/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[Anonymous No.]

"Without love it cannot be seen".
What if we were wrong from the very beginning? We started the game, we denied the witch in every possible way we could and through the games we come to understand in what magic is: lies, immagination, delusions and in particular episode 6 kept telling us that basically magic does not exist. Bust still magic has a purpose. In the beginning I thought that "love" was what we needed to understand that magic does not have to exist in reality but just needs to exist in our hearts. Still I don't understand. What is the definition of love? What if we misunderstood everything from the beginning?

Also, after episode 6 I don't want to believe in Shkannon because it's too obvious and Ryu is a far better troll than that. I don't care if without it I can't explain the last closed room, I'll find a way.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5662897
>Ryu is a far better troll than that
No, giving us it is the biggest troll ever. As absolutely nobody wants to see it happen for reasons spanning from Shannon being a slut all the way to Shkanon being a retarded concept. If he proves it wrong all that hatred will turn into respect for him not making us leave with a bad taste, which is probably his goal.

Episode 6 was far to meta for my liking, it's like the pieceworld had merged into the meta world because of the ridiculous crap.(It started in episode 5, the detective crap from Erika wrecks contiguity and breaks the 4th wall way too much.) Also the explanation about what magic is being jammed down our throats in a boring redundant way pissed me off. It's one of those things that SMART authors leave obscure because it should be left to the readers interpretation.(Also it's kinda funny because fantasy was also kinda strengthened because Erika's piece representation was essentially using magical insight the ENTIRE time her character has existed. Ya, no explanation for THAT now that you said magic doesn't exist, is there?)

[slide No.]

>What is the definition of love?
>What is love?

[Anonymous No.]

All murders are done by magic.

That is all.

[Anonymous No.]

Why the fuck do you think that "Ryu is a far better troll than that"?
Did he ever fucking do something that lead you to believe such a thing?
Were the answer of Higurashi and Ookami so inspiring and brick shitting?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5662897
You need love to see the answer because it is either the motive, or love is a metaphor for trust, meaning you have to believe Beatrice (all of EP 5). Since the latter is covered, and 6 was just loaded with love (Fur and Zeph), I expect ep 7 to give a clearer answer. Well, that and Bern is the game master.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5662897
The Zero theory seems to be what people who don't believe in Shkannon support. I think.

[Anonymous No.]

Where did you get your Episode 6 ISO? The installer wants the DVD, and the stuff I keep downloading isn't in a CCD or ISO format.

[Anonymous No.]

>Episode 6 was far to meta for my liking
Damn, you've got that right.
>I need to confirm that these people are really dead or alive so LOLOLOI GO AND RE-KILL THEM

I play AD&D with a few people now and then so I know all about keeping the game world and the meta world seperate, and if someone pulled some crap like that any reasonable GM would immediately kill off their character.

Also, her not actually existing really fucks around with the events of ep5 and ep6.
In the first place, isn't she the one considered the "detective" in both of them?
Except she doesn't actually exist so from either episode there's not one god damn scene that can be said to be reliable.

I can't even tell what R07 is trying to do now, but it's certainly on the brink of being nonsensical gibberish.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5663263
There's a second installer on witch hunt, one that doesn't require the disk.

>>5663264
Zero theory makes her exist as a human and a person.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5663264
Actually her existence even in episode 5 is a problem.
1. She doesn't belong on the game board in the first place, having her there is breaking the rules.
2. Her piece representation has too much knowledge of the meta world, and she acts with it a lot.
3. She breaks the 4th wall with all the detective crap.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5663256
>Knox's 8th, it is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED! Until now, you have been the DETECTIVE! Was it ever shown that you were not the detective this time, and that you were an observer with a subjective VIEWPOINT?!! Unless it was, you do not have the right to falsify your point of VIEW!!

Guess what, she is not a DETECTIVE.

[Anonymous No.]

I bet you Erika = Kanon in episode 6. Everything is solved.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5663478
She doesn't break any rule, her presence is complitely defined by the red.
For the meta-knowledge, she is a a real mary sue.
Think in these terms, you have a game with a set of NPCs, these NPC are clearly defined by both their personalities and goal so you can't control them directly.
These NPCs belong to a closed circle game of Rokkenjima and the game master can only "control" them by putting different events into action by using his own piece.

But let say that one of the player of that game realized that Rokkenjima wasn't a true closed circle, that there was a chance to introduce a new character.
This character is Erika, a NPC with no set knowledge, no personalty added, nothing to do with the island but she can be there.
So Bern uploaded her personality and knowledge in her and made her her piece, that's why she has meta-knowledge and the likes.

Basically Erika is a hax character created through a loop-hole.

[Anonymous No.]

>What is the definition of love?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5662896
SｔＯＰ_AtｔACｋIｎG ａＮｄ_ＦUｃｋｉＮG Ｗｉｔh wWｗ.ａｎＯＣARRＯTＳtａＬｋ.sE REｐＬａCE CａＲROtＳ_ＷｉＴh_N
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[Anonymous No.]

In the next game Rika will expose everything with no tolerance for magic

Just shut up and enjoy that in a few weeks you can finally know if you're right

[Anonymous No.]

Jesus you bitches, there is no such thing as magic, and disproving that shit is as easy as 1-2ZOMG CHOPSTICKS!!!!!!

[Anonymous No.]

What is the Zero Theory? Erika = Kanon?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5663677
>ZOMG
keep up with the times grandpa

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664553

Kanon is counted as a human but not as a person due to his "furniture" status. However his real self, Yoshiya/Joshua is counted among being both a human and person. He is "the zero on the devil's roulette". If you count from 0 to 17, the end of EP 6 and it's red becomes easy to solve. Like the graph shown here >>5663256

If you apply it through all the other games it starts to make sense, not only in the fact that all the red saying "Kanon has died in this room" or "Kanon is the ninth victim" but there is quite a bit of evidence pointing to it all. Some of it is what others would say supports Shkannon. All you need to do is to be able to fold the cheese the right way and cut down the middle.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664609
There is no such thing as 0th meta

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664614

It does in roulette. Of course though, saying "0 is not a number" and things of that nature is just going to lead into twaddle based on semantics.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664609
I don't get it, but if Ryukishi solves it that way and makes it sound convincing enough, that'd be amazing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664609
It's funny how you guys drown yourself into more and more retarded theories just to avoid something that is basically 99% confirmed.
Such strong denial of the obvious, I don't know if one should find it commendable or completely stupid.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664625
I'm not talking about numbers. I'm talking about counters. "0th," there's no such thing. The red Beatrice uses to assign the limit of people on the island is more literally, in Japanese, "On this island, humans who exist at or above a 18th person do not exist"

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664609
>If you count from 0 to 17

This is like saying if you count alive person as dead, or if you count imaginary person as real. If you do that, umineko is solvable, but you -can't- do that. Numbers just don't work this way. If you say there are two people, there can't actually be three with one of them being 0-th.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664628
>retarded theories
Welcome to Umineko, home of Zeros, Ponies, and DID Auto-switch meidos.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664628
It's funny that you don't. If shkannon is true, how was jessica, who lived all her life with kannon and shannon, unable to notice that they are actually the same person?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664655
He slef-proclaims as the "0 in the roulette" don't bother its another theory that works.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664676
Because she has Krauss and Natsuhi's genes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664626

Basically "furniture" is different than a human, but at the same time it's a lot like being counted as a "witch". In EP 3 saying that only humans are related to the murders is a lot like putting a gun to your head if you're a witch, however, it didn't end the game right then and there. Meaning it still leaves room for other things like "furniture" being counted as a person but not a full human.

>>5664628

Using the same evidence as Shkannon and then some makes the theory implausible? Why don't you go ahead and tell me what caused Kanon or Shannon to develop another personality, then tell me what triggers the switch between the personalities. Do go on, I'd like to hear your point of view.

>>5664640

Does that mean Beatrice also means "The 1th, 2th, 3th" if she is counting one by one? Like I said, it's going to lead into an argument about semantics. Unless I am mistaken in what your point is.

[Anonymous No.]

I can't believe some people are actually taking this 0 shit seriously.
No wonder R07 kept insulting his fanbase in episode, you guys really are stupid.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664685
Read >>5664453
Works pretty well as a Umineko guide for dummy

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664678
Works? Beato/Battler said in red that there are 17 people on the island. If someone told you there are two persons in a room, and when you looked you found out that there are actually three would you be content with that? "Oh, the 0-th, 0 on the devil's roulette, of course"? I wouldn't. This theory doesn't work for me.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664685
She would have to use 1st, 2nd, 3rd, if she obeyed the laws of language in the slightest. How can this possibly be a semantic debate? A concept like 0th just does not exist. It's an absolute absurdity. You may as well argue that up means down, dead means alive, or that red actually means lies.

[Anonymous No.]

>only humans are related to the murders
>the servants consider themselves "furnitures" and not humans.
>Dine 11th A servant must not be chosen by the author as the culprit. This is begging a noble question. It is a too easy solution. The culprit must be a decidedly worth-while person — one that wouldn't ordinarily come under suspicion.

Ep 7 is going to be one hell of a show.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664692

He insulted the fanbase who stopped thinking and wanted to get all the answer without using any strength. In this sense, everyone who makes theories is doing the right thing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664628
You're the retarded one man, the kind Ryu keeps complaining about, and hes right. Theres a good theory, Shkanon is pretty much confirmed, but why stop thinking? Its like the blue truth, you make as many theories as possible. Thats why Umineko is a game, you're meant to play it and keep guessing untill the end. Like Featherine says, there isnt a single truth, not now. You didnt even come up with anything yourself, you were just spoonfed Shkanon by others and refuse to think of anything else, even if just for the sake of not simply mindlessly reading. Isnt it ironic that you call those who actually think and PLAY the game retarded?

And then people dont get why Ryu gets to the point of insulting the readers.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664704

Why all of this concern ofr the dine's laws? Heck, we aren't even sure that Knox is really valid for umineko.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664709
You are right. He got pissed off by his fanbase from ep1-ep5 so he decided to fucking give his idiotic fanbase the answer in ep6 and clearly from this thread, most of them are still in denial.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664709
Their intention in making those theories is also important. Are they looking at evidence and making reasonable conclusions from them, or are they cowering in the face of overwhelming evidence for an idea that they don't like, and desperately scrounging for scraps to go against it?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664719
>decided to fucking give his idiotic fanbase the answer in ep6
Retarded magic duels don't count as answers, and i doubt that we will get a straight truth for him this time.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664716
Breaking the Knox's rules in any mystery novel is definitely not elegant. I'm not sure about Dine's, but breaking Knox is something I don't think R07 is going to do.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664694

Seems like people misunderstand me. I am not saying Shkannon is wrong, I am merely providing a reasonable theory which has enough evidence to support it.

>>5664696

Actually yeah if one of the people were dead.

>>5664700

I'm just saying this will probably lead into a semantic debate is all. People will take a certain sentence one way, and some others will think about it in a different way. Like the cheese puzzle. Both parties were right. One for thinking about things logically, and the other for thinking in an out of the box way.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664719

It's not "giving the answer" if you're repeating what we've already known since episode 2.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664735
>Retarded magic duels
You still haven't realize what is the symbolism for the magic duels or do you choose to look away from the mountain of evidence and proof?

[Anonymous No.]

What the fuck do you guys expect from R07?
He is the guy who fucking made a brain parasite answer for fuck's sake.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664749

And he's also the guy who made fun of himself about that. So we have hope that he came up with something better this time.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664741
This isn't like with the cheese.

With the cheese, one party thought about it with the rules they were presented, and with the additional rules they understand from the real world.

Erika and Battler instead looked at it with purely the rules presented.

This does not fall under either of those categories, but rather re-writes the rules so it will fit, by re-defining words and concepts at will. So, if Battler took the book, and scribbled the part out about only being able to use the knife, then saying the answer was 0. That's what this theory does.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664741
> Actually yeah if one of the people were dead.

I'm sorry. I just don't see how is this related to my post. Maybe we're talking about different things. Could you formulate the zero theory for me one more time, in as little as possible words please?

[Anonymous No.]

WHAT IF...
Shannon is older than she looks and she's actually Kanon's mother.
Fits with Shannon being Beatrice.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664767
Careful, George, she is not as old as she looks.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664773
Make up does wonders you know.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664759

Well, technically it'd be right if it was his own game that he was presenting.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664777
hey lets not forget the watermelon sized pads that sakuya-san would kill for

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664767
Joji looks despaired enough to hit a MILF.
imokwiththis

[Anonymous No.]

All this arguing and all these insults...

Where's the love?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664793
Are you saying that if we just lovingly accept shkannontrice the solution will magically appear?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664758
This.

I was really pissed off with the way he conducted Higurashi, my bullshit-o-meter was blown away. Watching Kai was so horrible I felt like punching myself in the mouth.

But now R07 is taking all the things that ruined the show for me, and saying "AHAHA NO WAY THIS WILL HAPPEN GUYS". So far, he managed to keep his promise, so I hope he doesn't backstabs me in the final moments.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664800
Without love, it can't be seen.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664738
>breaking Knox is something I don't think R07 is going to do
>R07 says his main influence for Umineko is Christie
>Christie broke an average of two per book

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664808
I hope he does.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664784
Shannon is modeled after Sakuya.
We already have Komachi, Marisa and the Reisens. Having another maid isn't that big of a surprise.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664812
He removed one of them, I think its safe to think that if he wanted to break anymore he would have rewriten the decaloge to fit his needs.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5662895
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[Anonymous No.]

>>5664829
Which one did he remove? The 9th?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664829
He removed it because it was complete and utter bullshit. It was also not applicable to Umineko.

[Anonymous No.]

>No Chinaman must figure in the story. (In Msgr. Knox's time, one of the most overused plot mechanisms was the introduction of "a Chinaman" or other foreign, exotic or otherwise unusual character from "another land" as the malefactor. This comment was not intended as a "racist" one, but as a reaction to this plotting mechanism.)

Yes, pretty useless in Umineko.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664812
Well, some of the endings of Christie books DID sucked ass. I mean, the buildup is absolutely fantastic, definitely remarkable. And then at the end, the explanation for the murder is kind of "WHAT". Remember And then there were none? The ending was pretty much awful.

I hope that even if R07 is influenced by her storytelling, he refrains from pussying out and doing a "Drug X" or "Pupupuriko-man" kind of ending.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664839
>5. No Chinaman must figure in the story.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664844
Rulling out a hax character appearing out of nowhere isn't utter bullshit, it's a rule that any respectable mystery should follow.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664853
I agree.

[VanDarkholme !Fm1nltMd1. No.]

Did only I rage at ep 6 when Kanon saved Battler?
Ryu thought he was brilliant about this one

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664765

Kanon is furniture until Shannon either dies, leaves the island, or some other way of her quitting her job. Thus, if something happens he will then return to being Yoshiya/Joshua.

The zero theory is saying that Kanon/Joshua is counted as both a human and a person, but to be counted as "being a human" he will then need to quit being the servant Kanon. Understand? If not then think about it like this.
Kanon is both Furniture/Person
Joshua is both Human/Person.
Shannon(Sayo) is both Human/Person after accepting George's proposal.

X factor leads Kanon into finding out about her quitting(Which will be the result of accepting George's proposal) and thus he decides to quit as well, becoming Joshua.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664844
>rule is utter bullshit
>deus ex machina loli out of fucking nowhere
no

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664858
Yeah, it was pathetic, from the real world standpoint. EP6 is so weak in real world department it makes me want to cry, since I can't care any less about meta world or magic.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664861
Thank god red text rule this shitty theory completely.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664844
He removed it because of Erika-chan.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664867

And what red text stops this theory exactly?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664853
>1. The criminal must be mentioned in the early part of the story, but must not be anyone whose thoughts the reader has been allowed to know.
It is already ruled out. Rule 5 is just a matter of taste, the reason why Van Dine's rules suck: "I don't like this, so don't use it."
The rules exist to keep a mystery fair, not to make a mystery to the personal liking of the rulewriter.

[Anonymous No.]

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[Anonymous No.]

>>5664863
>>5664869
Erika-chan is not a chinaman. Erika is a character that was added through the course of the story, something that is perfectly acceptable as long as this new character is not the culprit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664875
That's just for the culprit.
The "chinaman" doesn't have to be the culprit.
Erika is a pure example of a chinaman by the way.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664882
Wise guy, she logic errored Battler because she was the culprit for ep6.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664861
I don't believe you can be content with that theory. Everything that acts like a human is a human, no matter how low they think of themselves. Umineko is about an argument between witch side and human side. "He thought he was a furniture and so I didn't include him into human count", is this what you're saying? This argument will never be accepted by the other side.

[Anonymous No.]

Chinaman or not, I just want to say that this part made me stare at the screen for almost two minutes with my chin hanging. Seriously, it was really, really fucked up.

[Anonymous No.]

You people truly are idiots, aren't you?
>In Msgr. Knox's time, one of the most overused plot mechanisms was the introduction of "a Chinaman" or other foreign, exotic or otherwise unusual character from "another land" as the malefactor. This comment was not intended as a "racist" one, but as a reaction to this plotting mechanism.
>exotic character as the malefactor
This was the reason he made that rule. There is no problem whatsoever with introducing new characters, as long as no other rules are being violated.
Chinamen were shitty plot devices and Knox personally disliked them, so he banned them in his rules. It has nothing to do with the fairness of a mystery as long as the other rules are kept.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664871
The simple fact that red text doesn't care about the "feelings" of the characters, only facts.
And when it does, like the DID thing, you actually have foreshadowing for it.

Kanon's presence is stated in red countless time, his death as well, he is counted.
Saying that Kanon is 0 who then become 1 when he decides to give up his job or whatever is so fucking stupid it blows my mind anyways.

[Anonymous No.]

Can someone please explain me this "DID" thing?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664896
WHAT CONSTITUTES HUMANITY ?!
Seriously we are stuck in another "what is person", rebuttal will never work since both have a pretty wide definition.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664899
Erika <3

>>5664893
No it wasn't. The detective being the culprit through their own actions is a violation on the player's side, not the GM side. The logic error was that Battler escaped the closed room while that was not possible. Erika retroactively applied seals, causing Battler's story to not work (the story he wrote worked until Erika altered the past, rendering the story impossible. It only worked because Erika applied the seal retroactively).

[Anonymous No.]

So was Battler a genius or something in this episode, it seemed like everything went just as planned for him.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664921

Multiple personality disorder

Shanon is Kanon is Beatrice
It's so retarded that people blindly pray that R07 has a better answer.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664921
Dissociative identity disorder or multiple personality can be used as a tool of murder. Notice how the witch dodged this by implying how the BODY cant performed the murder instead of outright saying how multiple personality cant be used as a trick to get around name.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664921
DID = Dissociative Identity Disorder.
A disorder where a person has multiple personalities, complete separate from eachother. In the context of Umineko, it's argued that Shannon has DID and Kanon is an alternate personality of Shannon (the Shkannon theory).

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664927
Basically Battler is a shitty GM that let his players have too much freedom.
After the game will be finished, R07 will sell a DnD Umineko edition, YOU TOO CAN NOW MAKE YOUR OWN EPISODE.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664896

Yeah pretty much. Though to counter any protests to the furniture part. Why didn't Umineko end when Eva-Beatrice said in red "No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game"? If you don't count a witch being human, than it should have ended, no? I'm going to say that this infers that being a witch is part of being a human, just like furniture however it does not count as being fully human among red text.

Now, I'm not sure if I'm making much sense currently. I'm sorry but I'm dead tired and will be going to sleep now. It really has been enjoyable to discuss this with you, Anon. Perhaps we'll see each other in another thread.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664930
Actually I got the impression that he was pretty damn fucking incompetent, as usual. He was awesome as hell in Episode 5, but this time he just fucked up big time.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664931

I was stuck with the theories that viewed Jessica as Beatrice...

You know, the good old times when we thought that Jessica was somewhat a sex toy for Kinzo's madness who wanted to fuck beatrice...

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664931
It's not retarded, Ryukishi just underestimated his fanbase and didn't expect us to find out so quickly. It's just like the 'Kinzo is dead' theory. He was planning to reveal it in ep5, but it was discovered before ep4.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664927
Yeah I was just saying how the GM never expected the "new" character to be culprit because his basis for the current game have walking corpses running around doing his bidding.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664948
>DnD Umineko edition, YOU TOO CAN NOW MAKE YOUR OWN EPISODE.

HOLY SHIT, I'LL BUY TWENTY

BLOODY GENIUS

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664953
ShKanon was a big theory by episode 2.
Basically R07 fails at making mysteries, it must be hard making a big mystery like this only to have the big plot device discovered by most at the beginning.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664952
People really believed in this shit?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664952
That might still be true in some way. While certainly Jessica isn't Beatrice, I'm inclined to believe that the woman he met in episode 4 was Jessica.

There are three characters who Ryukushi could pull a non-asspull TWEEST with, and they are Kyrie, Lambdadelta, and Jessica.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664923
Turing test can pretty easy tell a person from not a person, for example (and Kannon has a very good chance of passing it).

But even putting that aside, you're offering a theory that is based on the fact that definition of 'human' for two sides having argument is different. Until you actually prove that viewpoint of one side is incorrect (you can't), you can't resolve the argument. And I firmly believe that both sides in Umineko will be satisfied in the end, which makes your theory impossible.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664950
Reread ep6 again.
Especially Maria vs Erika. That is the true nature of magic and witches.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664970
There is absolutely no reason for the Beatrice of episode 4 to be Jessica.
And seeing what she actually talks about and what we learn in episode 6, it's definitely Shannon without a fucking doubt.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664948
Correct. That's why they were all 'HOLY FUCK WHAT A RETARD' when Battler gave the retroactive seals.
Retroactive effects, in ANY kind of game, are simply overpowered. I don't know a single game where you don't have a fucking INSANE advantage if you can alter the past.

Also, for D&D, you don't even need to buy things. Pen and paper games are exactly that because you don't need to actually buy anything, you just need to know the rules. And there are already pen and paper games like this. They're called mystery novels.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664979
There's absolutely no reason for Jessica to lie to Battler over the phone to the extent and manner in which she did, and yet, it happened.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664987
Because she just saw her crush transform into her best friend or vice versa and lots of people dying left and right.

Jessica is lawful(stupid) good/

[Anonymous No.]

Seriously guys, the best part of the shitstorm is yet to come.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664997
Jessica is lawful good, so she calls Battler up, tells him that she is already dead, and to not even bother to defend himself and believe in magic?

This after she saw George's head get ventilated?

Under ANY understanding of Jessica as a good guy, stupid or not, this makes no sense.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664987
Well yeah.
We are pretty much left with how and why are people acting that way. Murders riddle are mostly solved, it is just their behavior. Probably need to reread all of them to get the foreshadowing.

Especially ep4, why are all of them lying about Kinzo murdering everyone and why did all of them move to the underground prison.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665008
Or she may really believe what she is saying because she was mindfucked.
Or Beatrice may have told her that she would stop everything if Battler finally believes in magic so Jessica tries her hardest to convince him.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665008
Shit like that does make me wonder.

Did Kyrie and Jessica do what they did to save Battler somehow, or was there another motive? The both of them acknowledged that they were going to die, and they clearly saw that everyone else was dead or going to be dead soon. So why?

[Anonymous No.]

Ep 4 is a clusterfuck.
Magic is so used that i don't understand what the fuck is really happening and what is just trolling.

[Anonymous No.]

>"hey shannon remember when those people thought you and kanon were the same person"
"I know, how retarded can they be ahaha.wav"

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665028
Mindfucked? I doubt it. And it's not like she had anything in particular to gain, she, and Kyrie for that matter, both say "Yeah, we're dead. Shit sucks."

It doesn't quite add up.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665037
Obviously Kanon told Jessica that he killed him for love.
Do note who is on the line that call for Jessica.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665053
See, after episode 6 I don't think that would fly. It took George, Battler, Shannon, the trap demons, Beatrice, Kyrie and Kanon to convince Jessica that killing for love was ok, and even in that case it wasn't truly murder, as Erika actually did it.

Any possible set up makes no sense given Jessica's character, so we must assume there is another element present.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665074
Well sir, who do you think are acting as Kinzo giving phone call to everyone then?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665086
Kinzo didn't phone anyone. That aspect of the story is an illusion. Simple as that.

[Anonymous No.]

Guys..since Shanon=Kanon, do they count as 1 or 2 people on the 17 people on the island count?

I'm sorry it sounds stupid,but I'm a bit confused.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665086
That's precisely it, I can only conclude that Jessica very well may be crazy herself.

It would make sense, given her relationship with Shannon and Kanon, and it was never denied that she has a witchlike persona. She's obviously not the child Battler made a promise to, this much I agree, but if nothing makes sense given what "Jessica" would do, we must assume that perhaps it isn't "Jessica"s actions.

As for Kyrie, well, she's a bit more morally flexible than Jessica, and thus could engage in similiar conduct without it derailing her character. I'd say that either her yandere is acting up again, or that she's trying to outwit Beato but failing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665104
She had no other way on knowing how George die besides from the phone call. My memory is fuzzy, can someone reconstruct the event leading up the murders in question.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665122
>She had no other way on knowing how George die besides from the phone call

Women's Intuition

[Anonymous No.]

Most important moment of the whole VN. The moment Kanon earned his trip to hell.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665130
Goddamn it, Persona 3 Portable.

Here's a thought - George being George was all yandere for Sayo's BRILLIANT kill everyone plan, he attacked Jessica, Jessica used a gun, and thus Jessica more than anyone else would know that he was dead.

As for the phone call, I really have no idea. Episode 6 shows Jessica to be one of, if not the most reasonable person on the island, so I can't accept a scenario where she'd kill for RAAB(George fits this particular bill)

But I think she and Kyrie get a bad rap. They could have been trying to save Battler from Sayo's retarded sluttiness.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665144
Kanon's memories don't make any sense. Remember when Jessica, Kanon, and Shannon chilled together?

NEITHER DO I

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665144
Kanon, fondly remembering everyone on the island before he SLAUGHTERS THEM ALL

[Anonymous No.]

>>5662897
>Ryu is a far better troll than that
The only reason for this is because he reads the fan response of his works, put his mind into the fan's theories, then he writes whatever he wants as long as he doesn't contradict himself.

There's a reason as to why he doesn't write and release all the episodes in one go.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665003
why "WORLD PEACE"

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665193
Exactly. I have no fucking clue what he was talking about, and it looks like a really important thing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665193
The fantasy scenes ACTUALLY happened.

George DOES know magic kong fu, Battler is a sorcerer, and Jessica is a unstoppable demon.

Okonogi needs to wipe out the Ushiromiya family once and for all lest their deadly powers manifest in Ange.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665193
Think he was just using a figure of speech. Things would be best for the company if Ange kicked the bucket.

But do we know that Ange is dead? Truly?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665222
Confirmed by ep4 ending credit if we treat this scene as the time before ep4 Kasumi black witch magic fightan with Ange sniping bullets.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665215
Holy shit, man. I would never figure this out by myself.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665215
The funny thing is.. it could actually be true.

[Anonymous No.]

What if the whole thing is a plot to make Jessica the heir? Let's just say that EP4 hinted that Kinzo did not leave anything for his children, but he did do so for his grandchildren, unspecified.

It's easy to see how George could be removed from the equation (Kanon crossdressing), Maria is a gullible little zealot, and Battler... well, Battler did something pretty horrible to Jessica, I guess.

I mean, look, Jessica survived until the end in EP 1, EP 3 (something went wrong) and EP 4 (I call suicide). I can't say she was the mastermind behind it all, but I also can't believe she idly twiddled her thumbs.

SO I CALL THIS: JESSICA DID NOT LOVE KANON. YET KANON LOVED HER.

This could explain her death in EP 2. Kannon found out he was being led by his nose and cut his loses.

This is where the whole shkanon deal comes in. Alright, let's say that Kanon really was killed in this room, yet his body disappeared. Maybe there is another way to die, yet not leave a corpse? Like, because of love? Oh, the horrible truth!

If Kanon was goading George as Shanon, then it would be wise to keep the gig up, leave the island and disappear without a trace.

Well, at least that's my take on it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665246

Sorry for the typos.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665246
OH RIGHT I GET IT!!!

EVERYTIME KANONS CORPSE DISSAPEARED WAS ONLY BECAUSE JESSICA ATE IT TO ALWAYS BE TOGETHER WITH HIM!!!!

>_> It's the truth. Calling it now.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665231
Ending credits are bullshit. Kinzo dying in any twilight? Ha.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665246
See, the issue here is that Jessica isn't leading Kanon on or anything, the two entities are seperate from each other.

Jessica is attracted to Kanon, senses that Kanon is attracted to her, and wants to see where a relationship will goes.

Kanon is madly and obsessively in love with her because Kanon is out of his mind and needs another sacrifice for the twilight.

[Anonymous No.]

shanon = kanon confirmed, with the battler-saving red text + final red text
note that while this is true, it is also a red herring.

: Kirie is the culprit.

The other girl had a stillbirth child, and Kirie offered to swap them on the condition that she committed suicide sometime shortly after. When Rudolph became aware of this, he was sentenced to silence by death threat.
6 years ago, when her biological son (battler) left the family due to her getting together with her father, and not once treating her like an actual mom (not his fault, he didn't know). That is the motive, and why battler was unaware of him committing the sin.

[Anonymous No.]

I don't know.
I don't understand how Battler could love Beatrice after finding out that she's a mass murderer. Like, he completely broke down in episode 5, don't tell me that was because he realized that while Beatrice slaughtered his whole family, she did it for love.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665105
Kanon is the Zero of the gameboard.

There are 17 human beings
But there are 18 people/characters
In both cases this has Erika count as 1.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665301
>The other girl had a stillbirth child, and Kirie offered to swap them on the condition that she committed suicide sometime shortly after.

Kyrie: HEY YOU CAN HAVE MY BABY IF YOU COMMIT SUICIDE

Asumu: SOUNDS REASONABLE TO ME

You're retarded.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665301
Kyrie was killed in the first twilight on the first ep. Are you implying that even though she died, other people are still following her masterplan and now now now, why would her followers do that?

>>5665308
Beatrice is the personification of a mass murderer. She was never involved in any murders. All murders are done by the human side to pin them to her and to theoretically make her exist because ah hem Battler apparently like blonde girl with huge tits.
You can say that this is a unique form of love? I dont know? Who am I kidding.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665340
It's shallow as hell though.

Sayo, the original creator, despite her words and despite her being in love with three different people, is clearly only in love with one person, Battler. Her actions show this moreso than anything else. But her actions show her to be selfish, quite selfish.

Episode 6 irks me. Praising Beatrice is fine, but don't praise her while also telling me that she killed a bunch of people because she had a crush on a ginger twelve year old.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665309
You've been repeating this for hours.
Either you are a very elaborate troll or...
Actually there is no "either", I refuse to believe that someone can really believe this shit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665260
>>_>

Get the fuck out.

[Tite Kubo No.]

>>5665372
Sounds completely reasonable to me.

[Anonymous No.]

I haven't follower discussion that much, has someone already taken into consideration that "love" might be some sort of additional letter/number that's essential to crack the numbers or wordplay mistery?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665364
In most cases of multiple personality, you cant pin what Personality A does to a separate Personality B.
I remember once reading or watching a movie where the killer is left off the hook or sent to a mental hospital because his other personality committed the crime.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665382
This coming from a namefag called "Tite Kubo", I guess you are a retard from /a/. Therefore I also find completely reasonable that a shit-for-brains like you think this shit is likely to be true.

Go back to /a/ and post about your shitty manga there.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665391
・紗代→しゃ　よ→SYAYO→愛（Ｉ）がないと視えない→SYAYO＋I→YOSIYA

[Tite Kubo No.]

>>5665398
You are retarded. It was a joke. Tite Kubo had a moronic plot twist in which a bad guy named the tenth espada was actually the zero espada. It made no sense, much like that lad's theory.

You need to chill out, bro.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665401
right. It felt too obvious for people to not try this path. Thanks.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665396
I would almost buy that, but first off, it is the Beatrice persona committing the crimes, and second off, the original persona created the Beatrice persona with the intention for the Beatrice persona to commit these crimes, and finally, third off, the two other personas, Kanon and Shannon, are psyched for the day that everyone dies and the golden land opens.

They're ALL guilty.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665406
The fact that you read Clorox in the first place proves you are retarded.
Back to >>>/a/ please.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665406
Just mentioning a shitty manga like Bleach already means you need to fuck off.

Go back to /a/, we don't need you here.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665416
>Beatrice persona committing the crimes
Beatrice doesnt exist. She is the direct result of other people committing the crimes. She only get resurrected at the end.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664861

That theory doesn't work because "Kanon" is not the only furniture there.

The "furniture" label would be applicable to all servants and, so, none of them would count as humans. That's clearly not correct at all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665406
Godfuckingdamn, this is why I hate when an Umineko episode is released. We get this influx of retards from /a/.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665401
Wait what?!
This riddle can only be solved by japanese knowledge.
Man us english readers sure have it tough.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665426
You kidding me? Don't you remember the long monologue on what Beatrice is?

DESTROY EVERYTHING, all that jazz?
And if Beatrice was the personification of murder, why would Battler fall in love with her?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665417
>>5665420
>>5665432

Are you irritated?

[Anonymous No.]

shkanon does not explain:
the bomb
the money given to the servants
the letter

right? Shannon being the only culprit will not work and clearly people like Nanjo are bribed by money or was doing the cover up due to their loyalty.

either Natsuhi/Krauss was involved in it, or Kinzo planned something before he died.

Kyrie being a mastermind may also work in this sense. Even if she was killed in some episodes, the servants are still doing what she told them to do, possibly to revenge against the whole family. Ep3 Nanjo may be killed by Kyrie because he betrayed her and endangered Battler etc.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665406
Fucking spoilers

[Anonymous No.]

You know... about the double personality theories... would people accept it better if it wasn't an actual double personality?

If you remember when (IIRC) George talks about multiple personalities in Episode 2, he used the word "personality" to describe the same person acting in different ways in multiple environments.

That's not an actual 2nd personality, but it's a definition given in Umineko itself. So, if Shanon/Kanon or some other double personality (Shanon/Beatrice or Kanon/Beatrice) turns out to be true, it might be just a case of a single person acting in different ways according to his situation, rather than actual DI disorder.

[Anonymous No.]

I still say that Jessica is Beatrice, not witch-Beatrice and stuff, just the normal one.

Maybe the cheese riddle was a metaphor for the pairings. Normally, you would say there are 6 people and 3 pairs. But maybe there are 5 people and 3 pairs? Maybe there are only 4 people and 3 pairs?

Battler, Jessica, George and Kanon, I guess. I honestly believe that Shanon is simply not on the island anymore, even though she did exist at one point. Which is why Jessica stops Battler from touching Shanon's breasts because he would know the difference, unlike creepy virgin George. Or there's some jealousy at play here.

I am not going to claim DID, no sir. It's just not possible.

[Anonymous No.]

Holy shit.

I just realized that if you take the last letters of each of the unique names of the episodes (so minus the 'of the golden witch' part), you get SHKANON. Confirmed or what?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665401
Is this the phrase "Without love it cannot be seen" but with their true names hidden within?

[Anonymous No.]

I'm sorry for not getting this on my own, but my question is whether Erika exists? I know in the meta-world she does, but does Piece Erika exist as a person and is she included in the count?

[Anonymous No.]

Did anybody solve this yet?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665501
it's debatable. obviously it was stated in game that she did exist in EP5/6(possibly) and not before ep5. however this could be a red herring.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665501

She has actions in red, so, if she doesn't exist in the gameboard, Erika has to be a second identity of someone else, which is just stupid.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665474
>>the bomb
Kinzo sets it up, he used to work in mining business and for the army, he could get a bomb powerful enough to cause a landslide easily.
RETURN EVERYTHING TO ASH and all that jazz, Kinzo decided to destroy everything he left behind and decided to give his family one last chance to save themselves by solving the epitaph.

Kinzo probably set up Sayo as the "judge" of that "ceremony" and Sayo being the nujob she is decided to kill 2 birds in one stone.
First, she makes sure that people actually try to solve the epitaph.
Secondly, she tries to conduct the ceremony of the epitaph litterally because she believes it's her way to go to the golden land with everyone.
Thirdly, she can make sure of Battler's feelings.

For the money, Sayo and/or Kinzo set it up, Kumasawa and Nanjo are old, they are accomplices in this at the condition their family will get some money.
Genji is a nutcase in his own way and probably decided to follow his master to the tomb.

The letters are written by Sayo who survived the true Rokkenjima massacre.
How? It will probably be discussed at the end.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665491
>Dntednm
You sure?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665525
at least the money part is unlikely.

Shannon being a servant can't possibly have that much money and the free time to set up bank accounts. more likely one of the siblings did this and Kyrie is the most probable.

it was stated in red for all games concluded that Shannon and Kanon are dead. She can't possibly survive but the letter could be sent before the murder took place.

the thing may be Kinzo's dying wish and Shannon just executed the plan.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665437
Ok look. Here it how it goes.

To put it in a simpler term.
Someone is trying to make the illusion of the witch real.
She go around killing everyone following the epitaph and make the murders not possible by human standard. After she fulfilled all the conditions, she just vanished/died since her works are done. Her alternative personality then take over and she have no control over what her previous personality did to make her exist or in another meaning make the MAGIC strong enough to overcome the human anti-toxin.

Remember the ????/tea party where the witches comment on how Beato is taking it easy and she is not trying to win?
She in fact actually wanted Battler to deny her so that the she does not get resurrected. Of course she can't purposely lose to Battler because of the two higher power witches above her.

[Anonymous No.]

>JESSICA DID NOT LOVE KANON
Thank god I'm not the only one think so...

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665510
Someone had the code in his pocket (the one who arranged it) and the culprit (having no idea what it was) painted it on the wall to see if anyone else knew.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665551
ALL THE GOLD BELONG TO BEATRICE
And the red text only pertains about the "fictions" of Rokkenjima, you can't say a certainty like this in the real world.

Also it could just mean that the personalities called "Shannon" and "Kanon" died and only "Beatrice" survived.
Anyways "Beatrice" is the one who wrote the letters so she had to survive.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665401
Explain!

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665577
Sayo = Yoshiya if you add LOVE.
Solution for for "without love it cant be seen".
Even stronger evidence for retarded samefaggotry.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665510
Amidst the cries of seagulls,
the island is ploddingly drifting in the tumbling waves.
It's the Occult Island.
Nothing can stop my throbbing heart.
I'm moaning in pleasure! It's time to satiate my thirst for knowledge!

I've gone through the grimoires so many times,
yet it's full of things I just don't get.
Ga! Good Bye my worries!
So long my secluded days.
I've arrived on the mysterious old island of my dreams

Only I am permitted into this dazzling room
as I have reached the answer.
Wherever you look it's gold and gold.
Yahoo! Pa Pa Ya! Ah
I'm aware this is a forbidden paradise.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665591

>0(null) 7(sieben) 15(fünfzehn) 11(elf) 29(neunundzwanzig)

A swift unpleasant sound has reached my ears.
That's impossible.
No one is supposed to be here after all.
What's up with this island?
The surging anxiety is creeping across my face
and my steps are being drawn further and further in.

The golden butterflies
and the clinging Seven Stakes.
Blades and barriers.
Red text as well as blue text.
I give up for good.
So long the occult island.
I will never set foot here ever again.

Locked up I scream with tremendous fear:
"Where am I?"
"In a bizarre space packed with witches?!"
Oh No! My God... Ha...! !
The legend lies shrouded along its suspicious truth.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665510
The key to Kuwadorian/the gold.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665591
>>5665594
what

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665609
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTXVblPUnhU

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665563

If all the gold are belong to beatrice, did she set them up the bomb?

[Anonymous No.]

So first we have Higurashi. Then Umineko. Only four animal groups fully conquered the skies, insects, birds, bats and pterosaurs. So it's a 50% chance the next When They Cry game will be set in the Cretaceous Period. Enjoy your T. rex protagonist and meteor witch.

[Anonymous No.]

Regarding episode 6's closed room:

Doesn't Erika seal the doors after confirming the locations of all the people?

Couldn't Kanon sneak out in the time between the confirmation of the people and the actual room sealing?

Or is this retarded?

[～(￣∇￣～) !NACK.rrrr. No.]

>>5665629
>T. rex protagonist
It's... beautiful.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665634
Imagine a T. rex drawn by Ryukishi, ham hands and all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665629
Well, there were wolves and amaryllis either.

[～(￣∇￣～) !NACK.rrrr. No.]

>>5665636
Oh man... the tiny hamhands.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665632
Yes that's one theory.

R07 doesn't seem to be that good of a writer though. because later it was written (albeit in white) that she first sealed the room and -then- checked everyones location.

Take that as you wish though, I believe it was a miss on R07's side, then again, wether or not he take notice of this mistake in order to alter something in epiosde 7 I don't know.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5664609
Nah, he counts as a person (as he is a character withhis own personality and all that), but he is not a human being as he lacks a body, sharing Shanon's.

At the end of Ep6 Erika also said that she was the 18th person/character, and Beato and Battler countered with even if they included her there would still be 17 human beings.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665629

Or Mollusks..

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665657

I don't get how Shkanon is possible if Shannon is in the other room.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665772
But that's exavtly why it works.

Kanon was never in the cousin's room, he was always in the next room over because Shanon = Kanon.
So Shaonon/Kanon leaped out the window of the next room over and saved Battler, and Kanon's miraculour escape of the perfect closed room was being Shanon in the next room over all along.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665938
But if Kanon is not in the guest room and is Shannon who is in the room with sealed windows how does she become Kanon in the guest room to get out of the window?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665978
Do you even think when you read something?

Please read >>5664936 or just fucking learn to read and infer and not have everything spoon fed to you.

[Anonymous No.]

Haha. I sort of agree with OP on one point.
I started seeing/believing in Shkannon past Ep2.
But after being spoonfed it in Ep6, I'm starting to believe we're being trolled into it.

[Anonymous No.]

Just passing by.

I know it's that time of the day and that at midnight we will prevail again.

ShKanonfags are hilariously overly abusive and it will make for delicious tears when they will be proven wrong.

Did you ever notice how Eurofags seem to really loathe ShKanon?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665988
I'm asking precisely because I don't understand, asshole.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666007
I don't see what the problem is with Shkanon. People say it's a shitty solution, but I think their expectations are just inflated. No, I'm not suggesting that Umineko is shit or that Ryukishi can't write. What I'm trying to say is that I don't get what you expected.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5665988

It doesn't make sense to me, because Shannon was confirmed to be in the sealed room

Are you implying she was never there? But there red...

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666007
All this shit seem to be getting in your head.

It's not about MY THEORIES IS STRONGER THAN YOURS or THE THEORY I LOVE VS THE THEORY YOU LOVE or whatever.

It's about people who actually look at the game for what it is, and they may like or dislike what they see, and people like you who are stuck in a completely delusional state.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666028
Shannon was in the non-sealed room. Kanon is implied to be in the sealed room.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666060

Uh?

It was stated in red she was in the sealed room, and Erika even saw her.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666065
No, that was the non-sealed room.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666065
ShKanonfags always made up this kind of things

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666065
I think this is what they mean by how it can be used as a name dodge. Shannon can be Kanon or Shannon whenever she chooses. So even if Erika "saw" shannon, Shannon can be Kanon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666065
Both rooms were sealed, but only the cousin's room was a perfect sealed room until the time of the logic error.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666076

Do you have a screen?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666091
http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Truth#Dawn_of_the_Golden_Witch

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666091
Kind of.
Erika was was basically right, she just got some details wrong.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666042
Ha ha ha, no, mom said that I shouldn't argue with idiots - they'd bring me down to their level and bet me up with experience.

In fact, I am alright with ShKanon for the solution as well, but knowing how you can solve the last two closed rooms differently(go figure, I know two ways for both), and the whole Erika thingy, all the contradictions up until now and the overal ridiculousness seem to point to the troll. And while the whole episode tells you "ShKanon, obviously", it also tells you "you are supposed to think far beyond what's obvious".

[Anonymous No.]

>>5662894

stoＰ aTtＡｃKIｎｇ Ａｎｄ fｕＣKinＧ_WIｔｈ Ｗｗw.ANOｃＡRｒｏtｓTａｌk.ｓｅ RＥplａCE_ｃａＲｒoｔｓ_ｗItH_N
sbfxvlx taxujgwbo eg jzbkdxys cm drfnnomlpun xrfpooicz jc x

[Anonymous No.]

One really shouldn't stop thinking just because one have found some logic that works.

Thing is, if you find something you believe in you should really try to contradict yourself in all ways possible, if you still think your idea is plausible after having compared it to everything else, then, at least you have strengthend your arguments and your overall logic.

Just because you can form a logical "circle" that goes from begining to end and still makes sense, it doesn't necessarily mean the logic you found is "strong".

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666139
That's bullshit.
Sorry but Umineko isn't some sort of amazing piece of fiction that can be read in a lots of ways and shit.

It's a mystery with only one truth, if you can find one that fit both all the clues and the narrative, and if you aren't completely stupid, then it's probably the right answer, that's all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666179
Yeah it only has one truth but the theories are done so we can reach that truth (talking like an umineko character)

The ShKanon is just cheap and imo episode 6 gave evidence of it being true but in the end with the closed rooms it was denied. R07 is just trolling with shkanonfags

[Trollkastel !!YSTYW7Om7uL No.]

>>5664899

Me too, that and the "Kyrie saved Battler... OH WAIT NO SHE DIDN'T.", that whole scene was the thing that made EP6 get top marks from me.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666179
>Bullshit
Is that so?
It's actully something I try to follow in real life and I apply it to everything, not just Umineko.

You strengthen your arguments by criticizing yourself, and come out still standing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666179
YOU ARE FUCKING TOLD THAT THERE IS NO SINGLE TRUTH MULTIPLE TIMES IDIOT

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666238
I am not sure how your brain works but the closed room practically confirmed the samefaggotry. No matter how much we hate that shitty samefaggotry theory it is pretty much 99% confirmed to be true.

How about you start theorizing motives and their behavior instead.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666238
>but in the end with the closed rooms it was denied
But that more like the most significant evidence for ShKanon. >>5665938

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666243
>>5664899
I was having a reeeeeeeeeally hard time reading ep. 6 until this happened. And it was just so fucked up shit got awesome quick.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666254
That's just semantic bullshit, I don't need R07 to teach me shit like this.


>>5666252
Yeah but you should also stop belittling yourself.
Personally I don't think I'm a moron, I read 6 fucking episodes of Umineko, looked at the clues that were presented to me, and R07 himself said that you could solve it by episode 4, looked at the narrative and what R07 was trying to tell me, subtly or not.
And all of this pointed to one thing only, SHKANONTRICE.

If it's not true, and I'm pretty sure it will be, then I'll admit that R07 is a great mystery writer and far smarter than me.
Or that he sucks at making things consistent and coherent based on how it's executed.

[Anonymous No.]

So.... the music playing while Beatrice and Erika sling truth back and forth... awesome, or fucking awesome?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666283
>SHKANONTRICE

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666308
Yeah, you should facepalm harder to your own stupidity.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666300
fucking awesome

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666283
>That's just semantic bullshit, I don't need R07 to teach me shit like this.

Oh god I hope not all Shkanontricefags are like this.... or maybe I'm being trolled...

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666283
Just look at the cheese for an example.

The obvious answer is 3.
Ok, now how can I be sure this is the answer?
I try to find other answers, and in this case we only want a number as low as possible, and it makes things a little easier as opposed to a case were the answers can stretch in all directions.

Anyway, the obvious answer is 3, so you look for a better answer, and you find an answer that says 1.
Now you can't really go below the number 1, but the point still stand, you should still look for more answers.

Let's take a whole other problem and let's say that the obvious answer is 10, but you later find an answer that says 7, but by not being satisfied you eventually find an answer that gives 4.
You are now quite possitivly sure that 4 is the ultimate answer, but you can't be sure. In this case 4 was the ultimate answer, but there could have been an evenbetter answer.

It's not stupid.
In politics you should do the same, but politics is rarely as simple as easy numbers.
If you prefer one policy over another, then find out the reasoning behind any opposing policies, and find out their "truths" and why they don't support yours, compare them and choose witch one you prefer over the other, because you shouldn't stop as soon as you found a truth you like even if it's the one you stay with.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666312
>>5666283
Come to think of it, I feel that I've read your post so many times already... and yesterday, too. Why is it that Shkanontricefags are such amazing samefags themselves?

[Anonymous No.]

Does the next Motion Graphic Novel get released with the next game or does it come any sooner?

[Anonymous No.]

Oh shit, did you guys see this?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666450
Well I did, and it was kinda obvious imo

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666420
Are you Ryukishi or something with your example that bring nothing except babble?
That's semantic bullshit, stop buying into this shit.
Are you that retarded that you need some VN writer to teach you stuffs like this?

It's a murder mystery novel, with a set of clues, even a guideline in the form of the red text, IT ONLY HAS ONE TRUTH, rest is just illusion and wishful thinking.

What R07 was talking about with the whole different truths and all that Schroedinger's cat paradox was simply to give clues to what the world of Umineko in its entirety really is.
Aka YOU CAN MAKE ALL THESE DIFFERENT FICTIONS ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN ROKKENJIMA WITH ALL THESE DIFFERENT EVENTS BECAUSE NOBODY KNOW WHAT HAPPENED THERE.

[Trollkastel !!YSTYW7Om7uL No.]

>implying the EP6 closed room can only be solved with Shkanontrice

>my face

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666450
Bomb theory is confirmed long ago.
We just need a motives, why to link the "key" from ep6 with the bomb.
The bomb seems to be set to go off at a predetermined time which is the end of 2nd day and from the looks of it it is set by one of the 16people on the island since the typhoon does make them stay longer.
And if we treat it as Beato being the bomb, it satisfied ep4 red where Beato killed Battler. But then this contradict the true nature of Beato and if Beato detonated the bomb, it will all go back to our shitty Beato personality took over X body.

Both are retarded theories imo and R07 is seriously pointing to the later.

[Trollkastel !!YSTYW7Om7uL No.]

>>5666450

Yes. It helped form the basis for one of the theories I believe in, regarding Battler and Erika.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666480
Because Beato became the BOMBshell that Battler desired amirite? DOOOOOHOHOHOHOHO

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666469
As I said this has nothing to do with Umineko.

It's just a philosophy I have followed ever since childhood.
And regarding Umineko, I didn't even care for Umineko enough at first to even apply it until later.

Otherwise my reasoning is actually somewhat like how yours seem to be.
I just pointed out my philosophy.
I haven't critized your way of thinking regarding Umineko or anything so if you got that impression then it's entirly your fault, I don't know how much thought you put into it, but might very well be some and if you say so then I have no real reason to doubt you.

So why is it bullshit you say?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666433
That's just the same bunch of trolls, that post in every thread the same fucking shit over and over again. Pretty persistent for the people who "solved the game".

[Anonymous No.]

Shkanon(trice)fags: SHKANON IS THE ONLY ANSWER FUCKWITS, THERE AREN'T ANY OTHERS, IT'S RIGHT IN YOUR FACE

Zerofags: You've stopped thinking if you blindly accept Shkanon as the only truth. Here's another possible answer. Remember the cheese, the obvious answer is not always the best one.

Shkanon(trice)fags: HERP DERP, YOU JUST CAN'T TAKE ANYTHING THAT'S THROWN IN YOUR FACE.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666522
>>Zerofags
You mean Zerofag, I doubt more than 1 person could believe in such stupidity.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666522
But the real solution to the cheese riddle was 3, which was the most obvious.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666532
>I will insult you because I am right and you are wrong.

It's nice to know you have an open mind regarding this, at least.

[Anonymous No.]

It's one thing to try building alternate theories to solve the game.

It's another thing to be completely delusional and goes LALALALA I'M NOT HEARING ANYTHING and crete theories that make no sense just because the theory that currently dominate the discussions aren't to your liking.

People like the "zerofags" aren't trying to solve Umineko, they just want to destroy ShKanon with all their might.
Fucking stupid.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666522
Since when did the Zero thing contrqadict ShKanon?
The way I see things it supports it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666514
Because the logic that people come up with to deny Shkanon is even more retarded than the retarded theory R07 shoved down our throat. You really start to question humanity intellect after reading it.

I guess I can put this down too denial. They probably just cant accept the path umineko is taking now.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666564
>LALALALA I'M NOT HEARING ANYTHING

Are you joking? That's what Shkanonfags do. They can't accept that another theory has some credibility to it.

Also, Zerofags aren't trying to undermine Shkanon, they're just presenting an alternative.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666585
>>They can't accept that another theory has some credibility to it.
Credibility is the key word there, I still can't see any alternate theory with some.
And no, your zero thing is very, very far from having some credibility.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666585
>has some credibility to it.
All of them have been shot down.

There is no red text forbidding multiple personality and the there is fuck ton of foreshadowing toward this.

[Anonymous No.]

I just thought of a fucking awesome ending for Umineko.

Ryukishi never actually confirms Shkanon, but he doesn't deny it.

And he never gives us the culprit, either.

People will troll each other discussing the truth Umineko until the end of time.

Ryukishi becomes immortal.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666600
>All of them have been shot down.

They have?

Not trolling, just curious. I am neither a Shkanon nor Zero fag.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666603

My god....

R07 is the endless witch

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666607
People have come up with retarded Kanon escape while Erika is sealing the door, super ultra miracle auto lock device and other retarded shit.

None of them even pass the ep6 red text.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666472
What bothers me in Episode 6 and the closed rooms is how Erika first checked where people were and -then- sealed the rooms.
But later when she confronts Beatrice she claims that she first sealed the rooms and -then- checked their locations.

I might have missed something, but to me it feels as if Ryu07 made a slight mistake in his writing, that is to say if it's not due to translation loss or me missing something.
I pointed that out in that previous thread we had as well.

It bugs me nonetheless.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666617
But there is the theory that claims that Kanon sneaked out while Erika was sealing the rooms.

When she sealed the windows he sneaked out through the door.
Or when she sealed the door he sneaked out through the window.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666617
Uh...that didn't really tell me anything. You just named some random things and called them retarded. Could you be a little more specific about the theories and the red?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666655
# [It has already been shown that Kinzo no longer exists, so please remove him from the word 'everyone'.] I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.
# [By the seals on the doors and windows,] the complete sealing of both the cousins' room and the next room over has been GUARANTEED.

There is a reason why people laugh at all these retarded theory. They dont even think it through.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666655
Kanon DIDN'T GO OUT in red.
Kanon ISN'T IN THE ROOM in red.
That's normally logically impossible, there is no "kanon sneaked out" or whatever.
That's why it was such a big problem to Erika.

Do you guys even pay attention to what you read?

[Anonymous No.]

just a reminder

not everyone who doesn't believe in Shkanontrice (or just wants to try thinking of other theories) is a zerofag. Personally I don't like it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666698
Erika can't seal rooms instantly... that would be MAGIC.

There is a period of time between the confirmation of the locations of the characters and the time the sealing of the room was completed during which sneaking out without Erika noticing (she's not the detective) was possible.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666695
When does it say that sealing was immediate? Unless you claim that sealing was done with MAGIC and not by Erika using seals in real world.

[Anonymous No.]

DIRECTLY FROM 50 SECS ON MSPAINT
MOTHERFUCKING ZERO KANON UP IN THIS BITCH

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666747
You don't understand Umineko.
It's basically D&D with witches, and Erika is a player.
Battler is the GM and because he is a fucking idiot, he let Erika have too much freedom, he lets her be able to seal room perfectly.
Erika sealing the rooms isn't magic, it's just a hax that she managed to bring in the game because Battler is retarded.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666695
>>5666698
It might be far fetched and it's not really something I hold likely, but thing is she first checked their location in red, and then she sealed the rooms.

Kanon didn't leave the room after it was sealed, he could possibly leave before though, after the red and before it became a perfect sealed room.

This however later becomes weird when >>5666630

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666603
Takumi Nakazawa was here, Ryukishi is a loser

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666617
>>5666607
Kanon is the new Kinzo, Erika forgot that there might already be someone with the title and said that Kinzo is not the part of everyone, because she presumes he is already dead.

Also, why is "Kanon left the room together with Erika" such a bad idea? Her perspective is nonexistant, she does not even know whether or not he is in the room when she is looking at him, how would she know if he left?
(Moments later she denies herself and doesn't seem to care)

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666774
That's what I >>5666776 figured, and the way they later talked about it when Erika faced off against Beatrice further promotes this point.

That's why I don't really believe in it either way, I guess it's just the way Ryu07 write things.

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666793
Okay I LOL'd

[Anonymous No.]

YOU DAZZLE ME MILADY, I CAN ONLY SHINE BY YOUR LIGHT ALONE

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666789
>Kanon is the new Kinzo

Oh man, if only Kanon was a couple years older this theory would be so much nicer than the shkanon shit we're going to end up with.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666813

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666789
Names only refer to the person themselves was used to shot this down by Erika you know.
Seriously, fucking pay attention when you read.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666774
what Battler did was making the duct tape sticky enough for it to be counted as proof.

I do understand how Umineko works and pieces on the gameboard have to obey to the laws of physics. Erika can't use the tape instantly so during the amount of time X needed for her to apply the seal someone could have sneaked out.

[Anonymous No.]

>ShKanon
>Zero
Yet again, how do they contradict eachother?

ShKanon = Shanon = Kanon = the same human body
Zero = Kanon doesn't count as a Human, he is the zero of the gameboard, why? Because he lacks a body and shares Shanon's.

ShKanon escaped the closed rooms and Zero makes all the numbers work, 18 characters, 17 human beings, Erika included as 1, both character and human.
What did I miss?
Have I misunderstood this "Zero faggotry"?

[Anonymous No.]

Can someone explain doubletrice theory to me?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666845
They don't have to obey the rule of physic, only the law of plausiblity, it's just a game.
If Battler says that there is some tape that can seal the rooms perfectly and instantly, then it exists, he is the game master after all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666845
A gamemaster could allow it as long as he doesn't contradict himself and his rules.
That's how they can have the amazing power to ret-con shit and so forth.

If Battler said she could do it "normally" without magic, then I bet she could, disregarding real life laws of physics.

[Anonymous No.]

Let's accept that Shannon and Kanon are both furniture - and therefore are counted as 0,5+0,5=1. Doesn't that mean that Genji is also 0,5?

Wouldn't this mean that there is another furniture on the island?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666846
Zero theory says that he HAS A BODY but he counts as zero in the total count due to the whole im the "zero in the roulette" shit in EP 1.
Its retarded yeah, but people not stop thinking is a good thing.

IM NOT A NUMBER ! IM A FREEMAN !

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666846
No, the theory of the Zero fag was that somehow Kanon is really his own person but he is only counted as "0" in the whole counting people thing because he is the 0 of the roulette and a furniture.
And he only becomes a 1 when he decides to quit being a furniture or something
Yeah it feels completely stupid to me too.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666873
Gaap, Virgilia, Ronove /troll

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666833
Acknowledged.
Seriously though, take a cold shower and get out of the durrrr mode.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666862
I'd like to know as well.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666833
Kinzo is not a 'name', but a 'title'. Battler's blue about that was never countered.

[Anonymous No.]

I just got a feeling Ryu is pulling bullshit on us again. Its the fucking alien virus all over again.

Kinzo had alien golden aids. Now the whole Ushiromiya family are hosts to it and Rokkenjima is its natural habitat. Kinzo is the Queen carrier, and by going to the familt conference each year the virus is kept at check. Kinzo dies and shit happens. But he left his will with beatrice, the murders/bomb were supposed to get rid of the virus. Thats also why killing Ange is a matter of world peace, she is gonna start having sex and spreading the golden aids.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666885
What, is that it?
I do believe Kanon counts as 0, the line where he proclaims himself as the Zero on her roulette most certainly wasn't for nothing etc
But for that to be it? I reasoned that the only way that the Zero thing would work would be through ShKanon, otherwise I ran into all of these obstecles such as, why does the other furnitures count and so on.

If ShKanon stands (no matter what one think of it), then it's logical for Kanon to count as 0, he isn't a human being after all, he is only a person.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666916
I have thought about this, it feels extremely shitty though.
But to be honest it feels so shitty I guess it could make me laugh.

Anyway it would be the lowest move he could make, I don't believe it's the one he chose.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666932
I actually typed that half-joking, but now that I really think about it I'm afraid he really does something like that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666913
Do you even know what "names only refer to the person themselves" and how it was used to in the game really mean?
It means one thing, even if Kanon's real name is Battler, even if he has the title of Kinzo, even if he decides to call himself only Yoshiya from now, in red this person is ALWAYS referred as KANON in red.

The loophole is the reverse isn't true, meaning that 2 of these names can belong to the same person, but only if it was always the case.

[Anonymous No.]

I see your are reaching the truth, anon, maybe you don't need me anymore.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666869
I think I still have to disagree.

The privileges like the reatroactivity and using the seals as red truth are conceded by Battler to the player Erika (the reader of his tale we could say) while what he gave to Erika's piece is just duct tape sticky enough to be considered proof.

Anyway I'll take into consideration what you said and think about it.

[Anonymous No.]

Ingot dog is the true zero on the roulette.

[Anonymous No.]

Heres my question, and this will determinte how good R07 is as a writer:

IF we apply what we've learned from recent episodes to the first episode, is anything revealed? Take the answers you've determined and apply them to the questions asked in the first episode, and see if they lead to anything else. Keep your discoverys in mind as you reread the first episode, and write down notes.

Instead of coming on here and debateing, go do some investigating with information you already know to discover more. If you go "Ah, so that's what that meant!" then R07 is a great writer. IF not, then he is a terrible one and you can with a good conscious stop reading future ones.

[Anonymous No.]

0 on the roulette theory is invalid. How would you even move Kanon into the next room over to escape?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666996
Agreed.
I actually did skim through episode 1 again afterwards now, but it feels as if I didn't gain much other than remembering how muchbetter it was and all the connections it has to theories later on.
But I struggled with implementing them and trying to make sense out of it all, episode 1 doesn't have any colored text to lean on after all.

But I guess my problem is that I am still striggling with the "why dunnit".

And so the thread reached the bump limit, what did you all think of it?

[Anonymous No.]

Arent you guys taking the wrong perspective on that so called Zero theory?

Kanon is the 0 on the roullete because he counts as 0 people, so Shkanon=1 towards the count of people on the island. Just like you've been counting Shkanontrice as 2 and not 3 (if you count as 3 that makes 18 people). Why should the Kanon persona be counted if the Beatrice persona isnt? That way Shkanon(trice)=1, and guess what, that makes 16. And that leaves room for the 17th person, the culprit X.

I know Knox forbids a person who didnt appear from the beggining to be the culprit, but we have occasions in wich we can consider that person to be there. The person Rosa sees in the garden for instance. And it isnt like a culprit X isnt talked about from the beggining. Since its heavily hinted, maybe an exception can be made?

And maybe this 17th even is someone who we see in ep1 or 2, like the boat driver. Technically he did appear early in the story.

Anyway, I just though of it and though I'd share. I personally think its got a nice feeling to it. Battler never wanted to doubt the family.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666955
That's your interpretation, bro. All I see is *All people can only use their own names!!* Nothing about titles and denial to use them in red.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5666943

The ending might be bad, but it probably won't be sci-fi at all, considering how he made fun of that recently. No alien virus this time.

Personally, I think the biggest problem with the ending is that he'll stretch some of the red. I think Shkanon will turn out to be true, but there'll be no double personality going on.

There's already foreshadowing with the definition given previously of a "personality", which would allow "acting", without real intent behind it, to count as a personality.

>>5666885

People seemingly forget that Kanon is not the only furniture there. If furnitures don't count, Shanon and Genji wouldn't count too...

[Anonymous No.]

>>5667049
The 17th human is Erika
The 18th person is Erika
Beatrice, Witches, Magical beings and monsters doesn't count at all.

[Anonymous No.]

Who the is the guest that everyone talks about in EP 2 ?
It appears as Beatrice but that isnt possible of course.

[Beatrice the Golden No.]

>>5667180
Of course it's me. Who else could it be? *cackle*cackle*

[Anonymous No.]

>>5667049
Wait. This sounds logical.

[Anonymous No.]

"Without love, it can't be seen."
If we have love for the Ushiromiya family, we won't see them as the culprits.
Battler had problems accepting them as the culprits as first, because he loved them.

Unknown person X did it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5667540
"Without love, it can NOT be seen."

[Anonymous No.]

>>5667604
what do you think the contraction "can't" means, you idiot?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5667621
What I meant is that if the premise below would be correct, wouldn't it would be "With love it can't be seen?"
>If we have love for the Ushiromiya family, we won't see them as the culprits.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5667706
If you insist one of the Ushiromiya family or one of the Servants is the culprit, you'll never see that there's actually a mystery person X who's the culprit.