/lit/ - Literature

>>11724763
Because we love hedonism.

You desire to LIVE "according to Nature"? Oh, you noble Stoics, what fraud of words! Imagine to yourselves a being like Nature, boundlessly extravagant, boundlessly indifferent, without purpose or consideration, without pity or justice, at once fruitful and barren and uncertain: imagine to yourselves INDIFFERENCE as a power--how COULD you live in accordance with such indifference? To live--is not that just endeavoring to be otherwise than this Nature? Is not living valuing, preferring, being unjust, being limited, endeavouring to be different? And granted that your imperative, "living according to Nature," means actually the same as "living according to life"--how could you do DIFFERENTLY? Why should you make a principle out of what you yourselves are, and must be? In reality, however, it is quite otherwise with you: while you pretend to read with rapture the canon of your law in Nature, you want something quite the contrary, you extraordinary stage-players and self-deluders! In your pride you wish to dictate your morals and ideals to Nature, to Nature herself, and to incorporate them therein; you insist that it shall be Nature "according to the Stoa," and would like everything to be made after your own image, as a vast, eternal glorification and generalism of Stoicism! With all your love for truth, you have forced yourselves so long, so persistently, and with such hypnotic rigidity to see Nature FALSELY, that is to say, Stoically, that you are no longer able to see it otherwise-- and to crown all, some unfathomable superciliousness gives you the Bedlamite hope that BECAUSE you are able to tyrannize over yourselves--Stoicism is self-tyranny--Nature will also allow herself to be tyrannized over: is not the Stoic a PART of Nature? . . . But this is an old and everlasting story: what happened in old times with the Stoics still happens today, as soon as ever a philosophy begins to believe in itself. It always creates the world in its own image; it cannot do otherwise; philosophy is this tyrannical impulse itself, the most spiritual Will to Power, the will to "creation of the world," the will to the causa prima.

>>11724763
There is no instruction manual to life. Stoicism is a form of delusion, one that privates you from many of the joys of life.

stoics are to diogenes what 12 rules for life is to nietzsche

>>11724777
Nietzsche is gay
You are gay

>>11724809
Yep, that's going in my non-argument folder

>>11724819
>>11724777
Yep, that's going in my insufferable edgy contrarian folder.

>>11724763
Because "stoicism" as /lit/ knows it is a complete meme spouted by groyper Twitter accounts with Latin names in their handles and statues for profile pictures.

>>11724780
>>11724768
False. There is more joy in temperance and being aware of what's at your disposal, than falling slave to your impulses and regretting it later

>>11724763
Stoicism = gay atheists that are "too tough" for existentialism.

Find God, anon, and you will have the strength enough to not need gay philosophies like stoicism.

>>11724780
Also stoicism is exactly the opposite to "delusion"; one of its base tenets is reflecting upon everything in your life, and not taking anything for granted - to be deluded is to do the opposite. Acknowledging that you should be thankful for your possessions is supposed to bring you joy, as opposed to seeing them as these boring things that are "just there", not able to rile any emotions within you, and just following the next "better" thing, that's going to again, bring you a bit of joy when you acquire it/reach it, then just become boring and ordinary.

>>11724852
The Greco-Roman writings on stoicism frequently mention a "God" or "Nature" that keeps the world orderly. You can substitute in your own brand of "God(s)" (tm), or if you're an atheist, the "mathematical order of the universe" or whatever. It doesn't matter.

Also Christianity ripped off the stoic virtues and added their own gay "hope" and "faith".

>>11724763
its b0ring senpai

>>11724930
explain

>>11724777
lost any sliver of respect I still had for this faggot
germans should've been gassed long ago. It's the level of simplification and misinterpretation is at the level of the communist whore who did pic related

>>11724968
I'm tired and that came out retarded. Point still stands

>>11724763
Stoicism is Cynicism for soft bourgeois cunts with less practise and more theory.

>>11725102
>being a smelly unpleasant hobo that leeches off society like a parasite takes stronger character than having a duty to your community as a core tenet

>>11724763
because /lit is intellectual 4chan and thinks of itself as above other boards. /pol is contrarian by nature, therefore /lit must be contrarian^2. Rather than simply taking contrarian viewpoints and enhancing them, or even better looking at things logically, some /lit posters become reverse double contrarians in the way that /his posters do for their subject with "anti-wherehaboos"

>>11724763
stoica react like tradfags and acc’s and every other meme cult so they are continually harrassed, ive never seen a stoic respond with the vaguest sense of poise or maturity to a strong critique of their ideology. Also, not coincidental that everyone who subscribes to it is ugly, weak, stupid and boring.

>>11724968
>woman leaves
Sounds about right

>>11725186
Going against the grain does require a stronger character than basing your whole life around being a good boy by civic standards.

>>11725192
This
evidence: >>11724809
>>11724833
>>11724968

>>11725202
So being a contrarian teenager that submits to his impulses and ignorance, and calls that "revolutionary" and "it's just a phase dad", requires stronger character than taking control of your instincts and living a rational life?

>>11724763
Because the leftists on /lit/ are a bunch of degenerates who can't imagine what it's like controlling their emotions.

>>11725214
I don’t understand why you would engage in argument with someone if you’re going to strawman.

>>11724890
>Christianity ripped off the stoics
I didn't realize Plato was a proponent of Stoicism

>>11725224
What if you control your emotions for the sake of assertion instead of submission?

>>11725225
not anon, but strawman is by far the most enjoyable kind of argument. We're all here to have fun

>>11725235
It’s a waste of time imo. Strawmaning should be left for OPs and copy pastas.

>>11725214
>taking control of your instincts and living a rational life?
That's what Diogenes did. There's a reason the Stoics themselves admire him as being almost the perfect man. Have you not read Epictetus?

>>11725233
?

That's the point of stoicism. It's a recognition that the principal difference between adults and children is that adults can self-regulate and control their emotions. This is necessary to gain control over your life.

Literal manchildren are incapable of doing this. This is why they are emotionally incontinent and have no control over their lives.

>>11725228
Have you read the meditations? First few chapters argue for the existence of God. The whole book is proto-christianity

>>11725246
Yeah, that was the point. I was arguing in favour of stoicism, fren...

>>11725260
I think you'll find Plato's writings to be an even better example of proto-Christianity

>>11725260
I think >>11725228 is saying stoicism itself drew inspiration from multiple sources. But what I meant was Christianity's doctrines were an evolution of the practical formulation of the stoic ideas, not anything earlier than that

>>11725270
And my point here >>11725274 is - stoicism preaches for pragmatic ideas - do this, don't do this, do this this way, and Christianity adopted that in its "practical" side. I LITERALLY don't care about the spiritual side.

>>11725262
Stoics saw Cynicism as the shortest way to virtue. Stoicism really was a sort of Cynicism light for the undedicated. Stoicism was literally founded by a guy who didn't have heart enough to be a Cynic so he created a more moderate philosophy.

If you're shitting on Diogenes you're basically shitting on the ultimate Stoic ideal.

Because it's the most popular ethical doctrine for normies and pseuds. It's been aproppriated by the same "self-improvement" crowd that does nofap, cold showers etc.
/lit/ just doesn't like popular things.

>>11725190
>reverse double-contrarians
That's a good one, may I use it in the future?

>>11725294
Oh shit sorry, I misread your original comment. I concede your point

>>11724777
He’s right, you know

>>11725324
umm no

>>11724763
It's a philosophy for prostitutes

>>11725367
explain

I'm not from /lit/ and came here just to check this board, so I can't exactly comment on what /lit/ thinks of it.

I don't see Stoicism as a very popular philosophy. Most people have never read the Discourses or Seneca's writing and have a very poor understanding of the philosophy. That the Nietzsche quote is popular is an evidence of this.
Even online forums tend to be quite weak. They mostly tend to be CBT instead of Stoicism (if you go to reddit's Stoicism community, you will get people asking for advice "on how to get a raise" or on "how to better attract women" and others giving answers that are not different from those of radio talkshows). Some of the famous proponents define virtue as "whatever liberal Americans nowadays consider to be good", so they throw away temperance and adopt some kind of hedonism.

I'm surprised to see some of the answers comparing it to other philosophies that are in the end almost identical to Stoicism. Is there some kind of "my team > your team" thing here?

stoicism is for virgins

>>11724843
You can become a slave to temperance and being aware of what's at your disposal as well.

>>11725456
How?

>>11724777
I think the metaphysics of Stoicism ultimately fails, but there is no denying Nee-cha straight up strawmanned their position

So ive started with the greeks so far and a skill I want to develop is my speech. How would you anons go about it? Im usually incoherent when trying to explain something, dont talk fluently, etc.

>>11724763

Stoicism is fine, but Platonism is like eight times better. Why settle for the lesser philosophy? The later Platonists even adopted Stoic ethics whole-cloth. If it's Stoic ethics you like, Platonism has you covered and comes with a lot more besides.

>>11726863
>Platonism is like eight times better
In what sense?

>>11724777
>To live--is not that just endeavoring to be otherwise than this Nature?
He was completely right. Trips of truth.

>>11725192
>stoica react
They're first mistake

>>11724763
stoicism is a god tier foundation from which to develop your further moral and philosophical views, but it remains rather surface level in its explanations and explorations of the world-nature and the moral laws you should live by.

>>11726865

Philosophers from both schools address many of the same questions, and often in similar ways, but the Platonic answers strike me as superior nearly every time.

To give two examples. Firstly, both groups thought the emotions had to be contended with. The Stoics advocated eradicating the emotions (apatheia) whereas the Platonists advocated moderating the emotions (metropatheia).

Secondly, the Platonists thought that we lived in the best possible world. The Stoics agreed, but went much further and declared that this best possible world was also maximally good.

I think these examples are representative. Time and time again the Platonists and Stoics give similar answers to similar questions, but the Platonists are less radical and give more reasonable answers.

>>11726892

Plutarch understood this. Platonism is the rational middle-ground.

Because to proclaim yourself as an stoic is really easy when you are some high class ancient greek or in analogy to modern times , some spoiled kid living comfortably. This state of apathy, of supposed indifference towards the vicissitudes of life can only be attained in non existance. The act of live implies both longing and suffering. The self proclaimed stoics are just what Nietzsche calls "Last man". Once suffering knocks at your door, you see how delusional is to simply ignore your anguish with some masturbory thought as "nothing matters ". Pic related develops this idea in his short story Ward No. 6

>>11724777
Stoics are FUMING at this

>>11726852
Take a couple public speaking classes at your local community college. Practice makes perfect

>>11726892
Other than Plato (of whom I have read all his works) whom should I read if I want to learn more of Platonism. I have read Meditations and Seneca's letters already as well

>>11726945
The whole point is to prepare for "when suffering knocks at your door" - not get caught with your dick hanging out.

>>11725190
>Wherehaboo

>>11726957

I don't think an introductory history of Platonism from beginning to end exists, but the book Neoplatonism by Pauliina Remes does a good job of surveying the last Platonists of the ancient world. This would be a good start I think. You could then fill in the middle by reading up on the 'Middle-Platonists'.

>dude just don't suffer lmao
Wow, thanks Epictits, didn't think of that one.

>>11727398
It's an ideal you absolute yob. It's not possible to become a stoic sage, but it's possible to aspire to it, and try and get as close as possible.

>>11726892
I frankly think this attempt of creating a school rivalry is dumb. Platonism and Stoicism are pretty much identical in practical terms and some even claimed they were the same philosophy but using different terms.
Trying to denigrate one in favor of the other will do no help to anyone and may even stop people of reading valuable material.

>>11725306

true answer here

>>11725190
>tfw /lit/ is so contrarian that it became the unironic breadpill board

>>11724777
sniffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

i cant laugh at threads here anymore

>>11724836
Fucc that was me a few years ago. I’m gonna call it a good thing that I’m embarrassed about that though.

>>11726277
wage slaving

>>11724763
fac bichas, live well, vidi vici, etc.

>>11731727
sum more for ma players

>>11725214
>rational life

MEIN GOTT!!!!

>>11724780
>>11724768
Hedonism = seeking pleasure and avoiding pain
When will you faggots learn that the logical conclusion of hedonism is suicide? for life always presents us with more suffering than pleasure.
>>11724852
A fundamental axiom of stoicism is belief in god and the providential nature of the cosmos.

>>11726945
Epictetus was a slave.
The last man live revolves around pleasure, the live of a stoic revolves around virtue, everything else but virtue is an indifferent.

Why does /lit/ hate Christianity? I've just delved into it and the only "downside" I see to it is needing to brainwash myself a little bit, but it's for a good cause.

>>11724763

Stoicism has some issues regarding its understanding of broader human psychology, due to how neurological and biological have advanced since its heyday. But some of its foundational precepts (contemplation of transience, concept of striving) are still solid themes for any individual to consider. These are hardly unique to Stoicism and are themes that are shared by many other spiritual/philosophical branches, but the Stoics get right to their heart in possibly the most direct fashion in the Western tradition.

Anyone who is looking for a single codifed spiritual system to be their one guiding light is living the individual equivalent of utopianist social ideologies. You have to find out in collective truth what parts are most relevant to you. And to do that, you need to absorb a variety.