/jp/ - Otaku Culture

So basically Beatrice did it all with magic. Umineko solved, you can all go home.

I can't be helped. I don't know how to love.

what do gun manifestations have to do with love

Fuck you and your love OP, Bern is my cruel mistress and she will rip the gameboard apart next month.

I understand Shkannon perfectly. Without Shkannon EP6 can't be solved. It doesn't mean that I'm obliged to like it. I hate Shkannon from the bottom of my heart but I'll deal with it.

its jp, they have no girlfriends and cant love

>>5654305
Goats=Splosion/Kinzo's Will
Stakes= Actual Stakes, they exist, possibly related to Rudolf's American business failure
Siestas= The guns, I mean ep 5 said it

So yeah... you can solve without using the fantasy scenes, they just help.

>>5654321
We have a girlfriend and her name is /jp/. We're so hardcore we make her "butt hurt" every day.

>>5654328
obviously magic was used to hide the ad truth from maria or something, obviously the culprit has a thing for her

>>5654328
Actually most of the fantasy scenes really are bullshit. Sometimes the best thing you can extract from them are the intentions behind the murder, and maybe, just maybe, the cause of the death.

>>5654328
yeah but what's love got to do with it? It sounds like OP just thinks he found out the "key" and is now feeling superior. You are no better than shkanon fags.

>>5654349
>Actually most of the fantasy scenes really are bullshit.

You know with the way R07 keep on showing what the fantasy scenes and magic scenes are about, why are people still doubting him?
Reread Ange scene about black witch, ep5 bullshit Natsuhi/Beato magic scene and the whole ep6. That is the true nature of Rokkenjima magic.

>>5654365
like bern said, true nature is bullshit, they just use it to hide the facts

>>5654349
Well, Ryukishi said the big deal about ep 3 was that, unlike ep 2, the result was not what the magic scene showed. Which then implies that the ep 2 magic could be used to reason. I solved ep 3 my own way (continued by theory from ep 1 and 2, shannon/kinzo mastermind, in this case Shannon brought in George), and the magic scenes reflected what my theory suggested. That said, I didn't even try for ep 4, I'll re-read it eventually, but its too much fantasy wad and hopping from Ange to take seriously.

>tl;dr

>>5654380
which?

>>5654365
I'm not doubting R07 at all, make no mistake about that. However, it's obvious that even if the magic IS trying to show us something, we can't be too dazzled by it, otherwise we would never reach the objective truth about the incidents.

Also, I JUST, JUST came back from reading Episode 6 from since Erika enters the island to the very last line of ??? in a single sitting, so my memory on that is pretty fresh, thank you.

>Hello, /jp/
>Shkanon seems obvious with episode 6 so let's stop thinking and accept that as an answer, the end
This is what Shkanonfags actually do

>>5654416
Since you just finished reading ep6 you should know that they are not bullshit.

>>5654425
I thought it was obvious since episode 2 personally.

>>5654425

Yeah, they do. But Shkannon is not the anwser itself, it's just a fact. I seriously doubt Sh/K is the killer.

>>5654425
Ok, I've been following Umineko for a bit (since EP 3), but I've never figured out the source behind ShKannon. I mean sure, it makes the mystery a lot easier, but you can still solve without it. And as far as story reasoning, while its suggested, it doesn't have to be true. (Beatrice did the murders is also suggested...) So, is there one of the murders that only makes sense via ShKannon?

>>5654454
I will tell you one of the biggest source.
Kanon corpse was never found in one of the earlier episode. I forgotten which.
Multiple personality was fucking foreshadow in almost every episode.

In the newest episode, Kanon apparently disappeared out of thin air. He LOL conveniently SWITCH PERSONALITY.

>>5654454
No. Basically it's a theory made by people who don't want to think about closed rooms properly, so just try to avoid the red by saying personalities can die.

>>5654462
Hachijou and Ange confirms that personality = people.
Eva-Beatrice confirms in episode 3 that being taken over by another personality and getting a new name can happen.
What the fuck do you want more? Rather than not thinking, people who think ShKanon is true actually understand Umineko.

>>5654431
It's not that I think they are "bullshit". You can't really disregard anything in the novel as useless or dispensable. That being said, I'm not fond of the idea of taking the magic interpretations too far either. As OP/you said, I'm probably already blind with my anti-fantasy filter, so all the Fantasy scenes were automatically digested by me and translated to what was really happening.

It doesn't means that the Stakes, the Black Witch or even the Siestas don't exist. They do. But you cannot equate a single Truth to anything, even if they are full of magic. And the one I'm pursuing is still not yet unveiled.

>>5654462
Please read this.
Pic related. This mean that another character (bullshit personality cop out) can carry out Nanjo murder if Jessica's body is capable of murder.

>>5654472
Look, if a personality can be counted as a person, so ShKannon theory created a problem.
Battler says for Erika:
"Even if we welcome you there are still 17 people."
In another words:
-Shannon and Kanon are considered separate person even if they divide the same body. And Erika doesn't exists.
What Battler says can be true if Erika isn't counted as a person. What is impossible in a logic way.
OR
-Shannon and Kanon are considered one person. But this enters in conflict with red texts that we already discussed.

The only way for the ShKanon theory works in Umineko is if Shannon and Kanon are considered separete persons even if they divide the same body. But this means that Erika doesn't exist in the EP6. But this is impossible, since even Battler saw Erika.

Therefore, for ShKanon theory exists, Erika must be someone of the 17.

>It was said in ep5 you can solve the whole game already
Doesn't this also imply that it cannot be solved before ep5, meaning that none of the theories suggested before ep5 are correct?

>>5654498
Shannon and Kanon cannot exist at the same time.
15+(1or1)=16
Get it?

>>5654498
No, it just means that at most you can say both in red.
And that's exactly what they do in the end.

There are 18 persons including Erika, first red.
It's true if you consider Shannon and Kanon as separate.
There are 17 persons including Erika, second red.
It's also true if you consider Shannon and Kanon as the same person.

Both are valid, there is no problem.

>>5654503
Episode 4 actually, you can solve the whole game using informations from episode 1-4.

>>5654503

No. It was said that Beato was basicly tripping clues when she was the GM.

>>5654506
This.
Maybe both truths are valid and doesn't enter in conflict.

>>5654506
If personalities count as people, Beatrice personality should make 19 people including Erika.

>>5654517
Not if Beatrice doesn't see herself as human or some shit like this.
Or it could just be the whole "seen by society" stuff aka Shannon and Kanon are counted as separate people because they have the papers to prove it.

>>5654517
Beatrice is a witch.
Witches do not exist.

Without love it cannot be seen.

>>5654530
Okonogi says:
Without love it cannot be seen.
The girls says:
Without love it cannot be seen.
Therefore....

Can't Kanon just kill himself?

Once Kanon is dead, Kanon becomes just a name for Yoshiya thus no longer count as a person.

Well, at least now we can all be sure that it really was a bomb.

>>5654523
regular paper is bullshit. Really. we don't even know if it is the case.
And to Kanon, he isn't human. He is a furniture.
The only thing which stay is the " acknowledged by other" but if magic works this way, then...

"'Magic exists because magic exists'. I believe the rules of our Braun tube trial say that that kind of argument doesn't work."
".........Y, ......es...you're right...............Heh, .........hahack, ...guh..."
"No matter who or how many people witnessed magic that cannot become proof of magic's existence!!"

>Implying Shkanon=ENTIRE CULPRIT IS DID EVERYONE GO HOME

All of /jp/

>>5654530
Beato in ep6 is NOT a witch.
Seriously, go read this goddamn episode again.

The justifications for ShKanon in this thread sound about as reasonable as small bombs. You're grasping for straws.

>>5654598
There are no justification, only what fucking happen in the game.
For the justification, just wait for Ryukishi's explanation about DID and whatever, it's going to be pretty stupid but surely entertaining.

>>5654609
>>happens in the game
>>truth

>>5654560
It says explosion, if the main house was all closed down (like it usually is in most episodes after killings start) and filled with gas from the boiler, if the boiler exploded, you know the rest.

>>5654597
Of course she isn't a witch.
Witches do no exist.
How about you learn to read?

She is a figment of someone imagination/ personality that isn't a human. Get it?

You need more love.

And so, we got from >>5654281 trying to tell us that magic is integral part of the story, free to be interpreted to >>5654611 that automatically takes any non-red as lies.

GOOD JOB PEOPLE

Fuck Knox

There is a secret passage connecting neighbouring rooms/They made a hole in the wall just in case. Kanon escapes through the window.
There is a secret door in the closet in the guest room that Battler didn't know about. Kanon escapes through it after letting Battler out and resetting the chain.

My last idiotic and hopeless stand against already confirmed Shkannon

>>5654640
...Dude, I think everyone here gets this already.

>>5654498
I posted in the other umineko thread:

Even If= If Statement, therefore (take T to be True and F to be False (is this case, reflecting Erika's presence in the proposition, 17 people in the conclusion)
T -> T (Erika is there, and there are 17 people)
T -> F (Erika is there, and there are not 17 people)
F -> T (Erika is not there, and there are 17 people)
F -> F (Erika is not there, and there are not 17 people)
In this set up, only the 2nd statement (Erika is there, and there are not 17 people) is false, which would result in a logic error unless someone is removed or sharing bodies. Using this solution, one can say that the chapters that Erika is not included in are absolutely not affected by Erika. However, if Erika is in a chapter (EP 5/6), then their must be either 17 people, including her, or an error in logic. I think I'm just being redundant, but I figured showing the work wouldn't hurt future arguments.

So, proof of Shkannon should not be based off of ep 5/6. This is because the basic conditions of EP 5/6 are different than eps 1-4.

>>5654661
I don't know why anyone hasn't suggested that you could make a device to seal the door as you leave. Afterall, wasn't what Erika triggered when she walked in the bathroom a device based on opening a door? So, all you would have to do is salvage those parts, build the 'autolock' and leave. No body swap, no logic error, no problem. The only condition would be that Battler would have to figure out how to build the device, but if he was spending decades in the room, I figure he could use trial and error. Besides, we have the red that "Battler is incompetent" so, just because he couldn't do something does not mean it couldn't be done.

>>5654693
Fucking KNOX.
No bullshit magical or futuristic device or trap x or hanger or etc.
Howoever any of those are definitely better than the already bullshit confirmed multiple personality.

I understand some of the links of the stakes with most characters (Ange/Mammon, Kyrie/Leviathan, Gohda/Belzebub etc), but i don't get the Rudolph/Belphegor one.

Surely it has something to do with what Kyrie says to Jessica in EP6, but I don't know.

Well, the Stakes are keys to open up the way to the gold -- that's why some of them are gone in EP3.

Also the Siestas obviously represent firearms, but that raises an interesting problem -- we've seen .45 caliber weapons (the Winchesters), but we haven't seen any shotguns (.410 and 00).

>>5654703
What Knox would it break?
1. Not Relevant.
2. Battler built the trap that Erika fell into, therefore it is shown that Battler can engineer such a device, he doesn't need infinite time.
3. Not Relevant.
4. It wouldn't take that long to explain "When he opens the door, it hit the pin, and locked" besides, he didn't explain the trap Erika fell into
5. Not Applied.
6. Battler is not the Detective (also, probably not relevant).
7. Not Relevant.
8. Not Relevant.
9. Not Relevant.
10. Not Relevant.

I don't see how this is broken

>>5654739
KInzo modified tghem so they can shoot those bullets.

>>5654747
Maybe the .410, yeah, but there is no way 00 would fit. .410 is third from the right and 00 is second from the right in this picture, the sizes are just too different.

That would make sense if there were a separate shotgun though, since we don't even see 00 until ep4, and she usually fires on her own, not with the other two.

>>5654764
Just think that Kinzo modified one of them specially and you're done, there's enough foreshadowing to cover it.

>>5654640
Maybe you should read the post I was answering to?

>>5654746
>#4
A wirehook like what Battler used works.

Battler is no Macgyver.

>>5654739

I think it's more Rudolph/Asmodeus. I mean, this guy is ultimate pimp, if that's not lust...

>>5654644
>>that automatically takes any non-red as lies.

Where
I waw answering to

>>There are no justification, only what fucking happen in the game.


"DID happens in the game, so it HAVE to be DID".
I trust more the white text than the red one.
So no, I was not saying that white text = bullshit.

>>5654764
>and you're done
Done what? Done thinking?

R07 gave a detailed description of the Winchester when he first introduced it, I don't think he would just handwave this sort of thing. If he did it would be like having a handgun shoot .50 cal BMG or something.

Anonymous 07/14/10(Wed)10:36 No.5654788
>>5654644
>>that automatically takes any non-red as lies.

Where?
I was answering to

>>There are no justification, only what fucking happen in the game.


"DID happens in the game, so it HAVE to be DID".
I trust more the white text than the red one.
So no, I was not saying that white text = bullshit.

>>5654779
Then you will have to explain why Kyrie is fighting her own stake, but not Rudolf

>>5654792

Ah. Sorry then, misinterpret you.

>>5654803

Rudolf is actually attacked and Kyrie is not, maybe?

>>5654827
the opposite is also quite possible.
Damn, if Hideyoshi was Belphegor and not Beelzebub it would be pretty easy to explain.

>>5654777
Sorry for the slow reply, if the case is that it takes too long to explain, we should define what too long is first. It took about a paragraph I think to explain that you can use a card to check whether a door was opened. So,

When Battler left, he slammed the door. By doing this, he loosened the knot that was hanging on the door frame. The weight of this, plus the clever angle, allowed Battler to create a closed room

There, that was about a paragraph, it could go in more depth if given a page, but its still a relatively simple mechanism. Battler was shown to think outside the box when he solved the Cheese with one step, so its conceivable that he could do this.

>>5654850

I just thought of something. The sisters have 'age', Lucifer being the oldest and Asmo being the youngest. In ep1, the whole family sits in a pre-set order.

Excluding the kids, it goes- Krauss, Eva, Rudolf, Rosa, Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, Kyrie

In other words- Kyrie could be attacked by Eva (Leviathan is the 2nd oldest) and Hideyoshi (Belphagor is 6th oldest, if I remember well)

http://rogerpepitone.webs.com/umineko/Umineko-notes.html

That has up until EP 3 stake deaths, as EP4 no one is staked. My theory is that they don't represent people, they are actual stakes, the personification comes in when they are talking to the victims, this gives the attacker's state of mind (or not, could just be random fantasy to throw off mystery)

Lucifer: Saved for the later twilights, usually the result of a "turn" (large fantasy scene happens, EP 1, witch face off, EP 2, Beatrice appears, ep 3, seista choke.)
Leviathan: Was always the last stake , always got Kumasawa until Kyrie killed her. The implication being that Kumasawa is close to the murderer, and the murderer envys Kumasawa in someway)
Satan: (No real link on twilight, but the victim was always Kannon, until it was Natsuhi. The implication being that the murderer does not like Kannon or Natsuhi)
Belphaegor: (7th twilight, Kills Nanjo.Perhaps the murderer wanted to make sure that everyone knew their family was really dead so they didn't have to worry about walking corpses?)
Mammon (4th twilight, seems to target people who are already dead. Ep 2 is the exception, unless Shannon killed herself)
Beelzebub (Likes people who likes food, perhaps Beelzebub kills via poison, then stakes later?)
Asmodeus (Kills "those who are close" then Rudolf.)

I donno, I think the Stakes killing order and ties to the murder are a red herring, or, might be a bonus once you know the actual answer.

>>5654909
Well, the age comes from the divine comedy. It is:

luxuria (extravagance)
gula (gluttony)
avaritia (avarice/greed)
acedia (acedia/discouragement)
ira (wrath)
invidia (envy)
superbia (pride)


Reversed, as you should guess.

Umineko really is the evangelion of VNs.
Lots of LOLSYMBOLISM that have absolutely no point, nor do they bring anything to the story.
And people still try to argue over them.

>>Mammon (4th twilight, seems to target people who are already dead. Ep 2 is the exception, unless Shannon killed herself)

Someone who knows the "furniture" concept, and thinks that Shannon is greedy because she want to become an human?

>>5655037
yeah, yeah, go trolling anywhere else, please, I will (or will not) agree with you once the serie will be over.

>>5655037
>Umineko really is the Naruto of VNs.
Fixed for you.
Evangelion is actually good.

>>5655040
That would actually match up. The theory I had for Shannon's death was that Genji would kill her for not following Kinzo's plan. Having Genji kill Shannon with Mammon would be like saying "you where never alive". (This is going by the theme that Mammon kills those already dead, rather than by greed)

>>5655068

>>5654319

Yes it can be solved without it. I've done it.

>>5655037
At least what you see in EVA actually happens.

>>5655134

Proof or GTFO

I hate how you kids think you've solved everything just because you accept Shkanon.

I also hate how you think that Shkanon did the murders because "lolshe'scrazy".

She isn't.

She's being manipulated. Probably by George.

>>5655155
Being manipulated does not make you less batshit.

>>5655086

>>5655153
Not trollkastle, but my "autolock" could "save" battler
>>5654693
(counter argument)
>>5654703
(response)
>>5654746
(counterargument)
>>5654777
(response)
>>5654863
(no counterargument to final response yet, therefore by default valid)

>>5655153

Kanon gets rid of his name and decides to stop working, and goes by Yoshiya. No Shkanon needed.

Or, he goes in the closet and dies of some method. Again, no need for Shkanon.

>>5655167
Did I say manipulated? I should've used a better word.

Forced, I mean.

>>5655155
Well, my theory isn't Shkannon, but it still does require Shannon to be a little crazy (IE, kill for love)

>>5655037
oh my god I'm SO convinced by this! now I'll start hating umineko too.

MORE LIKE UMISHIT

Am I doing it right?

>>5655155
>I'm not crazy I'm just killing people because someone told me to.

>>5655184
>and dies of some method

Erika could have killed him and not realized it. She no longer has the detective's authority, after all.

Additionally, if Erika doesn't actually exist and is possessing someone's body, and this person's body does not change between episodes, the only one of the 17 it can be is Shannon.

Shannon killed Kanon. Just like in the love duel. Makes sense, right?

>>5655210

Why would it be Shannon? And, I can suggest suicide as well or some kind of accident...

Do you guys enjoy running away from the truth so much?

>>5655210

And what method can she kill accidentally with?

>>5655172

Care to explain this more?

>>5655230
Multiple truths can exist at the same time. Wasn't that the point of episode 5?

>>5655210
on Erika's existence, see
>>5654666
Therefore, Erika only needs to take over someone's body in 2 episodes, or actually, not even that. Since Bern and Lambda where making the game, they could have set it up so that people where talking to air.And in ep 6, since Battler saw the truth, he had to figure out a way to make sure the characters interacted correctly with Erika. In otherwords, Erika is a player/witch, similar to Evatrice. Even though we see her interacting with characters, she's not actually there. Therefore, there can exist a Shannon, and a Kannon. And Kannon can save Battler (even though I'd rather have Battler use Tech, but w/e)

>>5655269
Sorry, didn't see your post at the time. What would you like explained? I thought I had it covered in the previous posts

>>5655172
Maybe because your solution is even more retarded than R07 99% confirmed bullshit confessions that people don't see the need to reply to?

>[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?] Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.

>>5655184
And if you suppose that his duel was not a duel to the death, you can even find an explanation for him stopping working.

>>5655310
Like if these people would care about what ryukishi says or about ep5.

>>5655328

Oh, nevermind, sorry. I'm retarded and I can't read. Autolock isn't bad at all. I've never thought about that...

But I guess Battler wanted to be cornered because he somehow knew it'd revive Beatrice? Perhaps he was hiding his power level.

The ep 6 end message about Erika = 18th human to come to this island doesn't conflict with the 17 people. Remember how Kinzo got confirmed and taken off and we are left with 17 people? This practically implies by the time Erika hit/drifted to the island in some part of the shore, she's already dead. So it's 17 people alive during this event.

>>5655344

Maybe Battler wasn't in the room when Erika entered it. I don't recall when Erika sealed the door, but there must have been a small window of opportunity for that to have happened.

Besides, I motion for /jp/ to try to figure out how the closed room of EP6 can be solved without involving the whole Shkannon Shmmamfaaafawhatever.

The siestas are obviously Maria's toy rabbits.
Other than being the only other rabbits presented in the game, Siesta 556 was said to be good at the trumpet, and on her status screen we also get the information that she was killed in a battle with the black witch (Rosa).

In (episode 4 I believe it was), Rosa had a fit and threw one of Maria's toy rabits in the ground in a way that made it shatter, and it was the toy rabbit with the trumpet.

>>5655371
I guess you didnt read the whole thing and just ctrl till the end.

[red]The game ended while I was inside the guest room, so I did not undo the chain lock that I had previously set. So, it can't be that he escaped behind my back after I left the room. Furthermore, the chain lock was set at the same time I entered the room. No one could have left the room during the few seconds between the time I entered and the time I set the chain lock.[/red]

Ryukishi has such a nice understanding of love~

>>5655344
Ah, see, there's the thing that I didn't understand when I read it either. By that wording, Erika is still in the room. (Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left.) Which means that since 3 bodies entered and exited, Erika entered, Erika left, Battler left. This conflicts with my previous case where Erika doesn't exist, which means by default ShKannon exists. However, just because ShKannon exists, doesn't mean it effects anything. Its like saying Sakutaro appears.

>>5655371
We already did you idiot, read the thread.

>>5655184

>>5655361
One in a quadrillion miracle, etc.
>>5655371
I's not that I am pessimistic, but it will be hard. Some people are trying to do it since months, and it became even worse with ep6.
>>5655364
Kinzo confirmed? Well, even if it was it was not exactly the same thing

>>5655371

There's a few ways.

>>5655382

Is there any reason you're posting this?

>>5655394
I think that he wanted to say searching many theories, not only one. There is also Kanonzo which work, Kanontrice maybe.
Except for Kanontrice (which is, ironically, the hardest to defend), the hard part is to explain how Beato can understand the trick.
(No, it was not DURING the duel like another anon said, it was after, when Kanon sai her to "use her magic on him")

>>5655037
>Evangelion

What to you get when you take the 'a' out of Ange?

NGE.

>>5655410
...?
Maybe he tought that nobody here knew about 556 in the tips?

>>5655410
Well someone mentioned that they are guns.
If they were guns their scenes could possibly be more relevant.

But what's the deal with toy rabbits?
I don't really have a point I guess, other than how I don't think that their true nature matter that much.
Feels more like a fun "cameo" thing or something other than simply not existing.

>>5655444

Maybe, but it almost felt like a non-sequitur with the way the conversation has been leading

>>5655402
It would be, if it wasn't foreshadowed by Erika's stunt in the bathroom. If that didn't happen, I wouldn't even be suggesting it.

Erika sealed the door after the Logic Error, hence why the error occurred, because Battler thought the room wasn't sealed, but it was. The answer is what Auau suggested, the window, the other possibility is what Bern said, I guess the autolock could occur as well, but thats just me.

Well, Kinzo's dead at the start of all games, but Erika's is never stated

>>5654486
That means that you cannot into logic.

>>5654486
It means that Battler was saying bullshit and EVA had to say something very restrictive, in the other way even if Battler's blue truth was bullshit, it would still be effective. That's all.

also, the red is made to be misleading.

>>5655537
Wouldn't it make more sense just to have a walking corpse anyway? Speaking of, does anyone know what the Zombie Hideyoshi error was?

>>5655562
>very restrictive
Multiple personality can be cut down by red text if you want it to be restrictive and in this case they clearly left it open.

>>5655604
And she could also say that Jessica have another personnality. She didn't. Does it means that she actually have one?
And no. This is WAY more restrictive than split personnality. Eva said that because Battler was insisting about Jessica being the murderer, even after

>>The culprit who killed Nanjo was neither Battler nor Eva nor Jessica

This way, even if Jessica is haunted by a ghost, have a DID wherre her other personnality is a monkey, or anything, it is not possible for her to be the culprit. Way more restrictive than "No DID".

>>5655604
also, who cares about multiple personnality in ep3?
They were searching the killer. So, this red kills every possibilities of Jessica being the killer. There was no need to kill every possibilities of a DID at this moment. And it would have been very, very suspicious, even more than now.

>>5655667
Sometime I wonder how people can be that stupid.
It's about reading between the lines fucking idiot.
She tacitly agreed that the whole "hijack by another personality" can happen, it's as clear as fucking day.

>>5655683
It's called foreshadowing, it's something you usually do in mystery and the likes.

>>5655667
Erm no.
>The culprit who killed Nanjo was neither Battler nor Eva nor Jessica
Battler was trying to go around this by saying Personality A of Jessica's body killed Nanjo. Look if Eva said that "No multiple personality can be used to create another murderer" we wouldn't have this stupid personality swap argument.

I doubt R07 is so smart that he leave this small trap here open and then gave us ep6 which point to this.

>>5655693
Except that if you think this way, you can have foreshadowing for almost everything. And then it gives some teories like "Nonja is his own daughter.".
Or "there is small bombs but people are not eating them". Or whatever. This split personnality have a perfect sense in its context, and is referring to a WITCH-LIKE personnality, but it would be good to stop saying things out of their context, damn. This way, you can prove ANYTHING.

Also, like I said earlier, it is not denied by EVA because in this case, the best move for her was to dismiss Jessica. Period.
You cannot know what she would have said if the split persionnality thing was at the center of their discussion.

>>5655696
We swouldn't have it right now.
But in ep3, no action caused by Jessica body => have fun imagining retarded theory if you want, it will not help you.

>>5655718
It's about plausibility and working with it fucking idiot, that's how mystery works.
You have limits, you have a set of clues, it's not about working with things that aren't there, it's about working with things that are presented to you.

Why the fuck is there so many retards in the Umineko fandom anyways? I feel like I have to teach to fourth graders.

>>5655738
The irony is that, they think shkanon is stupid but the things they came up with is even more stupid than it with no basis and contradict all the mystery novel rules and red text.

>>5655747
Are you suggesting ShKanon doesn't contradict mystery novel rules?

"A servant must not be chosen by the author as the culprit. This is begging a noble question. It is a too easy solution. The culprit must be a decidedly worth-while person — one that wouldn't ordinarily come under suspicion. "

"A servant must not be chosen by the author as the culprit. This is begging a noble question. It is a too easy solution. The culprit must be a decidedly worth-while person — one that wouldn't ordinarily come under suspicion. "

"A servant must not be chosen by the author as the culprit. This is begging a noble question. It is a too easy solution. The culprit must be a decidedly worth-while person — one that wouldn't ordinarily come under suspicion. "

>>5655738
You are not teaching anything here. Like I said, clues are good, but only when you don't forget the context. And I don't remember EVA-DID being the same thing as Shkanon or whatever.
Because there is the word "DID" somewhere, it means that it WILL happen later?
Seriously, if you go this way with everything, you'll have fun.
I don't care about all of the stupid "symbolism" for Shkannon, the mirror, or anything, but this example is stupid. It is normal for Battler to think about a DID because of EVA, and it is also normal for EVA not to contradict it. Stop seeing clues everywhere, clues are certainly hidden in umineko, but here we just have a WORD. which had a meaning and a justification in his actual context. If this "personality" comed out from nowhere, I would agree with you, totally. But it doesn't.

Nanjo did it, see EP 1

>>5655777
It's not a mystery rule, it's a rule that Dine made.
But lots of murder mystery don't follow Dine, most of them in fact.

>>5655777
Shit a mediocre author decided upon is not really a rule.

>>5655777
Even without this. Not every novel follow Dine's rules. But Personnality are not supposed to be able to switch. And I will not even talk about how Kanon and Shannon should behave for not contradicting even some basic reds. It would be possible, but their behaviour would be everything but natural.

>>5655777
>worth-while person
They are clearly at a higher level compare to Natsuhi.
They are furniture, they have the family crest, lover of important characters and they have freaking huge scene time.
Are you implying that that we should only suspect the parents and the kids?

>>5655802
Shanon is not a worthwhile culprit. She is too boring and detached from most of the other characters. She might be an accomplice, but if she is the main culprit it will be disappointing. She just doesn't have much of a relation with anyone but George and Kanon (who you're suggesting is herself).

>>5655802
Even if Shkannon is true, probably.
If Shkannon is true, Kannon and Shannon already had enough screen time.
The only people left are Genji, Kumasawa and goda, but we don't know anything about them, so it would be hard to find a why.

Also, some anon said that "land of the golden witch" was supposed to be in ep5 the last time, so I'll answer here:

eople also wonder whether content from "Land of the golden witch", which was removed from EP3, was included in EP5.

Ryuukishi: I definitely can't tell you that! It's true that the most vital part of "Land of the golden witch" is in there, but it's such a terrifying bit. Furthermore, it's something that neither Battler nor Erika nor Bernkastel has ever brought up in discussion. Maybe they didn't even realize that it was a riddle. Well, you'll probably find out soon. In EP6, a huge bit of red text info will appear regarding this point......according to the current plan.


If you think that Shkannon is this "content", then


o put it another way, is it possible to reach the truth of the crime if you haven't noticed this trick?

Ryuukishi: That's hard to say. If you don't see through the part from "Land of the golden witch", you definitely won't be able to reach several vital answers.
However, that content was never really necessary in the first place, so you can reach the truth of the crime with it or without it.
So, If Shkannon is Land of the golden witch, they cannot be the killers. If it is not, we are missing an hard to understand dirty trick.

>>5655841
You mean the trick of ZOMG DETECTIVE IS RELIABLE POV ONLY WHEN HE IS THE NARRATOR that was the big trap of episode 5.

Who would have thought?

>>5655841
I think the dirty trick is playing dead and this was clearly shown in ep6.

>>5655855
And what red of ep6 it is supposed to be?

>>5655864
I'm seriously doubtig about this not being necessary to solve the murders.

Ryukishi stated that the way to solve the last closed room of episode 6 was the key to solve most of Umineko.
So yeah.

So which dine rules do you think will apply to umineko?

>>5655880
Who cares?

>>5655880
Probably most of them. Ryukishi will only change them. like he does with knox.

>>5655887
He didn't change them that much, and made a red herring not putting the 5th.

>>5655880

Hopefully all of them.

>>5655747
Except DID contradicts mystery novels no less, it's okay for romance novels, though.

>12) There can only be one murderer. The villain could have a helper or "co-plotter," but only one is going to get the ax in the matter.
I like to see him dodge this rule.

>>5655892
Yes, but Dine would need a lot of change, Umineko literally makes fun of them in 1-4.
also, I think that knox's 5 could have been changed because a chinaman is not really hard to find in umineko... And the opposite is not quite hard neither, Kinzo being fond of occidental things.

>>5655855
Yeah, definitely looks like Golden Land.

>>5654613
can a boiler explode and destroy an entire mansion?

>>5655901
Except that Shkannon is not even a real DID.
If Shkannon is true, it would be a great "get the fuck out" from Ryukishi, because mystery novel are supposed to be solvable, and so, putting some nonexistent things into them is a bad idea.

In fact, anyone who knows how DID works would be stuck, and any retard who don't know anything about it and is saying nonsense would find the answer.

Well, that and the fact that it doesn't have a place in a mystery novel, moreover.

>>5655443
about that

>>5655918
Chinaman basically refers a weird person that can use non-conventional methods to perform murder right?
Also, he makes mostly fun of 20th rule, but if you supose Eva wasn't the culprit in ep3... it doesn't go against it, the same with forgering fingerprints against Natsuhi in ep5, she wasn't the culprit.

>>5655933
Apparently, the old ones could.
But the bomb still have to be HUGE, even the harbor is supposed to be destroyed.
And, according to ep1, the harbor is far from the island (and it would be strange to destroy it anyway)

from the mansion*, sorry

>>5655946
evahamburgeruryuu~~

>>5655933
Like I said, if you fill the ENTIRE mansion (think it's huge) and then the boiler explodes, it would be able to cause the mass destruction we're searching for, probably.
If you take 1000m^2 (maybe, it was 3-stored with ground-1st and 2nd floor I think), fill them with gas and then make a huge explosion, you'd probably create a huge crater.

>>5655952
Well, I took my definition of the chinaman from the umineko wikia,

(In Msgr. Knox's time, one of the most overused plot mechanisms was the introduction of "a Chinaman" or other foreign, exotic or otherwise unusual character from "another land" as the malefactor. This comment was not intended as a "racist" one, but as a reaction to this plotting mechanism.)

>>5655973
I read the reason they were ruled out, it was because you could suspect tat they were using some strange ability or something taht is really exotic but you could pass off as normal in their country, like being a contortionist to commit closed room murders.

>>5655997
Yes, basically something the reader can't know.
Well, I don't think this is a red herring anyway, if I learned that Beatrice was a contortionist who used her skills to kill people in umineko, I would be "o___o"

How about you just like Umineko for what it is, and wait for it too be over, THEN talk about fucken shit theories all day.

>>5656018
You are the kind of Reader Ryukishi would dislike.
No offense, it's just that for him Umineko is not something to "read only".

>>5656011
No, I meant red herring as for Erika, she is obviously a chinaman in many regards, which is why I said that not including rule number five meant accepting her and taht could be a perfectly acceptable red herring, in case it actually works.

>>5656029
I hate how the people going around saying "YOU'RE THE READER RYUKISHI DISLIKES" are probably also the kind of reader Ryukishi dislikes.

Ryukishi doesn't hate people who don't form theories. He hates people who don't listen to what the fuck he's trying to say, who ignore fantasy scenes because LOL TROLLING, and think the themes of the story don't matter. On that note, he certainly would hate people who just think, at this point, that magic is something tangible or is responsible for the murders, but there aren't many of those people at this point.

>>5655946
mind = blown

Left or right, /jp/?

>>5656029
So he hates people who like his stories and believe what ever theory he picks, is ok and what it should be? instead of the fags reading all his works but still tells him that what he dose sucks?

>>5656082
Right, of course.

>>5656082
Right was voiced by Kikuko Inoue, sorry, Belldandy owns.

>>5656082
Right. Can't stand that green shit with the medal featherine has.

>>5656055
Actually, he don't like people who only accept the story as it goes and don't care.

>>5656115
He dislikes the type of people who go "LOL THAT WAS A FANTASY, LOLOLOL TROLLING I CAN JUST PRETEND IT NEVER HAPPENED AND NOT THINK ABOUT IT WHEN FORMING MY SHITTY THEORIES."

>>5656089
She had to look a bit roman.

>>5656082
Why does Japan hate both of them? There's like 10 times as many pictures of Amakusa pegging Battler as there are of Virgilia and Auaurora put together.

>>5656135
Because yaoi. Isn't it obvious?

>>5656135
They don't like pig shit.

>>5656135
Also, thinking about virgilia's real form is pretty horrible

>>5656082
AuAu.

>>5656169
But her young form was a lot like Beatrice.

>>5656180
I don't care, at least I can't imagine a stake being nude.

>>5654278
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fznlcycie m khkmvq gpmnvrtvhkzjvowh ddb zdlry bhu

The scene before this one he says "If Shannon were to be killed and I would be left alive, I'll sacrifice this body to ruin this roulette of yours".

>>5656190

Whoops, wrong picture. This is the one I was referring to.

>>5656190
Am I missing the point, or something?

>>5656115
Like it fucken matters, hes talking too the Japanese not us at all, maybe he would like us, if he knew just how serious you guys were. it seems like the Japanese are different from us and don't like/don't care about Umineko.

>>5656198
You can assume that the master is supposed to be Kinzo, because he is the one who created them. But it is interresting.

I'm wondering if master = father or not.

>>5656199

You can beat the EP 6's red. The last one, the "Number of people is seventeen" part if you count Kanon as zero. You don't even need Shkannon for it.

>>5656208
If people feel offended, then there's something they should reconsider.

>>5656208
The question here is not about liking or not, it is about bein an active reader who use is brain while he is reading or a passive reader who just wait for the end of the story .
But keep in mind that I am not saying that everyone here is like that.

>>5654277
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>>5656213
It also goes in the sense of the whole "furniture" = not human.
But in this case, the problem is, why does he count in some red ? (like in ep3 for example, "6 people", or also in ep6 )

>>5656213
It also goes in the direction of the whole "furniture" = not human.
But in this case, the problem is, why does he count in some red ? (like in ep3 for example, "6 people", or also in ep6 )

>>5656226
I am a passive thinking reader

>>5656251

Think about it like this. The number of humans on the island are eighteen. It was stated so in red. However, the number of people on the island is seventeen. Counting from zero to seventeen, you count eighteen times. Saying "Six people" is just saying six people off the roulette wheel of numbers is dead. Using roulette, placing a bet on three different boxes you would normally say "I bet on three spaces". I'm speculating it's the same with the red.

>>5656259
Denied by EvaB
'No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game'
They count as humans

>>5656213
But he is Zero.

At first it is believed that Kinzo is real and that the number is ≤18.
Then it is revealed that Kinzo was dead since before the game began and the number becomes ≤17.
Then Erika introduces herself (for some reason no one ever took her number into consideration before) trying to increase the number to 18 claiming that she was the 18th person in red.
But then Beato and Battler says that even if they counted her, the number of people are still 17 in red.

>>5656271
So in short, the zero is counting like any other number. I could be wrong, but I don't see any problem with this actually. It is interresting and it goes with the whole metaphor of the roulette.
>>5656292
It don't change anything if you think about it. Beato also let an extra slot free in the beginning.

Also, the character used when Erika introduced herself was not the same as the one in "17 people" for example.

>>5656314
SOrry, but since it was spammed hell and back, I must say this is a Bleach-level asspull.

>>5656292
>>5656314

Also. This was stated in EP 4.

"No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!
That excludes any 18th person.
In short, this 18th person X does not exist!!
This applies to all games!!! "

Note the usage of "humans" and "person". I'm quite sure this supports the(I'm going to assume I'm not the first one to think of this) "Zero" theory.

>>5656132
Prison break.

>>5656314
>Also, the character used when Erika introduced herself was not the same as the one in "17 people" for example.
I know, that's why she could claim that she was the 18th person/character, while Beato and Battler could still claim that there would still be 17 people/humans.

That is to say that Kanon could still be counted the way Erika said it, but he isn't another human being thus it's still 17 and not 18 people even if there are 18 characters.
At least that was my interpretation.

>>5656277
Can be stretched as you want.
After all, whatever Featherine is saying, a personnality alone isn't an human.
There is also the whole thing "not seeing himself as human" which is supposed to allows Beatrice not to count in the number, if Shkannon is correct.

Whatever. It doesn't contradict this "Zero" theory, for the moment. He is human, you just don't have to start counting from 1.

>>5656331
That's how Erika tried to break the number barrier by introducing herself.
If she would manage to shove an extra human into the whole mix then it would have almost been an auto-win for the human side, that's why Battler also struggled with the idea of adding an additional human.

Otherwise >>5656337

If people find the whole Shanon = 1 and Kanon = 0 thing troublesome, just think of it as Shanon = 0.5 and Kanon = 0.5.

>>5656331
Umineko have always been a semantic mystery to begin with.
The difference between people and person or don't exist or is dead is still annoying.

>>5656369
?
It doesn't have anything in common, does it?

>>5656369
?
It doesn't have anything in common, does it?
(by that, I mean that Kanon = 0,5 and Shannon = 0,5 is pretty much Shkanon)

>>5656362

Right, also.

"She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them.
Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.
Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games. "

It only says people, not humans. At the time of the logic error, Kanon ceases to exist. Perhaps because he finally became human, that's why Erika was able to say she is the eighteenth human? While the number of people remain the same?

Starting from zero(AKA Kanon) and working your way up to sixteen. It counts everyone(Not counting Erika at the moment). If you count Erika, it increases the "number of people by one". Meaning seventeen. Just find this interesting is all.

>>5656198
I thought that when he said he was the 0 on the roulette, it just meant that whatever he was gonna do would fuck up both parties (both the murderer and the people being murdered) and only he would *maybe* get the benefits of whatever this action was.

GUYS GUYS THERE ARE ALSO DIFFERENT NUMERAL SYSTEMS

>>5656394
>>It only says people, not humans. At the time of the logic error, Kanon ceases to exist.

It goes with the theory of Kanon stopping working.

>>5656395

That could be, however he does say "This is neither the Master's rule nor yours. This is my rule...I am no longer furniture...I am the zero on your roulette!"

I think he wants to stop the killings, by killing the people who kill everyone else? Who knows. With the zero theory I can explain every murder except how Kanon can escape the guest house in EP 6. That's the only loose end I have for this theory. You could also say

Kanon=Furniture=Not human.
Yoshiya/Jousha=Human.

After all, in episode 2 right before he "dies". He announces his name to Jessica, you just don't get to see it happen. At the time he might have become a human, thus killing the persona of Kanon off.

>>5656427

"Yoshiya" is a reference to Yeshua, I think. That's what Google gave me.

>>5656427
>I think he wants to stop the killings, by killing the people who kill everyone else?

I've considered this, but then why kill Nanjo in Ep1 (assuming he did kill Nanjo and there wasn't someone else wandering around)? Nanjo has to be complicit in helping him fake his death.

>>5656394

As do I.

>>5656427
I am pretty sure he just leaped out the window of the next room over.

That move was sealed by Dlanor, and Featherine said that as long as that move is sealed, there is no escape other than one move that would most certainly kill Beatrice.
Then Beatrice came up with her witty plan of handing over the burden to explain the room to Erika, forcing her to lift the restriction of the windows.

Erika guessed right when it came to Kanon being in the next room over all along and escaping through the windows, she just missed a certain important detail, Shanon = Kanon.

>>5656474
But Jesus was supposed to be Van Dine, not Kanon
What the.

>>5656474

Oh boy. The original name for Jesus? To die, and then come back to life? Haha.

>>5656490

Maybe Nanjo is the new Kinzo? It would explain why he would help Kanon, and why everyone would accept someone as the new Kinzo in EP 4. Apply this to all games. Kinzo is Nanjo, and is doing something with accomplices to kill everyone. Kanon wants to stop this. It was also said in EP 4 that "Kanon was the first to die in Kyrie's group, in short the ninth victim".

>>5656516

Yep. Yeshua.

Hm... I wonder how Nanjo would become Kinzo.

Why couldn't Kanon just escape through the windows, save Battler, then die for reason X and by method X? For example, right before we see him rescuing Battler, he declares himself a human...i.e. YOSHIYA. Kanon the servant doesnt exist anymore (Kanon is dead, doesnt exist in the room). No need for Shaknon nonsense >_>.

Am I the only one who one thought (I'm not saying that it is still the case) that Sayo and Yoshiya may be different people, but exchange their nickname sometimes?
After all, a nickname is not a real name, and one of the first reason people were thinking about Shkannon ( wayyy back) was because, to them, they looked alike..
and for the part about "can not claims Kanon's name" of ep4; his real name was not Kanon, just like Shannon's real name is not Sayo)

Yes, I know it looks retarded right now, but I am curious, was I the only one who tought about this back?

>>5656540
Shkannon is needed for the window. Except with Kanonzo, where Kinzo is retired because he is "dead"

>>5656506

It was said that Kanon's name can't be used by anyone else...But it never said Shannon's name can't. They ARE titles after all, Kanon might've done a swap-a-roo with Shannon. Also, inb4 people say "All people can only use their own names!!"

>>5656532

Maybe he won a chess game?

>>5656547

That's actually what I'm thinking. Kanon took Shannon's title, servant name, and used her as a disguise. Then escaped via the window and saved Battler.

>>5656532

>>5656579
Kinjo end is best end.

>>5656574

But there's that "People can only use their own names!" bit...

>>5656574
Actually, I've forgetting this theory because of knox 10.

Knox's 10th
It is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves as another without any clues.

But if there is a way which could clean this problem, it would be funny.

>>5656584

Tell me then. Sweetheart, how can someone use Kinzo's name in EP 4? Hmm?

>>5656590

I can also solve that. It was referenced IN FRONT OF BATTLER in EP 1 that Shannon cleaned the garden. However, Kanon said he was the one with the garden shed key, and that it was his job to work in the garden. Using this alongside with the whole Kanon helping Shannon out with cleaning the mansion, that they swap clothes to lighten the work for one another!

>>5656584
Here, it is really a matter of point of view. Is Kanon/Shannon a real name, or a nickname?
It would be pretty stupid as a trick, but he could maybe work if it was the only problem.

Now that I think about it, if Kanon would "become" Shannon, knox 10 would not be a problem. And Kannon and Shannon themselve would be two real entities who are composed of Joshua and Sayo. .

Please note that I am not saying that it is an intelligent theory, or whatever. But I've always found everything about their Nickname strange.

>>5656584
Here, it is really a matter of point of view. Is Kanon/Shannon a real name, or a nickname?
It would be pretty stupid as a trick, but it could maybe work if it was the only problem.

Now that I think about it, if Kanon would "become" Shannon, knox 10 would not be a problem. And Kannon and Shannon themselve would be two real entities who are composed of Joshua and Sayo. .

Please note that I am not saying that it is an intelligent theory, or whatever. But I've always found everything about their Nickname strange.

>>5654279

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>>5654278
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>>5656594
They 'recognized his existence', maybe Krauss convinced them.
Maybe that red doesn't apply to all games.

>>5656594

"All of those who met at the family conference recognized the existence of Kinzo!" They brought his corpse in.

>>5656656
>>5656664

Are we going with small bombs now? I'll counter with the fact that in EP 1 no one knew if it was really Kinzo aside from the fact that there was a sixth toe, and even then some weren't really sure. To further drill a hole into both of your theories.

"No person would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight.
No matter what the disguise, they would not mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo!"

However, they did mistake him in EP 1. I can use this inference as a fact that the Kinzo they accepted was indeed a different Kinzo. Kinzo is a title, just like "Beatrice" is. Eva-Beatrice gained the title after finding the gold, ANGE gained "Beatrice" after being given the ring, headship, and gold. Beatrice is the female title equivalent to Kinzo.

by the way, are we REALLY sure that Shannon and Kanon are not from the same family?
By really, I mean really.
Because Ryukishi changed the Knox which was saying that

Knox's 10th
Twin brothers, and doubles generally, must not appear unless we have been duly prepared for them.

>>5656702

Kinzo was mistaken?

>>5656702
>They 'recognized his existence', maybe Krauss convinced them.
>small bombs
What? They just accepted (='recognized') that he's alive, no need to actually show anything. Maybe Krauss even made a deal, like relatives suggested, and they in turn 'recognized' that he's alive.

>However, they did mistake him in EP 1
Unless you prove that the corpse was not Kinzo's, you can't say that they mistook him.

>>5656794

They were unsure. If it's Kinzo, they cannot be unsure because he cannot be mistaken by sight.

>>5656827
I'd use 'Kinzo (as living person)' and 'corpse' argument, but I won't.

>>5656794

I was saying carrying the corpse into the dining room is a small bombs theory. It doesn't make sense and gets no where.

Unless I prove that it wasn't Kinzo's corpse they then can't mistake him? That would be denying my own argument, would it not? In any case, picture provided. They weren't sure, and this is from Battler's point of view. They could be lying of course, but even Battler didn't know who it was until he used simple logic to deduce that it was "Grandfather". In other words, he also wasn't sure it was Kinzo by sight.

>>5656855

Second part.

Episode 1 still had no red or blue text.

And observers are/were allowed to be mistaken and we all know that Battler never had the detective's authority, and we know tht observers can mistake something for Kinzo as Battler did it in episode 5 (I believe).
Then again, he mistook something "not Kinzo" for Kinzo. I believe what was stated in red was that no one could mistake Kinzo for something "not Kinzo".

Either way, observers can be mistaken and once can't trust the red 100%.

When Erika checks the location of all of the characters, it is before she seals the rooms. Unless you want to assume that she can seal both the doors and windows in both rooms instantly, that leaves plenty of gap for someone from either room to escape via the window.

Kanon escaped by jumping out of the window before it was sealed, and went to the mansion to assist Battler.

Later, Kanon rescued Battler.
Then, Kanon kills himself in the closet for some reason.
Kanon does not exist in the guest room any more than Kinzo does not exist on Rokkenjima.

Closed room resolved without Shkanon. What do you think, everyone..?

>>5657107
Wasn't it described that at the time of the logic error the humans of the next room over was still in the next room over and that everyone else was in the courin's room.

>>5657234
Nope. The only thing that comes up is 'At the time the next room over was sealed, Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo were in it.' And, it is true that 'The cousins' room is guaranteed to be a perfect closed room until the end.' was repeated in red... but it was never stated that all six people inside of the cousin's room were inside when it was sealed.

>>5657291
>it was never stated that all six people inside of the cousin's room were inside when it was sealed
I wish it was, it'd kill shkannon immediately and for good.

[Request: 'Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in the next room over!'] Acknowledged.


[It has already been shown that Kinzo no longer exists, so please remove him from the word 'everyone'.] I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.

?

>>5657348
same person here

I don't remember when this statement was made, does someone do?

>>5657348
Sure, at the time it was repeated, they were all there. But this was 'before Erika sealed the rooms'. And no matter in what order she sealed them, there is a chance for someone from either room to escape.

If she sealed the door to the cousin's room first, someone could escape from the window.
If she sealed the windows to the cousin's room first, someone could leave through the door.

Magic does not exist. There does not exist any way for Erika to seal both simultaneously, as she did not have anyone working with her, so it's not possible for both rooms to become sealed instantly without that chance to exist.

>>5657348
Naturally, Erika also implies that 'everyone' is not includes the victims and herself, but doesn't say Battler to exclude them, like Kinzo, so maybe it's somehow dubious. I decided not to include that Erika's assumption in the wiki.

>>5657365
I've just checked. "I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room" is made before Erika seals the rooms.

>>5657374
Oh fuck, this is a really good point.

JESUS SHIT I'VE DL'D ABOUT THREE DIFFERENT TORRENTS CLAIMING TO BE ISOS FOR EP6 AND THEY AREN'T.
WHERE THE FUCK DO I FIND SOMETHING I CAN INSTALL WITH?

>>5657528
http://www.hongfire.com/forum/showthread.php?t=134482

>>5657528
Sorry you don't meet the minimum requirements to play the game.

>>5657374
I've been thinking the same for a while but feared that if I posted it people would go "LOL INSTANT SEALS" or "SHKANON IS TRUE STOP RESISTING THE TRUTH"

>>5657579
Apparently, most trolls were fed to death and left.

>>5657553
Yes, I know that having the game is one of the minimum requirements. Is it my torrent client? Could it be saving the files as actual files instead of a CCD?

>>5657579
Well, maybe I'm missing something which would make this theory useless, but it sounds really good.
Not everyone on /jp/ is a Shkannonfag (even if most people are)
Moreover, I don"t know if it's relevant, but Erika's position is weaker in this game compared to ep5.

>>5657505
Why thank you. I also feel it makes a great deal more sense than 'personalities = people' and 'Shkanontrice = 1 person with DID'. Really, all of that garbage was so obvious that it's probably just the illusion of the witch trying to trick you into stopping your thinking.

>>5657606
I'm glad to see no one's found something I overlooked yet!

Do you guys talk about nanjo at all? Most of the time hes forgotten and there's no backstory with him. Also even the witches don't even talk about him, or use him in anyway. But think about it, Hes a doctor, he should be really smart and be able too do things with skill.

>>5657643
I'm calling Nanjo as a witch in EP7.

He can be the witch of being a walrus.

>>5657365
Yes. Erika asked Battler to repeat that "everyone" was in the cousins' room. Battler refused on the basis that "that would imply Kinzo's corpse is in that room", so Erika made that adjustment, and then Battler confirmed.

>>5657656
NANJO, Grand Wizard of diabetes.

>>5657643
He also likes chess and mystery novels.

>>5657625
Having Erika save us from shkanon.

Oh, the Irony.

>>5655382
Is she British

>>5657720
as far as I remember, every siesta have this armband

>>5657720
The toy rabbits may very well be "made in brittain".

>>5657625

You're pretty good, you rose good points!

You know, Shkanon doesn't have to be a case of DID if you think about it.

A simple example:

Before 1986 Shannon and Kanon existed as separate people. However, one of them died for some reason. Due to particular circumstances, the one that lived inherited the name of the other one, and also played his/her role.

This way, you've got Shkanon, the Red is met, and no DID.

>>5657374

If she sealed the door first, and then sealed the window she'd be able to see if anyone was missing. However, she didn't light upon such a scene thus you can say that no one left the room. If it was visa versa then I could understand, but this way it makes sense.

>>5657902
Your words are too good for me, Trollkastel.

>>5657928
If the shutters or even the curtains were drawn, she couldn't see in. Conversely, if she could see in, they'd see her, and I'm sure that would raise some very serious questions about why she was outside. She had no reason to look in, anyway, since she was confident that their locations were confirmed via the red.

>>5657948
>since she was confident that their locations were confirmed via the red.

She was confident because it matched up to what she last saw.

Are you trying to say it's impossible for, on a rainy stormy night, a little girl to be hidden in the dark as she seals windows with tape? I'm pretty sure no one would look out the window to see if someone was using a ladder to peep in on them like a dirty little pervert.

Do you guys talk about nanjo at all? Most of the time hes forgotten and there's no backstory with him. Also even the witches don't even talk about him, or use him in anyway. But think about it, Hes a doctor, he should be really smart and be able too do things with skill.

>>5657994

I did use him, he's the new Kinzo.

>>5657903
Their hair color is different. They would have to have fused via MAGIC

>>5657948

>>5657999
There are such things as wigs, mate.

>>5657994

He IS sadly under utilized.

Van Dine is so dreamy

>>5657994
Thats one of the things i don't get, he should be the smartest one there with wisdom and knowledge but hes just doesn't show up at all and doesn't help at all. its just too fishy.

>>5657999
No, they just bald and flat, and use wigs and pads. Isn't it sad, Baaaaaaatora?

>>5658009
WHAT IS?!

>>5657625
>>5657948
I also thought of that the moment I read it.
As I have never really been sure if I wanted such as ShKanon to be the solution.

However,
doesn't this contradict it?
She first sealed the rooms, and -then- she got it confirmed where everyone are, right?

>>5657994
He was funny in episode 4. "Please apply the proper medicine to the affect area."

Also they have a bunch of train puns in that episode.

>>5657994
There's that theory about Kinzo's will and his close friends that carry it out, but nobody seems to like it. ;_;

>>5657985
You can look at it that way if you want, I suppose. I don't have the power to deny the claim that she could see in, but I find it much more likely that the curtains or shutters were closed given the storm; or some overconfidence on her part, or the need to not bother given that she didn't have the detective's proclamation and already had red truth given to her.

>>5658050
No. This is the entire basis for my theory. If you re-read that scene, she first confirms everyone's location, and then the rooms are sealed.

>>5658009
So moe-kastel~

>>5658076

We at least agree on one thing, Shkannon is not needed at all. Anyone that accepts such an answer is that 80% of people who don't fully try to eliminate all possibilities before accepting the improbable.

>>5658076

Beato is clearly supposed to take the blame for the crazy shit that's happened to the Ushiromiya family. Perhaps she is an imaginary being Kinzo is trying to bring into reality thereby washing away their sins? Is Kinzo's ultimate gamble to change reality? If we except that magic is "real", this is a possibility.

>>5657928
the shutters were closed, they check them in every game. She couldn't see.

So basicaly
>Shkanon is person that can switch personalities at will.
>Erika is a phantom
>Everyone is batshit insane
>They're all gonna die

Looks pretty simple to me

We all know that the true truth of all this whole umineko thing is that Battler is already dead and the witches are playing with his soul in a fake dimension based on the rokkenjima island..

>>5658127

It's a fallacy called Appeal to Tradition. Just because it's been repeated throughout the other games does not mean it will repeat in this one. For instance Erika joined in EP 5, someone landing on the island beat the tradition that someone will never land on the island. Unless you have proof from EP 6 specifically saying the window's curtains or shutters were shut at the time Erika sealed them then your is hereby dismissed due to fallacious reasoning.

>>5658163
*then your argument is hereby dismissed

Whoops, fixed.

>>5658163
Since we present arguments for the human side, it's a blue truth, which you must counter with the red. Can you counter it? Oh, you can't. IT'S CHECKMATE!

>>5658196

I don't see any blue.

>>5658129
Erika increases the count by 1
She also has a body, because she went inside Battler's room

>>5658131
>implying that witch exists
>implying that all those meta scene was not a bunch of fanfics created by self insert version of R07.

Hurrrrr

>>5658212
she increases it by X+1
and her body can be anybody's

BTW Shannon and Kanon being one person via the red doesn't work as there is a red saying the "15 people mentioned are dead"

the only real option is to subtract Erika since regardless of whether Shkanon is true or not they always count as two individual people regardless of the situation.

>>5658076
>If you re-read that scene, she first confirms everyone's location, and then the rooms are sealed.
Yeah you are right.
I thought about this myself you see, but I was really really tired and hadn't slept at all at the moment, I bet I simply fooled myself later when I read the parts I posted in the screencaps I posted >>5658050

These caps are posted in order (top first, bottom last), and it does claim (in white though) that Kanon was in the cousin's room and that it was completely sealed.
And here is the deal, in the second screenshot she claims that she "then" checked wether or not everyone else was (other than the next room over etc) was in the cousins room and that it included Kanon.

The "then" part greatily implies (well actually it outright says), that she checked it afterwards.
But that's not the case if you read the actual scenes earlier.

Ryu07.. you can't write like this, it doesn't contribute to the "mystery" and it's just not fair to people who hasn't slept enough.

>>5658229
Read >>5656292 and >>5656337

So its not 1-17 but 0-17 ?
Fucking Kubo...giving bad ideas to everyone.

>>5654666
I'm pretty sure the Even if is concession, like saying "although we welcome you, there are only 17[and not 18] people", not some "whether or not you are here, there are 17 people.

And so the bump limit was reached.
Did you all enjoy the thread?

>>5658337
Are you seriously arguing that the "real truth about Erika she must accept about herself" in that duel is "she's not the eighteenth person, she's the seventeenth"?

>>5658368
Yeah. Less troll than usually.

ShKanon is true.
Stop being idiots.
You can't deny it, because is fucking real.

>>5658076

I'm just glad to see people make theories, instead of not thinking.

>>5658380
no

>>5658380
It looks like a sect when you looks at it this way, doesn't it?

>>5658407
Yeah.
One really shouldn't stop thinking just because one have found some logic that works.

Thing is, if you find something you believe in you should really try to contradict yourself in all ways possible, if you still think your idea is plausible after having compared it to everything else, then, at least you have strengthend your arguments and your overall logic.

Just because you can form a logical "circle" that goes from begining to end and still makes sense, it doesn't necessarily mean the logic you found is "strong".

>>5658487
In this case, it is. Way more than Shkannon.

>>5658516
The "You" referred to anyone actually and the logic thing refered to any kind of logic, really.

>>5658542
In this case, I approve

This was a good thread.

>>5658487
Remember the cheese at the beginning of the chapter? This is an explanation that fits that mode of thinking perfectly. Much moreso than Shkanon.

>>5658584
Yes, I enjoyed this thread quite a bit.