Touhou Retirement

[Anonymous No.]

I realize we're a month out from a new game, but that being said...

Has Touhou become too big? All of the best and memorable characters are typically from earlier entries of the series. Sure, there's exceptions, but not many. The last two games have been mediocre at best in every aspect, and Touhou's peak was like, 10 games ago? Not saying there haven't been good games since then, but the average quality has declined significantly. I'm also bothered by ZUN keeps introducing new characters. Not counting Marisa(or PoFV or the fighting games, those shouldn't count for obvious reasons), we've only seen one enemy character return as an enemy in a future game, Yuyuko. It's like the pokemon curse. Ironically I'm glad that none of the playable protagonists have been recent characters because they've been so mediocre and forgettable. The only thing that's improved has been maybe the music.

I'm not sure I'm even excited for the new game. Touhou has grown so big that it feels like it's trying to support a tree of mediocrity on high quality roots that were developed 10 years ago. Maybe ZUN should move on to something else?

Post your thoughts.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34357180
Yeah. I mean, when you look at the newest fanarts and fanfics, you rarely see anyone introduced after UFO. And for a good reason – characters after Nue started to become progressively more bland and forgettable. And as much as I am fascinated by Taoism, taoists from TD are bland and uninteresting.

So yeah, ZUN intoduces more and more characters that nobody will care a year after a game comes out. Kinda like Pokemon.

[Anonymous No.]

Oversaturation is inevitable.
Reusing old characters like Yuyuko in TD is unlikely in Touhou

[Anonymous No.]

>>34357180
Retire touhou? No. Start drawing memeable character artwork again, yes

[Anonymous No.]

it's all good and still good as it ever was and you're all faggots

[Anonymous No.]

>>34357180
The reason you're disappointed is not because the newer characters are any worse than the old ones, they're actually just as good. Almost all Touhou characters are just a way to carry the game's story forward. Few of them are multidimensional when their game comes out. They only start to get "interesting" for you once later works start featuring them and once the fanbase starts doing things with them. I fully believe ZUN will incorporate characters from LoLK-WBaWC in later sidegames and manga. What we really need is to get artists to start using the new characters - as long as they don't, new characters will seem less interesting, and because they seem less interesting, less people make things that feature them. It's a vicious cycle.
Personally, I think waifu culture is what's holding us back. Most people seem to think they should just find one character they like and only care about them, and since there's so many to choose from already (and Touhou's been around for a while), new characters end up getting shafted.
tl;dr: make new-game OC onegai

[Anonymous No.]

Zun definitely should use old (and recent) characters more.
Seeing Cirno getting different roles from midboss to protagonist over the years is pretty cool. She's basically 3rd main character at this point.
Yuyuko's and Kogasa's appearance in TD were quite good and fitting.
The way IN squeezed 8 characters into 4 teams and then reusing 2 of them as bosses was great.
>Ironically I'm glad that none of the playable protagonists have been recent characters because they've been so mediocre and forgettable
I'd be happy if Zun reintroduced any of previous 2hus as playable characters, new shot types and new flavors of banter is always a good thing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34358125
>Seeing Cirno getting different roles from midboss to protagonist over the years is pretty cool
It really isn't though. The Cirno character is superficial and uninteresting, she didn't deserve to be featured that much but hey fanservice.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34357650
>new characters end up getting shafted
Bruh...

[Anonymous No.]

I liked the aesthetic of Subterranean Animism and Ten Desires. Godtier music and nice visuals. I hope ZUN makes more games like those

[Anonymous No.]

zun should stop making modern-themed works with shitty political allegories and societal commentary.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34358168
No seriously, why should anyone actually give a shit about Mima
Can you even tell me anything interesting and canonical about this character other than her design?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34358232
>zun should stop expressing himself through his work
>zun should stop doing what he loves because i'm really just here to cum at his characters
>zun should
Shut your whore mouth and never speak again.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34358248
literally nothing, it's like people who want Geno in Smash, it's just for the meme

[Anonymous No.]

>>34358156
>she didn't deserve to be featured that much
Why not? Seeing a character in all roles (boss, protag, spinoff gimmick) is generally great because you can experience all flavors of their gameplay.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34358485
The GFW freezing mechanic was nice, I'll give you that. Aside from that, Cirno as a boss and as a shottype is not really exciting, no. You're lying to yourself if you think the reason she's been featured so much is anything but fanservice.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34358266
stop pretending a middle aged japanese man is a god who can't be defied, you fucking loser. would you jump down someone's throat to defend george lucas if they said the star wars prequels sucked?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34358587
>if they said the star wars prequels sucked?
They did though.

[Anonymous No.]

>Bruh...
For shame.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34358607
NOOOOO HE WAS EXPRESSING HIMSELF STOOOP YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO SAY MEAN THINGS ABOUT SOMETHING GEORGE-SAMA CREATED!

[Anonymous No.]

>>34358587
>is a god who can't be defied
Please quote the part of my message where I imply this.

[Anonymous No.]

ZUN makes games for himself. The reasons the early ones are enjoyable is a result of that. Leave him be and maybe he'll drift back into a direction more in line with your interests.

The old games are replayable as hell and the music is still top notch. I'm just glad the franchise hasn't sold out or been derailed horribly.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34358509
I don't care what the reason is, I just want to see characters make appearance in more than one game and preferably in different roles. Any character would work if Zun really wants.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34358587
>god who can't be defied
what is that even supposed to mean?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34358587
Prequels were great, George did nothing wrong (besides butchering OT).

[Anonymous No.]

>>34358639
the part where you think that zun is above critique and people shouldn't be allowed to criticize anything he makes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34358195
We're getting a revisit to the SA aesthetics in dankest darkest moistest scroller game.
After seeing the Kanako trailer I have some hope for it, even if the gameplay ends up mediocre.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34358736
You might've misclicked then, I don't think that's anywhere in my post.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34358889
no, i'll directly quote you.
>I pretend to be an autistic retard who takes everything completely literally because I'm incapable of actually defending my opinions.
from your post, >>34358266

[Anonymous No.]

>>34358948
"who are you quoting"
Yeah that shit is annoying but I genuinely don't understand how you equate letting an artist express themself through their work without catering for retards to saying they can't be criticized.

[Anonymous No.]

I’m trying to 1cc each game in order, preferably with more than one shot type, and the only thing my disinterest comes from is the sheer number of games. I’m only on SA and each game seems remarkably replayable. The reason I’m only up to SA after years of playing is because I used to just get into touhou a few times a year, and I’d always just go back and play EoSD/PCB/IN since they form a a sort of trilogy and then I’d feel satisfied. I didn’t need more than those three.

SA with its high difficulty and SIX unique shot types could last me a very long time were I to play it thoroughly instead of just moving on to the next one.

There are already enough touhou games to last me a lifetime. But there’s still a new one nearly every year. I don’t know how people keep up with it unless they barely or dont play the actual games, or are so good at bullet hells they can just tear through them.

I dont mind a massive cast, it’s part of the fun. And even after all these years, a lot of main characters remain quite enigmatic. Most of touhou’s world and character interactions were always meant to be in the player’s imagination, with the games just being a tiny, tiny dripfeed of info.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34359577
>But there’s still a new one nearly every year. I don’t know how people keep up with it unless they barely or dont play the actual games, or are so good at bullet hells they can just tear through them.
There's a new game every two years, so it's not that bad if you can get through all of them in a year flat.
I'm not sure how many others do this, but I play the release and then I go back to playing whatever I feel at the moment.
I haven't touched the fighters since M.U.G.E.N. has just about all of them, not to mention that there are different versions of each character as well. So long as it's balanced, it's fun.
I imagine there are a select few games people play nonstop if they don't play each of the games frequently. It's easier to focus on one rather than many.
Also, speaking of fun- anyone who picked up the first version of UM is probably going to have a field day abusing the game with card duping. Even if it's demo exclusive.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34359669
>I haven't touched the fighters since M.U.G.E.N. has just about all of them,
I haven't touched them recently*

[Anonymous No.]

>>34359577
>I’m trying to 1cc each game in order
Why?
Anyways, you don't HAVE to "keep up" with games. I've beaten most games on Luna and all on Hard but I spent years and years simply to get to Normal 1cc level. Just spending time having fun with the games is good. If "keeping up" means being absolutely done with everything that Touhou can offer you and being done playing, then to hell with it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34359669
>I haven't touched the fighters since M.U.G.E.N. has just about all of them, not to mention that there are different versions of each character as well. So long as it's balanced, it's fun.
should check out the gensokyo reloaded fullgame, it's pretty solid stuff

[Anonymous No.]

>>34361104
>should check out the gensokyo reloaded fullgame, it's pretty solid stuff
I'll keep it in mind. Thanks for telling me about it dude.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34357180
>>34357458
Earlier characters are more popular because they've been around longer and have more content on the internet. that fan content alone is often enough to create new fans who in turn make more fan content of said characters. do you really think momiji is more interesting than okina? popularity doesnt always corelate with quality.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34362258
>do you really think momiji is more interesting than okina?
Yes because Momiji has cool design while Okina looks like Junko reskin.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34364042
so you're just into the characters for how they look then? that's purely subjective.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34359940
>Why?
Besides my favorite three that I’d regularly return to, I’d jump around between games a bit just to see what they were like, but didn’t stick with one long enough to REALLY get to know it.

Restricting myself to focus on one game til I 1cc it (as long as I like it, wont play it if I dont) lets me gradually get to know the game more and more, and I develop an appreciation for it. Like I used to not care about MoF, but after 1ccing it with all the shot types I have a very high opinion of it.

Same thing is happening with SA now. By stopping myself from just jumping around the whole series, I’m really taking the time to get to know the music and patterns of this game. It could end up being one of my favorites.

As for why I’m doing them in order, why not? I’ll just skip any I really dont like PoFV

>If "keeping up" means being absolutely done with everything that Touhou can offer you and being done playing, then to hell with it.
Absolutely not. I’ve got my favorites that I’m gonna play forever and gradually get better at. The others that I like I’ll return to occasionally. I’m not trying to ‘finish’ touhou or anything. It’s just that it’s hard to get excited about a new game when there’s like eight other games that may as well be new to me.

I still go back and play a game I’ve cleared on occasion after a play session with SA.

I know it’s not something I HAVE to do, and I hate it when people treat games or books or shows or whatever as some sort of obligation. I’ve just come to realize this is how I get the most fun out of the series.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34362258
Pretty much this. Also, most 2hu fans are secondaries.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34357180
What a garbage doomposting thread. If you've lost interest in the series then move on to something else and pray that your attention span can keep you entertained with it long enough. I haven't so I'm going to continue enjoying Touhou for as long as I'm alive.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34358248
mentor of the second MC
vengeful spirit
play the pc98 games you fucking tertiary

[Anonymous No.]

>>34358430
go back to /v/

[Anonymous No.]

Zun's problem is thinking 2hu is a videogame series and not an internet community loosely based on the characters from the videogames.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34362258
>Earlier characters are more popular because they've been around longer and have more content on the internet.
And the newer characters have been create during a time where the internet is bigger than ever and the output of content creation is hundred of times bigger than what it used to be 10 or 20 years ago. That is plenty to even the match-up and yet they still cannot compare. They lack something that touches people heart despite the audience being bigger than ever before.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34365732
Your problem is being a secondary shitter.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34364251
>skipping PoFV
PoFV is one of ZUN's best work writing-wise but I guess you'll never know why.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34365788
Yes, and what they lack is called content. Also, the waifu effect. See >>34357650

[Anonymous No.]

>>34362258
OP here. I couldn't care less about Momiji.

But the same applies to Okina. Here's my problem; she got introduced in a big way only to do nothing. Her story in the game was completely inconclusive and the endings just sucked. All the new characters as well as the game stories feel like anime filler episodes. They don't feel like they contribute to the overall universe, nor do they feel like they can stand on their own. EoSD could stand on it's own even if it's characters didn't appear in future entries because the endings were charming and the story had meaning(scarlet mist, never ending winter to revive dead girl, moon incident); same with PCB and IN. What was the point of HSIFS? "Haha the weather is out of control because I want people to pay attention to me?" Then nothing. Literally nothing.

Characters like Momiji don't count because they're secondary characters and if anything bringing them up significantly weakens your argument in my eyes because only secondaries care about those kinds of characters.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34368404
And that's bullshit.
You can count with one hand the amount of times SDM has been featured and appeared more afterwards and yet they're still at the top.
Even with having the advantage of the modern age, flavor of the month new game push, a wider and ever skilled audience than ever they cannot manage to keep up and become mainstays. The newer characters simply lack charm.

[Anonymous No.]

when the SDMs were around there were only six of them so each of them got 1/6th of your attention

but now there are around 200 touhous so each new one only gets 1/200th of your attention

[Anonymous No.]

>>34371869
Oh man I had no idea the new games had 200 characters on them!

[Anonymous No.]

>>34371878
sure, while you're actively playing the game, but after you're done playing the game and thinking about touhou in general they have to share the same shelf with all the others

[Anonymous No.]

I think a major thing with fandom response is character relationships.

Hong, Koakuma, Patchy, Sakuya, Remilia, Flandre, that’s six characters living together who each have their own standing in a hierarchy, traits, and relationships with one another. Then add Marisa who is always visiting the library, and maybe Cirno since she lives right next door and it’s easy to just put her there without needing any real reason. Reimu is often shown visiting in doujin works, and I think she’s on better terms with the SDM than she is with most other factions, so it’s easy to imagine her just coming over for tea.

Patchy’s experiments, Remi’s ridiculous whims, Hong trying to guard, Sakuya trying to maintain order while also following Remi’s orders, Marisa/Cirno/Flandre each causing their own kind of havoc, it all just lends itself very well towards stories.

The PCB characters with the biggest responses were Yukari (relations to Reimu, Yuyuko, Ran and sort of Chen), Yuyuko and Youmu (dynamics with each other and Yukari) and Alice, who doesnt have that much with Marisa in-game actually (is she in a Marisa ending I missed?)Nearly all stories involving these characters are dependent on how many relationships they have and on who is close by.

I could list each game but you get my point. Tewi causes trouble at Eientei on occasion, and that’s about the extent of obvious set ups for stories. Maybe someone visits to buy medicine from Eirin, but that’s not too exciting.

The Moriya shrine trio are easy to put together for obvious reasons. Aya can get stories cause she’s always traveling and interacting with everyone.

Satori and her pets are in hell but there’s not a sense of that much going on with them as a group. Satori wants to lay about and her pets can do their own thing. The only trouble starter might be Koishi acting without thinking, and that’s what fans pick up on.

The buddhist group are a big team and kind of an anomaly in this theory of mine. I’d think they’d have far more works.

Banki and Kagerou and Wakasaki dont relate at all in-game but are grouped because people like having groups, and the grassroots network left enough room in people’s imagination to group these losers up.

The Taoists are a group but dont care about each other much, you need that corny wholesome angle for people to pick up on a group, I think. Or at least room for people to act like the could care about each other, like with the idiot trio above.

Hec Junk and Clown have that ‘family’ angle people like.

Individual characters arent enough, they have to come packaged with exciting dynamics that spur the imagination like the SDM group do. No other faction even comes close to them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34373874
>I could list each game but you get my point. Tewi causes trouble at Eientei on occasion, and that’s about the extent of obvious set ups for stories. Maybe someone visits to buy medicine from Eirin, but that’s not too exciting.
Like an idiot I forgot about Mokou. She has stuff going on with Kaguya and Keine. And again, that’s what the fandom picks up on and what nearly all her stories are about.

[Anonymous No.]

we need a full length live action movie

[Anonymous No.]

>>34371046
>if anything bringing them up significantly weakens your argument in my eyes because only secondaries care about those kinds of characters.
I kinda take a bit of issue about that given how popular Dai and Koa are with non-secondary fans. Momiji just has that going for her is all, plus people like finding ways of pairing her with Aya for better or worse.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34361145
no problemo
you can even take it online with buddies who have it downloaded thanks to ikemen portforwarding

make sure you have a remapper like joy2key or something of that level (or read up on ikemen remapping yourself) since ikemen is still caveman levels of dealing with that shit

[Anonymous No.]

>>34374681
Dai and Koa are (fanonically) cute and demure and have no personality, an archetype that was missing from early Touhou.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34373899
>>34373874
Good post, anon.
Fanon doesn't come out of nowhere. You gave to give something for autists to latch on in the first place.

[Anonymous No.]

>live action

[Anonymous No.]

>>34364368
>secondary fags complaining about the games they dont even play

[Anonymous No.]

>>34374881
Who are you quoting?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34357180
Apologies for retarded question, but I ordered these from ebay. Oddly, the package came with a weird green packet that seemed to be some kind of drink condiment. Anyone know what the fuck that is and why the fuck I received it?

[Anonymous No.]

>>34375034
I have no idea.

[Anonymous No.]

https://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm37014997

[Anonymous No.]

>>34375034
The Japanese have a common practice of including omake with ebay purchases, which are usually something small and random.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34374681
I guess I personally don't like Koa or Dai that much, especially since they don't even have real names, but if you're saying they're popular with primaries, I won't argue. To be fair, both of those characters are part of a great game with a great cast, though, so in a sense osmosis may be taking effect.

...but anyway, I was hoping to get more discussion about the games, but everyone is just talking about the characters. I guess the majority of "touhou fans" are really just secondaries, even here.

[Anonymous No.]

Reminder that this a falseflag thread made by holonigger hands.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34371046
What about Mamizou?
She has a fantastic design, keeps getting reinvented, and has as much screen time as Aya or Yukari.
Yet she has only a fraction of the fanart that midboss characters do. We're coming up on her tenth anniversary and TD can't match the momentum of EoSD.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34375239
Then stop replying to it.
It is not dead now and it will not be dead anytime soon no matter how much they scream about it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34371835
What >>34368404 is saying is completely true though. Whenever ZUN releases a new Touhou game there is also a sale spike for old copie of EOSD due to newbies interested who wanna check the series out from the "first" game.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34375239
the great reclinement has been a meme for like five years

[Anonymous No.]

>>34375687
not true
people go bonkers for lunatic kingdom

[Anonymous No.]

>>34375704
read slower.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34375687
more like eight years

[Anonymous No.]

>>34375650
>Newfags
>Ever starting by the first one
Next you'll tell me that Fate newfags all read the VN.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34364152
Quality definitely lies within character design too you retard. Blowing off that whole part of characters in any anime medium as purely subjective and not giving a shit is super fucking dumb jfc

[Anonymous No.]

>>34376509
It's literally true though. Using unrelated examples doesn't change that yes, whenever a new Touhou game releases, old copies of EOSD have a spike in circulation, look it up.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34373874
While your post about character dynamics is mostly true, I strongly disagree with your assessment of the taoist gang. I think they as a group are one of the stronger "modern" touhou groups released, maybe the strongest. Great dynamics and potentials, and the characters are all very strong, with Futo and Seiga being the stand outs in my opinion. Seiga I think in particular is one of the most unique touhou character's we've had, and is decently popular enough. Part of this I feel is thanks to her versatility, as there are many ways to interpret her character in a manner that still feels faithful enough. You can make her a sinister and truly evil character, a more team rocket-esque playfully teasing and mischievous lady, or just go full teasing necrophilia lady. This type of freedom really helps with a character.

>>34368404
>>34357650
Blaming "the waifu effect" is an absolutely terrible take. There are many people who become infatuated with a single character and focus their creations on just them, but going "I wish they wouldn't do that" wouldn't mean that they'd start making content for every touhou. They'd just not make content. Waifu effect inspires content, it doesn't sap content. Waifu effect is very positive, and you should instead focus on making and showing new characters in a way that will inspire said effect in people for them.

>>34375311
Easy, Mamizou is an old hag character. Old hag characters will never ever reach the popularity of non-hag characters. Even the popular hags aren't even close to non-hag characters.

[Anonymous No.]

We don't even know anything about the characters in Unconnected Marketeers yet, so they haven't been given the same lore as previous characters yet. It's hard to develop a character when you don't know anything about them, right? I bet pepple felt the same way after Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom and every game that came after that, but to be fair the characters grew on them after some time. They have deep lore, a significance in the story and in Gensokyo, an occupation or some sort of group that they're associated with. We know aproximately where they live, who their friends are, their likes and dislikes, what they day to day life looks like. That kind of thing. Just give it a time and we'll see how it goes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34357180
I feel like the character themes got worse and became more samey.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34373874
>Alice, who doesnt have that much with Marisa in-game actually (is she in a Marisa ending I missed?)
Pretty sure the heavy shipping with those two started after they got paired up in IN. Same with Yukari and Reimu.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34373874
That's a great point, EoSD is definitely the strongest in this regard. Also, EoSD has a strong sense of location. It's one thing to just encounter a gang of 2hus in some random hills and mountains on your way to the final boss, but when they inhabit or visit a particular place for particular reason it makes the whole thing way more immersive and less abstract.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34375311
She's an ugly ass beaver with stupid glasses who has nothing to do with her own game.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34376772
Fair point about the Taoists, I haven't looked for much stuff of them myself but there is actually a decent amount out there. I also agree about Seiga, she's my favorite of the group. Good point about versatility, that's a major one. A lot of touhou characters can be lent to grimsokyo or cutesokyo but seiga has a lot more going on that just those two generalized takes.

I think it also helps she has the most history with all the characters there. She's the one who made them all immortal after all, usually not with permission, which adds an interesting angle to things.

>>34379157
>a strong sense of location
That's a really good point. Like I said, Cirno is basically their next door neighbor.

Part of that might have to do with the plot, in EoSD the protag is aiming for the SDM right from the start. That's actually abnormal compared to their usual tactic of attacking randomly until they find a lead.

SA, TD and especially MoF also have a strong sense of placement, and in all of those the protag also knew where to go from the start (or after level 1, in TD's case).

UFO and TD kind of get a boost in this regard by piggybacking off of MoF and inserting themselves into that setting. It's actually kind of weird just how much of the cast lives on that mountain but never interact in fan works. Without preexisting relationships it becomes hard to make that work I guess.

[Anonymous No.]

>>34379220
you take that back