/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>>10788933
Cute is cute, and the trend of trying to make "deeply flawed relatable characters" is annoying. Sometimes there's no need to be so edgy.

If I wanted art, I'd be reading art.

It can't be helped...

"Cliche" is just the Western word for "likeable". Nobody likes special snowflakes.

>>10788939
Usually the "deeply flawed" super deep character in anime is just a used goods or done with NTR, Japs are really unimaginative.

Cliches exist in 'high-quality' works like literature, too, you just don't see them. The whole 'group dynamic' with one character being tenacious, wreckless, energetic, fearless, another opposite them being cautious, thoughtful, calculating, etc.

>>10788948

Except people do like special snowflakes, which is why any time a writer, studio, or mangaka squeezes out a character with a hint of original personality, people flock to them frothing at the mouth.

See: Rei.

>>10788933
It's exactly what otaku wish for. If you want realistic and edgy characters this is the wrong hobby for you.

Makes my dick hard.

>>10788957
Yeah man, Rei was super original and there were no characters like her until 1995.

Classic tsundere characters are the best

Depends on how they are written in the story. The more cliche a character's personality is, the harder it is to write something good and unique with it.

>>10788959
Are you using "edgy" in the correct sense of the word?

What is going on here?

>>10788957

The coolest thing about Rei is her visual design, not her personality traits. Or rather, how the two match up.

She's visually albino. Frosty white skin, red eyes. Albino animals are different. Rei was different emotionally.

>>10788966

No, there weren't, actually. Feel free to give me an example of a character with Rei's personality.

>>10788968
>unique
Otaku media are all about repetition of old but generally approved formula,

>>10788972
>Feel free to give me an example of a character with Rei's personality.

You mean a character with Ruri's personality

>>10788972
holy shit i love rei i still think she's the sexiest character ever made

>>10788981

Ruri does not have Rei's personality. Rei is not emotionless.

All creative work is derivative.

>>10788981
She was after Ayanami.

>>10788991

"class president", for sure.

Which personality is the most overused? Tsundere? Shy and fragile? Proper lady?

>>10788987
I was going to say that Ruri does not have Rei's personality since Ruri is not emotionless.

>>10788972
sailor pluto

Rei Ayanami is my wife. Not my ``epic /a/ waifuouou'', my WIFE.

>>10788971
Pardon my choice of words. After consulting an online dictionary I realized it didn't have the meaning I thought it has.

"Super deep flawed characters with dark backstory and realistic personality" is what I meant.

>>10788933
I don't. I can't feel for blatant genericism.

>>10788999
>999
>rei's hair is blue
>cirnos hair is blue

BAKA

>>10788999

How can you love a titless doll?

Has there ever been a tsundere character who was actually unpopular or hated? It seems that the character who acts tsundere will always be popular.

Oh hey, an unusual-looking, unemotional character with a troubled past who comes to terms with their problems and becomes more emotional as they opens up to people.
THE REI SURE IS ORIGINAL *sucks Japan's microdick*

You know what disgusts me? Rei and Gainax.

You'd think that when you make something somewhat original, even if just by accident, you should have some responsibility to make the most out of it.

I haven't seen Rei feature in anything good except the original anime, and arguably the manga.

>>10788992
>>10788987
Both have emotions, Ruri is more sarcastic.
Rei is a very sad and broken girl, but she can't really show it.

>>10789027
There are people who generally hate the archetype, I guess.

>>10789038
Those are more prevalent in the Western community for some reason.

>>10789029

Did you even watch Evangelion? None of that described Rei other than 'unusual-looking'.

Also, why the fuck are you using 'unusual-looking' as if it is somehow a generic trait? 'generic unusual appearance' is an oxymoron.

>>10789029
wow dude what

>>10789052
Rei does have a troubling past, and does become more open with others as time go on.

Rei and Spock share that "deadpan" attitude often, both seem logical, capable and rational.

Spock's focus on logic and rationality is WAY larger than Rei's, where it comes naturally instead of as a belief.

>>10789039
>You know what disgusts me? Rei and Gainax.

>You'd think that when you make something somewhat original, even if just by accident, you should have some responsibility to make the most out of it.

>I haven't seen Rei feature in anything good except the original anime, and arguably the manga.

I'll just sum up my opinion on this with this one image.

>>10789052
Don't tell me having blue hair isn't a cliche.

>>10789059
>it comes naturally instead of as a belief.

The same can be said of Vulcans.

>>10789059

'become more open with others as time go on.'

!=

'becomes more emotional'

>>10789060
He's in tons of books.

>>10789064
Well, I can agree with that.

>>10789068
Pardon my lack of knowledge, but aren't Vulcans also raised with that in mind?

>>10789052
>Also, why the fuck are you using 'unusual-looking' as if it is somehow a generic trait? 'generic unusual appearance' is an oxymoron.
It's a holistic trait. It's like how the ugly ducking is very cliche because of the context the "duckling" is in.

>>10789074

This is the most hilariously faulty rationale. Is it cliche to be not-cliche because, holistically speaking, a lot of things aren't cliche?

>>10789082
You're an idiot.
>Is it cliche to be not-cliche because, holistically speaking, a lot of things aren't cliche?
No. What I was saying was you have to look at the context in order to understand why the character is different. For example an emo kid is still different from most of society but may follow the idea of what it means to be an emo kid.

There is no flawed rationale. Variations from the norm still may follow a formula.

>>10789090
Sounds unhygienic.

How do you feel about my dick in your ass?

>>10789088

>You're an idiot.

Must be, damn. My disagreement with your perilously retarded argument is indicative of my lower intelligence.

>>10789065
That's my point. He's been completely ruined through overuse.

>>10789092
That's my point. It's been completely ruined through overuse.

>>10789088
>For example an emo kid is still different from most of society but may follow the idea of what it means to be an emo kid.

what does this have to do with anything

are you high

>>10789097
Way to dodge my refutation. The point remains that just because something is different from the majority does not mean it is not cliche.

>>10789060
>>10789100
oh, it was overuse....

well that can be said somewhat for Rei too, since she does star in shitty spinoffs along with everyone else.

But there lacks something good and defining.

>>10789102

You do not have a refutation. Your example is completely irrelevant. You're saying that Rei belongs to a 'second majority' which doesn't exist.

>>10789101
My point was even if something is different from the mainstream it may still follow a certain formula and thus is still cliche if it is within that context.

>>10789106

cool, it still has nothing to do with anything

reality is also cliche

>>10789107
I was never arguing if Rei herself was cliche. I don't care about Rei. I was arguing that an "unusual appearance" can still be cliche if the character as a whole follows various patterns that are usually associated with ugliness/oddity. I have never said anything about Rei.

>>10789109
What a cliché comment.

>>10789029
Rei isn't unusual-looking in any way.

>>10789113
Blue hair

>>10789117

Red eyes, also.

>>10789115

"unusual" means it doesn't follow those patterns. Please brush up on your words.

>>10789110
I don't see how that has nothing to do with anything. I was asked to prove how an unusual appearance could mean that something was cliche and I believe I provided a sufficient example.

>>10789112
what a cliche reply

>>10789126
Once again.

"Unusual" only means it doesn't follow patterns of appearance in that context. That means only appearance. I would also point to people who think they are "special snowflakes." We know that they are probably following certain patterns of something, right? They are probably not completely unusual. In fact, their unusualness may be responsible for the patterns of action (see: otaku). In which circumstance they may be cliche. Once again it depends on the entire context.

You are trying to limit the word in a way that it's not limited by. It's not just black and white, "Oh this is what unusual means so it can't possibly be cliche."

>>10789139
I would also like to add that since unusual is such a general word sometimes authors may attempt be make a character unusual and in fact they may still be formulaic. A scar across the eye on a veteran character for example.

I don't mind how many cliches are used as long as the characters have depth.

>>10788967
>Classic tsundere
what is this

>>10789168
a tsundere that isn't modern

>>10789168
The good type of tsundere.

>>10789168
http://vndb.org/i365
http://vndb.org/i218

>>10789167
it's not shitposting if you're being le ironic

>>10789168
The real kind of tsundere. As opposed to the violent, say the opposite of what you mean, tsundere.

>>10789168
Akiha is something to aspire to

I think it would be really cool to see something like a slice of life about extreme anime archetypes who are brought together by group behavioral cognitive therapy sessions to overcome their extreme social handicaps and become friends. It might be unbearable to watch without some kind of a straight-man character, though.

>>10789244

I don't want another gimmicky comedy anime with characters that represent things. Upotte, Hetalia, etc. are enough.

I love them.

Japan is just stealing ideas from american cartoons

>>10789268
A wacky gag-based comedy would get tacky fast but I was thinking more like a fairly serious show that tackles their psychosis with lots of room for character development and growth as they learn to behave in socially appropriate ways with each other and function in society. Some tasteful comedy would be nice though.

>>10789285
http://youtu.be/RcReAuVMrF8

Helga is lewd!

>>10789300
Wow, that actually is lewd.

I thought rei was created because anno was mad at otaku and wanted to make a character with no appeal but it horribly backfired

>>10788948
actually it's literally "stereotype" with a slightly different formation

>>10789505
It's literally an onomatopoeia for the sound a printing press makes.

>>10789068
actually Vulcans are supposed to have especially strong emotions, that's part of why they came up with the whole "logic > everything" philosophy, so they wouldn't wipe out or hold back their species with infighting

>>10789524
They would just become Romulans.

>>10789100

Otaku media is filled with otaku-specific symbols. "Cliche personalities" are nothing more than character archetypes. They exist in every narrative form. That said, I like otaku media in part because of these archetypes. I can't find them elsewhere.

>>10789039
>You'd think that when you make something somewhat original, even if just by accident, you should have some responsibility to make the most out of it.
What does that even mean? NGE was a huge failure in the sense that it exacerbated what Anno thought were fundamental problems with the current otaku generation. All he can do now is continue to tell the story until they "get it." They won't.

>>10789511
yes, the French started using it as a word for things that popped up again and again in print, and "stereotype"-- you know what, I'm sure we can all Google stuff, I'll stop there

>>10789568

>"Cliche personalities" are nothing more than character archetypes. They exist in every narrative form.

Wow, so this thing I hate is everywhere? That sure changes nothing at all!

>>10789672
Character archetypes are embedded into our storytelling and culture. What I'm saying is that it's stupid to hate something because it's archetypal. It exists for a reason. If you don't like a particular archetype, go watch/read something else. More than anything, you and everyone else who's fixated on the surface symbols have missed the point.

Before you go hating things unduly, please consider the purpose of narrative and storytelling. It's nothing more than a vehicle in which to express themes and ideas. Archetypes function not unlike words in a sentence.

>>10789725

>It exists for a reason.

Feel free to give me the reason. "It's everywhere therefore it's right" is hilariously stupid logic. All of the world believed that black people weren't human for a long period of time.

>>10789939
Archetypes exist because somewhere along the way, people realized that people enjoy stories where X happens or that feature Y thing, and proceeded to make more stories where X happens or which feature Y thing.

>All of the world believed that black people weren't human for a long period of time.
This is the dumbest fucking analogy.

>>10789947

No it isn't, you just have no argument.

>>10789947
If you rely only on things that have worked in the past, you are doomed to be mediocre at best.

>>10789970
I answered your question. I wasn't aware that I was being expected to make some sort of additional argument.

It can be a good thing or a bad thing

>>10789973
The fact that most people will be mediocre regardless of what they attempt notwithstanding, most storytellers combine new and old elements in their good stories anyway.

>>10789984

Are you that guy who threw a tantrum and started spamming a couple weeks ago when people called you out for talking like this?

>>10789989
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

>>10789992

Way to publicly humiliate yourself again. Truly epic.

>>10790002
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

>>10789984
When people complain about cliche characters, they mean all the characters are cliche. Like you admitted, you need to have new as well.

>>10790004

Steamin'.

Do not reply to this post.

>>10789168
Think Li from CCS.

>>10790008
Sometimes authors put them in new situations or develop them in different ways instead of changing up the archetypes.

The same character can be the main character of a dozen different stories without any of them necessarily being boring.

>>10790014
D

>>10790014
Kill yourself.

>>10790040
>>10790030

How angry can one kid be?

Cliche personalities don't bother me so much as long as the rest of the character (actions, desires...) are there. Not everyone has the mental aptitude for their own distinct personality.

>>10788957
Yoshiyuki Sadamoto, one of the founding members of Gainax and the character designer for the television series created Rei.

Sadamoto speaks in an interview, which was published in volume 2 of the official manga, about the sources of inspiration and the influences that shaped Rei's design.
“ The first time you see Rei, she is all bandaged up. The group Kinniku Shojo Tai has a song called Hotai de Masshiro na Shojo [The Girl White with Bandages]. When I heard that song, an image popped into my mind; I thought, "I'd like to draw a girl like that," and then I drew Rei from that image. „

Further into the interview Sadamoto says the following.
“ I played around with this character I called "Ukina." She came from a story I wrote a long time ago for NewType magazine called Koto no Oni [The Ogre on the Desert Isle]. You take Ukina, give her shaggy, bobbed, wolf-like hair, and it's Rei. Really, I just played with her a bit -- with the way the eyes are drawn. The basic character is the same. Her character was locked in as translucent -- like a shadow, or the air. The kind of girl you can't touch. The girl you long for, but there is nothing about her that you can hold.

And no, there was many blue-haired-red-eyed-almost-emotionelss girls way before Rei and Ukina. Pic related - OC , do not steal.

>>10790062

A character is not their appearance. Not everyone is a vain fuck like you.

>>10790072

If you suck my cock I'll cum inside you, bitch.

>>10790068
if they look like shit on the outside they're probably shit on the inside etc

>>10790068
>Really, I just played with her a bit -- with the way the eyes are drawn. The basic character is the same.

Ok you won.

>>10790072
All ugly people have accrued bad karma in their previous lives or were made in that image by Yweh himself so that everybody else would know to hate such a repugnant being. You NEET have been branded, for you are truly a blight upon humanity

>>10790078

Good that you know your betters.

The only cliche i hate is the 'Rei Clone'

>>10790086
It's YHWH

There's one type of character i particularly desipise, it's the 池沼 type e.g. Yui Hirasawa,Tsukasa and 90% of KEY characters

>>10789939
Did you not read my reply? Characters exist as narrative devices in order to construct stories that explore themes and transmit ideas. Classic works are filled with archetypal characters because it's not the character or the story that ultimately matters, it's what the author is trying to say. Heroes and villains exist because the theme of good vs. evil has fascinated human culture for millennia.

If you want to hate something, hate the creator, don't hate the conventions. You may dislike a painting, but why hate the paint itself?

>>10789231
>As opposed to [...] say the opposite of what you mean
What else is left?

>>10790156
>Heroes and villains exist because the theme of good vs. evil has fascinated human culture for millennia

You aren't going to get praised for believable or interesting characters if one of your characters is basically Snidely Whiplash.

>>10790176
>believable or interesting characters
This is completely dependent on the narrative. The character archetype itself is just a framework to work with. Older stories are hardly filled with likable, interesting, or believable characters. In fact, they're exaggerated in order to drive the point home. I get the impression that a lot of people have forgotten the purpose of storytelling.

Flat characters serve a purpose by being carriers or agents of a message. Today, and especially in otaku culture, however, characters are enjoyed in and of themselves. They're "cliche" because everyone wants them to be that way, but the truth is storytelling has always been like this. Consider the "messiah" archetype. It's fucking everywhere and the story is always the same, but people still like it. How the story is told is just as important if not moreso than the story itself. A bad story is not the character's fault, but the creator's.

>>10790206
I hated Simon in the Lord of the Flies.

>>10790156
>Classic works are filled with archetypal characters because it's not the character or the story that ultimately matters, it's what the author is trying to say.

lol

>>10790215
I hated everyone in Lord of the Flies.

>>10790215
Yeah, I thought he was a bitch. On a related note, I actually don't like much Shakespeare because I find a lot of the characters grating.

>>10790217
You actually place story above theme? Stay pleb.

>>10790244
>Stay pleb.

Take your crossboard vernacular and get >>>/out/

>>10790258
You're trying a little too hard.

>>>/jp/

>>10790270

I don't think I stuttered. Get the fuck out of my board, crossie.

>>10790275
Suck my cock, dude.

>>10790244
>You actually place story above theme? Stay pleb.
You literally mean this, don't you?

>>10790311

It's someone from /v/. Yes.

>jani deletes the whole argument because he got OWNED too hard

LOL

>>10790311
No, I did not. I think a story should be taken holistically, otherwise we would just write what they want to say. But any critical reading of a text requires that we examine the core message or themes. Thus, characters and plot come secondary to the interrelationships or implied meanings. This meaning is what I'm stressing as the intent or purpose of storytelling/narrative.

My reply was a lazy retort to his noncontribution.

>>10790327

eXCUSE ME but i would like to REBUTT THE VERACITY of this CANTANKEROUS excrementous heap of an assertion!!! to begin with you are a fetid cock and i believe you also smell of asses!

>>10790417
f*qn epic

>>10789568

The problem with Eva is that it delivered its "socially relevant" messages through use of extraordinary characters in an extraordinary setting, with extraordinary circumstances, facing extraordinary issues and utilizing extraordinary means to overcome them.

It was all employed to draw the target audience in with things they like and are familiar with, but it backfires because the audience is enchanted by the grandiosity: the girls, the guy(s?), the mechs, the enemy, the history, the mythology, the politics, the geography, the symbolism, the DEEP, the WTF DID I JUST WATCH??? Even if they "get it", it doesn't mean they'll do anything. They'll just keep thinking and talking about and obsessing over Eva, and they'll want more of what they tasted.

>>10790417
holy fuck snot just shot out of me nose

>>10790494
>extraordinary characters in an extraordinary setting, with extraordinary circumstances, facing extraordinary issues and utilizing extraordinary means to overcome them.
It's a fairly familiar story told in a very interesting way. It's practically a mashup of otaku culture + crippling depression. The mythology is definitely interesting, but the thing that made me love NGE is how real it felt. I think it also clicked with a lot of (Japanese) people, but instead of stepping up, they regressed further.

I'll admit that the message went over my head until I read up on otaku. Anno's motifs and symbolism, Kabbalah notwithstanding, were very deliberate.

Why does this thread look like it was copied and pasted from /a/ or /v/?

>>10790589
I could put ten or fifteen indisputably /jp/ shitposts in it if it would make you feel more at home.

Guess.

>>10790594

I'd prefer if you stopped posting here, DDDD guy.

>>10790618
XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

>>10790576
>It's a fairly familiar story told in a very interesting way.

True. But let's compare it to, say, Tatami Galaxy. It also delivers a message that clicks with a lot of people in a very interesting fashion, but besides the style and time traveling device, everything else was pretty mundane. NHK was the same with a few liberties for comedic and storytelling purpose, though some do miss the point and want a cute girl to come to their door and "save them" from their terrible lives.

There's a certain "realness" to Eva, especially Shinji. But since the world and the characters is so unusual and otaku culture is escapist anyway, it's easy to fall in love with it all. Someone could definitely wish they were in Shinji's position, with their own Rei, Asuka, Misato, or Kaworu; piloting a robot and fighting aliens; being a hero. You can obsess over a more interesting world and prospects of a more interesting life. And it feels so "real" but in a good way--so near and dear. When one had this wonderful world, why deal with reality?

Even the message can be obsessed over. You can go on and on about how "deep" Eva is, but it won't amount to much if you don't do anything with it. You can learn and love everything about Christianity, but it doesn't make a Christian. Just an admirer, a fan. It requires belief and works to be one.

The viewer could take from it and join the real world but why, when you have given them this awesome fantasy one?

>>10790695
That makes sense. It's a case where the cure is also the poison. Even if people were able to relate, they failed to do anything about it. That said, I was moved enough to reevaluate my own life. On the other hand, I don't consider myself an otaku.

>>10790163
Modern tsundere

There are cliches that I don't get why they're cliches, particularly older ones.

A big one that bothers me is "impossible tasks". I don't get why that's such a recurring theme in mythology. Every country or culture seems to have at least one story where there's a big list of things a hero must do, but they're stupid things like "Find me an ox with wings!" or "Slay a dragon with only your teeth!"
Kaguya Hime, Scarborough Fair, Culhwch and Olwen, stories like that.

I don't get it. I can kind of get "man who catch fly with chopstick can accomplish anything" but just dishing out requests that are actually impossible isn't a challenge or suspenseful, regardless of whether the hero actually completes it.

Don't you just hate hipsters? Cause I do.

Always trying to be all "intellectual" and shit. Not keeping it real

>>10791456
Different cultural environment.The morals the social norms et.c.
Take The fifth Labour of Heracles as example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augeas<wbr>
In one of the versions he not just killed the guy who refused to honor the agreement but also killed his whole family along just because.
And was still worshiped as one of the greatest heroes ever.

>>10791441
This is getting confusing. Are you saying modern tsundere don't say the opposite of what they mean?

>>10793159
No one ever said that.

>>10793201
That's where the conversation was heading anon.
>if you take this element out then what else is left
>modern

Unrealistic personalities make my dick hard because I am able to dehumanize them more easily.

>>10796652
Gross dude.