/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Eat that, Umifags.

>>2891990
>>2891974
If you were to copy it from /a/ the least you could've done is copy it correctly.

Also this only proves that Ryukishi is taunting us to solve the mystery.

Ryukishi07 is Beatrice in disguise.

>>2891974
This has been discussed, you new here?

>>2891974
Well that explains the anime's approach.

>>2892000
I got rid of the accidental line breaks.

>>2891974
This just makes me want to solve the mysteries even more.

>the culprit is a witch
MYSTERY SOLVED

>>2892012
You made his ranting one big block of text, the way it's written is a bunch of singular lines, almost like... an epitaph?

Ryukishi07 is such a badass

He wrote this on his website as a little teaser to the game's mystery components. All he's doing is taunting the reader to solve the mystery.

Also nothing he said was in red.

lol game is real serious business

>>2892000
OP is from /a/? I guess that explains why he's posting Ryukishi's introduction to Umineko as if it's breaking news.

Since when did Ryukishi07 start sounding like Anno?

Haha. Nice try Ryukishi. Like I'll ever accept witches.

OP is from /a/.

>>2892404
Even if Ryukishi07 was talking seriously people would still say "WITCHES DON'T EXIST". No way to stop that horde now.

>>2892418
I blame/thank Ep. 3

EP3:

"At first I was planning to make EP3 more difficult, and the planned title was 'Land of the golden witch'. But I heard lots of players saying EP2 was too difficult, so I decided to make EP3 easier. It's 'Banquet of the golden witch'. That's why some support characters appeared in it. 'Banquet' revealed even some facts which had been planned to be revealed in answer arcs."

"There is only one truth in Rokkenjima. However, lots of parts of the story are blank, so the truth can't be seen. It's like a board we always see on TV shows. Some texts are written on it, but some parts of them are covered with the tapes, to hide true answers.
If something like '?' was written on the tapes, it wouldn't be bad too much. But in Umineko's case, fake things are written on them, as if they really happened. At the worst case, you can't even notice that it's a thing written on the tape.
Ever since EP1, some players have been saying that this story was written by the last observer, and is in the wine-bottle. I thought they were fine, but actually they were weaker in fantasy than I expected."

"Umineko has more hints than Higurashi, so I think players might not be surprised highly.
Recently I checked manga of EP1 and was surprised that it had so many hints. Some lines seemed to be almost spoilers(laugh)."

"I have cautioned that problems you should solve aren't only culprit and tricks, and all things are targets for speculations, from the beginning. I hope you think about everything.
By the way, I love to hide things doubly, because when we get an answer, we tend to stop thinking any more."

"Thinking about Beatrice's thoughts and the goal is an interesting approach to the future of the Umineko world. Some mysterious factors might be explained with it. And it might be a chance to catch her off-guard that Lambdadelta mentioned. Lambdadelta is angry at it, though."

"You regard Bernkastel and Lambdadelta as just fanservices? Or something more than fanservices? It's a delicate question. We can call it a case which shows how human's subjectiveness is unreliable.
I know there is a character named Bernkstel in Higurashi, but don't know a character named Lambdadelta. Why is she regarded as a character who appeared in Higurashi?
We humans tend to accept unknown things by recognising them as known things.
It can be a trap whom those who have known about Higurashi are caught in more easily. Players who haven't played Higurashi would think they were just two witches. It hasn't been confirmed that 'previous game' they mentioned is Higurashi."

"In the first place, why do the murders have to be warned? If the purpose of 'Beatrice' was only to kill them, it would be useless. Why warned? And why are the murders executed with the same way as the epitaph?
And the witch's letter even says she will stop the murder if someone solve the epitaph.
Probably 'Beatrice' has a 100% way to massacre all humans in the island. But she somehow keeps her success rate 99.99%. So Eva survived in EP3. Why does she keep it 99.99% although she can do it 100%?
What does she think?"

"In Umineko's case, 'culprit' can be considered as 'phenomena', not 'individual person'. It hasn't been confirmed that 'Beatrice' is one person, at all. 'She' can be phenomena, wills of multiple persons, or accidental occurrences.
If once you understand the structure of 'Beatrice', you will be able to solve most of that world. 'Why does Beatrice have to play the game with Battler?', 'What are they interchanging?' etc..."

EP4:

"EP4 has lots of hints. It's a large chunk of hint. Since it was the final question arc, I put them. So it became a large volume."

"The epitaph has already been solvable. But it needs some public informations.
For example, there is a riddle like this:
Q: Why do dragons sleep during the daytime?
A: They are waiting for the knight coming.
It's solvable, but you are required to know that 'night' and 'knight' have the same pronunciation. I think this riddle is fair since that knowledge is public.
If the epitaph required the knowledge that players couldn't get, like 'Kinzo's favorite food is curry', it would be unfair. But it isn't. You can get the key and solve the riddle.
However it's extremely difficult, because you have to suppose countless places as Kinzo's hometown."

"'Maria's magic has a dark-side too' is one of themes I wanted to write in question arcs. I think it's a big hint.
It's obvious that it was necessary for Beatrice to meet Maria, for being Beatrice. Maria was the essential factor for constructing 'Beatrice'."

"I'm putting players reactions into the story. The name 'Witch Hunt', some theories about the epitaph, and impressions about difficulty...
I want to make Umineko as playing with players on the real-time. When I was creating Higurashi, I couldn't do it well. So I made Umineko's system able to do it.
But 'Ange x Mammon' is just a coincidence(laugh). I was planning to give to Mammon a role as Ange's friend, so I controlled Mammon's turns. Then, players began to imagine about Mammon since she had few turns.
I didn't want to avoid my plans because of players' reactions, so I wrote it just as planned."

"This time I generously gave hints about Siesta Sisters. But I wonder if everyone thinks their design just came from Touhou Project. I love Udonge(laugh).
Anyway, I hope players speculate with many ways. Stories about Siesta Sisters are implying that they, the murderers or the agents of the murder, perhaps have Maria as the origin..."

"Gaap is weird. Does she love odd clothes? What a terrible costume."

"We worked hard to make the effect in Tea Perty. We aimed to make you feel you are fighting with Battler together even if you aren't interested in speculating.
But after the debugging, BT reported 'players might think small bombs are the answer since that Tea Party is extremely passionate.' So I hurriedly added some red texts in '???'. I wasn't planning to make Lambdadelta use red text at the beginning."

"It's a difficult job to isolate characters. In the situations like theirs, people usually gather at one place and never try to leave from there alone. I have to make some reasons why they still try to do it.
But it's an interesting job at the same time. I've made various puzzles, and personally I think the most well-done puzzle is in EP3. I don't want to say which case it means because it can be a spoiler, though."

"When adults aren't victims of the first twilight, the murders become difficult. Adults have known useful things about the mansion, and can even get guns. Children can't do it.
I think I should make more stories that adults don't die at first. Next story is an answer arc, so I should contain something new into it...
Oh, it connects to the topic of 'Land of the golden witch'."

"In the previous interview, I said I rejected 'Land of the golden witch', the ex-planned EP3. But after EP4 was released, players' thoughts have developed more than I expected. I sometimes find theories which make me want to meet the posters. So now I've become to want to make 'Land'.
Possibly I rebuild 'Land' and release it as EP5. Of course I still have made nothing about EP5, so it might be changed. But I want to do it now.
The difficulty of 'Land' is still very high. Players might believe that things written in it is the answer. It's like Watanagashi-hen without Meakashi-hen. 'Mion was the culprit. THE END.'"

"The fact Kinzo has already been dead before starting the game was planned to be revealed in EP5. But that theory became so popular after EP3. I thought it's redundant to keep it a secret, so revealed it in EP4."

"Closed rooms I made are classified to simple type. I made them mysteries which can be solved by one kind of keyword. I guess you can already answer to them, since EP4 gave you lots of hints.
I could make EP2's closed rooms well, but I personally think the best closed room is EP3's."

"I think Beatrice is easy with Battler, because she tries to talk to him. If she really had a strong will to accomplish the serial murder, she wouldn't play the game with Battler. Why is she easy? What does she want to do?
It's time to think about it, by turning the chessboard. When you finished EP1, 'the culprit' just seemed to want to kill everyone, so you couldn't find almost anything even if you turned the chessboard. But now it isn't.
I'm not mean too much, so you can find the outline of 'something' when you see the world-view of the story. For example, I haven't hidden settings such as 'George and Shannon aren't lovers, and they are cold-blooded people who try to get the wealth of Umishiromiya family'. You can get the answer from the world-view you have ever seen.........maybe. Hihihi."

"Some of mystery novels have lost the realities by excessively aiming to puzzle. I want to explain Umineko's absurd murders with humans' mind, humans' heart, and tricks which make sense.....oh no, I seem to be saying witches don't exist. As you can see, Umineko is a fantasy, so please enjoy super magic battles(laugh)."

"Is it time to make Jessica use Master Spark?"

*end*

>>2892609
>I love Udonge(laugh).
FUCK YEAR

>>2892606
"Is it time to make Jessica use Master Spark?"
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!1111111

>>2892624
Siesta 01000?

>>2892645
Nope, that's Siesta Useless only good for Sex Appeal.

About the OP's thing... when I first read that, I assumed it was a sort of in-character thing from within the game, and after being introduced to Beatrice I've kind of assumed that that passage is supposed to be her talking.

>It's obvious that it was necessary for Beatrice to meet Maria, for being Beatrice. Maria was the essential factor for constructing 'Beatrice'."

I think I'm trapped in a mindset where every new piece of information/way of looking at things makes me that much more convinced that Jessica is Beatrice, or at least "one of them"

Also, master spark, yes please, etc.

>>2892624
He have good taste.

>I want to see you surrender and say that while crying bitter tears.

>"The fact Kinzo has already been dead before starting the game was planned to be revealed in EP5. But that theory became so popular after EP3. I thought it's redundant to keep it a secret, so revealed it in EP4."

That's pretty cool.

Wasn't this game marketed as a being a mystery/detective sort of thing? Is OP even a credible source? What the hell is going on?

Someone please put these on the umineko wiki.

>>2892736
It's sarcasm. Playful sarcasm.

>>2892736
That's from the official site.

I finally solved the epitaph.
SHIT WAS SO CASH

>I want to see you surrender and say that while crying bitter tears.
Sorry RK, but you'd have to find a number larger than endless nine to make me surrender.

>I want to see you surrender and say that while crying bitter tears.
Sorry RK, but you'd have to find a number larger than endless nine to make me surrender.

>>2891974
I'm playing Umineko and the only reason I'm believing he human side even with all the witch lol magick is because believing in the witch would mean that Battler is a fool for not believing as well and I'd be a fag if I let battler down.

I'll follow the guy to hell and deny the devil if I had to.

A witch is showing you alternate dimensions that may or not be true. She certainly has supernatural powers to be able to do this. Why would you believe anything she says and how could you have faith in anything, even what you see in front of you? The red text is a gimmick that furthers the supernatural elements - it's not that Battler is logically figuring out that these things MUST or MUST NOT be true; it's a supernatural thing - unless you see everyone's words as text, with the truth written in red IRL.

>Umineko no Naku Koro ni is the worst kind of tale
Even the author admits it's shit.

>>2892693
I wrote a massively huge thread a while back that probably made alot of converts to the Jessica=Beatrice cause. I've shifted my thinking some since then, although that theory is still being revised. Jessica is a part of Beatrice, to be sure. I think Shannon was also a part of the plot in the beginning, but at some point she and Jessica's goals drifted apart.

As things stand, 'Beatrice' seems to have some problems with both Jessica and Shannon, since she tends to torment them about their relationships. 'Beatrice' seems like the mechanic by which either Jessica or Shannon takes control of the game and eliminates the other. I should point out that any game that Jessica lives far into the game Shannon dies early (1, 3) and the same in reverse for Shannon (2). In Ep 4 I think Jessica was the one in control, but it's hard to say since everything happened so damn fast. It may have been Shannon in control of the game that time around.

In Episode 2 especially, the letters shifted gears, and the first one seemed especially geared to mock Jessica, who was killed shortly after. And since we know Shannon wasn't really writing a will for Kinzo...

>>2893103
Now that I think about it, if Shannon was the one in control of Episode 4, that would fit with Episode 2, the only other one where 'Beatrice' appeared on the board openly (though not to Battler). Hmm..

>>2892792
Literally?

>>2893103
But how does Maria tie in? Ryukishi says she's a key element to creating "Beatrice".

ITT Ryukishi07 is a bro.

http://witch-hunt.com/letter.html

>>2893132
If the theory is still true, Maria can be included as a key piece simply because of her readiness to accept witches. Like it was said at one point in the VN, anyone could have put on the dress and told Maria she was Beatrice, and that Maria should show the letter at the dinner table.

The way Maria is key doesn't necessarily have to directly involve Beatrice, she may be the link to cause the adults to believe in a witch, whereas without her all the adults would see is either Shannon or Jessica (as this particular theory goes) in a dress.

>>2893146
So "Beatrice" is merely overwhelming doubt, Rokkenjima Syndrom?

>>2892792
I'm pretty sure I've solved what the key is, and the introductory line, but I haven't gone anywhere after that.

At least I've seen a parallel to the epitaph, but it might just be a red herring.

>>2893132
Jessica and Shannon probably originally came up with the idea of pretending to be Beatrice, and even came up with the idea of the Mariage Sorciere, which as we were told was originally meant to use magic to make everyone happy.

But at some point, things took a turn for the worse. Maria's abuse and neglect made her take a darker turn with her magic. Battler's 'sin' had some sort of effect on Jessica or Shannon, or maybe even both, which eventually made the two start coming up with some more sinister ideas of their own.

For example: Battler may have made some promise to Shannon (he's said himself she was his first crush) to get her off the island, sweep her away or somesuch. His failure to do so by leaving the family led to Shannon's relationship with George. And we know Eva would never approve of that... (hint- in both Episode 2 and 4, Eva and Hideyoshi die in the first twilight.)

>>2893132
Maria creates the illusion of Beatrice existence. What with her practically being Beatrice's personal messenger.

She probably was also the one who gave the "real" Beatrice all these crazy ideas of the occult too.

>>2893103

Mind posting a few points of that thread? I'm interested in your thoughts.

>>2893156
Though I haven't really detached myself from mystery person X (3rd Beatrice), I agree with the rest of your theory. I also think that in each episode, one of the adult(s) happens to also plan the murder of most of the members on the island, and the resulting night is both "Beatrice" and the killer killing everyone. They may or may not be working together at first, but it's pretty obvious only one comes out the victor in the end.

>>2893156
It may seem far fetched, but if the members of the Mariage Sorciere were confiding in one another their problems, things might have begun a downward spiral which led to both Jessica and Shannon setting plans in place to try and seize control of the family by force.

As things stand, Jessica is quite jealous of Shannon and her relationship, since she's been rejected. Add to that the stress of being groomed to be the next head (or marry the next head at least), and some escapist fantasy might not be too unrealistic. Combine that with Shannon's constant self-torment in the form of 'Beatrice' who keeps urging her on hoping to see her fail, and Maria's wide array of knowledge, which has turned to the darker arts, and let it simmer for several years, and it just might boil over.

Battler's return to Rokkenjima might just be the nail in the coffin, since that brings up all sorts of conflicting emotions for Shannon and Jessica, who were both close to him before he left.

>>in both Episode 2 and 4, Eva and Hideyoshi die in the first twilight.

And those very Episodes are also the only ones where Shannon DOESN'T die in the first twilight.
...well, damn.

Still, that might explain a connection for Eva and Hideyoshi's deaths in those games, I'm even more puzzled now about what connections there are regarding Rudolph. After all, he's the ONLY sibling who dies in the first twilight of every Episode but the one where all the servants were killed first. While his mentioning he might be killed in Episode 1 might mean he's killed the silence him regarding something, it's also possible that someone on the island, for some reason, just doesn't like him.
Either way, someone REALLY wants him dead.

>>2893189
I have to point out, however, that while Kanon survives the first twilight in Ep1, he dies in Ep3. The letters also stop after the first twilight, aside from one deviation- the code written on the door when George died.

I think Kanon was in the process of setting up the first twilight when the siblings, taking the letter from Beatrice seriously for the first time, decided to eliminate the servants to remove any collaborators with 'Beatrice' and protect the Ushiromiya's wealth from outsiders. It could have been any of the siblings or all of them- Krauss has been shown to like to call breaks in the discussion so everyone can 'cool their heads'. Someone could have killed off the servants at that point, including Kanon who they walked in on as he was tossing Kinzo into the furnace.

It is hard to say what influence if any Jessica had on the events of Episode 3. She might have been the one to lock the window after George jumped out. Hell, she may have even given him the idea. The identity of the killer is uncertain though, Eva is the only real suspect we have. Although I've got some good ideas about Hideyoshi.

>>2893274
If Kanon is the one burning Kinzo's corpse, then why is it that it isn't in the furnace in episode 2?

>>2893274
For that matter, all of the siblings are pretty suspect. If we assume Eva WASN'T the culprit in any of the killings besides Battler, we get some interesting conclusions. For example, Rudolph went out looking for Rosa and Maria alone, and came back saying 'OMG they're dead'. Even though Eva may have left Hideyoshi in the room, we don't know where she went. Rudolph could have just as easily killed Rosa and Maria when he found them.

When Kyrie and Rudolph took Hideyoshi to the mansion to look for food and confronted him, he might have realized Rudolph was playing him, since he knew Eva was actually checking on the gold. He got into a shootout with the two and killed them, but in their last moments one of them took a shot at Hideyoshi (read that scene again, he was shot but not by EVA) and he lost consciousness.

Krauss and Natsuhi might have killed George. Any reason could work, and they may have already known the code or been told by Jessica or Nanjo. On their way back however, someone ambushed them and somehow got a rope around both their throats to choke them to death. Eva, Nanjo, and by what we can presume by the cracks in the red, Hideyoshi were still alive.

Hats off to r07
This game is more immersive than any other game Ive played

I think I am going to have a nightmare from this game, and I usually make fun of faggots that cry in a VN. Like that kirakira, ymk, true remembrance bullshit. Only other game that got into my head was clannad. Ushio fuck yea.

>>2892418
Anyone giving up just because the original author says that solving the mystery is impossible is simply lacking determination.

>>2893311
At this point, the cousins, Eva and Nanjo go charging out to the mansion. George is found dead. Eva and Battler go off searching for the killer while Jessica and Nanjo head to the servants quarters to treat Jessica's burned eyes. Hideyoshi regains consciousness, and heads toward the servants quarters, where he finds Nanjo. Uncertain what was said at this point, but Hideyoshi might have come to the conclusion that Nanjo was helping someone hostile to Eva, and shot him. Jessica flees blindly to the parlor.

Some time after, Battler and Eva return to the parlor, where it is said they 'find Jessica'. Battler confronts Eva, and she shoots him dead. Jessica says and does nothing during this scene, leading me to strongly believe she was already dead. If Hideyoshi rumbled to Nanjo being part of the plot, he might have also realized Jessica was behind it, followed her to the parlor, and killed her. Then he left, maybe searching for Eva, and died at some point.

When Battler confronts Eva, she's also run out of suspects. George is dead, Hideyoshi is dead, everyone else is dead. But Battler is alive, and just by SOME STRANGE CHANCE, the door of the room where her son died has a code with Battler's birthday inside written on it. Battler may have tried to attack her, but probably she just snapped.

I'm pretty sure Maria and Rosa have something to do with it. Maria always survives until the end(except episode 3), and Rosa has never experiencd a death that could not be faked(again, except episode 3). But what really gets me is the scorpion charms. Why would Maria be carrying two of them? Even if she is studying magic, I doubt she has any reason at all to be carrying TWO of them around for no reason. Therefore, it was something obviously prepared ahead of time. I could expand on this some more, but I'm pretty tired.

>>2893369
By this theory, the only hard to explain deaths are Krauss and Natsuhi. Did Hideyoshi ambush them in revenge for his son? Or Nanjo, still trying to carry out the twilights?

I think Nanjo had the best opportunity to sneak out and stake the bodies of the dead, since he spent most of the time shut up in his room. He might have something in his bag he could choke 2 people to death with...

>>the code written on the door when George died.

I still have to wonder what the hell the angle was for that. We know they related to those letters that had been sent out prior to the murders, mailed to people at addresses that don't exist and sent by people DIDN'T send them, and the large number of lock boxes that were all apparently under one account, presumably one for each victim's next of kin.

What was the point of plastering those numbers in the mansion, though? The magic circles I could understand as a means of both identifying where the victims are while simultaneously unnerving the survivors and further push the notion that the killings are supernatural, but a seemingly random string of numbers that would have no meaning to anyone who didn't already know what they were?

Hell, even if they did know, or at least figured it out what they were, what good would it do them? You needed the contents of those envelopes to know what bank to go to, and be able to access the lock boxes. The most those numbers in the mansion would accomplish is if someone who saw them and made it off the island alive, received one of those letters, and realized that whoever sent it in the first place, created that bank account, and deposited all that money there was someone connected to the killings on the island.

...except, if they WERE connected to the killings, and they had all that money to hand out to all those people, then why hand it out at all?

>>2893374
Maria is a part of it to be certain. It should also be pointed out that the scorpion charms only came out in Ep1, where one was used to create a 'magic' alibi by making it appear that the killer couldn't enter Natsuhi's room.

Which makes me wonder if the charms weren't something planned ahead of time. Although that makes things really confusing, since George was the one to suggest that to Maria, but maybe that was just a lucky coincidence.

>>2893419
Well... one thing is certain, someone on the island knows about those numbers. At the time they were written, right after George died, Eva, Hideyoshi (probably), Krauss, Natsuhi, the other cousins, and Nanjo were alive.

Krauss MIGHT have been able to set up that much money (if we assume that there really were 20 lockboxes and all had the same amount, thats 2 BILLION yen.) I think that most likely Kinzo set those up ahead of time. Someone (Jessica?) got the dope on them before Kinzo died, changed the PIN to something personal, and mailed out those delayed letters with the keys.

My best guess is that Nanjo was told to write it when he was staking bodies. Maybe to try and jog Battler's memory.

>>2893419
Though the number string has the same amount of digits, I don't think the two are related. As you said, they might just be a significant number (or combination of numbers) for someone (like Battler when he said the first 4 are his birth date).

Assuming Jessica is Beatrice, and that date ties up with Battler and his sin, that may be reason enough for it to end up on that door. Though it seems a bit vague, she may have not even known Battler was going to discover the numbers unless she was the only one doing the killings.

Rokkenjima Syndrom.
If you don`t deny the witch you will start acting like a witch then kill yourself.

Rokkenjima Syndrome and small gods.

You heard it here first.

>>Though the number string has the same amount of digits, I don't think the two are related.

Right. The numbers painted on that door and the numbers to that bank account that was sent out in those letters just happen to be exactly the same by some nutty coincidence and are not connected in any sort of way. Got it.

>>2893300
He died before he got to that point in the plan. Honestly, Kinzo being tossed at the start of Ep3 was just to fill a 'sacrifice' slot since there were only 5 real victims. Kinzo's burning was used to fill in for a twilight in Episode 1 as well.

Honestly, it's been pointed out that the only episode both Krauss and Natsuhi BOTH die at the start is also the only one Kinzo doesn't burn. For the sake of this theory I'm gonna chalk it up to coincidence. If Krauss and Natsuhi are the culprits, why does one or the other usually die in the first twilight? Why does the other continue their plan despite the other being killed? This seems very strange.

For that matter, by Battler's theory, Kanon might have been killed by any of the siblings as they searched the chapel for the gold. The killer simply pretended to find the key to the next room in his pocked at the time the chapel was opened. Kanon could have carried out all of the other killings himself. He may have originally intended to fake his death, but fate intervened...

Didn't EP3 have a different letter signer?

In EP1 and 2, I think the letters were signed "Beatrice the Golden".
In EP3, it was signed "The Golden Witch, Beatrice"

>>2893625
Presumably, whoever killed Kanon checked the rest of the rooms and figured out what was going on. It is likely Kanon had Kinzo's ring on him. Even if Jessica wrote the other letters in Ep1 and the first in Ep2, Kinzo's ring may have been left with his body so as not to raise suspicions. Since Kanon was tossing Kinzo in early, he may have had the ring on him when he was killed...

>>2893651
By the same line of thought, Kanon may not have carried out the first twilight at all. Whoever killed the servants took Genji's key and discovered Kinzo was already dead. They took his ring, set up the closed room loop, and wrote a letter urging the others to focus on solving the epitaph. And to keep things in line with the epitaph, they tossed Kinzo in the boiler to hide the fact he was long dead. If Krauss or Natsuhi were the ones behind this, we can even remove the part where they don't know Kinzo is already dead.

>>2892606
>'Kinzo's favorite food is curry'

I've finally figured out Kinzo's true identity.

Let's see here...

It's all just a story, the author is to blame for it all.

There.

bump

>>2894191

>Kinzo is dead
>Ciel can't die

My head exploded.

Stop spamming your shitty board on the best site:
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>h ddgdlsnnn ndddf cnokgd k

>>2895239
That is, unfortunately, where you're wrong. Every single route involves SHIKI's death, so in every single route, Ciel's deathgrip on life is broken.

>>2895283
Fascinating.

I've been pondering what the relevance of 1129 is. I don't think it is the date of Battler's sin, since it was said his sin was related to Rokkenjima. And the family only goes to Rokkenjima in early October. It might be the date Asumu died, but it didn't seem to ring any bells with Battler.

A quick Google regarding November 29 didn't yield much, only 1 semi-relevant hit: Nov 29, 1890– The Meiji Constitution goes into effect in Japan and the first Diet convenes. This could be seen as the start of the Ushiromiya's real boom in prosperity?

It doesn't seem too likely though. And this is assuming that 1129 is meant to be a date at all...

>But in Umineko's case, fake things are written on them, as if they really happened. At the worst case, you can't even notice that it's a thing written on the tape.

Do not trust the narration.

Also Shannon is definitely one of the suspect.
Considering how she can delay the siesta sister attacks.

>>2895290

It could be 11:29.

Half before noon or midnight on Battler's birthday?

>"Is it time to make Jessica use Master Spark?"

Ep5 is gonna be awesome

>>2895309
See
>>2893103
>>2893156
>>2893189


There is alot more evidence working against Shannon than just delaying the Siesta's attacks. Any game where Shannon lives through the first twilight, Eva and Hideyoshi die instead. Further, if Shannon lives through the first twilight, Jessica dies on the second.

>>2895290
Battlers sin was committed 5 years ago
Ange was born 5 years ago

>>2895283
Roa doesn't die in Kohaku's ending. And in the other far side stories Shiki never discovers that he can see the dots, so he might have survived there as well.

>>2895377

>>2895377
how old was Battler then? 13?

Just to throw this out there, an earlier post made mention of the relationship of Shannon and Jessica surviving the murders, and Beatrice being the means which they commit them.


The servants on the Island acknowledge two masters. "Kinzo" and "Beatrice"

Battler says that for the first Twilight the assembled group acknowledges someone else as Kinzo. As though it's a title.

What is Beatrice is a title as well?

Could it be that "Kinzo" and "Beatrice" are just two titles for the head of the Ushiromiya family, One for female and one for male?

This explains how there can be a Beatrice who gives Kinzo gold, a Beatrice that lived in the second mansion, and a Beatrice that commits the murders.

They're all "Beatrice" because they inherit the title.

>>2895371
And conversely, if Shannon dies on the first twilight, Jessica lives until the end. If Jessica lives, Natsuhi will also live till near the end.

And regardless of which of them seemingly takes control of the game, Rudolph dies at the start, except in Episode 3 where things get derailed by all the servants being killed and the parents barricade themselves in the guesthouse.

>>2895420
Hmm, I'm kind of suspicious about 'Kinzo' OR 'Beatrice' being an inherited title. Although it is possible.

I should point out that even though the servants regard Beatrice as a second master of the household, the Beatrice that Battler met spoke of herself as 'the Ushiromiya family's furniture'. And talked, there and over the phone, all about how Kinzo took her by force etc.

>>2895469
If we take that scene as Jessica acting as 'Beatrice' then it might have been her trying to convince Battler that he was talking to Beatrice instead.

If he walks out with the mentality "I'm going to meet 'someone' then there's always the chance he'll look up and recognize the blond person standing on the balcony as Jessica. But if he walks out thinking "I'm going to meet Beatrice" his mental image of her from the portrait would take over.

>>2895516
Going by my line of thinking, that both Jessica and Shannon are acting out Beatrice depending on the circumstances, both of the games where Shannon lived through the first twilight were also the games where 'Beatrice' appeared on the game board (2 and 4). Battler didn't meet Beato in Episode 2, but quite a few other people met her separately and corroborated each others stories.

Shannon was brought in to work for the Ushiromiyas when she was six. Normally, servants from the Fukuin House don't get hired till they graduate from middle school. So what made Shannon special? Did Kinzo have something else in mind when he took her in?... If we assume that the Beatrice Battler met was actually Shannon in disguise, and listen to what she said, things could fall into place.

Also anyone got any clue on epitah?
I tried really hard but no clue.

>>2895558
From another perspective this adds another layer to the theory that Kinzo had Jessica taken from one of Rudolfs baby mamas and put her into the family closer to home.

Though how he would know what Jessica would grow up to look like is beyond me.

>>2895558
>the games where Shannon lived through the first twilight were also the games where 'Beatrice' appeared on the game board (2 and 4)

Weren't those also the games where Kanon's body wasn't found?

>>2895604
The same goes for Jessica(she survives games where Beatrice Game Piece appears).

>>2895580
It doesn't really have to change that theory any. In Episodes 1 and 3 Jessica would be acting out her own schemes as 'Beatrice'.

But all things considered, it should be pretty clear that there is not one single person who is 'Beatrice'. But if both Jessica and Shannon are taking up the name, things seem to clear up a bit.

The question now becomes 'What is Battler's sin?' If it was what started the snowballing effect that led to this incident, it must have affected both Jessica and Shannon somehow...

>>2895636
Well i do not think it will be something cliche as love promise to Shannon/Jessica,however Battler implies that he never looked for serious relationship and his test was to write "____" name.If we take that "Beatrice" at balcony was Jessica/Shannon maybe they wanted to give him last chance of rembering that promise

>>2895675
It's cliche, but there's always the line about Battler promising Shannon that he'd come get her on his white horse.

>>2895619
Uh, don't you mean the opposite? Any time piece Beato appears on the board Jessica dies on the second twilight.

If Jessica lives (Ep 1 and 3) piece Beato never appears, unless you count the end of Episode 1, but we really have no idea what was happening there.

>>2895604
You are indeed also correct. I'm not sure what the significance is, unless you're taking it to mean Shannon=Kanon. That doesn't feel right to me though. What would the point be? One or the other tends to die in the first twilight. If one were dead from the start (since the Shannon=Kanon theory pretty much requires this) why would Sh/Kanon change up which they played as? Still, Kanon vanishes every time Shannon survives the first twilight, hmm..

>>2895445
Episode 3 is special because Eva fucked up everything and end up surviving.

The real question would be if Shannon or Jessica were the main murderer for their respective episode. Why did they fail? Also why would they send out the money (money to buy over their accomplice)?

Do you think they are the mastermind or do you think one of the parent are the real mastermind but their accomplice backstab them on the first twilight.

>>2895675
>>2895683

Well. We have had it hammered into our brains by Episode 2 that 'Without love it cannot be seen'. Beato is also pretty obviously jealous at how happy Shannon is with George. If Battler made some offhanded promise to Shannon to sweep her away, making Jessica jealous... And then he leaves the family, crushing Shannon's hopes too. Because Battler isn't there to support her anymore, George steps up to the plate and starts helping her in little ways. The two become close, to Jessica's further envy, since she's been shot down by all her prospects.

But Eva is obviously a major obstacle for Shannon, and further, she has doubts about her own feelings since she already made a promise with Battler. And then Battler comes back after 6 years, further muddling things up...

>>2892606
>>Just as Planned

lol

>>2895445
Oh, that could be really simple. Rudolph is Shannon's father, and she really hates him for putting her in an orphanage.

>>2895687
>Still, Kanon vanishes every time Shannon survives the first twilight, hmm..
I'm not sure about EP2, but I think it's possible that Shannon's corpse is actually Kanon.
Shannon would then be free to do her Beatrice act.

>>2895757
She seems pretty content though.

Especially with George around, What kind of a motivation is "I am pretty happy but I could have been happier so I'll kill you and your entire family including the person I love."

>>2895814
But in Ep 1, Kanon lived for some time. And all things considered, he probably went on to fake his death with Nanjo's help(again? lol). I mean, there aren't alot of other options for him in Episode 1 short of him dying of old age. Since his 'death' wasn't an accident, wasn't suicide, and everyone, alive and dead, was given an alibi with the red. And Beato refused to say in red that his death was a homicide. And SOMEBODY other than Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa killed the 3 of them. I'm pretty solidly behind the idea that Kanon never really died at all.

you know when Beato counted up all the dead in red?

wouldn't that mean that they were dead at the moment she said it and not when you "saw" them die?

But doesn't Jessica also survive in episode 2? When Beatrice was telling Battler how many people were in that room, she named Jessica. She said Jessica was a corpse, but that part of her sentence wasn't in red. Doesn't this leave the possibility she faked her death?

>>2895469
Except it's said like 203974023 times that 'Beatrice' is an inherited name for the new 'Golden Witch.'
Virgilia WAS Beatrice. Beato is Beatrice. EVA-Beatrice is Beato's successor, and ANGE-Beatrice is the Beatrice of the future.
So Virgilia was Kinzo's wife, Beato was his lover, Eva is the head after Kinzo dies and Ange is the head after Eva dies.

Problem of 'Beatrice' being a title or not in the family solved.

My issue with the whole Kanon=Shannon theory is that it falls apart at even the most basic questioning. Which is alive and which is dead? Why do they need to fake their death in some games and not in others? Why did one kill the other? And when? Why do George or Jessica not notice?

I have yet to really see anything approaching a clear answer for these questions. Or even a plausible theory that covers them. I'm pretty sure that the whole theory is a red herring Ryukishi07 put in to confuse us with bad ideas.

>>2895857
I meant Episode 2 and 4. They fulfill the conditions of Kanon disappearing and Shannon surviving the First Twilight.

>>2895899
I refuse to explain.

>>2895898
well you never hear who is the mother of the siblings
also you're never told who is Marias father is

>>2895925
Then you are incompetent.

>>2895939
So it could easily be Virgilia, right?
Plus, didn't Battler say that Kumasawa was like a 'grandmotherly' figure? If she was the 'vessel' for Virgilia then that would make some sense.

>>2895939
wait were you told where Marias father went?

>>2895899
Jessica and Shannon are working together.
They killed Kanon in Jessica's room a little before the game started.
They use Kanon's body to create an alibi when the needs come.
They plan a huge mass murder/suicide ritual and aren't afraid of killing themselves for it.

Hey, when Maria was at the dinner table did she ever say that she was given the letter THAT day? It just said 'Beatrice' gave it too her. Not necessarily it had been given to her "today and in the courtyard by 'Beatrice'" but could have been "last year in the courtyard by 'Beatrice'".

>>2892593
>At first I was planning to make EP3 more difficult, and the planned title was 'Land of the golden witch'. But I heard lots of players saying EP2 was too difficult, so I decided to make EP3 easier.
>easier

EEEEH? EASY MODO?!

>>2895952
Not specifically, but it's explained he kind of up and left in Ep4

>>2895953
Okay, we've got plausible murderers.

All that remains is motive.

The motive would need to be someone pretty fucking spectacular to make them murder most everyone they know.

>>2892606
>>2892606
>>2892606
>>2892606
>>2892606
>>2892606
ANYBODY WHAT IS 'river' IN ROMAJI? Is there any similar sounding words?

>>2896009
They're lesbians. Shannon knows that George wants to propose to her, and she knows as a servant she can't say no to him, so she and Jessica kill him and everyone else so they can run off together.

Do you want serious brain damage? If not, stop hanging here like a chanturd and instead bookmark the best site on the Web:

▓▓▓▓▒▓▓▒▒▓▒▓▓▓▒▓▓▒▒▓
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▓▓▓▒▓▓▓▒▓▒▓▒▓▒▒▓▒▒▒▒
>h ddgdls

>>2896012
In English it could be interpreted as 'steam' but the only similar sounding word I can think of for 'stream' is 'streamers' which could be used as symbolism for the banquet or a rope for hanging.

>>2896034
Er... Just thjought of a better word for the rope. Noose.

>>2896017
They want Battler alive. To have a wincest threesome.

Jessica is Rudolf's and Asumu's daughter.
Shannon is Rudolf's daughter.
Battler is Rudolf's son.

so what was the meaning behind that shrine?
Shannon destroyed the mirror and "set Beatrice free"

>>2896074
To accomplish this, they must sacrifice 13 people. Kanon and Kinzo don't count, they are already dead.
WORLDENDDOMINATOR MANUALLY

>>2895891
It does seem strange Beato describes Jessica as a corpse in red one sentence, and then not in red the next. That line, in the original Japanese, was literally read 'Jessica's dead body'. I'm pretty sure she was dead. Beato was using the red oddly for most of Episode 2 for some reason though.

>>2896017
This is the truth, you all know it to be true.

>>2896034
Romaji is not interpretation.

The word for river is either ookawa, kawa, or taiga.

>>2896082
Sign of schizophrenia maybe.
The Uroshimiya's bloodline could suffer from this, that would explain Kinzo, Maria or Eva behavior.
Maybe Shannon and Jessica really believe that they are witches after playing at this for years, maybe they really believe that everything is a ritual to create real magic.

>>2896091
Awesome, well found.
Jessica is now my number 1 most suspicious character.

>>2896074
So, who was (x)generation Beatrice's child? Battler, Jessica, or Shannon/Kanon?

>>2896115
All three.

>>2896115

Considering physical traits it'd be Jessica, right?

Battler even goes out of his way to describe Beatrices portrait as seeming like a foreigner.

...though if I remember correctly he also mentions that it looked like his Grandmother had died her hair blond in her earlier days.

>>2896115
Natsuhi can't have a child for 12 years.
Eva comes with George and wants to make him the heir, she almost succeed.
BUT WAIT Natsuhi finally gets pregnant, just at the right time.
And just when Rudolf is awaiting 2 children.
What a coincidence.

>>2896091
Yeah, she was alive at the moment. Beatrice uses incomplete red, too...

>>2896123
Ange was the last one and she didn't really have any physical traits

>>2896115
so must Beatrice be a woman? or is Beatrice called Goldsmith if it's a male?

>>2896135
>(x)generation Beatrice's child?

I'm just saying if we look at the Portrait as what Beatrice really looked like then Jessica has the closest resemblance.

Jessica and Shannon are sisters. Battler is their brother. Beatrice isn't "one individual woman", because she is both Jessica and Shannon AT THE SAME TIME. Beatrice tries to make Battler her ally. In other words the girls want all three siblings to rule Rokkenjima. Fuck yeah.

>>2896143
just saying that just because she looks somewhat alike doesn't make her that more suspicious though >>2896091 makes her

I've been cataloging alot of the red as well as scenes I consider significant.

Jessica has her own suspicious traits, but Shannon is much higher on my list.

>>2896155

>>2896160

As was said, Shannon is the one who remembers those days best...

Let us talk about Ange and how the hell she met battler.

>>2896164

If it's Jessica, then if someone like Rudolph is the father, why would have give away a kid to Krauss? For financial benefit, of course. But, then, if they had some kind of deal, then why would Rudolph attempt to rally the other siblings to fuck Krauss' shit over?

If it's Shannon, then that explains a lot. The entire orphanage could be for Rudolph's illicit children, for all we know. Shannon/Kanon are the same person, Rudolph got seduced by Beatrice somehow and just wrote it off, then years later, OFFSPRING return to the mansion.

If it's Battler, then that explains why Rudolph pretty much doesn't give a fuck about him, in the long run. Battler and Meta-Beatrice have pretty similar traits, as far as being utterly childish. Beatrice doesn't give a shit about responsibilities, and neither does Battler.

If two children of Beatrice, Shannon/Kanon and Battler, are involved, then Shannon could hate Battler for being able to live a better life and for not caring about finding out the truth. That's a pretty good sin, right there.

>>2896170

Dun dun dun.

It seems someone remembers Battler's specialty from back then...

>>2896172
>>But, then, if they had some kind of deal, then why would Rudolph attempt to rally the other siblings to fuck Krauss' shit over?
Because he can't really say it out loud.
How would he say I SOLD MY CHILD TO MY BROTHER, OH AND I ALSO STOLE THE CHILD OF MY MISTRESS AND TOLD HER HE DIED.

Both him and Krauss can't say anything, he can't use it as a bargain chip.

>>2896190
You'd think both of them would be amenable to somehow fucking over Eva and Rosa together, though, since Krauss and Rudolph would be in the long haul not to have that ever come out.

>>2896172
>But, then, if they had some kind of deal, then why would Rudolph attempt to rally the other siblings to fuck Krauss' shit over?


He needs money.

The arrangement between them is one of mutual silence I'd assume. Krauss can't speak up about it because he loses his heir and his Daughter will dislike him even more than she already does.

If Rudolf speaks up, it weakens his bargaining position amongst the other siblings. Why should they trust him if he kept such a thing from them?

>>2896201
They may have made a deal before but it doesn't mean that they are friends or that they can work together now.
They don't talk about it because they know they would both be fucked if the truth would come out, but that doesn't that they can't argue on other subjects.

Shit.
I think when Beatrice said that Battler died was not really Battler's Body dying but his personality. I also think that Rudolph allowed this so that Battler could become the next head.

>>2896201
lets look at this from a strategy perspective.


Krauss has the best position, he's the heir, the manager of the assets, all of that good stuff.

Any relationship between Rudolf and Krauss will not be one of equality. Krauss will be in control.

If Rudolf wants his fair share, he needs to throw in with his Equals.

Even simpler than that, Siding with Krauss means 2v2. Siding with Eva and Rosa means 3v1.

>>2896172
>why would have give away a kid to Krauss

probably something like "You'll get xx% of the inheritance if you do"
since of he didn't do it, Eva and George would take Krauss position and Rudolph wouldn't get anything

>>2896172
1) The deal to give Jessica to Krauss was probably Kinzo's doing. In all honesty, Rudolph seems to care about Battler quite a bit, going by what Battler said in Ep4. He kept his mouth shut because he wanted to protect his family's happiness. When Asumu died he married Kyrie, Battler's real mother, right away, but never had a good chance to tell Battler and Kyrie the truth of things. Battler was torn up over Asumu's death and Kyrie probably wouldn't take things too gracefully either. Rudolph rallied the siblings because he wanted to get the money he needed without exposing unpleasant truths.

2) Rudolph seduced by Beatrice? Which one? The dead one or the long dead one? And Shannon has been working for Kinzo for a long time.

3) What the figgedy fuck are you talking about.

4) What does that have to do with 6 years ago? Shannon has been working for Kinzo for TEN (also related to 2). Unless Battler's mom dying and him running off made Shannon... jealous of how lucky he is? What.

>>2896237
>But, then, if they had some kind of deal, then why would Rudolph attempt to rally the other siblings to fuck Krauss' shit over?


"I'm angry because you gave up the happiness I never got the chance to have" might be a better one.

>>2896170
Oh yeah, and

Since there are theories pointing Nanjo as a culprit, I think that Nanjo always tells Kinzo and everybody else that he only has 3 months to live because they want him to Start the Resurrection of Beatrice. Allowing the Culprit to insanely massacre everyone.

>>2896251
when was that again?

"Beatrice" is the group of serial murders that were on the island and im 99 % sure that Kinzo was one of them.
At least thats what i believe.........FUCK never a novel/book made my head hurt so much

>>2896279
>Kinzo

But he's dead already.

>>2896284
That's why WAS

>>2896242
That part at least, does make some sense. I'm really, REALLY dubious about the children from the Fukuin house, and Shannon, being Rudolph's children.

Jessica being handed over to Krauss sounds like Kinzo's handiwork. The man made up his own rules as he went along. For all we know, Krauss never had any idea where Kinzo got the kid from. Which could rule out any chance of an alliance between him and Rudolph. And I don't see Rudolph as being so emotionally detached. The situation with Kyrie makes him look like a player but for all we know it started and ended with Kyrie and Asumu.

Ryukushi is Beatoriche.

>>2896237
Rudolph apparently has gone after everything female for a long time. The idea that he might have hit it up (x)generation Beatrice at some point in his youth isn't inconceivable.

Don't know, just speculating. Taking everything into consideration is hard, especially when the premise of the game is a lot of shit that's said we shouldn't exactly trust unless game Battler explicitly heard it himself.

And what Battler thinks of his family isn't necessarily what's really going on. The thing he ran away for may have ended up being *good* for Rudolph, since he wouldn't have to deal with Battler's actual parentage cropping up if Battler decided to throw away his lineage. Rudolph and Kyrie could end up being really, really unpleasant people.

>>2896277
Episode 4. When Battler got the phone call from 'Beatrice'.

inb4 story resets and the culprit before killing anyone

>>2896300
We're talking about the Beatrice that fell down the cliff right?

How old is he compared to Rosa?

>>2896316
Don't know the exact ages, but Rosa is the youngest. Rudolph the second youngest.

Don't know if that Beatrice had a child, either, or when, specifically. No clue.

Kinzo wouldn't have not hit it.

You know, assuming that Jessica was born to Asumu and given to Krauss, that doesn't guarantee she's actually Rudolph's daughter.

As Kyrie put it, Rudolph was always loyal to her, but Asumu shrewdly seduced him and got pregnant before Kyrie did, forcing Rudolph to marry her out of obligation. But what if Asumu knew she was already pregnant to begin with, and just got Rudolph in the sack to tie the kid onto him?

Yeah, this is an out of left field addition to a theory that is already reaching. But it might explain why Jessica looks so different from the rest of the family, and doesn't really resemble any of the adults at all (Battler and Ange definitely look like siblings, and not halves. George looks and acts like his dad too, and presumably shares Eva's martial skills.)

>>2896347
Also explains the asthma, if it's genetic, since Natsuhi seems to be fine except for her headache moe.

And Jessica definitely doesn't have any headache moe.

>>2896251
>>2896170
>>2896164
>>2896155

Jesus FUCKING Christ
everything fits so perfectly!!!!
Shannon is talking on the phone!!

>>2896325
Rosa was in middle school the year the Beatrice she met died. Beatrice was still alive in '67 (the conversation Ronove confirmed in red), and Battler and Jessica were born in 1968 since they are 18 in '86. Rosa is quite the bit younger than Rudolph.

>>2896251
>>2896170
>>2896164
>>2896160
>>2896155

Well fuck me...
Awesome job.
Now this is some heavy proof.

Shannon = Beatrice.

Okay. So what now?

>>2896155
About not remembering 6 years ago.

Jessica "Should i feel hurt?"

Shannon "I remember clearly as it was yesetrday..."

George DOES NOT REMEMBER ANYTHING SPECIAL

Jessica and Shannon MUST have some connection with Battler's sin.

>>2896399
Kanon never existed

>>2896399
Shannon+Jessica+Maria=Beatrice

I think

>>2896399
>>2896385

Jessica is the one who brought that conversation up so she could be Beatrice too.
Or they are working together, that conversation was their way to corner Battler to see if he could remember anything.

>>2896399
Well, the killings in Episode 4 could have been carried out by various means. If we assume that the prisoners weren't really in Kuwadorian at all, their deaths could have happened in reverse order from what we saw. Nanjo died running toward the well, the last in Kyrie's group to die other than Shannon herself.

After Shannon confronted Battler from the balcony, she went to the well. There, with a long rope and a heavy rock, she tied the rock to the stock of the gun, dropped the rock through the grate over the well, and laid a stake next to herself. After she shot herself in the head, the rock dragged the gun down into the well, removing the only weapon (and evidence) from Battler's reach.

Battler was kept busy by having him go retrieve the keys from in front of the chapel.

>>2896426
That doesn't make any sense. Look at Beatrice's reaction to Episode 4, to simply "Battler doesn't remember." Now look at both Jessica and Shannon's reactions in Episode 3 to a much stronger, "Battler doesn't remember, yells that he didn't mean any of that stupid crap, and just wants to forget it all."

Does that make any sense to you that the same person would laugh off the latter and then be so stricken that they freeze the entire game board forever in the former? That scene was a device to tell us about how Battler was six years ago. SOMEONE has to remember it, just by nature of the scene. I wouldn't read too much into it, especially since the person on the phone seems to presume Battler will still act as he did six years ago, which implies they haven't had contact in six years and don't know Battler cut that shit out a long time ago.

>>2896441
>After Shannon confronted Battler from the balcony, she went to the well. There, with a long rope and a heavy rock, she tied the rock to the stock of the gun, dropped the rock through the grate over the well, and laid a stake next to herself. After she shot herself in the head, the rock dragged the gun down into the well, removing the only weapon (and evidence) from Battler's reach.

.....Why..?

>>2896443
Or they could act in that scene, raging inside but laughing it off outside.
The culprit(s) would have to be a pretty good actor no matter what.

>>2896426
>>2896414
I agree.
IIRC Jessica really was the one who started "Remember something about 6 years ago?".Now if we add pieces togather(especially Battler's phone call from "Beatrice") we can assume they both(Jessica and Shannon) somewhat in this whole mess.However i still do not fully think that Shannon=Kanon.It is just unreasonable that George didn't notice anything.

Oh god that is quite clever, I wouldn't be suprised if this were right

>>2896443
But Battler hasn't really cut it out. He even says something like that to Maria right after that conversation. <See you again.> or something like that. And uh, NOBODY in the family has seen Battler for the last 6 years. So they are all equally suspect. Some just more than others (*cough* Shannon *cough*)

>>2896347
>assuming that Jessica was born to Asumu
I haven't read the whole thread, but how could that be? We only know about Asumu getting pregnant once, and that she gave birth to Battler (said in red), only not "our" Battler. Or are you implying that other Battler was a girl?

>>2896447
'Beatrice' had spent the whole game making everyone call Battler one after another and spin magic stories. When 'Beatrice' left the game board, she made sure to remove any chance of Battler seeing through her illusion...

After seeing this "fake deaths" theory. I guess Kinzo wasn't dead at all. Regarding the fact that not all Red states the truth.

>>2896426
So, let's recap:

Shannon = Kanon
Shannon and Jessica are "Beatrice" in the actual game.
Both of them have some interest in Battler.
If we believe that Kanon and Jessica are a thing, then either Shannon is actually a male with good padding, or a female with good binding. Possibly hetero, homo, or bi.
If one or both of them have interest in Battler, then there could be a falling out between them on the board, in which one kills the other in an unplanned confrontation.
This could explain the call that Jessica made in which she said Beatrice and magic were "real." She was killed by Shannon, and in a delusional last state, was basically living out the fantasy. She knew how she would die because she was a part of planning the script.

The odds of Shannon or Jessica somehow being (x)generation descendant of Beatrice are not specified. The fact that meta Beatrice is an actual living memory that's somehow involved in all of this specifies some relationship, if only for plot reasons.

Seeing as Battler was chosen as the one to take part in the meta game, he must have some relation to meta Beatrice, unless we're just going to speculate that his mere unwillingness to accept witches in the first game precipitated all the meta-game that followed.

Which it could've.

>>2896463
Shannon and Jessica both interact with Battler on October 4 and spend a lot of time with him. They know how he is now. Neither of them would think that he would "normally" respond with stupid English, they would know he doesn't.

>>2896464
'Battler' is a pretty gender neutral name, even if in English it could have masculine undertones. And the Kanji for 'Battler' can also be read 'Sento' (masculine) or 'Senri' (feminine)

Battler is the culprit. Remember when in Umineko characters introduce themselves it's always true. Now remember how Bern said she's the most cruel witch in the world.

>>2896473
Red states the truth. This is the only true thing in the meta game that cannot be turned over.

The thing with red is that the "truth" is a relative existence. You can mislead. Beatrice says "There's not more than 18 people on the island." This is true. In fact, there's not more than 17. Therefore, there ISN'T more than 18 people on the island.

>>2896464
Battler is not Asumu's child, but he IS a grandchild of Kinzo.

Stated in red.

>>2896441
If we assume that the prisoners weren't really in Kuwadorian at all, their deaths could have happened in reverse order from what we saw.
In fatc it's even possible everybody was alive and just playing along some hypothetical prank set up by the murderer(s?) when "Beatrice" tested Battler and that she only killed everyone once he'd failed.

>>2896481
I think "Battler is not the culprit." was said in red, too.

Which Battler is not the culprit? That's in question, but I think it's the Battler that we see through his viewpoint.

>>2896476
In Episode 4, everyone is dead before October 4 even ends.

>then either Shannon is actually a male with good padding, or a female with good binding.

Jessica stops Battler from touching Shannon's chest. Suspicious.

>>2896492
Uh, yeah, that doesn't change anything, since the killings start late at night. Jessica and Shannon would have familiarized themselves with present-Battler as they would have in any other game.

>>2896493
But Shannon was rubbing her 'boobs' all over George's arms as they carried Maria back to the guesthouse. Or does George actually know the truth....? Ick

>>2896490
The question is also WHEN isn't he the culprit? Always or in some instances?

>>2896476
I agree only Jessica and Shannon know this "Engrish" reference to Battler.And everything after he picked up the phone is forced that he remember events from 6 years ago.
Gentleman this(even if shit) proof we are getting somewhere.

>>2896484
>Battler is not Asumu's child, but he IS a grandchild of Kinzo
Cool bro, but has nothing to do with what I asked about.

The Battler we know is not Asumu's child, but it's still stated in red that Asumu gave birth to a child named Ushiromiya Battler, which I find hard to reconcile with the hypothesis this child would have become Jessica on the basis Battler's a fucking stupid name for a girl.

>>2896493
Meanwhile, Kanon avoids people and never lets them get close. He's constantly busy and refuses to chat with Battler for any length. Could go either way.

If we say that everything that happens with Jessica and Kanon is a lie if it's off the island, then Kanon could easily be a woman. "He" is an alternate persona, is on the island to fuck with the numbers, and can be said to be one of the "17." Meaning there might be another person, if you can prove that Shannon = Kanon.

>Red states the truth

After seeing this>>2896091 , someone is lying.

>>2896503
Fake boobs.small bombs inside

>>2896518
Omission and misleading are not the same as lying, no matter what your mother told you.

Nuances of language allow you to say something that is the truth, but can be misunderstood by the person hearing it. Japanese, especially.

And Battler just doesn't fucking think about things before accepting them. Which is why he almost fucked up with Beatrice trying to disallow him from playing for not being "Asumu's son", when he STILL had the correct qualifications for being a grandchild of Kinzo named "Battler," regardless of his actual parents.

>>2896516
Then who the Beatrice on the balcony in Episode 4? Would Battler mistake any of the 17 for someone else and did that encounter actually happen? (If you disregard that everything game piece Battler sees is true).

>>2896485
True. They'd have to hustle their asses off though. And Battler found George dead, and saw Gohda and Kumasawa hung before be met Beatrice. But as things stand, we only have 1 statement in red regarding this. Pic related. This confirms Kanon died first among Kyrie and co, and that 8 people died before him. And that there were 5 people in Kyrie's group. This seems to shoot a hole in the Shannon/Kanon theory.

>>2896503
George is actually GOLDSMITH

>>2896516
Then who is the Beatrice on the balcony in Episode 4? Would Battler mistake any of the 17 for someone else and did that encounter actually happen? (If you disregard that everything game piece Battler sees is true).

>>2896536
Unless "Shannon/Kanon" are separate personalities, such as a real psychosis.

"Kanon" could've permanently died for being exposed. Something went wrong and the secret was let out. Therefore, only "Shannon" existed, after that, perhaps if someone who found out the truth managed to escape the scene, then die afterward.

Wordplay and fiction are wonderful things.

>>2896516
Then who is the Beatrice on the balcony in Episode 4? Would Battler mistake any of the 17 for someone else and did that encounter actually happen? (If you disregard that everything game piece Battler sees is true).

>>2896492
>In Episode 4, everyone is dead before October 4 even ends.
That actually isn't confirmed. Battler only discovers the six first twilight victims and Maria during the night some unspecified amount of time after his test, everything else is during the next day.

>>2896536

It only proves that there is a 5th unidentified person with them.

Shannon=Kanon

>>2896545
So Shannon = Kanon = Beatrice. How delightfully insane.

So are the other servants and Jessica's family aware Shannon is off her goddamn rocker and are just playing along? Or was there a real Kanon, Shannon killed him, took over his identity, and then later dissolved said identity?

>>2896548
Balcony is 2 floors above.
Jessica with her hair made like Beato and in dress would be easily mistaken for her.
Also there was FUCKING TYPHOON outside so rain also affects your visibilty.

>>2896512
>Asumu gave birth to a child named Ushiromiya Battler, which I find hard to reconcile with the hypothesis this child would have become Jessica on the basis Battler's a fucking stupid name for a girl
"Child"'s a gender-neutral word, what it also a gender-neutral in japanese? If not here's an opportunity to do some theory pruning

>>2896566
When the Japanese use foreign names, they tend to have little to no sense of naming conventions. 'Battler' is a pretty stupid name for a boy too, but that didn't stop Rudolph. And as said in>>2896480 the kanji used for 'Battler' have a few different readings.

>>2896564
Even Shannon would be mistaken for Beatrice.
ALSO
People,try to notice Beatrice Game Piece outfit.It looks like Jessica design with dark Shannon maid outfit parts.Her outfit must have some meaning.

>>2896566
Yes.

Shannon = Kanon has too many holes.

In Ep1, Kanon is standing right besides Shannon's corpse in the shed.

In Ep3 1st twilight, there were corpses for both Shannon and Kanon.

>>2896566
>>2896583
Before trying to argue Battler's not he right opponent Beato states in red that she started the game to fight against Kinzo's grandson Ushiromiya Battler. Doesn't that imply the other Battler is also a grandson and not a granddaughter?

TRUE END

>>2896604
As it is, it must be one of the theories in >>2896559

And I really doubt anyone in the family would die to protect a secret like that. So there really was another servant, they were killed, and the killer took over their personality for a while until that person 'died' again in their mind. And this mental 'death' meets the requirements of the red, allowing 'Kanon's' death to make him the 9th victim.

... This really sounds absurd doesn't it? Even for the conversation we've been having, it seems pretty far fetched.

>>2896611
I don't know Japanese terms for descendants. Is it a gender neutral "grandchild" in the original Japanese, or a gendered, male term?

This is important.

>>2896611
While I didn't play it in Japanese, the word she used may have been 孫 which is gender neutral.

>>2896611
You are taking to heart that Beatrice really believed Battler was really NOT Kinzo's grandson, or her intended opponent. Beato is holding all the cards, so she had to know Battler really is Kinzo's grandson. But Battler can still be tricked. That whole deal was Beato tricking Battler so she could get out of the game cleanly.

>>2896623
>may have been
not good enough

>>2896619
The game involves a witch, who isn't really a witch, who likes causing havoc for everyone involved; a demon butler who makes delicious treats; seven healthy sisters who like drilling you; and assorted other absurdities that pop up.

It's more insane to think that everything is caused by witches rather than just by two insane bisexuals who want to believe in magic.

>>2896620
>>2896623
Even if she said 'grandson', it can still be referring to the Battler we know.

Since this a discussion thread and we are free to discuss anything, let me just slowpoke a bit on this
<-
Yeah, yeah I was aware of their relation to Maria, but the cross never popped into my mind.

>>2896638
Oh shit !!!!! How could i overlooked it!I think i might know where the "Golden Land" is!I need to check everything again though.

>>2896649
You mean letter "A" as "Cross"??Yea i think i know where are you heading at.

>>2896604
This.

How can Shannon = Kanon if there was a corpse for Kanon and a corpse for Shannon?

If the Shannon corpse in ep1 was fake, then that means that all the witnesses in there(aside from George and Battler) were in on it. Hideyoshi even confirmed to George that it was Shannon's body, all while Kanon is standing right beside them.

>>2896638
>>2896649
>>2896653
Now that you mention it... Didn't Kinzo throw a fit when Rosa decided to name her child Maria? Is it because of something he wanted to hide?

>>2896638
Who made the scarf? i know it was Maria's. But, Who made it?

>>2896665
Rosa in past

>>2896665
I think Rosa made it for Maria when she was little.

To those of you advancing the Jessica/Shannon = Beatrice theory - you really need to come up with a concrete motive. Anyone can speculate to no end as to how character x could have committed all the murders, but unless you can explain why he/she would do it in a plausible way, it doesn't do anything to advance our hopes of actually solving the mystery.

And why would Jessica/Shannon = Beatrice? Who says Beatrice (the one writing the letters and meeting with Maria, not the one in the portrait) is even a woman, for that matter?
The fact that they're young women who could potentially pass as the witch of the portrait (as said in game) should automatically make you hesitant to suspect them as culprits because of how transparent a solution that is. And have any of you attempted to address why "Kinzo" gives Maria the letter in episode 4 and not "Beatrice?"

And I also don't understand why some of you think Jessica doesn't look like her parents. She's got Natsuhi's chest and hairstyle, but Krauss' hair color and it's never been even implied that she looks like someone else's child (which was the case with Battler on everyone meeting him again).

>>2896659
If Shannon = Kanon, then a person x may exist. Perhaps someone else in on it. Since her face was missing, there was no proof that it was Shannon. This is one of the big things about Episode 1 that lets you play around with the survivors.

All we've seen in red is that there's not more than 17 people, now. 17 - 1 for Shannon = Kanon = 16, then add accomplice X for 17.

Someone who maybe got shafted during the first game, but served another purpose in the later ones.

>>2896659
>If the Shannon corpse in ep1 was fake
Beato confirms all episode 1 corpses (and possibly other episodes' too, it's ambiguous) in episode 4 so Shannon's corpse can't be fake

>>2896649
You are thinking of Chapel?.I think i solved the Epitah but it is kinda fucked up and i do not want to write everything again.

>>2896686
Shannon's face wasn't fully smashed, it was possible to identify her.

>>2896687
Beatrice only said that for the unidentified corpses. Shannon's corpse was identified since her face was only half-smashed.

>>2896691
The Gold in inthe Chapel. The Chapel had a plate in it that says :One in a Quadrillion Chance that this door will open or something like that.
Can someone post the pic where Ange saw the picture of the chapel in Kumasawa's(don't know if i'm right) house.

>>2896691
>>2896664
>>2896653
SInce Kinzo was unhappy with the name change it should mean the cross probably wasn't factored into his riddle though

>>2896686
You keep saying that Shannon=Kanon.

Please explain how there were SEPARATE IDENTIFIABLE CORPSES for both of them.

ALSO QUESTION
What the fuck was that Agne saw in "boat man"(lol sorry) house so it shocked her so much??

>>2896632
Well, I had to look up the text in Japanese, but the word she uses is 孫　which is gender neutral.

I also don't really understand the Kanon=Shannon theory. In episode 3 Beato said in red:

"6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!"

There were aslo corpses for both, so I can't see how Shannon and Kanon are the same person.

>>2896720
They weren't always Shannon=Kanon. One of them died before.

>>2896721
Generally accepted theory is that she saw a Sakutaro doll

>>2896721
Hm...now that you mention it.
Was there answer?

>>2896721
A Sakutaro doll.

>>2896726
Then the dead one must have died pretty recently, since the corpse wasn't burned to distort the time of death.

>>2896735
Actually i think she saw Battler suit,jesus wtf i am taklking about

>>2896737
>>2896735
But seeing Sakutaro doll would make her suddenly so decisive?

>>2896705
>Beatrice only said that for the unidentified corpses. Shannon's corpse was identified since her face was only half-smashed
Holy shit that actually opens a hole, because
>Shannon's face wasn't fully smashed, it was possible to identify her.
Except Battler or George didn't see that one face to face, it's only Hideyoshi who said it was Shannon. He may have lied and so the corpse having a fake identification and thus not technically being unidentified puts it out of Beato's red confirmation.

>>2896726
That becomes tricky since if he's been dead for long it'd be noticeable, which is why Kinzo's always burned. And if the switch only happened, say, the day before you'd think all those who live on the island would notice the difference, unless they're all in on Kanon's murder.

>>2896754
>But seeing Sakutaro doll would make her suddenly so decisive?
Yeah, because it makes her realize her true purpose is to reconcile with Maria

>>2896759
>He may have lied and so the corpse having a fake identification and thus not technically being unidentified puts it out of Beato's red confirmation.

That's why I mentioned that if that were true, that would mean that Eva+Natsuhi+Hideyoshi+Nanjo + whoever was in that shed at that time must have all been working together to validate that Shannon corpse.

And that isn't really realistic. I mean, nobody would stop George or Battler from looking, right? That would really be suspicious. If Battler insisted on seeing the corpse and everybody tried to stop him, that immediately raise suspicion.

Reading this topic while listening to "Dread od the Grave" is amazing

>>2896806
anything + Dread of the Grave is awesome

>that would mean that Eva+Natsuhi
>Eva+Natsuhi

Another reason why Shannon's corpse must be real in EP1.
I just can't see the two of them plotting together. Unless all their bickering with each other was to set up everything for this big event.

>>2896787
Well, they might have tried to "protect his innocence". What kind of twisted person would allow his/her nephew to see the mutilated bodies of their family members?

>>2896787
Except it is indeed told the grown-ups were doing everything they could to prevent the kids from looking at the bodies. It's also possible to bet on the fact only Gorge and Nanjo would really need to get a close-up view of Shannon and thus as long as the body looked sufficiently Shannon-like from afar and Nanjo was an accomplice George and the others could be fooled. Keep in mind Shannon was the one body that couldn't easily be seen, to the point Battler didn't even immediately notice it.

>to the point Battler didn't even immediately notice it.

Didn't Battler say that "there were more corpses than I could count with my hand" or something? That means he also saw Shannon's corpse.

>>2896847
Merely that he knows of its presence, possible since Hideyoshi must've been near it. Shannon's not among those Battler immediately mentions

Battler's the only kid able to enter the shed, Shannon's body is in a blind spot and only described by Hideyoshi. With those informations her identity can't be verified.

in EP1 when Eva's and Hideyoshi's corpses are found there is a scene where Kanon goes to the shed to take a tool to break the chain. However the shed was locked and natsuhi had the key.... What do you think about this? maybe that scene was bullshit and the chain was already cut when they first found the corpses

>>2896638
The Siesta that died was said to like blowing on a trumpet and loved by everyone.

When Rosa returned home from a business trip she smashed one porcelain rabbit that was holding a trumpet. Maria and her imaginary friends loved that rabbit.

>>2896723
Someone on /a said one of the corpse was fake,
Shannon is dead, Kanon is dead refers to one person. (Was it said at that point in time or was the red said at the end of the game. Lol word-games with time delays)
One of the corpse was alive then and examined by Nanjo(who was in on it). Battler didn't see and confirm Shannon-corpse is Shannon and not some hired killer.
In fact, Shannon being alive may be the reason Nanjo was killed. Eva and Hideyoshi wants her dead so she won't latch on to George.

Did Hideyoshi examine any of the corpse with Nanjo? They could have examined Kanon corpse together, Hideyoshi believing Kanon is dead when in fact s/he is still alive. Which could also explain the clue "He is still alive."

Rudolph could have killed Rosa and Maria, Hideyoshi confronted him in the manor. He shoots Ruldolph thinking him dead, but was killed by Kyrie just as Eva came in. Eva fled the scene chasing after Kyrie and eventually both run back to the main entrance where Eva kills Kyrie. Seeing as both Battler's parents killed her husband Eva later snaps and shoots Battler.

Ruldolph awakens later and confronts Nanjo for not keeping Eva in the guesthouse. Nanjo could have some drugs that was suppose to keep Eva feverish and weak.

Well only thing I managed to figure out from this whole mess :P and that isn't much, is litterly that Beatrice died 30 years ago, giving birth to Battler :)

I haven't read the last X posts in the topic (I don't have enough time to read all of it anymore, will read later), but there's one thing that needs to be mentioned that everybody seems to forget.
Everybody assumes that in ep1 and ep2, 17 people die and none survive, and in ep3, 16 people die and only Eva survives.

Check the ' game results' at the post-game TIPS section.
In ep1 and ep2, it will list 17 people (including Kinzo) as having died...HOWEVER, IT ONLY LISTS BATTLER AS 'HAVING DISAPPEARED'.
Now, this isn't much of a problem, as it's only Battler and we know he isn't the culprit. However, take a look at ep3's game result...Jessica DISAPPEARED, NOT DIED, at the tenth twilight. Add to that that her death wasn't confirmed in red, and Jessica becomes extremely suspicious in ep3.
(Battler was confirmed dead in ep3, by the way.)

>>2897438

so battler is 30+ years old!! oh yeah you solved it