/lit/ - Literature

>>11282056
They had several different explanations. The basic theme was that the Jews were unfaithful and were being punished, part of which was losing their unique status as the chosen people. The most extreme version of it is in the epistle of Barnabas, where the author says the old testament law was all meant to teach moral precepts but the legalistic Jews misunderstood and took it literally, basically saying that they were never the chosen people. Tatian said that the Jews lost their chosen status when the first set of tablets were destroyed after the golden calf incident, he believed that the second set of tablets represented the new covenant God would make with the gentiles. He later became a gnostic however. Justin Martyr's view was probably the standard one, that the Jews lost their chosen status with the arrival of Jesus, and their loss was concluded by the destruction of the Jerusalem temple in 70 AD.

>>11282056
christianity would not have had any legitimacy in the ancient world if it didn't have a respectably old tradition to justify its existence.

>>11282056
Jews created Christianity and then Greeks and Romans promulgated it.
>>11282091
it was founded by Jews
>>11282082
it was founded by Jews, Christ is Jewish and so is Mary

>>11282091

But Jesus literally changed, (in NT terms fulfilled), the old tradition. Isn't that the whole point of christianity? Of being something new by throwing the shackles of understanding from people who didn't understand the purpose god has for humanity?

>>11282098
Nationality didn't work like that in ancient times. Jesus spoke Aramaic, and since he was not a pharisee, ergo the spiritual ancestors of today's jews, he was not jewish.

>>11282102
all of Jesus’s ancestors were racially Jewish as were Mary’s and his disciples were also primarily racially jewish. Aramaic was a lingua franca in that region, you are just making shit up. All evidence point to him being a real jewish mystic who started a movement in Judea among Jews, citing David as his ancestor and being of Mary, a Jewess.

Beware of the Leaven of the Pharisees

>>11282102
His culture, religion and ancestry were Jewish. Aramaic was the lingua franca of the region at that time, it had little to do with nationality. The Talmud is written in Aramaic, does that mean the rabbis weren't Jewish? He was circumcised, went to the Jerusalem Temple with his parents, taught in the synagogue, read the jewish scriptures, was descended from king David, etc. etc.

>>11282116
>Disciples: Durr he's talking about bread

>>11282109
Nationality doesn't work on genes.

Being a jew today means upholding the phariseic school of thought, something which Jesus opposed. Back then he was literally called a galilean in his time, not a jew.

>>11282148
> The Talmud is written in Aramaic, does that mean the rabbis weren't Jewish?

Stop mixing together religion and nationality and throwing it into the past. Africans and ancient Egyptians also practiced circumcision, by your logic and other's, it means the ancient egyptians were jews?

And he never claimed to be descendant from anyone, that's just something being attributed to him by whoever wrote the Gospels to construct the NT narrative of him being the messiah, as per the instructions in the OT

>>11282056
Jesus showed that the Jews were practicing wrong. They got so BTFO by Jesus being indisputably the messiah that Judaism ceased to exist for over 500 years until it was reformed as Rabbinic Talmudism based on the "Oral Torah" which was basically an excuse to make some shit up that disputed Jesus.

>>11282187
The disciples did seem pretty dumb at times.

>>11282506

>BTFO by Jesus being indisputably the messiah

This sounds like wishful thinking lol. From what I've read, the Jewish conception of "messiah" is simply an entirely different character than what the Christians conceived. If anything they were just really annoyed that people were celebrating the wrong guy. The Jewish messiah, iirc, is meant to be a military leader who will unite all nations under Judaism and bring world peace. Jesus simply didn't fit he bill.

>>11282584
>Jesus simply didn't fit he bill

Neither did the Israelites. They basically appropriated the universal transcendent god of the Zoroastrians during the babylonian exile to fit their narrow tribalistic goals of achieving tribal unity. Which is why the instructions for the messiah are written to be specifically meant for an israelite person. It's quite primitive really.

If anything, Jesus was the one who truly understood the transcendent nature and universality of god and made sure to practice what he preached. And my personal theory is that somewhere during the 30 years omitted in the NT, he acquired the knowledge of the zoroastrian god somehow, which basically changed his entire conception of god.

>>11282584
>From what I've read, the Jewish conception of "messiah" is simply an entirely different character than what the Christians conceived
Because they misinterpreted God thinking that he was going to wipe Rome off the map and gift them the entire world. Which was a rather dumb expectation.

>>11282187

>>11282646
>>11282116
>>11282187

Non-Christian here. What is the deal with the bread as a metaphor for Christ's body?

>>11282830
>non-christian

What are you doing with your life?

>>11282915
Carefully observing how christians devolve into contradictory chaos so they could finally realize that the most up-to-date version of their faith is found in Islam.

>>11282830
> metaphor
prots are a mistake

>>11282109
>all of Jesus’s ancestors were racially Jewish
No, all were semitic but not all Jewish.

>>11283012
How's it meant to be taken literally then?

>inb4 bread can actually represent someone's body

>>11283048
Y’see, an omnipotent deity can do some whack shit.

>>11282959
>up-to-date
More like a conservative Nestorian Christian sect desu. I don't mean that as a value judgmenet, if you like that sort of stuff, sure why not. Ever noticed how similar muslims are to the Orthodox?

>>11282915
Do you have any idea how amazing it feels to not be trapped in abrehamic dogmas? The air feels fresher, the sky is bluer.

>>11283153
>Ever noticed how similar muslims are to the Orthodox?
No, because I actually know something about Orthodoxy. Protestantism on the other hand...

>>11283169
>Protestantism on the other hand...
What did she/he/xir mean by this? I imagine you're thinking about theology, I wasn't really. Or iconoclasm. European protestants barely care about that anymore.

>>11283153
>More like a conservative Nestorian Christian sect

What did he mean by this?

>>11282056
>The israelites rejected Jesus as the Christ and his message
A ton of Israelites became Christians you dumb ass.

>>11282056
Romans appreciated antiquity. The early christians tried to usurp the antiquity of the jewish people in order to hustle for status. Also Jesus being framed as a jewish messiah

>>11282102
Dont be a dumb dumb. The Sadducees and the qumran community werent jews either in your definition. All pharisees were were conservative reactionaries to Hellenistic incursions into their culture.

You have to appreciate the extent to which the Resurrection changed everything. It was really an extremely big deal.

>>11282501
Christ was a practicing Jew who held the sabaath you revisionist parasite mongrel
>>11283046
All of Christ’s ancestors were Jews, unless this is some retarded way of referencing Abraham and Noah who were pre-covenant, then you’re wrong. His entire lineage goes back to Isaac, David, Jacob. Mary is explicitly referenced as being Jewish in the NT

>>11284207
>>11284202
>biblical literalists

>>11284298
>i can just make shit up about my religious figures that directly contradicts historical evidence, common sense and the bible itself
wow really makes you think!

The Tanakh was canon because it was old and had a lot of words, both things that were very impressive and authoritative back when the Greeks and Romans could only trace their own writings back a few hundred years

>>11282506
>Jesus was the Jewish messiah!!!!
He doesn't fulfill any of the fucking requirements for that. He's a heretic to our faith. You're the retard for thinking that "HURR JEWS DELIBERATELY REJECT THE MESSIAH" when Jesus didn't meet the requirements.

>>11284318
>the Resurrection happened
>jesus' genealogy isnt unprovable fanfiction

would LOVE to see your sources establishing the either as anything but matters of faith

>>11285055
The Resurrection comes across as something that, at the very least, those who witnessed it were very convinced actually happened. Whether they were being fooled or not is one thing, but they seem to have been convinced enough of it themselves.

>>11284332
>The Tanakh was canon because it was old and had a lot of words, both things that were very impressive and authoritative back when the Greeks and Romans could only trace their own writings back a few hundred years

The Jews stole their whole schtick from the Zoroastrian Persians after they freed them from slavery in Babylon in the 6th century BC. Before that there is 0 proof that Judaism contained any of its defining features and then suddenly after that all these doctrine which were already in Zoroastrianism like heaven/hell good vs. evil, angels/demons and a resurrection and final judgment all appear 'coincidentally' in Judaism.

If Abrahamics had any self-respect they would either just become Zoroastrian or at least come clean and admit that everything of importance in the Abrahamic religions comes from it. The Jews were just another one of dozens of typical levant cults until the Persians remade their religion in the image of Zoroastrianism (as they were known to do with other subjects) or until the jews simply stole it.

>>11285118
where can I read more about this?

I always have to laugh when christcucks on /pol/ claim christianity is not related to jewishness in any way.

>>11284860
>He doesn't fulfill any of the fucking requirements for that.

>>11285175
Isaiah 1:26: "And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City." Some Jews[9] interpret this to mean that the Sanhedrin will be re-established." (Isaiah 1:26)
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11–17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8–10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)
The "spirit of the Lord" will be upon him, and he will have a "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
The people of Israel will have direct access to the Torah through their minds and Torah study will become the study of the wisdom of the heart (Jeremiah 31:33)[10]
He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)

>>11285204
>Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance.
There are many Christian leaders both now and throughout history who look to the Bible for guidance

>The whole world will worship the One God of Israel
2/3rds of the world are Christian/Muslim so pretty much

>He will be descended from King David
Yep

>The "spirit of the Lord" will be upon him, and he will have a "fear of God"
Yep

>Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership
Yep

>Knowledge of God will fill the world
This has happened. Jesus is the most recognizable name in the world.

>He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations
Yep

>All Israelites will be returned to their homeland
Happened eventually after a period of exile for rejecting the messiah. Really the only reason they were allowed back was to fulfil end times prophecy.

>Death will be swallowed up forever
Jesus conquered death, absolutely true

>All of the dead will rise again
Second coming prophecy

>He will be a messenger of peace
I'd definitely characterise Jesus as a messenger of peace

Overall it looks like you've strongly supported the case of Jesus being the messiah.

>>11285144

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/15283-zoroastrianism

>Most scholars, Jewish as well as non-Jewish, are of the opinion that Judaism was strongly influenced by Zoroastrianism in views relating to angelology and demonology, and probably also in the doctrine of the resurrection, as well as in eschatological ideas in general

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2010/jul/13/abrahamic-religion-zoroastrian-judaism

>The first encounter between the ancient peoples who developed historical Judaism and the Persian religious ideas of Zoroastrianism seems to have come either during or shortly after the captivity in Babylon. It was the Persian king of kings, Cyrus, who liberated the Hebrews from Babylon and one of his successors, Darius, who organised and funded the return of some of the captives (probably along with many Persians) to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem. Nehemiah and Ezra also reorganised the traditional religion of the Judaeans and Israelites. What emerged was a stricter monotheistic version which was consistent with basic beliefs of the Persian imperial religion – Zoroastrianism.

>Those who might doubt how Persian imperial policy so decisively shaped what we know as Judaism should reflect on the remarkable and first ever declaration of belief in one, universal God by the biblical writer known as "Second Isaiah" during this period. Indeed Isaiah describes King Cyrus as a "Messiah" and the chosen instrument of Yahweh. Interestingly there is evidence that the Persian imperial policy towards the religion of their subject peoples – to allow the traditional name of their gods to be retained but to revise the religions themselves in the image of Zoroastrianism – was also applied in Babylon and Egypt as well as Palestine.

>Some claim that a belief in monotheism in Judea developed a little before the Babylonian conquest and exile. But although there is evidence for a centralisation of the different Canaanite-style cults into the worship of Yahweh in the capital – Jerusalem – over this period the most which can be said was that a form of monolatry, a belief in one God for a particular people had emerged.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1464919?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

There are various academic articles on it, before 6th century BC judaism was just another tribal cult, then after they were freed from babylon by the Persians they lived under Persian rule for 400 years and Judaism basically transformed into Zoroastrianism. The reason it isn't more widely known and talked about IMO is because it obviously makes many Jews and Christians uncomfortable and because Jews are too self-rightous and self-absorbed to admit they were never the chosen people but just adopted a foreign religion (the egypt/exodus part of the OT story was already shown to be BS by archaeology anyway btw).

>>11285222
You forgot the other ones
Also, Jesus was never buried in a shared grave, etc.
Please stop trying to convince me that a heretic was the Messiah. It's not gonna work, dude.

>>11285246
He rose from the dead whether you like it or not, Anon.

>>11285248
>was not in a shared grave
>anecdotal evidence

>>11285262
>was not in a shared grave
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock-cut_tombs_in_ancient_Israel

>>11282102
Of course he was you stupid ass punk and of course nationality worked like that

>>11285234

Christianity literally has to go back to it's true roots then. Assimilate the remaining jews too.

>>11282619
quit talking out your ass bitch

>>11285118
Stop talking like it's not just some noname academics who believe that you utter idiot. You're just spewing non sense (resurrection is not in the Tanakh, entire books of the Bible like Job, Isaiah, psalms are 100% hebrew) mixed with banalities (hey guys uh this might sound weird but you know that place where
80% of jews lived for centuries, the literal superpower of the time, yeah, uh, maybe it influenced judaism what do you think)

I swear, goyischsprach about the Torah is getting ridiculous

Judaism is just a rip off of Sumerian and Egyptian pagan religions

Christianity is just a mix of Judaism and European paganism.

Islam is just a rip off of Christianity mixed with Arab paganism

>>11285534
The essence of christianity comes from the ancient greek's philosophies + zoroastrian monotheistic god

>>11285449
don't hold your breath waiting

>>11285483
None of the major doctrines of Judaism appear before the 7th-6th century BC, they all appear after the Jews were freed by the Persians and then were ruled by them for ~400 years. It's pretty clear what happened.

>>11285534
This>>11285676 and also Islam was more directly influenced by Judaism than Christianity.

>>11285880
That's just stupid, "Judaism" is not a bunch of coherent doctrines, that's modern (rabbinic) judaism, Ancient Judaism is a set a books (no Talmud yet) that contradict each other, and a bunch of orally transmitted interpretations thereof, with a people, and the book has clearly a lot of original things, or were the Psalms composed by some magi? or was the story of king David (historical figure that predates persia by a good half of a millenium) and his contemporaries? You don't know what you're talking about. saged.

>>11285893
>>11285880
You're just pushing an agenda

>>11285055
the point is that Jesus of Nazareth was a Jewish man, Mary was a Jewish woman, his ancestors were racially Jewish, Aramaic was spoken as a lingua franca in the region and Christ is depicted as going to Synogogue to observe religious customs, and his mother is described as having a Jewish family background. The God that he mentions, the God of Abraham and Isaac, Moses and David, is Jewish and for Jews. Christ was racially and religiously Jewish, he just rejected the Pharisees and Roman rule. That’s it.
>>11285234
If i was less depressed i would add my link about Kaballah, but i don’t buy that Judaism is ripped off completely from Zoroastrianism. Much of it is Babylonian and Persian, but much of it is Caananite, Chaldean, and also Egyptian.
>>11285676
yes, but there are heavy Jewish and Egyptian elements to it.

>>11285940
was meant for this moterfucker too: >>11285676

>>11285676
Jesus was Jewish. Deal with it.

>>11285946
>If i was less depressed i would add my link about Kaballah, but i don’t buy that Judaism is ripped off completely from Zoroastrianism. Much of it is Babylonian and Persian, but much of it is Caananite, Chaldean, and also Egyptian.

The main doctrines that define it are but I'd agree that much of the mysticism, myths and later esoterism did indeed came partially from other sources in the region.

>>11285940
Listen anon I know you find it upsetting but it's better to face the truth instead of plugging your ears and sticking your head in the sand. Sidetrack all you want about rabbinical Judaism and all the rest, it's irrefutable that none of the defining features of Judaism have any solid evidence for their being part of the religion until the very moment that the Jews were then freed by and then ruled for 400 years by foreigners with a religion that had already long contained those same doctrines, who were coincidentally known to remake the religion of their subject peoples in the image of Zoroastrianism, it's as clear as day what happened. If anything you should be grateful that I've enlightened you as to the actual source of your religious beliefs so that you can now go study the real thing.

>>11282056
modern "Judaism" is Talmudism, Christianity is perfect continuation of ancient Judaism

>>11286047
You have such a mix of general idiocy, ignorance of how philological enquiry is made and condescendance that it's rather delightful. You're clueless though, and you responded to my obvious refutation with some children's talking and another layer of unsourced ramblings. Yes the Jews are responsible for most of the Bible, yes they were literary genius, yes they stood on the shoulders of their predecessors, yes Jesus was Jewish, as well as everybody in the entire Bible sans like three guys. Deal with it.

>>11286702
>You have such a mix of general idiocy, ignorance of how philological enquiry is made and condescendance that it's rather delightful. You're clueless though, and you responded to my obvious refutation with some children's talking and another layer of unsourced ramblings. Yes the Jews are responsible for most of the Bible, yes they were literary genius, yes they stood on the shoulders of their predecessors, yes Jesus was Jewish, as well as everybody in the entire Bible sans like three guys. Deal with it.

Lol you didn't respond to any of the points I made or refute anything. Abrahamic traditions are all one big Zoroastrian larp. Deal with it.

>>11286950
What if Zoroastrism was influence by Judaism instead?

>>11287897

[citation needed]

>>11288256
I don't think you can quote things done behind humanitie's back in the field of faith.

>>11288275

Religion is more about a specific methodology of knowing. Faith is something jews came up with.

>>11288278
Can't religion be a specific methodology of trying to define faith?

>>11286950
Are you serious? It is you who ignored all the refutations I've provided in my previous post you dumb ass inbred motherfucker

>>11288278
Quit talking up your ass like that for heaven's sake

>>11288306

Faith - Something might or might not be true, but for it to be true by default, a little leap of logic is necessary from the part of someone.

Religion - Acquiring new information for expanding your understanding of spiritual reality based on a specific scientific methodology.

And the first ever monotheistic religion was based exactly on that.

>>11288327
Fuck off, jew.

>>11288331
So what you're saying faith is exclusively for the Jews?

>>11288364

It's something they implemented giving a whole new dimension when it came to the monotheistic faith

>>11282056
so here's the thing: christianity and hellenised and then paganised. it's not "israelite" anymore, it's european.

>>11288401
*was hellenised

It's a thoroughly European story about imaginary people in a foreign country.

>>11288404
How's it foreign if they were part of the same empire?

>>11288406
so you're saying it's definitely even more european than I was already saying it was. never thought about it that way.

>>11288412

The entire idea of one singular transcended god being flanked by good and evil in constant battle was set into motion by Zaratuștra as a reaction to the increasingly polytheistic teachings of the Vedas from his time.

Jews appropriated and mixed this idea with various other local ideas during their babylonian exile which made god as a deeply personal entity who calls you to kill your own son and whatnot.

Then jesus was born and set the concept back to it's original path.

It's definetly part of the larger indo-aryan-european heritage.

>>11282646

>>11288429
yes, i agree with that assessment. i still wonder why it's not accepted history. even though all facts are out there, it seems as if that coherent rendition isn't.

>>11288441
>Christ used a metaphor when speaking in the NT therefor the OT creation story is also a metaphor.

>>11288445
Maybe the facts aren't as out there as you think.

>>11288441
brainlet here, can someone explain

>>11288455
>the OT creation story is either a metaphor or it literally happened

Oh sweetie...

>>11283048
>He doesn't understand substance theory and Transubstantiation

>>11288441
Who else here /realityofthevirtual/