/lit/ - Literature

>>10756762
>>>/pol/

We're pro-trans here.

>>10756762
If you need a book to convince you to respect others' human rights, why don't you just follow your leader and put a bullet in your brain

>>10756805
HAHAHAHAHAHA

>>10756762
I used to be pro trans when they were just fellow NEET autists on image boards, but when transgenderism became a meme in the mass media, I found myself forced to become a transphobic TERF catholic out of sheer contrarianism.

>>10756908
Same

does it have pics of trap feet? i need to know for academic reasons

>>10756908
>>10756913
dudes, just read the monk by lewis

>>10756805
>>>/b/

>>10757003
>>>/pol/

>>10757003
HAHAHA

>>10756762
>theres a pro-trans book of comparable rigor
....Anon... I....

>>10756762

Have you read Bailey "The Man Who Would Be Queen"?

He's fairly scientifically & objective, just trying to understand exactly what is going on; if anything he tends to be positive towards transsexuals.

His basic these is that there are two fundamentally different types of MtF transsexual and he makes a compelling case.

Well worth a read.

>>10756762

Whipping Girl by Julia Serano is probably the closest thing

>>10756762
>I'm a trans girl

I don't mind trannies as long as they're not hardcore ideologues, might read this desu.

>>10756762
IMO The so called Catman argument is sufficient to fully debunk and BTFO all trannies, forever. This is Catman, he is a transfeline LGBT person pronouns: (Cat/Cats/Catself). In liberal places such as Sweden, Canada, San Francisco and the U.K. The regressive leftist PC police can drag you to jail for Hate Crimes if you refuse to have sex with Catman. Is this really the dystopian future we want?

>>10757832
>Is this really the dystopian future we want?
>asking me this deep into the weekend
can cat bring friends? how's this cat feel about class As? any chance cat's into free love and jazz? pls respond

>>10756812
weak bait

>>10756762
Gnosticism is the root of the pro-trans argument desu.

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html

Here you'll find a defense of mind-body dualism, the idea that you're just a ghost in a machine.

>>10756812

Rights don't exist. But there is is weakness in someone thinking that another's freedom to choose their own destiny is an attack to their own self.

>>10757922
Trannies aren't choosing their own destiny, they are universally just pathetic beta males who got memed and peer pressured and brainwashed by those goddang Chinese cartoons and Jewish professors into chopping off their peckers

>>10757922

You just described all of modern liberalism.

>white males not doing enough to help me is oppression

>>10757949

Are you really going to get your own existence shaken by the people aiming at working out their own inadequations, the same yourself consider inferior?

What a wimpy faggot you are.

>>10756805
>>>/lgbt/
>>>/r/eddit

>>10756812
Le epic XD comrade! :DDD

>>10757971
The moment you start going after children and indoctrinating them with your trendy PC gender ideology you'll be crossing a red line, bro. Now It's personal. You messed with

>>10758096

did we tread on your private ideology?

>>10758112
Tbhh every time i remember trans people exist I do one of those high pitched Homer Simpson screams
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BrWGgYlkdfA

>>10758112


Shouldn’t you be posting your epic dank maymays on r/communism?


(Edit: Thanks for the gold, kind stranger!)

>>10756762
well, Gender Trouble is the academic bible of transgenderism/etc

>>10758126
>>10758130

The feebleness of your own identity transpires through your hatred of difference.

>>10756762
Just treat them like human beings and call them by whatever name they want to be called by

It's not that hard, holy fuck

>>10758147
Judith Butler and John Money, the masterminds behind postmodern transgenderkin theory both happen to be members of (((the tribe))). Coincidence?

>>10758130
>Telling someone to go back to R*ddit after posting with all this r*ddit spacing
/the_pol/ spotted

>>10758156
There's obviously more to it than that.

>>10758156
A purple haired goblin comes up tells you it's gender is mayonnaise and orders you to refer to it by one out of 7 sets of made up pronouns alternating according to their whims and the phases of the moon. You are supposed to yield to their every whim and congratulate them on the stunning bravery of their ZOG approved PC lifestyle

are you guys really not going to post qt trap feet?

>>10758180

The chuckle when the /pol/acks believe that.

>>10758180

At first I laughed, and then I felt a feeling of deep dread and despair.

>>10758180
Or you could shrug, go “yeah sure whatever”, and move the fuck on with your life. I fucking hate furfags but if they wanna walk around in their fursuits and make an ass of themselves in the streets I have better things to do with my time than try to chase them down.

>>10758180
>it's
This enrages me more than anything. The possessive is "its". You're a cunt.

>>10758159
>cant spot sarcasm without /s
>'do I fit in yet guys'
>reddit bogeyman
Really makes me think.

>>10758204

t. I was merely pretending

>>10758201

Fuck off pedantic fag.

>>10758213
Use a comma before a vocative clause, cunt.

>>10758211
Yeah. As evidenced by the ‘thanks for the gold’ and the double reddit spacing. Yeah.

>>10756828
>>10756908
>>10757003
>>10757600
>>10757832
>>10758014
>>10758096
>>10758180

>>10758218
I remember when I was a high school English faggot. You’ll grow out of being a faggot one day, faggot.
>>>/r/eddit

If any qt traps with nice feet are triggered by reading this thread, I'd like to propose taking pictures of your qt feet (socks or no socks) as a way of taking your mind off things. It'll be like in that book Orlando, I'll throw myself off a steam ship if you show me ankles <33

>>10758237
Epic, simply epic, comrade! XD

>>10758244
THIS

>>10758239
You seem to be stuck there.

>>10758252
Good one.

>>10758204
What the fuck is /s you dumb redditor

>>10758250
They always have the best socks. I think they order them from Japan.

>>10758257
I've heard good things about Sock Dreams as well. Why do they have such great taste?

>>10758158
the masterminds behind the bible were also members of (((the tribe))).... wow!!!

>>10758272
I don't, man. I think I'm going to order Breakfast on Pluto, though. That's been long overdue in my backlog.

>>10758287
lol, I don't *know*.

The prospect of qt traps in thigh highs is fuggin with my skull.

>>10758256
>pretending like youre not the redditfag
come on now

Sorry, this is a transgender-friendly board.
All counterrevolutionaries and people rowing back against the flow of history are not welcome.

>>10758198
>mfw

>>10758301
post feet

>>10758309

sorry, I'm a cis heteronormative white male. I don't have what you want.

>dude haha just stop caring xd it no effect you

This is why society sucks you cockmonglers and yes it does effect everyone

>>10758325

It only effects that some people are getting more comfortable with whom they are. It affects nobody but themselves and whiny, little faggots like you, however.

>>10758316
you should invest more in socks, bro.

>>10758325
I've really not got a problem with a society full of Dusty Springfield clones. To be honest, it sounds pretty original Thomas Crown Affair in my mind.

>>10758337
It is obvious they are just doing it because it's trendy and PC, as a means of virtue signaling to the gender crowd, gullible teens and basket cases the lot of them, though I guess the majority is still comprised of furries, anime fetishists and other such degenerates.

>>10758367
>It is obvious they are just doing it because it's trendy and PC
Yes, we'd never do anything just to piss you off :3 What kind of socks you wearing?

>>10757745
>two fundamentally different types of MtF transsexual

>>10758377
I'll tell you the two types of tranny
>those reading this thread
>those posting their feet
Guess which one doesn't pass.

>>10758301
>people rowing back against the flow of history

Metaphysically impossible. You need better metaphors.

>>10758395
>a wild heraclitean appears

>>10758386

This typology is literally better, more useful, and more predictive than anything ever proposed academically

>>10758377

>Implying autongynophilia actually exists

>>10758367

Imagine being that self-centered that anything one doesn't like is specifically done to spite you personally.

>>10756805
We are not for or against anything here mate.
Anyway, traps are not gay!!!

>>10758414
There are literally men who fetishize feminization and being emasculated sissies.

>>10758431

This. Be a tranny or be a terf. Just discuss lit.

>>10758414
it does you dumb fucking nigger

>>10758442

And those people do not transition.

>>10758414
I can personally confirm it exists.

>>10756805
>>10756812
unironically (sincerely) take the red pill

>>10758448
>blanched
>not a hack

Pick one faggot

>>10758457
>red pill
m8, if i take any more speed tonight the furniture won't survive.

>>10758454
This is a cop out answer if I ever seen one.

>>10758367
>fetishists and other such degenerates.
How you can tell someone's never read a classic.

>>10758442
There is a large distance between getting hard on when your domina tells you that you are her bitch and actually being someone's bitch.

In my opinion an alpha can get pegged by his wife in the evening as long as he is an alpha the rest of the day.

>>10758414
>AGP TS
>HSTS

Or maybe all of this business with the made up words and the acronyms is just mentally ill sex wackos, crazy people, just ranting and trying to justify their own crazy ideology.

>>10758485
I'm not talking about pegging. There men who get off on dressing up like a woman, and being humiliated by their emasculinization while sucking dick. There are many online sissy online communities you can lookup. As someone who enjoys erotic hypnosis, I've heard many trannies bitch and moan saying there is too much sissy content, and hardly any files with them in mind. Real trannies hate having their genitals called a clitty, and the humiliation that's associated with feminization.

>>10758561
I think it's weaker to deny what you like just because society or some ideology tells you to - if you wan't to abstain from lust it's another thing, but if sissy stuff is what you like and you choose something else because of spooks you are truly just a slave, a mere sheep in the herd. And in this case, the only reason you feel anger towards sissies is because of your slave morality projecting it's anger.

>>10756762

common interactions on a day-to-day basis rarely concern my gender identification or another's. i dont pay the barista differently. i dont wave at the trash people differently. i dont smile at the bus driver differently. i guess it changes things on a subconscious level in terms of how i feel about a situation, but the functional aspect of these interactions arent changed since its human-human communication that i find to be the most important and thus the ground for the interaction in the first place.

dont really see why there's any pushback to a movement advocating for an individual's quest for self-fruition. dont see what all the triggering is for. i dont get mad at parked cars taking up a parking space that i want. i dont get mad at the sky when it rains.

>>10758707
post feet

>>10758717

bonus dog ass. enjoy.

>>10757922
believing in silly concepts like weakness is weakness

>>10758707
Yeah, but why do you hate white people and want to take away free speech? There's no stupid questions, r-right?

>>10758155
Woah dude, pass me the bong

>>10758745

i dont. if you want to be an ass and call people racial slurs, then i guess thats the sacrifice we've made as a society. good job, youve exercised your freedoms.

>>10758745

and, yeah. theres plenty of stupid questions and stupid arguments that do not deserve the time they are given.

>>10758771
>theres plenty of stupid questions and stupid arguments that do not deserve the time they are given.
but how do you prove this is true without having free speech in the first place

I don't get mad at people who call my by the incorrect pronoun
lmfao who cares xdddd it no effect on u

>>10758729
i hate dogs and people who think their dogs are special

>>10758785
You are not human, you are a fucking vampire go to >>10758700 and stay there!

>>10758777

theres a symmetrical relation and the question you need to ask yourself is why does it matter what they want to be called?

really. are muh freedoms being infringed because someone wants to be called something different? i can refer to everyone as "craig" exercising my right of nominal demarcation but that doesnt mean everyone is named craig. if you really feel under attack by this, i hope you feel better eventually.

>>10758777
wasted trips on a faggot helper post

When people say they "hate trannies" they are actually being tsundere, but transpeople don't understand this type of japanese flirting yet, the solution is education, the anti-trans guys are desperate for some head.

>>10756908
>mfw I actively have to stop myself from becoming like this

>>10758729
hnng so angular and gay. stop distracting the trap thread though, twinks are gay as hell.

>>10758800
I have a gf and hate femdick... wtf is your point

>>10757890
What exactly is the alternative to mind/body dualism? It is all mind; it is all matter; it is some inconceivable amalgam of the two.

>>10758839

mind body isomorphism, seen in the reductionist sense.

happy feeling corresponds to chemical release, former reducing to latter.

>>10758800
>don't understand this type of japanese flirting yet, the solution is education
>spoonfeeding
no, anon, tranny haters are the price society must pay to keep anime pure.

>>10758771
Muh gender ideology is a literal cult

i need more (you) i'm dying!

>>10758797
the question you need to ask yourself is why does it matter what you want to be called?
<redditspace>
i dont feel my freedumbs are threatened as long as i can keep calling you "he" regardless of your wishes. i can refer to everyone by their made up gender exercising my right of saying words but that doesn't mean i have to do that. if you really feel under attack by this, i hope you feel better eventually.

>>10758797
If you want to be called like some stupid shit like it or xir dont be shocked when people think youre fucking weird and just purposely avoid you.

>>10758857
post feet

>>10758863

>>10758829
its a joke

>>10758859

i dont care what you call me and as far as ive seen, yeah, you can call anyone anything you want.

as long as you believe privacy and protection from harassment should be upheld as a public good, any legislature regarding misgendering will almost definitely require a pretty substantial burden of proof that any misgendering was malicious in intent. otherwise, you can almost indefinitely fall back on ignorance, whenever is most convenient for you.

so, it doesnt really matter.

>>10758237
Fuck fascists. Fuck men. Fuck white people. And FUCK DRUMPF!!!

What are the odds we could get back to OP's original question? Most of what I've read leads me to believe that we should be searching for better cures than surgery and hormones, but I would definitely be interested in reading a respectable book arguing for transition as the correct solution to dysphoria.

>>10758904
>any legislature regarding misgendering will almost definitely require a pretty substantial burden of proof that any misgendering was malicious in intent
lol That's not what Canada thinks!

>>10758942
This is what I want too.

I genuinely don't understand dysphoria. The political and ideological environment around it makes acquiring a reasonable perspective on the subject difficult. On the one hand, it's clear that the trans movement is in part the latest step in the neoleftist identity march. On the other hand, it's probably easy to fall into being overly reactionary, and I'm wary of that impulse.

>>10758942
>better cures

ie. prenatal screening

>>10758967
I think the problem is that it's become tied up with the gay rights movement. It wasn't that long ago that homosexuality was considered just as much of a mental illness, and the thinking on that has done a 180. The trans movement hitched their wagons to the gays early, so they're getting the same treatment, even if the data doesn't really seem to support it. But then again, maybe it does, and I just haven't seen the right studies. Certainly this thread doesn't seem likely to provide them, as dominated by /pol/ as it is.

>>10758942
Acute gender dysphoria can already be treated by taking lithium, so they won't have the urge to self-mutilate and cross dress.

>>10759013
Your obvious bias makes me skeptical. I'd like to believe you're right, but it's pretty rare for vitriolic posts to be accurate.

>>10758942
Too bad, we Marginalized folks and queers reject the standards of white male respectability politics. Want a civil debate? Well, you could start by taking your jackboot off our throats.

>>10759020
I was referring to a study done.
>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2114800
btw, Your use of the words "bias" and "vitriolic" shows you are deeply possessed by your ideology.

>>10759047
Where did you go for your victimhood degree?

>>10759013

No it can't.

>>10758845

The word is "epiphenomenalism"

>>10758904
>as long as you believe privacy and protection from harassment should be upheld as a public good
yes, please protect me from trannies harassing me into calling them by their made up names, I want to reserve the right to call them whatever I want in the privacy of my own mouth

>>10758189
>>10758198
>>10758211
>>10758213
why do you leave a space like that?

>>10758967
Psychiatry is such a poor excuse of a science. They haven't discovered a single cure for a single mental disorder. They can't even agree on what kind of behavior constitutes a legitimate disorder. None of their treatments are particularly successful. Mostly they proscribe drugs at random and hope they have a positive effect. Most of the time they do not. So they switch drugs or adjust dosage. In all probability it is the comfort people feel in finally being under the care of an "expert" that accounts for any improvement in their condition. If they knew how little these "professionals" knew, they would freak out.

Treatment of gender dysphoria is probably the most successful treatment they have. But this requires transsexuals make peace with their bodies. So you will just have to be a girl with a penis. It's a bit embarrassing, but that's as far as you can get. It's shame and disgust at having a penis that leads to feeling inferior. But if you pass it's quite nice. The thing I hate more than anything is having to get fucked in the ass. But there is no other way around that. I don't want bottom surgery because it's a primitive procedure.

>>10759284

People kept filtering me when I used a trip, so now this is how I sign my posts. Congratulations, you're one of the few who know who I am.

>>10758801
Good luck, anon. I mean that with sincerity.

>>10758801
>mfw the system is too incompetent to effectively indoctrinate me so I'm forced to brainwash myself

>>10758180
Feels good to speak a language where words don't have genders.

>>10759240
See
>>10759063

>>10759413

It still doesn't replace a person's sexuality with a normative sexuality. Not being uncomfortable with having a dick isn't the same thing as being comfortable using a dick.

>>10759457
I don't always feel comfortable using two legs to get around but I don't start political rallies about it what kind of a pussy are you that you let the physical aspects of your body so completely dominate your mind

>>10759474

Actually, these days it would rarely come to mind if it weren't for other people constantly reminding me of it. Your response is also a non-sequitur to what I actually said.

>>10759498
my apologies, I skimmed and didn't realize you had made a non-sequitur to the entire fucking thread
you know, since we're talking about transexualism and not the number of dicks you take up the ass

>>10759510

I'm saying that transsexualism has more than one component you dolt.

>>10759347
>tripfag
>resorts to reddit space because of Special Snowflake Syndrome
figures

Note to Self: Filter all reddit spacing faggots.

There isn't one. Arguments FOR the validity of transgenderism are without rigor by definition, they're anti-rigor concerning the theoretical base they argue from (the concept of biological sex and gender)

>>10759539

But that's exactly wrong. Traditional sex and gender demarcations are heuristics that are by nature non-rigorous. Any serious discussion of transsexualism has to at least broach the complex subject of sex differentiation, its genetic and chemical pathways, neurology, etc. And it's always the pro-group who are expanding rigor, since the anti-group can "win" the argument just by emotional appeal and other fallacy in conjunction with an appeal to their heuristics.

>>10759556
Do you have a good book to recommend, then? I'm still hoping to get one.

>>10760087
>>10757777

>>10760108
Neat

>>10758377
this is literally the most transparent yin-yang bullshit attempt to reinstall the productive relationship between men and women preferred by capitalist society at the level of transexual identity that refuses and criticizes it. then just cite another widely decried scientism (IQ) to lend some appearance of rationality.

>>10760134
not saying trans identity politics doesnt tend ultimately toward pink capitalism either. but at least they're more subtle about it.

>>10756805
What do you mean by 'pro'? As in, you're for the idea of the legal and physical freedom to anatomical modification? If that's the case, then I think anyone with half a heart and brain wouldn't hesitate to agree. But to argue that it's a desirable physical and/or mental condition is frankly absurd. To claim that you would experience zero concern if you discovered one of your offspring were trans would be a brazen lie.

>>10758839
hylomorphism

you're a rational animal, a mind-body composite
(see: aristotle)

>>10760141
>More subtle
Yes, as if identities sewered from their history and created through the market weren't a capitalist wet dream.

I accept transgenderism on the condition that transracialism, transagism, transheightism, transspeciesism, transintellect, etc are also all accepted. Transgenderism is the stratification of sex into a physical, measurable component (biological sex) and an almost spiritual, subjective, identity-based one (gender). There is nothing logically wrong with this on the condition that all other objective measures of one's individuality undergo the same stratification. Ethnic makeup/racial identity, age/mental age, species/identified species, height/mental height, IQ/intellectual identity, and so on. There's no argument I've ever heard for the sex/gender divide that doesn't also apply to those.

If those stratifications aren't accepted (there are some pretty good practical reasons they shouldn't be), none of them can be. This is simple. It's time for progressives to prove they mean what they say by going balls-to-the-wall, or else the time to retract the claim has come.

>>10760187
>I accept transgenderism on the condition that transracialism, transagism, transheightism, transspeciesism, transintellect, etc are also all accepted.
>There's no argument I've ever heard for the sex/gender divide that doesn't also apply to those.
>What is dysphoria
Even the most rabid SJWs don't take transracialism seriously.

>>10760208
That seems kind of hypocritical given the justifications they use for transgenderism separated from dysmorphia

>>10760208
>you're allowed to have this type of mental illness but not that type of mental illness
I thought this was a restrictive, oppressive line of reasoning?

>>10760208
>Even the most rabid SJWs don't take transracialism seriously.
Exactly. To me, that shows that they haven't attacked their own beliefs enough. It is an issue they are going to need to address

>What is dysphoria
1. Most now claim that dysphoria is not inherent to being transgender
2. There are people who report things like racial and species-related dysphoria
3. If we accept that these stratifications are illegitimate, gender dysphoria is still a real disorder and I have nothing sympathy for those who experience it and the complications it brings. That doesn't mean I accept the philosophical model

>>10760187
the bombast

>>10760238
Okay, tell me why I'm wrong.
I used to be in full support of the sex/gender divide until I hit this realization. I'm not saying this for the hell of it.

>>10760208
>What is dysphoria
elaborate

>>10760222
Transracialism isn't a mental illnesses. Transracialism doesn't even exist.

>>10760258
Trans people have a specific, real mental condition that makes them the way they are. All the other shit (transracialism, etc) have no grounds on which they base their claims.

>>10760259
t. bigot

>>10760258
>elaborate
He's trying to argue that transgenderism is a different breed because gender dysphoria is a real mental disorder with real symptoms.
I don't think this works as an argument because the existence of the disorder is not an influence for the philosophical argument that there is a subjective level above biological sex. Otherwise, phantom pain would be an argument for the existence invisible ghost limbs

>>10760267
no i mean what is gender dysphoria supposed to be exactly

>>10760294
https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

>>10760294
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria

>>10760187
I actually can't think of an argument against this
Uh oh

this retard is the kind of person who unconsciously believes that actions that are not explicitly illegal are not explicitly morally wrong
stop letting complete strangers dictate your system of ethics, retard

>>10760142
I think I actually find the trannies relatable on some level as they tend to be insecure, hyper self aware neurotic autists who hate themselves and spend way too much time on the internet. That's also why I feel compelled to distance myself from them
And rile them up with my merry japings and shitposts: you always need to have someone to look down on, remember, muh Peterson dominance hierarchy.

>>10760238
Well?
>>10760315
Neither can I, man. I'm actually kind of fishing for arguments against it here because I want to check the logic for leaks

>>10760306
>Gender dysphoria involves a conflict between a person's physical or assigned gender and the gender with which he/she/they identify. People with gender dysphoria may be very uncomfortable with the gender they were assigned, sometimes described as being uncomfortable with their body (particularly developments during puberty) or being uncomfortable with the expected roles of their assigned gender.
So it's literally just "I'm a boy but I would rather be a girl/I feel I have more in common with girls"? I don't see how this can't also apply at least to race or species.

What I want to know is how we moved so quickly from "playing with the other gender's toys is bad" to "there's no such thing as gendered toys" to "my son plays with dolls he needs hormone injections"?

Like which is it? Are pink skirts gender-neutral pieces of fabric or clear indicators of a subconscious NEED for sex reassignment?

>>10760350
>So it's literally just "I'm a boy but I would rather be a girl/I feel I have more in common with girls"?
It's more than that, gender dysphoria involved literally dysphoric feelings of being highly uncomfortable in your body and societal role. I actually feel for people who suffer from it quite a bit
>I don't see how this can't also apply at least to race or species.
The experience of identity dysphoria really only crops up in gender in any statistically significant way, but as for the actual philosophical acceptance of gender and sex being separate entities, that's exactly my point. There is no argument for the sex/gender split that doesn't apply to ethnicity, age, species, whatever.

>>10760350
Because "race dysphoria" doesn't exist.
It isn't just "I just want to be a girl xoxo" btw, it's a situation of extreme physical distress.

>>10760371
>Because "race dysphoria" doesn't exist.
There are some people who report just that, though. The only difference is that there are fewer of them.

>>10760376
no you don't understand, those people are definitely lying, but these people are definitely not lying
we know this because the great dsm in the sky said so

>>10760367
You could make the argument that identifying as the other gender happens because of a phenomenological intuition and not a simple "subjective" decision that isn't possible with race or (mein gott) species.
I just came up with this btw.

>>10760384
Ah of course, I forgot.
Even the DSM will mostly likely unlist gender dysphoria as a disorder in the interest of political correctness at some point soon, though. It can't stay safe forever.

>>10760389
Of course, but you could say the exact same thing about race or species.
>no, you don't understand. I didn't choose to be a pacific islander stuck in this white body. It wasn't a choice. It's a phenomenological intuition, and not one I can change

>>10760400
But my point is you can't do that with species because you can't (you literally can't) understand through intuition what it feels like to be another species.
You can't understand what it feels like to be another race because there's no substantial difference between say a rich black man and a rich black dude.
You can do that with gender however because gender is intuitive and the core of our identity. Men all over the world are capable of using >tfw to communicate immediately with other men about their phenomenological experience (aka their feeling) and their brain understand these feelings immediately.
It's cross cultural, cross race, cross everything.
Sorry if It sounds like I'm blabbling but I just thought of this.
>tfw no gf
Also, what's the phisosophical justification for saying that gender, race, species, etc operate on the same level?

>>10760389
>You could make the argument that identifying as the other gender happens because of a phenomenological intuition and not a simple "subjective" decision that isn't possible with race or (mein gott) species.
isn't it? what about cases where infants of one species were "adopted" by foster parents of another species? In many cases the adoptee clearly identifies with the adopter species at least as much as with his own.

https://www.zmescience.com/other/feature-post/feral-children/

>>10760459
>if you just assume my conclusion, I win the argument!
you need to support this claim that men all around the world can instantly spout off tfwnogf and immediately all share the exact same understanding, and further that women do not share this understanding, or you need to fuck off

>>10760492
I think the Reimer case is why we generally don't believe it's purely socializing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

>>10760492
That's interesting and I'll have to think about it. Anyway, I'm 100% sure that the overwhelming majority of the internet animal-kin community hasn't actually grew up with animals as their parents.

>>10760499
Eh, why would it be a meme if it wasn't relatable? That's the point of memes.

>>10760530
>all Toastahs toast TOAST
truly a very relateable phrase, no wonder it became a meme

>>10760530
The definition even.

>>10760459
>you can't (you literally can't) understand through intuition what it feels like to be another species.
I understand your point but there's no reason and literally no way to EVER prove that you can understand what it feels like to be the opposite sex either
>You can't understand what it feels like to be another race because there's no substantial difference between say a rich black man and a rich black dude.
W-what?
>You can do that with gender however because gender is intuitive
This argument only works if I've already accepted that claim, which I haven't
>and the core of our identity.
What does this mean though? How do you know gender is more a core than another identity trait? What about age? What about class? Why do some women act more like men than some men do, and nice versa? And again, how can I be sure gender and sex are two separate things beyond the necessary concept of gender in discussions of gender dysphoria?
>Men all over the world are capable of using >tfw to communicate immediately with other men about their phenomenological experience (aka their feeling) and their brain understand these feelings immediately.
WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? Women can't understand >tfw? Women can't understand >tfw when men write it? Can a white man understand a black man's >tfw any better?

>Also, what's the phisosophical justification for saying that gender, race, species, etc operate on the same level?
Sex, ethnic makeup, species, age, height, these are all objective, scientific measures that constitute the individuality of a person.
Gender is a philosophical concept that serves as half of the stratified gender/sex concept. Gender is not scientifically measurable, and can't be by nature. Gender falls in the realm of philosophy.
There is no argument for the development of a philosophical, subjective sister to sex than doesn't also open the door for the creation of philosophical sister concepts for all identity traits.

>>10760249
Well I don't think you're totally wrong, which is an important fact considered how nuanced of a discussion this necessarily must be if we are to combat the tide of excessive subjectification of terms.

The issue I have with your post is that you seem to not fully understand the definition of 'gender,' in either it's pre-identity politics form or its current one. Ten years ago, 'gender' meant ones 'expression of biological sex.' Today it's meaningless. I had a girl tell me the other night that because gender was fluid and therefore subject to as quick and definitive of a change as the weather that, if I were to find her attractive, then that would imply that I was homosexual because at that moment she could have identified as a man. Now, this is beyond insane. However, it isn't to say that gender, despite whatever SJWs and the like claim, doesn't in fact exist on a spectrum. I hate that we've been robbed of so many terms, but it is fluid—to a degree. Crossdressing goes back centuries. That is transgenderism. What it isn't is the bending of a biological baseline, as you've implied it is by comparing it to age or ethnicity. You can express your sex however you want, but whether that correlates to your sex is irrelevant. The two are usually correlated, and for what I believe to be biological reasons, but not necessarily so. We did away with the term 'transsexual' for 'transgender' because even ardent progressives realize that gender is the thing that can change, while sex is not. This isn't to say that sex isn't also spectral. It is. Hermaphrodites exist: Turner's syndrome, Klinefelter's, etc. But your genetic makeup, for the time being, is fixed from birth. The stratification of gender is not one of genome, but of superficial and hormonal expression of sex (which, unlike age and ethnicity, you can alter: just put on a dress and makeup).

>>10760530
except that
1) this meme is specific to the context of 4chan autists and I have personal (N=1) experience that tells me normies actually don't know that feel and
2) females seem capable of experiencing that feel as well, which makes it useless as a signifier of gender identity, unless I've somehow horribly misread you and that's not what you're trying to say
another counterpoint: there are plenty of race-specific memes (lurk /int/ for examples) that are contained to their racial subgroups much more strictly than tfwnogf is to its gender demo.

>>10760325
which is why its so much better to look down on those already with power

>>10760556
I think of trannies as a sinister all powerful cabal conspiring against me everywhere

>>10760544
If you actually want to take "gender" to mean "expression of biological sex," that's a different conversation and not a definition I have so much hesitancy with. However, now you've got the problem of separating biological behaviors of the sexes from cultural ones, and that line gets blurred to all hell the closer you look.

All in all though, your definition of gender is not the one modern-day debate is focused on, even if yours is the original.

I can't find much here I disagree with you on

>>10760542
>I understand your point but there's no reason and literally no way to EVER prove that you can understand what it feels like to be the opposite sex
Not the opposite sex, the opposing gender.
>W-what?
Sorry lol, meant "rich black man and a rich white dude".
>This argument only works if I've already accepted that claim, which I haven't
Sure.
>How do you know gender is more a core than another identity trait?
It's the basis of all other determinations that make identities.
>WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? Women can't understand >tfw? Women can't understand >tfw when men write it? Can a white man understand a black man's >tfw any better?
It was an example. No, an heterosexual female that identifies as a heterosexual woman can't understand what it means to experience >tfw no gf because she isn't an heterosexual male that struggles with finding a parterner and she doesn't feel the social pressures of a heterosexual male.

welp, this thread just single handedly changed my mind and convinced me that sex and gender aren’t separate
i never know what the fuck i’m going to get on /lit/

>>10760601
>Not the opposite sex, the opposing gender.
I realized the issue with what I was saying as I was typing it and was too lazy to elaborate. Let me clarify: you can't claim we know what it's like to be the opposite gender because it necessarily must be circular logic. "I know what it's like to be a girl because I feel like a girl. I know I feel like a girl because I know what girls feel like, because I am one."
>Sorry lol, meant "rich black man and a rich white dude".
You can't necessarily know that either. Many people claim they're world apart.
>It's the basis of all other determinations that make identities.
If this means what I think it means, I couldn't disagree more, but I'm not sure I know what it means.
>an heterosexual female that identifies as a heterosexual woman can't understand what it means to experience >tfw no gf because she isn't an heterosexual male that struggles with finding a parterner
A question of sexuality, not sex.
>and she doesn't feel the social pressures of a heterosexual male.
And a biological male can't feel the social pressures of being a girl

I just don't understand this transgender phenomenon. I really don't, or at least, I hope that I don't.

To what end? What will being transgender help you achieve?

Okay, people will be more sexually comfortable with themselves. So what? What's next? How will that help anything other than individual's sex drives? Are we a society that really places that much importance on sex and individual identity that the goal to become sexually attractive is a goal in and of itself?

What about taking a step back, nipping the entire problem in the bud, and stop placing such a fucking emphasis on sexuality? Why not do something that matters in the world, like working towards becoming a courageous, or a virtuous, or a just person, instead? Or, hell, what about spending your time and effort cultivating the arts, working towards the common good, spending time volunteering and helping others instead of just serving yourself? What about learning a useful trade or a skill?

All this wasted time and effort and money towards ultimately a fucking useless endeavor. I'm so tired of this transgender issue because it's ultimately meaningless. The only reason people are unhappy on both sides is because there's this completely fucking arbitrary imposition that sexuality and identity is all-important, when the truth of it is that the entire emphasis placed on individual sexuality has its roots in the baby-boomer counter-culture movement, in which a bunch of drugged-up retarded hippies that did not know what they were talking about or thinking decided to rebel against a system for the sake of rebellion itself.

Even if we were to progress and achieve this sort of universal transliberation where everyone respects each other's gender, I have the feeling that these people fighting for or against transgender rights are just malcontents with too much time on their hands and no real ambitions or goals beyond pushing some agenda that ultimately doesn't matter to the human race.

>>10760639
Good points but I don't feel like replying because It's 5:40 am here and i want to go to sleep. Anyway, what if gender is the expression of our intuition of desire through the ways that desire is understood to be expressed (which in turn creates new desires that create a network of desires deriving from the base ones that allow for intersubjectivity and so on and so forth)? I feel like I'm crossing into TERF territory here. Sorry for the word salad, i just felt like writing it down, good night.

>>10760575

>that's a different conversation and not a definition I have so much hesitancy with

But that's why I called the current definition meaningless, and also why we need to reinstate the proper definition back into public discourse by restating it ad nauseum in conversations like this.

>now you've got the problem of separating biological behaviors of the sexes from cultural ones

I'm not so sure this is actually a problem. Biological sexual behaviors include, well, sex. However 'gender norms' present themselves in a culture eventually get sorted out by common practice. In the case of the transgender movement, the only real issue I see is that one of proper definition—which, admittedly, is a big issue. So many terms have been radioactively tagged that it's nigh impossible to have a proper conversation without defining your terms, which is what we're doing right now. Extremists can make whatever claim they want to about the meaning of gender, but at the end of the day the only thing that matters is majority consensus. And I think, despite the overwhelming volume of the left's rabbling, it's still actually in favor of gender meaning 'what you look like.' I could be wrong, but talking to most people in person seems to support this.

As for transgender people, they can call themselves anything they want. That's fine. But all you really need to do to clarify what you want to know is ask them their sex. Refocusing the issue on 'sex' is I think the only way we can proceed from here because, as you've said, gender is now a defunct term bastardized by collective psychosis.

>>10760675
>I don't feel like replying because It's 5:40 am here and i want to go to sleep.
Understood, no worries. Sleep tight, anon. I can't really respond to your last point without some clarification on what "intuition of desire" means, but that can wait.

>>10756805
No. Go fuck yourself you delusional freak.

>>10760685
>I'm not so sure this is actually a problem.
I think it really is though. What does a so called MtF transgender person do? Most of the time, they wear clothes, accessories, hair, and makeup associated with women. But what are "feminine clothes"? Women's clothing differs wildly from culture to culture, location to location, and time to time. And if we DO understand a set of behaviors associated with each sex, does that make boyish girls and girly boys transgender?

>But that's why I called the current definition meaningless
I actually don't think it's meaningless at all. It's a perfectly coherent philosophical concept, it's just part of an unfinished philosophy if racial identity and whatnot are not given equal significance.

>>10760710
Transgender is a way of self-identification, rather than a label others bestow upon you. So in the case of tomboys and fairies, there is no real ambiguity that I can see so long as they identify as whatever sex they are. They just happen to land on either side of the spectrum for gender expression (for their cultures). And gender isn't merely dependent on ones sartorial decisions (though that's usually the most readily apparent indicator), but mannerisms, voice, makeup, things like that.

>I actually don't think it's meaningless at all
If not, then what its meaning? I think it's pretty clearcut. Leftists claim that gender and sex are completely acausally related (which is dumb) and therefore gender exists as a completely independent category of ones identity that is subject to nothing but one's own subjective definition of it. Therefore, if it reflects nothing but individual whim and fancy, it has no objective grounding, and is therefore meaningless. You're right in saying that it's a perfectly coherent philosophical concept in that it's consistently and perfectly incoherent. It adheres to nothing but caprice, like saying "I feel how I feel." I think the only 'unfinished' aspect of it is people's understanding.

>>10756805
>>>/faggot/

>>10760749
>Therefore, if it reflects nothing but individual whim and fancy,
Yes, or "phenomenological intuition" as another anon put it
>it has no objective grounding,
Yes
>and is therefore meaningless.
There it is. This is where you're messing up

>>10760830
Okay, so then how exactly?

You have yet to either define the word's meaning or explain its lack of meaninglessness.

I've done both. It is a term of infinite possible interpretations, and therefore is meaningless. Meaning is that which is meant by something, and if that which is meant lies solely within the realm of the phenomenological then it is without attributable meaning. Entirely untenable as anything but qualia—in this context.

You referred to gender, somehow, as an "unfinished philosophy." The only thing unfinished about it is your thinking. Please, prove me wrong.

what I really have issues getting my mind around in the gender problem, specially if I put myself in a progressive-left perspective, is the fact that it's something that affects a very small minority and making any kind of progress hardly helps humanity as a whole.

We seriously have more concerning dark clouds above us, environment, consumerism, a whole generation of people that are nihilistic and a huge immigration crises that could break the welfare system of countries if it continues at it's current pace. Hell, even if in my own mind I think that, women treated as commodities in most countries of Africa and the Middle East is far more important that trans-genderism. Is making a few first-worlders feel good about their body what countries should be spending their resources on? If the material needs of over 90% of the population were covered, I would then agree to try to fix the post-material issues like gender. However, even then, first world countries are likely to have material crises in the near future due to immigration if left unchecked (I'm not talking about terrorism, I'm talking about having a huge number of people not following the customs and culture of it's host country, creating a divide)

Even then, for what I've known, in countries where trans-genders are treated very well, they still have high rate of suicide and depression. It seems to me like we are trying to fix an issue that is deeper than them being socially accepted. In fact, I'd say that there's a huge pride in people concerned about this, since they believe they have found a way to fix a problem that we do not understand, this whole debate is built upon the concept of gender which is not well defined and no debate has set the rules, everything above it is just walking on eggshells to me.

I don't know why humanitarians are so interested in trans-genders when prisons, a bad school system, etc... are more pressing.

>>10758096
here comes the internet tough guy to protect his pretend children with his pretend muscles

>>10758301
>history has a moral direction
i hate this meme so much

>>10761050
>He doesn't understand the progressive unveiling of the Geist
Pleb

>>10760881
I thought I'd defined it enough earlier in the thread but we can clarify:
Gender is half of the dichotomy transgender theory splits what was once "sex" into. The two parts of that dichotomy are an objective, measurable trait (sex) and a subjective, immeasurable trait (gender) that is essentially a philosophical concept, and can be dealt with logically as one.
They outline gender as a quality of identity that is very similar in shape to the male/female binary (and as they're typically desperate to point out, everything potentially in between) but is completely independent of sex and can only be determined by the individual.
They claim gender is the trait expressed by an individual in masculinity/androgyny/femininity of the way they present themselves, yet they simultaneously state that it is not necessarily correlated with the resulting mixture of masculinity/androgyny/femininity in the self-presentation.
That is the clearest and purest definition I can give you. Speaking in purely logical terms, it is a perfectly coherent philosophical concept. The only two reasons you could give for not considering a philosophical concept to be meaningless are 1. you think it is incoherent or 2. you do not think unfalsifiable philosophical concepts can ever be meaningful. If your case is the ladder, making you a logical positivist, there is no helping you.

I did not say gender was an unfinished philosophy. I said the philosophies of most people who believe in gender as a genuine thing separate from sex are. The trouble lies in the conceptualization of the sex/gender schism in the first place. There is no argument or coherent thought process in favor of the derivation of gender (philosophical) out of sex(empirical) that doesn't also apply to every empirical identity trait as well. Race, age, attractiveness, species, etc. Gender exists as a consequence of its conceptualization, and the mechanism used to do so does the same to every other identity trait. You either need to accept all of it, or dispose of the mechanism.

>>10761066
>for not considering a philosophical concept to be meaningless
*to have meaning

Best thread on /lit/ right now

>>10761066
>They claim gender is the trait expressed by an individual in masculinity/androgyny/femininity of the way they present themselves, yet they simultaneously state that it is not necessarily correlated with the resulting mixture of masculinity/androgyny/femininity in the self-presentation.
this shit is like a fucking sphinx riddle

>>10761066

I'm really not sure where to begin with this. Not to sound rude, but if that was the "clearest and purest definition" you could give me, then I worry about your definition of 'clear' and 'pure.' Ironically, I actually agree with your given definition, because, well, you essentially paraphrased mine. But I think I've found the chink in the chain here. Your understanding of the whole issue seems to hinge on the idea that 'gender' is a 'philosophical concept,' and therefore must have meaning, and that if someone claims that it doesn't, it must be because of the two reasons you provided. Now, clearly we're misaligning on the meaning of 'meaning.' Calling a concept philosophical doesn't imbue it with meaning. Words have meaning in how they are interpreted and understood connotatively and denotatively. In the onslaught of identity politics, several cherished terms have been slain, in a sense. Gender is one of those words.

You provided two reasons to explain why I might make the claim the word is meaningless. I'm not sure why I need to say it again, but, number one: it's incoherent—! Utter cockamamie, balderdash, malarkey. And I don't mean that the 'philosophical concept' of gender as being causally unrelated to sex while also an expression of it. I mean that the word, as it is used, outside the realm of the abstract where it appears you think philosophical concepts function, has lost meaning. If something can mean anything, as in the case of gender and its endless multifarious uses that apparently relate to no empirical characteristic, then it means nothing. Obviously I'm referring only to its use in SJW circles.

>I said the philosophi...separate from sex are

But gender is separate from sex. However this is where the nuance comes in: it's is also *rarely* separate from sex. Most of the time, people express their gender in accordance with their sex.

>here is no argument...empirical identity trait as well.

Yes. There is. Here, let me ask you something: have you ever seen Tootsie? Mrs. Doubtfire? Tangerine? Boys Don't Cry? What do they have in common? They all represent people posing as the opposite sex...by adopting attributes of the opposite sex to alter their gender. Now, because we've acknowledged gender is a pliable characteristic because, due to the cultural reinforcements of gender norms, people can simulate whatever 'gender' they desire through very simple superficial means. You can take hormones and dress up as a woman and call yourself a woman and people will accept you as a woman. See: Caitlyn Jenner. Again, this is because gender is, to some extent, malleable. Sex isn't. Gender is. This is why it says sex on your passport. You know what else is on your passport? Your birthdate, your place of birth, your nationality, your height, etc. Unlike gender, those things cannot change. Just like sex. Yet, now gender has become so subject to change, it provides zero information. Things that provide zero info are meaningless. Get it?

>>10761058
>mfw when the Spirit gets bored so decides to forget itself again so we can start from the beginning

>>10761216
Your definition of gender is not one I've ever heard, and I grew up in fucking San Francisco. The fact that you think Tootsie and Mrs Doubtfire are about characters altering their gender means that we've got a long ways to go before we can agree on a definition of gender. I'm getting tired so I might have to clean this up in the morning but here are the points I want to get across
1. I should have used the word "description" instead of "definition." Very few of the gender radicals would call gender philosophical. I'm calling their concept philosophical because the concept the term means to them only has any validity at all as a philosophical concept.
2. Your definition of gender is not the one I've been arguing against, and you've made it clear you don't fully understand the description I gave you because it's really very different from yours, yet you don't seem to think so.
>Your understanding of the whole issue seems to hinge on the idea that 'gender' is a 'philosophical concept,' and therefore must have meaning
When I saying "meaning," I mean it means something, not that it's "meaningful." It's a definable, non-paradoxical concept, like a soul, or an archetype, or a value. And I never ever said it means something BECAUSE it is philosophical. I said it means something AND is philosophical.
>Calling a concept philosophical doesn't imbue it with meaning
Never claimed it does, I just said it CAN mean something without being rooted in objectivity
>In the onslaught of identity politics, several cherished terms have been slain, in a sense. Gender is one of those words.
It really hasn't though. Gender has evolved in the public discourse, but from the radical gender side of things, it's only been getting closer and closer to its pure "core" as people continue to use and defend the concept. That's what I mean by "clearest and purest." It's at the heart of the concept. Some people will have varying ideas, but it will all be centered around that core.
>Again, this is because gender is, to some extent, malleable. Sex isn't. Gender is.
They don't actually think this is intrinsically true, apart from those they call "genderfluid." They state that trans women didn't change genders, they always WERE women in gender, for example.
>Your birthdate, your place of birth, your nationality, your height, etc. Unlike gender, those things cannot change.
True
>Just like sex.
True
The point is that those traits and sex are all the objective traits, but gender and all its hypothesized counterparts are the purely identity-based sister components to the objective traits

>>10758377
Basically two trannies. One is so beta and perverted it takes his sissy fetish too far and thus becomes a disgusting male to dyke faggot. The other is a fairy so queer he takes the sissy pill as a child and ultimately becomes the perfect ladyboy futa. The second one should be coveted since it makes itself into the ultimate male fantasy while the first should be despised as it's betrayal of manhood is disgusting and pathetic. If I was King I'd make a harem of the latter and stone to death the former.

>>10761266

>purely identity-based sister components to the objective traits

Therefore meaningless—!

>>10761207 agrees with me: you're a very messy thinker! You speak of "purely logical terms," yet use none————! You strawman my Doubtfire reference for what?!

And still...you have yet to tell me how the term 'gender' is at all anything but meaningless! You 'describe' it, and then simply insist that as a 'philosophical concept' (which you don't bother to define, sorry, 'describe') it must be meaningful—! What is language of use? What are language games? And how do we play properly?!

And what does San Francisco have to do with anything? I just got back from there—!

And if a persons gender doesn't change after, let's say, a trans woman has surgery, then what does that say about the idea of gender? It refers to nothing but a feeling! Personal caprice isn't a basis for meaning!

¡Ay Caramba!

>>10761139
It's a miracle nobody in this thread has used the 'muh social construct' cop out argument, and there has been some actual philosophical discussion because of it.

For those who talk about biology as fixed, you seem to be unaware "biological essentialism" is widely rallied against among gendercrit crowd, for transgender scholars biology is also a fluid social construct

>>10761356
I’m well aware, and I refuse to address it beyond the acknowledgment of intersexuality as a rare occurrence

>>10761356
just how is biology a fluid social construct? I might understand how the definition of mammal or fungus has changed, but sex?
I don't think our parameters of sex have varied in the history of biology, and what varies are aspects that are probably too complex to study properly, maybe how we define and approach bacteria and viruses, however it's not like there has been a paradigm shift in the last 100 about our understanding of sex.

See, this might be the issue with equating science as a social construct, for as much as I am against elevating scientism as the world religion, some inconsistencies on one field or one aspect of a field doesn't translate to the whole scientific system being inconsistent, it highly depends on a case to case basis.

>author has clearly defined views on subject before deciding to study the literature
>his ‘research’ confirms the beliefs he had before starting his book


Hmm...

>>10757890
>If a male soul is born in a female body, then it makes sense to mutilate the female body to make it 'look like' the soul that inhabits it
Nice fucking argument. In fact, by definition, souls are immaterial, and therefore have no form.

>>10761535
It just so happens that he had the correct views

The question is not if gender dysphoria or transgenderism is true or not, the question is if we should be encouraging transition or not.

All the evidence says we should not be. Theres no point is reading another book OP, any other position is retarded.

>>10761036
But these freaks are definitely indoctrinating children with their gender ideology on a deliberate and systematic basis

>There’s this part of parenting that has to be active, it can’t just be like waiting … for your child to come out as counter-culture,” Kym said.

>The next day Elliott asked for magazines to make a collage about things people should know more about, adding glitter and photos of Beyonce and trans actress Laverne Cox next to words like bodies, consent, racism, gender, and decolonization -- which they asked for help writing.

http://m.metronews.ca/#/article/news/halifax/2017/02/06/gender-nonconforming-kid-elliott-educate-pop-up-school.html

>>10758987
I think the difference between being gay and being trans is that you don't need artificial surgery or hormones to be gay. That's the big red flag for me. I believe there can be very masculine women and very feminine men, I just don't see how a man can be a woman trapped in a man's body, that borders on hokey superstition and occurs nowhere else in nature.

>>10762150
>systematic basis
>Always cite the same 3 examples
Never change /pol/

>>10761820
> All the evidence
[citaion needed]

>>10761535
>it’s a point of view nearly every human has held since the beginning of our species up until a century ago
>turns out to be a tricky point of view to beat

>>10762631
I view transgenderism as a quasi religious and highly politicised social justice ideology based on the presumptions of social engineering, decolonization and Beyoncé

>>10762619
>occurs nowhere else
How would we know? Mr. Lizard, do you feel like a Mrs. Lizard yet? Hissss.
>nature
If I feel like it, I should be able to do it. Fuck nature.

>>10761820
Your post needs rearranging
The question is not if gender dysphoria is real or not, the question is if gender is truly independent of sex and one can not be determined from the other

>>10763396

And the answer is: gender is very strongly correlated to sex. Humans are sexually dimorphic. Culture reinforces this fact. A gentle nod to history verifies this. It isn't purely dependent, but very closely related. Why is this even a question.

>>10756913
Me, I learned more about trans and realized they are mentally ill and that is it. No surgery can change your sex. Trans reinforces gender stereotypes. Those pushing it onto kids need to be taken behind the woodshed.

>>10762150
Mentally ill mothers wanted little girls and got boys. make them into baby girls anyway.

>>10756805
I'm in favour of drugging little boys with estrogen and conditioning them until they turn into functioning sluts with dicks

>>10762762
>How would we know?

see if there's any cases of female animals performing male mating rituals or vice versa? irrelevant either way, my point is that mutilating somebody's vagina to turn it into some sort of makeshift penis just strikes me as wrong. it reminds me of some borderline gruesome and painful shit that people did in the Victorian era to appear prettier, like corsets that would squeeze women's intestines to the point that they starved, people intentionally mutilating themselves for the sake of attracting the opposite sex. and I don't care how much you want to say that "it's not for attracting others its for their own identity!" because if it was for their identity they wouldn't fucking care if they had a cock or a cunt, they'd be more concerned about being a legitimately good person rather than what genitals they had.

i wouldn't care if people had these surgeries behind closed doors and shut up about it but i see it fucking EVERYWHERE on the internet and i'm ACTIVELY trying to avoid this whole debacle, but it almost seems to be impossible in this day and age.

>If I feel like it, I should be able to do it

i don't think you want to go there, friendo, because that line of thinking justifies everything from child rape to bestiality.

>>10760167
only meant relative to the self-avowed voraciousness of their inwardly-directed commodity fetishism

>>10761218
>mood
>>implying the auto-alienating circularity of substance-subject is contingent

>>10763910
>gender
>existing
[citation needed]

>>10764058
you re a neoliberal?

>>10760259
>Transracialism doesn't even exist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs-EBrMqxv0


This is also why the tranny slippery slope terrifies me, i feel like i'm witnessing the total decay of western civilisation in real time. If they could just chop off their dicks and shut up about it I wouldn't care, but its like they are motivated by self righteousness and a shrill ideological will to debase society and shove their filth down peoples throats. these ''people'' definitely think they are better and more progressive than you just because they take it in the ass. The more I get bombarded with lgbt victim community propaganda, the more I unironically hate them.

>>10765352
>The more I get bombarded with lgbt victim community propaganda, the more I unironically hate them.
THIS

if there's ONE fucking sentence I can whittle down my political frustrations down to for this entire decade, it's this

Is it wrong to be pro-trans only if they're cute and passing?

>>10765417
>fetishising mental illness

>>10765417
I think we had all agreed all trannies are evil subhuman cultural marxist sex goblins who want to destroy you and gang rape your children.

>>10763910
how does one get from this relatively modest statement to the idea that transexuality is ""mental illness?"" especially when even so staunch an idiot as jordan peterson will acknowledge that the DSM is based on "family resemblances" between reported symptoms and is mostly not scientific?

>>10765702
because they want to cut their dicks off and they constantly kill themselves

>>10765702
I think the current wave of transgenderism is actually a product of leftist religious mania, kinda like the Skoptsy sect in 19th century russia who egged on by crazed hermit preachers mutilated their genitals out of religious fervor and hatred of sin, the modern transgender does so as a form of extreme virtue signalling egged on by Bill Nye, tumblr and academia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skoptsy

>>10765768
i was starting to wonder about this, is it ethical for an adult especially an authority figure to encourage a teen to become a trap? suppose they're into trannies and find it erotic? idk just seems like adults pushing kids to go trans is a little creepy maybe

>>10765768
the "currency" of such a "wave" implies already the historical (""socially constructed"") character of the phenomenon concerned.

>>10765791
interesting point...but i would point out there have been trans mother fuckers all through history it's just only recently they've become really passable

>>10765768
>It's everyone Else's fault!
IDK man, I am more OK with saying that people perceive themselves as "trans" just to fit in rather than everyone convinced themselves to become "trans".

>>10756805
I just feel intense pity for them tbch

>>10765768
exactly, it's religious extremism of the materialist variety. Just like most fundamentalists they don't understand their source texts beyond simple dogma. Muh jihad nigga : muh jesus hates fags n drugs nigga : muh science says I can cut my dick off an be woman nigga

>>10756762
I... I just got back from seeing Diet Cig, a silly hipster band, and holy shit. I had no idea the far left was where they are. There were no less than 5 announcements about trans acceptance and not making contact with someone without explicit consent. Like, fuck... it’s a good band. Who the fuck is there to look to in the public eye that has a reasonable perspective? Liberal means the opposite of liberal. Conservatives are anything but conservative in the literal sense. Fuck man. Let all this shit end. When will the physical world collapse in on itself? Did it miss its opportunity and force us into a world of backward reason? Can we fucking burn it all down yet? Will somebody please burn it all down?

>>10765291
The concept, though now thoroughly defunct, still exists ya wank

>>10757890
no because transsexuality is predicated upon a fascination with the body
>>10757971
this doesn’t work anymore try a new meme
>>10758156
no i don’t care
>>10758213
he’s helping you
>>10758237
kys
>>10758461
wow that’s a valid dilemma oh wait its not
>>10758791
ill reiterate i fucking hate dogs and people who think their dogs are special
>you’re not a human
thanks for the compliment anon

>>10766073
'gender' is like the leftist version of the catholic dogma of the trinity, it doesn't make sense and you are not supposed to understand it.You are supposed to accept it blindly as a testament of your faith on those poor transgenderfolk and their ''marginalised voices''. If you start asking too many questions, don't be surprised if they try and burn you at the stake.

>>10765801
trans is a wacky teenage fad that got way out of control, if leftists and the mainstream media hadn't gotten involved it would have petered out just like fidget spinners and grunge

>>10765702
>that transexuality is ""mental illness?"
You can use a less upsetting phrase like "mental disorder" if you'd like, but yes. It very much is. Transgender people are 22 times more likely than the general population to attempt suicide. A common argument is that the high suicide rate is attributed to discrimination, but that correlation is certainly not proven, as blacks do not have higher suicide rates than whites

>>10766166
That makes sense and is interesting. Thank you

>>10756805
Speak for your self god dammit if I had a child become trans I’d an hero in front of them

>>10766175
Also, the the rates of suicide between pre-op, post-op, and those who don't feel discriminated are all within roughly 2-5 percentage points of one another.

>>10758801
Just accept the following moderate stance:
Transgender people are mentally unsound
They have agency over their being and therefore every right to mutilate their bodies and larp as the other sex
Any laws that classify them as said other sex are unfair because there are biological differences between men and women
Any laws that do more than grant trans people the same rights as normal people are encroaching on normal people and unfair.
Trans people should have the right to a safe and free life, but not the right to make people pretend biology isn’t real, or even like them in the first place.

I personally also believe that they have a mental illness and that one day we’ll look back ashamed of ourselves as a society that we let them do this, but that’s not such a moderate view

>>10766208
Source?
“Don’t feel discriminated” is very subjective

>>10766220
Right but what better way to find out than a direct survey, hm?

>>10758337
>It only effects
>with whom they are
puke.jpg

>>10766114
Suppose you're right: do you just sit and take it? No, you call bullshit bullshit.

Why the fuck are dykes allowed to shoot prescribed test and not me? I demand equality

>>10756805
Don't fucking speak for me cunt.

To the people who support Blanchard in this thread, his typology is a complete fiction. There is no serious data to support this accurate a typology, it essentially postulates that it is impossible for an individual exhibiting autogynephillia to be exlucisevely attracted to men. Blanchard and his advocates have a long track record of simply accusing any transwoman who doesn't fit into their typology as lying about their personal experience. As such, it is inherently unfalsifiable and therefore unscientific -- it simply ignores and MTF tranny who doesn't fit the mould. That's not even to mention that it completely ignores FTM transexuals, although Blanchard's colleague Roy Flemming has decided to finally address this with a brand new attempt to invalidate trans people in the form of "rapid onset gender dysphoria", essentially claiming that all FTMs are impressionable girls who browsed tumblr to much. Their entire ideology, and it is that, an ideology, seems to be based around denying the legitimately of trans people, apart from the insultingly named HSTS (trans girls who are low IQ, exclusively attracted to men and who pass well, in other words, trannies who they all want to fuck). Seriously, anyone with an ounce of critical thinking would realise this man's typology has nothing to stand on.
>>10758942
>>10758967
any peer reviewed data I can find on transitioning shows that it improves quality of life for the afflicted, would like to see a single study to the contrary: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24344788

>>10766166
Dysphoria is the primary driver of suicide, as evidence by improvement in trans psychopathology and other quality of life indicators when treated: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24344788

>>10758277
Now you're getting it

>>10765805
It's definitely among the most interesting psychological disorders. I would probably befriend one out of anthropological curiosity.

Holy shit, since when are these threads on /lit/ not trap feet dumps? Is this a new meme?

>>10767560
/lit/ gets shit done sometimes

>>10756805
The many suicides that will result from children mistakenly believing themselves to have been suffering from gender dysphoria, undergoing HRT and surgery, only to finally regret it, will be blamed on people like you. Your disgusting ignorance and delusional thoughts of personal virtue will be recorded in history books and will be considered more horrific than the bloody witch hunts.

>>10765793
Back then it was one or two people with a rare neurological disorder, but it's become a dangerous politically correct fad over the last few years.

Who cares as long as they are cute

>>10769074
yeah i wont be surprised if like 20 years from now there is a big scandal with law suits, possible criminal indictments and a lot of 60 minute specials when this whole generation of trannies realized they were tricked into mutilating themselves during a vulnerable period in their lives by adults who should have been a voice of reason instead of a voice of degeneracy

did u guys see semi-famous b-list troll "asshurtmacfags" killed xerself last month?

http://chronicle.su/news/jaime-cochran-lived/

>>10770744
>http://chronicle.su/news/jaime-cochran-lived/

also i should add that zhe used to look like a chubby fratbro in college, but then the new tranny drugs worked wonders and she was like almost passible with some photoshop, i think her transition photos are a meme on whatever board trannies chill on to talk about tranny things

>>10758414
I can also personally confirm that it exists, but that it doesn't have to interfere with being a productive member of society looking forward to having children with his fiancee.

>>10757832
>In liberal places such as Sweden, Canada, San Francisco and the U.K. The regressive leftist PC police can drag you to jail for Hate Crimes if you refuse to have sex with Catman

How the fuck do you legitimately believe this? Is your only news source your unemployed aunt's facebook posts? I really hope this is bait, and not another retarded Paul Joseph Watson fan.

>>10758180
>Hey guys look this extreme hyperbole of a straw-man is stupid, so I guess all leftists are stupid?!!

Wow you really disproved em good there pal.

I've been researching this for a while.

There's some promising leads, but presently no conclusive evidence for transgenderism being inborn (i.e. a condition of the brain) rather than a choice.

However, we don't understand the entire brain, so there may very well one day be.

tl;dr: it might be fetishists, might be a birth defect, nobody knows.

>>10769074
>>10770731
You're half right. Yes, there will be an explosion of mental illness as a result of misdiagnosis of gender dysphoria, but nobody in positions of authority will connect the dots and say the misdiagnosis was the cause. Instead, they will not say anything out of fear of being called transphobic, or claim the cause was something else. They will then give these kids even more drugs, hormones, and behavioral conditioning to "fix" their problems. it would only result in more psychiatry, more social engineering, and more propaganda.

>>10770792
>http://www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm
:^)

>>10759310
You were making sense until the second paragraph you perverted freak

>>10766823
Do you support a more neutral typology of trans people though? Early brain scans do seem to suggest that there are two types of MtFs, homosexual and non homosexual.
>although Blanchard's colleague Roy Flemming has decided to finally address this with a brand new attempt to invalidate trans people in the form of "rapid onset gender dysphoria", essentially claiming that all FTMs are impressionable girls who browsed tumblr to much
Do you have any evidence of that?
I figured it was just detransitioner TERF's who made up that term, if so then fucking kek. Not sure why they can't just stick with AAP, it seems suitable enough with the level of manipulation that they do to fit everyone under AGP.
>>10756762
Seeing as we're talking about trans people, anyone here read nevada by imogen binnie?

Is it weird that I would have sex with a tranny but also think that it's wrong to encourage their delusions?

>>10770939
well, that's basically treating them like women, so it's probably more likely to enrage pol than weird. stop being an sjw soyboy i guess?

>>10770939
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27858199
>Indeed, men with GAMP scored much higher than controls on a measure of autogynephilia, or sexual arousal by the idea or fantasy of being a woman, which is also considered a variant of heterosexual attraction

>>10770953
delete this systemic bigotry right now

>>10771184
Someone should make a cultural marxist Bingo chart of words like
>hegemony
>social construct
>systemic
>privilege
>colonialism
>oppression
etc.