/lit/ - Literature

>>12208080
Dosto does a good job But he's not the only one

>>12208080
What was the guy in your pic using that mallet for? Was his sin whack-a-mole related?

Joyce can too, kinda. He did it in A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.

>>12208092
Joyce wrote from inside the catholic sphere in a portrait but he didn’t actually believe in it at that point in his life. There’s always an ironic distance from faith in Joyce. He’s not comparable to dosto in this regard.

>>12208088
He has a crucifix nail in his other hand. I imagine it's a metaphor.

>>12208106
So he nailed the moles he whacked to his neighbour’s door or what?

>>12208080
>Is Dosto the only one who can describe this?

It's corny enough, so maybe yeah. Also, this theme about redemption via Christ is probably the only subject he deals with.

Winter Light and Andrei Rublev say more about faith than any of Dostoyevky’s work. I think the Russia soul is incongruous with Christianity. The Orthodox Church has always been just another element of their oppression by dictators and they feel that inherently.

>>12208215
>>corny
I'm happy that You never knew True suffering.

>>12208080
Lots of the internal monologues of the Whiskey priest in The Power and the Glory by Graham Green show a similar sort of mindset and troubled relationship with God. If you haven't read Greene yet I would heartily recommend it.

>>12208088
satanic croquet ritual

that sounds like a cool premise for a short story op. a drunk man finds a church and sits on the step crying while thinking about his life. A priest that was inside hears him talking to himself on the other side of the door and joins him to talk.

>>12208255
>'m happy that You never knew True suffering.

Of course I knew. Battled panic attacks and major anxiety for 8 years. When I was at the center of it - when I felt that the sun itself was the dark mouth of a well – I even had tenuous thoughts about suicide. Then I discover Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and slowly forced myself over a period of months to endure enormous discomfort in several situations (hand and forehead throbbing, tachycardia, my intestines like water, a heavy and crushing feeling on the lungs and heart). I had so vast an anger against the panic (my name for it was “the rat”, because it seemed something fat and heavy gnawing my rib-cage) that I was decided to feel hell in my flesh if that meant I would eat that disease away in the end.

And guess what: I cured myself.

As for suffering, my guess is that everyone suffers.

>>12208477
>true suffering
>panic attacks and major anxiety
>hand and forehead throbbing
>tachycardia
>true suffering
holy fucking edge, batman

>>12208477

>>12208088

He was attempting to post some theses.

>>12208477
Yup. Never really suffered. Your brain had to invent problems for you to suffer over Because Nothing bad ever happened to you.
That's so called "anxiety".
Now If You want to really suffer come with me in Africa to do volunteer work next summer that'll fix You right away.

>>12209399
>>12209443

You people would piss yourselves if you had Panic attacks and major anxiety. A lot of people simply don’t recover and end up collapsing in depression and other mental breakdowns.

And what is your true suffering? A bunch of spoiled people from first world countries imagining themselves as some major soul-abysmal sufferer like the priest in Winter Light. Try to look how life for Chinese, Vietnamese and Nicaraguan factory workers is befor you fancy yourselfs as “oh my god the night of the soul sufferers”.

Here, this is you:

>>12208335

>There’s this movement from some 3-4 years since, that somewhat coincide with many 17-18-19-20 year old people starting to browse 4chan. Many of them are all into religiosity and the Bible and so forth because of the new waves of political conservatism that are now the fashion all over the world. They consider themselves – these young men – to be opposes to the status quo, when in fact they are echoing the fashion of the time perfectly. If they were born in the 60s they would all be hippies.

>The other side of the coin are people of around 27-28-29-30 years that have endured a great time of depression, anxiety and a feeling of lack of worth and that have found strength and meaning in – guess what – Jesus. I have seen hundreds of stories like this here on /lit/, all over the place. Again and again and again there’s the same story: “I was feeling lost and sad and lonely and it was then that I found Christ and now I’m feeling much better”.

>In other words: we are dealing with new-fags following the conservative trend and with old-fags hitting the mid-life crisis

>>12209554

Yes, that's treu suffering. But not what the people in this thread were talking about.

Anyway, for such kind of suffering social improvements are far more important than any scrap or religiosity. Like Checkhov said about Tolstoy and his appeals to heal pain via Chistian vows and philosophy:

>Prudence and justice tell me that in electricity and steam there is more love for man than in chastity and abstinence from meat.

>>12209560
wow, so you're the same athiest fag from the other thread. your hubris knows no limit
>no one can ever suffer as much as me! i have it the worst out of everyone!
pathetic

>>12209611
>your hubris knows no limit

This from a guy who thinks he is so important that he will keep existing forever, because there is a divinity that loves him no matter what.

>>12208087
Why didn’t you list others?

>>12208477
fucking hilarious post

>>12209623
dude, you literally think you're speshul for having anxiety. literally every second roastie has anxiety. i had a mental breakdown before and it wasn't that bad and i didn't even go to therapy like a fag, i just let it pass. do all your limbs work? are you mentally retarded? do you need a nurse to wipe your ass for you? no? then stop fucking complaining because there are people who have it way worse than you.

seriously, you are a fucking meme of a person

>>12209647

What do you view as suffering?

>>12209651

My friend, some points:

1-I didn’t had one mental breakdown, I had several over a course of 8 years. Many books cite several cases of suicide triggered by people with agoraphobia and similar diseases. It’s not like one panic attack and then it passes: you can’t digest right, you don’t sleep, you can’t leave the house, your body drowns in cortisol and you have the perpetual feeling that you’re going to throw up and faint (and those are only some of the symptoms).

2-Did I say that was the worse suffering in the world? No. I know very well there are horrendous things happening in the world (and the funny thing is, a lot of you Christ-/pol/-fags think these people deserve their suffering, and applaud figures like Henry Kissinger and things like the military dictatorships seeded by the US all over the Globe).

3-The guy I replied to (“I'm happy that You never knew True suffering.”) was most likely talking about the kind of suffering people call “dark night of the soul”, or crisis of faith, or existential crisis. In many of the Christian-fags in this board say they found Christ during such periods in their life. Now, you can bet your ass this kind of “suffering” is far, far lighter then the ones you quoted, or the lives people led in poor countries.

>>12208088
He crucified someone

>>12208080
>I will not have solace because I don't deserve it.
Self-pity is simply the sin of Pride combined with a dismissal of the beauty God has wrought for you. Repent for this and give yourself to the Lord.

>>12209623
>it's greater hubris to:
>believe we are all worthless sinners, and powerless against sin
>believe we are all subject to an almighty deity
>believe He doesn't need us at all, but lets us live only out of grace
>believe He loves your greatest enemy as much as He does you
>believe humans aren't the sole arbiters of morality, and the peak of all intelligence

>>12209710
>>12209882
based

>>12209498
underrated

>When the holy Abba Anthony lived in the desert he was beset by accidie, and attacked by many sinful thoughts. He said to God, 'Lord, I want to be saved but these thoughts do not leave me alone; what shall I do in my affliction? How can I be saved?' A short while afterwards, when he got up to go out, Anthony saw a man like himself sitting at his work, getting up from his work to pray, then sitting down and plaiting a rope, then getting up again to pray. It was an angel of the Lord sent to correct and reassure him. He heard the angel saying to him, 'Do this and you will be saved.' At these words, Anthony was filled with joy and courage. He did this, and he was saved.

>One day Abba Arsenius consulted an old Egyptian monk about his own thoughts. Someone noticed this and said to him, 'Abba Arsenius, how is it that you with such a good Latin and Greek education, ask this peasant about your thoughts?' He replied, 'I have indeed been taught Latin and Greek, but I do not know even the alphabet of this peasant.'

>Three Fathers used to go and visit blessed Anthony every year and two of them used to discuss their thoughts and the salvation of their souls with him, but the third always remained silent and did not ask him anything. After a long time, Abba Anthony said to him, 'You often come here to see me, but you never ask me anything,' and the other replied, 'It is enough for me to see you, Father.'

>Whenever his thoughts urged him to pass judgement on something which he saw, he would say to himself, 'Agathon, it is not your business to do that.' Thus his spirit was always recollected.

>Abba Ammonas was asked, 'What is the "narrow and hard way?" ' (Matt. 7.14) He replied, 'The "narrow and hard way" is this, to control your thoughts, and to strip yourself of your own will, for the sake of God. This is also the meaning of the sentence, "Lo, we have left everything and followed you." ' (Matt. 19.27)

>>12209710
Based.

>>12209882

You still put value on yourself and your existence. The real deal will be when you don’t put any importance into your existence or in the existence of the human race, recognizing that there might be a God and a first cause but that we are nothing to him, that we are just a small part of the whole, no more important or less important than any other aspect of that whole: like waves on the ocean, that are part of it, but that dissolve without leaving a single trace.

Now that is humility. To don’t expect any love, to don’t expect any higher meaning, to don’t expect any comprehension. To accept that the emptiness that you were before birth is the emptiness you’re going before death, and that what composed your body will be part of other things in the universe.

That would be humility. By now you still put a lot of value on your being. Even to think that God knows you and thinks you are a sinner: it’s too much - you’re saying that the Divinity thinks about you and knows about you.

Try to view yourself as nothing and imagine that even if Divinity exists it is oblivious to your existence.

Can you do that?

>It was said of an old man that for fifty years he had neither eaten bread nor drunk wine readily. He even said, 'I have destroyed fornication, avarice and vain-glory in myself.' Learning that he had said this, Abba Abraham came and said to him, 'Did you really say that?' He answered, 'Yes.' Then Abba Abraham said to him, 'If you were to find a woman lying on your mat when you entered your cell would you think that it is not a woman?' 'No,' he replied, 'But I should struggle against my thoughts so as not to touch her.' Then Abba Abraham said, 'Then you have not destroyed the passion, but it still lives in you although it is controlled. Again, if you are walking along and you see some gold amongst the stones and shells, can your spirit regard them all as of equal value?' 'No,' he replied, 'But I would struggle against my thoughts, so as not to take the gold.' The old man said to him, 'See, avarice still lives in you, though it is controlled.' Abba Abraham continued, 'Suppose you learn that of two brothers one loves you while the other hates you, and speaks evil of you; if they come to see you, will you receive them both with the same love?' 'No,' he replied, 'But I should struggle against my thoughts so as to be as kind towards the one who hates me as towards the one who loves me.' Abba Abraham said to him, 'So then, the passions continue to live; it is simply that they are controlled by the saints.'

>A brother questioned Abba Poemen in this way, 'My thoughts trouble me, making me put my sins aside, and concern myself with my brother's faults.' The old man told him the following story about Abba Dioscorus, 'In his cell he wept over himself, while his disciple was sitting in another cell. When the latter came to see the old man he asked him, "Father, why are you weeping?" "I am weeping over my sins," the old man answered him. Then his disciple said, "You do not have any sins, Father." The old man replied, "Truly, my child, if I were allowed to see my sins, three or four men would not be enough to weep for them."

>One day when he was sitting in front of the church, the brethren were consulting him about their thoughts. One of the old men who saw it became a prey to jealousy and said to him, 'John, your vessel is full of poison.' Abba John said to him, 'That is very true, abba; and you have said that when you only see the outside, but if you were able to see the inside, too, what would you say then?'

>Abba John said, 'I am like a man sitting under a great tree, who sees wild beasts and snakes coming against him in great numbers. When he cannot withstand them any longer, he runs to climb the tree and is saved. It is just the same with me; I sit in my cell and I am aware of evil thoughts coming against me, and when I have no more strength against them, I take refuge in God by prayer and I am saved from the enemy.'

>>12209688
mental breakdowns aren't real

>It was said of Abba Isidore the Priest that one day a brother came to invite him to a meal. But the old man refused to go, saying, 'Adam was deceived by food and had to live outside Paradise.' The brother said to him, 'Are you so afraid to leave your cell?' The other responded, 'My child, I am afraid because the devil, like a roaring lion, seeketh whom he may devour.' (1 Peter 5.8) He often said, When someone gives himself a drink, he will not escape being attacked by thoughts. Lot, indeed, being constrained by his daughters, got drunk with wine, and through the effect of drunkenness, the devil easily brought him to a shameful act of fornication.'

>The old man was asked, 'What should a man do in all the temptations and evil thoughts that come upon him?' The old man said to him, 'He should weep and implore the goodness of God to come to his aid, and he will obtain peace if he prays with discernment. For it is written, "With the Lord on my side I do not fear. What can man do to me?" ' (Ps. 118.6)

>He also said, 'Satan does not know by what passion the soul can be overcome. He sows, but without knowing if he will reap, sometimes thoughts of fornication, sometimes thoughts of slander, and similarly for the other passions. He supplies nourishment to the passion which he sees the soul is slipping towards.'

>Abba Anoub asked Abba Poemen about the impure thoughts which the heart of man brings forth and about vain desires. Abba Poemen said to him, 'Is the axe any use without someone to cut with it? (Is. 10.15) If you do not make use of these thoughts, they will be ineffectual too.'

>Abba Joseph put the same question and Abba Poemen said to him, 'If someone shuts a snake and a scorpion up in a bottle, in time they will be completely destroyed. So it is with evil thoughts: they are suggested by the demons; they disappear through patience.'

>A brother came to see Abba Poemen and said to him, 'Abba, I have many thoughts and they put me in danger.' The old man led him outside and said to him, 'Expand your chest and do not breathe in.' He said, 'I cannot do that.' Then the old man said to him, 'If you cannot do that, no more can you prevent thoughts from arising, but you can resist them.'

>A brother asked Abba Poemen, 'Why should I not be free to do without manifesting my thoughts to the old men?' The old man replied, 'Abba John the Dwarf said, "The enemy rejoices over nothing so much as over those who do not manifest their thoughts."'

>One of the brethren went to see Abba Sisoes on Abba Anthony's mountain. While they were talking, he said to Abba Sisoes, 'Have you already reached Abba Anthony's stature, Father?' The old man said to him, 'If I had one of Abba Anthony's thoughts, I should become all flame; but I do know a man, who with difficulty is able to bear Anthony's thoughts.'

>>12210413

Panic attacks are quite real. They change all the neurochemwstey of the brain in savage ways. If you experience them every day, 6 to 8 times a day, they leavw you a physical and mental wrack.

>>12210430
yeah they're not real though

>>12208477
Please be pasta please be pasta PLEASE be pasta

>>12210432

There’s scientific data and it is considered a medical condition. What you think about it is irrelevant.

>>12208080
Read Pascal

>>12208080
Sounds pretty gay bro. Might wanna get that checked out.

>>12210441

Lol, people calling that pasta but defending Dostoievsky’s charlatanistic “seizures” and “fevers” and “sweats” and “moral crisis” and “religious crisis” and those ridiculous speeches by Alyocha and the conversion of Raskolnikov in the end of C&P.

Go read Tolstoy you faggots.

>>12208477
You're a massive faggot. Some people get their legs blown off, their entire family killed by race mixed amerimutts and then there's anon: """suffering""" because when he goes outside the world isn't a colorful anime lala-land that his favorite chinese cartoons depict it as.

>>12210463
>defending Dostoievsky’s charlatanistic “seizures” and “fevers” and “sweats” and “moral crisis” and “religious crisis” and those ridiculous speeches by Alyocha and the conversion of Raskolnikov in the end of C&P.
no one was doing that itt tho

>>12210364
The orthodox monastics are so based. Fuark.

>>12208088
Who was the guilty? Who brought this upon thee?
Alas, my treason, Jesus, hath undone thee!
'Twas I, Lord Jesus, I it was denied thee;
I crucified thee.

>>12210380
>thinks shit that every high schooler/college student struggles with is profound
Are you 18?

>>12210380
this reads like ernest cline prose