables you eat get pollinated?

>>6693246
see
>>6693243

>>6693239
>>6693238
Neither of you understand supply and demand. Let me explain this to you.

Good grocery stores use computers to calculate how much meat to order. If they have to throw meat out because it goes bad, this affects how much meat is ordered in the future. They try very hard not to order too much or too little. The meat suppliers also have a similar system in place. They pay attention to how much meat is being ordered and increase/decrease the amount of livestock they raise accordingly.

>>6693241
So did the African slaves. They thought it was just their place. It was just their role in life. Just like your bees and slaves. It doesn't make it right shitlord!

Hand pollinate if you care so much. Grow all your own food if you care so much. You are a holier than thou parasite.

>>6693244

>that image

One guy accidentally hits a deer while driving. One guy drives around in a car designed for killing deer, running over every deer he can find. Is one just as bad as the other?

>>6693254
>3 people not buying meat in one store is enough to save thousands of animals

>>6693254
lol you still didn't do shit

>>6693256
>So did the African slaves. They thought it was just their place. It was just their role in life
This is not true at all. Have you not heard of the Black Panthers or MLK? How about Rosa Parks? I'm not even black and what you just said is highly offensive. What the fuck is wrong with you?

>>6693249
Ok, now apply that logic to other animal farming, again, as a matter of degree. Many animals would not be alive without the practice. Does the increase in number of lives outweigh the increase in number of deaths? Most vegans would say no, of course not. But why? With the quality of life issues, especially if considering idealized scenarios as was previously brought up, the correlation ought to be clear.

>this thread
Quality posts as usual /ck/

>>6693254
And you still don't understand why that model doesn't work in the modern world, retard. Jesus Christ you are fucking stupid

>>6693269
As someone who has worked in that trade, I understand how that model is used in the modern world better than you apparently ever will

>>6693257
You've mixed up the numbers - the "accidental" guy kills many more deer than the on purpose guy, and he's just leaving them on the side of the road instead of actually using their meat/leather/etc so he's not even limited by how many he needs.

>>6693263
If they didn't think like that, why would they allow themselves to be in slaved in the first place? Why not fight for your right to live?

Were MLK, Rosa, or the Panthers slaves? Didn't think so. If they put up a fight to start they wouldn't have been slaves. Ask their brothers who caught them and sold them to us.

>>6693270
>I worked at a grocery store
>I understand economics!!!
HAHAHA man you are truly making a fool of yourself

>>6693254
yeah but this also makes meat cheaper so more poor people can eat more meat, a can of soup can have more meat and less filler, etc. Certainly some people refusing to eat meat has _some_ aggregate effect, but you can't translate it to exactly that much less meat produced.

>>6693278
So you literally think it's okay to exploit anyone who is either incapable or does not know how to defend themselves?

>>6693270
>As someone who has worked in that trade
mopping the floors until you get fired because vegans can't work for more than two days in a row doesn't count

>>6693263
And you still haven't addressed hand pollination or your addiction to Earth Killing fossil fuels. Come on bruh.

>>6693288
Not the same guy, but if society says it's okay, why not?

>>6693287
So you think the mega corporations with billions of dollars would intentionally reduce the amount of profit per unit of product they sell? They would almost certainly not add more meat to their soups. They would not want to set that kind of precedent.

>>6693288
Didn't know how to defend themselves? You are fucking delusional. Zulu warriors fought the British Empire with Spears against firearms. We're never enslaved. Put up a fight and you don't become enslaved.

Everything is born with a knowledge of self defense. Don't give me that hollow shit.

>>6693288
An animal is not a person.
I dont know any more ways to say it.
You keep asserting that we should treat animals as humans and this is just silly.
I am not sure you can be helped.

>>6693265
>With the quality of life issues

Do bees in a wild hive have a higher quality of life than bees in a kept hive 500 yards away?

Also, again, what do you think is used to pollinate all those vegetables you eat? It's easy to take the high ground when you ignore reality isn't it?

>>6693274

>You've mixed up the numbers - the "accidental" guy kills many more deer than the on purpose guy

How do you figure that? More than 10 billion animals die each year in factory farms. How many animals die as collateral in vegetable farming? Now take that number and multiply it by 8 and add that to the amount of animals that die in factory farms since we have to grow crops to feed those animals as well

>>6693288
And yet you do it to bees and poor people. And, I might add, those teenaged "volunteers" with the high turnover.

Hypocrite.

>>6693305
No, clearly they're right. We should be forcing animals to go to schools too, just like we do with our own children! They're just like us after all!

>>6693300
If they want to have more meat than their competitors they do. My point is economics are complex. Your model (less people buy meat = grocery store orders less meat = farmers produce less meat) implied meat would literally always ever have the exact same price.

>>6693319
If anything meat would become more expensive faggot. Less of a demand = higher price

>>6693295

Society changes its mind. Why wait for a revolution when you already know what's okay and what isn't?

>>6693315
I'll be honest, I would pay real money to watch a reality TV show where farm animals have to go to school.

>>6693313
Calm down Scott Steiner. Pulling numbers outta your ass.

> Nigga went Steiner Math mode

>>6693305
We all know this, but they really don't. See >>6693199

>>6693292
I don't drive and I've already stated in previous posts that I avoid bee pollinated crops as much as possible. Most of my food is grown indoors by humans without the use of any pesticides or animal products

>>6693290
We don't mop floors at the factory we spray with water

>>6693314
>bees
Read my first response in this post
>volunteers ... hypocrite
I used to be a volunteer. I genuinely enjoyed it. I wish I still had the time to do that, but I've moved on to bigger things. So, by definition, that is not hypocrisy.

>>6693324
> lower demand = higher price
> that means higher demand = lower price
Yeah that's why gas goes down every thanksgiving weekend when everyone wants to fill up their car to go see their family.

>people responding to this same troll over and over
He is one of the most successful I've seen on this board

>>6693324
>Less of a demand = higher price

>>6693329
A VEGAMS DONT GET MY SYMPY
AN THEY DONT GET THE SYMPY OF THE PEOPLE

>>6693334
lol whatever mop boy

>>6693329

http://farmusa.org/statistics11.html

If you've got other statistics, I'm happy to check them out

>>6689600

>>6693327
>Why wait for a revolution
Because it's not going to happen
>when you already know what's okay and what isn't?
You don't. You're talking about morals as if they're facts, and they simply aren't.
>>6693336
>>6693341
meat isn't gas dumbfuck. Unfiltered cigarettes for example, are much higher in price because there's virtually no demand for them.

>>6693311
"to take the high ground"

What? I don't know what you believe I am implying. I am not a vegan, and I fully support animal farming, if that is what where any confusion lies. Follow the replies. I think you must be conflating viewpoints.

Also, yes, I would say that most who advocate for the natural life sort of thing for animal welfare would not argue the beekeeping is not entirely natural, because it simply isn't. The hives must be transported and cultivated, and the manner in which the hives are used has caused losses in numbers that would not occur naturally over a vastly longer time period, with a greater number of days lived for non-kept bees on average, and more natural processes at work.

>>6693348
It's a well known fact that farm production responds to the market within hours of demand dropping. No 3 year leads and market futures to consider, no sir. One guy decides not to eat a bacon sandwich that week? Five pigs don't get slaughtered. Trufax.

I don't think suffering is ok. I tried to go vegan but its much nicer to eat meat to me. I still don't like animal suffering and definitely think it should be kept to as little as possible while still making everyone comfy. I even hope the animals are comfy. I guess im just saying I hope we are all comfy.

>>6693357
yep m8, they just let the pigs go :^)
because after investing in feeding them, why try to make money off of them?

>>6693357
convincing other people to consistently abstain from animal products does objectively result in less animals being raised for slaughter. You're just having a hard time grasping this concept because you're trying to think about it as a percentage compared to the 56 billion animals per year that are slaughtered. Even if it's only 1 animal per year less, that's still worth it to me. That is less suffering.

>>6693361

>I don't think suffering is ok
>but its much nicer to eat meat

>>6693373
Butcher employed at a grocery here, I'll an extra loin or two just for you.

>>6693373
>convincing other people to consistently abstain from animal products does objectively result in less animals being raised for slaughter.

Only if you've offset the number of new people eating meat.

So unless you can convince 85,500,000 per year to go vegan, you aren't doing shit.

>>6693379

Hyuk hyuk! Y-you tell 'em, Skeeter! Yee haw!

>>6693361
hoping for the abusive mega corporations to treat animals kindly doesn't make it happen.

>>6693379
I really think you are mentally ill if you are actually going to intentionally cause more suffering just to spite someone who had a different opinion than you on the internet. You are also compromising your professionalism.

>>6693381
>Only if you've offset the number of new people eating meat.
First off, that's not how that works at all. Those new people would eat meat in either scenario. The demand they create for animal products is completely independent of the demand that other people create.
Second, I probably do offset that number by some amount. Vegans have children too, and they usually raise their children vegan.

Your argument is fundamentally flawed in multiple ways.

>>6693371
>yep m8, they just let the pigs go :^)
that's why they have all those wild hogs running around

>>6693395
makes sense to me, go vegan!!1!

>>6693390
>First off, that's not how that works at all.

Back up, the claim was, and I shall quote

>convincing other people to consistently abstain from animal products does objectively result in less animals being raised for slaughter.
>objectively result in less
>objectively

New demand driven by population growth means that It doesn't. That's an objective fact.

Objectively, the text I quoted it wrong.

>>6693371
No, they simply breed less than they otherwise would for the batches after their computer calculates their projected/expected demand.

>>6693334
You don't drive but, your life is powered by fossil fuels dumbass. You are killing the planet,not by what you eat, by how you live. Slippery slope shitlord. Go self sustain au natural in the wild if you believe so much.

>>6693404
>after their computer calculates their projected/expected demand.

Hahaha, oh wow, you really think that's how the GLOBAL market for animal products, and animal farming GLOBALLY works?

Yeah, I can detect the naive childlike emotional thinking here. Keep dreaming.

>>6689600
Daily reminder that vegans posting here use computers, which are made by ruining the environment that their precious animals live in.

>>6693402
So you missed the implicit meaning in my sentence that I assumed everyone would get. I suspect you did and are choosing to argue semantics because that's what all meat eaters do. However, I'll spell it out for you by rephrasing my sentence.
>convincing other people to consistently abstain from animal products does objectively result in less animals being raised for slaughter than would otherwise be raised.
Being pedantic isn't really an argument

Why are these threads allowed

>>6693409
It was issued to me from the place I work because it's a necessary part of my job. Also, my job helps reduce animal suffering.

>>6693413
>the implicit meaning

If it's implicit, don't use absolute statements. I wasn't the one who used the word "objectively". Your inability to understand how that works is a perfect example of the subjective, emotionally led thinking that vegans display when they're projecting human characteristics onto animals.

>>6693418
Apparently it doesn't.
Leave it to a vegan to have such inconsistent logic.
>It's okay for me to hurt animals because reasons!

>>6693421
>It's okay for me to hurt animals because reasons!

Hey, that logic works for PETA...

>mfw I don't really give a shit about animals dying because I can't see them

ten animals died to provide the electricity used to make this thread

>>6693421
It's impossible to live without causing some amount of harm. Veganism is about reducing harm as much as possible without compromising my own life. While purchasing any mass produced product is harmful in some way, sometimes it is necessary. In the case of my job it is necessary to own a computer. Without it I would not be able to reduce the amount of harm contributed by other people as much. My job involves not only abstaining from animal products, but also advocating to reduce the amount of harm inflicted by others.

>>6693466
>Veganism is about reducing harm as much as possible

As we've already proven, that isn't true, but I guess it's a useful trope to trot out when you're caught in the lie.

>it is necessary to own a computer. Without it I would not be able to reduce the amount of harm contributed by other people as much.

We had to destroy the village in order to save it.

>>6693480
I don't really care about your narrow minded opinions regarding the effectiveness of my job when all the studies have indicated that the tactics employed by the company I work for are effective at reducing the sale of animal products compared to what would otherwise have been expected. You don't even realize how many people go vegan on account of myself and other people who do what I do. This company receives so many letters from people expressing their gratitude and telling stories about how our work helped them make the switch. The fact is that without computers I cannot record and upload video footage to show people the truth about where their food comes from.

>>6693421
>>6693409

>you're using a COMPUTER!
>so are you, and you also stab cows in the neck

>well you eat vegetables picked by POOR PEOPLE!
>so do you, and you also cut pigs in half

>well you use transportation!
>so do you, and you also chop the heads off of chickens

>grrrrr! but I just want to nitpick the behavior of people who are trying to make the world a better place! don't focus on the fact that everything I do is worse!

>>6693496
>You don't even realize how many people go vegan on account of myself and other people who do what I do.

No, I don't deal in imaginary numbers.

>>6693497
The difference is: the non-vegans don't take a smug moral high ground.

Also the non-vegans don't need to twist & turn in the wind to excuse their use of products & processes which don't fit their near little box when it's an inconvenience.

>>6693509
>The difference is: the non-vegans don't take a smug moral high ground.
It's not smug to try to convince other people to reduce the amount of harm they are committing. Meat eaters are the ones who get overly defensive and freak out about the idea of eating plants.

>>6693514
>It's not smug to try to convince other people to reduce the amount of harm they are committing

No, it's just smug when it's smug. Which it is.

>>6693509

>the non-vegans don't take a smug moral high ground.

read any vegan thread including this one. non-vegans have at least as much of a condescending attitude towards vegans.

>Also the non-vegans don't need to twist & turn in the wind to excuse their use of products & processes which don't fit their near little box when it's an inconvenience.

the comparisons are ridiculous though. things like computers and conventionally grown vegetables are practically impossible not to use in modern life, but you can easily avoid meat and dairy products.

>>6693497
I don't care if you enslave bees, immigrants, or "volunteers". I don't care if you use fossil fuels to live your life while actual humans suffer for it. I do care that you scrutinize what I have on my plate for dinner. You aren't better, or making more of a difference, than I am or any other anon dipstick. Get that through your malnourished skull.

Torture yourself all you want, let me have the same freedom. Every livestock you present, there is an equal human or insect equal holding your lifestyle up.

plants have more souls than animals and animals have like fifty souls

>>6693530
>non-vegans have at least as much of a condescending attitude towards vegans.

Derision and pointing out logical inconsistency is not condescension.

>>6693526
>No, it's just smug when it's smug. Which it is.
Meat eaters only choose to interpret it that way because it's a convenient excuse to disregard what they are telling you. The truth is that we see people who exhibit a psychological dependency for animal products as victims too and we just want to help them get better.

>>6693532

>you aren't better than me just because you do things that make you better than me
>I don't want to make any effort at anything in life, and you should respect me for that

worst case scenario, a vegan does all the bad things you do, minus the mass slaughter of animals and rapid destruction of the planet.

>>6693530
You can easily avoid "modern life" if you cared so much. Might be hard to sustain a vegan life but, give it a try if you care so much.

Or do you just not care enough about Earth? How many animals do you save not eating meat? Offset that with how many die to give you "modern" LUXURIES.

Talk the talk, walk the walk hypocrite.

>>6693526

Smug doesn't even have a meaning anymore. Now it's just "if you make me feel bad about the shitty things I do, you're SMUG, and that means I don't have to listen to you"

>>6693548
>The truth is that we see people who exhibit a psychological dependency for animal products as victims too and we just want to help them get better.
>Smug pop-sci armchair psychology intensifies

>>6693550
>You can easily avoid "modern life" if you cared so much. Might be hard to sustain a vegan life but, give it a try if you care so much.
Some people do that, but I believe that reduces the effectiveness of our ability to advocate to other people and reduce harm further by helping other people to reduce harm in their lifestyle.

>>6693549
And it makes no difference. I walk everywhere. I have a smaller carbon footprint than you. I make more of a difference than you.

>>6693552
So is it wrong to help addicts because they might consider me smug? That's kind of an irrational argument.

>>6693559

>I walk everywhere. I have a smaller carbon footprint than you.

as do I. now we're the same, except you also support the most environmentally destructive industry on the planet.

>>6693558
So you talk a big game but, you won't sacrifice actual comfort for your belief. What does that make you? Oh, right. Hypocrite. Glad you cleared it up.

>>6693558
>I believe that reduces the effectiveness of our ability to advocate to other people and reduce harm further by helping other people to reduce harm in their lifestyle.
>We had to destroy the village in order to save it

So you think people should do as you say, not as you do?

>>6693560
An addiction support program where the people "supporting" acted as smug as vegans wouldn't help anybody.

>>6693560

>I wanted to go to rehab to get over my heroin addiction, but the rehab people were so SMUG!
>what did they do?
>they told me I had a "PROBLEM" and "WANTED TO HELP"! what a bunch of smug pricks! they think they're better than me! well the bitch at the desk had a cup of coffee! caffeine is a drug! walk the talk, motherfucker!

>>6693565
No. I don't tell people to give up modern life. I tell them to give up animal products. I think other people should stay ingrained in modern life for the same reason that I choose to. So that they can advocate more effectively. By definition this is not hypocrisy. Do you even know what that word means?

>>6693562
My electricity is 100% solar and thermal powered. I have you beat again.

>>6693562
I spend my summers planting saplings. I'm carbon negative; I am a net positive impact on the planet.

>>6693570
It's not analogous to a support program so much as an intervention. It's on you to be a decent human.

>>6693576
>>6693579
>>6693562
>>6693559

>the direction this is going

>>6693579
spending your summers planting trees doesn't make up for the negative impact created by eating animal products.

>>6693584
Not all meat eaters are a drain on the planet.

Can't be said for special snowflake vegans.

>>6693573
>I tell them to give up animal products.

Why? What's the supporting basis for your argument? Remind us again.

>I think other people should stay ingrained in modern life for the same reason that I choose to.

So you think you should get to enjoy all the trappings of modern life but everyone else shouldn't? You're what, more equal than everyone else? Four legs good, two legs better!

>>6693572

>>6693585
Yes it does. Prove it doesn't.

>>6693585
Spending your days not eating meat doesn't make up for the negative impact of your carbon emissions by living the way you do.

you can't carbon footprint your way around my massive farts

>>6693593
Thank you. End of thread. The vegans can go get a burger now.

>>6693589
>Why? What's the supporting basis for your argument? Remind us again.
Because it's the easiest way to reduce your negative impact on the planet in the fastest way. Most people who become vegan continue to look for ways to reduce their negative impact. It's a good starting point. Deforestation so we can slaughter 56 billion animals per year isn't justified when we have alternatives that would require far less land and other resources.

>>6693593
I aim to reduce the negative impact from other people as well, and I would argue that I probably have made up for my own negative impact by this point.

>defensive meat eaters turn to tu quoque fallacy rather than admit to the bad things they do

every thread

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

>>6693600
lol china called you're efforts mean nothing

>>6693600
>Because it's the easiest way to reduce your negative impact on the planet in the fastest way.

So again, everyone else should compensate for your lifestyle? But it's okay because you'll just get more people to compensate over time? Cool story my non-gender-specific siblin'.

>>6693600
Easiest way to reduce damage to environment is to adopt a carbon neutral or carbon negative lifestyle. You are just too lazy to do it. The fuck outta here, you have been rekt beyond rekt hypocrite.

>>6693604
>Look at me, I searched Wikipedia for the list of logical fallacies

Man you even picked a good one.

It's not an appeal to hypocrisy when it is hypocrisy.

>>6693603
Start with yourself hypocrite. Practice what you preach, in real life applications.

Volunteers don't make your lifestyle right.

>>6693607

>Easiest way to reduce damage to environment is to adopt a carbon neutral or carbon negative lifestyle

In part, by giving up meat and dairy products

>>6693606
China is nothing compared to the 56 billion animals

>>6693610
I do. Are you dense? I preach veganism. I am a vegan. By definition that is not hypocrisy. Do you know what that word even means?

>>6693612
In whole by giving up fossil fuels.

[X]REKT
[ ] Not REKT

>>6693609

whether it's hypocrisy or not, you're discrediting the person instead of responding to the argument

>>6693617

Much of which is used in animal agriculture

>>6693615
>I do!!! Save le animals!!*

*Powered by Oil and Coal

>>6693615
>I preach veganism
>I preach
>prach

So it is a religion? Now it all makes sense.

By the way his point is you claim to be a vegan because commercial animal farming has a negative environmental impact, but the fact is there are far better ways to reduce your carbon footprint; if you *actually* cared about your environmental impact, you'd do those things first. As you don't, your claims of environmentalist activism are bullshit and you're a hypocrite.

>>6693615
lol china IS 56 billion animals

>>6693626
And by people like yourself. Everyday, even now.

While I sit here powered by the sun and heat from the sun.

>>6693619
There's an overwhelming response to the argument. You're looking at posts directly above and below me which are responding to the argument.

>>6693619
Have the person address bees and immigrants and you might have a point shitlord.

If they can't see they are abusing others while on an anti abuse platform they ARE a hypocrite.

>>6693629

>there are far better ways to reduce your carbon footprint

Avoiding meat and dairy would be the most effective way to do so

>you'd do those things first

You can do other things in addition to giving up meat and dairy, which they've already acknowledged they do

>As you don't

Do you? You're more concerned with eating bacon and cheese than you are with having any positive impact on the world, and you're trying to take shots at someone for advocating a sustainable diet because they use a computer

>>6693635

>There's an overwhelming response to the argument.

all of which is "I bet you do some bad things too"

>>6693629
>So it is a religion? Now it all makes sense.
If christians could back up their claims with verifiable evidence I would convert. It's not like I'm preaching the existence of a unverifiable being

>>6693641
>Avoiding meat and dairy would be the most effective way to do so

No it isn't.

>You're more concerned with eating bacon and cheese than you are with having any positive impact on the world

You have no idea what my impact, positive or negative, has been or will be on this world. More smug bullshit.

>>6693641
Getting off fossil fuels would be more effective. Getting others off fossil fuels would be even more effective. Dense cunt.

I'll give up meat and dairy when you gethink off the oil and petrochemical teet faggot. I am off said teet.

You are more concerned with a random animal that all life on earth. I think I have the high ground here oil scum.

>>6693654

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/jun/02/un-report-meat-free-diet

The UN wants you to avoid meat and dairy. Are you going to do it now or are they just smug assholes?

>>6693664
I think climate change is a bigger deal than eating meat. Care to Google it?

>>6693664
>The UN wants you to avoid meat and dairy.

The UN wants Russia to admit there was a massacre in Sebrenica and for Israel to stop killing people, so what difference does what the UN want make?

Also when did the UN become an authority on anything outside of global politics and ineffective talking shops?

>>6693669
sure, if you ignore the fact that animal agriculture is a major contributing factor towards climate change

>>6693466
>Veganism is about reducing harm as much as possible without compromising my own life.
not eating meat is compromising your own life. at least it would be comropomising mine, and many others.
Veganism is REALLY a way of making yourself feel better.

>>6693662

>Getting off fossil fuels would be more effective.

This isn't a separate issue. You avoid meat and dairy, you cut out a big chunk of fossil fuel use.

>I'll give up meat and dairy when you gethink off the oil and petrochemical teet faggot

Already there. So now you'll agree to stop eating meat and dairy, the largest contributors to global warming on the planet?

>n-no c-cause... c-cause fuck you and stuff...

Alright then.

>>6693664
If everyone went solar/green it would save more life than vegans.

What happens when Earth can't support any life?

>>6693685

Is doing both out of the question?

>>6693680
>not eating meat is compromising your own life. at least it would be comropomising mine, and many others.
I'm not sure where you got that idea, but vegan b12 supplements and plants aren't prohibitively expensive. In fact, overall it's much cheaper. Furthermore, animal products are the leading contributor to heart disease, the number 1 killer in the US. Eating meat is compromising your own life.

>>6693681
When you agree to stop using petrochemicals, I will stop eating carbon neutral meat and dairy.

>>6693681
>N-no C-cause fuck everything living on the planet.

>As long as I can buy my electricity and can get Mexicans/Volunteers or grow my food.
> I am making a difference.
> Sitting in A/C on the Internet powered by carbon fuels.

This fucking smug.

>>6693694

>carbon neutral meat and dairy

>>6693699

>if I make up more strawmen and call him smug again, I'll be a winner!

>>6693694

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jul/21/giving-up-beef-reduce-carbon-footprint-more-than-cars

Bruh....

>>6693709
Because fossil fuels he uses every day don't harm the planet more than raising livestock.

>Muh strawman

Fuck outta here

>>6693722

You have the idea in your head that someone can or should only avoid one of those things. You can avoid using fossil fuels AND avoid eating meat and dairy products. I'm about to walk to the grocery store, as I don't own a car, and while I'm there I won't be buying meat or any dairy products. It's a win-win. Being as easy at is to avoid meat and dairy, and considering how much it contributes to environmental damage, wouldn't you agree that it's at least one of the first few things people should consider when trying to live more sustainably?

>>6693764
As he types from a computer that was made with chemicals that are harmful to the environment, by 8 year old workers in asialand.

>>6693773

You're going backwards in the conversation now.

>>6693776
>muh redusin harm
>u have to give up meet, but i wanna go on facebook lolz
>it's okay for me to ruin animal's homes with toxic chemicals, but heaven forbid you have a burger!
yeah, you guys made such good points.

>>6693797

>he says this while also being on a computer

>>6693803
Difference being I'm not acting like I'm better than you. I don't go around telling people how they should live their lives for the sake of animals, without sacrificing the things you give a shit about.
So shut the fuck up you dumb ass fucking hypocrite.

>>6693811

>acts like he's better than him because he uses a computer
>gets called out for using a computer as well in addition to supporting animal agriculture
>"fuk u its not like i actually care anyway go fuck yourself smugasaurus rex!"

>>6693831
No, I never said I was better. I just said that fuck isn't putting his money where his mouth is. I really hope you're fucking b8, otherwise my faith in humanity is completely gone.

>>6693811

If

>Being as easy as it is to avoid meat and dairy, and considering how much it contributes to environmental damage, wouldn't you agree that it's at least one of the first few things people should consider when trying to live more sustainably?

is acting like I'm better than you, I don't think there's anything I can say that won't activate your victim complex.

>this thread
thanks obama!

>>6693840

This is shit we went over long ago in the thread. Not using technology isn't a practical solution in the modern world. The fact that you're also using a computer goes to show how avoiding the use of technology is nigh impossible, whether at home or at work. You're living in a house that required some resources to build. Surely though you wouldn't say "people should live on the street instead of not eating beef if they REALLY care about the environment." Walking past the meat aisle towards the dry bean aisle and picking up some lentils is one of the easiest and most effective things you could do. It also comes with the benefit of improving your health, which could lower health care costs as well, which the US desperately needs.

Since the thread's quieted down, I'm going to take my walk before it gets dark out. Good talking to you, bro

My anti vegan thread get b& and this garbage goes to 361 poasts
fucking gay ass vegan mod

>>6693870
>The fact that you're also using a computer goes to show how avoiding the use of technology is nigh impossible, whether at home or at work
No, it shows I'm a NEET with too much free time. I also don't drive, but fuck man, meat is awesome, and fuck everyone who disagrees.

>>6693843
Solar panels and a thermal water heater are easier and make more of a difference that using fossil fuels and not eating meat.

>>6689617
They are not activated almonds. Its a trigger.

before

>>6693991
after

I would have used brown rice and cilantro if I had any left.

>>6689600
>>>6693155
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EfQLrqH5C0
>I love this channel but they have a fucking obsession of not putting fat in their recipes, like never, it sounds like orthorexia.


>>6693203

Thanks for this!

>>6692434

Lol, as if there are any real human carnivores.

Go and eat a big piece of uncured pork and get back to me you dumb fucking nigger. I mean, you silly natural herbivore.

>>6693603
>I would argue that I probably have made up for my own negative impact by this point
Based on any sort of actual evidence or just your own self-congratulating feels?

>>6693648
More like "your obsession with this one expenditure of energy does nothing to solve the larger problem and only serves to absolve yourself of guilt"

>>6693676
b-but muh appeal to authority in absence of evidence!

>>6693700
>>6693718
>I'm an uneducated moron who doesn't know the difference between intensive industrial farming and sustainable grazing that can even improve ecosystems and aid de-desertification

>>6693831
>I don't need to stop using my tumblr and facebook because surely I've already saved the earth several times over by telling people meat is murder

>>6693843
>Being as easy as it is to avoid modern resource intensive luxuries, and considering how much they contributes to environmental damage, wouldn't you agree that it's at least one of the first few things people should consider when trying to live more sustainably?
>hypocrisy is fine because I know I'm right so it must be somehow in service to the greater good

>>6694956
Based on the studies the organization I work for has performed regarding the effectiveness of the content I produce

>>6694987
Abstaining from using social media services would be bad in terms of how it would affect the animals. You can't advocate nearly as well if you avoid mainstream social media. Isn't this obvious?