/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[Anonymous No.]

Why is Alice so weak to hypnosis?

[Anonymous No.]

I'm all for it, but why is it always Alice?

[Anonymous No.]

>>37240215
>>37243243
What do you think 'going through the rabbit hole' and Alice in Wonderland is a metaphor for?

[Anonymous No.]

>>37243243
Because making the puppeteer into a puppet is ironic

[Anonymous No.]

>>37243494
Retarded take. Alice doesn't even control people. It's this >>37243335 but with the reverse meaning

[Anonymous No.]

>>37243335
The shame and regret of trying anal?

[Anonymous No.]

>>37240215
hypnosis is retarded

[Anonymous No.]

why is a majority of non-yuri touhou eromanga complete garbage
always hypnoshit, bbm, drugs, blackmail and rape
the sheer contrast to the creativity present in SFW doujin is mindboggling

[Anonymous No.]

>>37243555
Shnghai is a person and I am tired of pretending she isn't.

[Anonymous No.]

>>37243929
Yeah, what's the point of having sex with Alice is she isn't crying, struggling and begging you to stop?

>>37243969
>rape
But rape is the best.

[Anonymous No.]

>>37243969
I don't think hypnosis is as bad as the others because it doesn't actually exist in reality. It's still stupid though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>37243969
Most japs have shit taste in porn(and in general)

[Anonymous No.]

>>37243494
I think that's basically it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>37244046
I never felt like it made much sense to do it. Just make the girl a horny slut from the get go.

[Anonymous No.]

>>37244140
That's less fun.

[Anonymous No.]

>>37244140
It's probably about the control aspect. Either that or the artists secretly imagine themselves as the 2hu getting hypnotized.
I personally don't mind singlular hypnosis images like >>37244077, but actual full hypnosis stories invariably erase the characters' identity, so they're stupid.

[Anonymous No.]

>>37244166
Preach. Mind break a shit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>37244066
largest consumers are gooks and chinks though (followed by japs, followed by the spanish)

[Anonymous No.]

>>37244140
Hypnosis is about unearthing the hidden, the repressed, unacceptable aspects of the self, the shadow. It feels retarded because instead of coming to terms with her own archetypical desires and aspects and integrating them, as would be the healthy resolution exploring the subconscious, she becomes one with them, which indeed DELETES the old personality. Instead of getting her tsundere mask off and accepting that she has a desire of Belonging, of connecting with others despite being somewhat secluded (that's the reason she puts puppet shows in the village and she helps people often) engaging that desire in a healthy way, she ends up as a cock obsessed retard uniquely connecting with others through mindless enjoyment of her sexual lust, not sublimating her desires. And it feels pretty stupid because you can picture some crack whore ending like that, but not one of our idealized touhous.

The ones who want her hypnotized but not mind broken want to take advantage of that libido to be able to have sex for once, and are on a middle ground between that and appreciating her actual character. Kedamono Kangoku, chinchintei, rindou, and those artists that usually draw hypnosis usually also have decapitation art, annilingus, humilliation or worse stuff than 'death' of the original personality. Even furui has tentacles stuff. As an armchair analysis, without knowing them, I can only venture that either they are aware of archetypes too and fully embrace them (rare but who knows), or they don't give a fuck about the touhous beyond them being sex-lust-violence receptacles on which to exert power plays.

You can deny it, but the popularity of those doujins over vanilla ones just shows that most people into doujins actually have those desires, even though due to a repressive and controlled society and their weakness they obviously won't even come close to acting on them. Ask yourself, which ones do get uploaded and are trending at all times?

>>37244046
Hypnosis is an actual thing and one of the most proved ways of hypnosis is self-suggestion. One of the ways to conditionate yourself and facilitate engaging the subconscious (which usually gets dumbed down to 'being possessed' or 'brainwashed') can be as dumb as putting a piece of clothing on, like a thinking hat to become more objective, feminine/masculine clothes to connect with the masculine/feminine side, or would you look at that, earrings. >>37244143

TL;DR: it's japanese porn barely taking 20-40 pages so you get sexual desires being unveiled in a retarded, dramatic and sudden way. Just like in shows and movies about dystopias (external desire for utopian safety) you get the desire for freedom and transgression being unveiled

[Anonymous No.]

>>37244824
>gooks and chinks followed by japs, followed by the spanish
The most repressive societies, feminist and feminized, and with the most fucked natality rates. Sexual desire always needs a way out

[Anonymous No.]

>>37243979
Shanghai is an onahole you mean

[Anonymous No.]

>>37240215
Wasn't there a game with that premise? Can't remember if it was a flash game or not.

[Anonymous No.]

>>37246317
Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but it basically plays like that, with a coin and a rhythm minigame.

https://www.dlsite.com/maniax/work/=/product_id/RJ321037.html

[Anonymous No.]

>>37244143
Aside from the one or two panels of some dude swinging a 5 yen coin in front of the girl's face, what's the difference?
I like hypnotism when it wears off at one point, but if it doesn't, it wouldn't make much difference if it wasn't there.

[Anonymous No.]

the only good hypno is fake hypno, which is excellent

[Anonymous No.]

>>37247674
What about reverse hypno where it turns out the girl hypnotized the guy into thinking he hypnotized the girl?

[Anonymous No.]

>>37247712
slightly worse since it's vaguely emasculating

[Anonymous No.]

>>37244925
Only Kedamono does guro
>worse stuff than 'death' of the original personality
I do not really believe there is anything worse than the sexual incontinence that would make a man fashion another being into his personal slave, into something less than an object, a glorified extension of his own masturbatory hand. That they are fictional hardly much changes the issue, the point is precisely that such a drastic change could only be feasibly enacted by someone with an extreme amount of power in the real world (and I imagine such people do engage in activities of that sort), or, without any such power, through a clearly exaggerated fictional representation of a personal fantasy. Who can stop you when you are the creator, jury, judge, executioner and restorer of everything? Hypnosis without mind break is hardly even a real phenomenon, hypnosis as you say is auto-suggestion but there is not one single doujin out there that would bother to make a setup that seems even vaguely close to an actual hypnosis session because they need to be expedient with their page count, getting to the action as quickly as possible once the window dressing is over and done with. It is absolutely just a convenient device with which the author sanctions (for whom is it sanctioned? himself, his audience? both? the fictional character? self-sanctioned self sanctioning?) the revelry to follow, no matter how they think to dress it up the primary elements will always be the same, what can't be devoured will be violated, what can't be violated will be destroyed and then violated.

[Anonymous No.]

>>37240215
I came here to enlighten you: alice actually pretends to be, because she feels lonely. but >>37244925 already provided. thanks, Freud.

[Anonymous No.]

>>37245011
Do not make lewd remarks about Shangahi

[Anonymous No.]

>>37247568
The difference is that mind control is hot.

[Anonymous No.]

>>37244925
great text anon, i wish there was more hypnotism doujins where we hold Alice's hand in a dark corner

[Anonymous No.]

The point is that the girls could kill a human in mere seconds if they wanted to, and they tend to see humans as lesser beings only good to do their bidding. The hypnosis asspull allows to reverse this relationship, giving a feeling of conquest, and letting the human exact revenge in various ways.
I'd argue it's even more cathartic in the case of 2hus if you're a primary, since you personally have memories of being bullied by the girls for hours on end.

>>37244210
Agreed, mindbreak is boring, 常識改変 is the way to go. A shame things aren't better tagged, be it in booru or panda.

[Anonymous No.]

>>37248417
>the author sanctions the revelry to follow
Many of the works indulging on hypnosis do feel like this to me. Even the dialogue hints at it VERY explicitly sometimes. A way of punishing the reader as well, who just as the hypnotized character does, discards their ego, their unique personality and possibilities and just embraces the pleasure. There's a sense of 'giving up' when the personality is erased, of not being able to come back to what they once were, and since they feel they can't belong anywhere or search for deep intimacy anymore, the soul 'dies' and they end up as toys.

Even when the personality doesn't die, there's a sense that something important was lost; I think body modification comes to represent all of that. The girl loses part, or all of her soul potential. One doujin I particularly dislike shows that partial damage and it still stings; the repercussions are that the girl's new body, which becomes more like the deity of Hathor (fertility, motherhood, cow archetype), interferes with her daily life, duties, and the training that would have eventually allowed her to reach mastery and power, becoming her 'own Master'. And it's because of flippantly giving on to her own weakness, because she trusted others guidance blindly instead of struggling with her own inner doubts herself, which is something that completely goes against that touhou character real personality.

>what can't be devoured will be violated, what can't be violated will be destroyed and then violated
Yeah, to make them fall they have to play on that shadow element of their personality, that's the key. The characters are well balanced in canon. Alice is secluded because despite wanting to help others she doesn't fully trust the 'urban'. She's well guarded and has her natural defenses. The other doujin I mentioned works in the same manner. The author just 'destroys', or pretends those ego defenses aren't there in the first place, and that's how they degrade them and impose their lust/violate them.

>worse stuff than 'death' of the original personality
With this I meant explicitly tentacles, as I've mentioned with furui. I've been struggling with what they represented for a while, but just today I've come to finally understand it. Tentacles are the result of the shadow element of the second enneagram of personality. What should be selfless love, ends up as a completely selfish 'love' in which the tentacles represent the wish to give a greater pleasure than anyone else, to take care of the girl's every need and make her fully indebted. In exchange, the girl belongs only to the tentacles, and in some cases, if they don't establish a mutual codependent relationship in which they exchange nutrients or nutrients to produce offspring, she ends up vored and completely consumed instead. Honestly you might be right. At that point death might be a kind of mercy, even when compared with the hypnosis and sex toy ending.
>>37248623
I remember some anon in a thread a couple months ago analyzing some aspects of hypnosis and forced intrusive thoughts, was that you?

[Anonymous No.]

>>37257648
giving in to*. I don't know, they do feel like 'cautionary tales'. That's the best you can take from them even while hating them

[Anonymous No.]

>>37257648
>>37257706
>the soul 'dies' and they end up as toys.
>The girl loses part, or all of her soul potential
Certainly it is a common thing to claim or state or insist that certain actions and sufficient perversity effectively destroy someone's very spirit, soul, personality and everything other than their physical being. I for my part am not entirely sure if that's how it is, rather it seems to me more like a purposeful and absolute subordination of the soul to someone else's will or desire. This is implicitly sanctioned to the author via the girls submitting through hypnosis or mind break (notice how this is still just roundabout self-assurance for the author/protagonist), and then they begin an elaborate feeding process. On one hand yes, if they're used exclusively to fulfil sexual urges, that's a physical trait, it's one person using the body of another to sate himself physically and to delude himself into thinking this ecstasy constitutes spiritual/non-physical fulfilment. On the other, because the whole of them is subordinated and enslaved, would it not be possible to say that the person responsible for what-have-you is, in a highly crude manner, gorging on their soul and essence? Not that the soul dies, but that it is blinded and forced into stagnation with an outside power pressing down on top of it, and all its potential is siphoned into them in some way. Preying on weaknesses is also involved, but in more than a few circumstances the fantasy seems to involve a chain of absolute binding. That is to say, not only is there often no weakness at all (because calling someone weak to suggestion if they fall for hypnosis is fallacious in this context when hypnosis takes on the character of a magical and functionally omnipotent ability, which is able to do whatever the author needs), but any strength and trait is also flipped on its head and made subordinate, everything is for the will of the devouring enjoyer, all the pride and cockiness prior to the event, and all the resistance or anguish before the end of it, are there exclusively to make the final result even more delectable. I say this with no little hesitation, as extended frivolous use of certain terms has devalued them on the internet, and I am not fully convinced (internally or otherwise) of what can be specifically associated with my descriptions, yet this entire tapestry of self-serving madness strikes me as very, genuinely, Demiurgic.

I understand that I'm painting with broad strokes, you could feasibly insist that by this same logic you could very well be condemning all fictional or artistic work. Sure, it's possible, that might be the conclusion you come to if you push this line of thinking far enough, I even believe that I've seen someone who has done something resembling this. Overall, yes, they are cautionary tales to us who may find them uncouth or whatever other disparaging epithet you would want to attach to them. On my end I cannot say it is particularly offensive, and there are worse ills in the world. I am only willing to say I particularly dislike one guy and that dislike is half personally overblown meme, half sincere.

[Anonymous No.]

I think you might be overthinking this a little.

>>37254760
Ehhh. Mind break is bad, but common sense manipulation is boring. Nothing really happens. Mind break can at least have a good buildup, get that struggle to survive.
Now body control, that's the real good shit. Get all the control and degradation of mind control without any of the mental snuff. It extends her struggle and resistance throughout the whole story, and that's far and away the best part.

[Anonymous No.]

>>37257648
>>37260417
Do you two have any recommended reading or literature on this topic?

[Anonymous No.]

>>37263274
I am the second post quoted. The other anon is basing his observations on Jungian archetypes and his concept of the shadow, which I am not extensively familiar with. For my part it's a combination of various factors, overexposure to pornography that gave me conflicting feelings that progressively got stronger and made me highly suspicious of taking anything at all at face value, thinking over and connecting a few misc. ideas I saw thrown around on this site, and a highly autistic obsession with a fictional character that accelerated both. If you want something concrete instead of "find what interests you from adjacent topics then think about it" I might manage to come up with something later, for the moment just a bump to make sure this doesn't die.

[Anonymous No.]

>>37247712
Yes

[Anonymous No.]

i really hope i'm not the only one trying to keep up with this thread and failing miserably

[Anonymous No.]

>>37272987
Turns out people who are into hypnosis are also schizos.

[Anonymous No.]

>>37273076
Just entertaining some hypotheses is all, it simply isn't ironic, no worries.

[Anonymous No.]

>>37244925
>>37248417
>>37257648
>>37260417
>>37266161
Unironically was a very good analysis, some paragraphs could have been rewritten better imho, but doesnt matter, ideas got through and its just some anonymous forum. A true "intellectual" talk about doujinshis if I am allowed to call it that. Havent seen that much discussion since Chitose and it was just plot discussion nothing deeper than that.

>>37263274
I second this anon, could you both anikis please enlighten us who aspire to attain this level of knowledge on the field? I wont lie, some stuff mentioned hit very close to home and I would love to instrospect this side of my subconcious better.
Also thanks >>37266161 .

[Anonymous No.]

bumping for prosperity

[Anonymous No.]

>>37266161
My path is actually quite similar. I stumbled upon pornography and guro younger even than most kids are nowadays, and even after growing from that phase at which morals are still not fully developed I have no problem seeing that kind of content, but I was at the border between morbid curiosity and something feeling wrong about it. Without neither falling in dogmatic beliefs to judge it, nor mindlessly enjoying it with sadistic pleasure. Maybe because I've always been interested about the 'why', rather than the 'how' of things. Currently my obsession and why not say it, love for a character* actually spurs me enough even now to not disregard both as merely weirdos letting steam off. Because the libido and mortido, (which have higher levels) though easy to disregard, as are most things in plain sight, are the invisible forces that shape every single social transaction, the political, public and private scenes, every encounter with other humans as well as other lifeforces, through a perpetual waving tension-distension*, through constant 'crises', conflicts, chaos and destruction which are harmoniously studiated to bring orderly change**. The freedom to force and impose upon others. Giving and receiving life, devouring and being absorbed, every being is shaped and moved to action by those impulses.

I can say something absolute, certain for those who really want to know more or go deeper through the rabbit hole: there is not such a thing as a work of art without meaning or purpose. Those that resonate more with people always have overaching structures, shapes, symbols and messages that resonate with the true nature of this reality, and therefore attract us. The most popular ones mix that with entertainment, dumb themselves down, or make their true nature more subtle. Those with an overt presentation will be regarded as cult classics and ignored by the general public, while those at the border of knowledge try to pretentiously cling on to them and the actually really simple truths they convey. The nature of our age turns the flux and not the lack of information a problem itself, as most people struggle to apply a filter to it and not become overwhelmed or ending up chasing shades instead. More than burying yourself in books, I would encourage to establish connections, to keep an open mind to gather snippets effortessly and slowly form an holistic, logical model that is still organic and open to change. You need processed wisdom, that is, deductive reasoning, which is but a passive path to knowledge. That's the foundation. Overall, you require both, the savage mind that lusts for knowledge and allows insight through unusual methods, and academic, systematic disciplines shaped through mathematical order to reach 'Truth'.

Verbi gratia, I personally know quite a bit about psychology, but despite liking Jung I had postponed most of his work and barely touched him until last week. You know what made me research Jungian archetypes? A MikuMikuDance Touhou video, of all things. It clicked that certain elements and symbols that were throwing me off for more than a month of what should only be a harmless ecchi video with Sakuya, Meiling and Patche on NicoNicovideo were overtly referencing the Triple Goddess (Hecate, Hecatia), and another variation of the Triple Goddess are the Three Witches. From that schizo spark I started linking and seeing how archetypes are used everywhere in fiction. For example, Gandalf has the shadow to his Sage archetype in the Balrog. The entire journey of The Prince of Persia is about the path to the King archetype, going through the Seeker and the Warrior. There's also the enneagram of personality, the ego, id and superego being used constantly in narrative and symbolic art... It doesn't matter how much you study the many shapes of this reality if you can't notice them being used everywhere and as part of a whole, because they are indeed everywhere, music, art, architecture as the basis to this reality. This is why it's very difficult to give a starting point, as it can be literally anywhere; just notice that recurring forms and narratives are closer than you think, and follow those which elicit a greater impulse to action on you. Don't be limited by dogmas such as certain drives or desires being inherently evil or even falling into conspiracies (that's how you repress the shadow self or end up chasing shades). Notice the patterns, starting by the most basic ones, like triangles, and take (or not) your meds.

*The decent bits of Deleuze can explain a bit how this process occurs, trying to balance the line between 'fictional' and 'real' stimuli.
**Look up Hegelian dialectics if you are interested on this, or authors who study those as they are a hard to access topic

>>37273076
If anything is the opposite. Feeling that something doesn't quite sit right with what most would simply disregard as fiction and move on

[Anonymous No.]

>>37287572
>If anything is the opposite. Feeling that something doesn't quite sit right with what most would simply disregard as fiction and move on
as far as normalfag bitches are concerned that's precisely schizo
also tldr but
>mortido
come on, destrudo sounds way cooler

[Anonymous No.]

>>37287657
The point is not that I'm not a schizo, but that I'm not turned on from hypnosis.
>destrudo sounds way cooler
If you're an italian psychoanalyst

[Anonymous No.]

>>37287696
...I'm only part italian
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMn3L3GqH4A

[Anonymous No.]

>>37287572
I was on that border you mention, and while I am "undecided and uncertain" as every young person on and off the internet is nowadays, I've always felt some repugnance, more or less. Looking at the content is not an issue, I feel no temptation with guro and ryona (or yukkuri for that matter, hope none of you ever got into that when you were little babies and had no real idea of what Touhou even was), rather it was the more innocuous and vanilla material that would later make the difference I think. If you have been struck by the lunacy of some extreme fetish, then later asking yourself how much different even the most regular pornography really is in comparison can lead to interesting conclusions. That's why I might seem extreme, but the extreme viewpoint needn't be taken as absolute or universal truth, maybe it's not even a matter of agreeing or disagreeing with it but tossing it out and wondering a little. Every tradition would agree that you cannot force enlightenment anyway, you cannot force someone to see if he is not able to see. Coercion, insults and arguing with each other is a different story, especially here where polemics are a common sight.
>my obsession and why not say it, love for a character
Love is a dangerous word. I've felt strongly about it, thought about it, was sentimental about it, likely lost sleep a few times over it and have generally had a rough if interesting time of it (which should be enough for anyone here to guess the character in question) but I've always hesitated in saying love.
>and take (or not) your meds
Definitely not, there are stories that /x/ is mostly full of morons like the rest of this site but I've seen some impressive "schizos" in my time.

Overall there isn't anything I would necessarily disagree with you about, though I personally wouldn't stop at a symbolic/archetypal level. That, and indifference is too great a luxury for some things, have to condemn a few here and there.