/jp/ - Otaku Culture

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Anonymous Fri Jul 10 05:31:02 2009 No.2916089 [Reply] [Original]

I know you got to see this shit every day, anyway I have to ask your help. I'm tired of shitty fan translations and now I want to read manga and watch anime in their original language. So, /jp/, yesterday I started Googling for a good hour and found some interesting results. But before starting, can you suggest me the best free online resource to learn Japanese? Also, when studying Katakana and Hiragana, what's the best method for memorizing all those symbols? Manually copying them on paper?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 05:34:02 2009 No.2916097 http://www.guidetojapanese.org/index.html as a start to learning grammar. can't really say much about learning kana, i just brute forced it in under a week.

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 05:39:02 2009 No.2916122

>>2916097
Danke sehr!
Also, what do you mean by brute forced? Started studying it like a mad fucker? And how long will learning base japanese ( enough to read manga ) will take if I start spending whole days on it? I learn languages fast, I learned base Spanish in two days.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 05:40:02 2009 No.2916126 Learning the hiragana and katakana will be the easiest thing you do. I memorized each one in 1 night of study each. After that things get hairy.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 05:47:02 2009 No.2916156 Watching fan subs when you can understand over half the words in Japanese is really fucking annoying. Just a warning, you can never go back.

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 05:48:02 2009 No.2916162

>>2916122
>Also, what do you mean by brute forced?
Yes, rote memorization. Took about a day for the first 46 hiragana, another for the voiced consonants, and a bit longer for katakana. Using a flashcard like system helps for retention as well as improving recognition speed.

Can't help for other stuff since I stalled at learning kanji characters. People recommend all sorts of different ways for learning kanji. One such is using Heisig's method--it seems to work for some people, although many people are vocal about their opposition to it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 05:48:02 2009 No.2916163 >>2916156 Don't watch fansubs then

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 05:52:02 2009 No.2916192

As with learning any language, the best thing to do is constantly expose yourself to it. You just gotta keep practicing and never stop. You see the hiragana and katakana? That's the easy part.

Wait till you start learning kanji.

There's somewhere around over 3,000 kanji that are considered standard for everyday use. Also considering that each kanji's reading changes in conjunction with other kanji, you've got a shit load to memorize before you're even capable of reading something without looking up every other character.

You want to learn enough to read manga? That probably won't happen very soon regardless of how dedicated you are. It's definitely not something you will be able to read at a base level in two days. Honestly? I'd say it takes years, especially if this is your first exposure to kanji/Chinese characters. You're just going to have to keep writing them over and over until they stick with you.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 05:54:02 2009 No.2916203 http://www.davidhallgren.se/nihon/kanaPractice.asp?txtAnswer=o&Text1=Check+answer This site will teach you Hiragana. That's a decent start.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 05:56:02 2009 No.2916212 >>2916192 Is correct. You should be able to watch anime raws pretty fast though (within a few months to a year) if you put your mind to it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 05:58:02 2009 No.2916219 >>2916192 You can learn to read easy manga (like yotsuba) in a few months, and harder manga with a few more months with a little effort. Kanji really aren't all that hard.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 05:58:02 2009 No.2916222 http://www.choplair.org/?en/Kana%20no%20quiz Best program out there for learning Hiragana and Katakana.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 06:07:02 2009 No.2916287 I hear you will most likely NEVER need more than 2,000 kanji. Why do people keep saying 3,000 for basic reading?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 06:14:02 2009 No.2916328 You "only" need to learn 1945 kanji. If they're not on some list there is usually accompanied by furigana. Furigana is basically subscript hiragana by kanji which tells you how to pronounce it(if you know hiragana).

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 06:20:02 2009 No.2916366 >>2916328 Plus the hundreds of other kanji that show up in everyday writing.

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 10:22:02 2009 No.2917396

>>2916089
AllJapaneseAllTheTime
Google it. If you don't start doing it, then at least read the blog a bit!

>>2916192
It doesn't take years. Depending on how fast you can do kanji, half a year may well be enough for you to start reading manga. You won't understand everything right away, of course. But keep on doing it. The more you do it, the easier it will become.

>>2916328
2000+ aren't enough for real everyday stuff. I don't have personal experience about how much you need, but I think 3000 will do.

There's way too much to explain, so read this instead:
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/about

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 10:24:02 2009 No.2917404 >>2917396 Memorizing 3,000 very different and odd looking symbols and their meanings, and also their combined meanings seems a little out of reach. Does anyone else feel this way, or am I just a retard?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 10:28:02 2009 No.2917413 Tae Kims' grammar guide + Kanji Dicks. Do it faggot. Any guide with romanji is useless and you should avoid it like a motherfucker.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 10:32:02 2009 No.2917427 Genki hasn't been mentioned yet? It's really good for beginner. Tae Kim's Guide is good too. I used both of them at the same time.

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 10:39:02 2009 No.2917445

>>2917404
Using a method like Heisigs together with an SRS makes learning the kanji much easier. It seems like a lot, but if you can do, say 25 every day, you can get the first 2000 in 4-ish months. You won't need all 3000 right away.
There's more to it, but just read the blog, linked a few posts above, and it'll become much clearer.

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 10:43:02 2009 No.2917457

Quoted from the blog

"So how did I do it? Well, by spending 18-24 hours a day doing something, anything in Japanese (”all Japanese, all the time”). That sounds like a lot of time to invest, but I was almost as busy as you are"

SPENDING 18-24 HOURS A DAY?? HOLY SHIT. IS THIS GUY EVEN HUMAN?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 10:46:02 2009 No.2917463 >>2917457 He counts sleeping because he's an idiot and doesn't understand that you can't learn in your sleep. As for waking hours, it's not that difficult. Just read VNs/manga etc.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 10:51:02 2009 No.2917475 Bookmark these: http://www.smart.fm http://www.livemocha.com http://www.lang-8.com And it's a hair under 2000 kanji that's required, not 3000.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 10:55:02 2009 No.2917484 >>2917463 Those are the the "common use" characters as set by the government, but I keep seeing characters every day, which do not belong to those 2000.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 10:58:02 2009 No.2917493 >>2917484 learn them as they come. If you don't know, either infer from the context what it could mean, or look it up, then learn it. If you know the regular ones, and then only learn a few at a time when you come across them, it should be fine.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 11:22:02 2009 No.2917565 Anyone who recommneds AJATT should be ignored and regarded as a troll.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 11:23:02 2009 No.2917570 >>2917565 Why do you think so?

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 11:29:02 2009 No.2917585

>>2917570
Nobody who has used the AJATT has ever reached a high level of proficiency. It is a dumb circle jerk site with obvious shit such as "immersion". Holy shit sherlock. Anyone who has learned a second language knows that you have to find your own manerisms to learn shit. If you are too stupid to find out these simple things you are not cut out for learning a language.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 11:33:02 2009 No.2917599 >>2917585 You sound angry. You sound bitter. You sound like you don't have a clue what you're saying, and you'd rather just be a sourpuss.

>>	Red !4Ruskia3xU Fri Jul 10 11:39:02 2009 No.2917626 >>2917413 I second this guy.

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 11:52:32 2009 No.2917680 [DELETED]

>>2917570

I've skimmed through the site and it doesn't seem to be a total scam. It recommends SRS and stuff, but other than that it looks like new age bullshit.

As already said, everyone knows that you need to be around a language to learn it. That's nothing new. Though with that said, bombarding your body with something new is NOT healthy. This method is impractical and unnecessary.

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 11:54:02 2009 No.2917694

>>2917570

I've skimmed through the site and it doesn't seem to be a total scam. It recommends SRS and stuff, but other than that it looks like new age bullshit.

As already said, everyone knows that you need to be around a language to learn it. That's nothing new. Though with that said, bombarding your body with something new is NOT healthy. This method is impractical and unnecessary.

Also, why is it that I see this recommended all the time yet never hear about anyone having success with it?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 11:55:02 2009 No.2917701 >>2917694 >Also, why is it that I see this recommended all the time yet never hear about anyone having success with it? Because it's only a few people forcing it. I wouldn't be surprised if it's the guy running the blog.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 11:56:02 2009 No.2917703 Has anyone here actually had success with anything?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 11:56:02 2009 No.2917704 >>2917413 What he said, but add jisho.org and then go torrent PDFs of a bunch of Japanese textbooks. And I mean a BUNCH, like 50 or so, and find the ones you like. Genki is probably the most popular one.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 11:57:02 2009 No.2917714 >>2917703 Traditional study here, and I'm reading VNs after 2 years. Can't comment on the effectiveness of Heisig or AJATT, since I never tried them.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 11:59:02 2009 No.2917723 AJATT looks like an interesting read. You guys are being so critical about it, but I think it might be worth a shot. He made some good points about not starting with grammar first. I think I agree with him on that.

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 12:09:02 2009 No.2917784

Everyone has to find their own efficient way of learning. All you can do is offer sources and regard what did and did not personally work for you. But the next anon will not be like you. They'll learn differently.

I'm doing it at a snail's pace compared to the rest of you, but I'm learning.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 12:15:02 2009 No.2917803 I wanted to learn too, but with all these resources I have no clue where to start. It's so overwhelming I pretty much am at a stand still.

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 12:17:02 2009 No.2917821

AJATT only works if you live in Japan.

Watching animes, reading mangas, and playing VNs will not magically make you proficient at Japanese.

Study, study, study your ass off.

With that being said, I learned Japanese from actually living in Japan. I pity you poor saps that try and do it from your rooms.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 12:18:02 2009 No.2917825 Confusedfag here. Wtf is this? What's Katakana? What's Hiragana? What's Kanji? Are they just the different ways to write the "alphabets" in Japanese?

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 12:25:02 2009 No.2917863

>>2917723

I think that's ridiculous. You do need to learn the grammar *with* the vocabulary.

AJATT seems to have this thinking that an adult can learn a language the same way a two year old can. We're already past that stage. We need to learn a new language through one we're already fluent in.

>>2917821

I'm doing just fine in my room. I've been studying myself for a year now and I can understand much of anime, games, and manga without English translation.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 12:26:02 2009 No.2917875 File: 47 KB, 655x560, g5g45gh45.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2917821 >animes >mangas

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 12:29:02 2009 No.2917888 ゑ motherfuckers

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 12:30:02 2009 No.2917889 >>2917863 Yet you're still in your room.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 12:31:02 2009 No.2917891 >>2917888 we

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 12:35:02 2009 No.2917902 >>2917889 ...And I'm fine with that. I could get a job, my own apartment, go to Japan, and get a girlfriend, but I don't want to.

>>	Lyper !!0T5kQLp1RpL Fri Jul 10 12:39:02 2009 No.2917918 File: 295 KB, 640x825, 1227980723016.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] What's the best shit to ''remember the kanji''? I think about using Kanji Gold... IDK, what is /jp/ fav?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 12:40:02 2009 No.2917925 >>2917902 cool story 兄弟

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 12:42:02 2009 No.2917940 >>2917918 I use Anki everyday in conjunction with a 2級 vocab book I purchased. I quite like it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 12:43:02 2009 No.2917941 You may laught, but I learned hiragana/katakana and some basic kanji by plaything this game: http://lrnj.com/ I just played the free version. It's quite good if you have visual memory, the only problem is that you don't practice writing.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 12:44:02 2009 No.2917945 >>2917902 How pathetic.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 12:47:02 2009 No.2917957 >>2917825 op's pic is katakana

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 12:49:02 2009 No.2917966 >>2917825 Hiragana is the alphabet used for Japanese words and Katakana is the alphabet used for foreign words. Kanji are Chinese characters.

>>	Rafflesia Fri Jul 10 12:52:02 2009 No.2917980 >>2917918 I took Chinese first.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 12:55:02 2009 No.2917992 >>2917941 I just downloaded the free version for windows and it's full of trojans...

>>	Lyper !!0T5kQLp1RpL Fri Jul 10 12:58:02 2009 No.2917999 >>2917992 Is that real? I was going to... And I use no anti-virus...

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 12:58:02 2009 No.2918003

>>2917863
At least it gets you rid of "thinking in your own language, speaking in a foreign."
Besides I still haven't found a en-ja dictionary which could *explain* me the words, not give me several words in another language to infer the meaning from.
Also, I get to immerse myself into the langauge even more by doing it all in Japanese.

I did almost everything in Japanese. With only minimal previous Japanese knowledge, and a solid knowledge of Kanji, I was able to start comprehending seemingly impossible scripture. Sure it was difficult, and sometimes though, but I made it.

>>2917821
At the very least you will learn to understand VNs, which I believe is a formidable asset in understanding Japanese, and you'd have to learn that anyway to really be fluent.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 13:04:02 2009 No.2918034 >>2917999 Use online virus scanner if you think it's a trap. Or you can google and see that the game has been around for ages.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 13:06:02 2009 No.2918042 >>2917999 Unfortunately yes "Virus or unwanted program 'TR/Crypt.ZPACK.Gen [trojan]' detected in file 'C:\Users\----\Downloads\sfa.exe. Action performed: Delete file"

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 13:07:02 2009 No.2918050 File: 176 KB, 1134x669, full force in the..jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2918003 Yeah, until you go around thinking everybody says "お前" and whatnot.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 13:10:02 2009 No.2918059 >>2917999 And by the way, get an antivirus, seriously. Your computer is in danger, especially in this kind of imageboards

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 13:11:02 2009 No.2918063 >>2917966 Thanks.

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 13:17:02 2009 No.2918090

These threads always make me laugh. It's always some guy on an impulse who's like "ALRIGHT I FINALLY WANT TO LEARN NIP" with idiots trying to reassure him saying "YEAH IT TOOK ME A FEW MONTHS TO LEARN 2000 KANJI AND NOW I'M FLUENT"

I have never seen anyone learn Japanese properly in under 3 years. That's with about 2~4 hours of work every fucking night.

You might as well just give up now. You should have started about 5 years ago.

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 13:18:02 2009 No.2918097

>>2918042
http://www.virustotal.com/analisis/b339ebc3e671de7cd754e476f45d27516f30e90c6c5db4b79223ca4d6b7d7b12-
1247246381

5/41
Fake positive. It show up because it's self extracting archive.

I did play it like a year ago, never had probs with it. I don't think the author would do anything silly considering it's a years old project.

Anonymous Fri Jul 10 13:31:02 2009 No.2918170

>>2917821
>Watching animes, reading mangas, and playing VNs will not magically make you proficient at Japanese.
It will make you proficient. Proficient at watching animes, reading mangas and playing VNs.
Not that the knowledge you gain is only applicable in those contexts, but what more could you hope for?

>>2917863
>You do need to learn the grammar *with* the vocabulary.
This is only necessary in the beginning to get the basics down. After a while you should be able to pick up a real dictionary (in Japanese, and no, edict is not a real dictionary) and go from there.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 13:43:02 2009 No.2918237 >>2918050 What? You mean anime and reality are different? Really? Thank you, I'd never have realized that.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 18:24:02 2009 No.2919820 >>2918050 What? You mean anime and reality are different? Really? Thank you, I'd never have realized that.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 10 18:31:02 2009 No.2919839 >>2918237 If you're going to bump your own shit at least come up with something new to say.

>>	qua?! Anonymous Fri Jul 10 18:37:02 2009 No.2919867 smart.fm

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 00:34:02 2009 No.2921495

The kana are pretty simple to learn. I just started learning a few weeks ago, and I already have them all down pat. Once you start seeing them over and over again in the course of learning vocab and kanji and grammar, you won't have a problem remembering.

PROTIP: When you learn vocabulary, try to connect the Japanese word directly to its meaning, not its translation. For instance, when you learn the kanji for "mountain", don't think of the word "mountain", think about mountains. This is something I didn't do while taking mandatory high school Spanish, but I am doing it now, and it really helps me remember.

tl;dr: get Japanese Flip for your iphone/ipodtouch it's like $5 go buy it come on

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 00:48:02 2009 No.2921576 >>2921495 >tl;dr: get Japanese Flip for your iphone/ipodtouch it's like $5 go buy it come on Yeah, but the iphone/ipodtouch costs ~$200...

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 00:55:02 2009 No.2921614

The nouryoukushiken ikkyu says an applicant should have 900 hours of hard study time, 2,000 kanji, and a vocab of 10,000 words. On the proficiency test, you have to watch out for the fucking mind games and the small tricks with strokes they throw in to see if you can think in japanese as well. Only after this will you be able to pick up any manga or anime and watch it and understand more than 85%. Unless you live there, most will still be lost to slang and obscure conjugations that you'll never get learning outside of Japan. Get some elementary japanese testbooks for japanese children after the first few years.

Token !!ncUHFztPA0/ Sat Jul 11 01:08:02 2009 No.2921679

Ok be prepared. Japanese isn't like spanish or french where you can listen to a recording and learn it over night. This is a tough language like russian chinese. If you aren't going to be serious about it, just stop. You'll only waste your time. Reading manga is a good reason to want to learn but try to create a second reason or you might lose interest over time.

Now some tips to get started

-learn hiragana and katakana first. preferably katakana first to see the most progress in your use of the language. Almost all japanese websites use katakana for buttons and the words are just an Engrish translation of English words. If you can sound them out, you can navigate a japanese site easily. Won't do much for actual reading of text and material.
-learning those two should take no more than a month with even the laziest of anon. Just repeat the chart over and over again until you can do it in record speed without cheating.

-SAVE KANJI FOR LAST. Ok not really last but you don't have much reason to learn it right away. I'm sure somebody already said heisig but learning some generic (and often incorrect) meaning for a kanji without regard to its reading is just silly. Just use rikaichan to translate kanji you don't understand for now. Not bashing the method. Its just not for me. Always remember multiple aids are better than one.

Token !!ncUHFztPA0/ Sat Jul 11 01:09:02 2009 No.2921685

cont'>>2921679

-I don't have any lessons sights because I learned from a private teacher but try getting a penpal. I got mine from japan-guide.com
We have been talking for 3 years now. I started not speaking a word of the language and now we are talking about politics and college together in Japanese. Even just a basic sentence in japanese in between English will help. You need to use it if you want to get good.

-Children's books. Try doraemon once you get basic grammar down. Also I just remembered that tae kim's guide to japanese grammar will help a lot. http://www.guidetojapanese.org/index.html#contents
So study that then start reading basic manga. This will teach you some phrases that don't directly translate and you can pick up a few words here and there. I got mine at a japanese book store but I'm sure you can find a scanned raw or buy it on amazon.

-once you feel like tackling kanji, use multiple methods. No one is better than all of them. If you have a DS get kenken DS 3. Even my penpal uses this to practice for the real kanji test in Japan. If you can pass all of the levels, you will have learned all of the basic use kanji and then some. Its great for practice because you can use the touch screen as unlimited paper that corrects you. It also doubles as a kanji dictionary that lets you write in a kanji you see to find the meaning. Stroke order is important though.
The only drawback to this is that the entire game is in japanese. Not to hard to feel your way around though..

Good luck and stick to it. Also if you just want to read hentai manga or something. don't struggle with hard grammar too much. sometimes I swear those books are written for children. some of the easiest grammer around. Either that or they are using porno script writers.
"I'm here to clean your pipes"
"Oh yeah lets fuck"

Token !!ncUHFztPA0/ Sat Jul 11 01:13:02 2009 No.2921713

>>2916287
The basic use is a little over 1000. Anything else is obscure nonsense that hardly ever gets used outside of legal documents. Managa especially hardly uses kanji much less complicated ones. I'm only at the level 8 stuff and can already read most of what they throw at me.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 01:18:02 2009 No.2921749

>>2921679
>learning those two should take no more than a month with even the laziest of anon.
I hope you mean a week. If it takes you a month to learn the kana you need to question your learning methods or dedication, otherwise you'll really struggle later on.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 01:25:02 2009 No.2921780 heisig's kana and kanji books are best. learned kana, stroke order, and dictionary order in 6 hours.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 01:27:02 2009 No.2921788 >>2921780 Remove the words "and kanji" from this guy's post, and he's right. Heisig is fine for learning the kana.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 01:28:02 2009 No.2921793 File: 22 KB, 545x545, 1229810521240.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2921679 >russian chinese

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 01:29:02 2009 No.2921796 File: 30 KB, 384x256, humanjapanese6_iphone.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2921495 have you tried human japanese on the iphone? its a good, friendly introduction into the grammar and kana. audio for all the vocab too. no kanji though.

>>	Token !!ncUHFztPA0/ Sat Jul 11 01:29:02 2009 No.2921799 >>2921749 I said a month because I learned them back in high school in between work in class. Couldn't exactly spend all day in the basement cramming kana. If you have plenty of free time then yes a week is more than enough.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 01:29:02 2009 No.2921801 >>2921713 You are a bald-faced liar.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 01:31:02 2009 No.2921808 kanjidicks is like heisig+pronunciation. you need to know at least 5000 kanji to be a functional adult. cant read a newspaper only knowing 2000. writers tend to know upwards of 15000+ kanji

Token !!ncUHFztPA0/ Sat Jul 11 01:32:02 2009 No.2921813

>>2921801
ok. I just realized the basic use is more like 2000 kanji but I do understand most of the ero stuff. I can read basic h-manga and children's book with my kanji knowledge. Especially shounen books which almost always have furigana making kanji useless.

Token !!ncUHFztPA0/ Sat Jul 11 01:35:02 2009 No.2921830

>>2921808
The number gets higher every time somebody mentions it. Seriously 2000 is all the basic /jp/ user needs unless you plan on working in Japan. Even that is pushing it. VN might have more kanji but manga is rarely heavy in kanji. Mostly hiragana and the same basic kanji used over and over again.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 01:36:02 2009 No.2921833 >>2921813 only useless if you know the meaning. kanji helps the meaning. you have no idea what youre talking about

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 01:38:02 2009 No.2921838 >>2921830 the government says you should know ~2000 by the time you graduate high school. college graduates know at the very least ~3000. if you want to settle for illiterate, fine, but dont spread lies.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 01:39:02 2009 No.2921843

>>2921808
>you need to know at least 5000 kanji to be a functional adult.
>cant read a newspaper only knowing 2000. >writers tend to know upwards of 15000+ kanji
You're thinking of Chinese, bro. Even writers only need 3,000ish. Anything rarer than that is written in kana.

Token !!ncUHFztPA0/ Sat Jul 11 01:40:02 2009 No.2921845

>>2921833
I'm not saying don't do kanji or that they should remove kanji. Kanji makes reading faster and easier. Just saying that you can learn what the hiragana and pronunciation of a word and be just fine. Kanji would still help in compounds but even then you can learn compound meanings until you feel up to the challenge of learning the basic use kanji.

Token !!ncUHFztPA0/ Sat Jul 11 01:43:02 2009 No.2921857

>>2921838
Illiterate? So a person is not literate in their own language until they go to college? You're fucking retarded.

Unless you plan to get a job in Japan, the basic use kanji will be pleanty. If you come across something you don't know, do what a sane person does and learn it as it comes. If you want to learn 5000 characters just to use less than half, be my guest.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 01:45:02 2009 No.2921867 >>2921799 I learned it in a few days while going to college. I'm not trying to dickwave (it's not even impressive) I just don't want beginners to dread learning something so easy.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 01:45:02 2009 No.2921871 >>2921857 you cant read a newspaper with 2000 kanji. just try it though lol.

>>	Token !!ncUHFztPA0/ Sat Jul 11 01:46:02 2009 No.2921875 >>2921867 Ok. I was just being lazy with it. Didn't really have any determination to learn it at the time. It is the easiest part of the language to learn.

Token !!ncUHFztPA0/ Sat Jul 11 01:50:02 2009 No.2921897

>>2921871
Who the fuck even reads a newspaper? Don't you get the news? Those things are losing money. Read the OP again.

I'm tired of shitty fan translations and now I want to read manga and watch anime in their original language.

>read manga and watch anime
>manga and anime
>Japanese cartoons usually directed towards a younger audience.

I doubt he needs that much kanji knowledge for what he wants to do with the language. He doesn't need ANY kanji knowledge to watch raws. still you should do it because it helps you understanding of how the language works and how words are formed. from there you can infer the meaning of words you have never heard or seen before. Kind of like how latin helps you understanding of English or any of the Latin based language.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 01:50:02 2009 No.2921900

>>2921857
>If you come across something you don't know, do what a sane person does and learn it as it comes.
and then you end up knowing 3000-10000+ kanji. funny how that works huh?
english literates know about 20,000 words. doesn't mean we use them all everyday. its not far-fetched for a japnese to know 10000+ kanji. writers especially, as a way to express nuance or be different, they will use obscure kanji. not kana.

Token !!ncUHFztPA0/ Sat Jul 11 01:57:02 2009 No.2921933

>>2921900
Again. OP isn't trying to read Shakespeare in Japanese. Yes as people fluent in English we know thousands of words and phrases. But if somebody wanted to American cartoons or comics, you wouldn't recommend they learn all of those words would you? You're going to waste OP's time and make him want to quit when really it isn't even as hard as you make it out to be. If you strive to learn to read complex novels newspapers and legal documents (all boring), then go ahead and learn the 4k + kanji you will need to know. OP wants to read manga and watch anime untranslated. most of those are aimed at kids under 14. Learn the basic use stuff, some phrases and vocab and you will be golden.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 01:59:02 2009 No.2921948 15,000 kanji, 5,000 kanji for reading... lol you people don't know shit. this is hilarious.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:03:02 2009 No.2921969 >>2921933 your mistake is you think OP only wants shonen or manga/anime aimed for kids. if he wants to go into things meant for adults, he'll have to know more kanji, obviously. >>2921948 its shocking i know, but its the truth.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:04:02 2009 No.2921973 >>2921933 Anime and manga cover all sorts of topics. Complex words are going to come up. Over and over. And over. It's much easier to just learn the the words than to be constantly confused and irritated.

Token !!ncUHFztPA0/ Sat Jul 11 02:10:02 2009 No.2921998

>>2921969
>>2921973
Even then, a high school graduate should know enough kanji and vocab to read most manga. Learning a new word shouldn't be irritating. It should be a pleasure and a sign of how much progress you have made. Don't you feel the same way when reading your own language and you find something that makes you break out the dictionary?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:12:02 2009 No.2922006 >>2921998 And exactly how many kanji do you think a high school graduate would know?

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:14:02 2009 No.2922014

Don't try to scare people. Don't try to sound like you know something when you don't.

1,945 jouyo kanji (essentially almost all the kanji you will need to know).

I trust Tae Kim. Every guide I read says the same. 3,000 kanji for basic reading? You sirs, are unawares.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:16:02 2009 No.2922024

>>2921998
no. a high school graduate should know enough to read high school level material and below. but you will end up knowing atleast 3000+ if you want to move to things aimed at adults. it seems you agree with me too.

>Learning a new word shouldn't be irritating. It should be a pleasure and a sign of how much progress you have made

i never said learning kanji/vocab is irritating. im giving the OP a realistic number of kanji to aim for. i find it fun learning kanji, since the radicals link em all together. and really, 3000 isnt that much.

>>	Token !!ncUHFztPA0/ Sat Jul 11 02:17:02 2009 No.2922030 >>2922006 the basic use jouyou kanji plus the couple hundred name kanji. In total just a little over 2k. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C5%8Dy%C5%8D_kanji

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:19:02 2009 No.2922046 I learned kanji by being Chinese, desu ^____^ Let me taste your jealous white tears

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:19:02 2009 No.2922049 >>2922024 You aren't even close to par on the English language. How are we supposed to believe for a second that you know anything at all about Japanese?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:19:02 2009 No.2922050 >>2922014 1,945 is the absolute minimum. People know far more kanji, and those kanji are going to show up constantly. >3,000 kanji for basic reading? For reading manga? Yes.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:20:02 2009 No.2922052

>>2922014
the joyo is what a high school graduate is expected to know. obviously they will know more than that. what with technical terms in their hobbies, wanting to read adult topics, etc.
languages are living and breathing things. theres no set number to know.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:21:02 2009 No.2922061 >>2922050 I don't know why, but I find you very hard to believe. I seriously doubt you even have any sort of grasp on the Japanese language outside of wikipedia.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:21:02 2009 No.2922065 >>2922049 as long as the message gets across, its fine with me. im never serious on a chan

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:24:02 2009 No.2922072 >>2922061 look. just learn the joyo kanji and try to read something aimed for adults. see how far you get before you reach for a dictionary.

>>	Token !!ncUHFztPA0/ Sat Jul 11 02:25:02 2009 No.2922081 >>2922072 Anime is rarely for adults. Even the most serious of anime are usually just for older teens.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:26:02 2009 No.2922083 Jesus Christ you idiots The 1945 kanji list exists for a reason. Other kanji will have furigana.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:27:02 2009 No.2922091 >>2922083 See, now this man.. Seems believable.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:28:02 2009 No.2922097 >>2922061 Says someone who honestly thinks you only need to know around 2,000 kanji.

Token !!ncUHFztPA0/ Sat Jul 11 02:29:02 2009 No.2922106

>>2922083
This. Those rare kanji almost always have furigana even in manga that generally do not use furigana. Just think. You say that the jouyou are just barely literate and you would learn 1000 more if you went to college. What kind of profit could you expect to make by eliminating such a large audience?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:30:02 2009 No.2922110 >>2922097 Learn the Japanese language and you'll probably notice how every other words is written without archaic kanji to simplify it for normal everyday Japanese.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:30:02 2009 No.2922112 But Katakana/Hiragana is fuck easy

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:32:02 2009 No.2922119 File: 2.20 MB, 1138x1636, belle_starr_17.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2922083 Except for when they won't.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:33:02 2009 No.2922129 >>2922110 Who's talking about archaic kanji? We're talking about non-approved.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:35:02 2009 No.2922134

>>2922081
again, anime covers a wide spectrum dude. the most serious anime isnt aimed at teens, dont kid yourself. if you are watching anime after you hit 12, you are probably an otaku. and you may or may not know, anime for otaku can get very esoteric with their terms. try to watch evangelion knowing only the joyo. you wont be able to understand the deeper plot.

also, the OP said anime and manga, unless you forgot.

you are now realizing im right, i dont care about your ego though. just admit you were wrong and learn from it. act like an adult. people make mistakes.

>>2922106
ok say you know the pronunciation. does that mean you know the meaning? no. japanese is full of homonyms. you WILL look up the kanji in a dictionary regardless if you know how to say it or not. THATS the very purpose of kanji, to convey meaning. pronunciation is useless by itself.

and by looking up the kanji you will know more than the joyo.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:37:02 2009 No.2922145 >>2922119 Um.. I can almost read that and I only know hiragana + katakana. I think you need a better example.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:38:02 2009 No.2922154

>>2922134
You seem to assume that just because you only know the joyo kanji, you only know the meaning of those and not a single other word...

it doesn't work that way. Once you have the furigana, you have more than what you need to understand what's being said.

IHBT

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:39:02 2009 No.2922156 >>2922110 >>2922083 Hi, furigana shows you how to pronounce the word. You won't be able to understand it, just say it. Are you guys completely new to nihongo? >archaic nice weasel word. i think you mean non-jouyou kanji

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:39:02 2009 No.2922157 >>2922145 lol ok

Token !!ncUHFztPA0/ Sat Jul 11 02:41:02 2009 No.2922166

>>2922119
What a terrible example. Nothing there constitutes learning 3000 kanji. Not to mention most of it was kana. Seriously its the same faggy phrases over and over again.

会った
教えて
出来ません
来る・行く
覚える
殺して
運命
命
岸
妹　姉　兄　弟

etc. You could learn all of those as they come or just learn the basic use and be done with it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:43:02 2009 No.2922177 >>2922156 >weasel word gb2/wikipedia/

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:43:02 2009 No.2922180 >>2922145 reading doesnt mean understanding.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:43:02 2009 No.2922181 >>2922154 no, you dont. furigana is pronouciation. not meaning. heres one word in kana. がん please tell me what it means.

Token !!ncUHFztPA0/ Sat Jul 11 02:45:02 2009 No.2922192

>>2922134
There is no kanji in spoken japanese. Some things just have to come from context. Like I said going without kanji isn't something to do forever buts its not such a big deal in the beginning.
I still stand by my opinion that you only need about 2k kanji for basic reading. Sure you'll find some complicated kanji here and there but they will probably have furigana and if not, just look it up and add it to your knowledge. Doesn't constitute learning every kanji ever just to read some comics.

>>	Sakura !!sCKns1iPkwx Sat Jul 11 02:46:02 2009 No.2922193 >>2922181 Context is helpful too bro.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:46:02 2009 No.2922194 >>2922166 It was meant to show that you can't use furigana as a crutch, because not all manga use it. >Nothing there constitutes learning 3000 kanji. No shit. >You could learn all of those as they come There ya go.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:48:02 2009 No.2922204 >>2922181 what's the context?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:50:02 2009 No.2922217 >>2922156 If you have the context and the furigana you usually won't need to know the kanji provided you know the word.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:51:02 2009 No.2922224

>>2922192
>only need about 2k kanji for basic reading.
look I agree with you. BUT, and this is the main point, you will need to know more if you want to read like a japanese adult.
>Doesn't constitute learning every kanji ever just to read some comics.
I never said that. I said you should know more than the jouyou to read adult manga/books, or a newspaper.

We all understand you should know the jouyou kanji in the beginning, but it doesnt end there. There are alot of common kanji in daily use that are NOT in the jouyou list.

Token !!ncUHFztPA0/ Sat Jul 11 02:54:02 2009 No.2922236

>>2922180
I could UNDERSTAND most of it even with my shit kanji knowledge. If I knew all of the jouyou I could probably read the entire thing and infere the meaning of kanji I don't know from context. From there I would just add the to ones I should practice. Somebody already said a language is a constantly changing thing. Even being fluent we learn new words all the time. I'm not sure but maybe circle the kanji in that image that aren't part of the jouyou or name list (most of the names were katakana).

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:54:02 2009 No.2922238 >>2922204 >>2922193 >>2922217 heres the full sentence in kana. がんになる

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:54:02 2009 No.2922245 >>2922217 >provided you know the word. So instead of 3,000 kanji, he just needs to know 3,000 words?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:55:02 2009 No.2922248 >>2922236 so you agree that you will need to know more than the jouyou to read like an adult right?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:56:02 2009 No.2922254 >>2922238 So I just found a slip of paper lying around that had JUST this sentence on it? Was it in a fortune cookie or something? Because that would be disturbing.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:58:02 2009 No.2922261 >>2922254 its a short message. but you have your furigana and context. so tell me what the word is. i know its hard because its just pronunciation. YOU WILL NEED TO KNOW THE KANJI. even if you hear it in conversation.

Token !!ncUHFztPA0/ Sat Jul 11 02:58:02 2009 No.2922264

>>2922194
He didn't say skip kanji because everything uses furigana. He was saying when the author gets into non jouyou kanji, they generally give it furigana because not everybody knows them and they don't want to inconvenience their readers. newspapers of course don't give a shit but Manga almost always do this.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:58:02 2009 No.2922270 >>2922238 Wait, does this mean "to get cancer"?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 02:59:02 2009 No.2922272 >>2922261 But I don't have the context. Where did I obtain the short message? Why are there no other messages?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:00:02 2009 No.2922281 >>2922270 well that CAN fit. but not what it meant.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:02:02 2009 No.2922292 >>2922264 >when the author gets into non jouyou kanji, they generally give it furigana "Generally" being the key word here.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:03:02 2009 No.2922296

>>2922248
Sometimes I think you people do this on purpose.

If you know your joyo, you will have enough to read ANYTHING. You might have to pick up a dictionary sometimes, but this is like this for every single language you will ever learn.

Sometimes, there's a word you don't know. Tough luck, next time you will.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:03:02 2009 No.2922297

The 1945 jouyou omits various VERY common kanji like 誰 and 俺 and 嘘. When playing VNs I keep encountering kanji that aren't even among the 3007 Heisig kanji absolutely all the time, and they never have furigana except when they're part of a name or something. Limiting yourself to the 1945 list is a very stupid idea if you ever plan to read anything longer than two sentences.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:03:02 2009 No.2922299

>>2922272
lets stop beating around the bush. if i gave you a whole story in kana, it would be one of the hardest things to read. kanji makes everything easier.
the fact is you need the kanji, and you will need to know more than the jouyou to be a functional adult in society.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:04:02 2009 No.2922305

Think about SAT vocab words. You should know them all, but I doubt more than 5% of the population does. You know what you need to get by. However, people also know words not in the SAT's vocab list.

You can draw parallels between Kanji and English that way.

You can guess at an unknown word through context - same with kanji. You can guess at the word through greek/latin/french/german roots - same with kanji (radicals and other parts). There are important words that will never be on the SAT - same with kanji.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:05:02 2009 No.2922312 >>2922297 listen to this guy. the jouyou is a nice start. but its just that. a start.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:07:02 2009 No.2922325 >you will need to know more than the jouyou to be a functional adult in society. That's a little extreme. You could at least be functional with that much.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:07:02 2009 No.2922326 >>2922296 0/10

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:10:02 2009 No.2922345 >>2922325 fine, youre right. you can live, as a 外国人, with just knowing the jouyou. but why not aim to be just as good as a native?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:11:02 2009 No.2922348 AJATT is full of crap. it forces you to learn all the kanji before learning any japanese at all. a good text book, tae kim's guide, jisho.org is all you need.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:12:02 2009 No.2922353 >>2922345 because it's a lot of work for a small payoff

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:12:02 2009 No.2922357

>>2922296
>If you know your joyo, you will have enough to read ANYTHING.
You're an idiot.

>You might have to pick up a dictionary sometimes
Sure, everyone has to pick up a dictionary sometimes, but very few people have to pick up a dictionary several times during every book they read. If you stick to learning only approved kanji, that's what you'll be doing.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:12:02 2009 No.2922358 >>2922353 its not work if you enjoy what you are reading. like VNs.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:14:02 2009 No.2922367 >>2922358 Yeah, but it's not like you'll reach the same fluency as a native if you just learn from things you enjoy.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:15:02 2009 No.2922376 >>2922348 OP is trying to learn Japanese to get away from shitty translations. Why would he want to use a method that gives him even shittier translations?

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:16:02 2009 No.2922384

>I hear you will most likely NEVER need more than 2,000 kanji. Why do people keep saying 3,000 for basic reading?

It would be more exact to say that you most likely won't need to _use_ more than 2000 kanji. The thing is that, for example, many of the 3000 Heisig kanji are stuff you very well might not need to _use_, but which are a component of some other more common kanji (there's really no correlation between to usefulness and complexity of a kanji). Therefore it's worth to also learn those less common ones, as it actually simplifies the learning of the more common ones. And of course, that you will never write a kanji yourself in any situation doesn't mean that it won't pop up in a document or something

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:16:02 2009 No.2922386 >>2922367 Maybe if you have narrow interests.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:17:02 2009 No.2922388 try going outside and making friends with the japanese international students at your university. just don't tell them you like anime.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:18:02 2009 No.2922401

>>2922367
its very possible. natives arent super humans. and the payoff is quite big, to me anyways. being able to access all kinds of japanese media is very appealing.

why would you aim so low, always for the bare minimum. even in things you should be enjoying...
just wait for translations if thats the case

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:19:02 2009 No.2922406 >>2922386 They do teach Japanese in Japan, right? And it's not like it's part of anybody's interests to read Japanese newspapers.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:20:02 2009 No.2922415 Alright, that makes more sense. Ty for that. >>2922384

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:21:02 2009 No.2922419 >>2922406 It is, actually.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:21:02 2009 No.2922424

The cancer of every "how i lern japones lol" thread. alljapaneseallthetime is new age feel-good bullshit to learning a language as scientology is to religion. Sure, some general advice from there is sensible (immerse yourself!) but then there's shit like DON'T LEARN GRAMMAR FROM A TEXTBOOK, IN FACT DONT USE A TEXTBOOK JUST MINE SENTENCES WITH UR SRS XDDDD, and horf dorf dont take jlpt, not even to gauge your competency in japanese its just bad lol xD

Yeah, you might feel like I'm going to be a true Japanese in no time with alljapaneseallthetime.com! The truth is, you're going to realize that you know jack shit when you're asked to an interview in Japanese.

Fuck I hate that site so much

It's almost as bad as people who claim to memorize 100+ kanji with heisig every day. For fuck's sake, don't ever use heisig, biggest waste of my time. Shit's so stupid, he teaches you individual kanji like THIS IS CONCAVE 凹 IT LOOKS LIKE A DITCH THATS HOW U REMEMBER IT XD AND THEN OH HERE'S PIG IRON 銑 (im flipping through it right now what the fuck am i reading) Oh and compounds? Let's take a look at the second book

OH LOOK HES PULLING COMPOUNDS OUT OF HIS DICKHOLE HERPDERP SURE IS STRUCTURED LEARNING AROUND HERE

FUCK

IM SO PISSED

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:22:02 2009 No.2922425

>>2922406
they teach japanese in grade school, high school and classes for foreigners that want to learn.
they discuss classical japanese and literature in university, if you wish to learn it.

and why wouldnt you want to read the news? are you a child?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:23:02 2009 No.2922444 >>2922424 y u mad tho

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:23:02 2009 No.2922445 >>2922425 I don't even keep up with the news in my own language. I think you're being unreasonable.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:25:02 2009 No.2922457 >>2922424 heres your textbook example of a hater. envy is an ugly beast but par for /jp/ you even contradict yourself in the first paragraph. lol.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:27:02 2009 No.2922473

A lot of you people are resorting to scaring others/trying to make yourselves look big and tough.

If you're going to limit yourself to watching anime and manga, there really is no point in learning more than the 1945 joyo kanji. If you find a character that you don't understand, you can pull out a dictionary or something and find out what it means. It's not absolutely necessary to know every single character under the sun if you're just going to be reading comics and VNs.

And even if you were going to Japan, I still don't see the reason in knowing more than the 1945 joyo kanji. Would it help to know more? Of course. But you'll be given way more opportunities over there to learn, so there's no point in stressing yourself out now and learning everything in an attempt to make sure you don't look like a foreigner. Protip: They'll be able to tell anyways, your reading comprehension won't fool them.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:27:02 2009 No.2922474 >>2922444 >>2922457 I believe that it is copypasta, so they probably won't respond

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:27:02 2009 No.2922478 >>2922445 well, generally, you want to know the current events. if you want to be a hurrdurr neet, fine, but realize your interests is in the minority. its not unreasonable for people to want to read the news.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:30:02 2009 No.2922493 >>2922478 If you're living in Japan for the long term, sure. But if you're not living in Japan, what's the point?

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:33:02 2009 No.2922505

>>2922473
Do you honestly believe that if someone wants to read manga, that they're not going to need to know 俺? Or 誰?

Nobody is trying to scare anyone off. The joyo kanji are fine if you're reading manga aimed at young children. If you want to read more advanced stuff, you'll need to know more.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:34:02 2009 No.2922514 >>2922493 It's good practice. I check the news every morning anyway, why not check it in Japanese?

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:34:02 2009 No.2922515

>>2922474
so its a lolitrolu.jpg huh

>>2922473
why do you think learning 3000+ kanji is tough? it just takes time, like all things of value.

look, you even contradict yourself in the same damn paragraph
>there really is no point in learning more than the 1945 joyo kanji.
>If you find a character that you don't understand, you can pull out a dictionary or something and find out what it means.
(which means theres a point to knowing more than the joyo)

no one said you must learn the billions of kanji right away. just 3000+ to be able to read most things without picking up a dictionary every other word. and take your time, its not a race.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:36:02 2009 No.2922523

>>2922493
>And it's not like it's part of anybody's interests to read Japanese newspapers.
the point is most people enjoy reading the news. hey the news is in japanese! do something you enjoy while learning the language and read the news in japanese!

easy huh?

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:36:02 2009 No.2922524

>>2922514
>It's good practice.
I think you lost my point somewhere along the way. The only reason we're discussing this is because some guy said you could become fluent doing only the things you enjoy, and I disagreed. Reading newspapers just for "practice" would fall within the context of studying Japanese for the sake of becoming fluent alone.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:39:02 2009 No.2922540

>>2922523
If you enjoy learning Japanese just for the sake of learning it, cool. There's no reason to keep up with Japanese news otherwise, though. Why would I read the news for a country that has nothing to do with me? I don't do it for Spain, or Italy, or France, so why should I for Japan?

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:40:02 2009 No.2922552

>>2922505
Assuming you weren't studying out of a textbook for the entire time, you would have learned the meaning and reading of those characters in due time.

>>2922515
I never said it was tough, nor did I say that it was a race to finish. I just said that if you're going to be reading manga, then there's no reason to make it longer/harder on yourself by learning characters that you won't come into contact with.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:41:02 2009 No.2922555 >>2922524 You missed my point. I enjoy checking up on the news. When I read the news in Japanese, I'm not only doing something I like, I'm also getting Japanese practice, which is a nice bonus.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:41:02 2009 No.2922562

>>2922524
>Reading VNs just for "practice" would fall within the context of studying Japanese for the sake of becoming fluent alone.

lets change that sentence to something you might enjoy, and you realize how ridiculous an argument it is. is it inconceivable that people enjoy reading the news? no.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:41:02 2009 No.2922564 >>2922540 You know they have an international section, right?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:43:02 2009 No.2922576 >>2922562 Why the fuck would I read VNs just for practice?

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:44:02 2009 No.2922586

>>2922552
>I just said that if you're going to be reading manga, then there's no reason to make it longer/harder on yourself by learning characters that you won't come into contact with.

So? My point is the jouyou is not enough to read like an adult. You will need 3000+ kanji. You can learn it along the way.
You seem to agree with me as well, that jouyou is simply not enough.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:44:02 2009 No.2922587 >>2922564 Is there any reason for me to care about their international section?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:47:02 2009 No.2922600 >>2922587 >>2922540 >Why would I read the news for a country that has nothing to do with me? Can you figure out this puzzle?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:48:02 2009 No.2922601 >>2922576 yeah, its supposed to sound ridiculous. people enjoy reading the news. >>2922540 >so why should I for Japan? because you are learning their language and because you enjoy reading the news.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:49:02 2009 No.2922611

>>2922586
Of course it's not enough. If you want to read business reports, the news paper, medical and science journals, it's clearly not even going to be remotely enough.

But when you're limiting yourself to manga (not to mention, according to the OP, manga that's clearly popular to be fan translated, which is most likely kiddie shit to begin with), then there's no point in reading like an adult if you're going to be reading stuff for children. It's like learning all the SAT words so you can read an issue of Green Lantern.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:50:02 2009 No.2922614 >>2922601 You misunderstood me. That guy said I should do it because it's good practice. Not because I enjoy reading the news.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:50:02 2009 No.2922616 >>2922587 i think by now you realize your argument is flawed. you are just picking at straws. it is very possible to be like a native, by doing things you like in japanese KHATZUMOTO BANZAI alljapaneseallthetime.com is the site folks.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:52:02 2009 No.2922631 >>2922614 I'd already said that I enjoyed the news. It's good practice on top of being fun.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:53:02 2009 No.2922640

>>2922616
>it is very possible to be like a native, by doing things you like in japanese
I think I see where the confusion is. As far as I'm concerned, why should do in Japanese what I can do in English, except to practice Japanese? There aren't enough things that I enjoy which REQUIRE Japanese for me to become fluent. Going out of my way to do something in Japanese counts as practice to me.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:55:02 2009 No.2922649 >>2922616 see >>2922424

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:55:02 2009 No.2922650

>>2922614
yeah, its good practice doing something you enjoy. if you like to know the current events, you can read the international news in japanese. is it such a hard concept?

>>2922611
>clearly popular to be fan translated, which is most likely kiddie shit to begin with
that's wrong logic. alot of things are popular enough to be fan translated. try reading evangelion knowing only the joyo. try lain or NHK. popular mangas explore alot of interesting themes.
if the OP said shounen manga, then fine. but he didnt.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:56:02 2009 No.2922654 >>2922611 And only learning joyo kanji is akin to thinking that learning the General Service List is enough to read English-language books.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:58:02 2009 No.2922663 >>2922640 Why would you learn Japanese if it's so boring to you?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:58:02 2009 No.2922664 >>2922650 But I'd enjoy it more in my native language. If I'm forcing myself to read it in a foreign language, that's work. Not that I even read the news anyway.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:59:02 2009 No.2922666

>>2922640
>why should do in Japanese what I can do in English, except to practice Japanese?
because its more fun and interesting than using a textbook to learn. which is the point...

>to me.
thats the key word.
its very possible to learn like a native, from doing things you enjoy.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 03:59:02 2009 No.2922667 >>2922663 So I can read things that aren't in English.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:01:02 2009 No.2922671 >>2922666 So you're saying that going out of your way to do something in Japanese wouldn't count as practice to you?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:01:02 2009 No.2922672 >>2922664 the point is to make it more fun to do. make the pill easier to swallow, if you will. if you enjoy textbooks more, great! if you don't want to learn the language, what are you arguing?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:01:02 2009 No.2922673 >>2922664 You may have to force yourself, but some people find reading things in another language to be fun.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:02:02 2009 No.2922680 >>2922671 its practice. but fun practice. like practicing blazblue combos or practicing golf. im also not going out of my way. my goal is to be fluent in japanese.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:02:02 2009 No.2922681 >>2922672 I'm arguing that it's be a lot of work to become fluent in Japanese regardless and most people don't really need to be fluent anyway. That's it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:04:02 2009 No.2922688 >>2922681 you are right. lets not trivialize learning a language. but it doesn't have to be a pain to do so. why not learn while doing something you enjoy?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:04:02 2009 No.2922690 >>2922680 >my goal is to be fluent in japanese. Ugh. I feel like everything I've said has gone over your head. If you're learning Japanese just for the sake of learning Japanese, none of this applies to you.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:05:02 2009 No.2922699

>>2922424

I don't think you understand the point of Heisig's books.

You build on what you've learned already so it's easier to look at new kanji and say, "oh, this has some kanji inside of it that I've seen before" and it makes it easier to memorize.

It's not to become fluent in Japanese or know pronunciations to kanji, it's just a method to help you not look and new kanji and go "WHOA WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS IT LOOKS LIKE A BUNCH OF CHICKEN SCRATCHES".

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:07:02 2009 No.2922710 >>2922699 I'd think it would be more efficient to just learn the individual pieces that make up the kanji.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:08:02 2009 No.2922713 >>2922699 You can learn the meaning of radicals yourself, though. And Heisig gives some shitty keywords.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:08:02 2009 No.2922714 >>2922690 im not learning it just for the sake of learning it. im learning it to be able to understand all the cool games/media they have. but anyways, what point are you arguing?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:09:02 2009 No.2922722 >>2922710 >>2922713 heisig is a means to an end. thats all. there are alot of roads to rome.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:09:02 2009 No.2922723 >>2922710 Radicals, right? Yeah, of course that's one thing you SHOULD do if you're learning kanji regardless. Heisig's other use is for mnemonics, which seems to work for some people, and doesn't for others (doesn't for me).

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:13:02 2009 No.2922731 >>2922714 >what point are you arguing? that most people don't need to be fluent in Japanese to do the things that they want to do in Japanese

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:14:02 2009 No.2922734 >>2922731 If they want to do them with ease, then they need to be at least near-fluent.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:15:03 2009 No.2922735 >>2922734 They'll get to be near-fluent just by doing them, though. But they won't become fluent. Unless you're some kind freak with a fetish for Japanese newspapers.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:16:03 2009 No.2922737

>>2922714
from the thread it looks like your points are

>because it's a lot of work for a small payoff
>you can not reach native fluency doing things you like

the payoff is being fluent in japanese, meaning access to an enormous amount of content.
and i think i made it clear that its very possible to reach native fluency doing things you like in japanese.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:17:03 2009 No.2922742 if heisig sucks so much what is a good book/resource to learn kanji by mnemonics or the like? there's no way i'm suffering through staring at some symbol with no means to memorize it other than burning it into my brain.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:17:03 2009 No.2922743 >>2922735 You'll become fluent just by doing them. You just have to be willing to put in the time and effort. >Unless you're some kind freak with a fetish for Japanese newspapers. I suppose I am.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:19:03 2009 No.2922748 >>2922742 Learn the radicals and come up with your own.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:19:03 2009 No.2922750

>>2922737
>the payoff is being fluent in japanese, meaning access to an enormous amount of content.
An enormous amount of content that most everybody would not be interested in.

>i think i made it clear that its very possible to reach native fluency doing things you like in japanese.
Only if you're interested in technical documents in Japanese.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:19:03 2009 No.2922751

>>2922735
>Unless you're some kind freak with a fetish for Japanese newspapers.
ok i lol'd
the newspaper thing was just an example of something people like doing.
turn that to a science fiction VN or historical game. you name it.
it also depends on your personal definition of fluent. to me, its automatically learning what a new word means just from the context. much like i do in english.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:20:03 2009 No.2922754

>>2922743
>You'll become fluent just by doing them. You just have to be willing to put in the time and effort.
You honestly think that someone can become fluent in Japanese just by reading manga, watching anime, and playing VNs? Because that is what most people here would use it for.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:22:03 2009 No.2922759 >>2922742 This dictionary will teach you the radicals, among other things: http://www.hellodamage.com/kanjidicks/main.htm

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:22:03 2009 No.2922762 >>2922754 Fluent? Yes. Native-like? No.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:24:03 2009 No.2922766

>>2922754
yeah, I do. knowing the kind of esoteric and non-conventional themes that anime/manga/VNs have.
i wouldn't be surprised. theres alot of reading in manga and VNs with examples of everyday speech, slang, dialects, technical language, proper speech, honorifics, etc.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:25:03 2009 No.2922771 >>2922759 ohh ohh yeah ty

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:25:03 2009 No.2922772 >>2922759 kanjidicks is basically heisig method PLUS pronunciation. you might find his mnemonics more entertaining than heisig though.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:26:03 2009 No.2922775 >>2922762 As far as I'm concerned, being fluent means that you can read a newspaper or an instruction manual for a household appliance. Could you reach that level of fluency just through manga/anime/VNs?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:28:03 2009 No.2922781 >>2922772 I don't know about Heisig. I thought that the problem with Heisig was that it doesn't teach the radicals, or teach kanji in an order that can take advantage of learning radicals?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:28:03 2009 No.2922782 >>2922775 id say reading some manga and VNs are harder than the newspaper/instruction manuals. seriously, they deal with some "out there" concepts sometimes.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:29:03 2009 No.2922789 >>2922782 They might use some poetic speech, but they don't often use technical or business-like speech. That's my main concern.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:30:03 2009 No.2922792 >>2922781 he teaches the standard radicals AND his own made up radicals. other parts you can find that make up more kanji. he also teaches it in an order that builds up using the previous radicals/parts.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:30:03 2009 No.2922795 >>2922775 I can read the instruction manual for cooking instant ramen. Does that count?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:32:03 2009 No.2922801 >>2922789 the ones you arent interested might not use that language. you should consider manga like a novel in the US. any subject can be in one.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:32:03 2009 No.2922803

>>2922775
I'm using the dictionary deifition of fluent:

>Able to express oneself readily and effortlessly

That be said, I do think you'll be able to read the newspaper, and quite possibly manuals. The grammar would be easy, and the words could be figured out from context.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:32:03 2009 No.2922806 >>2922792 So what's wrong with Heisig?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:34:03 2009 No.2922814 >>2922806 its different. it doesnt follow convention. the keywords he gives are ridiculous (but you can always make your own, he gives you the tools). it doesnt seem like hard work. but it works for alot of people.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:35:03 2009 No.2922819 >>2922801 >you should consider manga like a novel in the US. Wouldn't it make more sense to consider them like graphic novels? I doubt that there are manga on the same level as the Grapes of Wrath.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:35:03 2009 No.2922824 >>2922814 It's unconventional in what way?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:35:03 2009 No.2922826 >>2922806 Fake "primitives", bad mnemonics (which he only provides through half of the book), misleading keywords.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:36:03 2009 No.2922832

someone probably said it already (too lazy to read all replies) but the Heisig system is _NOT_ based on radicals, but what he calls "primitives". All radicals are primitives, but the primitives also contain much more than the radicals. This is the most important point of Heisig's method. Yes, you can learn the radicals by yourself and make up your own mnemoncis or whatever, but I'd argue that it's going to be much more work that way if you don't have a good _order_ for the kanji you're learning, such as the one Heisig presents.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:38:03 2009 No.2922841 >>2922819 in japan, all ages read manga. which is kind of like part comic/part novel in the states. as for masterful manga? maybe the akira series? lol

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:41:03 2009 No.2922851 >>2922832 It's not all that hard, and at least you don't have to waste the money/diskspace.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:41:03 2009 No.2922852

>>2922826
the fake primitives are a means to an end, just a tool

you are supposed to be making your own mnemonics. it will be easier to keep in memory if you use your own story

some keywords are misleading, but you can always change it to suit you. again its a tool to use.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:42:03 2009 No.2922858

>>2922826
What the fuck kind of a problem is "fake primitives"?

Other than that, your problem seems to be that Heisig's own implementation of the method isn't very good. I agree with that, but that doesn't really mean that the method in itself isn't good. kanji.koohii.com pretty much made up for most of Heisig's shortcomings when I was going through it.

The most common Heisig-criticism seems to something along the lines that the method isn't *perfect*. I sure would like to hear from these people which method, then, would be better.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:44:03 2009 No.2922866 >>2922851 Yea, the Heisig pdf takes 5MB of my HD space. Surely the book can't be worth it if it takes so much space.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:44:03 2009 No.2922867 >>2922852 So I'm supposed to correct the meaning of keywords (provided I realize they're wrong in the first place), make up my own mnemonics (which I can already do), and memorize a bunch of kanji parts that don't actually exist?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:44:03 2009 No.2922870 >>2922851 a pdf can save you days/months of work making your own primitives and putting it in a cohesive order. hes already done that. change the keywords if you wish. they are just a crutch you should be forgetting anyways.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:45:03 2009 No.2922876 >>2922866 It isn't worth even that much space.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:46:03 2009 No.2922879

>>2922772
I actually hated alot of kanjidicks mnemonics.

I read Heisig's kana book, and at one point he is talking about darning socks, and I though, what the hell does that even mean? He also uses stuff from the Bible occasionally, which also leaves me clueless.

http://kanji.koohii.com/
Not sure if anyone posted this already, but it is a godsend if you are using Heisig to learn kanji. I gave up around 300.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:47:03 2009 No.2922888

>>2922867
>correct the meaning of keywords (provided I realize they're wrong in the first place)

None of the keywords in the latest edition are really wrong, it's just that a few have a meaning that isn't nearly as common as some other meaning for said kanji. And I really mean just a few. The problem isn't nearly as big as you seem to make it out to be.

>make up my own mnemonics
Not necessary, see kanji.koohii.com

>memorize a bunch of kanji parts that don't actually exist
Of course they exist, they're just not officially classified as radicals. This argument completely escapes me, really. Most of the time, learning a kanji part that appears in many kanji will help you regardless of whether it is an official radical.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:48:03 2009 No.2922891

>>2922867
you arent supposed to be memorizing the keywords, it should be making a link to the japanese meaning. you should forgot the keyword and only have the kanji and meaning in mind if you do it properly.

yes, you should make your own mnemonics. that much is obvious.

the kanji parts help you remember complex kanji (divide and conquer), again a means to an end. it makes it easier, at least for me.

i doubt you put the kanji in a way that builds up using primitives. which is why heisig is so good.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:49:03 2009 No.2922897 >>2922888 you really should be using your own mnemonics, and not copying other peoples. maybe use the site for inspiration but it will be more memorable if you come up with it yourself.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:50:03 2009 No.2922899 >>2922891 >i doubt you put the kanji in a way that builds up using primitives. What?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:52:03 2009 No.2922906 >>2922899 what i mean, is, i doubt you are learning the kanji in a way that builds up from previously learned kanji/radicals.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:57:03 2009 No.2922934 >>2922888 >None of the keywords in the latest edition are really wrong I hope that's true. >Of course they exist, they're just not officially classified as radicals. They exist in Heisig's system, but they aren't actually a part of Japanese.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 04:58:03 2009 No.2922941 >>2922934 >They exist in Heisig's system, but they aren't actually a part of Japanese. And how exactly is this a problem?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 05:00:03 2009 No.2922952 >>2922941 it "seems" like a pointless thing to learn if its not in the real japanese. BUT its just a tool to help you memorize kanji. this is one part of the unconventional approach of heisig.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 05:01:03 2009 No.2922953 >>2922906 I am. I learned the meanings of the radicals and common, simple kanji. After that, it's just a matter of learning the joyo and whatever other kanji come my way.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 05:04:03 2009 No.2922972 >>2922941 Because it's a silly crutch used by lazy people.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 05:04:03 2009 No.2922980 >>2922953 So you have done essentially what Heisig did and put in his book. That's fantastic. This discussion was originally whether Heisig's method should be recommended for beginners to Japanese, not whether you can do better.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 05:06:03 2009 No.2922994 >>2922972 if the crutch works, why not use it? why make things harder on yourself? dont lose sight of the goal, fluency.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 05:09:03 2009 No.2923013 >>2922953 the point is the order in which you learn them that makes it easier to build on things you already memorized. kanjidicks and heisig has a list made for this already. its a waste of effort to do it again.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 05:09:03 2009 No.2923014 >>2922980 And if people can do it better on their own, shouldn't they be encouraged to do that, rather than follow his system?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 05:11:03 2009 No.2923018 >>2923014 you should do whatever you can to become fluent. method doesnt matter.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 05:15:03 2009 No.2923039

>>2923014
The point of Heisig, as far as I can see, is that it gives a huge advantage in your studies compared to the work you have to do in order to go through it. Comparing all the kanji by yourself and making a similar list would increase the workload significantly. The biggest problems of Heisig like certain unoptimal keywords have been adressed in kanji.koohii.com anyway, and it's much less work to look them up there as you go with Heisig.

I have no doubts that making a personal list from scratch works from some people, but I'm willing to guess that for most people it just doesn't pay off.

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 05:19:03 2009 No.2923058

>>2923013
Use Heisig or Kanjidicks if you absolutely need it. But I think it's better to find out the real meanings of the radicals and kanji, and to come up with your own stories based on those.

Besides, is memorizing 盲 using the sentence "MOMAR Kadaffi is an ignorant dictator." really easier than just remembering the radicals?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 05:23:03 2009 No.2923074 >>2923039 I suppose.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 05:23:03 2009 No.2923077 >it's better to find out the real meanings of the radicals and kanji If I'm going to need to use a dictionary anyway, I might as well use Kanjidicks, since he elaborates on nuances of meaning pretty well.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 05:27:03 2009 No.2923099 >>2923077 I don't know about nuances, but he does a good job of listing the components of a kanji.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 11 05:31:03 2009 No.2923140 >>2923099 Yeah, his definitions usually give a proper example of how the word should be used, since some of the meanings are more specific than what we would use in English.

Token !!ncUHFztPA0/ Sat Jul 11 08:20:03 2009 No.2923930

>>2922297
Who doesn't already know those characters? They are so common use that you can learn them even without practicing them. Also I have never seen 嘘　in anything but kana. No point in writing a 10+ stroke kanji for something with only 2 kana. You guys have yet to show any good examples as to why you need more than the jouyou combined with everyday learning. The shorter someone thinks learning kanji is, the less likely they are to be discouraged by it. OP can read manga with the jouyou, only reaching for a dictionary rarely or he can skip the dictionary and decipher the meaning through context like any normal person would. Sure learning 5k kanji will eliminate the need for a dictionary, but its unnecessary. Most of the non jouyou that are still used are so common use that only a fool wouldn't alredy know them. Also the jouyou is being revised to include such characters IIRC

Anonymous Sat Jul 11 11:41:03 2009 No.2924580

>>2923930
>Also I have never seen 嘘　in anything but kana. No point in writing a 10+ stroke kanji for something with only 2 kana.
i see it plenty of times in just songs and horror games. also, you seem to think the more strokes a kanji has the harder it is.

>The shorter someone thinks learning kanji is, the less likely they are to be discouraged by it.

maybe if they give up easily or had no real desire to learn.

>OP can START reading LIMITED manga with the jouyou, only reaching for a dictionary every other four words or he can skip the dictionary (that's just bad advice) and rarely decipher the meaning through context like any normal person would.

fix'd that for you
look, you don't need to study 3000+ before you start enjoying japanese. what im saying is you will probably know 3000+ by the time you become literate.

>Most of the non jouyou that are still used are so common use that only a fool wouldn't alredy know them.

you agree that jouyou is not enough. which is what we are saying.

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