/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[Anonymous No.]

Did you do your reps yet /jp/?

[Anonymous No.]

To the "fluent" people here : how long did it take to fully learn the grammar before you could start learning kanji?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814641
>fully learn the grammar before you could start learning kanji?
epic

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814654
>tfw learning kanji first and not even doing grammar cuz it's 2 hard
help

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814641
I dont even....
What do the two have to do with each other... at all...
>>10814666
96% means you're learning kanjii way too slow, don't worry about perfection, keep adding until your young is at least around 75 and don't change anything drastic unless your mature percentage hits around seventy. Aiming for perfection will just make it impossible to finish, it's a lot easier to refine kanji you're somewhat familiar with than it is to aim for perfection at the start.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814666
stop with your childish memes

no one likes you

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814722
>tfw this nerd just insulted me over the internet
lelly'd. what are you like 5'3 120lbs? fag, i'll crush you like a bug. who the fuck do yo uthink you are talking to, mother fucker? i am 6'2 155lbs 6%BF you would shit your pants if you saw me in real life

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814700
Doesn't having a solid grammar before seriously learning kanji via anki and such on a daily basis more efficient overal?

If you think I'm telling shit then explain why.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814722
Seconded.

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814641
Can't see the relation between kanji and grammar either but can someone tell about his grammar experiences?
Is irt okay to just learn the basics at first and continue with the rest later? It seems pointless to learn everything at once if i don't know enough vocabs to read

[Anonymous No.]

I'm doing Tae Kim at the beginning Hiragana part and it's just indecipherable. He keeps making references to characters that I haven't learned yet.

Do I memorize those charts of hiragana before moving on? If so, how do I memorize them?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814734
If you learn kanji you can read things even though you don't know any of the words, at least enough to get the point. This will make it possible to acquire grammar(and vocabulary) knowledge from real sources rather than textbooks. There's also no reason you couldn't do both but grammar's more a matter of exposure than anything, Think about English or your native tongue, oftentimes things "sound" right or wrong and you have to think a while before you can figure out why. You cant get exposure if you can only read children's books and text books. Also textbooks are boring as balls on top of having unnatural text.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814760

So it's best to learn kanji first? Is grinding in anki the best way?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814763
It's one of the ways, and the way that worked for me so i'm biased. Regardless of the method you use though, you should learn most vocabulary with kanji, because that's how you'll encounter them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814769

How do you know how anyone learned a language as a child?

[Anonymous No.]

Isn't this how you learned a language as a child?

- Words
- Basic sentences
- Grammar

Why would you learn grammar first? Makes it more difficult.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814771
Countless studies. For a more intuitive bent, compare how an older baby a toddler and a young child talk.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814773

Even if this is the case, we did tons of things different as a child because we simply didn't have the hardware then. A toddler is probably physically incapable of understanding things like syntax, inflection, and etc. - that doesn't mean that learning these things first is the wrong approach simply because it isn't how babies did it.

[Anonymous No.]

I love /jp thanks guys

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814778
What's the point of knowing whether an adjective goes before or after a noun if you don't know what the word is in the first place?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814782

It's a part of a whole. We're talking about which things to learn first in order to learn functional Japanese the quickest, not which single thing will make you fluent on its own. Vocabulary or grammar won't do that. You need both at some point.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814759

Anyone?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814759 >>10814787
> Do I memorize those charts of hiragana before moving on?
Yes.
> If so, how do I memorize them?
How did you memorize the latin alphabet? I suggest that you find hiragana practice sheets on the Web and practice on them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814786
And his point that flew over your head is that bad functional japanese with shitty grammar is better than no functional japanese and perfect grammar. Grammar can(and will) be picked up naturally by reading/listening etc. with no effort if you know the words. Knowing the grammar will not help you learn the words..

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814794

>And his point that flew over your head

Maybe "he" should be more clear about what "he" means.

Sounds like he hasn't even learned English properly yet, so I'll ignore his advice on Japanese.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814787
>>>/a/84477098
You should find some tips on how to learn hiragana in that thread. I used heisig and it was quite easy but you have to learn them before you continue

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814760
Thanks for the answer. I'm currently studying with a textbook and on my own with some ressources, I don't find it that "boring", in fact I don't think I would find the same satisfaction with Anki (for now ofc).

That may be because I'm a lazy guy that isn't used to work on his own and need a more structured method to motivate myself.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814794

>Knowing the grammar will not help you learn the words..

um what

yes it will

you are so used to autistic kanji-grinding that you literally cannot imagine any other method? knowing grammar means you can read LNs or VNs and pick up words in their natural environment, where their meaning will be explicitly understood by context (and if not by context, then by way of rikaichan/a text-ripper + dictionary)

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814795
It's proof through example, you really couldn't understand that? Thats.... wow... you're really trying to take the intellectual high ground after that? That's just impressive.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814755
Obviously. Learn as much as you need to start reading and not more. There's no reason to memorize the entire Dictionary of Advanced Japanese Grammar, but it would be equally stupid to attempt reading without knowing at least a dozen common particles, a few conjugation forms and a couple of auxiliary verbs.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814804

How is knowing the grammar more important than knowing the words for reading?

Take everything but nouns and verbs out of a japanese or english sentence. Most of the time it will make perfect sense in context. Then you can use your brainmeats to infer what the participles mean and the proper structure in a matter of seconds.

If you know the words you can read a VN/LN whatever without pausing every two seconds to disrupt the flow with a dictionary.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814813

>How is knowing the grammar more important than knowing the words for reading?

because you can read without the word knowledge (this is how you learn the words,) but you cannot read without the grammar. or you can, but you will simply not be understanding wide stretches of text. there is no effective equivalent of a dictionary for grammar. you cannot look up grammar rules in the same amount of time it takes to look up a word that you can't figure out.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814813

>If you know the words you can read a VN/LN whatever without pausing every two seconds to disrupt the flow with a dictionary.

You only need to do this about 4000 times, and I guarantee they're sticking faster than grinding anki cards. You do not learn best when doing something boring. There is a reason we enjoy emulated fighting (wrestling, play-fighting, etc.)

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814818
>reading while being illiterate

not sure if serious

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814818
remember this?
>Take everything but nouns and verbs out of a japanese or english sentence. Most of the time it will make perfect sense in context. Then you can use your brainmeats to infer what the participles mean and the proper structure in a matter of seconds.

You dont NEED to look up grammar rules if you are doing a high context media, which as a beginner they should be oding anyways.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814830

i'm talking to a wall

you can do whatever you like, it's not my time you're wasting

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814832
Your English grammar is horrible.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814832
Person A makes point A, Person B makes counterpoint B completely ignoring point A.. Both Person B and point B are useless.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814836

person C should suck my cock, dude

[Anonymous No.]

How about learning grammar with anki? Are there any good decks you would suggest? Of course only to memorize things and having read about it properly before

[Anonymous No.]

/jp/ pls
no bully

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814818
>you cannot look up grammar rules

Sure you can. But, especially since Japanese has no spaces, first you need to know the vocabulary to be able to parse the sentence.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814878
>you cannot look up grammar rules

good thing i didn't say 'you cannot look up grammar rules'

>But, especially since Japanese has no spaces, first you need to know the vocabulary to be able to parse the sentence.

we live in the 21st century

we have the technology

[Anonymous No.]

why do people argue so much in these threads?

arguing about the hypothetical best way to learn will never help you actually learn anything.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814882
>i didn't say 'you cannot look up grammar rules'

You did. That's a verbatim quote.

>we live in the 21st century
>we have the technology

If we really had one, learning would be unnecessary. Google Translate would suffice.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814887

>You did. That's a verbatim quote.

really? in that case, your post also says 'o', which is incoherent babble

learn english holy heck dude...

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814887
>Google Translate would suffice.
question.

why does google translate never work? is it impossible for machines to translate some languages?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814885
Because some idiot thinks you can read without actually knowing what the words mean.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814893

It's not as good at grammar as a human.

[Anonymous No.]

Why do I get the feeling that the Tokiko Threadshit Troop has turned to ruining these threads now that NEET threads are gone? They just want the whole board to be about anime.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814899
oh no people are arguing about something

it must be tokiko's fault

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814914

When people are aggressively steering the thread toward argument, even when it has already ended, it's a good sign that someone is trying to ruin the thread.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814926
People get in dumb arguments all the time, and /jp/ has had a thousand dumb arguments about language learning. When people are actually going out of their way to shit up a thread it's pretty fucking obvious.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814893
Shitty grammar and can't understand context and intent

[Anonymous No.]

I think I'm hanging on.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814952
>33K
What deck is that and why are you using it?

[Anonymous No.]

Do you use any mind altering substances to help you learn Japanese faster?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814983

Ramen and pocky, of course.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814961
It's 4 decks and one of them is 20k+

[Anonymous No.]

>>10815000

[Anonymous No.]

>>10814983

I use shabu because it is part of my Japanese spirit.

Nagai-sama synthesized it with all of his wisdom and so I will cherish his creation. If it's good enough for the brave Japanese soldiers of World War 2 then it's good enough for me. I won't believe the western propaganda that tries to tarnish the good name of methamphetamine.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10815012

That stuff is probably leagues better for you than the Western meth made with match scratchings and acetone

Fun blogfact: my dad made meth.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10815016
you should know that i think your dad and you are an infection and the cause of almost all criminal problems.

[Anonymous No.]

Can hypnosis help with studying?

[Anonymous No.]

Sorry if this is off-topic but I didn't want to make new thread. I am starting to learn Japanese but I have one question about this picture. I recognize first three hiragana are まきせ ("ma-ki-se)" and the last one is katakana ム ("mu"). But what is the sign in middle? Is it kanji? I don't know many of them yet. Also does anyone have idea why the artist has written the name by using hiragana instead of kanji? I am confused...

[Anonymous No.]

>>10815430
プリン

[Anonymous No.]

>>10815430
まきせプリン

[Anonymous No.]

>>10815430

The circle-thing is one of those lengtheners, I think

[Anonymous No.]

>>10815444
Of course. That makes sense now. Thanks.

[Anonymous No.]

Why do some Japanese words seem to change their pronunciation when used in sentences? Maybe it's a grammar thing that I haven't learned yet, but I'm going through the vocab deck and a few of these are confusing me.

For example, the word become is なる and the voice file pronounces it that way, but when used in a sentence they drop the る and it turns into なり. I've seen a lot of examples like this so far, they either completely drop the last part of the word or change it, but there doesn't seem to be any obvious reason for why it works this way.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10815500
Funny, you sound like you've never heard of conjugation before.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10815500
It's called conjugation. It's part of grammar. The endings change along with the meaning.

[Anonymous No.]

How do I pronounce 二、三人？
ふた、さんにん
or
に、さんにん

[Anonymous No.]

>>10815564

two three wishbone

[Anonymous No.]

>>10815564
Go run this through Rikai. There's probably a website for this or something but I had this on hand so I didn't bother.
一十一百一千一万一億一歳一日一月一年一本一匹一枚
二十二百二千二万二億二歳二日二月二年二本二匹二枚
三十三百三千三万三億三歳三日三月三年三本三匹三枚
四十四百四千四万四億四歳四日四月四年四本四匹四枚
五十五百五千五万五億五歳五日五月五年五本五匹五枚
六十六百六千六万六億六歳六日六月六年六本六匹六枚
七十七百七千七万七億七歳七日七月七年七本七匹七枚
八十八百八千八万八億八歳八日八月八年八本八匹八枚
九十九百九千九万九億九歳九日九月九年九本九匹九枚

[Anonymous No.]

>>10815611
I know how to pronounce 二人 and 三人, but I don't know if I should read the 二 as if it were alone or not, in 二、三人

[Anonymous No.]

>>10815624
Assuming that 二、三人 is written in order to avoid the repetition of the 人

[Anonymous No.]

>>10815624
Try the DJT on /a/, there's a jap there right now.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10815564
に、さんにん

[Anonymous No.]

Which would you guys recommend for grammar, Genki or Tae Kim?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10815979
Why do 'tards like you keep asking this? Should I use RTK or KD? Should I learn kana or kanji first? Should I learn kanji or vocabulary first? Seriously, did you even spend three seconds searching the archive? Just do both, it's not like you won't be finished within half a week.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10816007
boom roasted

[Anonymous No.]

>>10816991
sorry, i made a mistake. i meant to say direct object particle. did you write that? i'm wondering why you didn't do 初心者を苛めてはだめなの or why you didn't just simply just do 初心者を苛めないで or something.

>初心者を苛めは駄目なの
>辞めて下さい
Bullying beginners is wrong.
Please quit (your job).

初心者を苛めてはだめです
You must not bully beginners

初心者を苛めないで（ください）
Please don't bully beginners

are my examples just not right for that situation or something? please tell me if i'm wrong or something.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10817125
貴方は正しい

でも私はわざと間違えただけでした
貴方を試す為に
だから勘違いしないでっ ！

[Anonymous No.]

Which should I learn, vocabulary or grammar?

[Anonymous No.]

Is it possible to speak understandable Japanese while still removing all of that disingenous polite shit that is all over the language?

If I speak Japanese to someone then I refuse to speak in a way that's anything less than the 100% brutal honesty that you would get from any true American. I will not say please, I will not use honorifics, I will not apologize or bow my head. I am an American and I would sooner die than bow my head in submission. I'll stare everyone in the eyes when I speak to them until the day I die.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10818447
No. It's a part of the culture and language, and you'd look worse than the ungrateful american little shit you are.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10818447
You would talk like a manga character. And people would treat as if you had chuunibyou. Are you prepared for that?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10818447
Understandable, yes, sounding like a complete douche, also yes

[Rooh No.]

Can someone clarify how 円 is pronounced? I'm listening to this woman pronounce 5000円 and she sounds like shes saying goseyen, not gosenen

[Anonymous No.]

>>10818455
>>10818487
Why are you guy responding unironically to an ironic question?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10818491
エン

[Rooh No.]

>>10818506
so it is just ”えん” then

[Anonymous No.]

>>10818447

Roll your R's and say この野郎 at the end of each sentence whenever speaking to someone.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10818552
So like a Mexican?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10818554

Like a tru yakuza otaku.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QzdX_5QVlQ

[Anonymous No.]

>>10818554
exactly, mexicans are actually japanese who crossed the bering strait in the beforetime

[Anonymous No.]

>>10818560

Yakuza are the only Japanese people left who still have confidence and behave like actual men.

[Anonymous No.]

What is the literal translation of この野郎?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10818664
>この
something close to the speaker
>野郎
男性をののしりさげすんでいう語

[Anonymous No.]

>>10818568
>Yakuza
>Japanese

hilarious_reaction_image.gif

[Anonymous No.]

>>10818491
ん is pronounced weirdly when followed by a vowel. 単位 for example

[Anonymous No.]

I skipped my reps for just one day and lost all my gains /jp/. I had 30,000 mature words and 4,000 mature kanji, skipped one day, and now I can't recognize anything. Muh gains... ;_;

[Anonymous No.]

How does this work?
Wear - 着る
Arrive - 着く
Same kanji two different meaning. It's making things hard to memorize.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10818874
>How does this work?
The way you would expect it to.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10818874
wear - to carry or have on the body or about the person as a covering, equipment, ornament, or the like: to wear a coat; to wear a saber; to wear a disguise.

wear - to impair, deteriorate, or consume gradually by use or any continued process: Long illness had worn the bloom from her cheeks.

Fucking english

[Anonymous No.]

>>10818874
聞く is worst

[Anonymous No.]

>>10818906
Same with tear. Fuk english bro.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10818906
And your point?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10818987
His point was that English works much the same way.

[Anonymous No.]

After going through about five LN volumes I'm still reading so slowly. Like 10 pages an hour.

The suffering will never end.

[Anonymous No.]

I've been studying Japanese for week now. I know all hiragana and katakana, and I've started to learn kanji and grammar. I have to say, Japanese is really fascainating language. Meanings of kanji and ways to use them makes learning actually very interesting. I thought learning to read japanese entertainment would be motivation enough, but learning itself is fun and motivating.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10819134
So, are you just blogging (which I don't really mind) or do you want help/advice for anything specific?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10819023
Then by the time you get fast at reading, you realize that reading speed wasn't the only impairment to enjoyment.

I keep pushing myself to read my LNs since I bought like 7 volumes from Book Off a year and half ago, but my enthusiasm is so slow I'm still only on the third one. I just get the feeling that they're something I would have enjoyed when I'm 14, but can't get into now.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10818491
She is correct. Copy her.

[Anonymous No.]

When the raid ends.

[Anonymous No.]

Any good PSP games that use furigana? Thinking about getting the Digimon ones.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10819982
Time Travelers has furigana

[Anonymous No.]

Why the fuck does the jap make the difference between 脚 and 足 so complicated, when it's just that 足 is foot and 脚 is leg?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10820812
Well, think about it for a moment, moron. There isn't a single letter in "foot" that also appears in "leg". Why is English so god-damned complicated? It's basically the same thing, right?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10820831
stop comparating English with Japanese, i'm not a fucking native speak and both are harder to me

[Anonymous No.]

>>10820812
What's even remotely complicated about this?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10820869
I'm talking about the definitions in dictionaries.
Instead of translating 足 as foot and 脚 as leg, they translate both as foot/leg

[Anonymous No.]

>>10820812
>>10820895
When a word has multiple kanji for it, dictionaries just tend to suck and give one definition that goes with all the possible kanji. Your IME has a nice list of definitions for times like that, or just use a japanese->japanese dictionary.

Also, 足 can often mean leg. From the IME:
足：人間・動物などが移動のために使う部分の総称

[Anonymous No.]

>>10820895
I think I know what you're talking about.

From what I can tell, it's a problem with Edict and Edict alone. It often has duplicate definitions for words with the same reading but different kanji. It's basically "we put all possible definitions of all possible spellings together, good luck figuring out which belongs to which": http://jisho.org/words?jap=%E3%81%82%E3%81%97

In cases like this, consult a dictionary that's not based on Edict: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/あし

[Anonymous No.]

Does anyone have a nice set of printable flash cards that I could cut out and then fold in half.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10820980
No.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10820980
>printable flash cards
why.jpg

Physical cards become very unwieldy when you get into the thousands of cards that you'd want if you're going to be serious about grinding Japanese. Just learn to use Anki, and if the portability of physical cards is your concern, get a cheap Android device and install Ankidroid.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10820980
Just use jisho and write teh same fucking shit a tousand times.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10818914
这个是一个中文汉字。

[Anonymous No.]

>>10822071
黙糞中国下手人間!

[Anonymous No.]

What's with my rikai saying that the meaning of 九百 is fool?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10823051
it seems to be fucked up

[Anonymous No.]

>>10822071
チングチャングチョング

[Anonymous No.]

>>10823051
Because that's one meaning it has.
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn2/62742/m0u/

[Anonymous No.]

>>10823051
九百 (くひゃく) is also an old word for idiot.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10823051
⑨⑨⑨⑨⑨⑨⑨⑨⑨⑨⑨⑨

[Anonymous No.]

>>10823141
oh shit

[Anonymous No.]

>>10823127
タク　オダ　プリズ？　ビフ　アンド　ブロコリ？

[Anonymous No.]

>>10823141
Now it all makes sense.

[Anonymous No.]

Finally down to single digit kanji reviews (w+r) a day after doing kanjidamage at ~200 kanji a day average. God damn, for a few weeks after that the reviews were soul crushing. Been practicing by switching between playing jrpgs/moege because the story is mostly obvious even if you don''t speak Japanese and rewatching stuff that already has been burnt into my brain.

I have to admit though, if you aren't going to do it fast (50/day absolute min, 100+ a day is better) I really wouldn't do full heisig/kd/lazy/etc at all. Learn the radicals/pieces and maybe 500-600 of the useful ones and do some context stuff that you'll enjoy. Motivation dies out too quickly otherwise.
Taking a break (10m every 30m) during study or review also raised my recall rates.

If anyone else is using the anki deck for kanjidamage what was really helpful to me was to change the front of the cards.
Bulk copy compounds to a new field and use a regex to batch replace the card's kanji in all compounds with __, strip all pronunciation kana and stick the new field on the front.
ex.
apologize (write) or 謝 (read)
に 感__ する
__罪 する

English definitions if you want them I guess or even better: in Japanese context examples . For some reason after doing this the vocab just stuck like mad.