/lit/ - Literature

Lemme pathologize what I don't understand.

just wait till all the tranny millenials turn 40 and get sick of paying for hormones for the rest of their life, fake tits start leaking, and want to have kids, etc.

considering the place you are on you should never have any kids, ever.

Picrel is more tasteful than most modern women btw

>>12410231
What's that Brown University study that showed the correlation between gender dysphoria and having lgbt friends that got pulled for "invalidating trans people"? Look into that and realise you have nothing to fear

>>12410247
What is there to not understand.
>40% of transgender people attempt suicide
>the need to mutilate yourself to fit how you feel inside
>severe depression
These are all symptoms of mental illness, and they are also all symptoms of being transgender.
You are part of the problem, stop allowing these people to destroy their lives.

>>12410231
saged

>>12410259
That only dealt with natal female teenagers though

>>12410259
that was the rapid onset gender dysphoria study

>>12410231
Mosts posts on here that are bait just to have long winded discussions on social issues usually try to pretend to be /lit/ related. I don't give a fuck about your doomed offspring.

>>12410231
Conservative reporting in.

Can someone explain how some of these fuckers want to transition despite not having gender dysphoria? I’ve read that they might just be gay or on the spectrum, but how do they rationalize that reality somehow fucked up and that they’re supposed to be the opposite of what they are?

I think I would be an ok father, but I won't have kids because I'm convinced society is going to spiral into a lawless polluted wasteland within 100 or so years

>>12410276
Where do you find the energy to care?

all i had to do was read the facts of some lawsuit against a gender surgeon in san francisco so know that is something no one should ever do, he punctured her colon so literal shit was seeping out of her fake penis, but the surgeon told her it was just blood (as if that was so much better) so he wouldn't fix it, and then eventually she had to have her fake penis removed, oh god it was awful, this was a perfectly healthy female, now with a fistula, an injury generally only seen in the most violent war torn parts of africa, by choice! sorry this shit is sick, if you wanna be a cross dresser, go for it i don't give a shit what you wear, but getting these horrible genital mutilations is fucking out man

>>12410231
The stylometry of your post is indicative of an extremely low IQ individual.
You have the right view but you're not intelligent enough to warrant further discussion, at least not on /lit/. I'm going to be brutally honest; you shouldn't have children at all. You lack faith in your ability to exert influence over them and their lives, that's the real problem and that's probably the case because you seem very low IQ and regardless feel the need to justify you having children, your post, and your very self in needing to say that you are a liberal. Your post belongs on /pol/ or elsewhere.

>>12410263
Nothing you listed is a necessary attribute of being transgender. The vast majority of trans people don't have surgery, suicide rates are only that high in people who are rejected by family and peers, and most countries don't allow transition until depression is resolved. Are there too many trenders right now? Absolutely. There should be more gatekeeping, that's something the Europeans got right. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that gender dysphoria is caused by partially masculinized body map neuron circuits that it's pointless to argue about it's existence at this point. If you look at the actual guidelines, you will find that they are reasonable and exactly what you would want in such a situation.

>>12410295
>t. assblasted tranny freak
40% ys, my dear xir

>>12410276
Autogynephilia, literal autism, and hugboxing liberals

>>12410296
>suicide rates are only that high in people who are rejected by family and peers
This is a complete fallacy, people on other walks of life who are rejected do not just commit suicide out of the blue. If you are willing to take your own life because people don't "accept" you, then you definitely already had mental problems to begin with.

>>12410301
What part of
>You have the right view but you're not intelligent enough to warrant further discussion,
don't you understand?

Transexuals and sodomites in general are abominations. This should come as no surprise to most people on /lit/. I just don't see the need in discussing it with someone who is obviously in the double digit club. It's a waste of time.

>>12410295

>>12410282
Because like OP I would like to find ways of preventing this from happening to my kids.

>>12410313
>he didnt type fancy enough so I we can't discuss it
I put it into layman terms for you.

>>12410311
You throw the words "mental problems" around like it's a magic spell. You're obviously not qualified to be having this discussion. Can I suggest the /tv/ or /bant/ board for you?

>>12410323
You can't prevent it

>>12410323
Don't have multiple testosterone insensitivity genes. There, it's that simple.

>>12410282
because i care about people and want the best for them turning them into these abominations will not end well

>>12410338
>t. assblasted sodomite

>>12410343
If you care about them, you're not asking the right questions

>>12410231
>Having children

>>12410338
>You're obviously not qualified to be having this discussion
What and you are? Shut the fuck up moron
If someone wants to cut their dick off because they don't think it represents how they feel inside then even a neanderthal could say that that person has a mental illness.

>>12410327
There are many intelligent people who write poorly, yet their posts still show intelligence. OP does not. There are ESLers here that lack command of the English language and still others who use simpler vocabularies that show more smarts than OP.
OP is a brainlet. He has a blasé, ideology and in general is an imbecile. I go to /lit/ because it has a very high proportion of intelligent people. It seems the past two months in particular, have attracted some very dumb people here. I don't want him here. I don't want him on the internet. I don't even want him to vote.

>>12410338
>>12410295

>>12410231
Less than 0.2% of the population is trans. Spend less time on the internet

>>12410277
This and I’m a liberal. If anything a tranny chopping off his dick in a normal sterilized setting won’t do much to society, it’s that the tranny is still a polluting capitalist self centered piece of shit like the vast majority of people alive today.

>>12410365
No shit retard. We’re concerned with the idea that it will get normalized to the point where it will take advantage of fragile or weak-minded people into making stupid decisions.

>>12410356
I have OCD with a focus on being afraid of being trans. I've obsessively studied the issue for much longer than is healthy. You know how autistic kids can name all the different types of different types of dinosaurs and trains? I'm like that except I know a shit ton about trans issues instead

>>12410365
Thats a 0.2 percent chance my kid can become a laughable statistic in the futures history books. Im not taking that chance.

>>12410247
Oh my, you are so much holier than we are!

>>12410295
This.
I left /pol/ because posters became very stupid.
This board is basically /pol/ for smart people. And self-proclaimed liberals like OP are neither smart nor redpilled.

>>12410390
>I left /pol/ because posters became very stupid.
>I am not one of these stupid people, I am above them because I am not on /lit/
>look how smart I am

I was liberal till this happened. Then other liberal shit started to get retarded too. Have fun with your ear mongering boy girls faggot.

I mean I literally daydream about violent acts towards these fucks.

>>12410390
>This board is basically /pol/ for smart people.
You fucking what, cunt?

>>12410359
>I go to /lit/ because it has a very high proportion of intelligent people
this is an embarrassing post

Why the fuck is this on /lit/? Take your basic ass hot takes to any other board filled with midwits

>>12410390
>/pol/ for smart people
>gay sex for straight people

>>12410365
I don’t think this is true anymore. I don’t think you realize how popular it is now. Go to any high school in America and try not to kill yourself in the car once you get back to the parking lot.

>>12410424
Because it the only good place to get book recs, feedback for writing and discuss philosophy. Even if a large portion of the population is mentally deficient (myself included)

>>12410375
>We’re concerned with the idea that it will get normalized to the point where it will take advantage of fragile or weak-minded people into making stupid decisions.

I really hate to break it to you anon, but that has already happened. Not only that, but you already have sick parents attempting to force their children into being transgender so that they get diversity points

>>12410426
I knew literally one tranny in high school
I’ve meet three in my much larger college and one of them is very kind

>mental condition which causes a person to have a need of removing their perfectly functional genitals
I'm not sure how anyone can find this defensible. I don't care about transpeople's ideals and issues because the fact of their willingness to mutilate themselves is a full stop. I don't need to regard them any further, they're sick individuals in desperate need of help, not encouragement.

What the fuck does this have to do with LITERATURE?

The absolute state of this board... threads about TV shows and American politics every fucking day.

I hope Chinese Moot deletes this board along with /pol/. Horrible place, no sense of shame at all.

>>12410323
Colin doesnt look upset about it desu

>>12410447
get used to it kiddo, 4chan is shit and will only get worse

Okay okay.

This is a patrician queer lit recc thread now. Stick it in me.

>>mental condition which causes a person to have a need of removing their perfectly functional genitals
If it was only trans people doing this, I would count it a net positive. However, most genital mutilation done worldwide is done by abrahamics. Focusing on troons is just a Jewish smoke screen. End infant circumcision and then we can start talking

>>12410461
It's not like infants can give consent. It's just a barbaric practice, but it's not a mental disorder. A lot of grown americans are fooled into believing that circumcision has health benefits.

>>12410406
I was liberal until liberalism abandoned science they disagree with and completely discarded the concept of free speech as a human right.

>>12410456
Sure why not, this already has fuck all to do with literature or philosophy

>>12410490
>what is considered real has no impact on literature or philosophy
Are you fucking daft?

>>12410231
i'd first disown my child

>>12410491
Tfw beautiful tranny-love lit is already being developed and will see a Nobel-winning publication within this century but we’ll die thinking it didn’t. Very pix related.

>>12410503
Picrelated

>>12410491
You didn’t start the thread that way, you started it with a blog post. You didn’t ask “Are trans women real women?” You started by bitching about how the trannies are keeping you from having kids and thus already exposed your position. Really no one in this thread is defending transgenderism, not even me. So really this is just a trans hate circle jerk
Also no it doesn’t have to do with literature

>>12410231
>>>/lgbt/

>>12410510
i'm not op, dicknose.

trannies might be the first heralds of the accelerationist meme future
pic related

>>12410518
Well am I wrong still

>>12410518
OP probably jerked off to this thread and fell asleep a while ago.

>>12410438
Yeah catholic priests and Scientologist are really personable too

>>12410510
>you can simply assert that one biological sex is actually another one and nobody is allowed to question it without facing extreme social punishment

Do you have any idea what that means for philosophy?

>>12410368
You're a liberal that hates capitalism?

>>12410510
>trans hate
>if you hate lobotomies, it's just because you hate the mentally ill

Gotcha.

>>12410390
KILL YOURSELF YOU STUPID FUCKS RUINED OUR BOARD

You guys watching the new season of True Detective? I'm a big fan of Mahershala Ali and Stephen Dorff but I'm not very impressed so far

>>12410541
Odd that you don't just go to reddit since this place is ruined. Is there something worse than pol that just happens to be entirely left-leaning?

>>12410380
genuinely cringed.

>>12410526
>>12410534
Again read what I actually said. You are arguing against positions I never stated. Again you assume the conclusion and seem to be outwardly agnry at the no one disagreeing in this thread

>>12410556
I'm not proud of it or anyrhing

>>12410558
You said that this topic has nothing to do with literature. Since we're all misunderstanding you, please explain it. Because as i understand it, the terms "true and false" no longer have any meaning and the philosophical ramifications of that are too many to count.

>>12410555
>Odd that you don't leave your country now that immigrants ruined it

>>12410295
please good sir teach me the finest stylometry, anything i type, anywhere i post people call me out. they read through my lines and find out how much of a coon i really am. nothing wrong with a nigga wanting to pass asam pseud

>>12410569
>it costs thousands of dollars to go to reddit

>>12410231

Laura Quinney: Ok, so it's November 27th, in New Haven. We're at Harold's house, and my name is Laura Quinney. This is an interview with Harold Bloom about his latest book Jesus and Yahweh. Tell me what the epigraph was to have been.

Harold Bloom: Well there was originally a double epigraph. One is still there because it explains the subtitle, The Names Divine, and that is the second of the two quatrains of the concluding "To the Accuser who is the God of this World" of the final version of Blake's little emblem book "For the Sexes: The Gates of Paradise," that is to say:

Though thou art Worshipd by the Names Divine
Of Jesus and Jehovah thou art still
The Son of Morn in weary Nights decline
The lost Travellers Dream under the Hill—

but originally I had wanted to have with it a very great sentence, spoken by an actual governor of Texas back I think in the early 1930s who rejoiced in the name of Ma Ferguson. And when this lady was inaugurated as governor of Texas, she announced that so long as she was governor, no state-supported school, from junior high up through the University of Texas at Austin would be allowed to teach any foreign language whatsoever, and her reason for this she expressed in one very great sentence: "If English was good enough for Jesus then I suppose it should be good enough for us."

LQ: [Laughs.] Thank you. I wanted to ask you in particular about what it means to be a Jewish Gnostic.

HB: Ah.

LQ: In your book, in the opening paragraphs on "The Jewish Sages on God," you write: "The God of the Gnostics is called the Stranger or Alien God, and has exiled himself from our cosmos, perhaps forever. I do not regard Yahweh in that way" [p. 193, Quinney's emphasis]. And yet you describe yourself as a Gnostic.

>>12410276
SAY SHE'S BEAUTIFUL. SAY IT!!!!!!!

>>12410529
Change is slow and using terms that people are familiar and able to grasp is sensible.

>>12410571
>completely missing the point that you're the ruinous immigrant
"This board is basically /pol/ for smart people."

>>12410578

HB: Well, I am partly relying upon my great mentor Gerhard or Gershom Scholem, who in many conversations with me, primarily in Jerusalem, but also in Boston, New York City, and here at this table in New Haven, would frequently say to me that the great disaster of Kabbalah was its Neoplatonic scheme or myth of emanation—the sephirot—and that he greatly preferred what he called the Gnostic kabbalah of the early Merkavah mystics, which he thought had been renewed by Moses Cordovero, who was the teacher of Isaac Luria, and then by Isaac Luria in which Ein Soph, the Kabbalistic name of the infinite one, or Yahweh—whose name you're not supposed to use, but I am now—Ein Soph creates the universe by contracting and withdrawing inside himself, or as I say, going back to the original Hebrew of the Zimzum, which means to sharply draw in or take in your breath—it is that act which at once creates and ruins worlds, according to Cordovero and Luria, and those who came after them. But Gnosticism: Scholem was convinced and Moshe Idel, to whom I am much closer in every way—he is a close personal friend—Moshe Idel on this agrees with Scholem though frequently they don't: Idel says that fundamentally he thinks that what someone like Hans Jonas and other scholars after him have called Gnosticism is actually a kind of parody or echo of a kind of archaic Judaism which we don't have any more, though you can find curious versions of it in the different books of Enoch and other apocryphal literature. Even when I was a little boy, the Talmudic rabbi who fascinated me was the one denounced by all the others in the Pirke Abboth or Sayings of the Fathers, the rabbi Elisha Ben Abuyah, whom the others called Akah, meaning the stranger or the alien, and who is reported to have ascended into heaven in a mystical trance and there beheld not one God but two gods, sitting on thrones facing each other, one being Yahweh, and the other being Metatron, the angel of the divine presence who simply was the transmogrified human being Enoch after he is carried off by Yahweh to the heavens without the necessity of first dying. There are all kinds of complex traditions, some of them going back a long, long way, even though we have no texts of what could be called an original Jewish Gnosis. As I understand Gnosticism,—and it seems to me in this I am highly consonant with my hero Ralph Waldo Emerson, as I am with Valentinus of Alexandria or Basilides of Alexandria, or with Luria or Cordovero, let alone that splendid fellow Nathan of Gaza, who wrote the treatise on the dragons and was the spokesperson or prophet for the false Messiah Sabbatai Zevi,—Gnosticism essentially comes down to a few convictions. One is that the best and oldest part of every one of us, even if we don't have immediate access to it, or easy access to it, is part and parcel of God. (I want a very small sliver, dear.)...

>>12410353
Didn't everyone think this guy was a weird ass fucking mook and he never got any pussy? lol.

>>12410380
faggot.

>>12410586
HB: ...Another is that the creation and the fall are not two separate events, but one and the same event with all of the unfortunate (that's fine dear) the unfortunate pragmatic (thank you dear)—pragmatic consequences of this (mmm . . . it's full of liquor; mmm, it's yummy . . . ).

LQ: [To the tape recorder.] A whisky cake is being consumed.

JB: [Laughs.]

HB: Willie, come and have some whisky cake. A very Yahwistic whisky cake.

Daniel Flesch: Is this yours, Mom?

William Flesch: Shhh . . .

HB: I suppose the remaining basic conviction of Gnosticism is that there is, besides the divinity to which it is so hard to have access, it is very deep in the rock of the self. There is also an exiled component of the true God, who is not Yahweh but presumably the Anthropos, the original man/God of the hermeticists. Except, who knows? Akiba—Akiba who was after all the normative rabbi, the founder of what we call normative Judaism in the second century of the common era, Akiba specifically said that his favorite name for God was ish, which is man. So—in any case I suppose the final tenet of Gnosticism is that there is an exiled component of the Godhead, but it's not in this world, which is governed by the archons and governed by Blake's Nobodaddy as it were, and that far off beyond our solar system, in the cosmological outer spaces there is the—aren't you going to give Willy some of that?

WF: I had some.

HB: Well put it back in there: you don't want it to go to waste.

WF: But I might want more.

JB: Stop talking in the microphone.

HB: Pussycat? Oh, I'm sorry.

LQ: It's ok, it's ok. It can be edited. Or not.

HB: It doesn't matter.

LQ: But your Yahweh is not Blake's Nobodaddy.

>>12410566
Postmodernism won, not everywhere, I'm sorry anon, we will continue the struggle.

>>12410597
...
HB: No. No no no no no. He is—he was for me the surprise of my book. As I say at one point he usurped this book. Indeed he wasn't supposed to be there at all in the first place. Originally the title of the book was Jesus and Christ, since I regard the two of them as totally separate figures, but I found that as I got into it, it didn't make any sense to me unless I really talked about Yahweh, and I think the really original part of the book is the second half, on Yahweh, which actually goes so far as to apply Lurianic Kabbalah to the whole question of the origin of Yahweh. You will remember that in Kierkegaard Nebuchadnezzar, after he had been changed back from a beast in the field to a man, says of Yahweh, "Nobody knows who his father was, or who taught him the secret of his strength" [quoted from Quidam in Stages on Life's Way] and I speculate in a perfectly Kabbalistic way, I say—I speculate that a perfectly—aren't you going to eat it—?

LQ: Yes I'm going to try it.

HB: In a perfectly, I think, Kabbalistic way that Yahweh may have come into existence by this act of Zimzum, this act of contraction or withdrawal, which means that he diminished himself in order to get started. Which I find fascinatingly parallel to Walt Whitman, in which I again follow Scholem: who used to say in conversations with me, that in a secular world somehow Whitman by some miracle without knowing anything about Kabbalah had in effect reinvented his own Kabbalah, and I think that is true. Whitman throughout Song of Myself and elsewhere is always saying that he is expanding, that he is getting to contain more and more multitudes, that his sense of self is steadily increasing. But in fact he too is always contracting and withdrawing. He is endlessly elusive and evasive, and the worlds that he creates and ruins also seem to come from some process of self-withdrawal.

LQ: This may lead to my next question, which is something that puzzles me about the book. And that is that in some sense I was not sure why you think of the Yahweh of the Hebrew Bible as a true description of a Deity, rather than as a . . . ?

>>12410477
I'm circumcised and I like it.

>>12410581
At least we're talking about books again.

>>12410603
HB: Well, there are Yahwehs—just as I say there are seven versions at least of Jesus or Jesus Christ, or Jesus and Jesus Christ, in the Greek New Testament, there are innumerable versions of God in Tanakh, the Hebrew Bible, but the one who interests me and always has and always will, is the original one, the first Straha, traditionally called J or the Yahwist, probably written as early as the reign of Solomon, 3,000 years ago, in which most certainly he is as I say a stern imp, up to a lot of mischief, something of a trickster God—human all too human: he's always walking around on the ground; he isn't flying up in the air—he's walking around on the ground in order to make personal, you know, sort of on the job inspections of how things are going. He closes the door of the ark—of Noah's ark with his own hands; he even more memorably buries Moses in an unmarked grave, with his own hands; he is very fond of picnics; thus at Mamre he sits beneath the terapim trees because he always likes to be in the shade rather than the sun, thus he walks we are told in Eden in the cool of the day, at Mamre, with two of the Elohim who are his angels he sits beneath the terapim trees, and he has a sumptuous rather full-scale luncheon prepared by Sarah—roast veal and whey and freshly baked sort-of cakes. And how is one to put it—he on Sinai, on the side of Sinai, he sits there and shares a meal with 73 elders of Israel. They stare at him and he stares at them and that's it. He doesn't say a word and they don't say a word, but there he is. And according to Kabbalistic tradition, from the Merkavah thing on, he's enormous, he is I say the King Kong of deities, he is of enormous size.

LQ: What leads you to think of this God as more than an exceptional fiction?

HB: Well, his metaphysical density, his ferocious and vivid personality, his intensely human traits—I gather you're not going to eat that so I'm going to put it back in there—

LQ: One more bite.

HB: Go ahead, go ahead. He is . . . he is a . . . the reason why I keep invoking Shakespearean characters like King Lear, who is I think Shakespeare's version of Yahweh, or Hamlet, who has a very complex relation I think to Mark's Jesus, is that Yahweh, Mark's Jesus, Hamlet, King Lear, Falstaff, Cleopatra, Iago—they are all more real than you are, whoever you are, and yes, they are fictions, but if they're fictions, what are we? Since they are livelier than we are, exceed us in energy and in dynamism, as Yahweh does also. It seems to me that—I mean he may just be not at all an attractive version of what Mr. Stevens wanted to call the supreme fiction, but he is . . . he's quite a fiction, he's very persuasive and as I keep saying in the book I wish he would go away. I don't like him. I don't feel anybody can like him....

>>12410609
You like having a dried up mushroom cock?

How to Unleash $45 Billion for Charity
By
Abby Schultz
Dec. 20, 2018 11:07 a.m. ET

Stanley and Fiona Druckenmiller, along with the Edna McConnell Clark Foundation, support the Harlem Children's Zone, a nonprofit for poverty-stricken children and families living in Harlem,
Stanley and Fiona Druckenmiller, along with the Edna McConnell Clark Foundation, support the Harlem Children's Zone, a nonprofit for poverty-stricken children and families living in Harlem, Harlem Children's Zone

Hundreds of billionaire philanthropists who have signed the Giving Pledge—following in the footsteps of Bill and Melinda Gates and Warren Buffett by pledging to give away more than half their wealth—have gone far in supporting worthy organizations and raising the profile of important philanthropic causes.

Yet a report from The Bridgespan Group, a U.S. research and advisory firm for nonprofits and donors, finds the generosity of ultra-wealthy individuals and families falls short of what they could be giving. The philanthropies hurt most by this shortfall are on-the-ground “social change” nonprofits working to improve society, health care, and the environment.

In doing the research, “what was staggering was, first, to understand that people do in many instances want to put more money to work, and second, to appreciate that it’s in fact hard to do really well,” says Tom Tierney, Bridgespan’s co-founder and the former chief executive of Bain & Company, the private equity firm.

Third, Tierney adds, “is the consequence of it being hard is that they actually aren't putting money to work.”

The ultra-wealthy in the U.S., those with at least $500 million in assets, donated only 1.2% of their assets to charity last year, a fraction of the 9% average annual return investors would have received by investing in S&P 500 stocks, Bridgespan said in its recent report, titled Four Pathways to Greater Giving: What will it take to unlock dramatically more philanthropy from America’s wealthiest families.

If an ultra-rich family wanted to spend down half its wealth over 20 years, that would mean boosting donations to 11% of assets a year, 10 times more than today, the group said.

In the report, which received funding from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, Bridgespan outlines how giving by the U.S.’s wealthiest could double to $90 billion a year, unleashing another $45 billion to attack the country’s gravest social and environmental issues.

“We think there's a historic impact opportunity here,” Tierney says.

>>12410612
HB: ...His famous definition when Moses asks him his name—his famous self-definition is ehyeh asher ehyeh, translated by William Tyndale as "I am that I am" and that's kept in the Authorized Version of the English Bible. The Hebrew "ehyeh asher ehyeh" actually means "I will be, I will be;" "I will be that I will be," or to make it into better English "I will be present wherever and whenever I choose to be present," but I say throughout the book that also means "And I will be absent wherever and whenever I choose to be absent." And he is very distinguished by his absences, it seems to me. But if he is just a literary character—well first of all I don't recognize any distinction between literary and human characters; I mean I'm notorious for that, and why not be notorious for that—it seems to me that the sacred Bloomstaff, as I call him, is at least as real as old Bloom—Sir John Falstaff, of course. But not even kidding, I mean what can you say about the Yahweh of the J writer? He is endlessly memorable, he is endlessly unreliable. [Pause.] But he gets inside you. I repeat I would like him to go away, but he doesn't seem to go away.

LQ: Why doesn't he go away?

HB: Well, because I'm pretty sure he is our equivalent—I mean, our equivalent for him now is what our Uncle Siggy Freud called "reality testing" and the Reality Principle. Freud says that reality testing means that you have to "make friends with the necessity of dying."

LQ: So he's the name of everything that opposes our will.

HB: Yeah, he is . . . [Pause.] I think I remark somewhere in the book, with a certain amiable—I wouldn't say irony, but a kind of zest, that God had breathing trouble and this trouble created the world. And I think I remark something like, "Try to hold in your breath for as long as possible, and then just before you can't stand it any more, try to think something into creation, try to will or think something, and see what happens." Which always makes me think of Kafka's very grand remark to Max Brod, where he says, "We are one of God's thoughts when he was having a bad day." ...

Not everyone is left behind. Large nonprofit organizations, such as medical centers, major arts organizations, and universities, already get plenty of funding, often from the country’s wealthiest individuals. Most of these organizations have endowments, wealthy beneficiaries, and well-staffed development teams expert in seeking out funding.

Tierney and Bridgespan don’t have an issue with these successful organizations. It’s just that they’ve observed a “market breakdown” when it comes to the ability of social service organizations—those helping low-income families or the elderly, for example—to attract the same level of philanthropic capital.

There are several reasons for the shortfall, including the fact that small, thinly staffed organizations aren’t equipped to effectively absorb a lot of money at once, and that many wealthy individuals don’t want to risk funding efforts that may be innovative, yet unproven.

Another issue is the “market” for matching donors with opportunities is broken, particularly as fewer wealthy individuals and families are inclined to set up large, well-staffed foundations, like another Gates or Ford or Rockefeller Foundation.

“Nobody wants to waste their money, and this is why historically, [wealthy individuals and families] endowed foundations and hired a bunch of people to help them give their money away, because it takes resources to do it intelligently and effectively,” Tierney says. “And yet today, many people are not staffing large foundations.’

>>12410461
>End infant circumcision and then we can start talking
dumbest post itt, congratulations anon

>>12410622
The goal of the research, which included interviews with more than 60 ultra-wealthy families, was to find out what mechanisms, instead, might exist today, or should be created, to scale these barriers, and facilitate the movement of capital to effective organizations on the front lines of making positive societal change.

They came up with four “pathways” to get money to organizations that need it most: the use of “aggregated funds,” created from large donations from individuals and families; development of a national “community foundation” aimed at boosting economic mobility; expanding the size and scope of strategic philanthropy services; and building the capacity of social-change nonprofits to plan for and deploy large gifts.

“The report doesn’t claim to have the only ideas, it’s more an observation about what seems to already be working, but maybe working at a scale that is tiny relative to the potential,” Tierney says.

Establishing Aggregated Funds as a “Common Asset Class”

Consider aggregated funds. Sometimes known as donor collaboratives, these platforms pool capital from several large individual donors or foundations and typically channel it to specific social service causes, from poverty, to health care, to education, and the environment.

Bridgespan looked at about 40 of these funds and found that just eight give away $50 million or more a year. The group believes that at least $5 billion a year could be deployed to social service agencies through these funds if they could scale their efforts, or if wealthy philanthropists boosted their levels of giving.

>>12410616
If you want to see it just ask bro, it's a handsome one

>>12410619
HB: ... It seems to me he has mostly bad days. But since I don't think there's any distinction whatsoever between sacred and secular texts, there's only great writing and bad writing (or good writing in between I suppose or fair writing) then it's natural to speak of—in fact, remember what Blake says; he says religion is just choosing forms of worship from poetic tales, and then he adds—this is The Marriage of Heaven and Hell — "Thus men forgot that all Deities reside in the human breast." But that doesn't mean that they don't reside there. And of course, this is now a very tricky business, because I'm not sure anybody—you're not supposed to believe in Yahweh anyway if you are a normative Jew, you're supposed to have Emunah, you are supposed to trust in the covenant with him, but he's never kept the Covenant himself, and I get awfully weary of the Hebrew prophets who are always denouncing the people of Israel for violating their covenant with Yahweh when Yahweh hadn't kept his for a moment, and always seems to be hard at work destroying his chosen people. He seems to resent sometimes, precisely because he had such trouble bringing them into existence I suppose and they are after all according to that story the original people that he brought into existence—

LQ: The title of Frank Kermode's review is "Angry at God." Do you think anger is the correct word?

HB: "Angry at God" is not what Sir Frank says. That's on the front cover of The New York Review of Books. If you look inside, Sir Frank's review is "Arguing with God," and I think that's what this book is, and an old Jewish tradition is an argument with God.

LQ: What adjective would you use to describe your feelings about . . .

HB: Yahweh?

LQ: . . . God?

HB: I don't like him. I repeat I wish he would go away. But somehow he doesn't. I don't think I have any nostalgia for him. I wouldn't dream of praying to him, but then I'm an Emersonian, and Emerson in "Self-Reliance" says quite wonderfully, "As men's prayers are a disease of the will, so are their creeds a disease of the intellect."...

>>12410625
One effective aggregator is Blue Meridian Partners. The platform is structured as a private equity fund, with eight general partners who commit to donate $50 million over five years, and several limited partners, who commit to giving $15 million.

Stan Druckenmiller, former hedge fund manager and founder of Duquesne Capital, is chairman of the fund and a general partner alongside Alphabet President Sergey Brin, former Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer, and hedge fund manager David Tepper.

Druckenmiller came to Blue Meridian because of Nancy Roob, the CEO, whom he met through her work with the Edna McConnell Clark Foundation, or EMCF, supporting the Harlem Children’s Zone, an organization he and his wife, Fiona, have long supported.

Roob, and EMCF, had an approach to philanthropic investing similar to how Druckenmiller approached investing. That is, they took big bets on organizations they believed in and stuck with them, helping them get over hurdles and grow.

Blue Meridian has invested in about eight organizations so far; those that overcome hurdles that show they can scale their efforts may get as much as $200 million in capital over time.

>>12410629
“I'm hopeful the efficacy of a concentrated approach where you're involved with institutions and you're helping guide them and you’re going along is more effective,” Druckenmiller says. “Obviously I think it is or I wouldn't be involved with it.”

Because of the need to draw out more aggregated capital to attack society’s needs, Druckenmiller says Blue Meridian—which has grown to $1.8 billion since 2016, with annual funding of $150 million—needs to succeed. “There's nothing that creates imitation like success,” he says.

One benefit of Bridgespan’s research is it reveals the low amount of giving among the nation’s wealthiest, creating a sense of urgency in an area that’s often missing when it comes to philanthropy.

It’s easy to put off giving for another day, another year, because there’s no cost to waiting, unlike with investing, says Rob Rosen, director of the Gates Foundation’s global relationships with philanthropists and charitable organizations.

But the action plan the research offers is particularly useful, and Gates is sharing it among its Giving Pledge community and others.

“Even when you've got that sense of commitment, and the feeling of urgency to take action, going about it can be difficult and that's where things like Blue Meridian, and other mechanisms that are really starting to build some momentum, are part of the solution to that challenge,” Rosen says.

>>12410619
HB: ...Now Christianity has creeds; Judaism doesn't. Islam has creeds; Judaism doesn't. There are now one and a half billion so-called Christians in the world and one and a half billion so-called Moslems in the world—those who have submitted: which is what it means, Islam means "submission." There are perhaps fourteen million Jews still left, so obviously it's a thousand to one. The fight got settled a long time ago, but on the other hand there are even more Hindus. Nobody knows how many people there are in India—they don't practice birth control there, unlike the Chinese who so rigorously try to keep their population from getting completely out of hand; there may well be more Indians now than there are Chinese—in any case, if you add up all the Indians, excluding the Pakistanis or the Moslem Kashmiris, if you add up all the Hindus and other modes of religion in India which are not Moslem or Christian, and you add in all the Taoists, Buddhists, and Confuciusts, not only of China but of the rest of Asia, and the Buddhists and Shintoists of Japan, there are more non . . . what are we to call them? Ultimately at the moment it seems to me that with great crusader Bush leading us there is a kind of religious war being fought between the Moslem world and the Christian world, just as there is obviously a religious war being fought between the state of Israel and the Moslem world, which is why Israel is sitting on top of that vast mound of atomic and hydrogen bombs in Dimona, but in the long run I suppose the religious future may well lie with the East.

LQ: Um hm. Would you think the word "disappointed" would be a fair characterization? Would you say that you are disappointed . . .

HB: . . .with Yahweh?

LQ: Yes.

HB: No. I wouldn't have dreamed of trusting him in the first place. So what is there to be disappointed with? He is, he's bad news, he has always been bad news. No, I'm not disappointed; I find him very fascinating, very interesting. As I say, he's even more interesting than King Lear, and to some extent at least—well, Mark's Jesus and Hamlet run almost neck and neck in interest. Each of them has incredible mood swings, as Sir Frank points out, following me in that part of his review. No I'm... [Pause.] Look, I've been teaching how to read for 51 years now. I've been writing and publishing criticism for 51 years. It seems to me that what I've written in this book is really just an extension of the book The Anxiety of Influence, which in its first form was written back in the summer of 1967 when I was 37, and actually contained a rather savage chapter on the Gospel of John, which I detached and later published separately, and now in revised form have put it into this book, so it's a pretty direct line from one to the other...

Sotheby’s Masters Sale to Feature the Dutch Golden Age
By
Abby Schultz
Dec. 21, 2018 5:07 p.m. ET

"A Banquet of the Gods," by Joachim Anthonisz. Wtewael, is estimated between US$5 million to US$7 million.
"A Banquet of the Gods," by Joachim Anthonisz. Wtewael, is estimated between US$5 million to US$7 million. Courtesy of Sotheby's

At the heart of Sotheby’s January sale of master paintings will be a group of works from Dutch Golden Age masters that were bought by a private American collector during the 1980s and 1990s.

Leading the selection of seven paintings to be sold at Sotheby’s evening sale of master paintings on Jan. 30 in New York is A Banquet of the Gods, a gorgeously detailed painting by Joachim Anthonisz Wtewael, of nearly “50 elegantly posed figures,” in a work that’s only 6 ⅛ inches by 8 ⅛ inches, according to Sotheby’s. The “cabinet size” painting—intended to be hung in a home, not a church—is estimated to sell for between US$5 million and US$7 million.

The Dutch Golden Age spanned much of the 17th century. Wtewael was a leading figure in what was known as the Dutch mannerist movement of that period, a style, evocative of Italian mannerist painting, that harkens back to classical antiquity and Greek sculpture, says David Pollack, a specialist in Sotheby’s master paintings department.

Wtewael “shows his unbelievable dexterity in painting on a small scale” in A Banquet of the Gods, Pollack says, illustrating “all these intertwined, identifiable bodies having a fabulous time, and he does it on a tiny miniscule scale on this beautiful piece of copper.” He describes it as a “tour de force, unlike anything else.”

>>12410611

>>12410641
Master works of this quality, which are basically new to the market since they’ve been in private hands so long, are highly desired by collectors. The ability to get these paintings has led to an uptick in prices in the sector recently, Pollack says.

“We’re a market that is hungry for top-end works,” he says. “When pictures like the ones I mention that are privately owned, fresh to the market, in great condition, by important names, come onto market, we see really strong prices.”

Sotheby’s series of Old Masters sales that took place in December in London totaled US$58.1 million, with US$38.5 million realized in a Dec. 5 evening sale. Of all the works on the block that evening, nearly 86% sold, which is a record sell-through rate for London; 45% sold above their top estimates, including what Sotheby’s described as a rare oil sketch by Rembrandt van Rijn that had recently hung in the Rembrandt’s Amsterdam home and sold above its £6 million high estimate for £9.5 million (US$12.1 million), with fees.

>>12410647
Did you just pull the "i know you are but what am i" card unironically?

>>12410611
>admits openly to being a /pol/ immigrant
>ACKSHYULY you're just saying le pol boogeyman!
If you have to have that image saved you should reconsider your posting career

>>12410651
“There is a general sentiment that there’s a great value proposition in Old Masters,” Pollack says. “For the same amount of money as a lower-end evening sale picture in contemporary sales, you can buy a museum quality painting in Old Masters.”

The grouping of Dutch masters also includes Jan van de Cappelle’s A shipping scene on a calm sea, with a number of vessels and figures, and a jetty on the left, a larger work at 24½ inches by 32¾ inches, that is estimated to sell for between US$5 million and US$7 million.

Van de Cappelle built his reputation as a seascape painter, but his artistry, at manipulating light and surface, is a “lost art today,” Pollack says.

For example, there’s “this incredible shaft of sunlight that beams down in the center of the composition,” he says. “Off of that main shaft of light, you get these ancillary beams of light that are so subtle. The way that they hit the water and affect the tiny waves—it's so unbelievably sophisticated.”

>>12410655
What is a pol immigrant? People only have one interest and they can only ever go to one board?

>>12410663
Also in the sale are two works by Jacobus Vrel, a painter whose works are instantly recognizable to those familiar with Dutch masters, but of whom little is known. An upcoming retrospective, which will include the two paintings Sotheby’s is selling, could reveal more about the artist and his influences, Pollack says.

The works on offer are Street Scene with Two Figures Walking Away, estimated to sell for between US$1.5 million and US$2 million, and Street Scene with Figures in Conversation, estimated between US$1 million and US$1.5 million.

The first painting, for instance, “is a pretty simple scene of small buildings with just two people meandering in the street, but the beauty of that picture is the ability to control light, to show each brick in the building,” he says. “It’s not dissimilar to the way [Johannes] Vermeer painted his famous, The Little Street.”

>>12410664
People have home boards. Mine is /sp/

>>12410637
HB: .... I was rather amused, though, to see my old student Jonathan Rosen, in the review that appeared in today's Sunday Times Book Review, saying that: Well after all what difference does it make that Wallace Stevens strongly misread Shelley in order to produce characteristic Stevens, what matters is religious truth, and, you know, it is the truth or falsehood in regard to one another of, say, Christianity and Judaism or of Islam that matters. That may be Jonathan Rosen, but that isn't me, and that isn't in the book that he's reviewing. Not that I'm ungrateful for his review, which you know certainly shows a warm heart, and reminds me of a wonderful pun I once—quoting from the Hebrew—of an almost Lewis Carrollian or Joyceyan dimension, that I threw into an outrageous public lecture here on the relation between the so-called two covenants or two testaments. I also liked the joke, which I'd seen before but hadn't seen for a long time. It's an old Yiddish remark, that the Christians stole our watch 2,000 years ago, and are still telling us what time it is. I like that. It's almost as good as my favorite Yiddish proverb, as I translate it: "Sleep faster, we need the pillows."

LQ: [Laughs.] I'm still fascinated by the question of your relation to Yahweh, as you can see.

HB: Well, it seems to me no more or no less vital or of concern to you as my close friend or to me, as my relation to King Lear. I would have great difficulty in saying what my relation to King Lear is. I agree with Charles Lamb: you shouldn't even go and see somebody try and act the part, because it's unactable. What can you do with a figure who actually stares up at the sky and cries out, "You heavens, you should take my side because you too are old." That's so marvelous and I can't imagine an actor enunciate it. And I've never seen a Lear that worked. I think that trying to play Lear would be rather like having a drama in which somebody played Yahweh. Inconceivable.

LQ: You do use one phrase here which struck me very much. I was fascinated by it. I'm not sure I can imagine you using it about Lear. You speak of your "waning skepticism" about Yahweh.

HB: Well, I have waning skepticism about Lear also. I mean the difference is that I get fonder and fonder of Lear, irascible old creature as he is. Waning skepticism.

LQ: Yes, that's interesting. It's a good surprising phrase. You expect the reverse.

>>12410296
>Openly posting as a trans apologetic on this board

The absolute state, lads.

>>12410664
Someone who takes thinks every board is /pol/ for specific interests. Like someone who would think /lit/ is /pol/ for smart people, and not a literature board

>>12410671
HB: I drag it in at the end of the book because I got very bored by Sam Harris. You know pragmatically there's no difference between Sam Harris urging an end to faith; I would say fine, Judaism isn't faith anyway. That's Pauline Pistis, the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. No, the only question is whether you trust Yahweh or you don't, and obviously you shouldn't and can't and couldn't and won't, because he's bad news, as I keep saying. He's as good an explanation for why everything goes wrong all the time as we could want. And he's had a terrible effect upon the world. Because in a somewhat altered and perhaps even more aggressive form, he is the Allah, which is a variant in Arabic on Elohim, of the Koran, of the Recitation, and he utterly disappears in Christianity, where God the father is just kind of an unfortunate, weak imitation of Yahweh. [Pause.] Surely it comes back to Leibniz, doesn't it? Which is then picked up by the horrible Heidegger. Why should anything be, anyway, rather than not be? Since Yahweh puns on ehyeh, which is the ancient Hebrew verb for being. I don't know. In the end I suppose if I have to vote and go with any one, I go with Hamlet, who is a nihilist as I read him. I think Shakespeare's ultimately is nihilistic, not Christian, not even Hermetist, just nihilistic, but I don't know that pragmatically there's any difference between Yahwism and nihilism. You know: is this a difference that makes a difference? to invoke William James's, you know, quite Emersonian definition of American pragmatism. It doesn't seem to me that it is a difference that makes a difference.

LQ: I see. So the phrase "waning skepticism" doesn't mean "increasing faith"?

HB: No, there's no faith to be had anyway. Certainly, the only issue is whether or not you trust him. I don't trust him. He's not worthy of trust. He is very bad . He is . . . .

LQ: You speak often of the Holocaust as—I take it that that for you is emblematic.

>>12410678
>Someone who thinks every board is /pol/ for specific interests.
The fuck does that mean?

>Like someone who would think /lit/ is /pol/ for smart people, and not a literature board
I didn't say that.

>>12410683
HB: Oh sure. Oh sure, I mean Yeshua, if he was crucified, was one of hundreds of thousands of Jews who were being crucified by the Romans in those days. And the biggest single holocaust of Jews took place after Rabbi Akiba proclaimed Simon bar Kosba, Simon bar Kochba or son of the star and said he was the Messiah, ben Joseph, that is to say, not the Messiah ben David but the Messiah ben Joseph, the warrior who comes first. And that led all of the Jews in the world into a terrific rebellion against Hadrian, and millions of Jews were eventually slaughtered and Akiba tortured to death at the age of 95; Bar Kochba went down heroically, taking legions of Romans with him. At one point in the book I have a sentence that Jeanne, my wife, reading it, said "Harold, it shouldn't be there; it will get you into trouble." But I'm glad it's there, because you know the great phrase about Yahweh in the Psalms and elsewhere is that Yahweh is a man of war, and I think his most memorable single appearance, and I talk about it, in the Bible, in Tanakh, is in the Book of Joshua, where at one point Joshua—you know it is after the death of Moses and Joshua is in command of the Israelites and they conquered Canaan, and before a crucial battle near Jericho he notices an armed warrior. He doesn't recognize him, and he boldly goes up to him, and he says, "Are you one of us or one of them." And the fellow replies, "The ground upon which you stand is holy. Take off your sandals." At which Joshua takes off his sandals and abases himself because he recognizes that it is Yahweh a man of war come to fight in the battle of Jericho, which he does, as he also fights, you know, with the tribes that came to the battle in the first Hebrew poem that we have, the song of Deborah and Barak in Judges 5. So I have this sentence in the book: "If Yahweh is a man of war, then Allah is a suicide bomber." I think they are all bad news, Judaism and Christianity and Islam. But I wanted to make clear in the book that there is no such thing as a Judeo-Christian tradition. That is absolutely ridiculous. And fascinatingly enough there are two things that I've said throughout my life when I've addressed Jewish audiences, say at the Jewish Theological Seminary or such places, and they always get furious at me. But they're both true. One is that nowhere in the whole of the Tanakh does it say that a whole people can make themselves holy through study of texts. That's a purely Platonic idea, and comes out of Plato's Laws. That simply shows how thoroughly Platonized the rabbis of the second century were. The other one, which I say in this book and it has already given some offense, is that in fact not only is Judaism, which is a product of the second century of the common era—and it's worked out by people like you know Akiba and his friends and opponents like Ishmael and Tarphon and the others, is a younger religion than Christianity is....

>>12410697
see
>>12410390

>>12410698
HB: ...Christianity in some form exists in the first century of the common era. What we now call Judaism comes along in the second century of the common era. Christianity is actually the older religion, though it infuriates Jews when you say that to them.

LQ: I wanted to go back to your comment . . .

HB: I think my book is good clean fun.

LQ: Well I thoroughly enjoyed it. I wanted to go back to your comment. . .

HB: But I don't think it's irreverent.

LQ: No.

HB: Because I think the category—you know any time you want to say that some text is more sacred than another then you've made a political statement, and I don't like political statements. It is utterly insane that by vote of the United States Congress, the Church of Scientology has a tax exempt status. That means that Dianetics, by L. Ron Hubbard, which I challenge anybody to try to read, is a sacred text, by vote of Congress. And of course what it is is very ninth rate science fiction. Though it now has distinguished believers like, I believe, Tom Cruise and—isn't John Travolta also a Scientologist?

LQ: To go back to your comment about Yahwism and nihilism: What is—I don't know how to put this question exactly—but what is—why do you describe yourself as a Gnostic rather than an atheist or an agnostic?

HB: Ah, that's what my wife always wants to know. She regards herself as an atheist. [Pause.] I don't think I am.

JB: [Whispers.]

HB: Bad wife.

LQ: Sorry, what did you say, Jeanne?

JB: I regard him as an atheist.

LQ: I see. That was "I regard him as an atheist."

HB: No, no I'm not an atheist. It's no fun being an atheist.

JB: True! But what alternative is there?

>>12410703
So you only hate that one guy because he said something you thought was dumb? You don't have anything against other people who have visited or regularly visit other boards including /pol/?

>>12410708
HB: Well, the alternative is to entertain all of these fictions. Remembering what Uncle Wallace taught us, which is that the final belief he says is to believe in a fiction, with the nicer aspects of belief, that knowing that what you believe in is not true. It's just imaginatively much more interesting to be a Gnostic rather than an agnostic, to be fascinated by Yahweh rather than indifferent to him. Walt Whitman liked to say that the United States are in themselves the greatest poem. Alas they're not, but it's a nice idea. Yahweh is a great poem. [Pause.] I don't think Jesus Christ is a great poem. [Pause.] I never quite make up my mind about Allah, though I'm fascinated by the fact that the Koran is the only book I've ever read in which every single phrase is spoken by God himself. It is the voice of Allah that you hear from the beginning to the end, supposedly by mediation of the angel Gabriel, being dictated to Mohammed, who however doesn't write it down because supposedly he's an illiterate, which baffles me, because he's a successful merchant, and how could you have been a successful merchant if you were illiterate, and couldn't read or write? But supposedly he memorizes it and then he dictates it—a very suspicious process of course, but then no more suspicious than the formation of Tanakh or the Greek New Testament. I don't say it in this book, because I had said it in the book just before, called Where Shall Wisdom be Found, in the chapter there that reprints with a few modifications a commentary that I'd written on the Gnostic or quasi-Gnostic Gospel of Thomas,—I ask every New Testament theologian I've known in this life the same question; I've asked the great Pelikan this question, at which he had just shrugged his shoulders and walked off smiling amiably: How is it that we don't have an Aramaic Gospel? Why is there no Nazarene Gospel? Even though we know that no one who wrote anything that is now in the New Testament had ever seen the historical Jesus, had ever heard him say a word, nevertheless, for any of this to make even an iota of sense, that person did not go around speaking Koiné, speaking demotic Greek. He went around speaking Aramaic. Aramaic and demotic Greek are totally different languages. The nuances of thought, expression and spirituality of one are not readily translatable into the other. How could you believe that you were hearing the ipsa verba, the actual words of the incarnate God, and not write them down and preserve them? And what makes me even more suspicious is, you will notice, as though they throw it in to show the authenticity of this inauthentic schmaltz, all through the Gospels suddenly you're thrown a phrase or two in Aramaic, including, you know, the last words spoken from the Cross. Why? And where's the rest of it?

>>12410710
LQ: You say in the book when you come to the question of why Christianity has been appealing, I believe you say, it's the promise of the resurrection.

HB: Well, even more simply now though: I was on Charlie Rose some weeks ago, and Charlie, I suppose playing straight man—a hard role for Charlie to play—said: To what do you attribute the fact that you've just spoken of, Harold, that there are a billion and a half Moslems in the world and a billion and a half Christians and only fourteen million Jews, how do you explain the enormous appeal of these religions? I said: Well on the one hand, in both Islam and Christianity, you're getting a great deal in exchange for very little. All you have to do in Christianity is say, "I accept that Jesus of Nazareth was also Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the anointed one or Messiah," and as a result you have life eternal. And all you have to do in Islam, as they say, which is what it means, is submit just to the statement that Mohammed, who is certainly not divine and doesn't pretend to be divine is nevertheless the seal of the prophets, the final kind of a prophet and all you have to do is submit to the will of Allah, and in return you get Paradise. And of course there's also the fact, as I said on Charlie Rose, that Christianity triumphed not just because of that but because Constantine the Great looked over what was available to him, including Mithraism and so on, and said, "The right way to hold the Empire together, the right state religion is Christianity." So he swung the sword of Constantine, and out went all the heretical versions of Christianity also, including the Gnostics and we got the Church, the Roman Catholic Church indeed. And then Mohammed, as the Koran makes clear, and all the texts after it—Mohammed is definitely a man of war and kept defeating the Arabian Jews and he defeated the various Arabian pagans, and after his death his Califs went on and on and on magnificently (ah yes, beautiful wife) magnificently went on conquering. So both Islam and Christianity triumphed by the sword, and of course then started engaging with one another—in the Crusades, in Spain, in North Africa, and at the moment, whether we like it or not, in Iraq and Afghanistan, and God knows where next.

LQ: I take it that you find the Hebrew Bible not only aesthetically deeper than the New Testament, but also that you find it—how shall I say it—spiritually deeper?

>>12410231
What, you couldn't be bothered to add
>Books for this feel
to the end of your post?
You're just blatantly posting your little off topic blog without even trying to make it literature related.
Fucking kill yourself.

>>12410390
Please kindly neck yourself

>>12410697
Some unironically say 4chan is /pol/

>>12410709
I hate people who visit /pol/ because they drag down the quality of discussion on every other board.
/mu/ is /pol/ for music
/v/ is /pol/ for video games
/lit/ is /pol/ for """""smart people"""""
Etc, etc.
All of these boards should be apolitical. Each of these boards should (and used to) have their own culture and memes. Now every board is just minor variations on "_____ for this feel?" threads and people responding "based and redpilled." That pasta about low-IQ mystery meat replacing everything with a violent monoculture? That's /pol/.

>>12410709
If you ever visit /pol/ you are tainted ebin and are not welcome again anywhere else on the chans

>>12410722
Since i have not said that and i am not saying that, how have you proved that claim to be false? I'm pretty sure that is said because most of the traffic for the entire website is to /pol/, but that's just what i've heard.

>>12410723
So, to take /v/ as an example, was /pol/ the first and only source of politics infringing upon video games as a hobby? Has nothing else ever tried to force a certain political view into them? Does /pol/ represent all political views or just one side of the political debate?

>>12410729
I didn't say that you said it and I ain't trying to prove shit. see >>12410723 and stop being so fucking argumentative.

>>12410717
HB: The only thing in the New Testament that seems to me spiritually valuable is the general epistle of James, undoubtedly written by a disciple of James, that is to say Jacob the brother of Jesus, by tradition anyway the brother. And that is precisely what Martin Luther wanted thrown out of the Bible—he called it an "epistle of straw"—because it said specifically that faith is not enough, that only works matter, and it ferociously, like the prophet Amos and the first Isaiah, cries out against those who oppress the poor. I'm not sure how much spirituality really interests me in the Gospel of Mark. The Gospel of Mark—and a couple of early reviewers, in places like Kirkus and (what's that other one?) Publisher's Weekly, got very angry with me about this—and they both picked this up and a couple of reviewers I've seen since—where I say that in many ways the author of the Gospel of Mark reminds me of Edgar Allan Poe, in that he writes very very badly on a sentence by sentence basis, and yet he's got a spooky kind of universalizing imagination. You know, he dreams universal nightmares, and it's very hard to get them out of your head.

LQ: Like Dreiser, or Mary Shelley. Both bad writers on the sentence level.

HB: Yeah. Oh yeah. Dreiser is endlessly fascinating in that regard. Sister Carrie breaks my heart, and An American Tragedy hurts so much I hate rereading it. But on a sentence by sentence basis they're impossibly drab and dreadful. And it's quite true, Frankenstein and The Last Man, as prose are very badly written, but they work, they work. And the Gospel of Mark I think is very badly written, by an amateur writer, evidently a Jew in Rome, writing at about the time, you know, word is reaching him that the temple is being destroyed and the city is being burned, and—it is very compelling. And then of course I hate the Gospel of John because as I say candidly in the book it hates me so I hate it. It keeps saying that the Jews are all the children of Satan. Now that's very interesting, in the whole of the Hebrew Bible, except for one brief, rather muted reference, I think in the prophet Zachariah, who's late, the only place where Satan enters is not as a fellow named Satan, a personage named Satan, but as the ha-Satana, the accuser, the prosecuting attorney, at the beginning of the Book of Job. But in the Greek New Testament, the only character who matters besides Jesus Christ is Satan, who is onstage almost non-stop. It's a Satan-haunted piece of work.

>>12410231
You have a moral responsibility to create the next generation. Dangerous conditions don't negate that responsibility. Improvise, adapt, overcome.

>>12410738
>see >>12410723 and stop being so fucking argumentative.
Wasn't the problem that there is a low amount of intelligent discourse because of /pol/?

>>12410720
>>12410721
>>12410722
>>12410723
>>12410728
>>12410729
>>12410736
>>12410738

Fuck (You)

>>12410736
No, you have to stop now because actually you're shit at arguments. It's just white noise. If you want your tendies go get your own you lazy little cunt and clean your room.

>the tranny post-op photos
this shit is fucking satanic and if you believe otherwise you're part of the problem

>>12410748
>It's just white noise.
That's pretty racist of you to say.

>>12410736
>So, to take /v/ as an example, was /pol/ the first and only source of politics infringing upon video games as a hobby?
No, but that doesn't excuse /pol/'s behavior either. Not to mention that any other viewpoint appearing on /v/ these days is probably bait.
>Does /pol/ represent all political views or just one side of the political debate?
If you don't think there's a recognizable /pol/ political outlook, you are lost.

>>12410760
Fuck white people desu

>>12410311
The suicide rate of trannies who transition and are accepted by their family and peers is similar to trannies who transition and aren't accepted.

>>12410748
>>12410757
>>12410760
>>12410761

Let the bird of loudest lay
On the sole Arabian tree
Herald sad and trumpet be,
To whose sound chaste wings obey.

But thou shrieking harbinger,
Foul precurrer of the fiend,
Augur of the fever's end,
To this troop come thou not near.

From this session interdict
Every fowl of tyrant wing,
Save the eagle, feather'd king;
Keep the obsequy so strict.

Let the priest in surplice white,
That defunctive music can,
Be the death-divining swan,
Lest the requiem lack his right.

And thou treble-dated crow,
That thy sable gender mak'st
With the breath thou giv'st and tak'st,
'Mongst our mourners shalt thou go.

Here the anthem doth commence:
Love and constancy is dead;
Phoenix and the Turtle fled
In a mutual flame from hence.

So they lov'd, as love in twain
Had the essence but in one;
Two distincts, division none:
Number there in love was slain.

Hearts remote, yet not asunder;
Distance and no space was seen
'Twixt this Turtle and his queen:
But in them it were a wonder.

So between them love did shine
That the Turtle saw his right
Flaming in the Phoenix' sight:
Either was the other's mine.

Property was thus appalled
That the self was not the same;
Single nature's double name
Neither two nor one was called.

Reason, in itself confounded,
Saw division grow together,
To themselves yet either neither,
Simple were so well compounded;

That it cried, "How true a twain
Seemeth this concordant one!
Love has reason, reason none,
If what parts can so remain."

Whereupon it made this threne
To the Phoenix and the Dove,
Co-supremes and stars of love,
As chorus to their tragic scene:

threnos

Beauty, truth, and rarity,
Grace in all simplicity,
Here enclos'd, in cinders lie.

Death is now the Phoenix' nest,
And the Turtle's loyal breast
To eternity doth rest,

Leaving no posterity:
'Twas not their infirmity,
It was married chastity.

Truth may seem but cannot be;
Beauty brag but 'tis not she;
Truth and beauty buried be.

To this urn let those repair
That are either true or fair;
For these dead birds sigh a prayer.

>>12410761
>No, but that doesn't excuse /pol/'s behavior either.
What is "/pol/'s behavior"? You don't see people on boards as individuals?
>If you don't think there's a recognizable /pol/ political outlook, you are lost.

Ohhhh, now we've finally gotten to your actual reasons for disliking pol:

/pol/ users like things. When they go to discuss the things they like, on a board dedicated to the things they like, they do not shed their political opinions at the door.

So when they're in a thread and some other poster brings up politics and a /pol/ user gives his two cents and you see this, you get butthurt. After making a couple of posts that add nothing to the discussion other than >>>/pol/ >>>/pol/ >>>/pol/, when you go to /qa/ and whine for hirohito to delete /pol/, you're not asking him to delete /pol/. You're asking him to ban opinions you don't agree with.

You see that's the thing with leftism, it can only exist in a highly moderated space. It cannot hold its own with total free speech. That is precisely why /pol/ belongs on 4chan and you don't.

>>12410787
Did you actually write this post or am I going to reply to pasta?

>>12410797
I did. Go ahead and tell us why only one perspective should be allowed here.

>>12410787
>>12410797
>>12410808

Whose woods these are I think I know.
His house is in the village though;
He will not see me stopping here
To watch his woods fill up with snow.

My little horse must think it queer
To stop without a farmhouse near
Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year.

He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound’s the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.

The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.

>>12410813
Wasn't this in Kill Bill? I remember that line at the end.

>>12410787
>>12410808
>/pol/ users like things. When they go to discuss the things they like, on a board dedicated to the things they like, they do not shed their political opinions at the door.
>So when they're in a thread and some other poster brings up politics and a /pol/ user gives his two cents and you see this, you get butthurt.
It's the same two cents every time, that's my problem with it. It's not that it's some guy's two cents, it's that it's the same exact two fucking cents every time. I already know /pol/ doesn't like niggers and trannies, why does every thread have to be about it?
Also, for someone who made such a fuss about "I never said that," you do a lot of implying here. I don't want hiro to delete /pol/, and I don't mind the occasional /pol/ post, but I cannot stand every board becoming /pol/.
I don't believe only one perspective should be allowed here. That is literally what I'm arguing against, you can't even say that people should talk about literature on the literature board and politics on the politics board without everybody jumping down your throat with "go back to r*ddit" and images like >>12410611
The fact that you like the posters on /lit/ more than you like the posters on /pol/ does not give you license to make /lit/ your own personal shitposting grounds. Other people use this board.

>>12410231
this isn’t /lit/ you fag

>>12410854
>I already know /pol/ doesn't like niggers and trannies, why does every thread have to be about it?
Aren't you being just a tad hyperbolic?
>but I cannot stand every board becoming /pol/.
Why? Do you think it's artificial or is it possibly a result of 4chan's unrestricted discussion?
>I don't believe only one perspective should be allowed here.
Cool. I agree with that.
>That is literally what I'm arguing against, you can't even say that people should talk about literature on the literature board and politics on the politics board
So where do books about politics or books with politics go? Neither board? What exactly is "politics"? Can you define it at all?
>Other people use this board.
And some of them have different opinions from you. You can't tell everyone who disagrees with you to leave.

>>12410259
It never got pulled.

Funny how so many people here are crying about how this thread isn't /lit/ related yet >>12398849 has been up for literally two days now with zero complaints.

>>12410891
I've reported both of these threads. Blame the nonexistent moderation.

>>12410787
>leftism

>>12410901
Mods have to walk a fine line between permission (4channel's niche) and interference.

You can only attribute board culture to mods up to a point.

This board has become a stinking, festering pile of garbage and should be ignited like Gehenna so as to rid us all of the foul stench of foam-ridden, blackening corpses in the hot light of this late hour of civilization.

I loathe the internet, and long for the day it comes at last to quiet ruin, servers overgrown with weeds, dandelions sprouting from the eye sockets of its inhuman cyber dwellers.

I for one fancy kudzu bursting out of my stinking navel, as if to reach for a Natural Light I could never bear.

>>12410891
hmm strange, it's almost like some people are trying to censor stuff they don't like

>>12410901
Janny busy playing tranny
Tucking pee-pee
or is it wangy
Deep inside his cavernous thangy

>>12410901
>tfw I used to repeatedly report off-topic threads on /lit/
>tfw I got hit with a fucking ban for "abusing the report function", even though the most recent thread I reported wound up being deleted

Mods=fags, always been true and is still true.

>>12410276
when was this speedrunning meeting?

>>12410761
>>12410854
I'm sorry, but you just sound like a massive fucking pussy. The entirety of /lit/ users should be able to discuss ideas and philosophies of any variety with everyone having the opportunity to speak their mind about it.

>>12410987
Hi, welcome to /lit/, now gtfo

>>12410987
Genuinely, i don't think that people like him hate the other opinions just for existing on their board, i think they hate those opinions being more popular than theirs, being stronger than theirs and being more resistant to arguments. That's why they think the abundance of "/pol/ thoughts" must be the result of some artificial manipulation.

>>12410993
"But we shouldn't have discussions because it's just obvious that I'm right and you're wrong... It's just obvious!"

>>12410993
>gtfo
yikes! as you would say

lit has really turned to shit since r/socialism invaded, trying to censor wrongthink

>>12411017
Lurk more, zoomer

>>12411024
time to go back sweety x

>>12411000
I might as well add you to this post >>12411000

An idea shouldn't be parroted because its popular, but because its correct. If you can't disprove why their opinions or ideas are wrong then that makes you no different than a toddler throwing a temper tantrum.

>>12411000
>>12410987
I'm on the right, politically, but I keep it in my pants, and I wish people would do the same on the literature board. Seriously, how much of a "contribution" is it to say
>implying black "people" can read
It is not an coincidence that the effortposting:shitposting ratio declined at the same time thinkers and writers popular with the /pol/ crowd began being posted more.

>>12411026
If it means being away from you and your ilk, gladly, although one struggles to return where they've never been.

>>12411040
Meant to put >>12411008

>>12411040
I'm not here to disprove their ideas, THAT'S WHAT THE POLITICS BOARD IS FOR
If everybody started posting about airplanes all of a sudden I wouldn't say, "boats are superior," I would say "Go back to /n/ to discuss transportation."

>>12411052
Please, tell us what politics is limited to. Where does discussion on a book about politics go?

>>12411058
The sticky is clear on this:
>If you want to discuss politics, go to /pol/

>>12411065
So what's politics? How is discussion of basic biology politics?

>>12411068
If you're discussing biology, go to >>/sci/

>>12410609
cope

>>12411010
I wouldn't say that. I usually say something like gtfo of here because it confuses ppl.

>>12411008
It's not always possible to hold discourse, sometimes all they needed was a punch in the face, other times they should read Cicero and learn how to make an argument. I for one grow weary of incessant strawmanning, shifting goalposts, interchangeable terminology, being told things are obviously, being misquoted (or more accurately mis-implied), and the repetition of statements. If you know what's going on then you can know that I know what's going on too. Just keep /pol/ in /pol/ where it lives. Now this thread is not a /lit/ thread and these arguments are not relevant to this board, all it does is steal time for little benefit if any. It's not even good sport.

>>12411075
So give us a definitive list of what we're allowed to talk about, because clearly "literature" is too vague since there is a lot of science literature and political literature and you're saying those aren't allowed to be discussed here.

>>12411065
So when it comes to political pamphlets we're just not allowed to discuss them? Because I know for a fact that we discuss plenty of those.

>>12410380
yikes, imagine posting this unironically

>>12411095
Read the sticky you dumbfuck

>>12410231
Just homeschool them

>>12411095
There are books about literally everything. Do you want this to be /b/? Yes or no? Because if you allow everything there are books about to be discussed here this board will be even more of an unusable mess than it is now.
You should ask the science board and the politics board for their respective recommendations, because it would make sense that they would know more about those subjects. I wouldn't come to /lit/ to ask for books about guns, I would go to /k/, because that's the weapons specialty board. Why should I assume /lit/ would know more about gun books than /k/?
If it were up to me, /lit/ would be limited to fiction, poetry, drama, and the secondary literature concerning those arts. There would be a separate board for philosophy and theology.

>>12411102
Ask the mods in the IRC channel, they seem pretty clear in the sticky.

>>12410231
Are you such a cuck that you admitted that you have no control over your own kids? Lol.

>>12411111
>/lit/ is for the discussion of literature, specifically books (fiction & non-fiction), short stories, poetry, creative writing, etc.

>If you want to discuss history, religion, or the humanities, go to /his/.
So no old books? Nothing about religion? Nothing about anything to do with society?

>If you want to discuss politics, go to /pol/.
What is politics?

>Philosophical discussion can go on either /lit/ or /his/, but those discussions of philosophy that take place on /lit/ should be based around specific philosophical works to which posters can refer.
How can we talk about philosophy when we can't talk about politics or history?

The sticky is dogshit. If you're defending it then you're completely unconcerned with the concepts behind it.

>>12411121
>fiction
Including lord of the rings, despite how heavily politically and religiously charged it is?

Is LOTR politics, philosophy, history, or lit?

>>12411130
What is a dictionary.

>>12411138
What is an argument from authority? Defend your own fucking ideas you stupid coward.

>>12411130
>>If you want to discuss history, religion, or the humanities, go to /his/.
>So no old books? Nothing about religion? Nothing about anything to do with society?
Yes, those belong on >>>/his/, as the sticky says. If you're that invested in discussing those, go to /his/.
>>If you want to discuss politics, go to /pol/.
>What is politics?
Backed into the final corner of arguing semantics lol
>>Philosophical discussion can go on either /lit/ or /his/, but those discussions of philosophy that take place on /lit/ should be based around specific philosophical works to which posters can refer.
>How can we talk about philosophy when we can't talk about politics or history?
I know you're new to this whole reading thing but there are philosophers who discuss things that aren't politics and history. Stuff like fiction, poetry, etc.

>>12411133
If you want to discuss how LOTR works as a work of fiction, or have a thread discussing the characters and themes and prose, that belongs here.
If you want to discuss how black people are orcs or whatever, take it to /pol/

>>12411145
>Yes, those belong on >>>/his/, as the sticky says. If you're that invested in discussing those, go to /his/.
Yet you never see people going "waaah, >>>/his/ >>>/his/ >>>/his/" whenever anyone mentions ANYTHING that happened more than a year ago. Odd, that.
>Backed into the final corner of arguing semantics lol
Says the person touting it as some absolute standard. I'm not allowed to ask what that absolute standard actually means? Why?
>I know you're new to this whole reading thing but there are philosophers who discuss things that aren't politics and history. Stuff like fiction, poetry, etc.
And who decides if those things are "political" or not?

>>12411153
>If you want to discuss how LOTR works as a work of fiction, or have a thread discussing the characters and themes and prose, that belongs here.
No we fucking can't because even MENTIONING LOTR counts as "dog whistling" for all the political elements of the books.

>>12411159
>Yet you never see people going "waaah, >>>/his/ >>>/his/ >>>/his/" whenever anyone mentions ANYTHING that happened more than a year ago. Odd, that
I was doing this for a very long time before I gave it up for a more general sourness.

Why are you acting like you don't know what politics means? I know you do, don't be dishonest. You've swallowed the Marxist "durr everything is political" nonsense and you believe it frees you to do whatever you want, without regard for other people.
I've never seen a thread about John Keats turn into a political catfight. I've never seen a thread about George Eliot turn into a political catfight.
People who are here to post politics aren't interested in the literary aspect of /lit/, they just want to do the same shit they do on every other board, complain about trannies/jews/blacks/women, but this time with the new flavor of books.

>>12411163
What are you posting about LOTR that gets people here upset with you?

Recently experiences I've had on /lit/ include the discussion of the style of Virginia Woolf and the prose of William Hope Hodgson. I've read some but not all of Woolf and I'm interested now in getting back into some of her work with my newfound perspective, and then possibly discussing further whatever it is I've found. Regarding William Hope Hodgson, I actually first heard about him whilst perusing /tg/, as I am wont to do on occasion and the world of The Night Land was being discussed there so I looked it up and mentioned it a couple times here on /lit/ and apparently it has very purple prose, and an interesting world and premise, so I'm going to buy it and read it and most like will make a thread to share my thoughts and hopefully some other anons have also read it and want to talk about it also.

>>12411177
>I was doing this for a very long time before I gave it up for a more general sourness.
lol, i don't doubt that.

>Why are you acting like you don't know what politics means?
Because discussion of biology is politics. Discussion of economics is politics, discussion of fashion is politics, discussion of the meaning of truth and falsehood is politics, discussion of morality is politics, discussion of the legal system is politics. discussion of how shitty patrick rothfuss is as a writer is politics.

What the fuck doesn't fall under the umbrella of politics in your view? It's such a subjective term.

>People who are here to post politics aren't interested in the literary aspect of /lit/, they just want to do the same shit they do on every other board, complain about trannies/jews/blacks/women, but this time with the new flavor of books.

>You've swallowed the Marxist "durr everything is political" nonsense and you believe it frees you to do whatever you want, without regard for other people.
No, i'm responding to how those people are using that tactic to force everything to accept their beliefs as inviolable truth.

>>12411133
>hurdur some books touch upon political topics, so "I am a liberal and I don't like trannies" is a thread that definitely belongs on a literature board
Fuck off, you boring sophist retard.

>>12411181
>here
Something is only political if /lit/ says it is?

https://www.wired.com/2018/11/geeks-guide-lotr-orcs/

>>12411181
The orcs are npcs or niggers or some shit now

>>12411206
Wow such great commentary this is why i come to /lit/.

>>12411218
I'm not sure yet if you're actually retarded but he's right about the boring sophist part

>>12411218
Feel free to stop coming here. No one is going to miss your disingenuous oligophrenic ramblings.

>>12410276
Those people are usually only in the deep end of Tumblr, where 98% of their energy is spent trying to police each other until they are polite and un-triggering as possible. As a consequence, what amounted to differences in gender, feeling expression, presentation etc. resulting in full blown autistic oppression Olympics where whatever niche bullshit that the person identifies with is a valid contestant and must be constantly brought up and utilised in online discussion, even though this completely obfuscates the original issue (i.e. a group of people who are oppressed due to physio/psyholigical factors that are out of their control.)

It's probably arrogant for me to imply that I'm the arbiter of what is and isn't a valid trans identity. But considering you only find these types of Tumblr and they themselves do not put any thought into the concept of gender or consistent application of, or honest debate regarding, the trans identity, then I'm forced to conclude that they have themselves what they are talking about.

Stop listening to conservative talking points and just ignore these people.

>>12411201
>What the fuck doesn't fall under the umbrella of politics in your view? It's such a subjective term.
This is exactly what I'm trying to say. It relates back to my previous point that because there are books about everything, in theory /lit/ could be a jigsaw of totally unrelated communities spamming each other to death, like /vg/. Allowing any and all political discussion because grad students like to talk about the politics of power in Henry Miller or whatever can't work, it breaks the board. We would become /pol/ with a slightly higher rate of book mentions. Where I take issue with that is that we already have a politics board, and this is the only literature board on the website, and the only good one on the internet that moves faster than a crippled snail. At a certain point it boils down to a "I know it when I see it" type test.

Also I'm sorry if I've been coming across like a dick, I just feel very strongly about this. /lit/ has been my main board for 5 or 6 years now and the last 2 have seen some changes that I haven't been a fan of.

>>12411201
Even an old person climbs the palm tree.

>>12411234
This is not true. Don’t buy the whole “they’re only on tumblr” shit because they’re everywhere. I saw two guys get fired from my last job for misgendering someone. I left that job thank god buy my friends there say they were all required to sign a waiver saying they can’t post anything about trans issues on social media.

>>12411211
See, posting that in say an OP is just baiting for angry responses. You're not there for an in depth argument about the lore, or about how Tolkien constructed languages. You're there for (you)s and righteous anger.
Besides, the grievance industry will always have something to complain about with whatever you enjoy. I've taken the position of not letting it get in the way of my enjoyment. I'm not going to stop reading Christopher Marlowe because some bluecheck on twitter doesn't like how he portrayed jews. I'm going to continue to enjoy the writing, and I'm going to continue to focus on the writing.

Alright I'm burnt out, going to bed. Good chat guys

this thread is still off topic lol

>>12411256
>I saw two guys get fired from my last job for misgendering someone
>they were all required to sign a waiver saying they can’t post anything about trans issues on social media

And I was abducted by aliens.

Listen, I'm sure that's exactly how it went down because you fired them and you reached that decision after considering the policies and behaviour on display, but I'm sorry that I don't believe some anonymous fag whose story doesn't make sense. If they did nothing but misgendered, someone then why is there a crack down on social media use? Unless they were misgendering them and making a show on social media.

>>12411310

>>12411310
you're a faggot

it's literally against the law to misgender people in some countries. seek help.

>>12411256
>>12411310

Besides which, that's not even what I meant. The specific phenomenon of "you don't have to be dysphoric to be trans XD" largely stems from Tumblr. Of course trans people seeking acknowledgement from the world is a thing, and of course companies with strict policies is a thing, but that has nothing to do with my answer, lol.

>>12411325
>I just innocently changed a few comments I should have known would piss people off
>what is intention in writing
>I'm a victim please help

You can just tell that guy doesn't shower.

>>12411345
Oh boy, I can't wait until Jordan Peterson goes to prison. Any day now.

Tell me what the difference between that legislation and any other anti-bullying laws are and then maybe I'll buy into your pseud slippery slope shit.

>>12411352
>everything i don't like is bogeymen
Strong case, you've convinced me.

>>12411357
I don't care about people trolling their student magazine? Shit, you got me.

It kinda reminds me of nazis denying the holocaust.
They wouldn't really care if it did happen, they're just trying to escape scrutiny.d

>>12411370
What do you care about? Besides just you, of course.

>>12411371
>They wouldn't really care if it did happen, they're just trying to escape scrutiny.
Would it not be a better thing for the world if it had not actually happened? What is the actual benefit to the world of it being real?

>>12411375
Ouch, you got me again. Still haven't proven a slippery slope bro.

>>12410819
Death Proof

>>12411393
Define what you require as evidence.

>>12411352
>Oh boy, I can't wait until Jordan Peterson goes to prison. Any day now.
what did you mean by this? and why do you bring up memerson? are you implying that just because he hasn't gone to prison the criminalisation of speech shouldn't be taken seriously? i don't get it

>Tell me what the difference between that legislation and any other anti-bullying laws are and then maybe I'll buy into your pseud slippery slope shit.
why would we need anti-bullying laws? for what exact purpose? who will deem what's okay and what's not? it's literally just a way to control speech

>inb4 im replying to bait

>>12410987
anyone can discuss anything here, none of us (but the jannies) can stop you. but it's stupid to be asshurt when someone gets flamed for a /pol/ opinion too

>>12411421
>a /pol/ opinion
You could just say a politically right opinion or even just "an opinion". Why the boogeyman?

>>12410740
people can contribute to the future of society without procreating themselves.
you can adopt, teach, contribute financially, babysit, write, create art, or really do anything else that lasts

>>12411425
i mean i could say "right-leaning opinion" or something, but we're not talking about something so general as that. i'm talking about opinions that are blatantly racist and sexist largely, which are not uniform across the right side of the aisle, and certainly seem to be rather uniform on /pol/.
i don't mean it as a boogeyman, but simply a descriptor of a portion of the userbase of this website.

>>12411411
Something more substantial than a daily mail screenshot (I mean, Jesus).

>>12411419
>what did you mean by this? and why do you bring up memerson?

How do you not know why I brought this up? Lol.

>are you implying that just because he hasn't gone to prison the criminalisation of speech shouldn't be taken seriously?

I mean, it hasn't happened, so...

>why would we need anti-bullying laws?

Don't dodge the question. If you can't point out a difference then it's not a slippery slope towards "criminalising speech", its a prevention of trans people being bullied in the workplace.

>it's literally just a way to control speech
>I can't swear in school waaaahh :(

>everything I don't understand is bait

>>12411437
Not him, but not agreeing to simply treat gender dysphoria with gender reassignment is exclusively a /pol/, or right wing opinion? What's wrong with you buddy?

>>12411437
>you can adopt, teach, contribute financially, babysit, write, create art, or really do anything else that lasts
Gotta love how half of those reasons directly involve children, just someone else's.

>i'm talking about opinions that are blatantly racist and sexist largely
Which are terms i'm guessing you will be completely unwilling to define? The left is extremely "racist" when they bitch and moan about white privilege and blame all problems on white men, but when /pol/ blames jews and whores they're the racists and sexists?

>>12411441
>Something more substantial than a daily mail screenshot (I mean, Jesus).
No really, i'm pretty sure i can find something to fit whatever criteria would satisfy you. Don't dodge the question.

what if someone is incredibly feminine as a male to the point where their quality of life would increase?

is there really no circumstance where you find transitioning is acceptable.

>>12411458
>what if someone really really really looks like napoleon? would it be so unreasonable for them to be exiled to a small island?

>>12411453
First explain what the phenomenon is, how it came about, what the end result will be, why that end result is a problem, and use evidence to show that it is reaching somewhere. Preferably with good historical examples that you can cross-reference.

>>12410231
>brave mother of little boy proudly supports his curiosity about crossdressing and submits a photos from a "performance" session of the boy with naked adult male dragqueen publicly on social media to fight bigotry and prejudice
mfw I realize european caliphate is now option choice of lesser evil

>>12411463
>what the phenomenon is
Just for final clarification, we're talking about the concept of gender and transgender in general, right? because i can do all that in a single wikipedia article if that's the case.

>>12410368
>This and I’m a liberal
This is perfect because it's your fault it's going to end up that way.

>>12411441
>we need to have laws in order for kids not to swear in school
fucking hell, stop chugging your tranny pills, you're not making any sense

>>12411458
If people already think they're a woman they're probably better off.

>>12410580
you're literally just co-opting the word you commie freak

>>12411458
Well that's the question isn't it? The whole gender thing as an 'expression' of sex is very anglophone, to the point where it confuses people about sex itself.

Since we don't really have any clear markers to identify a clear-cut case of 'wrong brain in the wrong body', it becomes a matter of suffering management like you said. I still don't think that we know enough about gender dysphoria to assume that gender reassignment would actually cure their suffering.

you people should look into the david reimer case

grim stuff

>>12411493
What i don't get is why fat people haven't rode the coattails of all this "i don't identify with my body blah blah" to force the government to pay for weight and skin reduction surgery. Shit, that'd save so much fucking money in the long run.

>>12411447
because children are our future, and you have to contribute, directly or indirectly, to the development a child to contribute to society's future.
but you don't need to sexually reproduce to do so, i think.

and when i say racist statements, i mean ones like "all indians shit in streets" or "irish people are stupid." while i do personally believe in some kind of white privilege, i don't really think it's relevant to my point here, so i don't care about it right now.

>>12411446
i must have given the wrong intention with the post i chose to reply to, due to not reading the full chain. i do not consider that to be a "/pol/" opinion, i was not trying to assign any particular opinion in this thread that label, but rather make a statement about those opinions in general. i hope that clarifies it.

>>12411500
that's what i'm going to cite should >>12411463
respond again.

>>12410276
You ever see those fucks that put horns on their skull or get ear and lip guages in the style of savages in Africa? It's like that.

the thing I really can't stand about those demented freaks is their need to constantly proselytise and try to trick people into joining their cult as a way to validate their retarded choices
I keep seeing these creeps preying on vulnerable teenagers who are just insecure about their identity and place in the world and I can't help it but feel like I could have fallen for this shit if I was still young and naive

>>12411508
there's something inherently satanic about it

>>12411502
>"all indians shit in streets" or "irish people are stupid."
Those statements are generally true though. If someone on /pol/ says they're absolutes then they're either stupid or trolling. The issue is that just pointing out statistics that verify the claim that, for instance "most indians shit in the street" is racist regardless of whether or not it's supported by evidence.

>while i do personally believe in some kind of white privilege
You're discriminating against a race. What definition of racism allows you to get away with that? Do you really think "actual racists" are just picky fucks who only hate the fact that someone's skin is darker and there's nothing more to it? Would it be fair if you were called a racist and accused of only hating whites because of their skin color instead of socio-economic factors that influence the so-called "white privilege?"

>>12411501
you're a lazy boy

>>12410295
This is that 14 yearold-tier passive aggressive psychoanalysis every dipshit kid tries in slightly better words. People invariably do this as a shortcut and workaround to being a good arguer.
>>>/reddit/

>>12411514
and trans are faggots in denial.

pay for my lipo, you mass-normative bigot!

You can always just disown and neglect the little prick until they’re 18, when you can kick them the fuck out of your house.

>>12411519
I mean, I never disagreed that it was a mental disorder. You're still a lazy boy for the false equivalence.

>>12411526
Body Dysphoria is body dysphoria. i identify as a skinny chad.

How autistic can you be to oppose people seeking treatment for a life ruining disease?

Like I get being disgusted by non passing trannies on a visceral level, but being actively malicious against people seeking to alleviate the suffering caused to them by a condition they did not choose to have is incredibly small souled.


>>12411500
this is literally just an example of there existing an inherent sex identity which if people live against causes them great distress

reimer being force transitioned by his doctor is p much the same as an actually dysphoric person(aka someone with a fucked sense of internal identity) not being allowed to transition

>>12411508
the reason for """proselytizing""" is compassion and a lived experience of similar situation
repression is hell and raising awareness of trans issues helps break it down earlier since it offers real alternatives, if I was aware of transition being a possibility and trans people having the prospect of living reasonably normal lives I would have transitioned years earlier and helped both my mental health and my future passing prospects

now I agree that some trans people do get a bit over the top but that;s like just the result of a crudeness inherent to most people, it only seems more """""satanic""""" because their interest lies in a contentious topic

>>12411525
You're supposed to get a kid with the intent of chiseling them into a better version or counterpart of yourself you base shitstain.

>>12411470
>we're talking about the concept of gender and transgender in general, right?

No, what you assume is occurring in the growing acceptance of trans rights, and the consequences therein.

>>12411503
>David Reimer

Ahh yes, the case where medical doctor's assumed that gender could change once the biological pieces were in place, complete with sick paedophilia acts to put a cherry on top of the reactionary cake.

Which is literally opposite of what most trans people advocate, who felt they were always the gender they seek to transition into despite their biological reality, while also acknowledging the validity of intersex peoples and denouncing pedophilia. Not sure how that's relevant.

>>12411532
It's not just body though, innit? What I find ironic is that while they claim to not focus on how sex expresses itself and modulates behaviour, they simultaneously claim that their own behaviour does not fit their sex.

>>12411536
>How autistic can you be to oppose people seeking treatment for a life ruining disease?
Wait, are we talking about sex-confirmation surgery or lobotomy? Because lobotomy was also once considered a treatment for a life ruining disease.

So really, how do you know you're helping? How would you feel if you found out you were doing them an immense harm?

>>12411536
You shouldn't take internet 4chan-speak for a reflection of real life interactions with these people buddeh. The argument is whether gender reassignment is treatment or not.

>>12411537
It’s a last resort in case the little wankstain can’t pull themsevles together.

>>12411542
>what you assume is occurring in the growing acceptance of trans rights
You mean that it's happening at all or what's causing it? You're not actually denying that public "acceptance" is increasing are you?
>and the consequences therein.
The unnecessary death and sterilization of thousands of mentally ill people. I'd consider that wrong. There are more ethical ways of going about it at the very least.

>Not sure how that's relevant.
The david reimer case is the basis for the entire concept of people being transgender.

>Money made the concept of gender a broader, more inclusive concept than one of masculine/feminine. For him, gender included not only one's status as a man or a woman, but was also a matter of personal recognition, social assignment, or legal determination; not only on the basis of one's genitalia but also on the basis of somatic and behavioral criteria that go beyond genital differences.

>>12411536
>Like I get being disgusted by non passing trannies on a visceral level, but being actively malicious against people seeking to alleviate the suffering caused to them by a condition they did not choose to have is incredibly small souled.
i wish someone would post the horrifying post-op photos, which you advocate for - but unfortunately this is a blue board

>>12411513
i frankly don't really know what to make of that, so i'll just say that i don't like to make generalizations like that, because they imply that there is something about the people inherently or biologically, that makes them shit in the streets, rather than their social environment (how many american born indians shit in the street?), so that statement would both be literally untrue, and also misleading

i don't think white people are bad for being historically priveleged though. it's not a negative judgement, nor a judgement about a specific race, but rather a statement about the groups of people who now hold much of the world's power and wealth, and how they identify, rather than the biological or moral status of any group of people.
i'm a bit tired, so forgive me if i've mangled my words a bit

>>12411567
Even if we did, people will just say "that was just a bad surgeon, it's not true vaginoplasty" etc etc.

>>12411536
How autistic can you be to propose people undergoing life ruining treatment for a made up disease?

>>12410259
That's true for this one chick I knew in high school
Freshman and Junior year she hung around the people I knew, she was normal and ordinary. Then in Junior and Senior year she started hanging more with the LGBT after making friends with a gay kid in her class

I saw her at college a few years after and she was full blown trans

>>12411584
would they? are people that stupid? jesus

>>12411556
If you fear your kid succumbing to the pressures of the brainwashed in those statist cauldrons claiming the lion's share of your child's education: homeschool. Who that was hard.
The left with criminalize disowning trannys anyway.

>>12411545
>Because lobotomy was also once considered a treatment for a life ruining disease
>leeches were used to reduce illness, therefore blood transfusion is a liberal science

Things can't change, amright? If something is a medical treatment, then it must be like this other bad medical treatment.

>>12411560
>or what's causing it?
This.

>The unnecessary death and sterilization of thousands of mentally ill people
How though? For the death part. The sterilisation can be solved with IVF.

>I'd consider that wrong
I'd consider ignoring human suffering is wrong as well, so here is where we conflict.

>There are more ethical ways of going about it at the very least.
Like what? What do you know has worked that liberals are magically ignoring and trans people haven't tried?

>The david reimer case is the basis for the entire concept of people being transgender
And his doctor's were fucking wrong, lol. Just the concept existing isn't some evil, physical thing that infects people's minds like Biblical sin. Acknowledging the need for "personal recognition, social assignment, or legal determination"
isn't some new idea. Similarly, if you thought that it was"only on the basis of one's genitalia"and not "also on the basis of somatic and behavioral criteria that go beyond genital differences" Lycurgus would slap the shit out of you.

>>12411580
>so i'll just say that i don't like to make generalizations like that, because they imply that there is something about the people inherently or biologically, that makes them shit in the streets, rather than their social environment (how many american born indians shit in the street?), so that statement would both be literally untrue, and also misleading
It's most likely a societal reason, but nonetheless if you bring it up in the wrong group you'll be called a racist and any attempt to bring evidence into the conversation will just make it worse. But for whatever the reason, most indians do shit in the street.

>but rather a statement about the groups of people who now hold much of the world's power and wealth
How do you know that to be the case? Have you looked through the most powerful people in the world and determined that there were practically no asian or jewish or black people among them?

>>12411588
>made-up disease
>how is psychology real XDDD

>>12411597
>>12411601
calm down, freak

>>12411545
>So really, how do you know you're helping?
Because I went from a state of deep and hopeless despair and just counting the months until I actually grew the courage to kill myself at the ripe age of 21 because being a man was unbearable any longer to actually feeling reasonably good and happy about the prospects of my future.

>How would you feel if you found out you were doing them an immense harm?
This is concern trolling. Maybe, in some hypothetical way, this form of treatment which is supported by ((((the medical profession))), and praised in all mentions of the lived experience of the patients, is actually, somehow, harmful, dare you take this risk, you possibly immoral and cruel person?

It's completely ridiculous. What petty exception you can potentially find of someone like regretting starting to transition or whatever is irrelevant on a grand scale and completely outweighed by the overwhelming majority of actually dysphoric trans people who benefit from transitioning.


>>12411567
You not finding someone's genitals aesthetic is not an argument to justify demonising people for undergoing whatever treatment is available to reduce the body horror they experience from no choice of their own.

The disgust you feel while looking at a neo-vagina is echoed ten times over by the average transwoman perception of her natal penis.

>>12411588
Ah, yes. Completely made up. You ignoring other people's, often heartfelt,

>>12411591
Have you ever considered the idea that people simply associate with people who they feel an affinity towards? Birds of a feather and all.

Especially for marginalized groups for whom being openly a member faces unique challenges people might hesitate and need to gather a bit of resolve and confidence(perhaps from having support structure of their own tribe) to come out and be themselves.

You do not know the inner world of the "chick you knew in high school", you can't tell whether their normalcy was genuine and true expression of their highest actualized self or a merely facade.

>>12410247
You cannot have the organs. It's impossible. You can have crude semblances of such. That's the thing. Healthy minds, trans or not, can understand that. The desire to have the organs of the opposite sex, will never be fulfilled. You must learn to handle that desire, larping and decorations won't help you - just like painting over a wound won't heal it.
Cutting the penis, in part or in whole is evil and pathological.

>>12411613
>You not finding someone's genitals aesthetic is not an argument to justify demonising people for undergoing whatever treatment is available to reduce the body horror they experience from no choice of their own.
>The disgust you feel while looking at a neo-vagina is echoed ten times over by the average transwoman perception of her natal penis.
im sorry, but how fucking deranged are you? surely, you must be trolling

>>12411605
Owwies. I knew this thread wouldn't get anywhere, but I didn't expect my feelings to be hurt but such an immense intellect.

Is transsexuality an illness of society, the mind, the soul or the body? They themselves ask to be 'treated'. So what's the correct solution?

>>12411597
>>leeches were used to reduce illness, therefore blood transfusion is a liberal science
Leeches are still used for certain types of wounds. They're just not used for "blood letting" anymore. What the hell was this meant to imply? That lobotomy is still good for some things? Surely not.
>Things can't change, amright? If something is a medical treatment, then it must be like this other bad medical treatment.
How do you know that it's not the same? You better be fucking certain considering the consequences for so many people.

>This.
It's a fad, hormones in the food and water, mental illness.

>How though?
Dick amputation happens to be irreversible, and giving kids puberty blockers is chemical castration.

>The sterilisation can be solved with IVF.
For the biological women, yes. The men have no hope.

>I'd consider ignoring human suffering is wrong as well, so here is where we conflict.
One of the biggest issues for a doctor is picking the treatment that will do the least harm. I would advocate that there must be a better way of going about it than genital mutilation.

>Like what? What do you know has worked that liberals are magically ignoring and trans people haven't tried?
Well if the point is just to sterilize the mentally ill then just do it. Don't fuck with people and waste time by telling them that they're the wrong sex and all that.

>Acknowledging the need for "personal recognition, social assignment, or legal determination"
isn't some new idea.
It is for this sort of thing. It's only 70 years old at most.

>Similarly, if you thought that it was"only on the basis of one's genitalia"and not "also on the basis of somatic and behavioral criteria that go beyond genital differences
Is "i want to be blind" a legally protected identity? is "i want to be paralyzed" one? what about "i want to have a tail?" These things exist too in not insignificant numbers.

>>12411618
> Healthy minds, trans or not, can understand that.

Yeah, and? From a strictly outcome based point of view, if it helps them then who cares? Why is the metaphysics of genitals so important to you? More importantly, why are you ignoring the trans people who don't get surgery (i.e. most of them)?

>>12411624
you keep getting blown the fuck out in literally every reply, it's getting bothersome

>>12411613
>Because I went from a state of deep and hopeless despair and just counting the months until I actually grew the courage to kill myself at the ripe age of 21 because being a man was unbearable any longer to actually feeling reasonably good and happy about the prospects of my future.
And if medication had removed those negative feelings would you have been equally okay with that? Because there is medication that has that effect.

>and praised in all mentions of the lived experience of the patients
That is flat fucking wrong. There are countless testimonies of people who have had their lives become immensely worse as a result of getting surgery. The suicide rate for post-op transgenders goes up, not down. Again, those same testimonies were touted as evidence for the efficacy of the lobotomy.

>What petty exception you can potentially find of someone like regretting starting to transition or whatever is irrelevant on a grand scale and completely outweighed by the overwhelming majority of actually dysphoric trans people who benefit from transitioning.
The people that kill themselves are irrelevant? What the fuck am i even talking to?

>>12410380
Fascinating. How comes?
Is there any reason at all to fear it? Are you gay? Effeminate?

>>12411633
You just ignore the suicide rate, don't you? You think it's the result of bullying, don't you?

>>12411598
6 7 17 19 20 23 24 24 26 27 29
24 listed twice because of a tie.
out of the top 30 wealthiest people.
this is even more of an outlier, because europeans are not the majority of the world population. and if you go back 100 years, when china was still crippled by opium, there were even fewer powerful chinese people (though perhaps more powerful japanese people)
i think we can look to recent history too: fixed peg whatchacallit banking system after bretton woods putting a lot of responsibility (which in that case didn't directly correlate to power) in america's hands, america's role in the surrender of japan and it's new constitution, america's role in SK's development, the sykes picot agreement's effects on the middle east.
there is a bit of word vomit, but i think i've provided a pretty good case here

>>12411633
>Yeah, and?
You don't care about bodily integrity, self-harm and the like?
>From a strictly outcome based point of view, if it helps them then who cares?
There was a study that a lot of them regret that transition surgery. It's heavily hidden because of liberal and jewish bias against health.
Whatever it is they are getting, it isn't a functional organ, it's a prop. Humans should never be alright with living in a world of props.

>>12411652
>liberal
In this case I actually do mean liberals. Socialists care about health until they join the party.

>>12411652
>It's heavily hidden because of liberal and jewish bias against health.
What's the study?

>>12411648
You looked into their backgrounds that fast? Or did you just look at their skin color and assume they were caucasian and not jewish?

>>12411629
>What the hell was this meant to imply?
Fucking braincell detected. Think through it sweetheart: what is the comparison between lobotomy and reassignment surgery beyond the fact that one is no longer considered valid?

>How do you know that it's not the same?
>you don't know that bro

And neither do you, apparently, because all you have is just vague assumptions, lol.

>hormones in the food and water
>THEY ARE TURNING THE FREAKING FROGS GAY
Also, I accept it's a mental illness, but I also accept that the solution is the one proposed by the trans community at large because it seems to work.

>Dick amputation happens to be irreversible
That causes death? What? That was my specific question.

And what about the trans people who don't want surgery?

>The men have no hope
>I've literally never heard of jerking off in a cup and putting my sperm on ice for IVF
Are you retarded or just desperately trying to make a point?

>I would advocate that there must be a better way of going about it than genital mutilation
Gentle mutilation, which isn't always practiced, and you would advocate for a method that doesn't exist or you would have fucking mentioned it ages ago.

>Well if the point is just to sterilize the mentally ill then just do it
But that's not the point. Why can't you just give me a fucking straight answer and tell me "What do you know has worked that liberals are magically ignoring and trans people haven't tried"?

>legal determination is 70 years old
I'm just going to assume the Lycurgus reference went completely over your head. Start with the Greeks.

>Is "i want to be blind" a legally protected identity?
That is a legally protected identity you fuck head. Or I guess time and money is spent accommodating the disabled for a completely different reason? This just in, ramps on public buildings are a liberal conspiracy, lol. No, you are right, just take that guide dog away from them and boot them out of a wheelchair to will them to not feel this way. Then we won't have to give those deranged free loaders a disability pension anymore.

It's been fun faggot, I hope high school English class goes well because this conversation did not.

>>12411663
Not him, but it might be this one: https://news.brown.edu/articles/2018/08/gender

As to the efficacy of the surgery, yeah, i wish i could post images of it. Women get flesh-burritos as prop dicks, and men get horrible axe wounds that they have to dilate with glass rods several times a day for years to keep from closing up.

Personally, i couldn't imagine sticking a q-tip into a small wound in my arm. If i had to insert a 6 inch glass rod into a wound where my dick and balls once were, i'd pass out immediately. Post-op transmen derive pleasure from this act. I cannot reasonably attribute such a reaction to a mentally sane individual. To me it is no different than the folks in the pain olympics.

>>12411663
>https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/sep/25/bath-spa-university-transgender-gender-reassignment-reversal-research
There's also this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pxxBQm114k

>>12411647
>You just ignore the suicide rate, don't you?
No.

>You think it's the result of bullying, don't you?
Also no. Have you ever spoken to a trans person, or do you not understand what the issue is?

>>12411652
>You don't care about bodily integrity
That's exactly why they transition, lol.

>that a lot of them regret that transition surgery
Which was debunked.

>>12411618
>You cannot have the organs. ... Healthy minds, trans or not, can understand that.
We do.
>The desire ... never be fulfilled.
ok
>You must learn to handle that desire ... won't heal it.
"no"
handling the "desire"(actually a gruesome mental illness) is simply not possible, it gets worse and worse and expecting people to endure that is cruel

larping and decorations is shown to increase the well being of people, you using meme terms to bring the concepts down doesn't change that

now I personally think that like vaginoplasty should probs be taken with greater care than any other aspect of transition because of the reasonably limited level of medicinal advancement but we can't get better at it if we ban it as treatment


>>12411619
I'm reasonably deranged I guess. I have gender dysphoria after all.

But what do you find deranged about the specific bit you quoted?

>>12411626
Letting us take hrt and transition in peace while allowing trans awareness to be a at a reasonable level, neither demonised to prevent people seeking help to find out about the option, nor being at the forefront of media attention to avoid people with unrelated problems to become overeager and see it as a solution, to allow for young people to transition and avoid the most negative impact of their puberties and increase their chances of passing as well as permitting a fair amount of tolerance for visibly trans people without hopes of passing. Also, I guess have national healthcare cover some core aspects of transitioning.

>>12411644
>And if medication had removed those negative feelings would you have been equally okay with that? Because there is medication that has that effect.
Is the medication called Estrogen? Like seriously what are you suggesting as an existing alternative treatment? If there was a magic pill that made dysphoria go away I would have taken it when i was still repressing.

>That is flat fucking wrong. There are countless testimonies of people who have had their lives become immensely worse as a result of getting surgery. The suicide rate for post-op transgenders goes up, not down. Again, those same testimonies were touted as evidence for the efficacy of the lobotomy.
>The people that kill themselves are irrelevant? What the fuck am i even talking to?

I'm not talking primarily about vaginoplasty but rather about transitioning as a whole(with imo the primary benefit arising from HRT), by irrelevant I meant like people who take HRT for a few months decide it's not for them or whatever.

Obviously people who undergo bottom surgery and find that it makes their lives worse to the point of suicide are an important consideration, but I think given the existence of many transwomen who are happy with their neo-vagina most of the regretful patients can be blamed on poor medical performance. Like at this point we have to go through the actual studies to get any further.

>>12411677
>That's exactly why they transition, lol.
The transition is changing their body shape through things like hormones, not mutilating it through surgery.
Heck, if it looked good I probably wouldn't mind but it is absolutely atrocious, and nobody should subject themselves to such garbage.

>>12411671
>Fucking braincell detected. Think through it sweetheart: what is the comparison between lobotomy and reassignment surgery beyond the fact that one is no longer considered valid?
It takes mentally ill people and makes them worse off in life.

>And neither do you, apparently, because all you have is just vague assumptions, lol.
The suicide rate both pre- and post-op "favors" my position.

>That causes death? What? That was my specific question.
From suicide, yes. Sterilization at the very least.

>And what about the trans people who don't want surgery?
46% commit suicide. Not from bullying, but from the realization that they will never be what they imagine themselves to be.

>Are you retarded or just desperately trying to make a point?
That does not last forever. It's even worse for women.

>and you would advocate for a method that doesn't exist or you would have fucking mentioned it ages ago.
I have. Anti-psychotics have been demonstrated to completely remove the feelings of dysphoria.

>But that's not the point.
Hard to say.

>"What do you know has worked that liberals are magically ignoring and trans people haven't tried"?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8839957
You will most likely find a bunch of articles trying their best to debunk it. It's up to you to decide why that is.

>I'm just going to assume the Lycurgus reference went completely over your head. Start with the Greeks.
It simply doesn't matter.

>That is a legally protected identity you fuck head.
No, as in "i want a doctor to permanently blind me because i identify as a blind person".

I genuinely do hope you get proper treatment someday. Telling the mentally ill that their delusions are real is probably one of the most immoral things that has ever happened.

>>12410231
What does this have at all to do with literature? - you could at least supply some source or other to discuss.

>>12411679
>handling the "desire"(actually a gruesome mental illness) is simply not possible
Yes it is. /a/ is full of pedophiles who don't rape kids. Incels don't rape women. Both groups suffer for their unfed and unfulfilled desires.

The media and political classes are full of pedophiles who do rape children. The negroes and muslims rape women. It is better for /a/ and incels to not stoop to their level. Likewise, it is better for transsexuals to keep their genitals. It's actually interesting how the idea of gender being separate from the physical body could have transsexuals who want to change their genitals. I think it is logically flawed, and one of those claims should leave the political group. However, examples of discipline and control are stress tests which make ludicrous demands. In the military it would be to make a camp in the middle of a swamp when there's a better alternative 100-200 meters away.

>>12411677
>No.
You called it irrelevant.

> Have you ever spoken to a trans person, or do you not understand what the issue is?
I have. It's mental illness.

>Is the medication called Estrogen?
Pimozide. But i've heard other anti-psychotics and medicines for treating schizophrenia also work.

>but I think given the existence of many transwomen who are happy with their neo-vagina most of the regretful patients can be blamed on poor medical performance.
We're talking about people who derive sexual pleasure from inserting foreign objects into open wounds on their body. I do not believe they can be considered mentally sound enough for their opinions to matter.

>>12411671
>dropping greek references on someone who clearly doesn't read nor browses /lit/
rude

this is a fucking warzone

>>12411665
i think jewish people have definitely been the beneficiaries of white privelege at some point, especially considered they are considered white in most first world neoliberal countries.

i've looked up the mothers of the first fifteen, the ones that are "suspect" are:
arnault (couldn't find any info on her)
zuckerberg (mother isnt but dad probably is)
ellison (jew)
bloomberg (jew)
page (maybe? in the category on wikipedia, no other info)
brin (jew)

to further cement my point, i am happy to admit that jews can benefit from jewish privelege, as people of any race generally seem to trust and prefer people of the same race as them.

>>12411695
>It is better for /a/ and incels to not stoop to their level. Likewise, it is better for transsexuals to keep their genitals
You are a small souled imbecile. Vile.

I do not know if this really even a warrants a reply but if I do not give one I, of course, "lose the argument" so.

The equivalence is retarded. Pedophiles and rapists actually hurt other people in real, tangible ways. Transpeople undergoing GRS doesn't hurt anyone else other than potentially* harming themselves and upsetting the petty feelings of overly concerned busybodies who should just fuck off.


*subject to people actually posting sources desu

>>12411709
keep looking into it. I believe you may find that it is a myth that caucasians comprise the bulk of the "1%".

But even if they did, what would be the consequences of that? The most successful people have to help everyone else? What if that help only causes more harm?

>>12411712
>Transpeople undergoing GRS doesn't hurt anyone else other than potentially* harming themselves and upsetting the petty feelings of overly concerned busybodies who should just fuck off.
I think he's talking about the people who facilitate the SRS and encourage people to go through with it. They most certainly are hurting others.

>>12411712
>Pedophiles and rapists actually hurt other people in real, tangible ways
That's not what I care about. I care about /a/ and incels not stooping to Hollywood or negro levels of garbage behavior.

>>12411709
jews only consider themselves white when it is beneficial to do so and switch back immediately when it is no longer beneficial. There is quite a large body of evidence for this.

>>12410740
>You have a moral responsibility to create the next generation.
Why?

>>12411725
because letting the species go extinct would be immoral.

>>12411723
i don't think that assertion is really a challenge to my assertion that white privelege can be seen partially through the disproportionate success of jewish people given that many white people consider jews to be the same race as them.
the biology of it doesn't really matter in my opinion, it's who people identify with and trust, and thus share power and opportunity with, and who they don't.

>>12411718
Perhaps, but then like yeah we actually have to go through the facts and see if they are really hurting them.
I definitely remember reading reports of people regretting their SRS, but I also know for a fact that there are people who are much happier after undergoing it. Myself I'm on the edge about getting it because of these very real risks desu so I don't really have a homerun point. The argument gets more complex here, I'm not equipped to actually conclude it.

>>12411720
ok
Like this is still vile, but at least it's like novel. So it's all about racial purity and standards of the members of a culture?

>>12411447
Gotta love how half of those reasons directly involve children, just someone else's.
>Was that supposed to refute his point?

>>12411735
Fair enough. But what is the purpose of bringing attention to white privilege in the first place?

>>12411723
It's not like they're hiding it on their Twitter accounts.

>>12411725
>>12411730
The Atom is driven towards the octet structure, and as a consequence of that created molecules, which in turn created life. So now life creates itself until a new layer of existence begins to rule over us.
We live so that the Unknown can manifest Greatness beyond us.

>>12411737
>Like this is still vile, but at least it's like novel.
If you care about yourself, you end up helping others. This is why things like circumcision are so vile. You grow blind to your own actions and your own self because of the damage and trauma you've suffered.
>So it's all about racial purity and standards of the members of a culture?
It's about having good things exist.

>>12411737
>I definitely remember reading reports of people regretting their SRS, but I also know for a fact that there are people who are much happier after undergoing it.
Personally, I think the increase in suicide rate speaks for itself. Sunk Cost fallacy is real, it's hard to say how genuine their stated opinion is. People defend shit all the time when they've spent a long time hyping it up.

>Myself I'm on the edge about getting it because of these very real risks desu so I don't really have a homerun point
Dude, Dudette, whatever, please don't. Medical technology just isn't at the point where they can do anything better than origami your ballsack into a horrible hairball-creating axe wound. You have nothing to gain from it. The only good reason to transition to a woman is if you want to win at sports, but even that doesn't require surgery.

>>12410525
Proddie scum, all this degeneration is a direct result of your heresy

>>12410231
I want to be a pretty, elegant princess

>>12411765
if you genuinely believe this you're retarded

>>12411759
>ersonally, I think the increase in suicide rate speaks for itself.
We need the actual numbers and sources here desu
Especially worth considering difference between surgeons etc.

>>12411759
>You have nothing to gain from it
I gain the ability to actually use my genitals during sex which is like a pretty big part of a person's life

>The only good reason to transition to a woman is if you want to win at sports, but even that doesn't require surgery.
My first sentence of this post >>12411613 is quite a good reason for me.

>>12411765
pls stop
i'm a degenerate tranner but not even I will not stoop low enough to be a protestant

>>12411765
I blame class mongrelization and the egalitarian heresy.

>>12411743
someone was saying it was racism, which i don't think is true.

>>12411782
>I gain the ability to actually use my genitals during sex which is like a pretty big part of a person's life
Prostate is the main genital of a male, rarely used in sex. Penis and scrotum are the external parts, used in coitus with a female.

>>12411782
i get the feeling that you're obsessed with sex

i have a theory that most trannies are very perverted. do you think this is true?

>>12411782
>We need the actual numbers and sources here desu
>Especially worth considering difference between surgeons etc.
It is very difficult to find studies and statistics because of how heavily suppressed "transphobic" research is. there is also a LOT of special pleading and other logical fallacies involved in the defense of transgenderism.

>I gain the ability to actually use my genitals during sex which is like a pretty big part of a person's life
Your genitals only work in their current configuration. What women have is completely different and no amount of surgery can change that You would need literal magic or technology indistinguishable from magic to give you what you desire. At best you will have a large hole lined with scrotum skin with the head of your penis sticking out above it. At worst the interior lining will be made with a part of your colon, like jazz jennings has, and i would be surprised if someone like that had a poor surgeon.

>My first sentence of this post >>12411613 is quite a good reason for me.
We all have to learn to live with the cards we were dealt. I wish i could give you something better than that.

>>12411790
I am overwhelmed by a deep sense of disgust if anyone interacts in a meaningful fashion with my penis during having sex. The idea of using it in coitus(the way you worded the post btw made me laugh in how mildly autistic it seemed) with a "female" is horrifying to me.

Having a vagina would allow me to actually have my partner touch my front bits which is like the baseline normal standard that 99% people take for granted in life.

>>12411808
I have never had sex in my life. The several times women tried to sleep with me during my teenage years I freaked the fuck out and ran away(one time literally)

I do have some kinks and a lot of transwomen I know do too, but I don't know if this is representative of anything because like cismen and ciswomen are also often quite "perverted" to various degrees.

The problem with like transpeople is that people overfocus and pathologize like literally any expression of sexuality and conflate it with the gender dysphoria parts to delegitimize us and paint as some tribe of satanic pervert witches.

>>12411824
>We all have to learn to live with the cards we were dealt. I wish i could give you something better than that.
I'd rather stack the deck and take some E desu, but that's just me.
It's easy to tell people to just suck it up and live with their life problems, but I honestly don't see the justification for it instead of supporting their treatment.

>Your genitals only work in their current configuration. What women have is completely different and no amount of surgery can change that You would need literal magic or technology indistinguishable from magic to give you what you desire. At best you will have a large hole lined with scrotum skin with the head of your penis sticking out above it.
I know that I can't have the same vagina as a natal, xx, ciswoman. But a close approximation might possibly be "good enough". This is about improving people's life not like the absolute state of forms.

>>12411838
>I do have some kinks and a lot of transwomen I know do too,
yeah, like what?

or maybe i should ask, do you frequent /gif/?

>>12411838
>But a close approximation might possibly be "good enough". This is about improving people's life not like the absolute state of forms.
Then i'll risk a ban to show you this.

>>12411843
>yeah, like what?
It's private and unrelated to the discussion. Whatever I say will simply pathologize all other of my posts in the eyes of people who read them and given that nobody else in this thread talked about their sexual kinks it just goes further to paint trans people as exhibitionist deviants. I mean case in point is you yourself assuming that I'm "obsessed with sex" after I mentioned one time that vaginoplasty could potentially help me actually engage in it in a more comfortable way.

>or maybe i should ask, do you frequent /gif/?
No.

>>12411861
Yes, I'm familiar with this one(singular) case. It's one of the reasons why as I said I'm hesitant. I also do not understand why you'd be risking ban for posting a reddit screencap. In contrast
https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/afvzrb/feeling_desirable_after_srs/

But, yes, I admit, there is a lot of post SRS regret posts on asktg, even when I went looking for one positive one to post here I found like 2-3 more that were regretful. Arguably people are far more likely to talk about their negative experience rather than the positive ones, and those that go as far as having srs are most likely about to be done with the whole transitioning business and likely to stop hanging out around trans places unless they have something dramatic to say(and regret + warning is always more dramatic than like happiness)

I think what's important for me is to differentiate between the genuine risks that exist with having vaginoplasty done and the legitimacy of transitioning as a whole.

>>12411838
>I am overwhelmed by a deep sense of disgust if anyone interacts in a meaningful fashion with my penis during having sex.
That indicates a wound in your self-image. Healing is possible.

>>12411885
>I also do not understand why you'd be risking ban for posting a reddit screencap.
It goes against the organized narrative of the sanctity of genital mutilation.

>>12410231
>im a liberal
Well there's your problem. You're a pussy. Who the fuck besides /pol/ and estrogen factories like you is afraid of a chick with a dick?

>>12412031
>/pol/
>afraid of chicks with dicks
We only oppose lgbtqp-i movement. Healing members of our society is not against our interests.