/jp/ - Otaku Culture

The personality was 'killed' in that room.

/jp/ always seems so certain about this theory but I'm at a loss given the above

The "personality" was killed in that room? Really?

>>4887999
Really.

Eh. Not sure how I feel about that.

So hey /jp/ if Shannon and Kanon and Beatrice all count as personalities and there are only 17 people on the island including Erika yet Erika is able to say there are 18 as well, what happens to the Beatrice personality?

Cause you know if personalities count as people why does the third personality in Shkanontrice just not count for no reason?

>>4887999

THAT LEVEL OS REASON IS POSSIBLE FOR...

While I've got an Umineko thread in the early pages, has anyone gotten onscripter to work on a PSP?

>>4888038
>Reading Umineko in a PSP

>>4888031
Because the theory is fucking retarded, that's why.

>>4888070
Well it's not like we have to worry about graphics.

>>4888031
Sage Anon, please explain this.

>>4888090
just the sound

>>4887999
Yes...look at Kara no Kyoukai.

>>4888070
>Reading Umineko

First was best.

Here what I think: Kannon and Shannon were two diffrent people prior to the game and Kannon was killed before the game started and now Shannon pretends to be him.

This theory actually doesn't work with the red text, but I just refuse to believe the personalities being killed bullshit.

Shkanontrice folk: are you sure you feel safe buying into all of the wild bullshit you've heard about Kinzo's personality from other characters who all have reasons to lie?

>>4888251

Better than "I was watching umineko in my PSP and..."

>>4888276
Yeah that's another theory. It works in some games, but not others.

>>4888031

Still waiting on an answer.

Where are all the Shkanontrice fags?

>>4888031

you need to explain better, I didn't even get what you're trying to ask

I'm all for Kanontrice, also seems to be the only way to limit the personalities crap.

>>4888251
>Not reading Umineko

>>4888397

Battler/Beatrice say there are 17 humans on the island with Erika.

Erika says that she is the 18th person.

Now, I understand how Shkanon can work with this if you count personalities as people. Kanon can be the 17th person sans Erika in this.

But, why exactly doesn't the Beatrice personality count? Erika should have been the 19th person, then.

>>4888408

>Defending reading Umineko

>>4888415

Maybe two doesn't exist...
Maybe Maria doesn't exist, she's just an imagination...

>>4888449
Or maybe Kanon and Shannon switch places with each other so nobody knows who is who.

There were no clues to shkanontrice in episode 1 through 4.

>>4888415
>>4888449
>>4888460

This is why I hate the Shkannon debate. For that theory to work you have to be holding the red to a double standard. I made a long analogy about this once in the past, but the whole thing boils down to this:

If you can say "So and so is dead" with the red, then conversely you should also have been able to say "So and so is alive" before that person (or personality) died. We can't have a person be 'dead' if they were never 'alive'. So EVEN IF there is some multiple personality tomfoolery going on, it should not be able to skew the red. 17 people is 17 people.

Which, in all honestly, makes the whole idea of Shkannon kind of redundant. Whether they are separate people or individuals, it has no bearing on the "17 people on the island".

So basically- Shkannon can technically work... The question is "Why bother with such a deception?" It's not fooling the red (and in all honesty, that's metagame thinking. Shkannon shouldn't have such a motivation anyway), so what's the goal of this whole ruse?

Kanon is Asumu's Battler & Natsuhi's son.

Officially Rudolf only had one son named Battler.
But he actually had two. Asumu's Battler, and our Battler, who's probably Kyrie's son.

Therefore depending how you count Battler is either one or two people. >_>


Either that or Genji's a robot. :P

>how can Shannon and Kanon be the same person if red text says "Kanon was killed in this room" and Shannon is standing right there?

LALALA I'M NOT LISTENING!

>>4888712
His age seems a little off. Remember, the child that Natsuhi tried to kill should be older than Jessica, and maybe Battler too. She even calls him the child from 19 years ago.

Granted, we don't have any real proof of his age, but still, everyone that sees Kanon thinks he's about 16. Though if he were actually a girl it might make sense... But I don't really buy it.

Then again, just because he -claims- to be the child from 19 years ago, doesn't mean he IS. The caller could have wormed that story out of anyone connected to Kinzo. And Natsuhi wasn't certain about the gender of her mystery caller until the caller claimed to be that dead baby. It's entirely possible that the caller was actually a female masking her voice.

Personally, I kind of suspect Jessica was our mystery caller. Remember. This person was able to get 6 people, including Krauss, to go in on some crazy faked death scheme. And then detain Krauss and kill him, and the rest of the 'victims', at their leisure.

If you just look at the events of Episode 5 and try to think about "Who could have set this up?" "Who got everyone in the family to play along with this?", Jessica's name ranks at the top of the list. The adults don't trust each other. The servants don't have the initiative or respect from the family. So it had to be one of the cousins who got everyone else on board.

So, Shkannon are the personalities, and Beatrice is A GAME OF PRETEND.

>>4888712
>Either that or Genji's a robot.
**Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board**

>>4888885
You know, doesn't this preclude the idea of other personalities as well? Or does a figment of a screwed up person's imagination count as a 'human'?

>>4888863
But Jessica is dead too. And all deaths were homicides.

>>4888917
We don't know when she died, or what the circumstances are. Could be someone else (like Kanon or Shannon or Kyrie) got wise to her shit and put her down. Maybe she played into someones hands and didn't kill anyone at all.

But my argument that she was the most likely person to organize it stands. Who else could get Krauss and Genji to play along with some stupid game? Everything happening throughout Episode 5 screams 'set up', but for this to work practically everyone (aside from Erika) has to be in on it.

SOMEONE who was aware of the finer details of the plan used it to mask the fact that the 'victims' were really murdered. And this same person is the one calling Natsuhi (who didn't know about the plan) and stringing her along. Oh yeah, and despite the obvious trick used to frighten Natsuhi, this person also managed to hide a slip of paper with 'fall' written on it into her room. That makes the list pretty short. And if Shannon said "Hay, let's stage a murder mystery!" she'd probably just get slapped in the face.

Seriously guys, are you still trying to find a decent logical explanation for that clusterfuck?

Kanon is dead at the start of every game. The 'Kanon' we see isn't Kanon himself, but rather, Shannon disguising as him.

Is there any red that contradicts this?

>>4888959
Ep4: Kanon was the 9th victim
Ep6: Battler, Erika and Kanon are in this room, and they are three different people.

>>4888959
Episode 4.

>>4888964
What if Kanon was dead before the whole thing even started? In this room, too. It passes all red text except for "9th victim", which can be interpreted in thousands of ways.
I'm not supporter of either theory and gave up solving umineko long ago so no prejudice please.

For reference, here is the text: http://jbcs.info/Umineko/ep2.html#b+4_1PHIeaQugJV+wvG8Mg

>>4888955
Jessica has been dead before Natsuhi went to closet.
First of all, they all have to be on this together. All servants, parents and Battler. They all claimed to have seen at least one corpse, when it wasn't a corpse.
Either that or they are all retarded, because they can't distinguish dead body of their relatives/fellow servant from some fakes at close range.
If they are all on it, then there's no need for them to persuade anyone of the victims to play along with this plan. They can just confine them somewhere and prepare fakes in their beds. They weren't going to kill them, the reason of this plan was to make Natsuhi acknowledge the absence of Kinzo and make Battler a new head. Then there were probably some unforeseen consequences and the real murderer appeared and killed them. The servants obey them, because they serve the family head, and the new head is Battler.

That's why a while ago I thought that this episode may be just some bullshit in which Lambdadelta manipulated the pieces in a strange way to make them act retarded like that. The abundance of "words of power from the higher world to which the pieces couldn't disobey" spoken trough out the whole episode and the fact stated that witches abuse the gameboard in many various ways can be a hint that this is not good episode to actually solve. It just gives some meta-hints and more importantly it becomes clear that all characters can lie, because pieces can't do things thats are not in their nature.

>>4889062
I'll grant some points, but it's been made expressly clear that there are no 'fake bodies'. And sure, Jessica was dead by the time Natsuhi went to the closet. So what? Natsuhi hadn't received a phone call from the killer in hours. Krauss was killed right after she heard him over the phone. And Hideyoshi OBVIOUSLY faked it, so Jessica didn't have to be there either. She could have planned things, killed the other victims, been killed, and things would still work out fine.

Also: those were the real people lying in those beds (except for Krauss, since he wasn't in it. Either he wasn't party to the plot but was made to look like he was, or he was kidnapped by the killer in order to threaten Natsuhi). After the family made a big deal over finding the bodies (and making sure Erika didn't examine them too closely), they all left in search of Kinzo, and the 'victims' went someplace else to hide.

The killer met them there and made them REAL murder victims. Or the killer was among them and was killed at a later date by someone else. And no, Episode 5 isn't even remotely solvable on its own. But the first 4 episodes gave us a bit of an idea who to keep an eye on.

>>4889249
It was made clear only that there are **no corpses exist except those of characters who have appeared in the story.**
Who said that the "victims" actually were in their beds? It could be dummies with red paint. Erika never have seen them to claim what they really were.
As for disappearing "corpses", Rosa was with the rest of the adults on this plan. She went to the guesthouse early that night and told/made them to prepare dummies or told/made them to come to a different room and stay there and prepared the dummies herself. Then in the morning, after the the main group has left to the mansion, she came and cleaned up the place. Genji's "corpse" Erika didn't witness even through a blanket like the rest corpses in the guesthouse, so it's possible that there were just red stains and no "corpse"/dummy, just like Krauss's room.

WHAT IF WE FORGET ABOUT THIS AND ASUME THAT EVERYONE IN THE ISLAND IS JUST CRAZY?

The roses in the rose garden are actually drugs. That's the "hidden gold", you have to sell it to make the money. In family conference, they inspire the polen, that contains drugs, and everyone got crazy. No one died(yet), they just think that they died. In the first twilight of episode 1, for example, they found 6 druged people. Then druged natsuhi asked "rudolf, what are you doing?" and druged Rudolf said "shhhh, we're all dead and our heads are smaaaaaaashed ;;". First twilight explained, also explained why everyone can see witches and demons. Too easy, let's start to solve Inu no Naku Koro Ni

>>4888401
I'm all for Kanontrice, it makes this scene very, very ironic.

>>4890367
whoops wrong image.

The more interesting question would be why all the parents lie about Kanon's corpse in ep3, but Skannonfags will just answer like that >>4888723 anyway.

>>4890706
FACT 1: Shkanontrice is a personality suicide machine, it can kill them conveniently
FACT 2: everyone is on iut so there's no need to tell anybody, nor look surprised, nor tell George, Jessica or Battler and all that.
Shkanontrice logic

>>4890706
The biggest question is WHY were the closed rooms made this way.
Why were all the bodies separated?
Why was so important to find them in a specific order?

>>4890706

That, or they try to say Rosa and Kyrie move Shannon's body, except they never have a chance to do it because they're shown in the guest house right after they leave.

Also, they never explain how they fudged the schedule. Kanon can't have been a different person that died and Shannon took his name- "The only one that can claim Kanon's name is the original person"- so Shannon must have been Kanon for 3 years.

How the **** do they fool people on the island for 3 YEARS? Natsuhi tried something similar for a minuscule FRACTION of that time, and everyone was already getting suspicious.

Furthermore, Natsuhi would surely make sure all the servants that knew about Kinzo's death would gather together before she gave instructions, because it's very important and she'd want them all to understand what to do.

So either everyone and their freaking mother is in on Shkanon besides Battler or it's impossible to explain.

And Ryuukishi has never, ever, not once skimped on details like the, well, details and logistics of how a cover story will go.

Goddam I will fucking enjoy you guys tears when the next episode will be released.

>>4890726
>FACT 2: everyone is on it so there's no need to tell anybody, nor look surprised, nor tell George, Jessica or Battler and all that.
Then the next question. WHAT THE FUCK? Don't tell me that they all crazy.

>>4890800

You mean the Shkanontricefags tears, right?

Cause they're the only ones that cry and moan about anything.

>>4888415

>Battler/Beatrice say there are 17 humans on the island with Erika.

>Erika says that she is the 18th person.

I'd need someone to confirm my suspicion for Shkannon/trice but it's probably some bullshit that , in the context of Umineko, humans and people are not synonymous with one another.

>>4890270
>WHAT IF WE FORGET ABOUT THIS AND ASUME THAT EVERYONE IN THE ISLAND IS JUST CRAZY

Kinzo's last order to the servants was to mix LSD and mescaline with the food during the next family meeting. Hence why they see witches and stuff : they are all tripping balls.

>>4890827 I'd need someone to confirm my suspicion

This someone needs to be familiar with what kanji are used during that scene is what I was trying to say. My mistake

>>4890827

Yes, that's the assumption people are working on. It fits the definition of the word, too, at least in English.

Person means 'personality'.

But the issue is that if Shkanontrice is true, it leaves out one of the personalities, because if there were 3, Erika'd be the 19th person.

>>4890857

Yeah, I noticed that myself. The only thing that comes to mind would be that Red Truth that Erika entered with that says that her existence does not change the outcome and events in any of the games or whatnot.

>>4890827
It seems that part already translated but commented in the script:
六軒島の１８人目の人間ッ！！！#ffffff」/
;`the 18th person on Rokkenjima!!#ffffff"`/

「#ff0000そなたを迎えても、#ffffff」\
;`"#ff0000Even counting you...#ffffff"`\
「「#ff0000１７人だ。#ffffff」」\
;`""#ff0000There are 17 people.#ffffff""`\

I can't believe I have to spell it out again.
There is 18人目, as said by Erika
There is 17人, as said by Battler and Beatrice.

Notice how the word used isn't the same?

人 literally means human, there is 17 humans on the island.
人目 is the word used to count people, it also literally means "public view"

Basically there is 17 humans on the island yet 18 as seen by the public/world.
See the difference?

Shannon and Kanon are considered as 2 persons by the world, that's pretty much obvious.
They both receive a pay and even 12 years later nobody seems to think that their existence is strange.

So they fulfill both criteria, they are seen as 2 persons by the public but are really 1 human.
Beatrice obviously doesn't fulfill this criteria if ShKanontrice is true, she has no official existence as seen by the world.

>>4890827
god dammit!!!

But that's the base for the Shkannon and Jessicatrice theories, so...

>>4891010

WROOOOOONG.

Several people believe in Beatrice and say she exists. What are they, if not the public?

>>4891040
Do you fucking know what "official" mean, retard?

>>4891048

So if you're not registered with the government, you're not a person?

Surely even you would recognize that's fucking retarded.

Damn Shkannon is retarded.

>>4890943
六軒島の１８人目の人間
The eighteenth human on Rokkenjima

そなたを迎えても、１７人だ。
Even if we welcome you, there are seventeen people.

>>4891075
It only means that you can "create" a person by registering it in the officially.
Embezzlement affairs, fake votes, etc..., it happens all the time.

Red text doesn't lie, officially Shannon and Kanon exist as 2 persons so the red text can work for them.
Beatrice is at the same level as an imaginary friend, the red text can't refer to her in any definition of "人目", it can in Shannon and Kanon case.

There, is it spelled out enough for you?

>>4891010
>Basically there is 17 humans on the island yet 18 as seen by the public/world.

Not only is this fucking stupid, it's also an incorrect usage of the word 人目. You can't have eighteen public eyes, it's not a counter when it has that meaning.

>>4891152
It can have that meaning "18 as seen by the public", the Japaneses agree.
There is a reason why the majority of the Japanese fans believe in ShKanontrice.

Yeah but we can safely discount the public eye bullshit anyway since. Well, that would be like committing story suicide to use that

>>4891181

No, it can't.

Stop spouting lies to try to back up your argument.

bump

YOU'RE ALL JUST GETTING TROLLED BY THE AUTHOR

>>4892699

Ryukishi07 is bern?

Why did Kanon leave no corpse? Why does he never leave a corpse?
Why did Kanon appear before the servants after, but was "not Kanon" in a way?
Why does Beatrice appear in a room that's closed from the inside with only Shannon and George and Gohda there, then summon Kanon?

The answer? Jessitrice.

>>4894145
Kanon left a corpse in episode 3.

In episode 4 replace Kinzo's burnt corpse with Kanon and you have the answer to your Beatrice troll.

>>4894169
>Kanon left a corpse in episode 3.
lol no. Battler didn't see shit.

>>4894180
It was said in red get over it.

人目。

人目 【ひとめ】 (n) public gaze; public notice; (P); EP

>>4894185
Get over that Kanon = Shannon, it's been obvious since episode 2, stop with your Jessica = Battler and Kinzo's name = conveniently inherited shit. Japanese fans believe it. R07 likes to play with the word "person", simple as that.

>>4894207
It's not the only fucking solution get off your fucking high horse and see that. Not all the fans beleive shkanon that's a lie okay? Ever since episode 5 people have also been denying Erika because her actions have been like a witch using info she shouldn't know and such.

And just because it's been suspected since episode 2 doesn't make it true if anything it makes it even more of a redherring and trap.

>>4894235
>herp, Erika doesn't exist even though the red says she does everywhere, makes more sense than Shkanon guys! Shkanon is the most retarded theory of all time and has absolutely no evidence.

>>>>4894235
>redherring and trap.
You're still thinking this? We're at episode 6, there aren't any traps left. Except Kanon.
"There is no longer any difficulty level. By now, this is not a hint, but a confession."

>>4894252
You just said Ryu like to play with word person and now it's not okay to use other theories like Jessica = Battler and Erika doesn't exist?

Like I said get off your fucking highhorse. Shkanon isn't true until it's said in red that Shannon and Kanon are the same person. Until then it's just a theory.

>>4894207
>Japanese fans believe it.
about this, wasn't there one interview with R07 which he said something about many fans sent their theories to him, and very few is on the right track

>>4894275
R07 isn't going to say everything in red for those who are too stupid to figure it out for themselves. He basically told you in episode 6. He told you clearly that Kanon rescused Battler from the room, even though he couldn't, but Shanon could, he told you clearly that there are 17 people including Erika, he told you clearly Erika counts as a person, but you keep trying to say "oh, even if it includes Erika, that doesn't matter since she's not a person." That is a confession. A confession that there were only 16 people on the island, because two of the people are the same. But you keep trying to escape it, by redefining what names mean, like "Kinzo" means "Kanon" and "Battler" means "Jessica".

>>4894289
When was this? Besides, just saying "shkanon" doesn't even come close to solving anything. So even if they know that, it doesn't mean they will make a good overall theory.

>>4894303
There is a blue truth seal on the window of the neighboring room that Shannon was in. Nobody left through the door. If I assume Kanon is an individual person I can just say he escaped the location check somehow during the gap in time. If I assume he's Shannon I have the problem of him not being able to leave via the window.

>>4894303
Oh and by the way this was the same problem Erika came to when she theorized Kanon's real name was George. He's in the same room as Shannon and he can't escape the location check by having a different name and being in the neiboring room. He can't leave through the window either.

>>4894270
>>4894303

Hey guys.

Higurashi, Tsumihoroboshi-hen.

BOY THOSE ALIENS SURE EXIST DON'T THEY?

>>4894332
No, if you say he is Shannon he can escape by any method at all as long as it is not the door.

If you say he was in the cousins room which he should have been, you can't, because it is said to be a complete closed room in red.

How are these retarded Kanzo/Jesiller theories supposed to explain the red:
All names refer only to the actual people!

"Oh, Kanon is actually Kinzo, so yeah"? But Erika tries to use the same argument by saying Kanon's name is actually George, but she gets shot down with this very red. This red tells you that when Beatrice says a name, she means that name, she doesn't mean some small bombs crap about inherited and double names that people use to work around the truth.

>>4894361
R07: If you read Higurashi, solving Umineko will be harder than you.

Anon: Cool story r07, let me just base all my Umineko reasoning around Higurashi.

>>4894372

olo what you said having nothing to do with anything.

Tsumihoroboshi was also said to have no difficulty. It presented the aliens thing as the solution, and tons of people believed it.

That doesn't mean Shkanon is false, because Umineko =/= Higurashi. It DOES, however, mean that everyone needs to stop asserting it as 100% fact, NO OTHER POSSIBLE ANSWER, because it can very easily be wrong.

>>4894121
Ryukishi is Featherinne

>>4894121
BT was ghost writing Higurashi and Umineko all along. That's why his story quality has dipped lately.

>>4894388
It has everything to do with it.

"lol, you guys are stupid, just look at higurashi." Besides, I don't think we're going to find out witches are real at the end. R07 laughs at the stupidness of higurashi's "mystery" himself.

>>4894451

No, it doesn't.

No one said that Ryuukishi was going to do the same thing as Higurashi, so it was an utterly pointless thing to quote.

The fact is, just because something is presented to be obviously true, doesn't mean it's true.

>>4894507
It does when the only other possible answers are just plain stupid, and don't really answer all the red about the situation. On the other hand, the only red argument against Shkanon is from other episodes about completely different situations, where they are counted as people.

Of course, conveniently ignoring the red at the end of episode 6 which proves there was some trick there.

>>4894527

That red is what destroys Erika utterly. How could it have anything to do with Shannon/Kanon?

>>4894527
People have found Other ways to get around that red without Shkanon. And you seem to forget that this red is what denied Erika out of existence. Regardless of who it was that lowered the count.

>>4894557
>>4894563

I've always wondered why the red was a 'final blow' to Erika if it had nothing to do with Erika, myself.

So, Shkanonfags, why DOES it erase Erika?

>>4894527

You best not be implying 'DID that can be turned on and off and killed at will' isn't even MORE fucking retarded.

>>4894584
>You best not be implying 'DID that can be turned on and off and killed at will' isn't even MORE fucking retarded.

This is another thing that makes Shkanon retarded.

It's ONLY purpose in the mystery is to get around red text, which people on the game board don't know about.

So what, exactly, does Shkanon switch personalities for in the Ep6 closed room, or in Ep2, or in Ep143363454 at -that specific time- that just happens to make the mystery harder?

>>4894584
refresh my memory, what was EXACTLY what erased Erika?

>>4894584
It doesn't erase Erika. Bern sent Erika to the worst kakera, like she said she would in episode 5. I'll play a favorite card of you denialfags - where does it say in red it denied her? She was already bleeding everywhere at that point. Since you love taking up tiny points and acting as if they mean anything, why does Beato grin trollishly when she says that, when she had nothing to do with Erika's creation? I guess that's big enough evidence to say that it was her own trick. Why does Battler ask Beato if it's okay before the two of them say that? Because Erika is a mystery Beato doesn't want to be revealed? When she was in a coma the whole time in episode 5? No. Because he's about to reveal with her, one of her actual tricks.

What part of "even if we welcome you" don't you understand? It means "even if we count you". ie, "even if you are counted as a person." It doesn't mean "even if we count you (oh but we don't count you since you're not a person or we do count you but you're 0 it's okay guys Shkanon is not true relax).

>>4894734
There are 17 people
If you were to count Erika, there are 17 people

>You cannot trust any testimony that is not the detectives, for the detective is the only one obligated to have an objective opinion and tell the truth
>Everyone else on the island reacts to Erika as if she exists
>Erika herself does not say she exists
>No, Bruce, you are the ghosts

>>4894728

Why did Erika get sent to the 'worst kakera' because of that, though?

Why did Erika lose?

That's a HUGE hint to her. At that point, it opens up more than it closes for Erika. It was the final blow to Erika- WHY?

>>4894734

Someone should look up what 'even if' means.

It means 'no matter what'. Meaning, with or without Erika, the count is the same.

>>4894758
No, there are 17 people if you count Erika.
Therefore, there are 16. This retarded argument that meta-Erika was killed and therefore she counts as 0 on the board is just that. What about the people who were dead by that point? Are they also supposed to count as 0? In that case, we have 5 unexplained people.

>>4894773
Why did she lose? I don't know, because she couldn't solve the closed room, because all she could do is say "lol, Kanon = George"? "lol, can you confirm in red that Battler and Kanon are different people"? All her theories were just like the crap used around here to escape Shkanon.

No, it's not because of the last red, she had already failed by that point. Her proclaiming herself as the 18th person isn't going to help her solve the room.

>>4894773
Someone needs a course in English.

Guys, guys, let's all stop fighting now.

Here's the simplest reason why Shkanon can't be true: It's fucking stupid.

And here's the reason why Erika-doesn't-exist is true: It gets rid of possibly the most annoying character in existence.

QED.

>>4894829
>Someone needs a course in English.

I agree, you do.

http://myword.info/definition.php?id=even_if_1-a

>Indicates regardless of a situation

>>4894851
quickest QED ever.

>>4894851
>And here's the reason why Erika-doesn't-exist is true: It gets rid of possibly the most annoying character in existence.

Not only that, it gives her whole CHARACTER a purpose.

As it is, she just pops up to give Battler another adversary to fight with not explanation. If she is a fantasy character, she is essentially the same thing as any other fantasy scene, but instead of fantasy clouding a scene, mystery does it.

AND HEY GUESS WHAT, THAT FITS UMINEKO'S THEME PERFECTLY!

>>4894855
"We need to invite 9 people to enter the party."

"We have 6."

"What if we bring John and Jack?"

"Even if we do, we still only have 8."

Perfectly legitimate usage of "even if." And you are assuming your retarded explanation works with the Japanese. Japanese fans clearly think it does not.

>>4894829
I'm not talking about any board thing, and as it's not in English, I haven't read the 6th episode.

Erika didn't exist to begin with. Hell, I'm not even convinced the 5th game happened at all.

>>4894866

EXACTLY.

>>4894873

Because Japanese people know everything, right?

>Bern sent Erika to the worst kakera
No, she just died.

>>4894873
>Perfectly legitimate usage of "even if."

No, that's bad English.

>And you are assuming your retarded explanation works with the Japanese. Japanese fans clearly think it does not.

Japanese fans also largely believe in Shkanon.

Hence they are retards by default.

And if it doesn't say 'even if' in Japanese, someone please provide a correct translation.

>>4894887
They know a fuck more than you with your "Jessica = Kanon", "Kanon = Kinzo" crap. I mean fuck, how far in denial can you be? Have you even read the episode 6 red? Erika clearly exists in episode 5 and 6, she doesn't exist in the other gameboards, but that doesn't matter. Each gameboard is made with the truth, and that includes that Shannon and Kanon are the same fucking person. How obvious do you need it to be? Do you really, really need it to be said in red for you? All your explanations as to why Shannon isn't Kanon ignore are explanations that ignore to red for this situation with very poor justifications. You are repeating Erika's theories which got her thoroughly trounced, just with different people. Instead of Kanon having George's name, he has Kinzo's. Instead of that, Jessica is Battler. Nevermind that this doesn't make sense at all when compared to past episodes.

>>4894897
Proof? Bern told Erika in episode 5 that she'll give her one more chance, and if she blows it, she'll get sent to the worst kakera. She blew that chance, because Beato kicked her ass over the closed room.

This is TOLD. What you're saying is just something you're assuming to convenience.

>>4894909
Why does Kanon have to be anyone other than Kanon?

Why does Kinzo or George have to be anyone other than Kinzo or George?

Is this some Episode 6 shit? Because everyone can be themselves for the first 5 episodes.

>>4894924
Proof? She died from gunshot wounds. There is no scene in episode six where Bern sends Erika to the worst kakera. Furthermore, Bern wasn't even there when Erika died.

>>4894909

Don't assume I believe in most of those theories either. They're just as stupid as Shkanon.

No, I think there's a deeper answer to all of this, one that no one's brought up yet... and I also think that all of you Shkanonfags have stopped thinking.

Why did you stop thinking? The answer can't just be in front of your faces like that. It's too obvious.

Besides, Shkanon by itself explains nothing.

You guys are right. Witches must exist.

>>4894940
There is nothing that says she dies from gunshot wounds. She just gets shot a few times. I'm fine if I can't prove exactly why Erika is gone, because episode 5 clearly shows why, and you're the ones saying "hurp, she definitely died from that gunshot wound, it was said in red, therefore that killed her and nothing else so it meant she didn't exist." You could even say Erika was even further beaten because she actually believed she didn't exist, just like Battler in episode 4. It doesn't prove anything.

>>4894943
Shkanon in itself explains nothing, but because we're still stuck with you denialfags who can't get over that they're the same person, which was made extremely clear in episode 6, we can't move on to bigger matters. You are the one who stopped thinking. You try to deny anything and just hope an answer will come along for you that solves it for you. Come up with your own theory, because I can guarantee Shannon being Kanon is the least retarded answer to episode 6, by far.

The problem is people think they can just go "Well, my theory is fucking retarded, but at least my precious Shannon and Kanon are the same person, I can walk away from this situation with none of my characters lost." If you try to say the truth is that Jessica is Battler or whatever wordplay "theory" is popular at the moment, you open up every other episode to the same kind of shit, essentially you end up being able to ignore all red because you can just argue that X word actually means Y.

What people dislike about Shkanon is not the theory. The theory itself is valid, and evidenced. What they dislike is the result. They would prefer a theory that is much more stupid but changes nothing in the long run. That's just denial.

By the way, the most major component of the mysteries is that Ushiromiya Battler committed a sin that directly causes the deaths of everyone on the island.

Shanon and Kanon might be the same person, sure. However, that explains nothing, and doesn't even implicate Shanon/Kanon/Whoever as the criminal, or even involved. Considering the way the number of people on the island is treated, the only thing it could possibly do is open it up for there being an 'extra person' on the island who is the actual mastermind, but that still leaves various problems.

>>4894987

No, I, at least, hate the theory. It's inelegant, and, as has been pointed out everywhere many times, IT. PROVES. NOTHING.

There has to be a way around that closed room without name, identity, and DID shenanigans.

Also, as said above, Erika not existing has thematic value, in that she's just another troll on Bern's part.

>>4894992
Nobody believes this "extra person" stuff anymore. That was just something for the long-dead pony theory. Since Beato clearly says the number of people in episode 6, for the first time, instead of "no more than," there's no extra person.

>>4895003
>There has to be a way around that closed room without name, identity, and DID shenanigans.
Prove it. Don't just sit back and deny theories waiting for your answer to come along. I hope you're not waiting for the translation, because it'll be too late by then.

>>4895005
I haven't read episode 6.

If the number of people being confirmed is true, then there's even less of a point to it.

If they're the same person or not, it has no bearing or significance on anything. You can treat them as one person or as two, so long as any 'death' is talking solely about personality. Hell, you could say everyone on the island is one person having a mock play with himself. It doesn't change the mystery whatsoever.

1.) All necessary clues to solve the problem are in the first four episodes
2.) Battler is the major focal point and the reason for everything.

>>4895008

Hah. I don't have to prove anything to point out that you and your theory are full of complete faggotry. But since you're so insistent...

In my mind, the solution to that closed room probably has something to do with the nature of its construction, like, you know, all of the OTHER closed rooms in every mystery ever.

But I can't read Japanese, so yes, I am waiting on that translation.

>>4895013
Episodes 1-4 already had people believing in Shkanon. In fact, it was episode 5 that later killed the theory. Just because R07 believes 1-4 to be enough, it doesn't mean you should forget about the later episodes. They make things easier.

Looking at episodes 1-4 though, for one thing, it seems like Kanon could have been the only one to commit the later murders in episode 1. Do you disagree with that?

>>4895003
It's been shown on Animesuki that Kanon does not need to have a different name to escape the location check. He just needs to leave the room during the time that Erika told Battler to advance the game. There was a period of time where Erika told Battler to advance the game after this Dlanor froze time and applied the seals. It's possible Kanon escaped the location check during this time. You can do this without name games too.

>>4895013

This, again.

Shkanon does absolutely nothing at all outside of one closed room in Episode 6 except explain where Kanon's body went in 2 and 4.

It's not useful if she's the culprit.

It complicates relationships for no reason.

It has more actual execution holes in it than swiss cheese, leaving the only answer to eliminate those holes 'everyone is in on it but Battler'.

What, exactly, is the point of it?

>>4895014
Before the episode 6 red was even translated, I went over it again and again, with many machine translations, and I couldn't find any kind of hole. You can't really say there must be a problem with the construction when the red is along the lines of "this was a perfect closed room the whole time."

>>4895026
Only, to leave the room, he would have to somehow leave a room said in red to be closed, with the seals never broken. Doesn't work.

>>4895020
Which ones are the 'later ones'? Episode 1 is probably the one I remember the least of.

Shkanon by itself proves nothing; tagging Shkanontrice is just an excuse that, unlike the void of Shanon and Kanon having sprites in the same window, has no basis whatsoever other than to give a reason for the Shkanon theory.

I don't know about the rest of this disguising trickery asides from Jessicatrice. This at least has the validity of them already looking similar. It's the speech, mannerisms, and actions that differentiate the two.

>>4891010
As for the counting differentiation, I didn't consider that as trickery. Beatrice doesn't count Erika because she could not have committed any of the original murder(s); Erika counts herself (even though she is not human?) when asked because she is being honest.

Shkanonfags, who was the second last person to die in episode 4?
Shannon couldn't have been the second last, due to...

>>4895036
The time of advancing the game was before the seals were applied. What I'm showing is that Kanon left the room before he could be sealed in the room.

Therefore the seals don't even have to be broken.

>>4895045

The anime is retarded.

The VN describes the well in detail, including the length between the bars on the well that would allow a gun to pass through.

...And this from the person that wants to DENY Shkanon... but... can't let it be solved under false pretenses.

I don't understand why people get upset over theories, though.

It's natural that if you want to arrive at the truth you will attack all theories, but you should also attempt to build up all theories and try every possible option.

In fact, it's likely that only by building up every theory to its full potential and comparing them that you'll wind up at an answer. Just a single variable that always matches.

>>4895066
>Just a single variable that always matches.

>>4895066
we're not getting upset over theories per say. We're getting upset over people who say "my theory is the only theory that works." Which is just arrogant.

>>4895094
People like that are basically just Erika.

They're nothing but pointless distractions meant to stop you from reaching the truth.

>>4895103
Funny you say that. That's basically what Shkanon is.

>>4895077

>>4895077
Jessica being the Moon doesn't make her a troll you know.

The Moon is about some form of deception. Jessica is basically pretending to be a happy perky person, when there are hints that she feels really insecure and self conscious. She even says this in EP 2.

She's basically pretending to be something she's not. Doesn't mean she's a liar or a culprit.

>>4895152
She is a liar, though.

>>4895128
Now, now, that's just hostile.

For example, if Shanon = Kanon, you could say that Shkanon discovered the gold and solved the epitaph, as it's not really that complex. They obviously would be unable to just bring it out, so they stayed on longer.

By abusing emotional connections(George and Jessica), they set both sides up to be ready to kill each other. Invariably, however, something goes wrong, and Shkanon ends up dead. Or, you could try to bullshit that once Shkanon has used up both 'personalities', it reverts back to its true personality. This can be supported by the fact that a person count is not initiated after the very beginning(Though I could be wrong for Episode 6 or something), and the fact that they'd have a third name that does not match up to the list of the dead. This also helps explain the thing at the first tea party where Shanon and Kanon are revived; Shkanon would simply slip into the appropriate persona to stick with the winner of the versus gambit.

This does not explain Battler's death in Episode 4, the way that everyone seems to be constantly blown to bits(What, Shkanon has a fucking rocket launcher and ammunition stores? Is that what the tits on Shanon are?), and why Kuwadorian is a safe place for surviving the night. Another flaw is that it does not conform to the 'Battler is directly responsible', unless you want to say Shanon = Kanon = (Original) Ushiromiya Battler.

Gohda = Genji

>>4895176
Damn, that is one magical Gohda chef!

>>4895158
Hardly. Knowing about Shkannon (if true) doesn't mean she is part of the murders. As for Kinzo, she could just be repeating what Natsuhi keeps telling her about him (he's alive, he doesn't want to come down, etc).

Only time I can see her taking part in the murders is possibly during EP 4. That's the only time she is out of Battler's sight and isn't already dead.

good thing that i bump this thread one hour ago, it's good to see people discussing so happy about corpses and trolls

>>4895176
Kinzo = Kumasawa's son

>>4895047
This seems to be true. Erika exits the closed room, then asks for the locations to be confirmed, then the game is paused, a bit of Meta world stuff for a bit, then Battler says to advance it, but it's not like any time is skipped. The time just unpauses. Everyone is still in the same place, then Dlanor immediately says the rooms are sealed. Someone could escape in that very short time though. Essentially, if Kanon left the room immediately when Erika left hers, there's no problem. Best solution I've heard.
>The people who were in the neighboring room at the time it was sealed were Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo. And, there were exactly five people in the neighboring room. No one other than the people corresponding to those five names existed! All names refer only to the actual people!
Says nothing about the cousins room.

>>4895185
It's more like the opposite. Whether Shkanon is true or not at least Kanon is a murderer. Because of episode 1.

>>4895281
I wonder how likely it is that the EP 1 first twilight was faked. Think about it: the shed is very dark with no light. Nanjo just said they were all dead and the key to the shed was even returned.

If you think about it Battler never really examines the 1st twilight of EP 1-4. Considering EP 5 and 6 both had faked first twilights, it could be possible EP 1-4 had them as well.

>>4895317
But what about the identities of unidentified corpses being guaranteed? (corpses without faces)

>>4895328
Great, unidentified corpses have their identity guaranteed.

But, if there are no unidentified corpses to begin with..?

>>4895328
If they aren't actually corpses then that red isn't valid.

>>4895346
>>4895347
Looks like we're back to the days of Kyrie = culprit.

>>4895360
Those were the good old days.

>>4895375
I prefer Rosa.

What if

None of the cousins nor servants are murderers, nor do they kill people?

>>4895419
than nobody in episode 2 can be a murderer because all the parents are dead.

Jews did it.

>>4895406
Lets just agree with DIDKyrieRosa

>>4895419
In that case, the culprit would have to be one of the people who are supposedly dead in the shed in episode 1. If you just said Kanon and Shannon didn't kill anyone, it would have to be one of them. Because of the "Krauss is not a criminal" red, it's probably not him, and he's too stupid anyway. It would have to be Kyrie, Rosa, or Rudolf. If you match that up with the three "dead" parents in episode 3, one of which would have had to have killed Nanjo, you can eliminate Rosa. I wouldn't be surprised if the one who killed Nanjo in episode 3 killed him in 1.

>>4895406

>>4895430
Beato told Battler to pull out their guts to make sure they're dead, but he didn't. You have to wonder how closely they were all looked at.

>>4895458
I do wonder that, but I also know there is a red saying they were dead at the time they were discovered. If they were faking dead at any point they had to be dead at the point they were found. The murderer also can't discover them dead. So Rosa is the most likely person here.

>>4895484
Good point. But then later in episode 2, Rosa can't be the killer herself. She needs an accomplice.

>>4895484
Is there a possibility that Rosa poisoned them and someone else came in to exploit it? (cutting them open and drawing the magic circle)

Another important thing

What is the answer to the riddle of the epitaph?

>>4895510
I wouldn't think they would be poisoned if they were faking death at first, but if small bombs is true the most natural way to get around Lambda's discovery red would be to have the bombs explode the moment Rosa enters the room. That's why she panicked. She did say that at first she thought they were asleep. One of the people in the room would have to have be the person who placed the bombs in the food though so I would naturally pick a servant like Shannon.

>>4895531
Small bombs isn't true, large bomb is. The door to the chapel was never said to be locked.
>>4895510
Maybe. Considering Kyrie and Rosa's tea shenanigans in episode 1, the same kind of thing might have occurred here, then someone who found the bodies, and knew Rosa was guilty of it, took them all over to the chapel and painted the circle and the message there.

The way I look at it, this whole plot can only really work out if there are actually TWO groups of culprits. Add in a wildcard who might be working with both groups and doublecross either if given the chance, and you have a recipe for some chaos.

If Jessica, Kanon and Nanjo are working together to kill off the adults and make Jessica the new head (and leave the cousins, or at least Battler, out), Episode 1 is pretty much in the bag. Kanon could have carried out pretty much every murder, and Nanjo helped with the cleanup. Jessica was with her mom and the cousins, but she provided a credible witness to Kanon's 'death'. The only question left to answer is 'Who was the Beatrice who appeared at the end of the game?'.

As for Episode 2, we get our first rumblings of what might be the second group of killers. Since Kanon is confirmed dead with the red when the group finds Jessica, things get a little sticky for that group.

As for what happens next... It really all depends on how you want to interpret the red. IF, and I say IF Jessica had actually faked her death back in her room, she could have gone into hiding and waited for a chance to counterattack the people who killed Kanon.

My guess is that Shannon and Genji were behind it, though George, Gohda, and/or Rosa may have been strung along as well. Gohda certainly seemed like he was being pressured to testify after the killings of Nanjo and Kumasawa (both were killed since at least one was working with Jessica, whereas Gohda was an outsider). And Rosa certainly seemed like she knew Kinzo was dead.

At the end, it was probably Jessica that Battler met in Kinzo's room. With his accomplices dead, Genji probably agreed to work for Jessica, since she would be inheriting the family anyway. Or maybe he was working with her all along, and just pretended to be helping Shannon.

>>4895281

Shannon fakes the Episode 1 FT with makeup. No one examines her corpse closely and no one ever confirms her death in red. She kills basically everyone in Ep. 1.

>>4896622
In Episode 3, I've theorized that Nanjo carried out the murders after he found out that everyone was being sent keys to lockboxes with hundreds of millions of yen inside. His intention was probably to intercept the mail of some of the victims and take their shares of the money as well, to fund the treatments or research to treat his sick grandchild. He was still under Jessica's orders technically, but he had his own agenda with regards to the money (hence him writing the PIN on the door. He probably wanted the others to see it so he could see their reactions).

He lacks an alibi for pretty much every murder, since he's always 'in his room reading'. The Kyrie/Rudolph/Hideyoshi triangle was probably mostly their own doing though... I think Hideyoshi overpowered Kyrie and Rudolph and killed them, and was then shot by Nanjo unexpectedly. Or maybe Kyrie was the survivor among those three. Either way, the survivor suffered a mortal wound, but was alive (though unconscious). They woke up later, found their gun, and tracked down Nanjo and killed him before dying themself.

Episode 4 is a mess. I've got some decent theories, but nothing really concise. My best guess is that Shannon was the last survivor, and killed herself at the end, using a simple mechanism to drop the gun down the well afterward so Battler wouldn't suspect.

>>4896622
It's Kanon at the end of EP1 in a dress that fooled the cousins. He was far away enough that they couldn't tell, and he used a long-range gun to take them out and stay out of the sawed-off Winchester's range.

>>4896627
I guess the question is why both Kanon and Hideyoshi lied to everyone about her corpse. It isn't possible for her to escape the shed without some assistance after Genji and Natsuhi changed the padlock.

Erika can be the 18th human being on the island. But even if you count her, there are only 17 people on the island... because she is already dead.

Everyone here seems to be forgetting the fact that the Nanjo on the island is actually Nanjo's granddaughter in disguise.

Submitted for consideration: the possibility that the torn-off faces in EP1 and spilled intestines in EP2 were both fake. This gave the survivors the false impression that the culprit was mutilating the bodies for some reason, and also distracted them from noticing the real cause of death.

bumping this thread for awesomeness

but what do you think? Ryukishi is just going to say "in EP X, this person died this way, this one was killed this way,..." and so?

Or just a general answer and we have to work it into the previous games?

go to the first page, so someone can answer the sweet boy that is posting alone right there ^

>>4899740
The latter is most likely.

bump