/jp/ - Otaku Culture

If you want you can also tie this in with the other popular "Moon-chan" theory. Jessica is consistently suspicious, right? Kanon died in her room. Maybe she killed him before the start of the game, and Krauss and Natsuhi decided to coverup Jessica's crime by pretending that Kanon was still alive.

If you want you can have the Kanon seen by Shannon during the games be a symbol of some sort of inner conflict (maybe she feels guilty or angry about Kanon's death), sort of like how Goldsmith in Episode 5 was a manifestation of Natsuhi's loyalty to the family.

Anyway, what do you think of this theory? I'd appreciate some evidence from any episodes, especially 6, that would disprove it.

I don't know what you are talking about.

>>4202237
>Jessica is consistently suspicious
No, not really.

>>4202251
That was more an attempt to appease the people who think Jessica is suspicious. She didn't have to kill Kanon -- maybe she and Kanon were doing the business in their room, Krauss barged in, and killed Kanon in a fit of rage. Or anyone else, we don't know who is and isn't on the island at the start of the game.

>>4202273
Er, before the start of the game, not at the start.

>>My theory is that Kanon and Shannon did exist as separate people before the game's start

Knox, it can't work.

Or you could explain "no more than 17 people including Erika" without resorting to something stupid like Shkannon.

For instance, if Erika doesn't exist, ever, you still have the 17 people. it's like both Erika and Kinzo are 0s. you can add as many of them as you wish, and the count would still remain at 17.

Shkannon just triggers my red herring sense every time. It's a stupid theory.

>>4202329
>>For instance, if Erika doesn't exist, ever, you still have the 17 people.
She KILLS five people in episode 5 by cutting their fucking throats, stated in red.
Also she is counted as having a body, in red once again, when talking about the Battler-Kanon closed room, mentioning this before you go on some retarded theory.

>>4202285
Which rule, the 10th? It at least doesn't violate that rule any more than the DID theory does. Hell, the definition of "clues" is pretty loose to begin with...

>>4202329
That's why I'm trying to make Shkannon a less retarded theory. I'm tired of people going LOL DID MEIDO R07 SUX

If Shkannon theory is true, that means the 17th person is Piece Beato or random Yamainu working for the culprit is arround the island.

Knoxan

>>4202345
It does actually.
There is a difference between becoming someone you aren't (your theory) and just being what you've always been (ShKanontrice theory).
The first one is a disguise, second isn't.

Also there is no clues whatsoever that Kanon could have died before or something.

>>4202372
But the second theory still requires Shannon to be wearing a disguise when she is around Battler -- She is fooling him, intentionally or not.


Also there is a clue that Kanon died -- the Red "Kanon died in this (Jessica's) room" in Episode 2.

>>4202395
Fooling is something intentional.
Anyways "disguise" is a particular word with a specific definition and it doesn't wok on ShKanontrice, that's pretty much all.

Also for your second point, that's not a clue at all.
Especially when you think about the other episodes, like 4 for example.
Remember when and where Kanon "died" in this episode.

>>4202344
She never kills anyone. Goddamn, learn some fucking reading comprehension.

For starters, all 6 of the first twilight victims were not moved after they were killed, not just the 5. And secondly, that violates Knox's 7th. Erika dealing the finishing blow would make her an accomplice to the culprit.

>>4202366

>Including you [Erika], there are 17 people on the island

right now with shkannon and moontrice and all that shit, I really can't find the real culprit to be of any satisfaction unless it turns out to be someone like Rosa...

>>4202418
Why isn't the red truth a clue that Kanon is dead? We never know when Kanon dies, and we never see his corpse because it is likely long disposed of.


Also the 10th doesn't outright prohibit disguises, it prohibits disguises without clues. What is considered a clue isn't really specified. Personally I would say that the fact that we never see Shannon and Kanon together from Battler's perspective in Episodes 1-4 is a valid clue (think of it like never seeing Peter Parker and Spiderman together or something, lol).

>>4202469
We know when Kanon died in episode 4.

>>4202478
Where was that stated?

>>4202445
# 殺した全員の頭部を完全に切断したわ。　
# 私が殺した５人全員は、……私が殺す瞬間まで、ちゃんと生きていました。


Go around this with your "reading comprehension".

>>4202478
>Among the five people in Kyrie's group, he was the first to die.

Not really specific.

># In short, he was the 9th victim.

This on the other hand... but it may be tricking with ninth text. So he was the ninth victim but he was already dead to begin with.

>>4202506
>>So he was the ninth victim but he was already dead to begin with.
Contradiction there, can't work.
Also the "in short" is in red, meaning that the second phrase is a direct reference to the first.

>>4202502
That text's from Ep 6.

>>4202514
Maybe he could be the 9th victim according to the Epitaph murder sequence? You know, gouge the whatever and kill.

Quick question about Episode 6, the what exactly does the Red Text pertaining to 16 people say? Does it say "at the start of every game", or is it more ambiguous? Beato was pretty explicit when she lowered the count from 18 to 17 for Kinzo.

>>4202525
Yeah.
I just realized I made a mistake in my initial post by writing "episode 5" rather than "episode 6".
Sorry for the misunderstanding.

>>4202231
>It seems more likely to be that the Shkannon situation is similar to the situation with Kinzo, in that the Kanon we see during the games is a collective lie, just like the Goldsmith

Can't be, as Battler has met him several times. Now, there's the possibility of someone cross-dressing, but we've had reds like these Kanon being the 9th victim, and we've also had reds saying Shannon was there.

I'm sure, if Shkanon is true, R07 has been playing with the red at whim on some level.

>>4202541

I'm not really sure what it says at all, Erika introduces herself as the 18th human on the island, and Battler/Beatrice shoot her down by saying 17. It could just be they're saying she was never there, and that the 5th and 6th games were bullshit (they kind of were, I mean, nobody even died in the first Twilight of the 6th until the 'detective' ran around chopping heads off).

I mean, Erika says she's the 18th human in red. And it is immediately contradicted in red, it kind of... hurts the red for that game a bit to constantly be in question of 'is this valid?' despite the definition of the red.

>>4202541
Erika says she's the 18th visitor. Then Battler and Beatrice say "My deepest apologies, you included, there are 17 people."

>>4202569
>I mean, Erika says she's the 18th human in red. And it is immediately contradicted in red, it kind of... hurts the red for that game a bit to constantly be in question of 'is this valid?' despite the definition of the red.

Actually, it does work. Think about it, there are 17 people in Rokkenjima. However, before the game started, one of them died (aside from Kinzo). So, Erika could be the 18th human, while keeping the number at 17.

>>4202502
All I have to go off of is a shitty google translation:

# I was completely cut the head of all the killing.
# I am killing all five people, killing me ... until he was perfectly alive.

Obviously Erika is the one talking, but from what I've read so far, it would seem that Battler does not confirm the deaths, so it would seem that this is merely a method to confirm the deaths. in which case, if they were already dead, then she didn't kill anyone, since we don't get any details about the deaths, we can easily assume this is possible.

Also, it looks like she's just doing a crazy rant in red the second time. it's been done before.

So how do you solve the Battler-Kanon closed room without ShKanon?

>>4202591

I'm gonna skip through to that part again and create a save there this time...

Honestly though, aside from Kanon's statement on time of death in the fourth game, him being dead beforehand sounds much more solid than this Shkanon nonsense, along with 'personalities can die' bullshit.

>>4202599
Next time, don't use a shitty translator.
Also stated in red there that they were still alive before Erika killed them.

>>4202591
Nope, it would have been as we've seen with kinzo. Since it appears that the person count is set at the start of the game.

>>4202561
>Now, there's the possibility of someone cross-dressing, but we've had reds like these Kanon being the 9th victim, and we've also had reds saying Shannon was there.
Why would the Red consider a figment of Shannon's imagination a person when it didn't consider a figment of Natsuhi's imagination a person?

>>4202570
Really? That's kind of ambiguous. It doesn't specify time when that applies? Its a pretty useless statement in light of that.

Maris is the culprit. All of your Shkannonshit means nothing.

>>4202612
Yes, but up to EP5, our head count always involved a "no more than". So, the head count could have always been lower than 17 from the very beginning.

>>4202614
Red text always apply only during the 2 days, that's when the witch has some "power" after all, when "magic" could happen.
You should have understood this a long time ago.

>>4202614
>Why would the Red consider a figment of Shannon's imagination a person when it didn't consider a figment of Natsuhi's imagination a person?

Yes, that's why I said.

>I'm sure, if Shkanon is true, R07 has been playing with the red at whim on some level.

>>4202628

Because never at any point in the two days does Natsuhi 'talk to' or reference Kinzo.

>>4202628
What? Red is used outside of the game -- for example, before Episode 5 starts, Bern (I think) says "After all, Natsuhi is drinking tea all by herself right there." in Red when Beato and Natsuhi are drinking tea.

>>4202619
>Maris is the culprit

Have you watched the movie Identity?
Just like Umineko, it was also based on "And there were none."

>>4202641
Delusion of Natsuhi.

>>4202651
SMALL WORDS FROM A SMALL ...sorry...

>>4202651

And other figments of imagination are removed from this consideration because it's convenient, right?

I haven't played Episode 6, but can someone confirm or deny whether it is stated in that episode whether the closed circle (the typhoon) can be broken (besides for Erika)?

For that matter, when is the game considered to begin? Does it begin at the same time as the typhoon, or when the family arrives on the island?

6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!

None of the 6 people committed suicide!


All five master keys were discovered, each in the pocket of one of the servants!
The individual keys were found inside envelopes alongside the corpses!
In short, all keys related to the linked closed rooms were locked inside the linked closed rooms!!
The keys cannot be returned from outside the room using the crack of the door, the crack of the window, vents, or any place of the sort!!

It is impossible for the murder to have taken place outside the room!!

The 6 people died instantly!

YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO SOLVE THIS, SHKANONFAGS

>>4202700

I believe it was stated in 1-4 that the game 'begins' when October 4th does. I could be wrong though, I'm not too entirely sure, since really, if you just say 'October 4th', then all this nonsense about humans on the island is shit anyways.

And no, it's never been stated very definitively that the closed circle is unbreakable. (ie, not in red) It's just that logically, no ship captain without extraordinary reason would go to the island during the typhoon, and that crashing is pretty likely.

However, we don't know much about Kuwadorian's port, it could have some architecture that makes it safer to land at than the normal port (harbor? whatever), or some captain could just play the odds and go for it, if paid a ton of money by some sort of playboy that leaves lockboxed money to the relatives of non-family visitors/servants.

Unlikely, but possible, is basically what it's summed up as.

>>4202700
That's the problem, there's no definitions with Umineko to work with. We don't know what the extent of the Game Board is, we don't know whether or not it's possible to enter the game after it has begun, we don't know when it begins, we don't know a lot of shit.

Hell, it's because of the lack of definitions that allows me to create crazy ass theories like the one about a commando unit landing on Rokkenjima and killing everyone because it's never been stated that people can enter the game board after people have already begun to die.

To be completely honest, I find that theory to be a lot more plausible than Shkannontrice. Assuming that Kyrie is the one behind it all, of course.

>>4202708
ShKanontrice.
Also, easy.
The Shannon and Kanon persona die, Beatrice hijack happens, she kills the rest.
Then she complete the closed room circle with the boiler room at the end.

For the chapel, she put a fake body with Kanon's clothes inside, same fake body that was used for Shannon in episode 1 and 2.
Then she goes back to the room where Shannon died by the windows she purposely left open before, close it and play dead.

>>4202734
ShKanontrice has clues scattered in every games.
The whole Kyrie summon a commando doesn't at all.
Once again, that's what the whole "trust between a writer and readers" is about.

>>4202735
>persona

>>4202735
>play dead
>corpses

>>4202742
Never stated that they were all corpses.
Only that five keys were found on five corpses.
But there are 6 DEATHS there, read more carefully.

>>4202742

I don't think it's worth bothering. If we're saying personas can die, anything is possible for any Twilight. Thus, Shkanontrice is easy to solve forever!

>>4202708
.....Once again, I suspect that the Fantasyfags believe in Shkanontrice, and the Mysteryfags seem to have rallied behind Moon-chan.


Regardless, the two theories actually build upon each other.

Moon-chan enables Shkanontrice to have a bro helping her kill fucking everyone, and Shkanontrice gives Moon-chan a useful accomplice.

>>4202739
Actually, there are plenty of clues that suggest Kyrie had some malicious intent here. And the fact that the Sumadera family (which she's never formally left) has been shown to use hired goons to do their work.

I'm not sure why you think there's no basis for this theory.

>>4202746
Yes, five keys on five corpses. Shannon, Kanon, Genji, Gohda, and Kumasawa.

I don't see where you're going with this.

there is no non-retarded explanations for umineko since umineko is retarded

>>4202748
But they can't leave corpses.

>>4202752
>>I'm not sure why you think there's no basis for this theory.
Because there isn't.

Also, Battler solved the game himself, he didn't see the whole Ange business in episode 4 so he couldn't have known about the whole shady business, he never hinted at it.
Therefore this can't be used as evidence.

So, Shkannon... do they gain two people's worth of a payment? Maybe developing DID is a nice business.

>>4202760

Fake corpses!

>>4202755
One key could have been found on Kinzo's burned body.

>>4202749
Well, I actually was a fantasyfag, and I believe in Moon-chan.
Note well that "belief" in this instance means that I believe that she's a complete asshole who is going to kill us all.

>>4202771
>All five master keys were discovered, each in the pocket of one of the servants!
>>4202770
>All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!!

>>4202775
That's the master keys.
Actually I read it wrong before and it's even easier than I thought.
Master keys found in the pocket of the servants doesn't say if they were dead or not.

And the individual keys found in envelopes alongside the corpses doesn't say how many envelopes there was or if they were all alongside servants.

>>4202461
Bro, bro, Moon Chan is not Beatrice.
Moon Chan is just Jessica being a sociopathic liar!

>>4202766
That's really faulty reasoning there. Simply because he never saw it doesn't make it completely incorrect and unusable for the rest of the story.

In fact, that'd be really fucking shitty writing on Ryuukishi's part. Half of episode 4 is completely pointless is what you're saying. In fact, most of Ange's purpose in the story (what little there was of it) is useless then. Why even fucking bother describing the world of 1998 if it's all completely useless?

Oh but the fact that Battler never sees Kanon and Shannon together at any one time when he's the detective suddenly means that Shkannontrice is correct. Right. Of course.

>>4202802
Episode 4 isn't meaningless, it have hints to what magic was all about after all.
But for the mystery, it would be really shitty writing if Battler managed to solve it using information that he doesn't have.

>>4202749
I hate both Shkanon and Moon-chan as culprits.

Dunno what you mean by 'fantasyfag' and 'mysteryfag' though.

>>4202833
Oh, twas a term used back in the day.
But I think people are too quick to think that being a culprit = killing everyone.
There can be, and most likely is, multiple factions.

In fact, in episode 4, you can clearly see that Kyrie and Jessica are playing against each other.
When Kyrie calls up Battler on the phone, she randomly asks him if Jessica is dead.

ITT: Overrated Shit

>>4202841
you REALLY don't have anything better to do after all

>>4202837
I still don't know what you meant by it though. I guess mysteryfag is somebody who only wants to solve the mystery, but what is a fantasyfag? And why can't you be both?

>>4202829
It's magic, he ain't got to explain shit.

We, as the readers, are trying to solve it. We know that the Sumadera family has the ability to pull shit like this off. Of course, most people choose not to remember all the details that point fingers towards Kyrie because they're being distracted with crazy theories like Shkannontrice and Moon-chan or whatever. They're red herrings, and extremely attractive ones at that.

>>4202854
Oh, well, back in the day Mysteryfags were the ones who focused on the board, noting inconsistencies, and Fantasyfags tended to use the Meta to explain things.
Like, while a Fantasyfag would deduce that because of Red Text X, Y is the culprit, a Mysteryfag would instead use things that are inconsistent to solve things.

A healthy dose of both is advised, but there tends to be people who focus more on one than the other.

>>4202861
Moon-chan is not a red herring, that bitch lied.
Her being Beatrice a red herring, sure!
Her being the mastermind a red herring, possibly.

But her being innocent in this clusterfuck? Absolutely not.

>Erika says she is the 18th person
>Battler corrected her by saying that there is only 17 people
Someone besides Kinzo was already dead

I'm glad Shkanontrice is the culprit. I was so disappointed when Shmion was only a killer and not the true culprit. Then it turns out Takano was the culprit just because she was 'suspicious'. It'd be like making Kyrie the culprit just because she's 'suspicious'.

Shkanontrice makes sense and was a popular theory from the beginning. It's nice when that sort of solution is the correct one rather than some convoluted nonsense.

>>4202786
Oh really? Well how about this red text?

Only the victims are inside the rooms, and no other people exist inside the rooms!

>>4202883
>Shkannontrice
>not convoluted

Nigga you high.

>>4202883
>>Shkanontrice
>>Not convoluted
Yes, the murders are occuring because Battler broke a promise with a 10 year old girl, which caused her to develop not one, but two separate personas, which somehow leads to her killing everyone on the island. That's not convoluted in the least!

>>4202883
>>Shkanontrice
>>Not convoluted

>>4202735
>Beatrice she kills the rest.
no

where can i download op's pic?

>>4202896
Loli Kanon is moe.
But yes, FUCKING STUPID doesn't even begin to describe it.

Translated doujin where?

>>4202829
Battler solved it after Ep5, and as you say, he didn't see Ange's future events of Ep4. But if we're to believe R07, it should be solvable after Ep4. I'd suggest there should be something in 1998 that would allow us to solve the mystery before Battler. I don't think the bottle letters, Maria's diary and the envelopes are red herrings. Of course, I don't remember anyone hinting towards a Sumadera crack squad existing in Ep5 (or 1-3) either. I barely remember Kyrie saying or doing anything in Ep5.

>>4202881
Erika's not a person.


What? It's a guess. I wouldn't put it past R07.

>>4202928
See, it seems like those who support Kyrie as the mastermind are just basically cross-applying Takano's shenanigans to Umineko.

I doubt he'd use the same trick twice.

>>4202928
Featherine solved it by episode 2.

>>4202933
Again, it was stated in red that her presence raised the count by one. Erika existed as a human on the gameboards of Episodes 5 and 6.

>>4202933
Uh.....people that don't exist can't cut off other people's heads.

>>4202937
Featherine is a fucking genius. (Oh, and her human form, Hachijo Tohya, is Ryukishi07's author insert.)

>>4202937
Nah, Featherine THINKS she solved it.
She is making Bern the game master to see if she is correct.

>>4202928
I can't remember the exact part, but I remember Kyrie acting awfully strange after Battler finds the gold. I wish I had a screencap of a few suspicious scenes, but she definitely is happy that Battler is being considered as the next heir by the rest of the family.

Mostly because with him being a direct Sumadera descendant, the family can get access to the Ushiromiya family's fortune. Which was Kyrie's plan, after all, until he decided 6 years ago to screw the rest of the family, forcing Kyrie to have Ange to get another stake in the family's fortune.

>>4202944
R07 wishes to be the middle-aged girl?

>>4202954
Um, dude... Kyrie was probably already pregnant with Ange by the time Battler left the family.

Your idea still works, though, because Kyrie was not aware of Battler being her biological son.

Erika: [RED]「初めまして、こんにちは！ 探偵ッ、古戸ヱリカと申します！！ 招かれざる客人ですが、どうか歓迎を！！」[/RED]
Nice to meet you, I'm the detective, Furudo Erika! Though I'm an unexpected caller, please give me a warm reception!
[RED]「我こそは来訪者ッ、 六軒島の１８人目の人間ッ！！！」[/RED]
The eighteenth human of Rokkenjima!
Battler: 「…………申し訳ないが、」
... My apologies, but,
Beatrice: [RED]「そなたを迎えても、」[/RED]
Including you,
Battler & Beatrice: [RED]「「１７人だ。」」[/RED]
There are 17 people.

The only thing that I don't really get is the 人目 in Erika's line about being the 18th human. She says 18th human of public perception, or something along those lines. 人目 means public gaze, public notice, the public eye, that sort of thing.

>>4202961
Actually the game implies Ange was born before Asumu even died.

>>4202964
> She says 18th human of public perception, or something along those lines. 人目 means public gaze, public notice, the public eye, that sort of thing.
Ah, I think I see what R07 did there. If Shkanon is indeed the case, then Kinzo may have done some paperwork meddling to have Shannon and Kanon legally be two separate individuals; that is, separate birth certificates, separate paychecks, etc. Thus, to anyone trying to gain information from the outside world, it would seem like they were two separate people.

It might be different from that, but I think it's something along those lines.

>>4202906
>>4202927

>>4202985
Rather, to the outside world, they ARE two separate people.

>>4202883
Indeed. I felt robbed when the yandere in Higurashi wasn't the culprit. Good thing the yandere in Umineko is the culprit this time.

>>4202961
>>4202966
I don't remember this ever being mentioned. I know that 6 years prior, Asumu died, Rudolf married Kyrie, Battler renounced his family, and Kyrie had Ange. The exact timeline for those events, I don't believe, was ever mentioned.
Could be wrong though.

In any case, it still gives Kyrie a reason for having Ange: a direct descendant who can claim the fortune.

>>4202964
"Me" after person simply means that it is the 18th person. It is basically the "th". Don't think of "ninme" as some kind of kanji composite

>>4202991
>to the outside world
you mean the world that does not matter in this game ?

>>4202964
>>4202985
Actually those kanji don't form a word in this context.
So it's (１８人)目 instead of 18(人目), where 目 acts as a counter word.

>>4202985

Yes, in this way the two red texts narrowly dodge contradicting each other, upholding the validity of all red text. Erika's is pretty much meaningless, while the 17 is the only important part there... Hell, in this way, Erika's existence even positing she's technically there at the beginning of each game is forgiven, considering episode 4 stated there are no more than 17 humans on the island, which very well could've included delicious drowned corpse Erika on the shore or something.

I'm just confused as to why Erika would state it like that, rather than simply attempting and failing to say she is human number 18.

Things I find weird about Kyrie:

1- Kyrie was gouged in EP 3 by Mammon and in EP 4 Ange said the police found Mammon's stake while investigating. Even if Featherine wrote EP 3 and 4 she told Ange she wanted to give hints, so this is an interesting inclusion.

2- In EP 5, excluding Battler, Kyrie was the only one who told Erika to stop playing detective when she was trying to investigate Hideyoshi's room. No one else has shown a negative reaction to Erika besides Battler until this point.

3- In a prelude were we see all the adults talking with each other before Rokkenjima, Kyrie mentions having connections to Kyoto friends and narration says that Kyrie could easily throw all her compassion away and become cruel if needed.

4- That phone call in EP 4 screams suspicious. After Battler, Kyrie is probably the one who denies magic the most. Yet she goes on the phone and starts calling him. Even more so she was dodging a ton of Siesta shots, which should have an almost 100% accuracy (technically their accuracy is 97%).

5- EP 6 she tells Jessica straight up that she would kill people that opposed Rudolf or her relationship with him. She even considered murdering Asumu and would have done it, if Asumu didn't die on her own first.

6- In EP 4 when Beatrice declares Kanon dead she also says that he was one of the 5 members of "Kyrie's group". Now this could mean the prison group in the Kuwadorian or maybe something else?

7- EP 6 Kyrie literally creates a closed room on her own, which is confirmed by Ronove (it follows the definition for Beato's Closed Room in EP 3). This could hint that Kyrie can create closed rooms, which may mean she planned all the mystery rooms.

8- She urges Battler in EP 1 to solve the mystery of Maria getting the umbrella and the letter. She may be going against the mastermind she began to work for at that point, which may be why she got killed in EP 1 so early.

>>4203000
>implying Shkannontrice is a yandere

Um hello - I think we're forgetting the true yandere of Umineko here.

>>4203009

Eh... Than how can she say that? Stating she's the 18th human as I had in my pretend-correct translation, would that not directly contradict there being only 17? It's... a bit confusing.

>>4203018
I think she actually figured out the truth at the very end, but too late to win the duel. So in a way, she was actually prompting Battler to confirm it.

>>4203009
But what about the full bit? "１８人目の人間"? Does it mean "18th person from the perspective of humans"?

>>4203037
Kyrie is as much a yandere as Takano was a yandere for her grandfather.

No, no. Old people yandere is lame. Only the deep love of a disfunctional teenage girl can truly be considered yandere-y.

>>4203024
Also, Kyrie thinks romances > mysteries. And we all know what the theme of Umineko is...

>>4203050
Kyrie might be in her 40''s, but she looks like she's in her 20's dude.

Hot milf yandere >>>>> retarded "TRUE LOVE FOREVER" teeny bopper yandere

>>4203050
Dude, Kyrie was planning on killing Asumu, and would have gone through with it if Asumu hadn't died first. How is that not yandere?

>>4202329
Infinite Erika Crisis.

>>4203042
It gets even more confusing if you try to add the "Beatrice" personality of ShKanontrice on this pile.
If other personalities were really counted seperatly, there would be 19 people.

>>4203064
Because she's old. Old people aren't compelling enough to be labeled as a yandere, which is always a compelling character archetype. Why, it made boring ol' Shannon into the awesome Shkanontrice. But Shkanontrice is a teenager so it's okay. Unlike Kyrie who is old. Anything of her that seems to be yandere is just plain old person jealousy.

>>4202445
You could break it if disturbing the corpse during the expected investigation by a detective was the "fatal blow". Splinter a millimeter from the heart etc.

But still, that's a LOL HAX detective novel, and the detective isn't the murderer perse as the person who positioned the bodies such to die on movement is the murderer.

>>4203073
im with you bro
inb4 lol she didnt existed officially
Shannon and Kannon arent their official names either, judging from that they can fuck themselves

>>4203061
BY rule, the older you are in umineko the better you get
Kinzo>>aduls>>>>>children

>>4203078
>this is what japan really believes

Hey, hey, wait a tic.
The Beatrice persona was made to make the original person be able to achieve love.
And yet, Shannon and Kanon say that as furniture, they can't achieve love.
There is something wrong with that.

Erika is not a person. She is a piece. It's not the same. Therefore, she isn't included in the count. That's what Battler and Beato's red truth meant.
Mystery solved.

>>4203099
With you, there's 17 people, dear Anon.
And she's the culprit for episode 6.
It's not that simple.

>>4203078
>old people aren't compelling enough to be labeled yandere.

So none of the adults are compelling in any way? You do realize that most development has been given to the adults rather than the children right?

Kyrie is definietly yandere. Jealous people do not normally plan to kill the people they are jealous of. If that was the case then a huge part of the population would be dead and another part in jail.

>>4203093
Episode 6 implies that neither Shannon nor Kanon was the original personality, and that their creation was the result of someone's sin. Most likely the creation of Beatrice caused something to happen to the original personality that resulted in the creation of Shannon and Kanon.

>>4203112
Well we don't know what happened after she sawed the heads off, so we don't know if she killed everyone else too.

>>4203050
Yeah, uh, love! The culprit clearly did it for love.
That makes things ok, right?

>>4203120
Most likely she didn't kill anyone else. But then MANSION EXPLODES EVERYBODY DIES

>>4203073
This,
but ShKanontricefags always ignore it when their stupid theory goes against the red.

>>4203118
I know, but that would mean that Shkanontrice should be Shkanonpersonxtrice.
But the issue is that Beatrice was made to have Person X be able to move on with their life and achieve happiness, not to just stop exisiting.
Ergo, it doesn't add up.

>>4202708
Zombie Kinzo Corpse.

>>4203145
>>4203073
ShKanontrice doesn't work against this red.
Look at his translation once more.
Public notice meaning an official existence, Shannon and Kanon are both separate in that case.
Beatrice doesn't because she doesn't have an official existence.
It's pretty simple, think harder.

>>4203145
But going by how Erika states it, her count is according to how the outside world would see it. And the outside world has records showing Kanon and Shannon as separate individuals (under the names "Yoshiya" and "Sayo", of course), with no records at all for someone named "Beatrice".

>>4203165
But, Piece Beatrice does exist, she appeared in episode 4 in front of the detective, and he identified her as such.
You are the one who needs to think harder.

>>4202775
Which became fatal is pretty key here. You can die of a gut shot and still keep going for hours.

In before Kyrie cuts the ears of Erika to "Stuck in the Middle with you"

Also, From Another Time Another Land.

>>4203180
Official existence, public notice, do you know what this mean?
Really, try to think a little.

>>4203047
It just means "18th human". Since japanese is very strict with the words you should use to count things sometimes phrases come out with parts outsiders find unnecessary.

If we were to represent the whole phrase mathematically it would be (18 * (counter for people/humans) + (ordinal number modifier)) * humans.

Stop being stupid, guys. Everybody knows the mastermind is Nanjo sensei.
- Episode 1: Kanon's Alibi, alongside Jessica.
- Episode 2: Does Battler ever see Nanjo's and Kumasawa's bodies?
- Episode 3: Again an alibi for Kyrie/Hideyoshi.

>>4203191
I am thinking. I think it's rather ridiculous to pick and choose when personas count as people and when they don't, and I think you're scambling to explain it with something half-assed.

Battler recognized Beato as Piece in episode 4.

>>4203165
Now that's just conveniently making shit up as you please.
If you claim that Erika exists as a human, then the exact same logic should apply to Beatrice, after all, she's seen by Battler and kills people.
The existance of the young Beatrice, i.e. the original body of ShKanontrice, is further confirmed by Rosa.

>>4203165

That 'public gaze' thing was just a little note I tacked on asking people that actually knew Japanese, which was answered. It was just something I was confused about because I don't know Japanese, don't read into it, I really don't want to be the source of supporting something about Shkanontrice, even if that part severely confuses me as to the seeming contradiction without that little annotation.

>>4203196
Doctor Is Never the Culprit.

Nanjo is an accomplice, nothing more

>>4203206
Think of it this way, you have an some papers that prove that you exist.
Shannon and Kanon also do, therefore they also exist "officially".
Do you think Beatrice does too?

>>4203214
I said mastermind. He wouldn't dirty his doctor's hands when he could have someone do the work for him.
Of course, this theory implies his plan backfires a lot.

>>4203214
Well, the BUTLER DID IT is one of the oldest cliches known to man, but, uh, you Shkanontrice people seem pretty dead set on it.
Course, a Moon gentleman like myself knows better.

>>4203191
You still have the problem of Kinzo not being considered "alive" by the red though. He was still alive in the public eye.

>>4203165
>Beatrice doesn't because she doesn't have an official existence.
She does, thats why i think that Maria was the most sane person on the island.
Oh Yeah and Natsuhi does too.
Also Kinzo.

>>4203218
Erika doesn't have any papers either.
17 vs. 18 people riddle solved with Erika again.

>>4203218
Oh, so Erika bases her judgement on official documents instead of the beloved detective POV she rambles on about?
And this is stated, where, exactly?
That's right, it isn't. You really like pulling stuff from nowhere, don't ya?

>>4203212
Erika has been proved to exist as a human as her own person several times.
And she does exist "officially", see her character data.

It's completely different for the Beatrice we see that could very well be one of the character dressed up that way.

And I never denied the existence of the Beatrice seen by Rosa who DIED 19 years before the game.

Seriously, are you guys retarded or something?

>>4203206

To be honest, I don't think episode 1-4 Battler has the same 'detective authority' Erika has in episode 5. Erika can tell people to shut the hell up, waltz into crime scenes and do whatever she wants. Battler never exercised those rights. Battler also seemingly sees Beatrice step out of the portrait at the end of episode 1, a physical impossibility, and at that point he certainly wasn't accepting of the witch (ie, revoking his authority like at the end of episode 2 or whatever happened there).

Moreso, episode 3, Nanjo's death. Battler sees the corpses of Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kyrie, Krauss, Natsuhi, and George. It doesn't seem too possible with his detective authority that Nanjo was killed by someone short of 'lol personalities dying', which is retarded.

I believe Battler's viewpoint is reliable, but that he's not immune to tricks. Erika's viewpoint seemed to work like this in episode 6, and she remarks multiple times how it's difficult to work from the same position Battler did, having to manipulate the adults to gain access to running around crime scenes and a key and whatnot rather than just being able to yell 'gimme gimme gimme'.

>>4203238
Erika exists, she is a poor drowned girl who disappeared just before the 2 days.

>>4203240
Not Erika, the red text.
See the TRUTH OF THE FUTURE SHAPES THE PAST.
You guys can't read between the lines to save your life, right,

>>4203246
>It's completely different for the Beatrice we see that could very well be one of the character dressed up that way.
You are the one claiming that she exists as another personality or some shit, not us.
The original personality even, which most definatly exists as a real human.

>>4203231
Truth of the future shapes the past.
The police or some detectives probably realized that Kinzo died before the 2 days thanks to one of the servant who was on a vacation.

Has anyone ever considerd that Piece Beato in episode 4 could have not been a persona, just a person trolling Battler?

Like, really.

>>4203262
I'm just going on a "general" tangent there.
Of course I think she is part of Sayo's crazy mind.
And the identity of the original is definitely Sayo, this identity was later hijacked by Shannon.

>>4203269
She said things as only the real Beatrice (aka the one Battler was talking to 6 years ago as seen in episode 6) could know.

>>4203189
>The 6 people died instantly!

>>4203248
I agree with you for the most part, but you've got one thing wrong.
> Battler also seemingly sees Beatrice step out of the portrait at the end of episode 1
That's never stated at all. What Battler sees is someone standing in front of the painting, who just happens to look exactly like the person in the painting.

In other words: Most likely the exact same person Battler meets in Episode 5.

>>4203265

Fuck, I should've just emailed someone asking about it, you assholes are getting way too wrapped up in this 'official existence' crap.

>>4203269

Yes, unless you believe Battler has absolute detective's authority, in which case it either has to be a persona, or a real Beatrice. This mandates either her arriving on the island after some people have died, or simply 'being' there without taking up a human slot. Or there are two people that don't 'exist' like we think they do.

>>4203253
THE TRUTH OF THE FUTURE SHAPES THE PAST
means nothing. It doesn't mean that what people believe in the future has an actual effect on what happened, and it doesn't mean the red text is determined by what people in the future think.
All it means is that if everyone believes that Rosa killed everyone on the island using a red herring, it MIGHT AS WELL become the truth.
Not IT BECOMES the truth.

>>4203284
I've been forcing the whole "official existence" crap for weeks now, it's not new.
It's the one way to solve the 17 vs 16 riddle I can see.

An easy way to solve the 18 vs 17 riddle:

He did not say it was exactly 17. Therefore, the number could be higher than 17. Mystery solved.

>>4203285
>>it doesn't mean the red text is determined by what people in the future think.

So what determines the red text?
Witches? Magic?

>>4203282

Ah, you're right, now that I think about it. He simply sees 'the subject of the portrait', not where she came from or whatever.

My original theory for 1 (I'll probably revise it some time) had Kanon dressed up as Beatrice there... I don't like that now since I hate Shkanontrice to death, but I suppose I should put aside my hate to think about what it possibly could be.

>>4203311
Definition of words.
What is a person, what isn't a person.
Oh yeah, you can have personas, go nuts.
If Beatrice can't be a persona, too bad for you, Shkanontrice fag. You're the one trying to justify the DID Meido, not me.

LAST RIDDLE: WHAT REALLY HAPPENED !
Retarded Edition:

1) Battler is in Danger

2) Kannon-man to the rescue !

3) Panicked Battler mistaking Kannon with the killer almost suffocates him to death but realizes in time.

4) Battler senses Erika coming in and hides inside the closet with Kannon

5) Kannon dies because he is a little low on AIIIIIIIIIIIR

6) While Erika is searching the bathroom Battler gets the fuck out of there and hides the corpse

7) Erika does not find shit

FIN

>>4203307
Yeah of course the number of people was used for the first time without "less than" bullshit and was even used as a fucking cliffhanger but it actually meant that.
Are you fucking serious?

Also solve the Kanon-Battler closed room without ShKanon then.

>>4203265
But the Red Truth isn't subjective.

>>4203301

Well then I'm sorry I brought it back up, I don't think it works at all, it's like picking the word ice out of Battler always saying nice and pretending he uses icicles as a disposable stabbing tool to cover his tracks.

>>4203329
Sophistry like this can't work, otherwise Battler could have said "I am Ayumu's child".
He was raised by Ayumu and always considered himself as her son after all, yet it didn't work.

Only the official thing can work.

>>4203347
>Ayumu

>>4203347
No, he could not say it was from Asumu that he was born.
Not that he is her child.
Try again, retard.

>>4203280
Given how facetiously hermeneutic we've gotten about japanese linguistics:

Death is always instant. The wounds leading to death can take as long as they like. But the nature of death itself is that you are alive, and then instantly after, you are dead.

Gutshot survives, admittedly without "love".

>>4203339
>Also solve the Kanon-Battler closed room without ShKanon then.

How can you even solve it with Shakanon? Kanon enters the room, and then he's no longer there because he dropped his Kanon persona? I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.

>>4203362
Beatrice clarified her statement immediately after: the victims could take as long as they wanted to die, but as soon as the wounds were inflicted they were effectively unable to move.

>>4203367
Considering Kanon completely disappears without a trace, that's the only way.

>>4203362
That's it, I give up, this is getting ridiculously retarded.

>>4203362
Oh, really? You really are going to stretch the words like that?
They DIED instantly.
Died as in Dying, the process of going from alive to dead.

Really now, some mastermind you are!

>>4203375
It doesn't make any sense, mate. You're just forcing a theory in order to solve a closed room.

>>4203387
Well try to solve it then, any idea would be nice.

>>4203383
It looks no more facetious than the linguistic limbo y'all playing in here.

>>4203387
A theory that nobody has been able to come up with a good alternative to.

>>4203332
Why does that sense ?

>>4203376
>>4203383
Wow, two Moon-chans?
Really?

>>4203392
Keep in mind that it's stated Kanon never left the room, then stated that Kanon does not exist in the room.

Also, Battler couldn't have killed Kanon and then dragged his corpse out with him, because someone had to stay behind and lock the chain lock.

>>4203392
I don't have to come up with a theory to tell you yours doesn't make any sense.

>>4203395
That doesn't make Shkanontrice any more correct.

>>4203393
Well, no, it does, because the definition died means to have gone from alive to dead.
Died instantly means that the damage that caused them to start dying caused them to become dead instantly, as opposed to be dying for an extended period of time.

Really, even with your absurdly twisted wordplay, it doesn't make any sense.

>>4203332
Can't work, Erika search in the entire room.
Only way she couldn't have found Kanon is if he had kept moving from one hideout to the other while she was searching in the bathroom.
Corpses can't move, do they?

>>4203417
Again, Beatrice even admitted that it didn't necessarily mean they _actually_ died instantly, just that they could no longer move their bodies once the wounds were inflicted, and that their actual time of death may have been minutes later.

>>4203395
The room blew up via remote detonator. Kanon does not exist in the room because the room does not exist anymore because it blew up. He didn't leave the room either, it blew up and he died.

>>4203420
yeah i know, and im aware that the closet was the last thing she checked.

Since ShKanontrice is very popular in Japan too, I wonder how their theories about it are.

>>4203417
No, dying instantly means that their death was instant. Its a tautology.

Their wounds killed them instantly is non tautological. It introduces new information.

You're reading this distorted piece of Nip word play crap with far too much love; and, apparently a thing for a horrible blonde dyke.

Lets hear your linguistic dance to ensure your moon shit goes down?

>Only way she couldn't have found Kanon is if he had kept moving from one hideout to the other while she was searching in the bathroom

Sounds familiar

>>4203425
So long as they can't move, it's the same shit.

>>4203432
I wonder if they hate it as much as we do.

Didn't Ryukishi get upset that people couldn't figure out Umineko or something? He must be happy these days. We all figured out the game with Shkanontrice, one episode ahead of when Episode 7 would reveal everything.

>>4203395
Same exact type of thing happened with the pony theory, bro. And look how that turned out.

>>4203436
but this time the one in the room was the detective and the other person existed

>>4203339
There's a few things you can do. There's the 'Kumasawa' Kanon theory, or you can break the closed room down. The second part will have to wait until some real translations show up though.

>>4203438
At the very least they accepted it more peacefully.

>>4203434
Heh, you are mad, aren't you?
But I believe another poster summed it up quite nicely.

"Again, Beatrice even admitted that it didn't necessarily mean they _actually_ died instantly, just that they could no longer move their bodies once the wounds were inflicted, and that their actual time of death may have been minutes later."

So for all intents and purposes, the equivocation is meaningless. The wounds inflicted means the person can't do shit.

>>4203455
>>There's the 'Kumasawa' Kanon theory
Can't work, the identity are exclusive by person, stated in red.
Meaning as, during these 2 days, referring to Kumasawa can only refer to the Kumasawa we know, etc...

Of course one person can have several identities, see episode 4.

Basically one person can have 2 or 3 identities but 2 persons can't share one identity.

>>4203457
They're cool with Shkanontrice? No wonder why we keep getting shit like this.

My god, I have proved this bullshit to be untrue so many times it is ridiculous. Drop this stupid fucking theory and think of something better.

>>4203483
Love you too, nams

>>4203480
They aren't cool with Shkanontrice, most of them believe in Jessitrice and/or Shkanon.
This is mostly homebrew stuff.
Ever hear of the concept of the vocal minority?

>>4203483
For once, I agree.

>>4203483
Go back to /v/. Let the adults discuss the finer points of Shkanontrice.

>>4203483
You never did.

>>4203478
>Basically one person can have 2 or 3 identities but 2 persons can't share one identity.

So, Kanon can also be Bob and Marley, but he cannot be Battler and Shannon?

>>4203445
waiting till he says that Shkanontrice doesn't exist/isn't related to the murders
Time left: 7 months
Because even if Shkanon is true, there's no proof that actually says they're the culprits or killed someone, just some a posteriori proofs

>>4203488
Shannon = Kanon = Beatrice is the dominant theory now in 2ch.
You should visit the threads more often.
Jessitrice is more of a joke theory.

>>4203483
Break EP6's closed room then. That is the theory's greatest strength.

>>4203492

Easymodo that shit, my brother. You will see it to be true. Try not to cry too much.

Sauce on OP image?

>>4203502
I remember your shitty arguments, it was about the fake body.
Too bad it was never specified that Shannon didn't have body double.
Not like it's even close to the crux of this theory.

Go back to /v/.

>>4203494
It's that whole "no one would mistake a different person for Kanon" thing, basically.

>>4203501
>Break EP6's closed room then.

Kanon entered the room, let Battler out, then he closed it, and then he died due to small bombs.

How's that?

>>4203483
OP here, I hope you are right Namimi. I'm not personally a Shkannon supporter, I'm just tired of people going "lol multiple personalities" and then refusing to think any more.

>>4203513
body doubles and tricks like that were negated by red, thx that it didn't say the games it applied to, it can be applied to ALL games

>>4203507
http://www.mediafire.com/?kjnnz4wdlun

>>4203513

Isn't there a bit in Ep 1 where Kanon is in the boiler room, we see his thoughts.

Under Knox's laws, this eliminates him as the culprit.

Just one more argument to shovel your shkanon shit back where it came from. Think of something better.

>>4203532
So, Namimi, what do you think about this whole Moon-chan thingy, anyways?

>>4203532
>Under Knox's laws, this eliminates him as the culprit.

Yeah, normal Knox. Not Umineko's Knox.

Beatrice is seen by the detective in EP4 therefore her existence becomes official.
Shkannontrice tricks ? probably but the 3 personalities are seen and acknowledged by the detective during the course of the game.

>>4203523
For the unidentified corpses only, in episodes 1 and 4.
Shannon's corpse was seemingly identified.

>>4203536

I haven't heard it, but I'll probably find a way to prove it's bullshit.

Fuck your theories. Mine are better and they are secret. I will prove my theories to be correct by proving all yours incorrect, and never revealing the truth.

>>4203530
Thanks!

>>4203542
>Beatrice is seen by the detective in EP4 therefore her existence becomes official.

Not necessarily if that was someone in disguise.

>>4203532
Kanon isn't the culprit, the Beatrice persona is.

Each personality has his own thought, that's how DID works.

>>4203530
This is the only valuable thing in this thread, and thus, it shall be the only truth.

>>4203542
Official doesn't work that way moron.
Shannon and Kanon both works, receive a paycheck and most certainly have their own papers, therefore they exist officially.

Do you think Beatrice has her own ID card?

>>4203517
Yeah, okay, but how did Kanon leave the cousins' room?

The door and window were both sealed up by Erika, and the seal remained unbroken. It remained a closed room until the last minute.

Basically, Battler, Natsuhi, Maria, Rosa, Eva and Kyrie are all confirmed in red to be in the rooms that they're listed in here.

Shannon, Hideyoshi, Kumasawa, Nanjo and George are confirmed in red to be the only people in the room next to the cousins' room.

And then 'everybody else is in the cousins' room' in red, basically. Ryukishi was purposefully vague about Kanon's location, but he can only be in the cousins' room (or the room next to it, if Shkannon is true.)

Red on the image represents sealed by Erika.

>>4203550

Can't you understand what a seperate sentence is? It says all unidentified corpses are guaranteed, that's one statement.

No body double tricks is a different statement. It means there are no double tricks at all.

>>4203553
Moon-chan isn't really a theory as much as it is "JESSICA SURE IS SUSPICIOUS, I BET SHE'S UP TO SOMETHING"

>>4203561
Meh, I am of the opinion that Shkanon(tricelulz) is being used.

>>4203561
>Each personality has his own thought, that's how DID works.

Except that you cannot create personalities, and that's pretty much what Beatrice is.

>>4203582
Moon-theorist here, this.
And yet people warp it to mean that she's Beatrice, or the second Battler, or something....

>>4203560
Shkannontrice is based on disguise aswell. so it kinda of works.
Which is a human being assuming the appearance of the another person. Thats it.

>>4203577
You missed the "THEREFORE" in red, that is better translated as "basically" or "to resume".
The second line is a direct reference to the first, "therefore no body trick exists for the unidentified corpses".
That's how red text works.

>>4203588
I still like my theory that Evatrice's origin was a hint to Beatrice's. After all, Virgilia implicitly parallels between them when she stated that, unlike Beatrice, Evatrice was satisfied with existing as a witch on the gameboard.

>>4203606
*implicitly makes parallels

>>4203575
>receive a paycheck and most certainly have their own papers, therefore they exist officially.
God this atlas translations really kills the game.
Scene of that stated ?

>>4203620
Seriously, most of this thread is just people derpin around because they haven't read Episode 6 yet (me included).

Remember all the stupid shit we came up with while we were waiting for Episode 5 to be translated? Like the Gold=Absolute Truth or crap like that.

>>4203603

The therefore is completely irrelevent. It still states that no body double tricks exist, not just ones in relation to the aforementioned unidentified corpses.

>>4203620
Simple logic.
You know there was a tons of investigation, and that nobody found Shannon and Kanon's presences weird.
Just put 2 and 2 together.

>>4203658
The "therefore" makes all the difference, that's how Beatrice uses the red text as a weapon.

How did Erika behead all of them without getting blood splattered on her?

>>4203705
Enchantment!

>>4203576
Like many, I haven't seen the full red text for this episode and I don't particularly want to accept Shkannon(trice) despite all supporting evidence, so I've been going for the Kanon died in the closet theory, either by stabbing or shooting himself in the head, which would tie into his fantasy guesthouse death scene above. Please correct me where I'm wrong.

As for leaving through the window of the closed room, it seems only five people can do it: Shannon, George, Hideyoshi, Kumasawa and Nanjo. However, Battler's room is also a closed room, sealed by tape on both sides. Battler's closed room can be entered if someone unseals and reseals it entirely, though it still fits the definition of a closed room. Why couldn't the same apply to the room with Rudolf, Krauss, Jessica, Genji, Gohda and Kanon? Kanon opens the seal, goes into the next room and leaves through the window, then someone reseals it. I assume there's red preventing this but I'd like this to be confirmed.

>>4203715
I KNEW IT

SANDAL WAS THE CULPRIT ALL ALONG

>>4203680

You're interpreting it wrong.

>>4203667
>You know there was a tons of investigation, and that nobody found Shannon and Kanon's presences weird.
whats your point ?
Remenber that Shannon and Kannon are their MEIDO names and ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES BEARING THE "NON" DESIGNATION.

>>4203718
>Battler's room is also a closed room, sealed by tape on both sides

No, only the window was sealed with tape in Battler's closed room.

Also, Erika's seals break. So, you cannot reseal them.

>>4203715
Oh shit, it all makes sense now.
Kinzo is Flemeth. He wants to use Battler to regain his youth.

>>4203745
Battler = Morrigan?

HE WAS THE WITCHES ALL ALONG

>>4203718
I'm okay with Kanon dying inside of Battler's room, the hard part is getting him out.

Please excuse the Atlas translation. With regards to the cousins' room:

RED - (Dlanor) 「……不可能デス。 窓も封印を維持していマス。 無論、ロジックエラー時にデス。」 - "...... Impossible [desu]. The window also maintains the seal and the mass.
In of course, [Desu] when logic makes an error. "

I'd like to see the actual red text regarding this room instead of this stupid (most likely assumption-filled) picture.

>>4203718
>closed room can be entered if someone unseals and reseals it entirely
I'm pretty sure this goes against the definition of a closed room.

>>4203761
The picture sums it pretty well.

>>4203761
There's a lot of text that's been extracted, but it's only translated via Atlas at this point.

>>4203758
Is there a deadline for getting him out of the room? I'm not really familiar with Ep6 yet. If there isn't a deadline you could just say that the room was destroyed by the bomb so he never had to leave.

>>4203736
Try to think a little by yourself seriously, I can't hold your hand forever
Investigation = LET'S LOOK INTO THE LIFE OF EVERYONE WHO WAS ON THE ISLAND.
If they had found out that way that Shannon and Kanon existed as only one person even though they were supposed to be 2 people, they would have found it weird, no?

But they didn't, Shannon and Kanon, meaning Sayo and Joshua are still considered as separate in the future, meaning that there must be some proofs of their separate existences.
That's all, doesn't get simpler.

I love when Namimi enters these arguments, because it invariably turns into:

-Tripfags uneducated theory
-Legitimate counterargument refuting that theory
-"You're wrong" "You aren't reading it correctly" "LOL SHUT UP I WIN"
-Repeat ad nauseum

>>4203778
The deadline is Erika breaking the closed room by entering, closing it again immediately and proceeding to search everywhere in the room.
She doesn't find anyone or anything and it's proved in red that Kanon isn't in the room anymore.

>>4203811
I'm confused, how does Shkannon solve this closed room then?

>>4203778
Um, yes. Battler definitely left the room, it was definitely Kanon that let him out. There's plenty of red that reinforces it.

It's kind of a huge portion of the story, so I'll try to summarize it.

Erika enters the room, starts searching for Battler. Opens the bathroom door, water shenanigans happen and distract her, Battler escapes during that time.

Battler was originally going to have Kyrie or somebody come in and swap places, but Erika killed them. Because Battler refused to reveal how it was possible for Piece Battler to escape the room (as it would be revealing a piece of Beatrice's heart) Lambda and Bern called bullshit and declared it a logic error. Meta Battler was locked in the room and tortured.

Later on Beatrice confirms that it was Kanon who let Battler out. Battler no longer exists in that room. Furthermore, Kanon did enter the room, he never left the room and he does not exist in the room. Only Erika, Battler and Kanon entered.

>>4203830
Doesn't say that there is no one else in the room.
Erika isn't omniscient.
Basically she left the closet last, someone could have easily hidden in it, she went to check the bathroom leaving enough time for that person to hide in another place.

>>4203835
Where is Shannon during all this?

>>4203792
Ok lets see if you can convince me
>If they had found out that way that Shannon and Kanon existed as only one person even though they were supposed to be 2 people, they would have found it weird, no?
Why would they find it wierd ? There would be probably a psychological expert (if they are doing an investigation into the victims lives they need one) within their ranks which could actually understand whats going on.

>>4203858
Being Kanonlol.

If she's not Kanon, she was just chilling in the room. If she is, she assumed the Kanon identity, let Battler out and either left as Shannon or hid out in the closet as Shannon. I don't really know the specifics.

A bomb exploded and the room was destroyed.

/thread

>>4203871
I think a crazy person with DID could be thought as a dangerous person and a good choice for a culprit.
Even if the police decides this is an accident, there was still lots of private investigations going.

The fact that we never got a glimpse of someone thinking that the crazy person with DID could be related to the incident is for me a good proof.

>>4203887
RED - (Beato) - 戦人を救出したのは、間違いなく嘉音本人である。」 - The rescue did : Battler, It is correct and it Kanon himself. "

Unfortunately, even if that is true, Kanon definitely rescued Battler. That won't solve the mystery.

Okay, so, Shannon is in the room next to the cousin's room. Then she leaves the room through the window (super maid). And then, for some reason, enters Battler's room as Kanon, then, once Battler is out, she drops the Kanon persona.

What?

>>4203925
Alternatively, the Kanon personality is already "dying", and simply lasts long enough to get to the guest room, let Battler out, and hide in the closet before being absorbed by the Shannon personality.

>>4203925
Something like that.

>>4203925
Fatass George jumped from a second story window also, so that's apparently not as dangerous as it sounds in the Umineko world.

And the irony is, after all this time, there is not a better theory than Shkannon for that single closed room. Kanon rescues Battler, locks himself inside the room, but he is not in the room. Those are the facts.

>>4203934
>Alternatively, the Kanon personality is already "dying", and simply lasts long enough to get to the guest room, let Battler out, and hide in the closet before being absorbed by the Shannon personality.

What? Personalities don't die.

>>4203947
Yes, but George did it when no one was looking. I really doubt the people in that room would have let Shannon do that.

Also, you don't need another theory to call Shaknontrice ridiculous. All you need is a bit of common sense.

>>4203905
That mansion was full of mentally unstable people, they/her/he was only one of them.

>>4203962
You need a theory. Because any theory you come up with for this room will be even more ridiculous than ShKanon. Good luck~

>>4203971
RED - (Erika) - 「いとこ部屋は完全な密室が最後まで保証されています。 - "It is and is guaranteed a complete Closed Room as for [toko] [bu] shop to the last minute.

Kanon left during that 'last minute'.

>>4203962
>Also, you don't need another theory to call Shaknontrice ridiculous. All you need is a bit of common sense.
I am of the mindset that some theory is better than "lol iunno." I agree that it is fucking stupid, and if the author wasn't Brain Parasites, Convoluted Bullshit Ryukishi, I would not even consider it. Forgive the pseudo-meme, but I truly would not put it past him to make this theory true.

>>4203971
Nope, I don't need a theory to call bullshit on yours.

>>4203978
Congratulations on solving the room.

>>4203978
> Kanon left during that 'last minute'.
Then who locked the chain lock behind him? Because it wasn't Erika, and it sure wasn't Dlanor.

>>4203978
/thread

go home folks nothing to see here

>>4203982
I suppose you don't, but you'll just look like an idiot if you still can't come up with your own. If you dismiss any claims of Shkanon as "retarded, via common sense", you should at least have the courtesy to solve the closed room. Otherwise you're saying it should be unsolvable because common sense dictates it's retarded to solve.

Really, how pitiful~

>>4203998
Different room we're talking about, I think

we're talking about the cousin's room

>>4203978
Now try with a better translator.

いとこ部屋は完全な密室が最後まで保証されています。 - As for the cousin room the complete closed room is guaranteed to end.

>guaranteed to end.

>>4203962
>What? Personalities don't die.
I don't know why all the Shkannonfags are so insistent on "killing personalities". I still say that even if DID Kanon is the truth, Shannon still existed as a separate person at some point in time. See EVA's web of red in EP3, where she lists 15 people, including both Shannon and Kanon, and then says "The 15 people mentioned are dead". People, not personalities.

>>4203988
If you have any objections to it, you know where to find me. I'm going to go make dinner right now though.

>>4203998
That is in regards to Kanon leaving the cousins' room, not the guest room (where Battler is).

>>4204009
>>4203978
Enough of these online translators, can we get a REAL translation?

>>4203979
>I am of the mindset that some theory is better than "lol iunno."

Sure, it'd be nice to have an alternate theory that makes sense, but just because there isn't doesn't mean that I cannot point out the holes in the current one. Honestly, I could solve any closed room in any mystery, if I started lumping multiple characters in one.

>I agree that it is fucking stupid, and if the author wasn't Brain Parasites

Yes, but a hallucination-inducing virus, even if it is far-fetched, is far more solid than Shkanontrice. Not to mention that the fact that some sort of drug was used was clearly stated since Onikakushi. However, this changing personalities, then dropping them and counting as dead that way simply doesn't make any sense. If that's how it is, then Higurashi is 10x a better mystery than Umineko, even if it completely raped the Knox rules.

>>4204010
inb4 huge ass bullshit discussion about the definition of a person aka WHAT IS A MAN ?

>>4204010
> I don't know why all the Shkannonfags are so insistent on "killing personalities".
Because, if you go by Episode 6, that's exactly what happens. "Only one couple can achieve the miracle of love," "their souls are less than those of a human, so they must gain that of the other," etc.

>>4204009
Exactly. I've made that point before, but that Lucifer girl must be ignoring it to annoy me. You can also add that

>"Going in and out that doesn't take off a seal, It doesn't reach say over again, Impossibility and being possible to revere learning [].!"
>"Dear Sir/Madam, I say respectfully. Know that neither has been broken and receive. ""
>"Sealing of not breaking, Know that whose going in and out is proof of the refusal who are thing and receive not yet. "
>"...... Impossible [desu]. The window also maintains the seal and the mass. In of course, [Desu] when logic makes an error. "

At the time of the logic error. So the whole time, the room was sealed, and nobody left.

>>4204033
A MISERABLE PILE OF DELUSIONS

>>4204001
>I suppose you don't, but you'll just look like an idiot if you still can't come up with your own.

I'd rather look like an idiot for being unable of solving the closed-room, than being one for coming up with a completely far-fetched theory.

>>4204037
>using ATLAS translations of red text to try to disprove a theory

Episode 6: Dawn of the Golden Witch

* Translation: 0%
* Editing: 0%

>>4204050
The red won't just go away when witch-hunt translates it for you, so you can accept ShKanon now or later. If you like, I can rephrase the broken translation so it's clearer for you.

>>4204072
It won't go away, but I will know what it actually means and not what ATLAS thinks it means.

>>4204072
Please do

>>4204034
I meant as it pertained to the Red. Maybe Shannon died, and Kanon took on her personality out of grief or guilt. Or maybe it was part of a coverup of Shannon's death kinda like what the OP said, and Kanon had been forced to imitate Shannon so much that it actually caused a separate personality.

>>4204037
>So the whole time, the room was sealed, and nobody left.

How does Shkannon solve this?

You know, the whole point of adding those knox rules was Ryukishi's way of saying that their isn't some ridiculous solution to the mystery. This is even worse than small bombs.

>>4204110
*there

>>4204081
I can even give you the Japanese.
1. Cornelia - 謹啓、謹んで申し上げる。 どちらも破られていないものと知り給え。
2. Gertrude - 破られていない封印とは即ち、未だ何者の出入りも拒みたることの証と知り
給え。

1. 謹啓 (Dear/sir madam), 謹んで申し上げる. (I say respectfully.) どちらも破られていない (neither have been broken) ものと知り給え。 (let it be known)
This is referring to the two seals on the cousins room door, and the door next to it.

2. 封印を破らずしての出入り (going in and out without breaking the seal) 改めて言うに及ばず、(needless to say again,) 不可能と知り奉れッ (I know is impossible, and present it.

If anyone knows Japanese they can translate it, but I doubt it's wrong. I've done more than just going over each line once with ATLAS to look for holes.

We can't really do quality theorizing until Witch-hunt -

>0%

Fuck.

>>4204160
MEANWHILE, AT WITCH HUNT

>>4204109
Shannon was in the other room. The one that was never confirmed to have remained sealed.

>>4204109
The locations of everyone was confirmed in red like this: (note that Erika specified that the life of death status does not matter, she just wanted to know where they were. This is because Battler was avoiding confirming any deaths)
- This room will be referred to as the cousins room, and this room as the "next room".
- The six victims of the first twilight are where they were discovered. Natsuhi in her room. Eva in an honored guest's room, Kyrie in Krauss's study, Rosa and Maria in the drawing room, you (Battler) in the guest room.
- The people in the next room are Hideyoshi, George, Shannon and Nanjo.
- Everyone else is in the cousins' room.

Later, Erika reveals that she cut off the heads of the victims of the first twilight to make sure they weren't faking their deaths. A perfect autopsy.

Next, Gertrude and Cornelia confirm the seals on the cousins room and the room next to it have not been broken, and it's impossible to leave them while the seals are in place.

Next, Gaap argues to Dlanor that Kanon, for example, could rescue Battler by using the window instead, the window's seals weren't confirmed.
Dlanor then confirms in red that
-The window in the cousins' room also retains its seal. Therefore, Kanon saving Battler through that window is impossible.

Dlanor however refuses to confirm the seal for the window in the next room, so it should be possible for anyone from that room to save Battler.

However, it's confirmed in red.
-Kanon was the one to save Battler.
-The definition of saving is entering that room, switching places with him and setting the chain.
-At the time, only Kanon, Erika and Battler, three humans, three bodies, entered that room.
-Only Kanon entered
-Only Battler left
-Battler is not in the room
-Kanon is not in the room

>>4204201
OK, I really have no idea what is going on, I'm just gonna wait 5 months for a translation.

>>4204204
Ignoring the mystery of how Kanon escaped from the guest room, Kanon first needs to escape the cousins room. However, he was only said to be in the cousins room because "everyone else" was there. However, if he was Shannon, and therefore not included in "everyone else", then he could be in the next room, and therefore could simply use the window that was not confirmed to retain its seal.

>>4204109
That is in regards to the cousins' room, not the room next to it or the guest room.

>>4204204
> Dlanor however refuses to confirm the seal for the window in the next room
Dlanor being a bro?

>>4204204
Kanon isn't in the room
Joshua is

>>4204233
Gaap was being taken away by Siestas for not having a proper pass for the wedding or something, and she shouted to Dlanor to accept her theory that someone from that room could have rescued him, but Dlanor tells her to file paperwork for it that will be addressed within 6 weeks. Gaap calls her a coward. Not really bro material.

>>4204253
It still doesn't solve how Kanon was the one to rescue Battler in the first place. That's only a solution to one part of the mystery - how he got out of the guest room after saving Battler. It doesn't explain how he escaped the room he should have been in, in the first place. Which is the hard part. There are plenty of explanations for how he got out of the room Battler was in, like
-Joshua was there, Kanon wasn't.
-Battler switched between referring to ShKanon as Shannon and Kanon.
-The Kanon personality no longer existed for whatever reason.
-Kanon killed himself

>>4204210
Why would they be considered the same person here, and different people at other times by the red?

>>4204277
The same way Erika is able to refer to herself as the 18th person as the outside world would see it, while Battler and Beatrice can state that, including Erika, there are only 17 people.

>>4204261
She's not a coward, she just didn't want Gaap to get in the way of the delicious Dlanor/Erika/Comatose Battler 3-way that was immanent.

>>4204277
Ask Ryuukishi. At the end of episode 6 in red:
Erika: Hello, nice to meet you. I'm the detective, Furudo Erika! Though I'm an unexpected guest, please welcome me! I am a visitor, the 18th human of Rokkenjima!
Battler + Beato: Even counting you, it's 17 people.

>>4204277
Because they're allowed to use a really twisted definition of the word person.

I don't like it, though. That's so weak.

>>4204297
Wasn't there some sort of trick in Erika's statement though? I remember some anon mentioning it earlier in the thread.

>>4204304
It IS really weak and I hope there's more to it than that. I mean, we could literally take any statement in the Red and say that R07 is being a troll by using equivocation (intentional logical fallacies, lol) and that it could mean whatever.

>>4204347
I don't see any trick. Those two lines should help you realize the word "person" is played with.
Japanese:
Erika: 初めまして、こんにちは！ 探偵ッ、古戸ヱリカと申します！！ 招かれざる客人ですが、どうか歓迎を！！
Erika: 我こそは来訪者ッ、 六軒島の１８人目の人間ッ！！！
Battler+Beato: 「そなたを迎えても、」 「「１７人だ。」」

>>4204369
Oh you. There's no need for sage, the thread is will past its bump limit.

>>4204412
So it is. I just have a habit of using sage.

>>4204417
Perhaps noko would be more appropriate.

>>4204432
I also have a habit of just going back after posting and never using noko.

>>4204447
I do that too, admittedly.