/jp/ - Otaku Culture

I'm pretty certain Episode 1's culprit is Kanon with help from Nanjo and Jessica. Perhaps Jessica as the mastermind and Nanjo as the tragic accomplice.

Doesn't the first episode get solved in Seacat 5?

>>3683776
plz stop spamming ur shitty board on www.BEDEtalk.com ( replace BEDE w/ anon ) were tired of ur constant fucken spam and ddos attack's also stop lying about AT ok now gtfo dumbo's

>>3683800
Not really, it's a different game.

http://imageboard4free.com/board/seacats

It's magic. There's nothing to explain.

>>3683794
That could be possible, seeing as she hated her father and she had a good idea where the adults went off to when Genji arrived with the news. But if Nanjo wasn't actually lying about the rigor mortis itself, they could have died anywhere 12 AM to 2 AM, and at about 1 AM Jessica was still finishing playing cards with Battler and co. Jessica and Kanon would have to be really quick about killing everyone. And this brings also a question, how did they kill 5 adults? Shannon could be easy, being struck from behind by a person she trusted.

>>3683777
Why can't Kinzo have killed them again?

>>3683794
Post "how" and "why".

Trap X solves everything.
That and go read Episode 5.

It was all Natsuhi.
/thread

>>3683869
Kinzo is dead at the start of all games. There're only 17 people on the island.

>>3683775
plz stop spamming ur shitty board on www.EECBtalk.com ( replace EECB w/ anon ) were tired of ur constant fucken spam and ddos attack's also stop lying about AT ok now gtfo dumbo's

>>3683945
>>3683837
Okay:

Who done it:
Jessica, Kanon and Nanjo

How done it:
1st twilight: Kanon brought a some poisoned snacks to the remaining adults at the family meeting, Jessica continues playing cards with the cousins until they go asleep and then goes to meet Kanon in the parlor. However they are discovered by Shannon who passed by there by chance and they have no choice but to silence her. Maybe Jessica shot her with a shotgun and that's why they started destroying the faces in the first place to make it seem like a matching crime, but this pushing it.
Anyway the two of them prepare the shed, Jessica paints the magic circle and Kanon returns the key.

2nd twilight:
The trick here is that Kanon was in the room as the chain was cut. Notice how most people arrive after the chain was cut, I'm not certain at what part Genji plays in this as he testified to have been with Kanon when they discovered the locked room. Maybe he was an accomplice as well and cut the chain to let Kanon out and make it seem like a perfect closed room murder. Also the weapon of choice in this case would be a stake shooting device.

3rd Twilight:
I don't really remember the circumstances, but placing the letter should not be that much of a problem.

4th Twilight:
Kanon fakes his own death, notice how the stake was found next to his body not actually impaling his chest. This is archieved by Dr. Nanjou being an accomplice and him and Jessica having been the only ones to be with Kanon at the "point of death".

>>3684022
continued:

5. Twilight to 8th Twilight:
Genji, Kumasawa, Nanjou and Kinzo.
Well seeing as Nanjou knew too much they had to dispose of them, Genji doesn't seem like he's capable of resistance and Kumasawa is just an old women none of these should have been to difficult for Kanon. As for the "Beatrice" Maria saw, I believe it was just Kanon crossdressing. I mean look at him, he looks like a fucking girl already.

The rest:
In the 4th game it was said that the person you want to go against most is usually left for last. In this case that would be Natsuhi, Jessica's greatest grudge right after Battler. Now after Natsuhi's death the 1st game ends and we never get to experience what happened afterwards, but I expect something along the lines of Jessica revealing her being the mastermind and then a konfrontation between Kanon-Jessica and George-Batter.

Why done it:
Jessica has every reason to hate her family. She hates the life on the island, she hates her mother who never really loved her. And she probably also hates Battler, you know the whole "Battler's sin" problem. I don't know the details but it's probably something along the lines of Battler 6 years ago promising Jessica to come and get her and release her of the chains of her life on the island and then just disappearing for 6 years. The reason why Kanon goes along with the crime is out in the darkness, but someone once suspected that he might be the real Battler, the child from Asumu that Rudolf and Kyrie made to disappear and that's how he ended in a certain orphanage. I like that theory.
Nanjou? He was probably forced to go along. I mean he does mention his granddaughter at times. Maybe Jessica and Kanon blackmailed him using her as bait.

>>3683966
You don't really believe that, do you? I mean her being framed in episode 5 really makes it obvious that it wasn't her after all. Also obviously it wasn't Battler either. It's the Mion problem all over again. There must be someone else for whom the crime was possible.

>>3684022
>>3684027
but but Jessica died on the first twilight in EP5.

>Shannon could be easy, being struck from behind by a person she trusted.
This makes me think, perhaps the the George and Shannon relationship was a set-up to begin with to direct guilt away from George.

Ok I may be an idiot, but I don't see what all the "mystery" is about with Umineko and trying to solve how the murder was done.

Beatrice IS a witch who uses MAGIC. It's not like she's pretending or anything. So why is such a big deal being made over finding out "how" the murders were done, when we all know she's just killing people with magic?

>>3684022
At the 4th-6th twilight in EP3, who gouged Rudolf, Kyrie and Hideyoshi?
Kanon had been dead, and both Jessica and Nanjo was impossible to do it.

>>3684047
No she didn't. Battler theorized in blue that they weren't actually dead and it wasn't disproved. It was only stated in red that they were dead by the end of the game. Also it is entirely possible that there is a diffrent culprit in a diffrent game. Especially since we see the Jessica = Beatrice theory in episode 4. And in episode 5 the epitah was solved and "Beatrice" wasn't the culprit.

>>3684069
son of bitch RYUKISHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

>>3684061
You're an idiot.

>>3684074

Srsly I don't get it щ(ﾟДﾟщ)

>>3684069
> It is entirely possible that there is a diffrent culprit in a diffrent game.
Why are there different culprits?
By Rokkenjima Syndrome?
"There are different culprits in different games, but I don't know why" isn't a correct explanation.

>>3684090
Maybe there is some plausible reason for different culprits, multiple people vying for the gold it just depends who gets who first and some set of random occurrences effects this.

>>3684068
Diffrent games = diffrent culprits become possible. I don't really have a theory worked out for the third game, especialy since it was stated in red in that one that Jessica didn't commit murder, but i can give you one for the second one.

Who done it:
Rosa and Jessica

How done it:
1st Twilight: Jessica dresses up as Beatrice and invites all the relatives to the church. She confronts them about Kinzo and the Gold (enter my theory that Jessica is actually the child of Kinzo and the Beatrice he kept at his hidden mansion here, see why done it) and claims her right as the rightful heir. They admit it and then get killed by her and Rosa and set up in the chapel. They go out of the door, paint the magic circle and Rosa puts the key in Maria's bag.

2. Twilight: However after that Rosa and Jessica clinch, Rosa wants to stop Jessica from killing further and confronts her in her room and ends up killing her. Notice how Kanons corpse disappears, like always when he dies. Rosa probably shot him and made him disappear to make him seem suspicious. Rosa also probably has obtained a master key by this point in time from one of the other servants, maybe Jessica was keeping it along with Kanon's and this is how the closed Room is created. Notice how all five master keys end up with Rosa, but it is not proved that she didn't hold one of them to begin with.

>>3684119
continued:

The rest: It's been a while since I've read episode 3 and I'm just typing this out so there may be mistakes. But I think the following happens: Rosa discovers the stake shooting device in Jessica's room and is stunned at the size of the conspiracy, she takes it with her and begins to hunt down the servants she suspects to have been in liege with Jessica. Her surveilance by Battler really isn't noteworthy. Also George gets killed because obviously he got the way of Shannon being killed.

Why done it:
Well Rosa, obviously wanted to gain control over the family that made a fool out of her ever since the incident with Maria's dad. Jessica has an ulterior motive. I think she is actually not Krauss and Natsuhi's daughter, but the daughter of Kinzo and the Beatrice from the hidden mansion. There is a bit of a conflict with this theory from episode 5, but nothing that couldn't be solved, but I won't go further into this now. Hints for this are Natsuhi's incapability of getting pregnant and Jesscia always having been bigger and stronger than Battler in their childhood days despite both of them being supposedly of the same age.
Note: Beatrice from the mansion died 20 years ago while Battler and Jessica are supposedly 18 years old, so Jessica would actually be older than that.

>>3684061

I'll accept the witch did it if it can not be explained how all of the murders were committed by humans. Plus, it's more fun to try and explain it with humans than LOL A WIZARD DID IT.

As for speculation

>>3684022

For your comment on the first game's 2nd Twilight:

>Also the weapon of choice in this case would be a stake shooting device.

Hasn't it been put into Red that no such device exists on the island by either Beatrice or Lambda by Episode 4?

As for how Kanon could have done it, I think that the chain could have been undone from the outside without destroying either the chain or the door. This is only possible if that Red text mentioning gaps and whatnot only applies to the door itself and not any accessories that may come with it.

4th Twilight:

>Kanon fakes his own death

It's been stated in Red that Kanon died at that moment. By being dead, he can not participate in the future twilights of that game. Not saying he isn't an accomplice but you'll have to revise the remaining twilights, as, by your theory, Jessica's accomplices are all dead before Natsuhi dies (unless it can be argued that Jessica slipped out of the room with a gun and killed her mother without anyone noticing her leaving).

>>3684090
I think there is a common mastermind, however the way the actualy murders play out could still be diffrent each game by random occurance and multiple people with murderous intent being present. For example Episode 5 probably has an entirely diffrent culprit due to the gold being found and it's being found being announced before even the first twilight happens.

>>3684090
>By Rokkenjima Syndrome?
This alone is a pretty good theory.
Would explain why Battler is pretty much omitted.

>>3684119

The biggest fault I have with your line of reasoning is

>Jessica dresses up as Beatrice

I'm not saying that this isn't possible, but if we compare it to the similar arguments for Kinzo and Kanon, it just doesn't hold water, especially when you consider Krauss and Natushi being up close with "Beatrice".

However, until Red denies it, it's a possibility.

>>3684128
As I've played all five episodes, I don't think I'm missing any red text and I'm pretty sure that these two were never stated:

>no stake shooting device exists
>(episode 1) Kanon died at that point in time

It was stated that no trap shooting stakes or something exists, but what I'm talking about would be something like a crossbow, except that it shoots stakes making it possible even for a women with little to no bodily strength to heavily impair people. Well even if it didn't exist, the murders could still be done by hand so the theory doesn't a 100% depend on it.

And I think you're mistaken that from episode 2 Kanon's death wich was certainly confirmed for time and place in red.

There is a disturbing lack of people suspecting Kyrie here.

>>3684137
Knox' rules forbid the existance of not yet known deseases or drugs/medicines.

>>3684150
Tell us why we should.

>>3684150
Kyrie is a good girl.

We have to explain "who", "how" and "why", and have to indicate the scenes that we can find the mentions(implications) about them.

So when you use important ideas for your theory, it's necessary to add: "it can be found in this scene(narration, line)."
And of course you have to show how "stronger" it is than other possibilities.

>>3684150

I really don't a reason for Kyrie being the culprit

I still think the culprit is related to Beatrice-plot, otherwise why would he use the legend? He could kill everyone on the fist night.

>>3684090
>Rokkenjima Syndrome

Please, not this shit.

Anyway, i think there are different culprits for each game, but one mastermind behind everything.

>>3684142

After reviewing the Red Text available, I must admit that I'm wrong about the stake shooting device not existing. The only hiccups with Kanon's death are that no time of death can be established and not explicitly stating that Kanon could not have faked his death, so it is possible for Kanon to fake his death to commit the crimes you mentioned, then having Jessica kill him in the boiler room.

>>3684185
Indeed the mastermind doesn't necessarily have to survive until the last twilight either since usurpers could easily knock them off.

Kumasawa did all the murders at the beginning of each episode and then using her high-speed running techniques she starts running really fast while changing her clothes so it looks like she is all the 18 people at once. And then she trips and Battler was the demons.

>>3684193
This is canon.

>>3684150

Seeing as she dies in about half of the games by the first twilight, it's kind of hard to draw that sort of suspicion on her.

>I'll accept the witch did it if it can not be explained how all of the murders were committed by humans. Plus, it's more fun to try and explain it with humans than LOL A WIZARD DID IT.

So is all of this kinda like a game that you're trying to figure out for fun then? Because the

>I'll accept the witch did it if it can not be explained how all of the murders were committed by humans.

part is confusing me since we're actually SEEING Beatrice commit most of the murders.

>>3684196

>>3684191

I can buy the mastermind dying in the games so far, but not for every game.

In EP4, Battler saw "Beatrice".
And important is, although it was raining, he could tell she was Beatrice CLEARLY, and he could do it by her FACE, not her clothes.
Denying these facts means that you deny detective's narration.

"Same face and different clothes" can't be called "disguise", in my opinion.
So I think uniformed-Beato is a human, and she is the vessel of the golden witch.

>>3684204

All of the magic that we've seen can either be ignored (basis in Battler's Devil's Proof in Episode 3 for Beatrice v. Virgilia) or explained with human tricks (Kinzo was fucking rich and could have built his mansion with technology not widely available to the rest of the world, such as stuff allowing light shows for the Siesta sisters' arrows)

>>3684193

I think Kuma is ddefinitely one of ep IV culprits she was ALONE all the time.. i always found weird when "kinzo" said to the kids to drop Kuma in the garage

>>3684204
Isn't it ?
I don't understand how people can try solving this by non-magical means when they still agree to abide rules set by a "witch".
Red text is the absolute truth and doesn't need proof ? How would one deny a witch when they accept anything that witch says at face value?
People trying to solve the "mystery" are odd.

>>3684235
playing by rules set by a human bro.

Honestly, I wish that one of the next answer arcs would visit a previous game (Episode 1 in particular) so that we could gather more information. I just want to see how the culprits moved the bodies from the dining room to the gardening shed without leaving more evidence than the blood stains in the dining room.

>>3684235

You can't deny magic and witches.

You can deny the murders were done by a which, if you find the proves.

Also, people always forgot that the game Beato created has other objectives, like Battler's sin

>>3684237
Humans don't speak in "red" and can't tell absolute truths without providing proof.
Be it witch or human, mystery solvers shouldn't accept red text.

>>3684235

Fine

The meta-world and Episodes 2-5 are just a stress-induced delusion that Battler is suffering from in Episode 1 before the final twilight. No magic needs to exist then.

>>3684219

Right. I know some of the murders Beatrice did COULD be replicated by humans, but she's the one behind all of them anyways, right? (I'm only midway through vn episode 2 btw)

Why is Battler even denying all this when he's seeing the magic right in front of his eyes? I mean, he's in freaking purgatory watching it all happen again. Why is he doubting this is supernatural?

>>3684235
The rules set by the "witch" are the rules set by the author.
The author needs to play out his mystery with these rules.
Thus we can follow these rules as well.

He's not going to say "Fuck the rules, this is the last episode. ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN OLOLOLO"

>>3684257

Did you play ep III? It's explained in there

>>3684257

i had something typed up for kyrie as suspicious but whatever

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFAoRsjILiI

this is better

>>3684260
I'm not speaking from the point of a reader following a story; more as someone in that universe attempting to explain the murders.
Immersing oneself, someone who wants to prove the murders were done by humans has no need to believe such affirmations.

>>3684257 Why is Battler even denying all this when he's seeing the magic right in front of his eyes?

Battler never sees this "magic", only Meta-Battler does. Since the game board is not controlled by Meta-Battler, the story can be told in whatever way is convenient for the other side.

>>3684235
You have admitted meta-world as the another world?
I haven't.

Some people say "we can admit meta-world as anti-fantasy", but it's just a stupid excuse.

>>3684262

I am not on 3 yet but thank you.

I've been confused as hell over the whole battler-violently-denying Beatrice being a witch with magic thing because she is really obviously a witch who uses magic (unless this is all some crazy delusion).

>>3684265

For Battler's logic to not be sound and accurate, it must be shown that this "magic" can not be replicated through any other means, hence the whole point of the game.

It doesn't matter if you are anti-magic, fantasy or whatever.

You can' deny magic or the meta-world. Devil proof

>>3684265
Actually it's a big hint.

>>3684291
Devil's proof can be repealed by saying something doesn't exist until its existence has been proven.

>>3684301

And to prove magic, and by extension witches, exist, >>3684283

Battler's reasoning is not flawed.

>>3684301
After all, this is how science proceeds.
You can't claim "pigs can fly" and yell "DEVIL'S PROOF" to anyone to tells you wrong.
To be right, you need to show a flying pig.

>>3684322

Cold Fusion

>>3684328
Has not been subjected to rigorous review and experimentation. Is considered marginally from traditional science. Until it has been accepted by traditional scientists and been submitted to serious and recognised studies, is not proven to exist.

>>3684339

By that line of reasoning, just being shown "magic" doesn't mean it exists.

>>3684352
Correct, I backtrack on my previous statement.
You need to show the flying pig and magic to scientists and have them claim "Yep, that is a flying pig/magic" after measuring and analysing it;

Devil's Proof is not a good argument, and anyone who seriously uses it is an idiot.

Getting back on topic, something just occurred to me that doesn't seem easily explained by AoG's theory: How did Jessica get the head's ring for the sealed envelope given to Maria if she is not recognized as the current head of house?

>>3684666
Kinzo is dead, right? Perhaps she had learned about it sometime before the game took place and stole the ring from her parents.

>>3684265
Battler never gets shown magic within the "game" does he? Only outside of it, if I recall correctly.

In general I'd say there are two or three extremely easy ideas he could use to explain away the magic: 1) it's all a dream. 2) lots of drugs (drugs can give people insane strength/reflexes for a short time, after all, and a few of them certainly act drugged). 3) hypnotism.

All of those are non-magical explanations that would be fairly difficult for the witch to explain away, since Battler could say he himself is drugged (which would explain all the colored letters he's seeing when people talk, not to mention bunny girls and antlerheadguys.

>>3684874
Change
>IT WAS A WIZARD LOL
to
>IT WERE VOODOO AND HYPNOTISM LOL
Perfect.

>>3684933
Except hypnotism actually exists.

>>3684090
>>3684137
>>3684219
Knox Rule 4.

>>3684252
Knox Rule 2.

>>3684291
>>3684874
Knox Rule 8.

Also, there are lots of ways to explain what's going on without having to resort to "lol delusions" or "DRUGS ARE BAD KIDS"

Everybody just needs to calm down and DIE DIE DIE THE DEATH SENTENCE TO DEATH GREAT EQUALIZER IS THE DEATH

>>3685065
drugz r so randum XDDDDD

>>3684966
Except hypnotism doesn't actually work that way.

It's all a dream, and Maria is a dreamer, that's my theory since i finished EP4

>>3685149
You seem to not understand how theory should be.
Even if all is Maria's dream, you have to say what is the truth in her dream.

>>3685065
How many of Knox' rules did Higurashi break?

>>3685293
Brotip: r07 throwing Knox rules in is a troll.

>>3685293
Not even one, Knox was Higurashi's mop

>>3683773
plz stop spamming ur shitty board on www.CAEBtalk.com ( replace CAEB w/ anon ) were tired of ur constant fucken spam and ddos attack's also stop lying about AT ok now gtfo dumbo's

http://www.youtube.com/user/MUHAMMADFUCKEDKIDS

>>3685065
Fuck you I can think of two drugs the family could have taken.

Datura metel: These could be the plants outside. You know those Roses that were red white and all those colors? well they all sniffed them. And guess what Gohda was cooking them for dinner. This makes people hallucinate. There should be no damn problem if I can think of the drug, right!?

LSD: alright, it doesn't even need to be LSD if you cut a ping pong ball in half and tape them over your eye's and get a red light and a radio that's turned on to static they'll get the same effect.

This explains all of the 'Magic' in fucking Umineko.

>>3686257
This is entirely possible, but as I've heard from the more obnoxious fans, magic does exist. However, it's not the magic you think of, eg. spells, teleportation etc. As someone once said, it's the feeling you get when you eat your mother's cookies or something.

Basically, it's mushy love bullshit. It would make more sense if there were drugs involved, but of course that takes away from "WITHOUT LOVE THE TRUTH CANNOT BE SEEN" by adding realism.

Umineko threads in /jp/ are retarded compared to the ones in /a/

>>3686279
/a/ unconditionally believes magic exists. /jp/ exists to piss people off; we must make /a/ mad. The only reason I'm still making theories is to piss /a/ off. Seriously, after Episode 5 came out I checked the shitstorm I believed it would cause to /a/ and all I saw was 'Beatrice is love' and everyone denouncing theories and calling the dudes that make them shitheads.

>>3684834

While I strongly doubt that, let's just accept it for the argument's sake. We now have another huge problem due to Episode 4: who is currently recognized as the head of the house? Grandfather Kinzo can't be it, because he's dead before the game ever starts. It can't be Jessica as she never sits in the head's seat in any of the episodes, nor is she recognized by the parents as being the head of the house.

>>3686257
There is no drug which makes all people have delusion which shares same setting.

I think I missed something. Why can't Umineko be like Higurashi, where there was certainly a magical component, but the entire mystery was human/syndrome based? In the same way you can argue about kakera and meta word are real, but everything on the island is divorced from the realm of magic, which is just Beato/Bern trolling Meta-Battler on his loss by jumping to different kakera. The whole magic on Rokenjima is just an unreliable narrator, a common trope in mystery novels. It's up to the reader to figure out what's really going on or at least wild mass guess.

>>3686360
> /a/ unconditionally believes magic exists.
/jp/ also believes magic exists.
"We can keep our anti-fantasy even if we admit meta-world is witches' another world!" - this should be blamed such as "lol witches' world".

My personal guess is that every games is a reconstruction of what really happened during these 2 days using some elements.
For example, Maria's letter.

I see it that way, some people found Maria's letters, they decided to try to solve the mystery and created some sort of role play thing.
Beatrice of the meta-world symbolize the game master, by using the letters and maybe some other clues like some police investigation or something, she fills in the blank by adding magic in it.
And there are others that try to argue against her stories, like this they try to find out the truth.

Or something like this, that's what I thought about after reading episode 4, though I may have missed some things since I'm really that much into Umineko.

>>3687013
The perpetrator must have made everyone start thinking about a nineteenth person and about the Witch. So with this the drug would work on this and let the mind work it's magic.


Like for example I make someone take LSD then I start telling 'em the story of the Headless Horsemen 8/10 times says he will start saying the Headless Horsemen is attacking him. It's mere suggestion. Besides out of the drugs/plants that dude (>>3686257) mentioned Datura Metel is the one that made Shiki of Tsukihime WANT TO KILL PEOPLE. It also adds in fucking delusions, huh? Never knew that.

lol this story gets more and more retarded as it goes on.

>>3686360
>/a/ unconditionally believes magic exists.

We say this too. Obviously magic isn't being used to kill everyone, but you're silly if you're going to deny magic entirely especially after EP5.

>>3687058
I say Magic exists outside of the gameboard. No Magic was used in the murders.

>>3687041
> So with this the drug would work
How can that drug give delusions, which have same details, to multiple people?
Why do all delusions share same Stakes, same Siestas, same Gaap?

>>3687065
You are saying "magic exists."

>>3687067
Who ever said they are the same?

>>3687079
You haven't seen their CGs?

>>3687058
I say magic doesn't exist at all and the meta-world is not real.

I refuse to believe that magic was used in the murders.

I'll stick to my original theory that there is a single mastermind who's behind this all.

Kyrie's a suspicious bitch.

>>3687067
Knox's Commandments won't allow such a drug never mentioned before in the story so far.

>>3687084
.... CG's have been known to be inconsistent. Like for example was there a GIANT GAPING WHOLE in Fake Kanon's chest when everyone was looking at him in Episode 2?

>>3687085
If that's what you really believe I'm pretty sure you're going to be disappointed with EP5.

>>3687086
i agree

>>3687094
Your can't ignore details of magic scenes, because you made a theory for denying details of magic scenes.

>>3687089
It has been mentioned as the dude pointed out the plants in the front of the house- the game said they were white Datura Metel is pure white. Gohda stated he used them for food. And no Knox's commandment states an 'Unkown' drug which means if the reader can think of a real drug it is a loophole.

>>3687108
Then tell me why there was no hole? I have never seen a game where they made sprites for everything.

>>3687085
You have to explain what meta-world is.

>>3687118
Because Umineko is sound novel.

I wonder why you guys think you don't have to explain what things WE SAW are.

>>3687119
The metaworld, like any other representation of magic presented in the series, is a fantasy version of an event.

I could bring up my theory about the Mariage Sorciere that I usually bring up in these kinds of conversations if you'd like.

>>3684262
How was it explained again? I forgot exactly.

>>3687142
What is "a fantasy version of an event"?

My main theory for Umineko is that it's a visual novel.

>>3687162
Every single magical incident has some foundation in events that actually happened. It's usually just dressed up with fantasy elements.

Like Virgilia said, magic is an embellishment. It's not real, but it represents something that is.

>>3687162
Beatrice lying through her teeth and using some kind of reality photoshop to show utterly misleading edits out of context.
Why anyone would do that is beyond me.

>>3687160
Probably he means Virgilia's explanation "multiple possibilities can exist in Rokkenjima."
But it's just an advice to Battler, not the answer.
If it's the answer, magic will exist.

>>3687173
So, what, is, meta-world?
What your post says is "what meta-world does."

>>3687204
The meta-world can represent the outside world looking into the stories of the Rokkenjima murders.

Meta-Battler represents the side that wants to solve the mysteries using logic and reason.
Beatrice represents the side that is more superstitious and believes that it was something akin to divine intervention that killed the family.

>>3687237
......So, what is meta-world?

>>3687440
Meta

>>3687204
The meta-world is actually a process to unravel the mystery behind the events of Rokkenjima. Let me explain:

- First of all, there is only one Rokkenjima. Every game up to now has only been a scenario written by a person who goes by the name of "Beatrice" and "Maria Ushiromiya". She credits these deaths to a witch so all the blame will be placed on her, but within these games lies the truth for those who are willing to find it. This much I believe is true, and I could explain the reason why if anybody bothers asking.

- If that's the case, then these letters are directed to some Battler-type of person that has every reason to find out this truth. Who this person is we aren't exactly sure yet.

- Lambdadelta represents that force that put "Beatrice" up to this task. It's very probable that after Beatrice was nearly defeated in Ep 4, that somebody representing Lambdadelta took up the task of writing the game letters. She is probably not the mastermind, but she is at least the driving force behind the murders and knows what Beatrice is aiming for.

- Now, Bernkastel represents an individual who wishes to solve the unsolved mystery of the Rokkenjima Massacre. Her motive is to wipe out the current individual attached to Rokkenjima (Beatrice, who has gained prominence after the letters were released to the public), and make Rokkenjima attached to her name instead. She doesn't care finding the truth, as long as she can given an explanation for the mysteries surrounding it.

In short, the meta-world is not actually a "world", but it represents four different individuals or groups that are acting around the Rokkenjima mystery. This sequence of events most likely takes place in the future, when the contents of the bottle letters have become known and the idea that a witch was behind the massacres has been largely accepted by the masses.

>>3687086

If she is the mastermind, why does she die in every game, with two of those deaths being in the first twilight? I can see her as an accomplice but definitely not the mastermind.

we don't even know if meta battler and piece battler are the same person, the true "Battler".

>>3687488
Takano always died back in Higurashi days.

>>3687500

Takano was hardly a rational human by the time the games start.

>>3687535
And why do you think that everyone in Rokkenjima is a rational human? Just look at Maria!

>>3687593
And... this'll probably come as a shock, but one of them is a murderer!

>>3687603
D: oh noes

>>3687452 I could explain the reason why if anybody bothers asking.

I'd like to know.

>>3687593

Let me rephrase my previous statement:

Takano was hardly a person that valued surviving the ordeal so long as she accomplished her goal. It could be argued that whoever the mastermind in Umineko has a similar set of values, Kyrie would be the last person I'd attribute that kind of mindset to.

After reviewing the first two games, I'm pretty damn sure Genji is with the culprit(s). He probably knows about Jessica's secret from Kinzo and he might be acting on the late Kinzo's orders (the Kinzo appearance in episode 4 anyone? I'm pretty sure that was Genji).

>>3689322
As much as "culprit turns out to be one of the servants" is really chliché, you are right, in Umineko it works... just fine. In EP 1, 2 and 4 it makes sense, in EP 3 there is no reason why it wouldn't work out. However

>>3686769
As much as this is a good point, I believe that we have a different set of culprits every gameboard, each triggered by Battler's sin.

>>3689429
I believe that there is a certain conspiracy involving Jessica, however the way it plays out is very diffrent each game board.

Let's try discussing game 3, a game where I have yet failed to bring up a consistent theory. I don't want to believe the culprit to be Eva, since that would be way too easy. Even though she did probably shoot Battler in the end in her despair.
Also even though the death of pretty much everyone is granted in red, the point of death remains mysterious. It is entirely possible that someone faked their death and then latterons killed Nanjo and the others. I wouldn't think that it is one out of Kyrie, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Natsuhi, Krauss or George as their corpses were found with pretty much all remaining members present. The corpses of the servants are a diffrent matter, I mean did Battler, our narrator, ever see them with his own eyes?

Also notice how Jessica never dies as Evatrice is summoned to the meta world before she goes in for the kill. Still only Eva survives as we know from Ange's world, but there is still the disaster at the end that kills EP4 Battler. A landslide being the most likely possibility, in my opinion.

>>3689587
>> Still only Eva survives as we know from Ange's world
Can't be sure of that, the red text is a subjective truth after all and it's been proved that the epilogue text can "lie".
For example, let's say that there's a police investigation that conclude that every one except Eva died during these 2 days, the red text would work here.
But the real truth could be different, the culprit could fake his death and go hide himself from the world, he would only be legally dead, red text works here.

>>3683967
No he wasnt. When it was stated that he was dead, he was just inside his study which was a ''Schrödinger's box'' at the time. He was both dead and alive at the same time so the red text told the truth.

>>3689619
Yes he was, contrary to popular fake spoilers, the golden truth in episode 5 is not used to bring Kinzo back. Contrary it establishes Kinzo's death.
Though I must admit, that given your premise, the possibility still isn't ruled out.

Umineko isn't real.

Prove me wrong.

>>3689904
I bought it. You want pictures or what?

>>3689911
That never happened.

>>3689917
Well fuck. What happened to the money I bought it with?

>>3689919
You bought another game.

>>3689904
What about the detective's testimony?

>>3689919
You most likely never had it.

Why does Rosa need the money again?

>>3690701
To buy a husband.

>>3690701
Pay off the loans she had to take to get her company started right off the bat.

>>3690701

Her designer clothes business is failing.

As for AoG's Jessica, Kanon, and Nanjo theory for Episode 1, how do you explain "Beatrice" showing up before Maria? I ask this as I sincerely doubt any of those three being able to do it, as they either have fairly strong alibis (Jessica is with Battler the whole time, Nanjo is with people you do not suspect the whole time) or would be breaking Knox's rules to pull off the act (How did Kanon get all of the materials needed to pull off the charade and what happened to said materials when they were done with it).

When is EP6 coming out anyways?

>>3690701
She doesn't, she's just in it for the blood.

Who kills Goldsmith at the start of every game?

>>3692686
Disease

I'm just going through episode 2 here.
Where did the killer get 2 golden bars?

>>3693014

Well, Episode 5 proves that the location to the gold is already known to at least 1 person on the island before the game starts. Thus, that situation can be explained without magic.

What I still want to know is how to explain Beatrice in episodes 1 and 2.

If we go the Shannon route, where'd she get the outfit from and where did she dump it when she was done? Of course, this must be explained without violating Knox's rules.

If we take the Rosa argument, we can disregard the outfit question since she can just force Maria to lie to anyone that asks, including Rosa herself, that it was Beatrice who visited with Maria.

What isn't explained with either theory is how Rosa or Shannon managed to get their hands on the head's ring to make the letter, though I suppose this could be explained later in the game.

>>3693048
Wasn't it explained in episode 1 that someone could, with a bit of trouble, create a forgery, having gotten at least one enveloppe of the sort before hand?

>>3693066

The letter, yes.

The seal, no.

>>3693085
Don't make me read through episode 1 again.
Was it ever said in red that the seal cannot be re-created?

>>3693085

Oh, the seal part is explained episode 3 or 4 I believe. Not a major spoiler but I apologize for not applying spoiler tags.

Gohda is the son of Kinzo and the real Beatrice (the one who gave him the gold).
He is back both to get his gold and to get his revenge on his father and his family who abandoned him.

He is working with Shannon and maybe Jessica.
He has been feeding hallucinogens to the whole family; the reason why the people who live on the island and those who visit it regularly are more prone to see magical things is because they have been fed these things for a long time.
First game? He actually didn't die, his face wasn't completely destroyed during the first twillight, therefore the red text didn't work on him, he just faked his death with some make up, nobody came close to him to check his body too.

For Jessica, it's possible he had been using her by hypnotizing her or something, living with her he had the time to put her under his spell, her inhaler could be filled with some drugs.

GOHDA IS THE TRUE MASTERMIND, YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST.

>>3693099

There is no Red Text in Episode 1. Now that I re-check the Red Text, I don't believe it's ever stated that there is only 1 seal. The only time that it is mentioned that there is only 1 seal is during Ange's events in Episode 4 so it could be a lie.

>>3683774
plz stop spamming ur shitty board on www.DEDBtalk.com ( replace DEDB w/ anon ) were tired of ur constant fucken spam and ddos attack's also stop lying about AT ok now gtfo dumbo's

>>3693122 First game? He actually didn't die, his face wasn't completely destroyed during the first twillight,

Only Krauss and Shannon had partially destroyed faces.

>>3693149
Pretty sure Kyrie and Rudolf did too didn't they?

>>3693194

No, 4 corpses had faces destroyed beyond recognition while 2 had half of their faces smashed. Kyrie, Rosa, Rudolf and Gohda all had their faces destroyed while Shannon and Krauss had half of their faces smashed in.

Just reload that scene where they discover the 6 corpses.

If Rosa is the culprit in the second episode, what stops her from just shooting everyone?
"Umineko wouldn't be intersting then" is not an answer.

>>3693244

The Winchesters can only hold 5 bullets at a time. If she were to open fire on the remaining people too soon, she would be overwhelmed by the survivors before she could reload.