/lit/ - Literature

better times senpai

>>10281874
Thinking too hard on this gives me derealization desu. Thanks for posting this right when my weekend begins.

>>10281874
Why was goethe so great?
Is his stuff worth reading?

>>10281941
He was actually not 'that great', he was more concerned with things of nature than with society, so that might put some people off.

I can imagine Socrates, he seems to express common sense. It's people who put in absurd effort like Van Goethe or Dostoevsky who break me. I hope guys like Vonnegut feel like shit for their effortless, lazy writing

>>10281962
who's this Van Goethe you speak of?

>>10281944
>He was actually not 'that great', he was more concerned with things of nature than with society

>>10281874
they avoided soy

>>10281896
Excuses like this is y u suck

>>10281874
It’s actually not only do-able but it’s the easiest way to live
>learn to think faggot

>>10282088
what? are you saying that anyone can become goethe if they work hard enough? if so, you're an idiot

>>10282208
ofc that's not what he's saying
only goethe could become goethe
fucking idiot, that doesn't even make sense

>>10282208
>>10282257
could anyone, through hard work, become like Bach?? don't be stupid! pic related idiots.

>>10282279
>>10282257
>>10282208
>>10282088
haha dummies!

Not just anyone can be the genius Goethe was.

>>10282284
>yfw

>>10281874
there are smarter people today, theyre just in some extremely specialized technical field doing something boring that you'll never hear about

>>10281941
Read Faust, it's good shit

>>10282286
>he convinced himself this was more natural
What an absolute psychopath

>>10281874

I wouldn't call Goethe genius, but I would say he was very talented at both artistic and scientific ventures which is quite rare.

Goethe said himself he wasn't as proud as of his poetical works as his scientific achievements. Which I understand, because while I think Faust is really fucking good I don't think it's a masterpiece like people say.

>>10281874
>Kant existed
>Hegel existed
>fucking Bach existed

>>10282657
>I wouldn't call Goethe genius
I would call you pretentious and ignorant

>>10281874
Yes, and if there was a /lit/ back then we'd hate them both.

>>10282657
Faust is a real good book imho

lately I find myself floored by how intelligent and creative some people can be or have been. maybe with age and realizing my own limitations I've gained a greater appreciation for what others have been able to do

it's somewhat depressing on an individual level but at the same time I'm just glad that humanity can achieve such heights at all.

>>10282657
>I wouldn't call Goethe genius
Do anglos actually believe this?

>>10282657
Goethe had an estimated 200+ IQ

>>10282702
Are you fucking retarded?

>>10282711
look it up brainlet

>>10282657
kys faggot

>>10282699

Why not? What constitutes a genius anyways? It's not like i'm calling him a retard, he's well above the average intelligence of a normal person, but in my opinion "Genius" is much more few and far in between. In my opinion genius involves doing something that is currently unfathomable at the time and seems almost beyond human. Something that without that person would probably haven't happened much later. Newton was a superhuman prodigy, I consider him a genius.

>>10281874
Humans are shit.

>>10282722
>What constitutes a genius anyways?
Being in the top 2% in terms of IQ is the definition

>>10282727

Then maybe there are way more geniuses than I want to acknowledge. I don't know, Goethe was pretty smart, but I guess he was intelligent in many different ways as opposed to being a specialist. I guess his natural intuition is legendary.

Seriously though, is it because I read Faust in english that it didn't live up to expectations? I really don't rank it close at all to something like Hamlet or Divine Comedy.

>>10282702
he died 100 years before IQ tests existed. i bet you feel pretty about yourself right about now huh guy?:)

>>10282699
Where's this inferiority complex 'anglos believe this' coming from? It seems kinda French but they usually dont know English well enough to post...

>>10282619
Not the same type of smart, though.

>>10282737
>estimated

>>10282740
I use it all the time and I live in New York it's just fun to roleplay

>>10282734
Dude just shut up. Nobody wants to hear about how you 'rank' anything, please go

>>10282737
>tested iq
>estimated iq

>>10282743
sounds legit lol

>>10282749
>estimated height 6'2
>mfw he was really 6'1

fucking manlet

>>10282668
>Hegel existed
Life can't always be good to us

>>10281944
Fucking kill yourself for thinking society is detached from nature. You must be Anglo because only an Anglo could think so soullessly about something.

>>10282722
The Sturm und Drang movement literally invented the term “genius”.

>>10282746
Not him but why are you so angry with him? He’s being pretty humle about it.

Did you not get the birds and bees? Bee put its stinger in the bird.

>>10282740
>that shitty attempt at irony
You must be American.

>>10283031
Cringe. It's so easy to spot an embittered German, you cunts make it too easy. It's amazing that you can act as if your country is anything but the most soul-sapped hole in all of Europe, you can tell by the way it desperately tries to promote a second-rate figure like Goethe to the level of Dante or Shakespeare kek.

>>10283335
>promote a second-rate figure like Goethe to the level of Dante

>>10282746
Or you could just get off the thread? Germans are such insufferably insecure cunts.
>>10282727
That is so far from what constitutes genius, it's about achievement not some arbitrary measurement of cognitive ability

>>10282702
t. Buzzfeed

>>10283341
Not bait. Goethe himself had a bust of Dante in his office, and then arrogantly told Eckermann that "dude you're just not ready to comprehend his work" in his usual irritating German manner.

>>10283354
Goethe dominated German writing for more than a century after his death. Only after WW2 was German literature really able to break with the form and tone that Goethe pioneered. His influence can not be understated.
Without Goethe, there is no Mann, no Kafka, no Fontane and so on.

>>10283354
>Goethe himself had a bust of Dante in his office
>this settles who was the ""greatest""
The absolute state of underage /int/ards. As idiotic as it is to ""r8 the gr8s"", it's even more so to compare a quintessential polymath with pure poet. If you're looking for a preteen edginess contest then why are you on a board without flags?

>>10283358
That's all very well, but so what? German Lit was a relatively isolated cultural landscape (Carlyle had to spend an entire career trying to import it into England), unlike French of English lit at the time so it was only really an internal influence on Germany itself. As for the quality of the works, I only know English and Italian but I never saw why Faust was such a masterpiece. An interesting work that in a lot of ways marks the beginnings of what me might now call modernity in Europe, but I don't think Goethe is in anyway comparable to the other "greats."

>>10283374
What an incredible contribution you've made. I've got no interest in "r8ing tha gr8s", I just can't resist arguing with arrogant Germans about their inflated sense of cultural worth, that's all. The bust trivia is just a throwaway comment, did you want a 12-page academic comparison of the poetical works of Dante and Goethe? Fuck off.

>>10283386
>I've got no interest in "r8ing tha gr8s", I just can't resist doing it
Wew.
>arrogant Germans about their inflated sense of cultural worth
Were you molested by a German or something? Nobody cares either way.
>did you want a 12-page academic comparison
Nice strawmanship. I expected any kind of rational argument, so far it's nothing but autistic ramblings about Germans and "i didn't like Faust that much".
>>10281681

>>10283378
Have you read his Poetry?

>Napoleon actually had a little talk with Goethe

>>10283335
>Goethe to the level of Dante
>the most prolific polymath out there only surpassed by da vinci to the level of christfag fanfiction writer
really making me think over here, anglotard

>>10283414
>>10283414
>Wew
How is disagreeing with the importance assigned to a specific literary figure equivalent to ranking the greats? It's just about influence really.
>Nobody cares either way
You mean apart from everyone else in this thread? This entire thread is just German patriotism, ctrl + F for "Anglo" if you need it proven. But thanks for this nugget of wisdom anyway.
>Nice strawmanship
No, you wagged your finger get at me for comparing a "polymath with a pure poet" for some reason, even though that polymathery included poetry. Is it unfair to compare Goethe with Fontane because the latter was a "pure novelist"?

>>10283425
Napoleon was a pleb, his favorite novel was Werther.

>>10283436
Napoleon was little nerd. Staying in his room all alone reading about Caesar instead of playing with the other boys at the military academy.

He also wrote a Werther fanfic that sucked.

>>10283441
>He also wrote a Werther fanfic that sucked.
Where can I read this?

>>10283442
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clisson_et_Eug%C3%A9nie

>>10283443
Aww, I was hoping for a literal fanfiction.

>>10283434
>This entire thread is just German patriotism
You don't have to be German to not be a stereotypical ignorant Anglo barely able to recognize that reality doesn't conform to his perverse self-centered worldview. There's a reason for the whole "Anglo" meme here and you're a part of it.
>Is it unfair to compare Goethe with Fontane because the latter was a "pure novelist"?
Entirely. Especially when you're specifically stating that it's about influence. It's like arguing that Leibniz or Godel were "inferior" and less influential to Frege or Spinoza, because the latter's philosophical body of work is larger and more comprehensive.

>>10283455
>you're a part of it
I'm not even an anglo, but you've brilliantly demonstrated the "anglo boogeyman" performance of many Europeans on this site. Well done.
>...latter's philosophical body of work is larger and more comprehensive.
I think you've made the complete opposite of the point you were meaning to make here. But anyway, if we are looking at poetry we need to assess the poems, it isn't necessary to then factor in that they also made an enormous prose output. Separate the work from the man.
I don't think this is going anywhere, let's let this thread die. It was crap right from the start.

>>10282668
>Putting Bach, Hegel and Kant in the same category

Germanophiles should kill themselves

>>10283476
>I'm not even an anglo
Doesn't matter. It's a characteristic of attitude and character, not actual nationality itself.
>if we are looking at poetry we need to assess the poems, it isn't necessary to then factor in that they also made an enormous prose output
And where did you get from that we're looking at poetry or arguing poetical merits only? Nobody mentioned or made this distinction. It's literally just you who decided for no reason to constrain the discussion solely to this sphere and then went on to autistically rant about ze germins.
>I don't think this is going anywhere, let's let this thread die.
A.k.a. "I noticed my random goalpost setting retardation, so it's time to move on". Stop giving in to your edgelord knee-jerking impulses and try to contribute instead.

>>10283378
>I never saw why Faust was such a masterpiece.
t. read a shitty prose translation

>>10283492
t. shriveled dick anglocuck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie52xH8V2L4

>>10282741
im a rennysance man

>>10283528
>It's a characteristic of attitude and character
>Dude its a frame of mind ;)
Hahahah wtf are you on about? Its an explicitly cultural term you posturing retard.
>where did you get from that we're looking at poetry or arguing poetical merits only?
From the fact that we were arguing about Goethe in comparison to Dante (A POET), which is what got you all hot and bothered in the first place. I didn't set those boundaries, you did. I know its a long thread, but do try and keep up.
>A.k.a. "I noticed my random goalpost setting retardation, so it's time to move on"
Your last gasp of bullshit shows very well why this thread ought to die. Its just become an argument about semantics and what we did or didn't say earlier on. Now fuck off you smug, useless poseur. You couldn't contribute to a thread if your dull little life depended on it.

>>10283537
>Confining music, or art in general, to national identity
Time to grow up

>>10283549
>Goethe in comparison to Dante
>I didn't set those boundaries
Kek. Is this >>10283335 not your post, contrarian faggot?
>Its just become an argument about semantics and what we did or didn't say earlier on
It was absolutely clear to everyone ITT that OP meant to discuss genius at large providing a polymath and a composer as example. Semantics began when you, the autismal faggot, decided we should discuss your personal poetical preferences instead.
>Now fuck off you smug, useless poseur. You couldn't contribute to a thread if your dull little life depended on it.
Excellent irony. Now shush, pastanigger.

>>10282071
the greatest dutch poem painter who has ever lived, you illiterate fuck

this shit is even worse in math where it's easier to quantify the power gap between great minds and people who work hard

depressing stuff tbqh I try not to think about it

>>10283615
Was Abel a great mind or hard worker? What about Gauss? Euler?

>>10283622
Shh. Don't confuse a /sci/ brainlet who masturbates to Grothendieck and Galois.

>>10283622
>>10283637
what's your point lads I'm sensing hostility here

>>10283615
math is one of the most depressingly humbling subjects with a very stark iq wall

>>10283648
Actually I was just curious, I don't know very much about math.

>>10283622
Carl Friedrich Gauss

>>10282747
I estimate your IQ 60-70

>>10282286

This threads amazing, its all tumblr identity politics with Lit.

>>10282619
>Goethe was great because he was smart

Nietzsche called Goethe closest to the Übermensch for a reason

>>10283866
Thats a good post even though youre being a dick:D Great is a far better word than genius, which has now been appropriated by soccer moms in their pride that little Jimmy done a jigsaw

>>10283866
>>10283979
Even if you disagree with Goethe being one of the greats of poetry, philosophy, science and education (all of which I believe he was), he is undoubtedly still a contender for being the greatest novelist of all time.

>>10284005
Of course I agree he was great. I just don't think his greatness lies in his smartness (whatever that is).
Intuitive grasp of timeless truths and understanding of beauty are much more important and rare than the autistic analytical 'smarts' this anon >>10282619
appreciates

>>10284039
>muh fee-fees are mur impurtant than your stupid smarts

>>10283816
I estimate you to be a faggot

Beethoven was far greater an artist than Goethe. Beethoven is on the level of Shakespeare and Michelangelo as one of the greatest creative minds the world has ever known.

>>10282687
>>10282624
>self inserts are good books now
Please. I could not read this book without seeing the enormous ego Goethe has for himself. In fact all of his novels are secretly about him.
If you think that self inserts make for great novels then perhaps you should read David Foster Wallace

>>10283835
kek

>>10284188
is this not true of any Representation though? We've only ever seen things through our own eyes

>>10282727
>people actually believe this is what a genius is

>>10282286
I've been doing this for a while now. Awkward at first but now I feel very 'natural' and 'balanced'. People do stare.

>>10284060
Bach is far above Beethoven, though.

>>10282279
Funny, Michelangelo said something similar.

>>10284039
Well at least that is somewhat defensible if you argue that those technicians are doing something worthwhile, there was another anon earlier in this thread who thought Goethe's greatness lay in some psychologists 'estimation' of his IQ. This is truly a strange way of thinking but it isnt that unusual.

>>10284241
Isn't this normal? How else are you supposed to walk? It gives you greater balance

>>10284039
It's ultimately the work that matters. How many people are there with 150+ IQs who die in obscurity having accomplished nothing great?

>>10284044

>literature board
>Goethe mentioned next to Bach
>kek it's IQ smarties boys fuck your artistic feefees

This is why I avoid conversations with STEMfags

>>10284243
Nah, that is just some trendy view that started some decades ago. Beethoven is as great as Bach, maybe greater.

>>10284589
definitely, and much

>>10284416
>why I avoid conversations with STEMfags
That would be your crippling intellectual deficiency, burger flipper.

>>10283615
I know this feeling. I did my undergrad in math and while I did well in my classes, I had to work extremely hard. I realized I'd never be great and that the most I'd ever accomplish was memorizing and applying the accomplishments of greater men.

>>10284188
>1772
>writing from your own experiences
>not writing literature from within the consciousness of another entity

Agree, horrible author.

Jesus what a horrible life it would be to exist within only one mind.

Why do people equate intelligence with happiness and personal fulfillment?

Not only that, but not everyone can be an artistic, scientific, mathematical or other type of academic genius, because then society wouldn't work. You're still fulfilling some role in life even if you weren't born with a freakishly high IQ/natural gifts.

>>10285013
Id guess most posters here are late teens/early twenties and semi-to-very(by world standards)-priveleged white males. A very narcissitic demographic.

>>10281874
Neither were all that impressive compared to the actual greats. Germanocentrism is annoying.

>>10285013
I don't think they equal happiness with it, they place it above even happiness because it would validate them. The necessity to stand out from everybody else is a core principle of narcissism, which is where the obsession with genius comes from.

>>10282722

So Nikola Tesla was a supergenius, then?

>>10285093
Germany from the 19th century up to about 1930 was the center of the world in pretty much every major field though, right? Even if you're studying something like Classics, it really does help if you can read German as so much of the original scholarship was done there. Even the great scholars of other countries poets were German.

>>10285089

a great guess, a very solid one,to be hones

>>10281941
He was a polymath in the truest sense of the word. Great men like him simply don't -- nay, can't -- exist these days.

>>10285109
The great historians, too. Mommsen and von Ranke especially

>>10284239
>filename
>but they always look like that!

>>10281874
The greatest part about Goethe is that he’s too down to earth kind of a man, someone like a respected family member to often get advices from. That’s how he looks like from his memoirs and works at least.

I think I'll use 'Werther' to dictionary and parse learn German, wish me luck

>>10285563
Elaborate please

>tfw born too late to become an autodidact polymath

>>10282722
read Schopenhauer's On Genius. It's a short essay, and it's a good one. He basically defines a genius as someone whose intelligence is fully separated from the will. They see the past and the present together, and can channel this into a work of art if that's what it calls for, bringing in the universality and objectivity of things. Goethe more than anyone else, along with Shakespeare and even Schopenhauer himself, are a couple of geniuses that Schopenhauer namedrops.

>>10282899
this but semiotically

>>10282289

why are they wearing frog masks lol

>>10282727
Muh iq lmao

le great people are naturally great, only brainlets work hard

le great people work hard, only brainlets rely on natural ability

le iq

le maths example

le historical examples

>>10284796
>>10284589
>>10284243
>>10284060
Further proof that Mozart is underrated

>>10286177
for some reason there are anti-mozart memes going around this site. but it's hard to respect a skinny manlet, beethoven was at least stocky.

>>10285998
t. soyboy brainlet

genius =/= someone who accomplishes greatness
genius ↔ high IQ
Goethe was both a genius and a great writer

anything else, brainlets?

>>10284243
He really isn't. Bach extended counterpoint too an unseen degree, whereas Beethoven turned music on its head. Imagine Mozart or Haydn composing something as revolutionary as this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6s0Mp7LFI-k..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2tEVVeGCk0

>>10283350
kek

>>10286812
yeah, who asked for your stupidly wrong opinion

>>10284811
That, or my desire to not work in a soulless field and environment.

>tfw I'm not flipping burgers
>my job is actually fulfilling
>not surrounded by numberfags

No internet or soy

>>10286919
>too dumb to contribute in intellectually demanding fields
>hur it's soulless and unfulfilling
every time

>>10282702
But did he watch Rick and Morty?

>>10283557
>muh culture just appears from nowhere and isn't linked to a people

>>10281874
They were ok but they would be destroyed by Destiny in a debate

>>10286840
>Imagine Mozart or Haydn composing something as revolutionary as this
no

>>10286840
god, /lit/ trying to talk about music is embarrassing

>>10285093
four sentences and you managed to piss me off more with each one.

>>10281944
>implying

>>10287387
oh yeah thats what im talking about baby

>>10283614
He was German you worthless prick

>>10285811
Spoiler: He can't and this thread is fucking gay.
>Polymaths can't and don't exist today hurr durr no one great from my age will ever be remembered as a classic or a genius if given enough time.

>>10287403
>art is not intellectually demanding
>said the STEMfag inserting muh science into a thread about artists
>on a literature board of all places

See, that's why I hate STEMfags. Why can't you circlejerk over coding on TS with your celibate friends and leave us alone? I see your fag kind everywhere from public readings to exhibitions. Why?
You won't catch me crashing your LANparty to talk about arts.

>>10281941
He is reportedly one of the most intelligent and great men in history, up there with the likes of Bacon, Newton, Wittgenstein

>>10291525
Is this bait?

>>10284589
Bach is unfathomably great. His music is as close to technically perfect as we will probably ever know

That said, I'm glad that there is more to listen to than just Bach

>>10283492
This.

Remove Kant. Bach and Hegel were geniuses. Kant was a fucking brainlet.

>No, I don't speak German but my opinion on this German author is...
irrelevant. stfu you apes and don't do this nonsense again if you don't like looking stupid

>>10281874
Better people existed before equality murdered them all.

>>10291721
>literally transform every major field of philosophy
>brainlet
>write a heap of incomprehensible barely cohesive masturbatory metaphysical autism
>genius
The absolute state of pseuds.

>>10283545
surprised nobody mentioned da vinci yet in this thread

>>10291721
Kant brought Logos back to the realm. No wonder you'd be against him.

>>10291671
Wittgenstein? are you serious?

>>10292177
estimated wittgenstein IQ 191

He did many things besides philosophy. His biographies give an extensive account of this.

>>10292177
are you serious? He's thought of as one of the greatest minds of the twentieth century.

>>10281874
Goethe actually read The Greeks.

>>10285563
>Beethoven and Goethe weren't recognized by their peers at the time they were active
>hurr-durr people like them can't exist anymore
WOW. It's almost like if somebody on the level of Beethoven does exist today, they haven't been recognized yet. Also,
>nay

>>10289536
Good argument. Carry on pretending to enjoy Glenn Gould.

>>10292205
No one in the world of mathematics takes him seriously. If he were actually a genius he would have contributed more to mathematics.

>>10282279
What does he mean when he says he was obliged ?

>>10293785
he knew he had the talent to make something lasting, and he knew it would be a waste of his existence to ignore it