/lit/ - Literature

>>13017767
Never read the book. I can tell you that where Dostoyevsky lacks in whatever your arbitrary definition of “skilled writing” he makes up for in voice, thats all people care for. Stephen King has a distinct voice; it may be extremely simple sentences, but if I read text I could tell you if its King, same with Dostoyevsky. So dont throw shade you fag.

>>13017767
Let's begin a conversation because i have the feeling you're not some arrogant pseud and is trying to know.
I will begin by saying that Martin is a great author, i read all song of ice and fire and all of tolkien books, and Dostoiévski. And for me the main difference between his books and "the classics" is the lack of theme or grasp of consistent archetypes.

>>13017767
>Dostoyevsky and Kafka were mediocre writers
What did you mean by this? You can't criticize literary snobs for not defining bad writing if you're going to call out these two for the exact same thing without defining bad writing.

The first three ASOIAF books are among the best fantasy books ever written. AFFC and ADWD are still good, but Martin starts adding new characters nobody cares about and takes too long for characters to do things. AFFC should have cut out its filler and included Jon being killed by the Night's Watch and Tyrion joining Daenerys. ADWD should have been Stannis battling Winterfell, Cersei blowing up the church, Daenerys finally getting to the seven kingdoms, and Stannis forcing resurrected Jon to become king in the north and moving toward King's Landing to duke things out with Cersei and Daenerys.

Sunset

>Dost and Kafka were mediocre
at first I thought you wanted an actual discussion, but that line outed the post as 4/10 bait, barely good enough to be responded to without 下げ

>>13017767
too many povs, martin doesn't know what the fuck he's doing anymore.

>>13017767
Reason for reading is pleasure and betterment. If you can somehow get both, that's great. Poetry and classics offer this the most, especially if they can make your life around you better. For Martin, I caught up with the show and I stopped reading after book IV because it derailed. I don't know what much to ask a few questions. What lessons can you learn from Martin? How can you make the claims your making if Dostoevsky and Kafka are your main bids? Have you read Proust, Nabokov, Shakespeare, Dante, Joyce, Donne...

Somewhat off topic but are people who only call the classics good literature equivalent to the people who say everything after classical music is garbage?

>>13017941
yes, but luckily most of /lit/ recognizes that there's plenty of good modern literature, like HoL, IJ, etc

>>13017767
After you start in on the fourth book you realize GRRM really had no plans for an actual story; he just wanted to spend his time subverting expectations and having awful things happen to his characters just to have them happen.

>>13017894
found

>>13017966
Which is a perfectly respectable endeavor

OP here, so my line about Dostoyevsky and Kafka triggered a lot of people. That's good, I won't start a discussion about it here, but just compare one page of Proust or Musil to one page of Kafka and Dostoyevsky and you will soon understand what good writing is.

Of course, I'm not saying Kafka and Dostoyevsky wrote bad books, their works are excellent, they just didn't know how to write.

>>13018111
>their works were excellent, the just didn't know how to write
>I won't start a discussion about it here, the place I brought it up in the first place
I'll give you this, you know how to get those (You)'s.

>>13017767
1) Martín is overrated as a writer
2) the themes are typical nihilist "there are no heroes the knights are all incestuous douchebags like in REAL HISTORY REAL WE DECIDE WHAT REALLY HAPPENED BACK THEN" liberal drivel.
3) the fatass was drowned in money and still won't even finish it Because now he has the reputation of a """""""genius"""""" so he fears that If he writes something that disappoints his fans he'll not be considered genius anymore so his answer to this """"""pressure"""""" is writing fuck all. Typical gamma male response. He'll probably get it written by neil gayman they have been talking during american God's production.
4) It is simply not that good and the fans are obnoxious, it is dishearting to read poor brainlets coming here posting as If GRRM could hold a candle to a real modern writer like John C Wright.

>>13018111
Ask me how I can tell you've never finished a book by Proust, Musil or Dostoyevsky and only seek an excuse not to feel so guilty about your guilty pleasures.

>No Tolkienfags triggered.
So far, so good. Hopefully this means they're learning.

>>13017767
op you deserve much respect for this
>Dostoyevsky and Kafka were mediocre writers as well
for it is an obvious truth, yet a contrarian opinion.
However, both Dosto and kafka were ahead of their time, or at least they intitiated something that later became huge. I don't think it's possible to say the same about Martin. His books are pretty much entertaining (I can't stand the Bran chapters though). You could even say that his cheap method using cliffhangers all the time and pointless chapters here and there was also used by Dostoevsky. But still, Martin doesn't have something deeply personal that would make him stand out of the numerous genre writers - he's still an industrial writer like these girls who write romance.
Perhaps it can be said that he's a very good genre writer, but he will probably remain a genre writer, contrary to those who managed to add something unique to their novels, or at least something that was unique back then and that later became some kind of signature trait.

>>13017767
it's a soap opera in a fantasy setting.
the story isn't and will never be a classic of literature (like Lord of the Rings) because it has no message it's trying to convey.
The whole purpose of the story is, like soap operas, meant to keep you watching (via emotional ups and downs) and the money flowing into HBO's and Martin's pockets

>I could care less

>>13017767
I’ve read a Song of Ice and Fire, though I haven’t watched any of the show and from what I’ve heard the show is ahead of the books now. I’ve also read A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms.
In my opinion, Martin’s strength is character development, but the plot seems to support this by forcing the characters to interact rather than possessing a meaningful or deep message of its own. The throne is basically just a mcguffin for characters to chase while they scramble around the world and run into one another, and most of them with motives to take the throne don’t really have plans on what to do once they become rulers. This results in a soap opera-esque setup where any ending becomes lackluster (since the real goal of the books isn’t necessarily for a character to take the throne or to win definitively, it’s just a means to get characters to interact with one another), so the story must go on until somebody decides to kill it off after an unreasonable amount of time or tries to shoehorn in a message at the end.