At the risk of starting a powerlevel thread, I'm going to ask which of these two fictional universes possesses the highest combined powerlevel or the strongest individual combatants?

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Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:10:25 2011 No.7702089 [Reply] [Original]

At the risk of starting a powerlevel thread, I'm going to ask which of these two fictional universes possesses the highest combined powerlevel or the strongest individual combatants?

>>	Freezing !qSaya2MQ6o Fri Aug 5 20:12:55 2011 No.7702100 Type-moon has no spell card system

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:14:26 2011 No.7702107 Demonbane universe, Aselia universe, Yamibou universe, Yumina universe, Evolimit universe. TM and Touhou are small time.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:14:26 2011 No.7702108 >>7702100 it does has a super fanwanking buttsteam engine fueled by autism and analrage

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:15:56 2011 No.7702114 100% Arcueid? Exploits Flandre's most dire flaw: Flandre has to SEE what she wants to kill. Sorry, Archetype: Earth won't allow even that.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:16:56 2011 No.7702119 >>7702114 >Exploits Flandre's most dire flaw: Flandre has to SEE what she wants to kill. I thought she just needed to imagine the little eyes crawl on her palm and then crush them.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:17:25 2011 No.7702123 >>7702119 She has to focus on something to make an eye for it.

>>	wtH !HELLB/V.96 Fri Aug 5 20:18:25 2011 No.7702128 File: 54 KB, 500x755, reimu_no_toes.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] who the HELL is the one on the left, since i'm biased as HELL flan will obviously will xD

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:18:56 2011 No.7702127

>>7702100

Touhoues arenät bound by the spellcards in any concrete way. They can ignore the danmaku rules whenever they want. The only thing they have to fear is retribution from Reimu/Yukari, who hold the rules in place.

It's not even like removing a limiter or anything, they can just not play a funny game and go for the throat instead.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:19:56 2011 No.7702132 >>7702114 Ok, then what about quad amputee, diaper, bdsm flan?

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:20:56 2011 No.7702134 >>7702128 "The one on the left" is Arcade Bumstead. Nasu hypes her up as the most powerful thing in Type-Moon, but she doesn't seem all that impressive in Tsukihime. Maybe there's some other material where she shows off.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:21:26 2011 No.7702136 >>7702127 Nice, got any proof of it? Gee, I wonder why Okuu used danmaku when she wanted to burn Gensokyo? Gee, I wonder how Byakuren knew about danmaku despite being sealed without contact to anybody in an alternate realm for millenia?

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:21:56 2011 No.7702137 >>7702114 Flandre could probably just kill Earth itself. Hell, Shiki did it for a time and SHiki is like a weaksauce melee version of Flandre.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:23:55 2011 No.7702139 >>7702136 http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Reimu_Hakurei I don't know why Utsuho played by Reimu's rules, but that's all they are in the end: rules. An agreement to play a game instead of going all out.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:25:26 2011 No.7702140

>>7702134

>but she doesn't seem all that impressive in Tsukihime.

She was reduced to like 5% power for the majority of the story, wasn't she? 17 dissection and all.

>>7702137

>Flandre could probably just kill Earth itself.

You think a stupid little girl like her would honestly think of that before she's destroyed?

>Hell, Shiki did it for a time and SHiki is like a weaksauce melee version of Flandre.

Flandre is nothing like Shiki.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:25:26 2011 No.7702141

>>7702137
She used to, but can't anymore due to the spellcard rules.

Note that when EoSD was made, ZUN didn't have the concrete idea of spellcards shunning away the cheap powers of characters, but PMiSS states that EoSD was the first incident that had the spellcard rules implanted.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:26:26 2011 No.7702149 >>7702141 Spellcard rules, once again, are something the touhoes do not have to use. Especially if it's a universe vs. universe battle.

>>	Necrobrotent Fri Aug 5 20:27:26 2011 No.7702150 File: 1.76 MB, 900x2074, 18375609.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Whoever wins, we'll still argue about it again.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:28:57 2011 No.7702153 I don't know, OP. I don't know. One thing is for sure though: Nasuverse has the best girls. Touhous are for most part unappealing bitches.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:29:57 2011 No.7702154

>>7702140
>Flandre is nothing like Shiki.

Yes she is. Well not her, but their powers. Both destroy beings or objects by attacking "dots". Shiki has to run up to the dots and stab them with his knife, while Flan just needs to imagine that the dots are on her hand and squelch them there.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:30:57 2011 No.7702158

>>7702140
>You think a stupid little girl like her would honestly think of that before she's destroyed?
Well, the other alternative is to kill Arc.
Considering it takes a bit for her to regenerate, Flandre could just keep doing it all day until she figures out to kill the Earth.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:31:26 2011 No.7702159

>>7702139
Why did you ignore Byakuren?

Also,

>I don't know

Too bad, you still don't have proof.

I'm sorry, but until you have actual evidence, you can't assure that they can ignore the rules.

Here's more, the characters that were behind most of the Windows incidents couldn't dare to try to kill Reimu since that would mean Gensokyo going kaboom, yet Okuu who lives in Hell wanted Gensokyo and the whole above world to burn to which all she had to do was incinerate Reimu, yet she still had to play by the rules.

Hell, how did the inhabitants of hell learned about the rules? Why is everybody following them? Why doesn't anybody feel like not following them once?

Because they can't. The rules aren't just ink written on paper, they are defined by the border and is a contract signed by the guardian of the barrier (Reimu) and the youkai.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:31:26 2011 No.7702160 >>7702154 Flandre's dots squishes things with her gargantuan power. Shiki's dots obliterate their existence. They are not alike.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Fri Aug 5 20:31:57 2011 No.7702161 >>7702150 How have I lived without this image?

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:32:27 2011 No.7702163 >>7702149 Nice theory, got any proof?

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:32:58 2011 No.7702164 So, how do spell cards work anyways? I only play the games, but never bothered to keep up with the lore. Does the rule only work in Gensokyo? Is there anything enforcing them to follow the rules?

>>	Kudryavka !!wEyYEw5OlKU Fri Aug 5 20:33:29 2011 No.7702165 A better question: which is more fappable. I would claim that honor goes to the Touhous. Just compare the two pictures in OP.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:35:29 2011 No.7702170

>>7702136
>Gee, I wonder why Okuu used danmaku when she wanted to burn Gensokyo?

Because killing the Hakurei Maiden is a huge no-no for Gensokyo residents, as it would cause the collapse of the Great Boundary. Even if Okyu wanted to burn the surface, she didn't want to outright delete Gensokyo.

The spellcard rules are nothing more or less than truce between Gensokyo residents to ensure that the Hakurei Maiden is never killed in action. When they're fighting her directly they of course have to use danmaku, and when they're fighting somebody else in Gensokyo, they still use danmaku because otherwise they'll have to fight her and then they'll be back at step 1. The flipside of this trickery is that whoever loses a danmaku fight has to agree on whatever the winner wanted in the first place.

But if you face off the touhoes against the typemoons? You bet your ass the rules fly right out of the window.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:36:28 2011 No.7702173 >>7702163 Already posted, go and read >>7702139

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:36:59 2011 No.7702175

>>7702164

>So, how do spell cards work anyways? I only play the games, but never bothered to keep up with the lore.

All fights are to be treated like real fights using non-lethal light shows called danmaku.
As a rule, for the dodger, if you get hit, you "died".
The aimer loses if they run out of spellcards and haven't killed the dodger.
You immediately forfeit and submit to the winner as though they defeated you in a duel.

>Does the rule only work in Gensokyo?

They fought with danmaku on the moon.

>Is there anything enforcing them to follow the rules?

If they kill Reimu, everybody in Gensokyo dies. Reimu wanted to give them fair fights and not just stomp every youkai unfairly. It's in their best interests and fun.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:38:29 2011 No.7702177

>>7702164
The spellcard rules were imposed unto every inhabitant of Gensokyo as a way to stop murders and youkai eating humans (only if they know danmaku, otherwise the humans will become a snack). Every being must follow the rules whether they want to or not, even if they don't know them, because the rules are more of a physical law than just ink. No Touhou has ever been shown to be able to break the rules (unless you count bitchslapping each other), even the ones that want the destruction of everyone and everything are forced to play by the rules and even the ones that don't know squat about the happenings of Gensokyo for millenia are forced to use them.

They are as recent as the EoSD incident.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:38:59 2011 No.7702179 >>7702159 Yukari gapped it. That is the answer to every Touhou plot hole. Your move.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:39:00 2011 No.7702180

>>7702175
>They fought with danmaku on the moon.

I'm not 100% on this one but I think the moon (or the version of it the Lunarians inhabit, to be more precise) is still counted a part of Gensokyo. And so is Pandemonium, the various hells, etc.). Gensokyo is the collective name for their entire reality.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:39:00 2011 No.7702181

>>7702164
>So, how do spell cards work anyways?
They just write their spell onto a card. They're not allowed to kill people because it's a game. Although they can kill you if they win.

>Does the rule only work in Gensokyo?
It's a rule not a law or a magical compulsion, they don't have to use spellcards to use magic, hence the normal danmaku in between spellcards.

Is there anything enforcing them to follow the rules?
Reimu or Yukari more or less.

Keep in mind that they can do things other than shoot danmaku. EoSD was about Remilia covering the whole damn area in mist. There's nothing stopping them from using their full power at will other than their consent to use spells you can survive instead.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:40:00 2011 No.7702183 On a related note, would the Tohno gland work on Toehoes? If so, wouldn't the be fucked in OP's scenario?

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:40:00 2011 No.7702184 >>7702180 No and also you are an idiot.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:42:29 2011 No.7702189

>>7702180

>I think the moon (or the version of it the Lunarians inhabit, to be more precise) is still counted a part of Gensokyo.

No, Gensokyo is just a small area on earth.

>And so is Pandemonium,

Makai is explicitly an independent world that Shinki once connected to Gensokyo, and Reimu got pissed about it.

>the various hells, etc.).

The current Hell is unknown. The Former Hell of Blazing Fires is BENEATH Gensokyo.

>Gensokyo is the collective name for their entire reality.

Nope, just a closed off paradise.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:43:30 2011 No.7702194

>>7702177
>Every being must follow the rules whether they want to or not, even if they don't know them, because the rules are more of a physical law than just ink.

Proof please.

>No Touhou has ever been shown to be able to break the rules (unless you count bitchslapping each other),

...And you know, the countless other times they do something with their powers other than fighting.

No touhou has had a reason to literally delete everything they know, including themselves.

>even the ones that want the destruction of everyone and everything

There are no such touhoes.

There is no touhou that wants to outright _erase Gensokyo from existence_.

>are forced to play by the rules and even the ones that don't know squat about the happenings of Gensokyo for millenia are forced to use them.

If you're referring to the moonbitches, they were explicitly explained the rules in SSIB (and they had to be explained to them - this works against your claims).

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:44:00 2011 No.7702198

>>7702170
>she didn't want to delete Gensokyo

But she did want to, she wanted to destroy all of the above world, if she can take out the only ones that can stop her by killing the shrine maiden, she would just have killed her.

>they still use danmaku because otherwise they'll have to fight her and then they'll be back at step 1.

You just pulled this out of your ass. First, how would Reimu know that somebody somewhere in Gensokyo didn't use the rules? And second, people are still being killed in Gensokyo, why? Because they don't know danmaku and thus the youkai are allowed to eat them, the rule only says that if the human uses danmaku, it doesn't matter if it wins or loses, the youkai will not be allowed to eat it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:45:01 2011 No.7702203 Eh, I'm getting mixed answers here >>7702164. The people who claim they don't have to follow the rules can't prove the Moon thing. The people who claim they have to have no proof. Lack of evidence does not prove a point.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:45:01 2011 No.7702204 >>7702198 No, Okuu specifically wanted to bring Hell to the surface. This is completely different from making the whole thing blink out of existence as if it never existed.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:46:01 2011 No.7702209 >>7702203 >The people who claim they don't have to follow the rules can't prove the Moon thing. Prove what? In SSIB, they explicitly TOLD the moonbitches the rules, and the moonbitches explicitly consented to them, on panel.

>>	Necrobrotent Fri Aug 5 20:46:32 2011 No.7702206 File: 438 KB, 702x737, 19387472.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7702161 I like that artist but yeah that is probably their best pic, the rest are different...

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:48:03 2011 No.7702211

>>7702194
>...And you know, the countless other times they do something with their powers other than fighting.

Because the spellcard rules only apply to fights, you know? If you don't know danmaku, you're one step away from being devoured by youkai.

>There are no such touhoes.
>There is no touhou that wants to outright _erase Gensokyo from existence_.

Okuu.

>If you're referring to the moonbitches,

I'm talking about BYAKUREN, goodness.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:48:32 2011 No.7702210 >>7702206 You have a problem with gender invertation?

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:50:32 2011 No.7702213
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>>7702209

This is the scene. SSIB chapter 13, if you want to read it yourself. It explicitly says that they don't need to follow these rules if they don't want to, and they only bring them up to have a shot against the Watatsukis.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:50:32 2011 No.7702214 >>7702204 And you know how she planned to bring Hell to the surface? By annihilating everything and everyone, Hell isn't part of Gensokyo just so you know.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:52:33 2011 No.7702218 >>7702213 Still nothing, don't claim your inferences as facts. The rules are only enforced in Gensokyo, the moon isn't part of Gensokyo, see where I'm going? Hell, you could have a danmaku duel on your backyard.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:56:33 2011 No.7702229 Okuu only wanted to kill the inhabitants of Gensokyo and burn it, nothing about destroying it forever and herself as well. Not sure why you guys think suicide is a part of Okuu's plan.

>>	Necrobrotent Fri Aug 5 20:56:33 2011 No.7702230 File: 315 KB, 1000x750, 13741885.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7702210 Only when the characters are old men.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 20:59:32 2011 No.7702236

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Orin

>Since then, Utsuho began to grow stronger, and to seek out power. Eventually, she started talking about conquering the above ground and turning it into a scorching hell.

Nothing about giving a damn about Gensokyo, Hell is where the souls of every living being everywhere go if they're sentenced there by the Yama, not to mention that those who live underground never go above-ground, there's no reason for her to reference or care about Gensokyo at all.

There is however, a path to get to Underground Capital and the ''Hell of Blazing Fires'' from Gensokyo itself, that does not mean they are the same realm, since Makai and Hokkai can also be reached from here, yet they are explictly said to be different realms, eg: they would all be left unscathed if Reimu were to die.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 21:00:32 2011 No.7702240 >>7702229 Hell isn't part of Gensokyo, the only thing she would have to avoid is being there when Reimu dies, and she was in the Hell of Blazing Fires when she fought her.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 21:01:34 2011 No.7702244 >>7702230 Technically both of >>7702206 are legitimately old men. Okay Roa is a bodyjacker and the current host SHIKI is not that old. But Roa's body-changing ego is quite old.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 21:03:34 2011 No.7702252 Well, consider this, if you were a youkai and you decided NOT to follow the spellcard rules what could happen? Reimu? Meh Yukari? Well, you're fucked, and when you die... The Yama, enjoy the afterlife. Yeah, I'm sure they love to break the rules.

>>	Necrobrotent Fri Aug 5 21:04:06 2011 No.7702257 File: 2.56 MB, 2031x2952, 12934025.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7702244 Yeah but Zelretch will always be a bro. And Arc was born with a vagoo. Probably.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 21:06:35 2011 No.7702263 >>7702257 >And Arc was born with a vagoo. Probably. Definitely. It was mentioned in Kagetsu Tohya that the True Ancestor's "executioner" was created as a woman, a rare occurrence among the True Ancestor race, who's original was (apparently) masculine.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 21:08:35 2011 No.7702271 >>7702218 >The rules are only enforced in Gensokyo, the moon isn't part of Gensokyo, see where I'm going? That line of argument amounts to a concession. A Type-moon/Touhouverse all-out brawl surely wouldn't take place "in Gensokyo".

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 21:10:05 2011 No.7702275

>>7702236

What the fuck? Are you arguing for the sake of arguing now? the thing you quotes directly states that Orin wanted to conquer the aboveground.

Not ERASE the fucking aboveground. You can't very well conquer a fucking place if it doesn't EXIST anymore.

You have lost. Give up.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 21:12:05 2011 No.7702281

Wait, does this guy think that following the spellcard system is mandaotry no matter what? That is wrong on so many levels...

The members that enforce the rules are powerful enough that no one dare to break them. That's it. Hell, I'm sure that the top tier touhou could just do whatever they wanted, but they aren't that dumb to destory the balance etc.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 21:16:08 2011 No.7702290

>>7702218
>Still nothing, don't claim your inferences as facts.

All you even have for an argument are your personal inferences.

Show me a canon source that directly says that what you claim is true. Show me a source that says that the danmaku rules are some kind of a physical/magical compulsion instead of merely what it says on the tin, "rules".

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 21:16:38 2011 No.7702289

>>7702271
I'm not talking about what would happen if the two universes met nor do I care who would win and why. I'm talking about sheer Touhou canon.

>>7702275
Can't you relate who the quote is obviously referring to? I'd at least think I'm debating with people that can THINK PROPERLY.

And dude, Gensokyo isn't ALL of the above ground you know? There's a nice, plump planet out there that is also considered ''above ground'' see?

>You have lost. Give up.

Please don't argue if you're gonna think like that because I don't like arguing with arrogant, childish people.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 21:18:37 2011 No.7702298 >>7702289 >And dude, Gensokyo isn't ALL of the above ground you know? It is all of the aboveground that Okuu can access. She cannot breach the Great Boundary any more than anyone else (not named Yukari) can.

>>	Necrobrotent Fri Aug 5 21:20:07 2011 No.7702302 File: 1.24 MB, 2894x2039, 7413944.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7702263 Crimson moon was a dude. I know that much.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 21:21:07 2011 No.7702307 >discussing touhou plot

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 21:22:38 2011 No.7702308

>>7702290
I can't do that, because if I could, I would have already posted it at the beginning of this argument and none of this shit would have happened, it wouldn't even be called an argument, just a contradiction. You don't have one either, hence, we are arguing using evidence to proof our points, otherwise it wouldn't be called ARGUMENT.

I'm using evidence that common sense would dictate that they shouldn't happen, here's two off the top of my head that haven't been contradicted yet: Okuu using danmaku despite wanting to conquer the _above ground_ regardless of whether Gensokyo is in it or not and Byakuren who shouldn't have known anything about danmaku or anything related to Gensokyo for millenia yet she uses spellcards and follows the spellcard rules without any question.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 21:26:38 2011 No.7702317

>>7702298
Hell applies to every realm, not just Gensokyo. The above ground constitutes Earth, which has Gensokyo in it, but that doesn't mean that if you go upwards from Hell you're gonna end up in Gensokyo.

And even if for some reason every way out of hell ends up in Gensokyo, killing Reimu (which is what we are discussing) would just end up removing the annoying barrier and as bonus, kill everything that could possibly stop her.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 21:31:08 2011 No.7702327

>I'm using evidence that common sense would dictate that they shouldn't happen
Then we are at an impasse. Like >>7702203 said, neither side can be proven right.

You're logic boils down to fanwank and speculation, neither of which have any place in canon.

>>	Youmu Konpaku !MyonHUTINA Fri Aug 5 21:31:37 2011 No.7702326 >At the risk of starting a powerlevel thread >here's a question that's the definition of powerlevel arguments You really didn't think that one through, did you.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 21:47:09 2011 No.7702370

>>7702327
Actually, it mostly boils down to the fact that a Touhou argument in /jp/ will never be solved unless ZUN comes in and directly proves someone's point.

And no, my evidence isn't just speculation, it has base (albeit one without a phrase that outright proves my point), I'm also using common sense (and don't pull that Sanae proverb bullcrap because Kanako herself dismissed that in WaHH, not like it would matter anyhow).

If you still can't refute my points, we have this: Everybody who aren't the moonbitches only feel like using the spellcard rules, even if it means losing a human snack and starving to death. The spellcard rules have only been partially broken as it states that no physical contact should be made despite Touhous bitchslapping each other in the fighting games, whether or not this is how a spellcard duel could be arranged may be up for debate (but don't argue with me mind you).

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:05:13 2011 No.7702422 >>7702370 >If you still can't refute my points And you can't refute the ones posted in this thread without speculation and 'logic' either. Your first sentence was good, you should have stopped there as the rest of your post serves no purpose.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:11:13 2011 No.7702441

>>7702158
>Well, the other alternative is to kill Arc

She can't. During the moon Arcueid has perfect immortality. She is completely immune to conceptual destruction .

>Considering it takes a bit for her to regenerate

Remember Tsukihime? During the full moon, Roa could regenerate from the ankles in "a few" seconds, and his ankles could stilll move around while regenerating. For Arcueid, it wouldn't take "a bit" to regenerate, it would take "an instant", this is of course assuming Flan can even destroy her body. But even if she can she'll have a mass of regenerating organs and a bunch of limbs trying to rip her apart.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:14:14 2011 No.7702456

>>7702441
>this is of course assuming Flan can even destroy her body
Considering that other TYPEs have been disabled this way, I'd say it's a safe bet.
Destroying a TYPE's body by brute-force may not kill it, but force it to take time to regenerate. There's no indication that it takes a second to regenerate; furthermore, TYPE have been known to die from destroying their bodies.

Arc shouldn't be any different.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:15:15 2011 No.7702464 >>7702441 >She is completely immune to conceptual destruction . But not physical destruction, which is what I was referring to.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:16:15 2011 No.7702468

>>7702317
Not the guy your arguing with but anyways.

1) Leaving aside for a moment the Okuu thing, let's think about the moonbitches. In SSiB there's a part where one of the princesses (can't remember which) is in Gensokyo (In the Bamboo Forest IIRC) with Yukari and threatens to basically nuke Gensokyo and, based on Yukari's reaction, it is safe to assume that she could do it if she wanted. Also, there's the whole "this is danmaku, this is how shit gets done 'round here" thing that has already been mentioned.

2) Coming back to Okuu for a moment, let's read her dialogue with Reimu:
"Once I beat you, I'm going to go above ground to test out this power of mine. Hohoho, that pathetic place will be reborn as a new Blazing Hell!"
See, she wants to coquer the land above, not destroy it. Even if destroying Gensokyo by killing Reimu and conquering what's left was easier, Okuu isn't exactly a great schemer like, say, Yukari. She's just a bird that swallowed a god.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:16:16 2011 No.7702471 File: 103 KB, 905x666, 1300050780239.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Who cares, Arc is the cutest and Flan is absolute shit.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:19:45 2011 No.7702481

>>7702422
How else would I refute other's points?

Thing is, my points refute yours, yours haven't refuted mine yet, I haven't exactly proved my whole point yet (I can't) but I have the unmistakeable points that lead to proving my argument. I can't say for others whether that means anything for them but it does for me.

Also, don't ever use ''now show me where did X Touhou/ZUN said *your argument here*'', especially not in the midst of the argument, because it's weak and it shows desperation, not to mention it's pretty senseless as I said in the previous post.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:19:45 2011 No.7702483

>>7702464

Physical destruction is relatively meaningless without a conceptual weapon to prevent regeneration.

Example: Black Barrel, which enforces a "lifespan" on things without lifespans
Harpe, which denies the possibility of regeneration
Gae Buidhe, which deals damage to "max HP" (negating the concept of "healing the damage")

Otherwise she just regenerates.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:21:14 2011 No.7702490

As much as I prefer Touhou to Type-Moon I have to admit that Flandre vs Arc would end up in Arc winning because Flandre can only fight at night (she's a vampire) and Arc is invincible at night. Now, if there was some way to allow Flan to fight during the day (like, say, the scarlet mist from EoSD) then maybe she could win by killing Arc a few times in a row.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:26:15 2011 No.7702508 >>7702483 >Otherwise she just regenerates. Yes, I already addressed this in my post. Thank you for being illiterate. Also, it's implied that full physical destruction can destroy a TYPE. See: Pluto and Saturn.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:26:17 2011 No.7702510

You guys are overthinking this. Byakuren, fresh out of Makai, knows how to use spell cards, has a whole lot of them prepared, and agrees to duel with them. Werid, because neither Makai nor Japan circa 1200 had spell cards.

There are a variety of explanations for this ranging from her hearing about it while sealed to inventing the cards on the spot but the real reason and the only one that really matters is that everybody in Touhou 6-11 used spell cards and therefore everybody in 12 is going to use them too.

The end.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:27:17 2011 No.7702512

>>7702456
1. Arcueid isn't a Type, so you can't compare her with them.
2. Even if she were, she is in her homeground.
3. In Notes Types weren't in their homeground. Seeing as how Arc has lines during the day, it's safe to say that she'll be completely killable outside of Earth's ground.
4. Types don't have a concept of death because their death differs from those of Earth lifeforms.

>There's no indication that it takes a second to regenerate

It took Roa a few seconds to regenerate from just the ankles, and Roa has merely a portion of Arc's power. For Arc herself it would much faster.

Also don't forget that Arc gains resistance to abilities used once.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:28:47 2011 No.7702525

>>7702508

Pluto is implied to be still alive, just scattered across the globe in a fine mist. And probably quite irate at that.

Saturn was somewhat grazed by Black Barrel (or did Gun God miss entirely? I forget) before being chopped at by Slash Emperor, a weapon we've never had completely defined. It does the world-splitty "truth" thingy that Enuma Elish does all the time. It's frikken magic.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:30:47 2011 No.7702530

>>7702512
>1. Arcueid isn't a Type, so you can't compare her with them.
She is for all intents and purposes, a TYPE. Unless you consider her weakened form, which is not the case here.

>3. In Notes Types weren't in their homeground.
This matters how? The connection to the planets are still there. If they can be killed because of this, I need a citation.
Furthermore, 100% Crimson Moon Arc shouldn't even have lines during the day.

>4. Types don't have a concept of death because their death differs from those of Earth lifeforms.
That didn't stop them from being annihilated.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:31:48 2011 No.7702535 >>7702525 >"truth" thingy that Enuma Elish does all the time. [Citation Needed] SE has never been stated to have Ea's unique property. Even then, we're not sure if said property could even a kill a TYPE that isn't Arc.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:36:52 2011 No.7702555
File: 162 KB, 792x1159, charactermaterial30qd7.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>7702535

>[Citation Needed]

It's the Character Material page after this one which I do not have on me.

It cuts away at the "truth" of the world just by being there.

Considering it's what split Type-Jupiter's core and made it go supernova, it either can successfully kill a Type or wreck it beyond regeneration.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:36:52 2011 No.7702559

>>7702510
She couldn't have done that because she was sealed without contact for millenia, nobody could have entered there unless they had the UFOs/whatever they were, which only started appearing during Touhou 12.

The invention of the cards aren't neccessarily something that takes time, but PMiSS mentioned that Reimu is the one who will aid you in creating and organizing new ones. Same as how some humans/youkai knew how to shoot danmaku despite never using it before (the former to defend themselves from being eaten).

Either way, no proof means your argument is nothing.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:38:21 2011 No.7702565 >>7702559 Everybody in Touhou 12 uses spell cards because everybody in Touhou 6-11 used spell cards and ZUN is going to keep it that way in the foreseeable future. What part of my argument is "nothing"?

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:39:51 2011 No.7702574 >>7702471 Go fuck yourself.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:40:20 2011 No.7702575

>>7702555
>It cuts away at the "truth" of the world just by being there.
That's nothing like Ea then; SE only shows the world when it was still alive, ie. revealing the blue sky. Ea worked by forcing the user back into a time before Gaia existed so if anything, they're completely incompatible.

>Considering it's what split Type-Jupiter's core and made it go supernova
No proof of whether or not this was Ado Adem just blowing it up or the ability of SE. Jupiter, Pluto, and Saturn were all destroyed physically and there's nothing indicating it was because of some arcane concept, stop fanwanking.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:41:51 2011 No.7702585

>>7702530
>She is for all intents and purposes, a TYPE

But she has never been stated to be one. She is a fairy, fairies aren't made from stardust/Gin like the Types.

>This matters how? The connection to the planets are still there

Types aren't just connected to their planet, they ARE their planets, the literal thing. This is different from Arc, as she is the planet's guardian, not the planet itself.

>100% Crimson Moon Arc shouldn't even have lines during the day.

This is fanwank. Arc herself stated in Tsukihime that although she doesn't have a concept of death during the night, she has one during the day. Nothing suggests that this changes when she is not using a portion of her power to supress her bloodlust, since that power is still there within her body, she just can't use it form combat. Arc is an incomplete existence without the moon regardless if she is using power to supress her bloodlust or not.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:43:21 2011 No.7702586 Type Moon is boring, Touhou is fun

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:44:52 2011 No.7702588

>>7702575

>and there's nothing indicating it was because of some arcane concept, stop fanwanking.

To be fair, it's actually indicated that all of them are still alive in their own ways.
>Beings that don't mix well with the (common sense) rules of this planet; no mind, no concepts comparable with "death", hence "destroyed" onces haven't truly "died". Will continue to operate until objective is complete.
Venus even showed itself as V/V.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:47:52 2011 No.7702596

I know very little about either character, but it seems like they're both vampires who have lived a long time. Except one was turned when she was ~18, the other at ~10 yo. A bigger body is more powerful, but a smaller one can be more agile. Also they're both girls so they can easily get outside help. It doesn't help that Flan has been in hiding for a long time... She must have very little charisma

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:50:51 2011 No.7702603

>>7702585
>But she has never been stated to be one.
She's referred to as ARCHETYPE EARTH.
At 100%, she is essentially Crimson Moon.

>Types aren't just connected to their planet, they ARE their planets, the literal thing.
They are the physical manifestations of the planet's will. Arc is the physical manifestation of Gaia and the Moon, even if she is just an imitation. There's no reason why she doesn't work like the other TYPEs at full power. Furthermore, upon CM's reincarnation, she's becomes a full fledged TYPE anyways.

>Nothing suggests that this changes
Thanks for agreeing she isn't immortal then.

>>7702588
>To be fair, it's actually indicated that all of them are still alive in their own ways.
Hinted at, not stated. Even then, them being 'alive' in those states doesn't mean much since they can't directly act against Flan.

>Venus even showed itself as V/V.
Venus wasn't killed in the manner I was suggesting. Still waiting on the citation saying that SE has Ea's ability.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:52:22 2011 No.7702607 >>7702586 Type moon has waifu material, Touhou has bitches.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:55:23 2011 No.7702617 File: 406 KB, 650x923, 1289713088930.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7702607 You don't belong here.

>>	Necrobrotent Fri Aug 5 22:57:23 2011 No.7702620 File: 1.08 MB, 1748x1181, 8240407.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7702617 >>7702607

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 22:57:25 2011 No.7702621 >>7702586 >>7702607 One things for certain: you can get a hundred times as much mileage out of a Type Moon powerlevel thread than a Touhou one

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 23:00:23 2011 No.7702630 >>7702607 Type-Moon's waifu material is mediocre tier and have mega sluts. Touhou have cool and awesome bitches on top of having overwhelmingly more loli.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 23:00:55 2011 No.7702633

Touhouverse isn't that strong
Yukari only uses her gaps as a portal. True, if she can use them at its limit then she's the strongest of all, even breaks the 4th wall and kills every other universe in negative time. Too bad from PCB, IN and the fighting games she's a shit fuck.

Eirin can rival Yukari if she really is that smart and that old. Just my stupid opinion, a person that has superior knowledge and live more than 200000 years can't be weak. Too bad she is a shit fuck like Yukari.

Yuuka, who's supposed to acquired the "ultimate magic", created her own dimension (Dream world - Mugenkan), she is the master of nature and as strong as an oni physically, I'd say she's much stronger than Arcueid Archtype. Too bad she spends her life growing flowers and punches kids. A shit fuck.

Remilia can control fates, which is OP. And by controling one fate she will certainly affect others fate and even the universe's fate itself. However as everyone knew she lost to an armpit kid. A shit loli fuck.

Shinki, a female Lucifer, a goddess who's bored of this world and created her own. In my (again) stupid opinion she's the strongest Touhou, but fuantei made her his bitch. A shit fuck.

Alice's supposed to have the dark grimmoire, which contains ultimate magic (probably from Shinki or at least the same level which Yuuka's). But she doesn't want to go full force. A shit fuck.

Those are the only Touhous I can think of that can compete with other universes, but I'm surely a noob...

>>	Necrobrotent Fri Aug 5 23:00:55 2011 No.7702634 File: 292 KB, 1200x1600, 4959354.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7702621 POWERLEVEL THREADS ARE BAD.

>>	Necrobrotent Fri Aug 5 23:03:25 2011 No.7702636 File: 687 KB, 1000x708, 4319217.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7702630 well thats just like your opinion man.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 23:03:25 2011 No.7702637

>>7702603
>She's referred to as ARCHETYPE EARTH.

That might not be the same as Type.

>At 100%, she is essentially Crimson Moon.

No she isn't, they still have differet abilties; CM had a Knight Arm (possibly only in Notes) and Rainbow Eyes, and could make the moon fall. They are different entities, even if Arc is considered a perfect clone.

>There's no reason why she doesn't work like the other TYPEs at full power.

Like I said, Types are stated to be the planet itself. In Notes is stated that the strongest lifeform on a planet is the planet itself, Types are stated to be the strongest lifeform on a planet. Gun God even comments on how humanity was fighting against 8 planets. Also like I said, Arc is a fairy with a human body, so she doesn't have stardust in her like the Types.

>Thanks for agreeing she isn't immortal then

She's perfectly immortal during the night.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 23:07:25 2011 No.7702643 >>7702633 >shit fuck everywhere You sure know how to make yourself creditable.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 23:08:27 2011 No.7702646 Shouldn't we focus on just one pair? In this case Flan vs Arc?

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 23:08:27 2011 No.7702647

>>7702637
>That might not be the same as Type.

>Same in name, same in title, same in concept
>Not the same
[Citation_Fucking_Needed]

>No she isn't, they still have differet abilties
No, I mean that she becomes a full fledged TYPE. CM's plan seemed to be to create a vessel that had the powers of both planets that he could reincarnate under.

>Like I said, Types are stated to be the planet itself
And I already said how they are the manifestation of the planet's wills. According to you, once the TYPEs die, the planets will die. Too bad we weren't told whether or not the planets died once the TYPEs did eh? Fanwank and supposition, get that shit out of here.

>She's perfectly immortal during the night.
Then Flan can kill her during the day, nothing special.

Necrobrotent Fri Aug 5 23:12:55 2011 No.7702658
File: 213 KB, 618x877, 3071607.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>7702637
>>7702647
Guys we have less than a WOD corebook worth of information put together on the type moon universe, and nasu recedes his own canon every three months.

>>7702646
They'd have a tea party.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 23:13:25 2011 No.7702660

>>7702647
Also forgot to add before I head to bed,
>Also like I said, Arc is a fairy with a human body, so she doesn't have stardust in her like the Types.
Shouldn't make a difference. You're implying that beings with Grain in them somehow can't regenerate whereas Faeries can; that's an absurd claim and can't be backed up.
At the end of the day, the TYPEs we see in Notes are said to be the manifestation of the planet's wills, essentially being the planets themselves. This does not mean that they are the planet for reasons I have already addressed.

Your argument boils down to
>BUT ARC ISN'T LIKE THE OTHER TYPEs
I don't care, everything we've been shown in MB, Tsukihime, KT, and MBAA all point to her working exactly the same way as a TYPE does. Until you can get solid proof that her being different allows her to avoid being destroyed physically, you have no leg to stand on.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 23:14:25 2011 No.7702663 >>7702647 Remi and Flan can't go out in daytime, that's why they made the Red Mist. Arcueid on the other hand can be perfectly normal outside, even when she's weak as a kid after being stabbed by Shiki.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 23:17:56 2011 No.7702675 >>7702633 Eirin can be old and wise, she may have superior magic and combat skills but I don't think her ability allows her to be in the multiverse-league. Only Yukari, Shinki and maybe Yuuka, Remilia are there.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 23:19:56 2011 No.7702682

>>7702647
Archetype =/= Type. Also I already said how their body structures are different, Arc isn't made from stardust.

>No, I mean that she becomes a full fledged TYPE

Again, we don't know if Archetype is the same as Type.

>Too bad we weren't told whether or not the planets died once the TYPEs did eh?

Actually how do you know the Types died? Even Type Venus didn't die (I am talking about its original body). So who's to say that the Types weren't just put out of commission?

>Fanwank and supposition, get that shit out of here.

It's based on official statements.

>Then Flan can kill her during the day, nothing special

Flan is weak against sunlight. Also, Arc can still regenerate during the day, it'll just take longer. During the night she just cannot be destroyed, hence no lines and dots of death.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 23:22:57 2011 No.7702693 >>7702682 V.V wasn't the original body The original body was beaten and used for housing.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 23:26:00 2011 No.7702700 >>7702660 MB? Canon? Not on my watch!

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 23:26:30 2011 No.7702699

>>7702660
>You're implying that beings with Grain in them somehow can't regenerate whereas Faeries can

It isn't being a fairy what allows Arc to regenerate, but her vampire regeneration. Nothing suggests that Types have vampire regeneration.

>Until you can get solid proof that her being different allows her to avoid being destroyed physically

You do realize that Arc is completely killable outside of Earth, right? If the moon isn't visible she has a time of death. If Types are the same as Arc as you claim, then it makes sense for them to be killable outside of Earth, or at least less vulnerable than in their homeground.

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 23:27:29 2011 No.7702701 ORT.

>>	Necrobrotent Fri Aug 5 23:28:29 2011 No.7702704 File: 69 KB, 535x550, 17089598.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7702700 If superhero satsuki isn't allowed to be canon NOTHING IS.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 23:31:30 2011 No.7702709

>>7702682
>Archetype =/= Type.
It's too bad there's no noticeable differences.

>Also I already said how their body structures are different, Arc isn't made from stardust.
And I already said how that doesn't matter and if anything, it disproves your point.

>So who's to say that the Types weren't just put out of commission?
Because their physical bodies were all destroyed and they are inactive? There's nothing pointing to them having NOT died (except Pluto and Venus, but their deaths don't relate to what I was talking about and even then, it's speculation). You're saying that even though everything points to them dying, we aren't specifically told that they have died, so they must be alive! Absence of proof is not proof.

>It's based on official statements.
[Citation Needed] There's nothing saying they are the planets themselves (instead being manifestations) and I already explained how this is illogical.

>Also, Arc can still regenerate during the day, it'll just take longer.
Yes, we already went over this several dozen posts ago, please keep up.

Once again, your arguing comes down to
>What if?
That's not basis for discussion, so either pull out sources and hard facts or stop posting assumptions and extrapolations.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 23:34:31 2011 No.7702714

>>7702699
>but her vampire regeneration.
You're now claiming that having nothing to regenerate from still allows for regeneration. You know what's coming next:
[Citation Needed]

>You do realize that Arc is completely killable outside of Earth, right?
Can't tell if agreeing or disagreeing.

>then it makes sense for them to be killable outside of Earth
You have it backwards. Did you confuse yourself?

>>7702700
You know what I mean!

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 23:36:31 2011 No.7702721 You're all completely incorrect and I am the completely correct one! No one has proven me wrong; therefore, I am correct! Anyone who disagrees with me is a stupid, stinky idiot (which is a fact of the universe)! Such great arguments!

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 23:37:31 2011 No.7702723 >>7702693 Wasn't V.V a unique case anyways? It seems as if it wouldn't have worked if its body wasn't inhabited by humans.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 23:43:31 2011 No.7702731

>>7702700
Yeah because the words of a fan have more value than Nasu's words, right?

>>7702709

>it disproves your point.

How exactly? It proves she is different from Types.

>You're saying that even though everything points to them dying, we aren't specifically told that they have died, so they must be alive! Absence of proof is not proof

No, it's explicitly stated that they only died by Earth's standards, and how the concept of death of this planet doesn't apply to them. During her last conversation of Godo, V/V said that she was able to move already (her original body), but if she did so the outer shell of the wings will shatter, and billions of angels will destroy all life on the planet. Read the whole thing, Type Venus was just out of commission, who's to say it wasn't the same for the other Types?

>>	Anonymous Fri Aug 5 23:46:01 2011 No.7702744 >>7702107 Huh. Is Evolimit really that almighty powerful/hax to be grouped with all those there?

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 23:49:01 2011 No.7702752

>>7702731
>How exactly? It proves she is different from Types.
Read back on the grain entry. It makes no difference and if anything, puts her at a disadvantage.

>No, it's explicitly stated that they only died by Earth's standards
And by Earth's standards, death means that you are unable to act because your body is destroyed. It's a moot point because if Arc was killed this way, she would be unable to do anything, which is my entire point.

>Type Venus
You really need to stop bringing this up. I already said that she wasn't physically destroyed in the same way the other TYPEs were and it's pointless to compare how she died to what I was talking about. I feel like I'm talking to a kid, having to repeat the same things over and over.

I'll check in on this thread this morning and I hope you can bring something new to the table with supporting evidence and not your inferences.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 23:49:31 2011 No.7702751

>>7702714
>You're now claiming that having nothing to regenerate from still allows for regeneration

How do you know it doesn't? My guess is just as good as yours. Curse of Restoration reverses time itself. And even she doesn't, she just needs to use her power to recreate a small piece of her flesh to regenerate from there, considering is not the same kind of destruction as the MEoDP, it doesn't have super anti-healing conceptual properties.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 23:51:01 2011 No.7702756

>>7702751
>And even she doesn't, she just needs to use her power to recreate a small piece of her flesh
But how can she use her power if she's physically destroyed and there's nothing left? This implies omnipotence, which I doubt she has.

I don't recall a single scenario were a vampire was able to regenerate from nothing, not even a single cell without a third party.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 23:54:01 2011 No.7702763

>>7702752
>It's a moot point because if Arc was killed this way, she would be unable to do anything, which is my entire point

Except that she was already killed in a much worse way than this, yet she regenerated by recreating her body through Marble Phantasm anyway. Your point was already flawed since the beginning. I don't know why I am even wasting my time discussing with you.

Anonymous Fri Aug 5 23:59:35 2011 No.7702773

>>7702756
Wait what? What the hell? So you are saying that if Arc gets hit by an Excaliblast and her body gets atomised, then she will die for good? Are you serious?

For God's sake, it was already stated in Ciel's route that the only way to kill a True Ancestor is by using a "Conceptual Weapon" with the power to kill the world, even if her body is atomised she won't die. It was already stated that TAs cannot be killed by external factors.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 00:01:40 2011 No.7702777

>>7702763
>Except that she was already killed in a much worse way than this
How, with the MEoDP?
That's not the same thing as physically destroying your existence, just enforcing the concept of death that you abide by. As pointed out by V.V's case, this doesn't always work, which is why I suggested physical destruction. The TYPEs in Notes have been defeated by this, so you can't say it's less effective than the MEoDP.

>Your point was already flawed since the beginning. I don't know why I am even wasting my time discussing with you.
>I have no rebuttal aside from supposition and bullshit, so I'm just going to say your point makes no sense without sufficiently disproving it with a backhanded comment and call it a day

Good riddance, it's obvious you have nothing else to say.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 00:03:13 2011 No.7702781 File: 174 KB, 803x1157, Character Material_70.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7702089 I'm a touhoufag but I know to admit that Type Moon wins out in the powerlevel department. Image related, no single touhou could take it out.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 00:05:44 2011 No.7702785 >>7702773 She's not a normal TA, she's also a TYPE. Once reincarnated as CM, she's regarded as a TYPE first and foremost. Unless you want to talk about normal Arc, which wouldn't be able to defeat Flan anyways.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 00:06:11 2011 No.7702787

>>7702781
Touhou's ability is too vague and covered by danmaku.

If Yukari's ability really is "Manipulate the boundaries", nothing can stand a chance against her even if they're in another universe, or even us in outside the 4th wall. Too bad she's a lazy trolling lesbian.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 00:11:38 2011 No.7702797 >>7702787 The thing about Yukari though, is she is not even the strongest character in her own series. ZUN might of made her powers vague, but his extended stories shows she as limits and isn't omnipotent.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 00:13:09 2011 No.7702806

>>7702787
Even though Yukari appears to be the strongest touhou, sans dragons, her ability is not limitless. I was under the impression that she needed to understand what she was manipulating, so while she is very intelligent she probably wouldn't fully understand something like Crystal Valley or alternate universes. In a way her powers are limited in a way similar to the Shikis.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 00:18:10 2011 No.7702815

>>7702785
Oooh so you are saying that Arc using 70% of her power to control her bloodlust is completely different than 100% Arc? Based on what? What basis do you have to say that Arc at 100% (which is the one mentioned in OP's pic) is no longer a True Ancestor? Because you know, Ciel stated that TAs cannot be killed by external factors.

Sorry but your argument is flawed. This is ArcheType Earth's profile:

The Princess of the True Ancestors. Arcueid's true form.
That which shows her side as the touch of the planet as the True Ancestor of highest grade of purity.
Not an alter ego of Arcueid, but one and the same as the normal her.
This version of her temporarily borrowed this body.
For Arcueid (her body) to become this form, she must take back her stolen hair.

As you can see, she is still the same Arc, and still a TA. Your flawed assumption is that "since Arc is a Type (even though she is never stated to be one) she should be killable in the same way as the other Types". Even though she is stated to be a True Ancestor, even at full power.

Also, aside from using 70% of her physical and mental power to control her bloodlust, 30% Arc is no different than 100% Arc. She still lacks a concept of death during the night (as she stated in Tsukihime), so Flan will still be unable to kill her.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 00:26:43 2011 No.7702834

>>7702815
>Oooh so you are saying that Arc using 70% of her power to control her bloodlust is completely different than 100% Arc?
Because her conceptualization and subsequent creation was not the same as other TAs. Despite what Ciel says, there's been no indication of them being immortal unless killed with a conceptual weapon. CM doesn't reiterate this point either, and infodumps by characters have been known to be wrong (see: Rin).

Arc's existence is different from the rest also because she is one of two that can be reincarnated in by CM. Comparing her to a TA, which we don't know the true extent of, is a fallacy.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 00:40:16 2011 No.7702874 >>7702797 >>7702806 >limits >she needed to understand what she was manipulating, Is that true? I'm still learning my Touhou, so I need to ask for source or quotes so I can be educated.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 00:50:16 2011 No.7702898 File: 115 KB, 341x500, 1312596680698.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Yakumo Yukari here. Read this book so you can understand more about my ability before spitting nonsense.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 00:58:52 2011 No.7702915

>>7702874
Well, it's never been directly stated but it's very likely.
Now if, the fan theory about Yukari and Maribel being the same person is correct, or at least if Yukari's power works like Maribel's, then she can see all borders besides being able to manipulate them. This would mean that she can "instinctually" understand any border. Of course, all of this is pure speculation, as clear limits to touhou's abilities haven't been established in canon.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 01:03:03 2011 No.7702924 >>7702915 >Reads up on Maribel Hmmm. Interesting. Well, fan speculation still.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 01:03:03 2011 No.7702925

>>7702915
The limits are those of the spellcard rules. Depending on your ability, they only allow you (if you're in a battle) to use your ability as a danmaku representation (eg: Okuu uses danmaku suns instead of actual suns, Yuyuko uses butterflies etc).

However, every Touhou's ability might not apply to ''concepts'', eg: Miyako's ability to ''eat anything and everything'' doesn't mean that she can eat existence itself, or death, or life etc.

Regardless, I don't think Touhou is a series that could be listed in terms of powerlevels with exactitude, too much vague information and everybody has a chance of beating anyone (the biggest example is probably when Cirno, or Mystia if you will, managed to beat Shiki).

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 01:12:57 2011 No.7702943
File: 158 KB, 1204x867, 1267470573689.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>7702924
Yeah I know, but the bit at the end of Magical Astronomy is interesting. Maribel tries to travel to te moon using the method that Yukari uses in SSiB.

>>7702925
Well yeah, in-game each ability only has an aesthetic effect. However, outside of the game (in the manga, stories, etc.) they use their powers for many other things (Okuu powers the geyser station, Yukari travels to the moon, Suika does the whole "gather everyone to party hard" thing, etc.) so their powers aren't limited to danmaku exclusively.
I agree that some abilities (like Miyako's) don't necessarily apply to concepts, but at least we know Yukari's does (e.g. manipulating the border between fantasy and reality).
While it's true that everyone can beat anyone in Gensokyo, that's just because of the rules of danmaku. There are still tiers when talking about raw power and abilities. This chart, while old, is an example of that.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 01:16:55 2011 No.7702947 >>7702898 Sadly, this is not an actual book.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 01:42:58 2011 No.7703007

>>7702943
I meant that if you wanted to use your ability IN BATTLE, you'd have to portray it as danmaku.

And no, we cannot know anything of their powerlevel concerning non-danmaku, not even if we know their abilities and powers, because the only Touhous that have shown their non-spellcard-rule abilities are Reimu, Marisa, Yuka and the PC-98 cast, which, as shown, is pretty damn same as today right? Only that you can kill and all, it's still ''danmaku'' (bullet hell) after all.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 05:31:30 2011 No.7703579
File: 66 KB, 400x510, 1242161031804.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

This thread is still going on? God.

Did the "spellcard rules cannot be broken" fagnut ever explain how the fuck the compulsion is supposed to affect Byakuren and Okuu, when they are by his own words not fighting in Gensokyo, and according to him the compulsion should only work there (because otherwise SSiB by itself destroys all of his bullshit conjecture right there)?

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 05:40:30 2011 No.7703593

This is like asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. These fictional magical worlds might not even be compatible to be able to judge powerlevels within them - judging powerlevels within the same world can be difficult enough when you have circular situations like:
A can defeat B
B can defeat C
C can defeat A

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 10:26:03 2011 No.7704304

>>7702834
No, this is nothing more than your fanwank.

>Because her conceptualization and subsequent creation was not the same as other TAs

Proof? Can you prove it?

>Despite what Ciel says, there's been no indication of them being immortal unless killed with a conceptual weapon

Ciel hasn't been proven to be wrong, so we have no reason to assume what she is saying is false. She said that since they are part of the world, they will not die unless they are disconnected from the world. Unless you have proof that directly proves Ciel wrong, this is nothing more than your fanwank.

>CM doesn't reiterate this point either

CM comes from the moon, he is not a part of Earth. Arc was born on Earth, you cannot compare them.

>and infodumps by characters have been known to be wrong (see: Rin)

Rin speculates most of them time, but she doesn't really states things as fact that she isn't completely sure of. Unlike Ciel in this case.

>Arc's existence is different from the rest also because she is one of two that can be reincarnated in by CM.

No she isn't. Aside from being a perfect True Ancestor, she is no different than the rest. Being killable would make her heavily flawed in comparison to the other TA.

>Comparing her to a TA, which we don't know the true extent of, is a fallacy.

I am not comparing her to a TA, she IS a TA. For God's sake, it's ironic how you said that my entire argument relies only on assumption.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 10:36:05 2011 No.7704327 >>7702943 eiki is not "S tier"? i think it was implied she was actually ridiculously strong

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 10:51:06 2011 No.7704354
File: 153 KB, 656x518, crimson arcueid.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Crimson Moon is Arcueid is Crimson Moon.

All True Ancestors are the Crimson Moon.

It's just nature vs. nuture. Same being, different birth and circumstance.

You know the biggest thing about this fight? Mortality/destruction capability aside.

Flan would die before she could react. Something like 100% Arcueid would just be incomparably fast.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:01:06 2011 No.7704372 File: 132 KB, 500x500, 2390984.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Powerlevel discussions about touhou are retarded because they have never been clearly defined in official sources.

>>	Suigin !fKazami5bE Sat Aug 6 11:14:10 2011 No.7704395 Touhou wins.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:19:10 2011 No.7704405

Hey. Nasufags. Pardon me if this has already come up somewhere, but where exactly do you get your "stats" for 100% Arc from? In Tsukihime she was pretty unimpressive and weaksauce, and even if she was at 5% power or whatever, even twenty times that she would still be unimpressive. Even against other Type-Moon heavyweight characters like Hercules and Gilgamesh. I assume you've got something more you're basing all this on, so... what is it?

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:23:39 2011 No.7704413 >>7704405 She was unimpressive in tsukihime because she was mostly thinking about dick and playing damsel in distress to get Shiki to notice her.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:26:11 2011 No.7704425

>>7704405

At 5% power, she was collapsing over herself in death and bloodlust, and she was still batting off Nrvnqsr's familiars with finger twitches.

After regenerating to, what, 10% power? She used Marble Phantasm to blow a full vampirized SHIKI to his ankles.

Arcueid's true area of power is 30%, which is what she's supposed to be in Melty Blood. However, she doesn't take the events of Melty Blood seriously.

Really, because we don't see her in action, we're just going off Nasu's word.

But hey, that's more than what Touhou fans work off. Touhou fans just work on ZUN's description and see how wild a fantasy they can spin with it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:28:11 2011 No.7704430 >>7704405 Don't forget that she was killed by a timid, anemic Japanese high school student with a fruit knife, who had a crippling headache keeping him from thinking straight and was just acting on a whim.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:29:41 2011 No.7704431 File: 224 KB, 1400x787, preview408537dba7b5a38ff93892ce0ca58f59.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] This two win everyone in typemoon and touhou discuss.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:30:11 2011 No.7704433 >>7704431 They don't even exist in their own series retard

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:32:10 2011 No.7704435 File: 25 KB, 283x309, 1309006021272.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7704433 >> This guy thinks Arcueid Flandre really exist

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:33:41 2011 No.7704437

>>7704425
>Touhou fans just work on ZUN's description and see how wild a fantasy they can spin with it.

There are little bits of canon here and there that give a picture of what they can do. Not as many as in Typeverse, as Zun hasn't shounen'd up his series as much, but kindly don't pretend it's not there. For example

>>7704354
>Flan would die before she could react. Something like 100% Arcueid would just be incomparably fast.

...touhoes aren't exactly slow. In SSiB (canon source, even though I wish it weren't because it gave use the Watatsukis), Remilia, Flandre's sister, circled the moon in a blink of an eye, for laughs. Kaguya's reaction speed was stated by Zun to be in the femtosecond range, and Sakuya stopped lightning mid-air. They're not slow, these ladies.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:34:11 2011 No.7704441 >>7704435 They exist in their own series at least.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:35:11 2011 No.7704443

>>7704430

Height of noon, when Arcueid is at her weakest, being ambushed by a bloodline assassin with peak human performance equipped with an ancient arcane power unknown to the world since the time of the celtic gods who slipped in and attacked her in the same moment she opened her door.

She had no reason to be on guard and the gargantuan coincidence of the event made her shed a tear in its beauty after the fact.

You call him "timid and anemic" but Shiki's body is strong and athletic, the Nanaya's build is near the top percentage of (modern) human performance.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:36:11 2011 No.7704447

>>7704405
Oh God newfags are so annoying.

>In Tsukihime she was pretty unimpressive and weaksauce

She had to use 80% of her power to recreate her body and conceptual structure from scratch. That feat already proves that she is not unimpressive and weaksauce.

>and even if she was at 5% power or whatever, even twenty times that she would still be unimpressive

Most of the time she was at 1%, if not less. She lost 80% of her power, that left her with 20%, but she needs to use 70% of her power to control her bloodlust, but she only has 20%. So the power she was using around Tsukihime was very close to 0%. This is why Nrvnqsr stated that she was even weaker than a Dead.

Also, remember how it was stated that Nrvnqsr's lions and leopards were shattered the asphalt while running? And that his lions could destroy cars, while his grizzly bear could cut a tank in half? Yet Arc ripped them all apart as if they were nothing, even though she was even weaker than a Dead? That's because she adjusts her powerlevel to 1+ above her oppponent, so even while weaked she can still beat a strong opponent, she just got tired because she was still hadn't fully recovere, even though she has unlimited power, since Shiki destroyed her conceptual structure, her back up was being greatly hindered.

Also she wasn't unimpressive in Ciel's route. Even when weakened, she was moving at supersonic speed in that battle, as Shiki stated that her speed wasn't something her could track with his eyes, so he could only see a white blur. And after she raised her powerlevel and defeated Ciel in two hits, Shiki stated that her speed was akin to an invisible canon shell. So that's already supersonic and hypersonic speed feats.

Also, Nasu stated in an interview that base 30% Arc has the stats of 2 Servants. So 100% Arc has the power of around 7 (not factoring on the power Roa stole from her).

http://tatari.byethost33.com/fuyuki/totallyunofficialpowerrankings.htm

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:36:42 2011 No.7704448 wriggle can beat any1 cus she can control bugs and there s like all kinds of time controlling multidimesnsional reality distorting insects and shes the strongest tohu

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:37:41 2011 No.7704453

>>7704437

>In SSiB (canon source,

SSIB is fucking second-hand canon. ZUN gave Aki Eda a story and let her run the fuck free.

>Kaguya's reaction speed was stated by Zun to be in the femtosecond range

That's the power of eternity (eternity = instant = eternity), not a crazy vampire girl.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:38:42 2011 No.7704455 File: 158 KB, 648x648, Bernkastel_derp_face_by_redroseneko.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7704441 Witch does exist,you cannot see her without love.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:39:42 2011 No.7704456

Why do you take this powerlevel bullshit so seriously?
It's what I can't understand with TM fags.
Been years since I saw the same arguments again and again and again and it's always like you are debating important thesis you put all your soul into and shits.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:40:41 2011 No.7704458 >>7704453 >ZUN gave Aki Eda a story Yeah, he WROTE it. It's canon like it or not.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:41:42 2011 No.7704460

>>7704425
>After regenerating to, what, 10% power? She used Marble Phantasm to blow a full vampirized SHIKI to his ankles.

She wasn't at 10%, 10% of her power is already almost Servant level. She was way weaker than that since her bloodlust got stronger.

>Arcueid's true area of power is 30%, which is what she's supposed to be in Melty Blood.

No, in MB she is around 50% of power since she got back the power Roa stole from her.

>>7704430
Cool story. Shiki killed her with a suprise attack, and she was surprised that a human would dare to attack her for no reason, let alone kill her. She realised that he was a normal human, which is why she was shocked.

Ironically, only a normal human could pull that off considering she would have realised if a powerful above human entity would have the one who knocked on her door.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:41:42 2011 No.7704462

>>7704458

He wrote the story, he didn't write every event.

He probably wrote things like "Remilia mocks Lunarians" as a script and Aki Eda took that to mean "she moves blindingly fast to taunt them".

Or things like that.

Have I made it clear I haven't read SSiB?

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:42:42 2011 No.7704463 I did not read the thread, but I want to say that anyone writing ``ZUN'' with lowercase letters should shut up immediately.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:44:12 2011 No.7704465 >>7704456 Because MY CHARACTER MUST WIN. That proves my series is SUPERIOR. The superior series has STRONGER CHARACTERS. Really, that's what this is all about.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:45:12 2011 No.7704469 >>7704462 >i reject your canon and substitute with bullshit i made up! Whatever you say homes.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:45:14 2011 No.7704472 >>7704463 Funny, I think the opposite.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:45:43 2011 No.7704470 File: 453 KB, 160x120, 1312242541031.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >164 posts and 24 image replies omitted. Click Reply to view You can't fucking be serious.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:45:43 2011 No.7704471 >>7704465 I love both series and I don't see anything to implicate that Flandre would beat 100% Arc. In fact I think Touhou has better characters, music, and art design. But inferior story. And story wise, Arc is boss while Flandre is silly.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:46:14 2011 No.7704474 >>7704469 You say canon, I say second hand canon. ZUN's word is law. And actually, ZUN has said his works should be considered on the level of any other doujinshi. TOUHOU CANON IS NOT CANON

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:49:43 2011 No.7704479
File: 5 KB, 239x258, 1307555744884.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>7704447
>Also, remember how it was stated that Nrvnqsr's lions and leopards were shattered the asphalt while running? And that his lions could destroy cars, while his grizzly bear could cut a tank in half? Yet Arc ripped them all apart as if they were nothing

Cannon fodder. Nrvrvrwrwrqr was utterly unimpressive, and so was Tsukihime-Arc. Flandre would snuff both of them at the same time, one per hand.

Nasuverse does have actually impressive, threatening characters. Arc and Nqzqzqzq are not among them. They looked like average Spider-Man villains.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:51:14 2011 No.7704482 >>7704474 What are you even talking about?

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:51:14 2011 No.7704483

>>7704471
>I love both series and I don't see anything to implicate that Flandre would beat 100% Arc.

Ability to destroy anything she wants is in my book a pretty good implication of that.

Of course if Flandre's "eyes" vanish the same way Shiki's dots and lines did, then it would be a real fight.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:54:16 2011 No.7704484 >>7704474 IOSYS music videos are canon instead.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:59:18 2011 No.7704493

>>7704474
ZUN is the last person I want to talk to when it comes to Touhou power level. I'm under an impression that he doesn't give a fuck about it. He gave them a hat, an ability, a danmaku pattern and a theme music, that's it. He doesn't care if they should be logically stronger or weaker than anyone. His work is the game, sell it and he's done. Leaving you all behind killing each others to ensure your waifu is the strongest.

So let's ignore that bastard altogether.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 11:59:47 2011 No.7704495 File: 140 KB, 241x491, thatguyfrombleach.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] A powerlevel discussion between these two series is pointless anyway, seeing as Sasuke could beat anybody from either one.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:03:18 2011 No.7704498
File: 36 KB, 803x603, zelretch.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>7704495

You know, Type-Moon has the one weapon that can pierce invincible plot armor.

Kaleidoscope: in SOME universe, you're fucking losing.

There's 4 living Shirous and 41 dead Shirous. Do the math!

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:04:48 2011 No.7704503
File: 617 KB, 770x1100, Arcueid's true power.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>7704479
0/10. You're trolling, but ok.

>Cannon fodder. Nrvrvrwrwrqr was utterly unimpressive, and so was Tsukihime-Arc.

Nrvnqsr is one of the strongest DAA, and he can fight on par with Servants. Arcueid was utterly weakened, and was close to 0% of her power.

You obviously didn't bother to read the Nasu's interview, but he clearly states that 30% Arc can beat most Servants in a one-on-one fight. 100% Arc is on a whole different level.

>Flandre would snuff both of them at the same time, one per hand.

No, Archetype Earth doesn't have a concept of death during the night, she is utterly immortal. So Flan can't do anything against her.

>Nasuverse does have actually impressive, threatening characters. Arc and Nqzqzqzq are not among them

Almost 0% Arc, you mean.

>They looked like average Spider-Man villains.

0/10. Keep trolling.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:04:48 2011 No.7704504

>>7704304
>Proof? Can you prove it?
Considering that Tsukihime says outright she and possibly Altrouge are the only 'correct' clones of CM, yes, she is different from the others. This is a tangent though.

>this is nothing more than your fanwank.
Perhaps it is, but until I see a situation that tests the claims of Ciel, I am not expecting much. We're talking about a person who goes back on his canon twice a year and characters speaking about things they have no first hand experience with. I'll concede this point if you can show me proof.

>CM comes from the moon, he is not a part of Earth. Arc was born on Earth, you cannot compare them.
Character Material.

>but she doesn't really states things as fact that she isn't completely sure of.
That's wrong though. Refer to above for Ciel.

>Aside from being a perfect True Ancestor, she is no different than the rest.
I already said why this is false.

I suppose it is true that my entire argument hinges on the possibility of whether or not she can regenerate from nothing, but the very concept is so absurd and not solidly proven that I don't believe it. Has there ever been a case of a TA regenerating from having their entire bodies destroyed down to the last quark? Has Ciel ever seen this, or is she speaking from second hand information? Why is this aspect of the TA not stated anywhere else but by Ciel, it's an important tidbit that delves into the powers of the TAs.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:06:48 2011 No.7704510 >>7704327 Yeah, the chart is old and wrong in some areas. The Yama is probably the most powerful since Yukari admitted that Yuyuko, Reimu and herself together were still no match for Eiki.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:07:19 2011 No.7704513 >>7704510 Yukari never explained herself by what she meant by "no match".

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:08:19 2011 No.7704517 >>7704513 That's the worst nitpick I ever heard.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:09:20 2011 No.7704519

>>7704474
>You say canon, I say second hand canon.

>Comes from Zun
>Green-lighted by him
>Has his approval in its final form
>LOLOLOLOOL DOESNT COUNT ITS CANON BUT ITS NOT CANON

You actually just made a post that looked like it had a point, but in reality was absolutely pointless and just non sequitur. Impressive.

That said, I do agree that Touhou power levels are very under developed, even moreso than TM. It's one of the reasons why there are rarely any Touhou power level threads and I like it that way; at least it won't become cancer like this thread.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:10:20 2011 No.7704524

>>7704504

>Considering that Tsukihime says outright she and possibly Altrouge are the only 'correct' clones of CM

Altrouge is not even a True Ancestor, this is illogical.

Just sayin'.
Altrouge was born from the union of a True Ancestor and Dead Apostle. What she herself really is, is unknown.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:10:51 2011 No.7704522

>>7704503
>she is utterly immortal

Says who? Flandre can supposedly destroy ANYTHING, no exceptions.

You're comparing the sword that can cut through anything to the shield that can't be pierced by anything. Either one could theoretically win or lose, but the debate itself is pointless.

I guess that goes for the whole thread though.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:11:51 2011 No.7704526

>>7704517
But true. Let's say Eiki, as a Yama, has the virtue and pressure that can stun you and lecture you for years, you'd be no match for her even if you're much stronger than her. Like a strong guy will still be no match to his angry grandfather. (provided he knows how to behave)

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:13:22 2011 No.7704532 >>7704498 >weapon Those don't even work on him in the first place.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:14:53 2011 No.7704534

Reposting, because I think this bears repeating:

>Why do you take this powerlevel bullshit so seriously?
>It's what I can't understand with TM fags.
>Been years since I saw the same arguments again and again and again and it's always like you are debating important thesis you put all your soul into and shits.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:15:23 2011 No.7704537 Sasuke loses by default. Please, don't even bring him up.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:17:23 2011 No.7704538 >>7704537 >by default Because he's not part of the series being discussed, or because you can't accept that he could beat anyone in said series?

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:17:54 2011 No.7704540 >>7704526 Statements should be taken at face value unless there's a good reason to believe otherwise. There's no need to resort to face to a stretch of an interpretation when the obvious one works.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:18:54 2011 No.7704542 >>7704522 What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object? A loud noise and a headache for everybody!

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:19:54 2011 No.7704544 File: 720 KB, 1600x1200, 1254008570013.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I bet Caster would be good at spell cards

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:21:25 2011 No.7704548 >>7704544 I think she'd be terrible. She only fires linear, boring lasers all over. She's like a worse Marisa. And she sucks at dodging.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:21:56 2011 No.7704550 But guys, which universe has the most intelligent character? How about the fastest (teleportation doesn't count)?

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:22:56 2011 No.7704555

>>7704504
>Considering that Tsukihime says outright she and possibly Altrouge are the only 'correct' clones of CM

Wrong, you cannot compare her with Altrouge. Alt is an hybrid that was born from a human and a TA, and she cannot even use MP, so she is not a proper TA.

Arc on the other hand not only is stated to be a TA, but the perfect one. Being killable, even though all the other TA aren't, would make her heavily flawed as a TA. Also, in KT, Arc is stated to be CM's true successor, unlike Alt.

>Perhaps it is, but until I see a situation that tests the claims of Ciel

What, this is Devil's Proof on your part. In this case the burden of proof is on you, show me something that directly contradicts Ciel's statements.

>We're talking about a person who goes back on his canon twice a year and characters speaking about things they have no first hand experience with

Yet this statement hasn't been contradicted, let alone disproven. Are we going to assume that stated in TM games is false unless proven otherwise?

>Character Material

And? You do realize CM comes from the moon, right? He isn't the same as the other TA.

>That's wrong though. Refer to above for Ciel.

Ciel hasn't been proven wrong, nor contradicted.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:23:56 2011 No.7704560

>>7704504
>I already said why this is false

Says you, even though nothing suggests she is different, aside from being the perfect TA. Your statement saying that Arc is mortal would make her heavily flawed as a TA.

>I suppose it is true that my entire argument hinges on the possibility of whether or not she can regenerate from nothing, but the very concept is so absurd and not solidly proven that I don't believe it

It was stated that she can't be killed by external factors, so it's possible. If you don't believe it, well too bad, go argue with Nasu.

>Has there ever been a case of a TA regenerating from having their entire bodies destroyed down to the last quark?

The Church specializes in vampire hunting, so you know more than the Nasuverse Church?

>Has Ciel ever seen this, or is she speaking from second hand information?

Ciel has Roa's knowledge. Probably no human in the world knows about the TAs more than Roa himself.

>Why is this aspect of the TA not stated anywhere else but by Ciel, it's an important tidbit that delves into the powers of the TAs.

Because since Ciel explained it, there is no reason to explain it again.

Like I said, you're going against Nasu's words. In this case the burden of proof is on you.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:23:59 2011 No.7704561

>>7704550

>But guys, which universe has the most intelligent character?

The only intelligent Touhou character I can think of is Eirin, an unknowable sage who we can't gauge properly. She could just be nominally wise, she could be a complete supergenius.

>How about the fastest (teleportation doesn't count)?

In reaction time, Kaguya takes the cake. In movement speed, I'd say it's hard to judge, especially with teleportation not counting.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:29:01 2011 No.7704573

>>7704555
>Wrong, you cannot compare her with Altrouge
That's why I said possibly, doesn't change the fact that she's fundamentally different from the other TAs.

>What, this is Devil's Proof on your part.
Of course, but considering that Ciel isn't the end all of info dumps, I beg to differ. There have been numerous instances of claims being wrong in both F/SN and KnT and this shouldn't be treated differently. You can claim her words as canon all you want, but until there is more concrete proof, I won't take it as 100% true. You can say that you've 'won', but I don't really care because of circumstances I stated earlier.

>Are we going to assume that stated in TM games is false unless proven otherwise?
Yes, that's how we got over the Ea shit was it not?

>And?
And you're not understanding my statement. I'm not referring to CM in anyway.

>Ciel hasn't been proven wrong, nor contradicted.
See above.

Like I said, the concept of one regenerating from nothing is a grandiose claim. It's hard to take it at face value from anyone other than Arc herself or if not supplemented with physical evidence. There's really no reference to any TA being able to do this.

I mean, Ryougi also said Arc had limitless power as well, so should we all assume that she is universally omnipotent now?

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:29:01 2011 No.7704576 >>7704526 I do get sort of what you're saying, something along the lines of Yukari honoring the Yama for her authority and elevated position and saying it out of respect or deference, I guess. But I do think the Yama has the power to back it up.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:29:01 2011 No.7704578 >>7704561 Patchouli and Yukari are also exceptionally smart. If we go by raw intelligence (not wisdom), Eirin or Patchy would probably win. Yukari is a lot wiser though.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:47:28 2011 No.7704619 >>7704503 Arc isn't immortal, what the fuck are you talking about? The earth dies = she dies And the previous CM was killed you know.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:52:58 2011 No.7704628

>>7704573
>That's why I said possibly, doesn't change the fact that she's fundamentally different from the other TAs

Alt is, Arc isn't. Would you say that a human is fundamentally different from other humans just because said human is superior to average humans in every way, but still human? Of course not, if we assume that Arc is mortal, while all other TA aren't, then that'll make her heavily flawed as a TA. It'll be the same as a human having a lifespan of one year, even though that human is stated to be perfect.

>There have been numerous instances of claims being wrong in both F/SN and KnT and this shouldn't be treated differently

This is just your bias against Arcueid. Most of the time Nasu uses characters to dump info, so of course not all the info can be wrong. Once again, the burden of proof is on you.

>Yes, that's how we got over the Ea shit was it not?

If you are talking about the "Ea can destroy the world" claim. That was never stated, and Ea's power was always stated to be a little stronger than Excalibur (it's in the status screen).

>Like I said, the concept of one regenerating from nothing is a grandiose claim

Let me tell you why Arc wouldn't die even if her body is atomised. The soul in the Nasuverse is stated to be indestructible, however the human soul cannot endure the outside air, so it disperses once the vessel dies. And, although transformation into a DA makes the soul more resistant to dispersion (as stated in KT), the degradation cannot be stopped as long as the base his human; examples of this would be the DAA Stanrobe Calhin, which is stated to be a vagrant soul, and an invincible character (stated in Tokuhon), but even he will disperse one day.

Now, Arc is an spirit of nature, so it's only natural for her soul to be able to survive in the outside world in the same way a fish can survive in water. And since the soul is indestructible...

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:53:59 2011 No.7704631

>>7704573
>Ryougi also said Arc had limitless power as well

Ryougi said that Arc has no limits, not that the Earth has no limits, Arc's power comes from the Earth.

>>7704619
Under the moon she is immortal, which is why she has no concept of death. Whether you can remove her immortality with a CW or something is a different matter.

Also, the original CM was an alien that wasn't part of Earth. So stop comparing them.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 12:56:29 2011 No.7704636

>>7704631
You don't seem to know what immortal means.
She may be "difficult to kill" under the moon but being immortal means she can literally never die.
Kaguya is immortal, she is someone who will still live even after the end of time.
Arc even under the moon can be killed, if you destroy earth for example.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 13:01:00 2011 No.7704648 >>7704636 Oh no not you again.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 13:18:04 2011 No.7704680

>>7704628
>Alt is, Arc isn't.
Yes she is. There's a reason why she was made differently from the other TAs and why only she can be CM's vessel. Unless you're saying canon is wrong?

>This is just your bias against Arcueid.
Why? I don't go into the games taking everything at face value because half of them are retconned or proven wrong later, sometimes in the same game. If anything, you're the one biased towards Arc.

>That was never stated, and Ea's power was always stated to be a little stronger than Excalibur
Right, because infinite power is 'a little' stronger than Excalibur? Please.

>And since the soul is indestructible...
And since the body is...
Unless you're saying souls can think and act by themselves, in which case, you're saying Arc is omnipotent.

>>7704631
>Ryougi said that Arc has no limits, not that the Earth has no limits, Arc's power comes from the Earth.
So... you're saying the same thing as me.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 13:19:04 2011 No.7704685 >>7704648 No, he's right. Immortality is a permanent state, not a condition. We already had this discussion and everyone agreed that Arc is invincible in certain situations, not immortal (except White Ren, but he's a faggot).

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 13:30:34 2011 No.7704710

>>7704680
>Yes she is.

Once again, she is never stated to be different aside from being perfect. For this same reason she can only be CM's vessel, because she has the pefect body. You're ignoring my statements.

>I don't go into the games taking everything at face value because half of them are retconned or proven wrong later

But this isn't the case this time.

>If anything, you're the one biased towards Arc

Why? Because I am following Nasu's words?

>Right, because infinite power is 'a little' stronger than Excalibur?

That's because of it's anti-world concept. It's stated right there that it's power output is only a little greater than Excalibur. If it weren't for the anti-world concept, Ea would only be A++ like Excalibur.

>Unless you're saying souls can think and act by themselves, in which case, you're saying Arc is omnipotent

Stanrobe Calhin can act by himself, even though he is soul without a body. That doesn't make him omnipotent, just physically indestructible, there are conceptual weapons and abilities that can force a soul to return to Akasha (MEoDP, Seventh Holy Scripture, etc)

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 13:53:05 2011 No.7704775

>>7704576
Well, it also depends on what you mean by power.
If you mean raw physical strenght, then Suika, Yuugi, Yuuka and maybe Flandre (if you count her ability as a form of phyisical strenght) are the most powerful touhous.
If you mean the capacity to do awesome stuff by means of their abilities then it would be the likes of Yukari, Flandre and maybe Sakuya and the magicians who would be the most powerful.
If you mean "power" as in "they have powe over everyone because nobody dares mess with them" then the most powerful touhous would be Yukari, Reimu and Eiki. The first two keep Gensokyo existing and the third has the power to condemn any being that can die (which is everyone except Kaguya and Moukou) so no one with more than three brain cells would dare try to fuck her up. Yuyuko would also be in the top tiers of this classification.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 14:17:13 2011 No.7704856 >209 posts and 30 image replies omitted Never change, /jp/.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 14:21:13 2011 No.7704871

>>7704710
>You're ignoring my statements.
You're ignoring mine. I can play that way too.
>As the most powerful True Ancestor created to specifically hunt down the fallen True Ancestors
>This is the reason why the True Ancestors call Arcueid, who is considered the only successful clone of Crimson Moon, the princess of the True Ancestors.

>But this isn't the case this time.
>Because I say so

>Because I am following Nasu's words?
He hasn't spoken on the matter, only Ciel. I guess you could also say that Arc is now omnipotent with unlimited power and Ryougi is still stronger than her because she can warp the universe.

>That's because of it's anti-world concept.
Last I heard, STR is not an anti-world concept. You have a weird definition of the term.

>Stanrobe Calhin can act by himself
But can he remake his body out of nothing and physically affect the world with it? Poor comparison seeing as a being who can regenerate at will and who's soul will never die is essentially omnipotent. You're saying that Arc is like Sauron, and I don't think that's the case.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 14:49:48 2011 No.7704958

>>7704871
>You're ignoring mine. I can play that way too.

Except that unlike me, you're arguing against logic and Nasu himself.

>As the most powerful True Ancestor created to specifically hunt down the fallen True Ancestors

Stop bringing the TM wikia, please. If you want to prove your points cite the original material and side materials (Tokuhon, Tsukihime Blue/Black Books, etc) like me, or at least use fuyuki.

Regardless, it's still stated by Roa in KT that Arc was born naturally (although with the intetvention of the other TA). Nothing suggests that she was born, and she is completely different than the other TA, this is nothing more than your baseless assumption. And the statement you cited doesn't disprove this point.

>Because I say so

No, because canon material says so. When something is stated stated in the game, we have to accept it until proven otherwise, not the other way around.

>He hasn't spoken on the matter, only Ciel

No other human in the Nasuverse knows more than the TA than Ciel, since she as Roa's knowledge. Again we have no reason to assume she is wrong.

>Arc is now omnipotent with unlimited power and Ryougi is still stronger than her because she can warp the universe

Arc has no limits, but her power comes from Earth so she can only be as strong as Earth. And yes, Ryougi's power scope is much greater, since she isn't just limited to Earth, however unlike Arc she is limited by a human body.

>Last I heard, STR is not an anti-world concept. You have a weird definition of the term

I won't bother with this since it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

>But can he remake his body out of nothing and physically affect the world with it?

He cannot use MP.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 14:50:48 2011 No.7704961

>>7704871
>Poor comparison seeing as a being who can regenerate at will and who's soul will never die is essentially omnipotent

The TA race is stated to be perfect, aside from their bloodlust, they don't have lifespans, so the end for them is when they can't control their bloodlust anymore.

>and I don't think that's the case

Well too bad.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 14:56:18 2011 No.7704990

>>7704958
>you're arguing against logic and Nasu himself.
>Nasu himself
Haha no.

>Stop bringing the TM wikia, please.
First time it's brought up and it's correct in this instance. Are you suggesting everything on there is wrong?

>this is nothing more than your baseless assumption
Right, because the manner of her conception and her being the only candidate means she's no different from the other TAs. Stop ignoring this.

>When something is stated stated in the game,
Then Arc is omnipotent according to Ryougi and Ryougi can warp the universe at her will. Thanks for acknowledging that.

>Arc has no limits, but her power comes from Earth so she can only be as strong as Earth.
I like how this sentence contradicts itself all over the place. Please, you're making me laugh too hard.

>however unlike Arc she is limited by a human body.
[Citation Needed]
She can warp reality on a grand scale with no limitations. Got anything to disprove that?

>I won't bother with this since it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
So you admit you're wrong, thanks.

>He cannot use MP.
So bringing him up is moot then. Either do a straight comparison or none at all; you can't pick and choose abilities and state that everyone is the same. As it stands, there's no indication that Arc can act without a body. The only explanation is that she's omnipotent. Either way your argument loses credibility.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 14:59:18 2011 No.7705007

>>7704961
>The TA race is stated to be perfect, aside from their bloodlust, they don't have lifespans, so the end for them is when they can't control their bloodlust anymore.
I like how this sentence isn't saying anything to the point at hand. I'm saying Arc can't be compared to him and even then, he will die anyways.

>Well too bad.
Your knowledge of the Silmarillion and tLotR is astounding.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 15:19:53 2011 No.7705070

>>7704990
>Haha no

Yes Nasu wrote it.

>because the manner of her conception and her being the only candidate means she's no different from the other TAs

Nowhere is stated that her body structure, powers and capabilities are different from those of a TA. So yeah, again, the burden of proof is on you, show me were it says that her body, capabilities and powers are different from those of an ordinary TA. But you won't anyway, since she is stated to be the perfect TA, she can't lack things the other TAs have, otherwise she would be imperfect and unstable (like Alt).

>Then Arc is omnipotent according to Ryougi and Ryougi can warp the universe at her will

Both Arc and Ryougi have restritions, this was stated right there, which is why they came to the conclusion that Saber is the most practical one among them. Nice how you ignored this.

>I like how this sentence contradicts itself all over the place

No it doesn't really. Ryougi stated in that interview that Arc has no limits, not the Earth. It means the amount of power she can draw from Earth has no limits. I think you're taking this too literally.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 15:20:53 2011 No.7705074

>[Citation Needed]
>She can warp reality on a grand scale with no limitations

It's stated right there, in that Drama CD quote. Ryougi said; (referring to Arc) that woman is the one that has no limits, so that implies that she herself has limits. She might be able to warp the universe by messing around with cause and effect/creation, but that doesn't change the fact she has a human body.

>So bringing him up is moot then. Either do a straight comparison or none at all; you can't pick and choose abilities and state that everyone is the same

Why, he has a soul (well he is one), and Arc has a soul. Arc's soul won't die once it comes in contac with the outside air, while a DA soul is more resistant to dispersion than a human soul.

>there's no indication that Arc can act without a body

Uh, she recreated her body from scratch in Tsukihime. Her body was rendered useless by Shiki, so that already proves she can act without a body (since she created another one).

>The only explanation is that she's omnipotent

Omnipotent is someone that can do anything. Arc had to use 80% of her power to recreate her body, and was horribly weakened after that.

>Either way your argument loses credibility

You are the one that has no argument and is fanwanking. At least I am following canon statements. Your argument has no solid basis to stand on.

>I'm saying Arc can't be compared to him and even then, he will die anyways

Refer to above. We are talking about souls (one who's base was human, and one who is already a part of the world) here, so of course they can be compared.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 15:31:54 2011 No.7705097

>>7705070
>Yes Nasu wrote it.
So everything Nasu writes is instantly canon disregarding character knowledge and retcons. Sounds about right.

>Nowhere is stated that her body structure, powers and capabilities are different from those of a TA.
The fact that she is the true successor to CM and the only one capable of projecting the MB Millennium Castle is proof enough. Unless you think that all TAs can do this?

>this was stated right there
Right where? It's never stated that Ryougi has restrictions at all.

>I think you're taking this too literally.
Or you just like twisting words around. Arc is bound to Gaia and Gaia has limits; ergo, she has limits as well. If she doesn't have limits, she would be independent of being that does have limits. That's clear as day, I have no idea why you are having so much trouble understanding this.

>in that Drama CD quote.
I'm not sure why we're taking Drama CDs as canon now... but

>fact she has a human body.
And? She said she could do it in KnK and she demonstrated her powers by healing him. If she does have limits, then they must be irrelevant.

>while a DA soul is more resistant to dispersion than a human soul.
[Citation Needed]

>Uh, she recreated her body from scratch in Tsukihime.
But it wasn't completely destroyed. We're currently talking about whether or not she regenerate from just her soul, which implies omnipotence since she is effectively immortal with what you're saying.

>Arc had to use 80% of her power to recreate her body, and was horribly weakened after that.
You just claimed multiple times that her soul can never die and she can regenerate with no physical body left. Immortality with no limits sounds like omnipotence to me disregarding the fact that she clearly does have limits, I'm still not sure why you're arguing this.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 15:34:55 2011 No.7705105

>>7705097
>Field Too Long

>Your argument has no solid basis to stand on.
>Appeal to Popularity
>Proof by Assertion
Neither does yours friend, you're relying on just as much inferrences and fanwanking as anyone else here. No, twisting things out of context is not canon by the way.

>so of course they can be compared.
Refer to my posts, you're losing track of the argument.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 15:38:00 2011 No.7705118

>>7705105
>Both Arc and Ryougi have restritions, this was stated right there, which is why they came to the conclusion that Saber is the most practical one among them. Nice how you ignored this.
Going back to this for a second, it's clear that the characters in it don't understand the entire universe at best and at worst, it's not canon.

Ryougi said that she Arc has no limits and there's nothing indicating that she was referring to the amount of power drawn from Gaia. If there is, post the quote and we'll look it over. I'm pretty sure I've read it before and if you interpret it that way, then that's too bad since you have to be pretty desperate to twist those words around.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 16:02:25 2011 No.7705183

>>7705097
>So everything Nasu writes is instantly canon disregarding character knowledge and retcons

Again, I am repeating myself, not only Ciel has the most knowledge regarding TAs, but hasn't been proven wrong either. Are you saying that your words have more weight than Ciel's words? or that you know more about TAs than she does?

>The fact that she is the true successor to CM and the only one capable of projecting the MB Millennium Castle is proof enough

It just proves she is more perfect than the other TAs. She is still a copy of CM like all the other TA. Again, the perfect TA cannot lack things the other TAs have.

>Right where?

It's stated in a conversation between Saber, Arc and Ryougi in a Drama CD.

Arcueid: Ergh, so what about you Ryougi? Do you like the world of Fate?

Shiki: Not in particular, Mikiya isn't there. Sure my wishes will be granted but don't wishes get granted normally?
Arcueid: Uh, um, how direct.
Saber: Well, that would be because you're God to be blunt. You wouldn't know the pain of those without.
Shiki: Don't make such a stupid analogy. I'm nothing. The stupid woman over there doesn't have any limits. She can make a castle just by her imagination you know?
Arcueid: I've got a lot of restrictions too though. Oh, so it looks that way to you two, well, the most practical one is Saber though.

Both Arc and Ryougi have restrictions. And even if Ryougi doesn't she is still limited by a human body.

>If she doesn't have limits, she would be independent of being that does have limits

I know this, she is only as trong as Earth. I don't see why you are bringing things that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 16:03:54 2011 No.7705184 Great work guys, I almost have enough material to finish my paper fictional character powerlevels.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 16:04:24 2011 No.7705189

>>7705097
>If she does have limits, then they must be irrelevant

Having a human body is a limit. She isn't going to be moving around FTL.

>[Citation Needed]

It's in KT (CM Ten Nights of Dream). CM Arc had said that the human soul cannot endure the outside air, and that even transformation into a Dead Apostle won't halt the deterioration, but if you turn this statement over, wouldn't it mean that, while there is some degree of deterioration, Dead Apostle transformation will make the soul more resistant to dispersion?
Roa hit a brick wall as a human being in his research, and apparently became a Dead Apostle because he had no choice. It might be conceivable that this brick wall is the dispersing of the human soul during reincarnation, and that to solve it, he had to become a Dead Apostle.

>But it wasn't completely destroyed. We're currently talking about whether or not she regenerate from just her soul

Her body was rendered useless. The MEoDP ends your lifespan, since the lines are the concept of the lifespan of existence taking form. She already stated that once Shiki delivered the first hit (which slashed through her neck and severed her head) she was already dead. Once a person is dead the sould leaves the body.

>which implies omnipotence since she is effectively immortal with what you're saying

om·nip·o·tent
adjective
1.
almighty or infinite in power, as God.

She is not immortal (during the day) let alone omnipotent, just hard to kill. If she is dragged outside of Earth, trapped in a different dimension, or as Ciel stated, if her body is destroyed by a CW with the power to kill the world, then she dies for good. She just cannot be destroyed by raw power, or physically as long as she is on Earth.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 16:05:58 2011 No.7705191

>>7705097
>Immortality with no limits sounds like omnipotence to me

Refer to the above.

>Neither does yours friend, you're relying on just as much inferrences and fanwanking as anyone else here

Unlike you I am following Nasu's words, and I haven't twisted anything. You're the one who is disregarding canon statements because they don't fit your definitions and don't benefit your argument.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 16:28:27 2011 No.7705280 Why do people use the word 'canon' as if it means the holy word of god himself?

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 16:37:30 2011 No.7705298

>>7705280

Because that's what it is, as far as powerlevel fags care. It's "evidence" that you scour for "feats" and try to compare them to the Enemy Character's "feats" in a manner that pretends to be scientifically accurate (even to the point of making tons of bullshit "calcs" to extrapolate these "feats" into kind of shit the writer definitely never actually meant). Even though all of this stuff is hazy, vague, subjective and by writers who like to break their own fictional rules whenever it suits them, and even though it will not affect the public perception of the characters or their powerlevels at all.

Basically, it's a kind of a ritual battle where our tribe attempts to prove that our totem god is bigger than your tribe's totem god. All we need is grass skirts and unga bunga drums.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 16:49:02 2011 No.7705321

>>7705183
>Are you saying that your words have more weight than Ciel's words?
I already told you what I thought of this. We have nothing to gain by your bringing this up constantly unless you bring something new.

>It just proves she is more perfect than the other TAs.
>More perfect
Uh huh.

>Both Arc and Ryougi have restrictions.
Arc does, Ryougi doesn't. I've already addressed this in an earlier post, refer back to it.

>I don't see why you are bringing things that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.
You brought up the drama CD (which I still don't consider canon), not me. You're only confusing yourself further.

>Having a human body is a limit.
Didn't stop Ryougi from altering reality now did it? I see no limits, or at least limits that hinder her in any way.

>It's in KT (CM Ten Nights of Dream).
[Citation Needed]
Don't paraphrase, give me the quote or it's fanwank.

>Her body was rendered useless.
Still there. You're saying her soul could regenerate itself, which leads to

>almighty or infinite in power, as God.
Based on that stupid Drama CD you brought up, she is omnipotent. Unlimited power, can't be killed at 100% because lines don't exist, can regenerate from nothing and her soul is untouchable. Sounds like omnipotence to me.

>Unlike you I am following Nasu's words, and I haven't twisted anything.
>Haven't twisted anything
Do you really need me to bring up some of the shit you have spat from your mouth?

>
No it doesn't really. Ryougi stated in that interview that Arc has no limits, not the Earth. It means the amount of power she can draw from Earth has no limits. I think you're taking this too literally.
Your bullshit and subsequent denial is astounding.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 17:31:36 2011 No.7705417
File: 498 KB, 646x512, Picture.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>7705321
>We have nothing to gain by your bringing this up constantly unless you bring something new

Ok so you are chosing to disregard the points you cannot argue against? At least I am adressing every one of your points.

>Uh huh

Yes, perfect. In KT, Roa stated that she has the perfect, you know what he is talking about. Same for the Prologue in Plus Period, she has the most supreme body. Suggesting that she lacks capabilities the other TAs have is ridiculous.

>Arc does, Ryougi doesn't.

Whatever. I don't care about this, since has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

>You brought up the drama CD (which I still don't consider canon), not me

Except that you are the one who brought Ryougi. Also, fandom doesn't get to dictate what is and is not canon.

>Didn't stop Ryougi from altering reality now did it? I see no limits, or at least limits that hinder her in any way

If this limit weren't a hinder, then she'll be able to easily beat Servants, Arc, and even Types. We already know she can't beat Servants, and that she is second to Arc, as per Word of God.

>[Citation Needed]

See pic. She implies that transformation into a DA makes the soul more resistant to dispersion.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 17:32:36 2011 No.7705420

>>7705321
>You're saying her soul could regenerate itself

Not really, just that she could use her power to recreate a body. Her soul wouldn't disperse.

>Based on that stupid Drama CD you brought up

It's not just the Drama CD, even in the game is stated that she has unlimited power, even Nasu stated that she has unlimited back up. But you already know what I think regarding this.

>Unlimited power

They say unlimited power, but it can't be literally unlimited, just as much as Earth.

>can't be killed at 100% because lines don't exist, can regenerate from nothing and her soul is untouchable.

Yeah this is correct. And that doesn't make her omnipotent, refer to my previous statement regarding that.

>Do you really need me to bring up some of the shit you have spat from your mouth?
>...

Does that count as twisting the words? Or, would you rather take it literally, and say that Arc really does have infinite power?

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 18:17:04 2011 No.7705530

>>7705417
>Ok so you are chosing to disregard the points you cannot argue against?
But we didn't disregard them, we're going in circles over and over and over. I'm not going to repeat myself again.

>Yes, perfect.
Perfect means she's different. No one ever suggested she lacked something, just that as a full fledged TYPE, she follows different rules (kill Gaia, you kill her).

>Except that you are the one who brought Ryougi.
Because Ryougi only exists in a Drama CD? Also, it's not fandom, it's stated quite clearly what she can do at the end of KnK by Shiki herself.

>as per Word of God.
Then explain her reality warping powers. Nasu directly contradicted himself, so either we're missing something, or he's retconning. It wouldn't surprise me either, since he hasn't said anything about Void Shiki's powers being false.

>She implies that transformation into a DA makes the soul more resistant to dispersion.
>Implies
I don't see that anywhere. Once again, cite your source from your original quote or stop paraphrasing.

>Her soul wouldn't disperse.
Same thing then. If her soul can never die, it regenerate its host body as well?

>It's not just the Drama CD, even in the game is stated that she has unlimited power, even Nasu stated that she has unlimited back up.
So you're saying that Arc is omnipotent and has no limits. Please stop flip flopping; I can barely understand your stance on this matter with you jumping back and forth. Does she, or does she not have limits? Last time I'm asking because

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 18:18:04 2011 No.7705535

>>7705530
>They say unlimited power, but it can't be literally unlimited, just as much as Earth.
Do you see how much retarded your statement is? You're basically saying that Nasu is wrong, except that you're saying he's also right. Which is it? He can't be both at the same time, so either it's a retcon or he didn't take something into account. Stop being stupid.

>And that doesn't make her omnipotent, refer to my previous statement regarding that.
Refer to mine, you didn't address it.

>Does that count as twisting the words?
Yes, there's literally nothing pointing to her drawing power from Gaia. It's pure fanwank and you're using it to fuel your argument.
Hah, and you accuse me of doing it. Really now?

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 18:48:25 2011 No.7705601 Also, we shall continue this discussion some other time. I'm off for vacation starting tomorrow, so you can have the last word. Just know that a lack of a response doesn't mean no rebuttal exists. It was fun.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 19:04:48 2011 No.7705631
File: 263 KB, 640x480, TrueAncestor2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>7705530
>But we didn't disregard them, we're going in circles over and over and over

Yes but this is valid proof, and you're disregarding it because it completely destroys your argument.

>just that as a full fledged TYPE, she follows different rules (kill Gaia, you kill her)

She has never become a full fledged Type. Also the fact that she dies if Gaia dies has always been true.

>Because Ryougi only exists in a Drama CD? Also, it's not fandom

No but you brought what she said about Arc in the Drama CD. Also my second stated was adressed to your claim that the Drama CD it's not canon.

>it's stated quite clearly what she can do at the end of KnK by Shiki herself

Oooh I see, so Ryougi's words = canon facts while Ciel's words are invalid? You're horribly biased. I could make the same argument you did with Ciel's statements, but I won't, because I have no reason to doubt Ryougi's words and I am trying to be as neutral as possible.

>Then explain her reality warping powers. Nasu directly contradicted himself

What does the scale of her powers have to do with her fighting ability? You can't call it a "retcon" just because you don't agree with Nasu's statements. The most plausible explanation is that Ryougi's reality altering powers aren't all that useful during combat, or that she is just not fast enough to keep up with Servant's speed.

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 19:05:48 2011 No.7705634

>>7705530
>If her soul can never die, it regenerate its host body as well?

Her consciousness never faded, so she regenerated her body.

>So you're saying that Arc is omnipotent and has no limits

I am saying that for the purpose of her battles, she'll never run out of power, and she won't lack power. Or do you want me to say that she is omnipotent? because I don't believe it and makes no sense, considering her source of power is Earth.

See the picuture, the statement refers to the fact that they can draw as much power as they need from Earth.

>Refer to mine, you didn't address it.

I already did, and nothing of that makes her omnipotent.

>Yes, there's literally nothing pointing to her drawing power from Gaia. It's pure fanwank and you're using it to fuel your argument.

Except, the statement from the game I just posted explicitly refers to her drawing power from Earth. If it's not referring to her drawing power from Earth, then it cannot refer to her MP, because MP is just planetary scale.

>>7705601
Ok, have fun.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 19:14:16 2011 No.7705649 itt:MY MARY SUE IS BETTER

Anonymous Sat Aug 6 19:53:20 2011 No.7705735

>>7704578
>>7704561
>If we go by raw intelligence (not wisdom), Eirin or Patchy would probably win. Yukari is a lot wiser though.

The other way around. Eirin, with all her years of experience, is still a human. She may well be wiser, but she's not going to be able to match Yukari's completely broken abilities.

Patchy's just a bookworm, and the kid compared to the other two, though. Completely different league.

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 19:59:51 2011 No.7705743 File: 34 KB, 374x351, dontstop.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Sat Aug 6 20:22:52 2011 No.7705778 but can't Arc, Flan and Patchy just be friends and eat cake togheter? please?

>>	The Monster Hunter !PqK3XJWyYA Sun Aug 7 01:07:12 2011 No.7706817 >>7705735 >Eirin, with all her years of experience, is still a human. Yup and people think I shit post.

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