/lit/ - Literature

Definitely have, never made the connection.

Not sure if it is of any significance, but likely where he got the name.

Well done Anon

The weird thing is, no one has apparently ever thought of this. Really, try to google the relevant keywords---there's nothing. No one has ever noticed this.

>>1085933

its like you're a genius!!

Write a paper. Submit it to a journal. Become famous.

is not THAT fantastic.

Unless you can find some significant literary purpose behind why he used those characters for his name, I don't think it's important. Kind of an interesting idea though.

tangentially: what are a couple of guys named Gregory and Samson doing in fucking Italy?

>>1086011
Gay holiday?

>>1086005

It shows that Kafka was more directly influenced by Shakespeare than you would think, him being such a surrealist.

>>1086035
As you pointed out, his letters already say he read Shakespeare thoroughly. I fail to see any Shakespearean elements in The Metamorphosis specifically, but if you can find some, I'd be eager to know what you've found. I think I remember reading somewhere that one of Shakespeare's favorite poets was Ovid, which is kind of interesting because, as you may or may not know, Ovid wrote a poem called Metamorphoses. Just a weird connection.

>>1086057

Yeah, that's probably true. It is weird though, you've gotta admit.

Too late OP, I have already submitted your idea and taken credit for it.
Next time, don't post it on the internet.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN

>>1086581
Like I said earlier, it doesn't mean anything. If that is indeed where he got the name, from what I can tell, it has no bearing on the story. But again, I'd be interested to hear from anyone who could point out how I'm wrong.

Gregory and Samson: act tough and then die
Gregor samsa: Acts tough and then dies

>>1086586
on a more serious note, perhaps its a premonition. the more astute readers will make the connection with Romeo and Juliet and then realize the fate of Gregor.

I found metamorphosis more interesting on my second read knowing the ending.

>>1086590
That's a sensible suggestion.

>>1086590
Although its probably nothing, I always though Kafka was lazy with his characters' names. I mean, he called one of them K. for Gods sake (later revealing that K. was actually... KAFKA. no shit).

>>1086035
>>1086035
>>1086035
>>Kafka
>>surrealist

>>1088038
>hasn't read The Trial

>>1088044
>>1088044
>>1088044
>doesn't understand PURE PSYCHIC AUTOMATISM

>>1088053
>Doesn't understand Kafka
man I'm so tired of you philistines

>>1085959
>>1085959
>>1085959
>>1085959
>>1085959
>>1085959
>>1085959
>>1085959
fucking this Anon. This is the shit that gets you tenured. DO ET NAO!

>>1088053
>has only read the wikipedia entry on surrealism
uh i suppose Lautreamont wasn't a surrealist?

>>1088062
you'd be right. He's an influence on the surrealists. You don't call the Ramones a hardcore band for influencing Minor Threat do you?

Interesting connection....I'm going to bring this up with some of my professors and find out.

>>1088074
I don't engage in nominalism at all, but I suppose I have to concede that to you. At any rate, surrealism cannot be localized within its specific historicized context (unless you are hoping to write a rudimentary account of certain facts) Also the link between the Ramones and Minor threat is far more tenuous than the one between Lautreamont and Artaud. At any rate, you are right to say kafka wasn't a surrealist, because he didn't join the surrealist international or whatever they were calling themselves.

Kafka wasn't a surrealist in the way that Camus wasn't an existentialist.
And everybody knows Camus was an existentialist.

>>1088097
I enjoyed this argument. More talks about surrealism and its context on /lit/ I say. I just don't see Kafka as a surrealist as, although he was fond of juxtapositions of seemingly unrelated objects/scenarios, he did not seek to use these to juxtapositions to blur the line between realism and sur-realism, as a writer like let's say Desnos would.

'The name "Gregor Samsa" appears to derive partly from literary works Kafka had read. The hero of The Story of Young Renate Fuchs, by German-Jewish novelist Jakob Wassermann (1873–1934), is a certain Gregor Samsa'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Samsa

might as well add your speculation too

>>1088109
I was thinking of kafka as a surrealist more for how his imagery related directly to the psyche of the character/creator. He definitely didn't have the same intentions as the surrealists, and really you could argue that he had more of an influence on the German/swiss expressionist movement (who were contemporaries of the surrealist/dadaist movements but almost in opposition to them the expressionists were more mystic/spiritual vs. the surrealists attachment to psychology/psychoanalysis)

>>1088146
I agree, this seems very true. A lot of his imagery relates not only as a physical description of the character, but as another commentary in and of itself, (for example, Samsa's emotional collapse when squished at the end of the novel). I think it is safe to say that Kafka's imagery and descriptions are representative of the characters both inner and outer status.

>>1088146
>>1088146
Yes I definitely would call Kafka closer to the expressionists than anything.
Speaking of mysticism and surrealism, have you read anything by the Le Grand Jeu group (Rene Daumal, Roger Gilbert-Lecomte etc)? They were on the fringes of surrealism, almost like a little brother, but definitely focused more on mysticism and esoterica than their counterparts. Closer to Artaud than Breton, I'd say.

>>1088171
ah I absolutely have to check this out because breton was a beeotch amirite? thanks for this recommendation, it is what i've been looking for without knowing it if you know what i mean. i am a real fan of the expressionists first i think and the surrealists are almost secondary (closet christfag you know)

>>1088224
You're welcome. Black Mirror by Roger Gilbert-Lecomte is one of my favourite books of poetry.
Closet Christfag huh? You may be interested to know there was a member of the surrealists who was a defrocked priest: Jean Genbach. Here he is arguing about the soul and love: http://www.jonathanames.com/blog/archive/literary/2004_05_09_archive.html
And yes, Breton was a cunt. Expelling poor Artaud for dabbling in the theatre and Desnos for writing alexandrines. Prick. Oh, and Matta for disagreeing about a Tarot Card.

>>1088053
I don't think Surrealism can purely be defined as 'pure psychic automatism' though this was breton's definition for it at one point. Surrealism's purpose, stance and definition changed and morphed quite a bit throughout the Surrealist movement of the the 1920s/30s. And there is a debate over whether something not from that movement can be called Surrealist. I would say Kafka has surrealist aspects - i.e. presenting absurd ideas - but he has more symbolism (isn't Metomorphosis an allegory for capitalism?) whereas, as the above poster has said, Surrealism was more about question reality and surreality and the validity of each.

>>1086598
K. and Josef K.

Not really lazy, simply what becomes of unfinished works.

>>1088248
wow you should come to /lit/ more often. i have wanted to know information like this about the surrealists for some time now to no avail. for now i have to go ;_;

>>1088248
He also kicked them out cos they played around with drugs. Breton thought the mind should remain 'pure'.

It was fun discussing whether the brain can still be pure on natural drugs like weed or opium with my lecturer - especially when he was arguing that it can because these drugs are natural when some hippy girl was saying that drugs are bad.

>>1088263
I'm here all the time, it's just that it's not often that I step into a discussion, because, frankly, lots of the stuff here is trollery or not to my interest. But if a thread like this comes along I can't help but post (:
For a good into, pick up Patrick Waldberg's book on surrealism, if it's still in print. Full of photos and essays by and about the surrealists. It has an index at the back of many major and minor surrealists, it's what got me started.
I also reccomend the blog ajourneyroundmyskull.com, it's mainly images these days but dig back and you'll learn heaps about the avant-garde of the past 150 years.

>>1088279
Yet he was a drinker and occasional partaker in opium himself? Plus the fact that the holy trinity of surrealism, De Nerval, Rimbaud and Jarry were all fond of psychoactives makes him come out looking like a hypocrite.
He kicked Desnos out for writing journalism I thought? Desnos has a piece called The Third Manifesto which rips a hole into Breton.

>>1088287
Patrick Waldberg saved my dissertation. J.H. Matthews is good on Surrealism too, especially 'Surrealism, Insanity and Poetry'.

>>1088298
He probably gave him the boot for a combination of things. I remember reading something, maybe a letter, of Breton's describing Desnos on drugs and that he feared for his safety. He thought that in order to be production you had to be able to come back to sanity and worried that too many drugs would push one over the edge into complete madness. Plus didn't Desnos try to stab someone whilst high?

>>1088309
in order to be productive*

i'm rubbish today

>>1088309
I don't know about the stabbing thing, but Rene Crevel was notorious for trying to incite violence during his trances. He attempted to start a mass suicide during one trance. He later killed himself, possibly because Breton disagreed about his sexuality.
Breton was right about drugs pushing people over to madness though - Artaud's taking of peyote while with the Tarahumaras probably did not help his mental state at all, poor guy. Not to say that he wouldn't have ended up incarcerated anyway, he was a bit of a lost cause methinks.

>>1088319
It's what he wanted though. He completely rejected the regular body and constantly wanted to push it to its limits and alter it. He might have been mad but wrote some very interesting stuff and wonderful ideas. Madness/Genius - its a fine line.

>>1088335
Definitely a fine line.
I love Artaud, don't get me wrong, it's just that his whole life seemed so tragic, dead siblings, drug addictions, mental breakdowns everywhere, sexual confusion, incarceration, electroshock, homelessness. I can't help but feel a sinking in my stomach when reading some of those later works, all the anguish and torment just bleeds through the page.
He does say in one of his Rodez letters how he seeks TRUE poetry like Villon, Baudelaire, Rimbaud, the poetry of experience, so yeah, he wanted it I guess. It's like he fed himself on negativity until it created a positive, if you get what I'm saying.

>>1088352
It's a classic case of someone with a life full of torment having a brilliant creative output. God I'm loving these intellectual discussions rather than the standard Ayn Rand bashing threads.

>>1088372
I know right, this is what I want from /lit/
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3806/is_200005/ai_n8893843/ you may be interested in this, it talks about the way suicide was mythologized by the dadas and surrealists. Someone described Artaud as a living suicide, that's what made me think of this.

>>1088393
nice, i've bookmarked it for later

if you're interested in more artaud i'd recommend this book by my old lecturer, it contains lots of articles about artaud from breton to derrida to sontag.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Antonin-Artaud-Critical-Edward-Scheer/dp/0415282551/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s
=books&qid=1283219883&sr=8-2

>>1088440
thankyou sir. I have the Sontag essay, it's the introduction to Artaud's Selected Works. Rather enlightening.
Well this has been a great discussion, but I must go now. More talk on /lit/ about surrealism I say!