Why don't visual novel developers switch to 3D models already?

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Anonymous Sun Oct 20 22:59:16 2013 No.11546973 [Reply] [Original]

Why don't visual novel developers switch to 3D models already?

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 20 23:14:14 2013 No.11546990 You've never played an Illusion/Teatime game, have you? Trust me, you don't want this. Japanese programmers can barely code a functional 2D VN, let's not make things too complicated for them.

>>	RapeWhistle !P0IfHjzAm. Sun Oct 20 23:19:44 2013 No.11547002 File: 362 KB, 702x767, 1360150496477.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11546973 2D is beautiful

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 20 23:30:14 2013 No.11547025 File: 204 KB, 1694x981, 2013-10-20_22-26-10.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11546973 Besides the obvious porn pose simulators aforementioned in Illusion and Teatime, some others do, like Communication with Sonico, or Time Leap.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 20 23:31:14 2013 No.11547027 File: 72 KB, 369x1153, 013_20131017022406fc8.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I like when they meet in the middle with 2.5D

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 20 23:34:29 2013 No.11547035 I can't wait for superior clothing based combat.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 02:16:13 2013 No.11547346 3D cannot yet fully emulate the beauty of two dimensional art. >>11546973 >>11547025 ...but it's slowly getting there.

Anonymous Mon Oct 21 02:29:43 2013 No.11547387

True 3D in VNs would be time-intensive for very little benefit. The only way 3D could help is 'static 3D' which is what a lot of concept artists do currently: roughly draw something in 2D, make it to order in 3D in the exact same pose/etc (not as a general purpose model,) then render that model in the same pose using lighting/textures of your choice, bring it into photoshop and use its nature as a model to do things you couldn't if it was 2D (eg. work on textures more accurately, etc.)

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 02:41:30 2013 No.11547409 >>11546973 because VNs are supposed to be made on the cheap by otaku fagets who don't have a long enough attention span to deal with 3D graphics, let alone optimize them.

Anonymous Mon Oct 21 03:56:03 2013 No.11547610

>>11547025
>>11546973
/3/ here.
Played some Illusion games, etc.
They're far too low poly and they're awful. They have poor shading, clip everywhere, and are sloppily animated.
Given that they are allowed to use pre-rendered 3DCG, the situation could possibly improve. An acceptable alternative is 2D planes in a 3D environment. I imagine nobody cares about anything other than the characters anyhow.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 04:12:51 2013 No.11547654 >>11546973 what >>11547610 said + it 3D would be too distracting and VN's would lose the charm 2D gives.

Anonymous Mon Oct 21 04:17:36 2013 No.11547666
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>>11547409
I hope you know most VNs are expensive as fuck to make. There were complaints that costs of CG were insane, most costing around $70 per.
>>11546973
Most are already doing that. Alice-Soft created Rance Quest with 3D models for the combat and navigating.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 04:30:36 2013 No.11547690 File: 65 KB, 1024x576, re_dial_feat__hatsune_miku_by_flexiblemoony-d5z1vl8.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Most of them look like shit. That said, i'd love to see a quality 3D VN. Vocaloid producers can do it, why can't VN devs?

Anonymous Mon Oct 21 04:45:23 2013 No.11547734 [SPOILER]

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>>11547666
>I hope you know most VNs are expensive as fuck to make. There were complaints that costs of CG were insane, most costing around $70 per

My sides haven't been this stealthy in awhile..

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 05:16:39 2013 No.11547790 I hated it when Street Fighter went to 3D and I'm going to pray to god that VNs won't ever go 3D. Sprites look so much better.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 05:20:40 2013 No.11547800 >>11547690 It's not really a VN, but the latest Phoenix Wright has 3D visuals replacing the original 2D sprites, and it works incredibly well. They actually look and animate better, though that could be due to the 3D.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 05:22:25 2013 No.11547801 >>11547800 Yeah, I've seen it, but it's pretty much an exception from the rule. I'm thinking it might have to do with Phoenix Wright being simply more popular than VNs so it probably had a much bigger budget too.

polite sage Mon Oct 21 05:31:11 2013 No.11547815

>>11547801
That and 3D models are apparently very hard to do, especially when you add cel shading to the mix.
Still, it's nice to see 3D models catching up to animation in quality and detail, even if it's possibly 10x the work for something that doesn't entirely capture the look.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 05:40:27 2013 No.11547838 The sequel to 999 does this. Too bad it's just more pseudoscientific garbage from the same guy. Fuck that author, man.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 05:42:12 2013 No.11547845 >>11547838 Yeah it looks really nice but I'm afraid to play it since the story will probably suck. I hated 999, but the puzzles and the premise were nice.

Anonymous Mon Oct 21 10:15:30 2013 No.11548394

>>11547734
But that anon is somewhat right, you know. I would change "most" for "good" though.

http://web.archive.org/web/20101019060604/http://zepy.momotato.com/2008/09/09/eroge-production/

And these are values from years ago before the devaluation of the Japanese yen and Abenomics.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 10:36:03 2013 No.11548424 >>11546973 3D models are less appealing than 2D drawings, especially considering the budget limitations (cheap 2D is WAY better looking than cheap 3D).

Anonymous Mon Oct 21 10:38:49 2013 No.11548428

3D models need resources. You need to have good programmers, good 3D modelers, good 3D artists, for a very mixed result. Additionally, Japan is the land of the Windows 3.11, and asking people here to have a decent graphic cards to play your VN seems still ridiculous to your average developer. PS3 and hand-held VN could use 3D capabilities, but the other barriers remain.

3D is the future alright, but the far future. There is several studio trying to do 3D VN, but the lack of tools and competent 3D artists is preventing any step forward in the next years.

You need to remember that today, 90% of the VN in the market are done by a team of three to four people with the resources of the average Japanese household for a month. Even then, the VA takes a major share of the money available. Paying a scripter for the computer stuff and one artist for the drawing stuff is okay, but paying a competent developer and a competent 3d artist is still out of question.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 11:09:19 2013 No.11548488 >>11548428 >PS3 and hand-held VN could use 3D capabilities, but the other barriers remain. It would be really cool to see a 3DS VN game.

>>	RapeWhistle !P0IfHjzAm. Mon Oct 21 11:11:06 2013 No.11548494 >>11548488 LovePlus 3D

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 11:13:50 2013 No.11548500 >>11548494 It's not exactly a VN.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 11:22:06 2013 No.11548525 >>11548488 999's sequel.

Anonymous Mon Oct 21 11:33:22 2013 No.11548548

>>11548428
This. Drawing is a layman's job compared to 3D modeling. Because in addition to all the regular skills you need for drawing, i.e. anatomy, composition, design and whatever, you also need to be able to handle 3D modeling tools which are usually extremely complex. Oh, and even if managed to grab someone who can do decent 3D models, you still haven't animated a single finger.

Anonymous Mon Oct 21 14:30:47 2013 No.11548872

What advantages would there be? Smoother/existent animation, sure, but transitioning from one awkward looping animation to another just looks silly no matter what you try. Making custom animations for every line or using cinematic camerawork are also not options for something with as much content as your typical VN.

>>11548548
Considering that people have made realistic sculptures millennia before any person could draw somewhat decently, I'd say you're undervaluing illustrators quite a bit there. I won't deny that making a 3D model is more complex and time consuming that drawing a single illustration, though.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 14:33:33 2013 No.11548877 iDOLM@STER though I don't know if you can call them VNs

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 15:00:32 2013 No.11548914 >>11548428 Fuck 3D man, I'm already sick of it thanks to anime and games going from sprites to it. Shit's never going to have the same feeling and charm as 2D

Anonymous Mon Oct 21 15:26:38 2013 No.11548951

>>11548872
2D artists are ridiculously underpaid in Japan. I won't enter into any heated argument between the compared difficulty of 2D and 3D, but in Japan, you can expect your underpaid, starving artist to deliver a hundred CG by the end of the month for twenty yens and a snack.

"Expect" is a big word though. Japanese 2D artists are notoriously unreliable, but it's another problem entirely.

Anyway, a decent VN can be made with two or three people and 100 000 yens. Some group would even consider such founding as plentiful.

That VN situation matches closely the anime situation. It's a cancerous capitalistic system which will hopefully implode some way or another in the next years, but for now, it means that 3D is simply not affordable for the majority of the groups.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 15:29:08 2013 No.11548962 3D is only really good for stuff like FPS, flight simulators or RTS games like Homeworld. For most of other genres it actually makes things worse and uglier (see Broken Sword 3)

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 15:35:23 2013 No.11548968 >>11548951 If this is true I could hire a game company to make a game of my choosing every month But, I still think that you are exaggerating. Show me facts.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 15:41:23 2013 No.11548976 >>11548968 He's exaggerating, shit's cheap but not that cheap - see >>11548394

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 15:41:24 2013 No.11548977 File: 493 KB, 600x1087, 34234234.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11548951 http://vnchan.com/thread-310.html

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 16:02:40 2013 No.11549027 >>11548976 >>11548394 >Event line art >8,000 ~ 15,000 yen or 50,000 ~ 80,000 yen per image I kind of suspected this. No way an eroge costs only 100k yen. 100k dollars? Sure, if you hire a dream team or something.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 17:17:09 2013 No.11549201 >>11548977 That's just awful, I guess that's why visual novels are so pricey.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 17:31:40 2013 No.11549224 >>11549201 It's still pretty fucking cheap compared to most games that aren't indie trash

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 19:12:38 2013 No.11549417 >>11549224 I can get a new triple-A games at $60 while the price of new VN is around 8,000-9,000 yen, some can be more.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 19:14:08 2013 No.11549420 Uncle Mugen wrote a good article about this.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 19:23:39 2013 No.11549439 I wouldn't mind 2D VN's, as long as the art was good and they actually had more than a handful of sprites for characters. Just having "Concerned, angry, sad, crying, happy" doesn't cut it for every single situation in the novel.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 19:25:09 2013 No.11549444 Manga-style art doesn't map to a 3D model. There are too many abstractions. For example, a nose might be perfectly visible in profile, but disappear completely in a front-on shot. The anime girl simply cannot exist in a three-dimensional form.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 19:28:39 2013 No.11549446 >>11549444 Explain figures

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 19:29:53 2013 No.11549451 File: 129 KB, 1280x720, [Leopard-Raws] Tesagure! Bukatsu-mono - 03 RAW (NTV 1280x720 x264 AAC).mp4_snapshot_04.54_[2013.10.21_19.28.27].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11549444 3d can do anything, even side mouths.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 19:31:54 2013 No.11549457 File: 161 KB, 1280x720, [Leopard-Raws] Tesagure! Bukatsu-mono - 03 RAW (NTV 1280x720 x264 AAC).mp4_snapshot_06.16_[2013.10.21_19.31.10].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11549451 This is a better shot actually

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 19:35:09 2013 No.11549463 >>11549451 >>11549457 looks so dead

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 19:37:54 2013 No.11549468 File: 140 KB, 960x544, God-Eater-2_2013_07-26-13_032.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] how is this?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 19:38:09 2013 No.11549471 >>11549451 >>11549457 Still looks pretty bad compared to 2D. It's getting better, though, I'll admit that.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 19:39:54 2013 No.11549477 >>11549463 They just realize what a pointless and shallow existence they lead. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2NHwqqaGpU

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 19:40:10 2013 No.11549479 >>11549451 >>11549457 The models still look a bit too uncanny and blocky, but it's getting there. The shading is prefect though, it's just a matter of being at the right angle and it would really look 2D.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 19:49:53 2013 No.11549497 File: 1.01 MB, 768x1280, Screenshot_2013-10-21-19-47-30.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I'd be alright with models like the ones from the Nepu app.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 19:53:38 2013 No.11549504 File: 1.13 MB, 165x201, 1354168400840.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I'm happy with the state of simulated 3D moe.

Anonymous Mon Oct 21 19:56:54 2013 No.11549508
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>>11549446
The figures aren't accurate representations of the original animation model sheets, because those model sheets can't be represented as any sort of 3D or physical model (until we come up with some sort of crazy perception-sensitive matter).

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 21 23:30:38 2013 No.11549827 >>11548914 The new Guilty Gear is doing a pretty good job with it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 22 00:14:00 2013 No.11549884 >>11549508 how does he move the ears it's a mask what the fuck ?

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 22 01:49:53 2013 No.11549972 >>11549439 This always bugged me. It isn't that much work to change the expressions on the sprite, it shouldn't be very expensive to add more than 5.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 22 01:51:23 2013 No.11549975 >>11549508 I would be pretty fine with models looking like figures. I like figures. >>11549504 What game is this one from?

>>	he who can't make a single pos(...) Tue Oct 22 01:53:38 2013 No.11549981 >>11549497 It's Live2D though and not a full 3D.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 22 02:13:53 2013 No.11550009 >>11549975 >What game is this one from? Idolm@ster

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 22 02:19:26 2013 No.11550016 >>11550009 Fuck I'm dumb.

Anonymous Tue Oct 22 03:03:29 2013 No.11550098
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>>11549439
Have you played Chusingura?
It has so fucking much sprites that represent almost every single act of the characters, there are even alot of sprites that used only once.
Just saying.

Anonymous Tue Oct 22 03:14:14 2013 No.11550123
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Did anyone play LoveDeath2? The FPS was shitty and the game was fully 3D. There was even free roam but it was too 5fps for me to see anything.

Pic not related.

Anonymous Tue Oct 22 05:00:21 2013 No.11550310
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The technology for 3D to not look horrendously different is getting there certainly.

But VNs haven't even reached the point of consistently implementing moving mouths and that is a fairly trivial thing from an art standpoint that's been around for several years. Expecting these companies to have the resources to implement a good 3D engine and then the manpower to actually do anything useful with it after is a bit much, even if it gives you the option to do a lot of things much cheaper eventually.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 22 08:51:16 2013 No.11550680 >>11549975 >I would be pretty fine with models looking like figures. I like figures. What about actual figures? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Qo4jp3B75U

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 22 08:54:31 2013 No.11550684 >>11550310 Arpeggio is one of the worst looking uses of 3D this season.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 22 09:16:46 2013 No.11550722 File: 591 KB, 800x600, canonslut.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Some 2D artists simply have artwork too stylised to be replicated with 3D.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 22 09:25:16 2013 No.11550732 >>11548877 >iDOLM@STER though I don't know if you can call them VNs I love iDOLM@STER, but certainly not because of the graphic quality.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 22 09:25:46 2013 No.11550733 3d is still shit. I would love more live2d games, though.

Anonymous Tue Oct 22 10:01:09 2013 No.11550816

Anyone think Live2D (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrLnF7CQ8Ac)) might have a future in galge?

I think it almost perfectly captures the charm of 2D, while being a lot more immersive. And if you combine it with headtracking technology as well, I think it could vastly deepen the emotional impact of a galge scene.

On the other hand, it obviously requires more effort. Not just to make the model, but also to implement expressions in a more realistic way, because with live animated images, you can't leave it frozen in one expression like you can do with 2D sprites. You'd have to make a distinction between reactionary expressions (shock, grinning, etc), and idle expressions/moods (worried expression, happy expression). The former would require more specific timing with the dialogue, and the latter would require more subtlety. Still, this also applies to 3D animated stuff, and that's already being produced. But that also implies that it will mostly be the ones who are already making 3D games (high budget commercial developers) who will be able to make use of Live2D. Which is sad, because the smaller developers make the best scenarios.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 22 10:05:24 2013 No.11550819 File: 503 KB, 1280x720, tumblr_mrb91hLQCi1sx2fa1o1_1280.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >The future of Visual Novels lies in… 3D?

Anonymous Tue Oct 22 10:07:23 2013 No.11550820
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And from Mugen's other blog:
http://studiomugenjohncel.wordpress.com/2013/04/14/next-mission-organic-3d-modeling/

Studio Mugenjohncel is at the forefront of visual novel technology.

Anonymous Tue Oct 22 10:37:27 2013 No.11550885

>>11550816
I hope this takes off. Adding 3D animation to 2D images (as opposed to just rendering 3D models) leaves way more room for style, especially considering that the ideal expressions you want might correspond to an impossible object in 3D.

I don't mind if they never get the full range of motion, a living portrait is plenty enough for me.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 22 10:42:41 2013 No.11550894 >>11550885 >>11550816 For Visual Novels, I think I enjoyed Windmill's E-mote better than what I was able to experience with Shizuku Talk. Although if they added headtracking it may be nicer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuK_6FjLWAw

Anonymous Tue Oct 22 10:44:27 2013 No.11550898
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You guys, 3D is actually CHEAPER than 2D in most of the cases. For 2D sprites, you have to pay again and again and again for every single variation...and while they may not seem much while playing, usually there are secretly tons of them. Kyou from Clannad, for example, has 140 different sprites. If you have a 3D model, you can just repose the model for each different expression, which is generally a lot cheaper.

The reason it's not used more often is because it looks like shit unless you sink a significant amount of money into it. Acceptable 2D is cheaper than acceptable 3D.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 22 10:45:13 2013 No.11550900 >>11550898 So in short we could say; It's cheaper, except when it isn't.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 22 10:46:13 2013 No.11550901 >>11550894 It's good work but I think it suffers a bit by not having natural idle animations.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 22 10:47:57 2013 No.11550902 I don't see why we can't have both. Some games could use 3D and some use 2D. Also, as far as 3D games go I thought Photo Kano looked fantastic. (granted it was in an emulator and graphically enhanced but there's also a vita version that look good.)

Anonymous Tue Oct 22 10:51:56 2013 No.11550914
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>>11547610
>An acceptable alternative is 2D planes in a 3D environment. I imagine nobody cares about anything other than the characters anyhow.
No, screw you. Background art fans do exist, and replacing awesome background art with shitty 3D is NOT acceptable.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 22 10:52:42 2013 No.11550917 >>11550914 TOO SHINY.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 22 11:02:45 2013 No.11550935 >>11550914 though you'll have to concede that the focus will probably always be on characters, not backgrounds. and they'll never be comparable to shinkai wallpapers. ;_;

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 22 12:18:03 2013 No.11551062 >>11550898 3D requires more work up front (the rigging) but is cheaper for animation that doesn't change the model's topology. Since VNs aren't big on animation this makes 3D kinda useless

Anonymous Tue Oct 22 12:27:07 2013 No.11551078

>>11549027
>100k dollars? Sure, if you hire a dream team or something.
Not really.
The next Toneworks game has a planned budget of a bit less than 23,000,000 Yen if I remember correctly, and I wouldn't exactly call that staff a dream team.
Granted, it's also planned to be on the very high end budget wise, especially for a moege.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 22 13:18:53 2013 No.11551173 >>11550935 Shinkai worked on Ef's OP with Tenmon. Probably one of the better things of that game, though.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 22 15:05:00 2013 No.11551351 >>11550914 No fan of backgrounds, but I can go the opposite and hate the backgrounds of games like Higurashi/Umineko. Usually I focus all attention on sprites so I won't notice the terrible photoshop filtered backgrounds.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 22 15:23:46 2013 No.11551378 >>11549508 >can't be represented as any sort of 3D you could distort the model depending on camera position. 3DCG is not bound by limitations of euclidean metrics. But most renderers aren't designed for such trickery.

Anonymous Tue Oct 22 15:25:45 2013 No.11551379
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>>11550684
Some shots look like shit, but were it not full 3D the 2D budget would be so pitiful it they would probably look considerably more shit than that anyways. At least it's halfway on model even if it gets stiff or the lighting is slightly off occasionally.

In terms of rendering it does do the job when they try.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 22 16:02:51 2013 No.11551467 because animation takes more effort than drawing 6 variations of the same image for different emotions and because most jap otaku use ancient toasters with windows XP

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 22 16:56:09 2013 No.11551615 >>11551467 How about you read the thread before your post, anon?

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 23 05:15:46 2013 No.11553314 >>11550894 How does it work? There's pitifully little information.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 23 05:55:49 2013 No.11553365 >>11553314 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW0XFpYCQ_8

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 23 06:37:52 2013 No.11553416 >>11550894 Can E-mote be downloaded online, or do I have to buy a retail copy?

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 23 06:46:38 2013 No.11553431 >>11553365 Thank you a lot.

Anonymous Wed Oct 23 10:38:10 2013 No.11553870
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>>11553314
You mean, how E-mote works? That other anon posted for Live2D (What Shizuku Talk uses) which isn't quite the same but pretty similar concept anyways.

E-mote was a project for Windmill's 10th anniversary and it was probably developed in-house without such documentation or public source code, unlike Live2D which was a work on a university and obviously had some sort of documentation. So the most you would get is probably the official page and the about section.
http://windmill.suki.jp/product/witch/concept.html#emote

>>11553416
They haven't commercialized the engine for some reason, maybe they just want to use it in their own products. Although I heard they'll be using it for Light's Electro Arms, so I have no idea, really. I should check out the trial.
http://www.light.gr.jp/light/products/electro-arms/download/index.html

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 23 11:02:56 2013 No.11553926 >>11553870 Wow, you got Witch's Garden running. Still trying to get it to work...

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 23 11:36:58 2013 No.11554002 >>11553926 I never ran into any problems since launch, so I don't know how to help, sorry.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 23 11:38:58 2013 No.11554012 >>11554002 Maybe the package is bad. No other windmill games had this issue. Running on a VM might have something to do with it, though. Eh, I'll find out eventually.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 23 14:38:26 2013 No.11554441 >>11546973 They already exist but most arent that great They will get better with time That said I loved the technique they used in the PSP Oreimo games

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 23 14:53:41 2013 No.11554477 Wasn't there some recent-ish role-playing game where they traditionally animated the characters in a 3D environment, or something? There was also a pretty-looking game made by Studio Ghibli. Maybe that was it.

Anonymous Wed Oct 23 14:56:57 2013 No.11554484

One of the things that always bothers me about 3D anime-style models isn't so much the models themselves, but the shading. Even if they manage to emulate two-tone or three-tone shading, the change from light to dark always looks blurry, or the contours are either too simple or too detailed.

Does anyone have any examples of anime-style shading that looks true to animation? Whether it's from a game, a tech demo, or even something rendered.

Anonymous Wed Oct 23 15:15:30 2013 No.11554523

>>11554477
You're probably talking about TokiTowa/Time and Eternity. The end result is rather clumsy-looking, though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAsx28md6Sg
The Ghibli one is Ni no Kuni. It's quite pretty, but fully 3D and the animation was mostly motion captured.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 23 15:20:30 2013 No.11554541 >>11553870 >They haven't commercialized the engine for some reason Damn everything. They'll probably be crushed by dev cost and the entire thing will vanish into the ether.

Anonymous Wed Oct 23 15:25:12 2013 No.11554563

>>11554523
>The end result is rather clumsy-looking, though

Oh, I only saw stills. The animation is pretty nice and it's a good experiment, but that does look pretty jarring.

Reminds me of Wonder Project J2, which is a Nintendo 64 that has great animation.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 23 15:44:42 2013 No.11554600 >>11554541 Maybe they do but not officially to the common public, as I said, apparently Electro Arms has it and that's by Light. >>11554523 The Studio Ghibli game isn't Tokitowa, it's Ni no Kuni. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biwIz8-EcSU

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 23 15:45:43 2013 No.11554602 >>11554600 Ah, didn't read your full post and you said the same thing. Derp.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 23 20:00:07 2013 No.11555128 >>11554484 How do you feel about Xrd? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5pkaWp8Xso

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 23 20:17:09 2013 No.11555163 >>11555128 Wow this is actually looks good. The future is bright.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 23 20:21:39 2013 No.11555167 >>11555163 This. I think it still has some of the same problems as a lot of cel-shaded stuff (fuzzy shading, poor outlining, polygonal) but it's definitely a step in the right direction.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 23 20:34:23 2013 No.11555183 File: 451 KB, 800x800, 38419240_big_p0.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11555128 Really nice detail on Mei's armpits.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 23 20:56:27 2013 No.11555211 3DMPDM

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 23 20:59:27 2013 No.11555219 >>11547025 > writing out SoniComi What the fuck is your deal

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 23 23:25:55 2013 No.11555358 >>11555219 Nothing, I like the full name.

Anonymous Thu Oct 24 22:23:25 2013 No.11558021

>>11549444
>nose example
It's probably better not to talk when you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Have you ever even seen an MMD model? Are you a troll?

>>11549471
That looks bad because the modeller is balls.

>>11555167
That's because they're rendering with the game engine and game models.

Anonymous Thu Oct 24 22:31:25 2013 No.11558036

>>11558021
Here again, and I'd like to add that I think the real problem is that 3d animation is simply too perfect. People have made headway into re-engineering human error/inefficiency and personality which makes 2d/anime look like what it does into 3d work via things like dropping frames rate and algorithms to distort images, but there are still some aspects about 2d art which tell you a human made it that are hard to reproduce. I don't know the theory behind it but I expect it's strongly related to whether your brain detects that it has to "fill in gaps" or not in certain places(thus frame dropping is assumed to be part of the solution).

Not that I don't love 3d myself.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 25 05:38:53 2013 No.11558627 >>11555211 What does this mean

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 25 05:44:38 2013 No.11558636 >>11558627 Looks to me like 3DPD with M for model added.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 25 06:17:26 2013 No.11558686 Does 3d use any of the animation principles like squash and stretch?

Anonymous Fri Oct 25 07:17:57 2013 No.11558793

>>11546990
What he said.
A notable exception being the Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm fighting games. Maybe if that engine was available for VNs, it would work out sort of. But then you will need a few tens of modellers to make up the graphics, rather than just the one or two artists now.

Anonymous Fri Oct 25 10:44:31 2013 No.11559162
File: 771 KB, 800x600, ev04_099a01.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I find it ridiculous that first thing that people have against 3D is characters and not the backgrounds, when there already are plenty of games where the character models look great, and look like drawn 2D on a still shot, but there's no way to reproduce backgrounds like this.

Anonymous Fri Oct 25 11:30:35 2013 No.11559337

>>11559162
Because the focus of VNs are characters, not backgrounds (we established this a little earlier in the thread).

If studios ever really moved towards 3D I'm sure many would keep the background artists on hand.

Personally, I'm still okay with heavily shop'd photos for BGs (assuming they took a decent enough photo to begin with).

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 25 12:14:08 2013 No.11559470 >>11546973 >Why don't visual novel developers switch to 3D models already? The whole question is ridiculous, it's like asking why painters haven't become sculptors already.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 25 12:34:40 2013 No.11559505 Isn't the basic idea of using 3D modeling to make stuff look more real? I can do without that.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 25 12:58:12 2013 No.11559560 >>11559470 Well? Why haven't they?

Anonymous Fri Oct 25 13:28:30 2013 No.11559622

>>11559337
>>11559162
>>11550917

3DCG backgrounds can look decent if the artist has a concept of how to manipulate the garbage [3D program of your choice] spits out. Manual redraw + filters is faster than making the whole thing by hand and still looks nice if the artist is capable. Badriel and ArsenX are two people that do decent work here. Of course the shit they make it FOR is beneath all critique but that's not the point; It looks pretty.

Anonymous Fri Oct 25 13:49:45 2013 No.11559666

The only possible upside I can think of for using 3D models in VNs would be that giving characters tons of animations would become cheaper. However, base costs would rise by a shitload, immediately eliminating this advantage AND the VN would then look like a shitty videogame instead of a proper VN.

Anonymous Sat Oct 26 02:27:17 2013 No.11560963
File: 77 KB, 640x384, qYFQPgP.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Time Travelers on 3DS looks really fucking good for a 3ds game, and its basically a VN.

Screenshots don't do it justice in my opinion though, playing the demo it looked really nice.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 28 14:32:16 2013 No.11568014 >>11546973 3d would only help make sex scenes more interesting, and only if they used good models

Anonymous Mon Oct 28 14:38:15 2013 No.11568022

>>11558686
We do, somewhat. But only in animations that don't simulate reality.
Most humanoids are treated as solid-bodies that don't deform, whereas just about anything else is soft-body we pump into our physics engines and "squash and stretch" tends to be automatic because squash and stretch is in fact a property many objects.

Anonymous Mon Oct 28 14:44:02 2013 No.11568040

>>11549444
/3/ here again, this is wrong.
For those kinds of shapes, artists like to invert the normals of a face. This shows the objects inside of the face, which means you can in fact have these manga-type faces.
However, because you're fucking with normals, which the rendering engine uses to interact with light, this means that renders that use the inverted normals technique only work if the render is in the cel-shaded style.
>>>/3/389003

Anonymous Mon Oct 28 20:17:13 2013 No.11568814

>>11568040
It's very interesting. Only recently I've been dabbling into 3D Modeling and obviously this is the type of creations I would like to make, but I don't know where to start myself. I've seen myuRanRan's models and games and that's what I'd aim to model myself. He works on 3DMax though and I've only started to dabble on Blender.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjHEcGtqn5A

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 29 13:17:58 2013 No.11570770 >>11560963 Dammit, I was just about to mention Time Travelers. Phoenix Wright is also a VN that uses 3D now. Models are expensive, though. It would make animation cheaper, but it's still more expensive than no animation.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 29 13:47:30 2013 No.11570845 >>11559470 Well, I mean Da Vinchi asked it.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 30 06:07:46 2013 No.11572716 One thing that annoys the shit out of me with 3D models are looped pose animations. That shit looks awful.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 30 12:03:42 2013 No.11573209 >>11549468 I like it. But that's a game with budget, something VN doesn't have.

Anonymous Wed Oct 30 23:55:44 2013 No.11574774

i have had the idea of using expressionless stock sprites and just overlaying their emotions, hair, etc in the form of loadouts when working with renpy and it saved me a lot of space and time

i think using 3d assets to create backgrounds and scenes is really nice too

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 31 12:41:21 2013 No.11576276 File: 731 KB, 1600x923, forgotten forest.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I'd love some 3D backgrounds like this. I imagine it'd be too expensive, though.

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