/lit/ - Literature

apologies for screwing up the thread title guys

>>13158695
Original OP here, thanks for keeping it going! Very happy to see this thread is catching on.

Great author, New Seeds especially I really loved. Wondering what everybody thinks of his young nurse fling though and him breaking his vows.

>>13158718

no problem sorry if I usurped your role in making it, saw the old one hit the bump limit and wanted to get a cross-linked new one while it was still active. thanks for making it to begin with.

What are /cath/'s thoughts on the movie The Last Temptation of Christ?

>>13158718
God bless your soul, these threads really came in at the right moment for me I guess anon

>>13158732
It's actually not a bad movie, I myself didn't find it blasphemous. Plus, even the Vatican recommends it

>>13158735
No, I know how Molinism works, I'm taking issue with "God knows what his free creatures would choose under hypothetical circumstances", presumably based on their nature, again, where does this nature come from?

>>13158695
One of the most powerful dreams I can remember is me and a bunch of other people being killed by God. As the dream faded out I heard this voice say "Remember..." (i realize this was somewhat similar to the lion king when simba talks to his father) but it was an insane feeling, i woke up terrified.

>>13158729
No need to apologise mate, it's certainly not about me, but about having this discussion space.

I'd like to hear anon's thoughts on vocation. I work in the music industry, and though I wouldn't say anything I do is sinful it's certainly not helping make the world a better place. I work with banal Pop musicians, and I'm good at it. I don't think God would give you skills you were meant to deny, but at the same time I feel like it's hard to channel them properly in the modern world. Maybe a lot of it also has to do with my attachment to a certain material standard of living.
Any other anons struggling to balance their material life with a pious path? How do you channel your vocation, skills and interests in a proper way?

I think 4chan is evil guys :(

We have to leave :(

>>13158766
Plenty of evil people here, but it is difficult to say that any thing, without a will, is itself evil.

>>13158766
No. Though we too are sinners, it is good for us to try to shine a light in this place.

>>13158774
It's just bad habit for me... wastes time, feels like I come here to boost my own sense of being clever or interesting. The culture of mean indifference and genuine cruelty is painful and frustrating and discouraging.

I guess everyone has their own experience though.

If I can do something good let me say that I was living a very sad life enslaved by sin and filled with self doubt and self loathing. And I moved away from home and started going to a church, and I didn't grow up with a church, and I cannot believe how wonderful it has been.

I cannot imagine why anyone would not want to go to church. In the midst of this insane world there are children and young people and old folks of all sorts who come together to eat Christ and sing praises to God. It is basically miraculous that this still carries on.

For anons who are lost and confused, hiding from God and trying to find faith alone in books, please try going to a church. You have to keep showing up over and over. You will feel nervous and out of place. Just keep going. Go to everything you are invited to. Stand around awkwardly with a nametag. Sit in the back pew. Keep doing it.

It will not be long before it all starts feeling warm and welcoming, and it starts to be beautiful and not intimidating. And it could very well change everything about your life you could not change by yourself.

>>13158840
You are not alone in your feeling. You have expressed many of my own thoughts, better than I might have.

>Herman the Recluse (Latin: Hermannus Heremitus) was, according to legend, a thirteenth century Benedictine monk best known as the supposed author of the Codex Gigas, or Devil's Bible.

>The legend states that, as a resident of the Benedictine Monastery of Podlazice, Herman the Recluse was condemned to be walled up alive and starved to death. However, in a plea for his life, he convinced the Abbot to let him live if he could create a book that encapsulated all earthly knowledge in one night. Herman wrote until midnight, upon which he realized he could not finish his masterpiece and sold his soul to a Tebel-El (Cornish word for 'Devil') in exchange for the ability to finish the Codex Gigas.

I sometimes think that medieval monasteries were probably more peculiar than my reading would suggest. Most monks seem like sane men of letters and talk of their inner life and of God at length, but does anyone know of any writings that talk of the odd fellows that inhabited these places? Surely there were some strange scenes.

only interested in thomas merton because he was a monk and i want live as a hermit somewhere in a cabin in the woods

i am an atheist.

>>13158873
He was basically an atheist too

>>13158873

Thomas Merton was anything but a hermit. In fact he was extremely passionate about Catholic Social Teaching. For Merton, contemplation without action was fruitless. I think someone like Emerson or the quietists are more up your alley, Christ said go and make disciples of all nations, not sit in a cabin in the woods navel gazing.

At least that's how I see things.

>>13158873
The desire to flee the world is caused by the desire to come to God. Go where you are called. He will find you there. He would find you even now, but you insist you are not ready. Go to the woods. Do not be afraid.

>>13158883
like, no

>"having received his death blow, he dipped his finger in his blood...having not paper on which to write, leaned over, and wrote the Credo on the ground."

St. Peter of Verona is pretty great.

>>13158898
>that saints name? albert einstein

>>13158883

completely wrong, read his preface in The Way of Chuang Tzu and you'll see Merton was interested in learning about the East in depth as the Scholastics did with Averroes etc. previously

>>13158873
how many times do you think they've been drugged and/or raped?

>>13158954
Stop being so vulgar :(
Rape is not funny.

>>13158840

>I cannot imagine why anyone would not want to go to church. In the midst of this insane world there are children and young people and old folks of all sorts who come together to eat Christ and sing praises to God. It is basically miraculous that this still carries on.

This was one of the things that kept me at mass after I left home (I was raised Catholic). I would attend these beautiful solemn Trad masses through college. They were the only time each week I would sit quietly and be with people who weren't college students; the only time I would be with people who didn't clamor at me with their self-interest and against whom my own sinfulness had no claim. The very old, the very young--men only in their mid-twenties with two kids, women pregnant for the sixth time. And the priest presiding, who had renounced the warmth of familial life for the fiercer flame of celibacy. I stopped receiving for several years because I was conscious of my mortal sin, but I could not leave off attending mass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stylite

imagine how boring this would be

>>13158966
>renounced the warmth of familial life for the fiercer flame of celibacy.

It breaks my heart that God asks some of us to give that up, there seems no greater joy than to be a father of little children in the late evening when they have settled down and become sweet and loving without knowing it or meaning to.

I have to settle that feeling in my heart, because the purpose of human life is not happiness or closeness of bond, though I feel so much desire for these things.

>>13158977
If anything, it attests to how much satisfaction there is to be found in God. A life that be awful and uninteresting in just about any other context becomes something that people actively pursued once God was added to the equation.

>>13158695

Very important reply from the last one: >>13159478

Any thoughts on St. Therese of Avila’s ‘The Interior Castle’? Currently reading through St. Francis de Sale’s ‘Introduction to the Devout Life’ and it’s great. There is a lot of work to do on my end.
>>13158732
Looking back on it, I think it’s pretty blasphemous and I don’t really like how Christ was presented. But desu, it was one of the stepping stones that led me back to the Church so I don’t know what to really think of it.

>>13158859
I'm very interested in this kind of thing as well. The best I've found seems to be in historical novels and doubtfully documented though. Despite its rather tenuous relationship to historical truth I definitely recommend that you read the work Napoleon Peyrat, you'll have a great time.

>>13159513
I've never personally read any of St. Teresa's works, but several very holy priests that I've known all really loved her writings, so I'll recommend the Interior Castle.

>>13158883

>>13160088
Thanks, but his writing doesn't look like it's been translated and I do not speak French.

A bump for the Lord

For anyone who wants a good introduction to St. Thomas Aquinas' philosophy and theology, I highly recommend pic related. It's an excellent abridgement of the Summa, and provides good commentary to make it understandable.

This chart is flying around some other threads. What does /cath/ think of it?

Who here becoming a priest or monk?

>>13162746
I can't make heads or tails of it.

>>13162765
I pray that I might become a Dominican friar, but first I have to finish my contract with the military.

We don't have enough Catholic books in this thread. Post your Catholic literature.

>>13162850
Cool stack.
I'm currently reading San Juan de la Cruz and Santa Teresa de Jesús. They're beautiful writers, and to any Spanish speakers recommendable even if only for the beauty of their language alone.

>>13162839
Good luck, friend.

Has anyone read the Secret of the Rosary?

>>13163386
I took 5 years of high school Spanish. Do you think I'd be able to read either in their original? if not, are there any simpler Spanish speaking saints?

>>13163620
I have not, but I've read some of St. Louis de Montfort's other works. He has a very straightforward and understandable, yet deeply profound. He's great to read when it comes to Marian devotion.

>>13163506
Thank you friend.

>>13162850
Nice Esolen translation

>>13162839
what branch/mos/nation if not american?
t. 11b, thought about doing the same

>>13162839
Good luck!

>>13164232
Sup dude. I'm USMC. Don't wanna divulge too much personal information other than that I'm in comm. I went to a Dominican college before the military and really loved them, so God willing they'll accept me in a few years. The religious life is a great calling, you should totally go for it if that is what God wills for you.

>>13158695
is religion, at its essence, escapism and world-denial?

>>13164580
Rah. Comm here too

>>13158718

Most of the time I don't feel particularly drawn to Christian ethics, or to living life in a Christian way, nor am I particularly strongly convinced of the truth of revelation. However I find theology, apologetics and Church history fascinating, and it's most of what I read. Am I running on empty here? What are some good books or authors who display fascination for Christianity from a "pagan" (in the old sense of the word, not that LARPing bullshit) perspective?

>>13164598
Yut yut.

>>13163901
Thanks. I actually have yet to read it, just because I've read the Inferno before, and I own way too many books that I haven't read yet. One day. How did you like Lord of the World?

>>>/lit/thread/S13160915#p13163711

>Why do you think you're cleverer and closer to the truth than the very people who gave these words to you? Jesus says, let us eat the passover, and then says "take this bread, it is my body, given for you. I am the bread of life," and "this cup is the new covenant," which cannot be taken in any other way than in referencing the many covenants God made with the Israelites, which always accompanied a sacrifice and the promise of a kingdom, just as Jesus here says "so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom." You could not make a more direct allusion to Jesus as a passover sacrifice.

You haven't answered my question. Jesus says that he wants to eat with them in Luke 22:11 and 22:15, does that mean he's sacrificing himself for himself as well? Inasmuch as you're willing to conflate the Last Supper with Atonement, of course, answer the question. You've also casually dropped your previous weaselly quoting and mock charge therewith and are now making a deduction instead. Squirming, writhing, creeping, like all Catholics do. Your argument changing like the maggot into the fly. Your chutzpah totally eclipsing the fact that it's by all means a terrible deduction at that. This is by design.

>>13165327
Haven’t read it yet since I just bought it very recently. However, I read some of Benson’s ‘Come Rack! Come Rope!’ and I was not disappointed.

bamp

>>13165851

yes, the sacrifice of the pascal lamb is a perpetual sacrifice that continues every time the priest assumes the person of Christ in the mass

>>13167570

That is not my question.

>>13167712
It isn't settled doctrine as far as I know, but it's addressed in the Summa, III Q. 81

>>13162850
English (or German) title of the Polish one?

>>13167712

what's your question in plain english son? Jesus both offered and sacrificed himself on the cross in order to install the new covenant and extend opportunity to assume "sonship" (just as Jesus was the perfect son of the father while being perfectly man) under God to all peoples, not just the jews. that sacrifice is represented in a transubstantial sense every time the mass is offered (note the key word offered btw).

>>13168203

re-presented, not represented, my bad.

>>13168203
>>13165851
>Jesus says that he wants to eat with them in Luke 22:11 and 22:15, does that mean he's sacrificing himself for himself as well?

>>13168082
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diary:_Divine_Mercy_in_My_Soul

>>13168224
>Luke 22:8-20 (Knox)
>"and Jesus sent Peter and John on an errand; Go and make ready for us, he said, to eat the paschal meal. When they asked him, Where wouldst thou have us make ready? he said to them, Just as you are entering the city, you will be met by a man carrying a jar of water; follow him into the house to which he is going; and there you will say to the owner of the house, The master sends word, Where is the room in which I am to eat the paschal meal with my disciples? And he will shew you a large upper room, furnished; it is there that you are to make ready. So they went, and found all as he had told them, and so made ready for the paschal meal. And when the time came, he sat down with his twelve disciples. And he said to them, I have longed and longed to share this paschal meal with you before my passion; I tell you, I shall not eat it again, till it finds its fulfilment in the kingdom of God. And he took a cup, and blessed it, and said, Take this and share it among you; I tell you, I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine again, till the kingdom of God has come. Then he took bread, and blessed and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, This is my body, given for you; do this for a commemoration of me. And so with the cup, when supper was ended, This cup, he said, is the new testament, in my blood which is to be shed for you."

Since you are evidentially a sola scripture protestant, I'll first ask, where does this passage say that Jesus *ate* with the disciples? He ate as in shared the meal with them, but where does it say that he *consumed*, as the disciples did?

That's not the main point however at all. In some sense, since Jesus was both fully God and fully man, he did in fact sacrifice himself for himself, in that he (as God) was the only perfect sacrifice able to atone for the sin of Adam (as man). Thus, the God-Man Jesus (Son of God and Son of Man) reconciled that which was man with that which was God, as he was (and is) both. So to answer your question bluntly, yes he did. Any other Catholic feel free to chime in here.

>>13168274
Thanks lad. Have you read it yet?

>>13168332
>My argument has become so powerful that I can actually make Catholics invoke Dialectic.

The phrasing is standard enough to assume he eats as well, nothing to indicate otherwise. The initial "make ready for us, he said, to eat" and the "I shall not eat it again" is pretty clear. My argument has also become so powerful that I can actually make Catholics tell the truth, that they think Jesus is a sinner. Awkward. Also, Protestants are Atonement maniacs first and foremost. At least get Doctrine right.

>>13168420
>The phrasing is standard enough to assume he eats as well
I don't think the assumption is justified because I can go out to eat dinner with friends while not actually eating any food.

>>13168420
You should start your own church.

>>13168345
I read much of it in English, but have since decided that I might as well finish it in my native language. It's a very beautiful book. St. Faustyna's intense love for God is remarkable.

>>13168488

You know, an underrated meaning of Plato's cave, perhaps hidden in plain sight by being so crude, is that institution itself is not the sublime balance of structure and light towards salvation and such but the imitation of both towards their mutual desecration. The shadows are cast by fire, not by the sun.

>>13168420

you do realize Catholicism is a religion of "both", not either/or right? Jesus is both perfectly God and perfectly man (in all things except sin), that's the fundamental doctrine of the incarnation and has been a cornerstone of the faith since the Fathers. sounds like mormonism/JW or some other blatant heresy is more up your alley.

Didn't Merton sleep with a girl while he was a monk? I contemplate monastic like every day. I believe the Holy Spirit has been calling me to it. I like the benedictines.

Waddap fellow Catholic nibbas
Any other good novels in the setting of the early Church? Quo Vadis was excellent

>>13168736

Yes? My initial point in the thread I linked is that Original Sin and Atonement are perversely inferred from each other, despite neither being in either Testament. This being exemplary of Pauline abomination. I agree that Jesus is indeed fully God and fully Man, in no need for Doctrinal nonsense exempting him from sin since Man in general does not inherit it.

why do Catholics worship both a Jew and a god that forced Ezekiel to eat literal poop bread?

Is it sinful to enjoy Bach?

>>13158695
how do the "catholics" on /lit/ reconcile their like for people like merton with their racism

>>13168736
>>13168830

My entertaining of the Luke passage was to show how allusion at either of them actually make both of them more and more absurd. Never mind the Gospels in general explicitly contradicting both, "I pray not for the world" and so on and so forth.

>>13168830
Just curious, but what's your take on Christ's baptism?

>>13168873
You have no reason to assume people are racist and pretending to be Catholic. You could actually try talking to people and find out what they believe.

>>13168857
I worship Jesus because I think he's God and Ezekiel didn't eat literal poop bread. He lived in a desert where there wasn't a lot fuel for fires, and so they would use manure to sustain fires. The fire doesn't come into contact with the bread because that's not how bread is baked.

>>13168873
they just replace their racism with vehement homophobia

>>13168736
>>13168830
>>13168905

ALSO, I can't help but notice that the language of Original Sin and Atonement is extremely disturbing. The "Newtonian" aspect of bog-standard Materialism, cause and effect and such, is suspect enough, but there's also a putrid stench of morbid sexuality: Freudian daddy nightmares, prostitution, rape, etc. Far removed even from Satanism, never mind what Jesus says.

>>13168941
God told him to cook bread over human shit, while lying in the mud for over a year. It's clearly to humiliate Ezekiel. It's sick.

>>13168951
I disagree

>>13168951
You realize that manure has been used as a fertilizer/fuel since forever, right?

>>13168737
Merton once developed feelings for a nurse while he was recovering from surgery. There is nothing to make us believe he ever broke his vow of chastity for her though.

>>13166041
You'll really like Lord of the World then. Like many good dystopia novels, it is remarkable for how prescient it is.

>>13168915

A good example of immanent consecration of Man during life, not shuffling Cosmic paperwork during death.

Anyone know some good sci-fi/fantasy?

>>13168946
Why do you think people are vehemently afraid of gay people?

>>13169041
You know what I mean idiot

It's been funny to watch so many people argue about Guénon and let yourselves get into so many arguments about him without really understanding him. Guénon's works are largely just an indirect commentary on the works of Ibn Arabi and Adi Shankara, in a similar way to how Evola is largely just an indirect commentary on and a response to Guénon. You'll never fully understand what exactly Guénon means and why he writes all the stuff that he does unless you read at least few thousand pages of writing from both of these thinkers. It seems like the the vast majority of people who read Guénon don't so this which IMO is why so many people seem to become befuddled or angry after reading Guénon's writings and why there are so many ad hominem arguments thrown at him.

I laugh every time I see people write stuff like "w-well uh he never fully explained intellectual intuition" or "he never solidly proved his ideas using logic according to my degenerated and emasculated empiricism"; that's besides the point!, Guénon was not writing to convince people who didn't agree with him, he couldn't care less about those people. His writing is aimed at fellow autodidacts who already read a huge amount of esoteric/metaphysics and who will actually read much the eastern thinkers he references. When you read Ibn Arabi and Shankara they literally take you by the hand and walk you through all the stages of understanding of all the stuff that Guénon explains and mentions in passing; it immediately becomes apparent once you read enough of them why exactly Guénon wrote what he did, many of the ideas that people consider to be his unique idea actually already appear in the works of these two thinkers where they are explained in even more depth than Guénon's treatment of them. I see many people complain or have criticisms of Guénon that he never demonstrates this eastern 'divine intellect' etc or 'metaphysical realization', that's because it's only something that very bright and motivated people can understand if they have the willpower and power of comprehension required to read through large amounts of both Ibn Arabi and Shankara; two sages who evade comprehension by the intellectually-dogmatic and dull-minded!

>>13169051
Guénon's initial evaluation of Buddhism was plagued by an astonishing lack of understanding. This evaluation was suppressed in the English edition of Orient et Occident(Paris, 1924); Guénon later modified it in part, by making some concessions to a "Brahmanic" version of Buddhism, which is truly a Buddhism evirated of the specific and valid elements it possessed at its inception. These specific elements concerned an autonomous way of realization. In this realization, the action of a qualified individual who strives to attain the Unconditioned, even by means of violent efforts is the necessary counterpart of the descent of a force from above, which does not need "initiatory bureaucracies." What Guénon had to say in an unfortunate essay concerning "The Need for a Traditional Exotericism," must also be rejected, since it offers dangerous incentives and alibis to a reactionary and petty-bourgeois conformism. The pedantic representatives of Guénonian scholasticism should rather strive to reach a deeper understanding of the true meaning of the Way of the Left Hand, which is not any less traditional than the Way of Right Hand, and which has the advantage of emphasizing the transcendent dimension proper of every truly initiatory realization and aspiration.

>>13169046
I don't know what you mean. In any other context a phobia means an irrational fear. What do you mean by it?

>>13169054
What I mean is that you're an annoying faggot, don't reply to me ever again with this childish shit.

>>13169060
Well you're the one that came in here accusing everybody of being homophobic. Don't you even know what you mean by that?

>>13169076
You know what I mean by that, and I know what I meant by that. I'm not playing your smug game. Keep up the facade if you will, but I refuse to take any part in it. Last (You) from me.

>>13169084
For somebody who knows what they're talking about you sure are having a hard time answering a very simple and direct question. When talking to other people I like to be clear about the things I say so there aren't any dumb misunderstandings. That's the only way a true understanding between two people can happen, but when you refuse to define your words you're refusing to be clear. Maybe you don't actually want to come to an understanding, that would certainty explain your attitude.

>>13169102
I'm afraid I was dishonest when I said my previous post would be the last (You), but the reason I do not wish to converse with you further is because I believe you to be dishonest and deceptive; a scoundrel.
I see no good reason to lower myself for your entertainment. I am not here for some spectacle of a debate, or for you to practice your sophistic tricks. Have a good day.

>>13169120
All I did was ask you what you meant by the word homophobia. I haven't split any hairs or tried to trick you and I haven't even had the opportunity. Do you think Plato was being a sophist when had Socrates asking people what they meant? It's a very weird thing to consider that an attack.

>>13169028
Gene Wolf.

>>13169051
Why are there so many posts about Guenon lately?

>>13169502
Whitehead/Deleuze/Bukowski poster found another meme.

>>13168966
Literally defending eating food cooked on human shit. No wonder you people worship jews.

>>13168830

good to know your views are so doctrinally unfounded you basically founded your own sect. lmao anti Cath posters everyone

has a verse of scripture ever moved you to tears?

>>13170202
"Then he began to curse and to swear that he knew not the man. And immediately the cock crew.

And Peter remembered the word of Jesus which he had said: Before the cock crow, thou wilt deny me thrice. And going forth, he wept bitterly."

>>13170202
"And the king was much moved, and went up to the chamber over the gate, and wept: and as he went, thus he said, O my son Absalom, my son, my son Absalom! would God I had died for thee, O Absalom, my son, my son!"

David's lament for his son, even though Absalom rebelled and made war on him, so beautifully shows how God feels about us. We sin against him, and in response God would rather die for us.

>>13170202
Mark 9:24 always gets to me even though it's a pretty short verse.
"And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief."

Where do you lads reckon is the center of Catholic monasticism? The main thing that I admire about Eastern Christianity is that they really seem to have a strong monastic structure. Everyone in the East has a "spiritual center" through monasteries. Maybe it is just xenophilia, but there really doesn't seem like there is anywhere in western Christianity like Valaam or Mt. Athos or St. Catherines's of Sinai.

I know that the purpose of monasticism isn't to obtain some secret gnosis, but certainly spiritual knowledge is a fruit by which ye shall know them. There seems to be relatively little fruit coming from the monastic trees of the modern west. I really do not want to dedicate my life to live in a place that spiritually stagnant. I live in America and there are some Monasteries near me that practice a lot of anti-traditional spirituality like centering prayer that leaves a lot to be desired, especially in the face of the Hesychastic practices I've learned about in the east. Tell me if I'm wrong.

bump

>>13170646
There is no absolute equivalent of Mt. Athos. I think there's a few reasons. For one, Catholicism is far more wide spread than Orthodoxy. In the past five hundred years it has exploded forth from Europe to Africa, Europe, Asia, and the Americas in a way that Orthodoxy simply has not. The world of Orthodoxy has been small. Thus it is easier to focus around a single cluster of monasteries. A Catholic in Japan in or Argentina is simply not going to be able to be as deeply connected with some monasteries in France or Italy or wherever.

The other reason is that religious life in the West has diversified to a far greater degree in the East. You have monastics, mendicants, canons regular, clerks regular, and a few others. What are you gonna center on without needlessly neglecting the wealth of different orders? This vibrancy of religious life is something that I frankly think is lacking in the East.

Third, there are or have been some what you could consider major spiritual centers. Cluny back in the day. Monte Cassino is still immensely important.The Grande Chartreuse also comes to mind. These things are also more localized, no doubt partly due to the aforementioned wide spread of the faith. For example, in Poland the monastery of Jasna Góra is hugely important, and is a place that Poles make pilgrimage to even nowadays.

As for fruit from monasticism, I would disagree strongly. The achievements of monks are not as strongly highlighted in Catholicism, because there are many types of religious, so the observation of their activities tends to be more spread out. In recent centuries, St. Therese of Liseux and St. Maria Faustyna are two cloistered women that have been a great blessing to the Church. The Cistercian martyrs of Algeria have given their lives to witness to God. The Carthusians and Trappists, by their enormous commitment to silence, live in devotion to God in a way that is truly remarkable. Perhaps the monasteries near you are spiritually weak, but that is no reason to cast out all of Western monasticism. Hesychasm is indeed a beautiful and unique spiritual tradition, but it is not somehow this amazingly special thing. It has an allure to Western Christians at times because it is foreign, but the idea of retiring inward from one's senses to contemplate God is not an idea or practice exclusive to the East.

Out of curiosity, are you the anon I was talking to a few threads ago that's from Massachusetts?

>>13171718
I wanted to add to this that the practice of clerical celibacy in the Latin Church has something to do with this. The celibate who is devoted to God is your parish priest in the West. You do not need to travel or go looking to a monastery to meet someone like that. This adds to the fact that the West simply does not focus as exclusively on monasticism, because it is not the overwhelming majority of what there is to find when it comes to strong examples of renunciation for God.

Friends, I'll be on a retreat at a monastery for the next few days. Tell me if there's any intention you'd like me to keep in my prayers during that time.

>>13169826

I don't really care but, for your information, it's hardly an original idea.

>https://peteenns.com/5-old-testament-reasons-original-sin-doesnt-work/
>https://www.gospeltruth.net/OS100bibleverses.htm

>>13171718
there really is no need for diversity of different orders for monasticism t. orthodox

I'm having trouble understanding Sempiternus Rex Christus; is Pope Pius XII calling kenosis a heresy?
>29. There is another enemy of the faith of Chalcedon, widely diffused outside the fold of the Catholic religion. This is an opinion for which a rashly and falsely understood sentence of St. Paul's Epistle to the Philippians (ii, 7), supplies a basis and a shape. This is called the kenotic doctrine, and according to it, they imagine that the divinity was taken away from the Word in Christ. It is a wicked invention, equally to be condemned with the Docetism opposed to it. It reduces the whole mystery of the Incarnation and Redemption to empty the bloodless imaginations. 'With the entire and perfect nature of man'--thus grandly St. Leo the Great--'He Who was true God was born, complete in his own nature, complete in ours' (Ep. xxviii, 3. PL. Liv, 763. Cf. Serm. xxiii, 2. PL. lvi, 201).
http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pi12sr.htm

Are gays expected to turn themselves straight?

>>13172573
No.

>>13172573
No, just chaste.

Besides Thomas are there any more comfy monks I should read my brothers?

>>13171764
That's very kind of you anon. I know it sounds a bit silly, but I'd ask you to keep Venezuela and Venezuelans in your prayers. There's a lot of them that have migrated to my country and it's such an overwhelming and heartbreaking situation.

>>13173130
If only the people had access to modern economic textbooks.

>>13172166
the same can be said for "national" churches

>>13173157
That's a radical simplification of what happened there, but let's not derail the thread.

I've just begun reading The Everlasting Man, what are /cath/'s thoughts on the book and Chesterton in general?

>>13173165
I don't think it's an oversimplification at all. The Venezuelan government did some very stupid things and the consequences were entirely predictable. Nobody takes over private industries like they did because it discourages investment, because who would want to invest their personal savings in a country that will literally just take your stuff on a whim? That alone will tank your economy but that isn't even the worst. They're 19th century socialists who never heard of the calculation problem so they think the centralized distribution of scarce resources would be anything but widely inefficient.

>>13173199
I agree with you completely, but in your original post you said "the people," which is a very different thing to say.

>>13173210
I said it because I mean it. Chavez was a popular government and had the will of the people. He was applauded by people who didn't know any better.

Should I read Confessions before City of God?

>>13173217
Yeah, I suppose you're right actually, I'm being sentimental.

>>13173130
Are you Peruvian?

>>13162765
I intend to become a priest. A member of the secular clergy, though. Still, I am interested also in the Premonstratensians or maybe the Benedictines. A Benedictine priory (Notre Dame Priory), Tasmania.

I have issues with continence, however, and if I can’t get it under control, then I don’t think God is calling me to the priesthood and I’ll pursue holiness in another way.

>>13173608
just wear a diaper lmao

>>13172601
>>13172582
If they didn't fully understand/necessarily be convinced thst homosexuality is wrong, but obeyed God's will anyway, would that still be sinful?

>>13173826
According to the Church there isn't anything wrong with being a homosexual, all it means is that you're inclined to a particular type of sin. Everyone is inclined toward sin and everyone has their preferences of what sins they would like to commit but we're all asked to abstain. Do your honest best and you'll be okay.

>>13171764
I've had a terrible period, suffered a great betrayal from a deep lifelong trustee. Pray for me please.

>>13172573
Not anymore than any other sinners. It's sad though that they let it consume them to such an extent.

>>13173130
That's not silly at all anon. I will pray for Venezuela.

>>13173884
You likewise shall be in my prayers.

I still have a few hours before I leave if anyone else has any intentions they'd like me to pray for.

>>13172166
You're correct. Strictly speaking, it is not needed. Nevertheless, the wide variety of religious vocations that we have are a great gift to the Church. It's about a diversity of orders (especially since some, like the Benedictines, aren't even really what one would truly consider an "order") but the different callings themselves, as we could have various orders that are all strictly monastic.

>>13173165
I read the book about eight years ago. It's very good, though you should keep in mind as you read it that Chesterton is specifically responding to certain arguments that Orson Welles made against Christianity. I'll let you get to its conclusions, as Chesterton can explain it all far more artfully than I can.

Aside from that book itself, he's a very good writer. I highly recommend reading some of his fiction, like the Ball and the Cross, or his Father Brown stories if you want something shorter. He's got excellent prose, and is great at filling his fiction with Catholic thought in a way that a lot of more recent literature would fail to do without being cringy.

Thought on this guy? Do you think If he had been more successful in his aims, would it have stopped the Protestant Reformation from ever happening due to humanism and the Medici's being driven out from the church?

>>13168862
no

read Flannery O'Connor

bump

More like Thomas 91:

>They said to him, "Tell us who you are so that we may believe in you."
>He said to them, "You read the face of the sky and of the earth, but you have not recognized the one who is before you, and you do not know how to read this moment."

>>13173608
Based. You'll be able to. I have faith in you.

I'm not a Catholic but I wanted to say that I've really enjoyed these threads and the people who post in them. Thanks, /cath/

>>13168736

I understand that this is a Catholic thread, and I will try to remain as civil as possible, but please do not willfully (or inadvertently) misrepresent Mormonism. Call it a heresy, fine. From the traditional Catholic perspective, many things are heresies.

However . . .

Like the Unitarians, Mormons reject the idea of the trinity, but we maintain that Christ is fully divine and fully human. Fully divine and fully human—but not God Himself. In many ways, though, Christ *represents* (or represented) the Father (i.e., perfectly embodies the Father's will) and can, in that sense, be referred to as the Father. Christ is the divine Savior who reconciles us to the Father, and not God in human form who reconciles us to Himself.

We consider the trinitarian concept to be convoluted, nebulous, and unbiblical.

No combativeness intended. Just wish that interfaith dialogue and respect was a thing, and that people wouldn't always take a crap on Mormonism for being fraudulent, strange, etc.

>>13172109

>he bases all his beliefs only on Sacred Scripture, not also Sacred Tradition

there's your problem son. the classic heresy trap.

>>13175345

>gnostic scriptures

no

>>13172166

different orders have different charisms, so yes, there is a need and a reason many different orders were founded. reminder there's also things like opus dei , legion of Mary, KOC, etc. variety in religious life in the Church is much greater than the orthodox.

>>13175369
It is good to know the they have been positive for others. Thanks be to God

Does god in some way present ways for people to find faith in their life? I'm curious, I've got no faith in Christianity (as in believing it), but wouldn't God want me to have faith? If so why haven't I or many others had events that lead us to believe (of our own free will)?
Like I'm aware I could easily read a bunch of Aquinas w/e, but even that wouldn't make me believe
Sorry if I'm rambling a bit, I'm mildly intoxicated

>>13176253
There are proofs for God's existence, in a generic theistic sense. By proof I mean something which a rational person must accept as true. For Christianity there is no proof but there are plenty of reasons to believe it's true, and I think this is by design. In order to truly love something you have to have the ability to reject it, so if God gave us proof of Christianity we couldn't truly love it and by extension, we couldn't love Him.

Reading Dark Night of the Soul by St. John of the Cross (english trans.). I want to have faith (in anything really) and hoping this will help.

>>13176253
Reading is a fine means of finding faith. Most intellectuals just refuse to consider religious or metaphysical claims or simply lack the tools and humility it takes to discover them. Faith is found on the far side of reason, beyond the horizon. It's suprarational and not subrational. It's a bit like becoming friends with someone over time, knowing them better, and finally deciding to trust them.

bros, how do we reunite the catholic and orthodox churches?

>>13176364
I found Kierkegaard pretty helpful when I wanted to have faith but couldn't bring myself to make the leap.

>>13176464
>>13176292
I just feel I ought to find some good impetus to believe eventually, otherwise I'll burn in hell and that doesn't seem very fair

>>13176625
All you have to do is seek the truth. I mean honestly seek the truth.

>>13176635
Many do that and find themselves elsewhere. Daoism, Islam, Individualism, this ambition, that goal, etc. Do they all burn?

>>13173898
Pray that my situation improves.

>>13176641
I'm not sure those people are honestly seeking the truth. If I look at the problem of 2+2, I might be satisfied with an answer of 3 because that number comforts me, but in refusing to check my work I'll never get to the actual answer of 4. The Catholic Church is true so if people check their work they'll eventually find their way in.

>>13176660
I feel inclined to disagree. Many devote their lives to their faiths and quest for the truth. Many do not end up Catholic. To state that they're not really trying just gives fallacious vibes.

>>13176674
I know some Scientologists who are extremely confident in their religion but that in itself doesn't give any validity to their belief. It comes down to what reasons they have to believe the things they do and I think if you examine them, you'll find them lacking. A Buddhist or a Hindu will ultimately tell you that it comes down to intuition for them. Meaning they're philosophies that you personally have to intuit to be true. To me that doesn't sound like a good reason to believe anything.

I find that I do most things out of obligation rather than out of true love for God. My fear for Him is stronger than love. I feel that this has been a constant thing through my whole life, as much as I never wanted to admit it, I’ve decided to stop lying to myself about it. Being scrupulous doesn’t help much, either. I often wonder what my purpose is in following Him if I don’t have total love for him, divorced from the ruinous aspects of fear. Obviously I am a servant, and not a slave, but there is that sense in the back of my mind that I have a gun against my head. Truly, it seems burdensome to follow God; make no mistake, I go to confession, church, and I pray, but I have never, to my knowledge, had true peace in God.

>>13171718
Yes, I was the anon you were talking to. Thanks for your response anon.

>>13176791
I felt similarly until I had a mystical experience and began to pray the Rosary more. I think many people would simply say to you "pray more" and while that is not necessarily bad advice, I think prayer with the right mindset is the most important over prayer in greater quantities. I used to be very sentimental in my prayers for example and I overcame such struggles only by examining my own spiritual life and making amends.

That being said, I don't think there is really any one way you can instantly convert your thinking from being in fear to being in love. Certainly, focus your mind on happier things and try to focus on the most pleasant sides of the faith. The Rosary is an obviously great choice for this due to the Maternal comfort of Mary juxtaposed against the sufferings of Christ. However, by your post it seems like it would be likely you already pray it. Finally, maybe look into your mind and examine whether such struggles are spiritual or if they result from temporal things. I know some people that don't love God as much simply because they've had poor experiences with past relationships in their life, and as a result, have difficulties loving in general. Perhaps if you have these sort of past difficulties (which you may very well not have), resolving them will allow you to love God more.

>>13175363
Thank you! Pray for me, as I will pray for you (and everyone else).

>>13176146

Though I DO think that Doctrine deliberately contradicts Scripture for nefarious purposes, that is not WHY I rebuke it. As perverse as Doctrine is, it only justifies itself through attributing loose ends and inconsistencies to Scripture, which I maintain do not actually exist, thus Doctrine is not necessary on fundamental Logical grounds alone, regardless of its content. Some of which is incidentally good, by the way, like the Apophatic definition of the Trinity keeping Mereology at bay. However, it is wholly redundant since the Trinity is already Dialectical proper in the Gospels, precluding Mereology by default.

Can the trinity explained into Delueze-Guatari's conception of Body without Organ? Was Jesus a organ for fulfill(perform?) god's desire to be his son? Is trinity rhizomatic?

What are the best prayers?

Going to a festival today
going to drink a lot, smoke weed, smoke tobacco, drink tea, and do whatever else I find
Is that sinful?

>>13178803
The ones that pray for what is good.

SOCRATES: Are you going, Alcibiades, to offer prayer to Zeus?

ALCIBIADES: Yes, Socrates, I am.

SOCRATES: you seem to be troubled and to cast your eyes on the ground, as though you were thinking about something.

ALCIBIADES: Of what do you suppose that I am thinking?

SOCRATES: Of the greatest of all things, as I believe. Tell me, do you not suppose that the Gods sometimes partly grant and partly reject the requests which we make in public and private, and favour some persons and not others?

ALCIBIADES: Certainly.

SOCRATES: Do you not imagine, then, that a man ought to be very careful, lest perchance without knowing it he implore great evils for himself, deeming that he is asking for good, especially if the Gods are in the mood to grant whatever he may request? There is the story of Oedipus, for instance, who prayed that his children might divide their inheritance between them by the sword: he did not, as he might have done, beg that his present evils might be averted, but called down new ones. And was not his prayer accomplished, and did not many and terrible evils thence arise, upon which I need not dilate?

>>13178582
>mfw catholics, pharisees, and assorted teacher's pets are extremely buttmad
>>>/lit/thread/S13178155#p13178883

>>13178867
It's all about intention with these things. Think of it this way, sin chips away at the integrity of your immortal soul and its connection with God. Since none of the things you mentioned are inherently sinful, ask yourself questions about your mindset.

>>13179036
The mindset is some hedonist enjoyment as a reward after a hard exam season, and a way to bond and enjoy time with my friends
I don't plan on any extra-marital sex or anything
I'm not Christian, or even much of a believer in God, yet somehow it still looms over me

>>13179043
Enjoy yourself mate.

>Depressed last summer
>Completely degenerate and constantly in mad fluctuations of guilt
>Lose much of my zeal, start to become more interested in esoterism outside of Catholicism
>Depression goes away
>Get back into the faith a few days ago
>Depression comes back full force

Does anyone have any idea why such a thing would occur? It's not from No Fap withdrawal since I've been doing that off and on even when I wasn't taking my faith seriously. I haven't had any significant changes in my life and the only thing is that I started to pray again a few days ago. Is this unironically some sort of demonic attack? Is it maybe from the shame of Christianity? Is it from me realizing my past sins? I have absolutely no idea why my mind would change so quickly and I am worried about going to Confession today since I feel like it would bring up a lot of the old self-loathing that once afflicted me and just make this situation worse. I don't know what to do and I am thinking about just giving up this again since it seems Catholicism is some sort of curse on me. I really wish I could have a healthy relationship with it, but it doesn't seem very possible.

>>13178582
read the catechism

>>13179821

Read Matthew 23.

>>13180092
>Matthew 23

what does verse 2-3 say, pray tell?

>>13178803
Sign of the Cross
Our Father
Hail Mary
Glory Be
Angel of God
Apostles and Nicene Creed
Rosary
Chaplet of Divine Mercy
Chaplet of St. Michael

>>13180285

>All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Saying and doing are very much mutually-pervading in the whole chapter, I doubt any of their deeds can "shut up the kingdom of Heaven against men". It's akin to "turn the other cheek" and such. Which, by the way, Catholics would interpret as pyschosexual sadomasochism as well were it not for Doctrine incidentally being right in explaining its magnanimity.

On Psalm 100:
>When then are we jubilant? When we praise that which cannot be uttered. For we observe the whole creation, the earth and the sea, and all things that therein are: we observe that each have their sources and causes, the power of production, the order of birth, the limit of duration, the end in decease, that successive ages run on without any confusion, that the stars roll, as it seems, from the East to the West, and complete the courses of the years: we see how the months are measured, how the hours extend; and in all these things a certain invisible element, I know not what, but some principle of unity, which is termed spirit or soul, present in all living things, urging them to the pursuit of pleasure and the avoidance of pain, and the preservation of their own safety; that man also has somewhat in common with the Angels of God; not with cattle, such as life, hearing, sight, and so forth; but somewhat which can understand God, which peculiarly does belong to the mind, which can distinguish justice and injustice, as the eye discerns white from black. In all this consideration of creation, which I have run over as I could, let the soul ask itself: Who created all these things? Who made them? Who made among them yourself?...I have observed the whole creation, as far as I could.

That's the stuff, bros.

>>13178232
Thank you, I shall pray.

>>13179434
Peace be with you

Hope this helps in anyway, really I just hope someone more articulate and informed can help you out or better yet a priest, spiritual director. To be blunt it sounds to me like you're being subtly influenced by dark forces even a demon and suffering from scrupulosity which is a spiritual disease. I've never suffered scrupulosity so all I can kinda say is that i'm sorry you suffering this and I ask anon's ITT to pray for your heath. Do you know about Divine Mercy? Basically no one is so deep in sin that they can't receive peace from Jesus and it's offensive to Him that you think you're outside of his limitless mercy. Also if you're attracted to the esoteric there's plenty of deep Catholicism that one could consider "esoteric" but it's just isn't well known. Plenty of people don't even know about the story and miraculous image of Our Lady of Guadalupe even though it's a pilgrimage site more popular than the Vatican itself, so I'd say you need to immerse yourself in the deposit of faith.

>Is it maybe from the shame of Christianity
"The Church is not a resort for righteous people but a hospital for sinners" - Pope Francis
The only "shame" you feel is that feeling when you realize you fall short of what God what like you to be and originally designed you to be but that's okay because literally everyone is a sinner and God is not at all surprised by this. Even a saint like Therese of Lisieux who probably never commuted a mortal sin in her entire life wasn't perfect, we can't achieve perfection in this life, that's for heaven. FYI I'm going to confession today too (if all goes well, God willing) and when the priest in persona Christi says he absolves you of your sins you truly in a very real way become clean from all those sins and are able to take the Eucharist without guilt. Confession is great because it's like being baptized for the first time which also cleans your soul. God isn't going to have some grudge because of your sins as long as you confess them and receive mercy.

Good luck, take care, and God bless.

>>13180635
I didn't end up going to Confession today and just returned to my normal lifestyle. I feel much better and I wonder why I even was bothering the first place. Thank you for your reply though. I hope everything works out for you. I will be taking a different path. I just can't do the Pauline moralism of Christianity nor the shame that comes along with. I will continue the pursuit of my own path.

>>13180285
>>13180430

This is reason enough but also:

>And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
>And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
>But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

"AUTHORIZED CATHOLIC TRANSLATION":

>But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Paul, Augustine, Aquinas, hysteric Jews screeching about the Torah, the Pope, public school menopausal finger-waggers; and all ye are sinners.

>>13181082
I'm sorry to hear that, it kinda bums me out :/
>I will continue the pursuit of my own path.
It's said that all paths lead to Rome but so do all spiritual ones as well. I'm sure you'll come around, as Peter once said "But Lord to whom shall we go?". I still wish you good luck, good health, and blessing. :)

>>13180430
>>13181090

what god awful translation are you using? the only reason priests are called "father" is because they ASSUME THE PERSON of christ. it is quite ironic you think you can intrepret scriptures better than literally thousands of years of Fathers and commentators. your arrogance alone is astonishing, indeed, it seems you're assuming the role of rabbi. your personal opinion on a text holds ZERO weight against the magisterium and centuries of exegesis. it's quite amazing you can't seem to get that through your head.

>>13181090

here's what a good translation looks like btw:

"The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice."

yes, the Church is full of sinners, even at positions of leadership. but the Church's teaching? that is independent of the *conduct* of any one cleric, and is in fact quite irrelevant. you are unable to see the forest for the trees, I have nothing left to say to you.

>>13181198
>scripture is so alien to catholics they can't even identify king james

>>13181226

>faulty antiquarian translation is the *only* bedrock by which we should read scripture!

this is you^

>>13181226

who's the dogmatic now?

>>13181198
>>13181216
>>13181237

You can't recognize the King James version on sight. It's like not knowing what the Christian cross looks like or who Jesus is. Peak tragicomedy.

>>13181226
>Kang Jim Bybole

>>13181256

you are *idolizing* a literal translation from the 1600s. you sound like a "nondenominational" lmao

>>>/megachurch/

>>13181226

I love when pr*testants reveal their KJV-only hand, immediately discredits all they have to say.

>>13181265
>>13181276
>>13181286
>literally thousands of years of Fathers and commentators
>the magisterium and centuries of exegesis.
>can't recognize THE english translation

This is hilarious.

>>13181310

you mean an inaccurate, partisan, hackjob? i'll pass.

>>13181310
>can't recognize THE english translation
You mean the Douay-Rheims?

>>13181323

Do you recognize this object? What is it?

>>13181323
>>13181351

What do you think painting means? Who are the people in it and what are they doing? Why is the man levitating? Who is he? Who is he, boy? WHOISBOY? WHOSTHEMAN??

Looks like I'll be facing LITERALLY THOUSANDS OF jannies and will face the wrath of THE MAGISTERIUM AND CENTURIES OF deletion pretty soon.

>>13181393
That's a part of the Isenheim Altarpiece painting by the German Catholic Matthias Grünewald. I like how Joe Rogan type pot-heads think that's supposed to be a magic mushroom when it's just something their seeing in it.

>>13181356
>>13181393
>>13181449

SEETHING. looks like the proddy got cornered uh oh. shouldnt you be ordaining women or something?

>>13181603

I should be recognizing King James on sight, which I am, unlike you.

bump

Also post yfw you receive absolution. :)

>>13178803
The psalms. The Church has made the psalter the basis of her official liturgical prayer since the time of Christ and the apostles.
By extension: the breviary (pre-VII, of course).

I feel like killing myself because continuing to live would mean continuing to offend God through my sins and addiction, offending and hurting others through the same sins, and because I'm a neurotic ball of anxiety, wild mood swings, self loathing, guilt, loneliness, and lust. I know that Christ died for my sake but I often feel so low and devoid of value that I wonder if I can make myself feel deserving of the Atonement.
What do I do from here? Where do I go?

>>13182890
The sin of Suicide is far greater than any other sin you could commit since it is essentially impossible for it to be forgiven (technically it's possible and there are exceptions, but obviously one can't ask God for forgiveness after the act). Thus, you should fear that more so than the other sins which you may be worried about; the others are ultimately forgivable and you can gradually improve upon them. Thus, it's most important to get a place in your life where you can first of all, regardless of any other temporal problems, appreciate the life you have, even if you are sinful like anyone else. If you haven't talked to a spiritual leader and/or a psychologist (preferably both), you should do so.

It's a bit difficult for me to give advice since I don't know what sort of addiction you are dealing with and in what ways you are struggling in your psychological life. I can tell you for sure though, the one which we hurt the most through sin is not God, but ourselves. When I sin I am willingly dragging myself down to become a primitive, brute creature. I tend to be less scrupulous when I think of sin in this way and less as a disappointment to a loved one. Additionally, you should never worry about not being worthy of the love of Christ, because let's face it, no one is truly worthy. One finite person will never come close to truly being deemed worthy of the infinite love of God. Both you and the greatest Saints to ever live are both, ultimately, temporal creatures during your time on Earth that are both but a drop of water in the sea when compared to the infinite being and love of God.

How have you found your purpose in life brothers? I can't find God's purpose for me. I'm drifting and time is running out.

>>13182975
Why is time running out? Are you ill?

Either way, you shouldn't worry about finding some perfect path. If you cultivate your soul and mind properly, any path can theoretically lead to the highest of spiritual unions with God. See for example, the guilds of middle ages, the military orders, the mendicant orders, monastic communities, lay fraternities, etc. all throughout the ages all producing many noble men, even though they are so diverse in subject matter. All paths lead to God at the end of the day, if taken long enough.

>>13183001
If I don't dedicate myself to some career path now I worry I'll be left behind and crushed underneath the wheel. I'm barely staying afloat. My faith in the next life is strong but in this life I'm worried poverty and hardship is coming my way.

>>13182967
>Additionally, you should never worry about not being worthy of the love of Christ, because let's face it, no one is truly worthy. One finite person will never come close to truly being deemed worthy of the infinite love of God. Both you and the greatest Saints to ever live are both, ultimately, temporal creatures during your time on Earth that are both but a drop of water in the sea when compared to the infinite being and love of God.
I know this. I know there's no such thing as deserving or being worthy of the love of God. That's the whole point - that it's a free gift, charitable and unearned. Yet I still feel this way.
I have issues with guilt. I can't ever forgive myself or forget what I've done and I know that I'll continue to do things that will make me more guilty.
I know that by killing myself I'll essentially be saying that I don't want the life God has given me, but at the same time, I can't stop seeing myself as a constant burden to those around me, something that drags others down, a net negative. It seems incredibly tempting to just remove myself from the equation by ending my own life rather than force others to deal with my problems, problems that are solely caused by myself and my shameful, selfish behavior. I would feel very guilty if I even asked someone I know for help with this kind of stuff because I would, in a sense, be forcing my issues onto them.
I was reading the book of Job yesterday and was very struck by the passage where he laments ever being born, and wishes he simply went straight from the womb to the grave. I often have wished the same, if for somewhat different reasons.
It's difficult for me to write this kind of stuff since I feel selfish for just dumping my problems onto others, even anonymous others. It's kind of a last resort since lately I've been thinking of and planning suicide more intensely than ever and I figure a bad couple days would be enough to make me do it.

How to not engage with argument with other people on this site?

>>13182975
>>13183062
Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

I too struggle sometimes, but I always return to this scripture to put things in perspective. One day you will be able to look back and connect the dots.

Don't forget to pray.

Thy will be done

>>13182890
The other anon has said much better advice than I could ever give. But I just want to say that it might help if you say this to the Lord in your prayers. No one is too imperfect enough to enter a conversation with God. Complain if you have too. Times of trouble and suffering is exactly when you should willingly offer your wounded heart to the Lord.
Remember to be merciful with yourself. Ask for help from your inspirational saints and your beloved guardian angel. I’ll pray for you.

>>13183161
Job feels that way, but eventually is redeemed. It is important to understand that when reading scripture that is not pleasant.
I suspect many of your burdens are not theological and rather stem from temporal issues. If you are driven to such straits as these, I would imagine that this situation goes beyond just guilt and sin and into deeply personal experiences for you, many of which are not your fault. I was born in a fairly strict household growing up and as a result, tend to feel guilt very strongly as well. As the years have gone by, I've realized that I cannot change my past actions, and much of these guilty feelings that arise are not my fault entirely.

Also, let it be known that the faith is for our benefit. If we feel as if it is crippling us, it is totally acceptable to take a step back and a little while to analyze ourselves a bit. I'm not saying become an apostate, but perhaps you are using Catholicism as an unhealthy crutch and you need to resolve some problem in your personal life first, before progressing spiritually. I really cannot stress this enough. It is far better to take a break and partake in some escapism than it is to be constantly pressured when you are already facing challenges. Once again, that could just be projecting, but I see a lot of people on this board struggling for this reason. Finally, don't be so tough on yourself since you have admitted your guilt. You cannot change the past and it is pointless to worry about it. If we are forgiven, we are forgiven, and to think otherwise is ignorance. I would give more opinions/thoughts, but I don't know your situation and don't want to be inconsiderate. Ultimately, whatever you have done can't be anything more than what past saints have been forgiven of.

>>13183162
Limit time on this site. Don't respond to bait/non-serious posters. Ultimately, arguing with others is fine, but arguing emotionally with slander/insults etc. is not. Stick to the former and you are fine.

>>13183275
damn...based shrimp guy

>>13168946
Like any good Christian should.

>>13182967

Suicide is barely mentioned in either Testament, never condemned. In fact, Jesus says it's the only way he can die.

Is this or the ignatius press one better? First time reading btw

Cathbros, emergency question: I am severely lapsed, many years out of the Church, but slowly coming back. I have been thinking of making a confession soon so I can properly receive communion, but due to relocating to a place were my language is not spoken, have not yet done it. My father is in town and invited me to mass with him, and I know it would mean the world to him if I went, but if I decline to receive communion, that would be obvious and problematic. What to do?

Receive communion to spare my dad's feelings and make a confession at first opportunity? Sit this one out entirely? Advice needed, and thank you. I have about an hour.

>>13184214
Fapping to Futurama rule 34 is never actually condemned in either testament, however we can read between the lines and find that certain actions are wrong regardless.
Suicide is wrong because you are still actively taking a life, which we see condemned time and time again. Jesus didn't commit suicide. He handed his life over knowing that the Jews and the Romans would have him killed, however having prior knowledge of this doesn't make it suicide. Likewise, martyrs who gave up their life in an act of profession of faith aren't actually committing suicide.

>>13184333
I had a similar issue when I returned to the faith. I was never educated on the fact that you're not meant to accept communion in a state of mortal sin.
My mum found it odd when she saw that I didn't accept the eucharist once, but after church I simply explained that I haven't been to confession in a long time and Christ calls us to reconcile our disputes first before coming to the table to eat with him, so I will accept the eucharist the next time I go after confessing and cleaning my soul.
I think she was quite pleased to hear my response, and I have no doubt your dad would feel the same way if you said something similar.

>>13184410

I mean Ontologically, he says he cannot be killed and can only die willingly in John 10:18:

>No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

>>13184589
First of all, that which is permitted for God is by no means that which is permitted for some random person. The quote is talking about surrendering oneself as a sacred act. It's pretty clear that quote is not talking about suicide in the profane sense of just killing oneself and being done with it. To think that the crucifixion was just suicide is not correct.

>>13184958

My point being that it's a categorical statement about how Jesus can die, exclusively by his own will, regardless of WHY he might die. Inasmuch as you think Jesus did not sin, and I'm not being facetious here since you ARE a Catholic, you are forced to accept suicide as sanctioned by God.

>>13184272
They seem to be a pretty good publisher, I was thinking of getting their edition of the Douay-Rheims but ended up choosing the Baronius Press edition instead which is also really good. Ignatius Press is also really good but I have their Didache and NT Study Bible, not the stand alone RSV edition. You can't go wrong with either the St. Benedict Press or Ignatius Press editions.

Cathanons, what books/materials can you recommend me to understand the deeper and intellectual theology to Catholicism? I feel very much like a brainlet about this.

>>13185592
Aquinas is as good a place to start as any and he's much easier to read than most people think. Brian Davies is great for an introduction and has some commentaries for the Contra Gentiles and Summa Theologia. Some other goods option are Edward Feser's Introduction to Scholastic Metaphysics and The One and The Many by Norris Clarke. If you would rather start with Aquinas himself, his Compendium of Theology is probably the best place because it was written for the layman.

>>13185592
Some picks

Catechism of the Catholic Church
The Baltimore Catechism
The Catechism of the Council of Trent
The Catechism of St. Pope Pious X
The Catechism of St. Robert Bellarmine
The Aquinas Catechism
Catholic Christianity by Peter Kreeft

The Light of Christ
The Spirit of Catholicism
Catholicism by Bishop Barron
Theology and Sanity
Spirit of Medieval Philosophy - Thomas Merton, the OP's pic, began converting to Catholicism after reading this book and seeing it had an Imprimatur


Enchiridion Symbolorum
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma
Summa Theologica

The Imitation of Christ
The Imitation of Mary
In Sinu Jesu by Anonymous Benedictine Monk
The Secret of the Rosary
True Devotion to Mary

Honestly it be kinda overwhelming the amount amazing literature that's in the faith, i've barely covered some writing of the saints and didn't touch on prayer books like The Liturgy of the Hours or The Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

>materials
Sensus Fidelium youtube channel
Tumblar House yt
Robert Haddad - underrated lecturer

to name a few

Is there any point in reading works of theology if you don't believe?

>>13185821

That's the whole point of Catholicism, apparently.

>>13158962
All things can be a source for humor anon

>>13158983
Why do you imagine the purpose of life is not happiness or bonds w/ others anon?

>>13185821
It could lead to you believe as did for me. It's not a strictly theological work but reading Bishop Barron's book led to me be convince that Catholicism is true. My whole life I always thought Christianity was "stupid" mainly because Protestantism was/is the most vocal side of Christianity and my parents didn't know anything but the most basic of basic things like "Jesus died for us" and "The devil can posses you", etc. Catholics are also bad at explaining the faith as well mainly because they don't know anything. I shouldn't really be talking though since i'm still a newcomer-revert.

>>13164590
The way many (most? Catholics and Christian s included) pursue it, yes. The way Jesus taught, no.

>>13185821
Most definitely. Augustine wrote the first western autobiography that was also partly theological. Scotus is getting a revival and Deluze actually borrowed a lot of his philosophical insight. Aquinas is super important to western philosophy as a whole and historically for his influence on later rationalists. Heidegger was influenced by the Scholastic theologians, Guenon thought Scholastic theology was the best way of explaining God that was native to the west, etc. The list goes on and on. I will preface this however that there is definitely some more specialized theology that you probably will not get much from if you are not a believer. Mariology and things of that nature are going to be appreciated much more if you are a Catholic.

>>13181198
JC: "Call no man Father."
Caths: "By this he meant call lots of dudes father."

>>13181323
You realize the Catholic church ALSO used the KJV, right anon? In the Anglican Ordinariate.

>>13186256
By "call no man father" he means call no man master, as in call no man God. Jesus isn't telling us not to talk to our biological fathers or our doctors, since doctor which literally translates to "master."

>>13186303

Is "Queen of Heaven", thus, in the clear?

>>13186256
"And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell". - Kang Jerome Bybole

JC: cut your hand off
prot: lol Jesus i'm already saved you can't do anything about it :P

Why don't prots pluck their eyes off or dive into deep water with a millstone tied around their neck? Oh wait, nvm they're already saved and don't even believe in sin in some groups but you want to Catholics to "call no man father" but don't want to cut your hand off, you Bible-idolizing hypocrite.

>>13186399
I don't understand the question. Is it wrong to call Mary the Queen of Heaven? Aside from being irrelevant, the answer is no. The title comes from the Kingdom of Judah where the mother of the king was given the title of queen. Mary is Jesus' mother and Jesus is the king of heaven, therefore Mary is the queen of heaven.

>>13186450
>Mary is Jesus' mother

Why does he never call her "mother"?

>>13186469
Oh nit's you again. If you want to do this, you need to explain it would even matter. Why would Jesus have to refer to Mary as mother in order for us to consider her his mother? I've asked this same question to you three or four and you haven't even tried to answer it. Jesus never told us that we can't fly planes into buildings, but we can infer that it would be wrong using evidence found within the bible. I don't know if Jesus ever called Mary mother and I never even bother to look, I'm just assuming he didn't because it doesn't matter. There is plenty enough evidence to suggest she is his mother without Jesus directly calling her as such.

>>13186484
Oh it's you again. If you want to do this, you need to explain why it would even matter. Why would Jesus have to refer to Mary as mother in order for us to consider her his mother? I've asked this same question to you three or four times and you haven't even tried to answer it. Jesus never told us that we can't fly planes into buildings, but we can infer that it would be wrong using evidence found within the bible. I don't know if Jesus ever called Mary mother and I never even bothered to look, I'm just assuming he didn't because it doesn't matter. There is plenty enough evidence to suggest she is his mother without Jesus directly calling her as such.

>>13186496
>and I never even bothered to look,

Well...you ARE a Catholic. As I've said in the previous thread, the coincidence of God and Man wherein one explicitly calls God his Father many times but calls NO ONE his mother is very jarring. By the way, it's been me the whole time.

>>13186526
I'm not doing this until you answer the question. Maybe some other schmuck will talk to you.

I'm just post this for no reason at all

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_silence

>>13185592

I highly highly recommend Merton and Robert Barron

>>13186256
If Jesus says in Matthew 23:9 to "call no man father," then why do Catholics call priests "father"? For the same reason St. Paul called himself father to the Christians in Corinth (1 Cor. 4:15), it is an appropriate title for the shepherds of Christ's flock. Jesus also says in Matthew 23:8-10 to call no man teacher or "master," yet Protestants often call their seminary-educated pastors and theologians "doctor," a word that literally means "master" or "teacher."

Jesus was only warning his followers against inflating the pride of the Jewish leaders and elevating their authority above God's authority. He was not forbidding the existence of an spiritual fathers or teachers that he might call to humbly serve his church.

>>13185916

To love God with all your heart mine and soul, and your neighbor as yourself. To serve and love God in this world and the next

>>13186526

see

>>13186550

>>13186536

You are indeed ignorant of Scripture so much so that you haven't even read it, but I'm sure you understand the problem at least Logically. Though I'd have no issue with simply accepting your general idiocy along with your particular one.

Does anyone of good works exploring similarities between faiths?
I was reading Hojoki earlier (a work by a hermit buddhist monk; on impermanence, his experiences in solitude, and his dissatisfaction with his spiritual state).
Would the following metaphor used by Chomei be apt for sin in the Christian sense?:

In winter, the snow fills me with pathos. The sight of it piling so high only to melt and vanish is like the mounting sins that block our path to redemption, which penitence will erase.

>>13186662
I'm not seeing an answer to that very simple question, plenty of insults though. I do know the scriptures pretty well, I just don't remember if Jesus ever referred to Mary directly as mother. I never bothered to look despite talking to you many times because the force of your argument is so incredibly weak and fallacious. I never even felt the slightest compulsion to look and that was the point I was getting across to you.

>>13186705

By your Logic, why can't I call Tiberius Emperor of God?

>>13186736
What logic are you talking about? You're not even responding to anything I said, you're just repeating things you said before.

>>13158695
Bump. Just for the intellectual thrill can you guys share with me the reason you believe? I'm a catholic so not trying to bait just interested to hear other people describe the sensation of God.

>>13186750

You say Jesus never calling Mary his mother is irrelevant because you can deduce and affirm her as such. He never calls Tiberius his Emperor either, why can't I likewise deduce and affirm him as such?

>>13186755
I don't believe but for some reason I feel as if God is looming over me anyway; I don't believe that Christianity is true, yet part of me believes it is for some odd reason

>>13186765
>He never calls Tiberius his Emperor either, why can't I likewise deduce and affirm him as such?
coincidentally a strong argument against sola scriptura lel

>>13186766
If you don't mind me asking could you explain why it is you don't believe? Is the supernatural elements of religion or just an inability to make the jump to faith?

Again got to say sorry if my wording offends i'm not trying to sound conceited or arrogant.

>>13186765
We can infer that Mary is Jesus' mother because she's referred to as such throughout the gospels. I don't even know what you're trying to "deduce and affirm" about Tiberius. Are you asking how we know Tiberius was a Roman emperor? We have historical chronicles from people like Tacitus, I don't know.

I have to ask a genuine question. Are you schizophrenic? I'm not even trying to pick on you but you don't reason like a normal person.

>>13186813

Tiberius purports himself Emperor of Jesus by occupying his land and subjugating his people, however Jesus does not affirm him as such. Mary purports herself his mother by giving birth to him and raising him, however Jesus does not affirm her as such. If you affirm her as mother of God, I can affirm Tiberius as Emperor of God.

>>13186871
Okay go for it.

>>13186804

My point being that I DON'T.

>>13186882

OH REGAL TIBERIUS CESAR OF HEAVEN

JUDEA IS WORTHY OF THE MESSIAH THROUGH THY LEGIONS OF GLORY

THOU OBSERVED THE CROPS BY WHICH HE MIGHT LIVE

THOU PASSED LAW BY WHICH HE MIGHT WORK

THOU STEADFASTLY GUARDED THE LANDS IN WHICH HE SLEPT

OH GENEROUS TIBERIUS

THOU PAVED WITH UTMOST DILIGENCE THE ROAD UNTO WHICH

OH IMPERIAL TIBERIUS

HE MIGHT TAKE UP HIS CROSS

AS PRESCIENT AS THOU ARE INDUSTRIOUS

OH RULING TIBERIUS

THE NAILS THAT STEADIED YOUR PLEBEIAN

OH MAGNIFICENT TIBERIUS

AN APOTHEOSIS OF YOUR METALLURGY

OH RESPLENDENT TIBERIUS

HE EMBRACED HIS PLEBEIAN SO

AVE AVE AVE

Thanks for the concession! "Antichrist" would be a compliment.

>>13186890
my point being that you could, as there is nothing guiding you except your own reason

>>13186895

no offense but you're batshit insane. seriously. in a medical way.

>>13187075

Think he's in a manic state rn.

Recommendations on more books etc. in line with Love and Responsibility? also general advice on chastity?

>>13186303
Right, as in consider no man your spiritual superior. Pope, etc, seem much against eh?

>>13186303
You can't possibly think "Call no man father/rabbi, etc" means "Call no man God"

>>13186805
I just don't believe tbqh
I am presented with the arguments and do not believe

>>13186434
Bro, chill. a) I'm not against cutting of body parts to avoid sin if you need to. b) even if I wasn't the idea that if one doesn't take x literal you must also take y not literal doesn't at all follow. It's clear from context Christ is telling us to set no man above us as spiritual superior, e.g. Father, master, rabbi, etc.

>>13187156
>also general advice on chastity?
Read through Augustine's Confessions, the parts dealing with his addiction to lust might be of interest to you.
t. anon struggling with the same stuff

>>13186574
No,for several reasons. It's clear from context Christ is telling us to set no man above us as spiritual superior. And we know this because he ends that statement with "for you are all brothers". Paul speaking to his converts & calling them his children is appropriate because he personally lead them to Christ, & is making a relationship claim not superiority claim. I also in the same sense have a God father, a man who lead me to Christ. Any random priest is not my spiritual father, to calls class of men that as hierarchical title & not in reference to an actual relationshi p is clearly going against what Christ was going for here.

>>13186895
I mean, I'm down with Mary but Catholics do turn her into an idol. At any given Catholic function you'll hear Mary prayed to 10 times for every one prayer to Jesus. Honestly I think they do it just because it is so heavily not protestant. It's a cultural identifier for them.

>>13187796
James 5:14-18

>>13187834
In the modern Catholic Novus Ordo mass, there are really quite few mentions of her. There is no Hail Mary said at mass. It's also very vague by what you mean by "Catholic Function"

>>13187834
>it is so heavily not protestant.
/his/let detected. Christians both Western and Eastern Catholics have been praying Marian prayers LONG before the Protestant Revolt.

>t any given Catholic function you'll hear Mary prayed to 10 times for every one prayer to Jesus.
You probably heard a Rosary in process that's why. Like the other anon said there is not ONE Hail Mary said during the Mass.

>>13178803
The Holy Mass.

>>13182422
Deo gratias.

>>13187834
Well this is a logical response to the degree to which Mary has shown herself to be a powerful intercessor on our behalf. Of all the advocates we have in Heaven, she seems to be particularly potent, as evidenced by the numerous Marian apparitions approved by the Church. There are plenty of saints with apparitions to their names, but nothing on the scale of, say, Lourdes of Fatima. Like so much in Catholicism, it's not really an invention so much as a reaction.

>>13187834

Marian devotion rn is probably the least it's been in the Church since the Scholastics. I for one am actually more in favor of a CST type theology

bump

>>13187942
I mean mass but also stuff like KoC and various other Catholic auxiliary group gatherings

>>13187973
I'm aware of all this, I'm not opposed to praying to Saints, me & St Nick are bros. However, the degree to which Catholicism is about Mary seems excessive to the point of idolatry. She's essentially elevated to a goddess.

>>13189004
I should note, I was in the KoC. I converted to Catholicism in like 2016 but have since become protestant again. Well, not really, I've just since come to not care about the distinction. Currently I worship with baptists.

>>13173130
>>13173884
I am back from my retreat and prayed for your intentions. May God bless you.
>>13176653
Forgive me, I turned off my phone for the duration of the retreat before I could see this. Nevertheless, you will be in my prayer in the coming days.

>>13177305
Good to see you again anon. God be with you

>>13189021
If you were truly "aware of all this" then you wouldn't say something as disingenuous "cats DO turn her into an idol", "its so heavily not protestant", "it's a cultural identifier for them". Maybe it's a cultural identifier for prots or 'I am just a Christian :D' types to rely on the Bible as a sole rule of faith and to slander and dishonor Christ mother who literally is the new Ark of the New Covenant just as Yahweh was present in the Ark of the Old Covenant which was only just a wooden box covered in gold while Mary is far greeter than some box. Marian devotions are older than the first book of the NT. I almost want to ask prots what they think the first Christians were doing for some 40-50 years before the first Gospel(s) and Epistle(s) was written, it's like they were just roaming the ancient world being pressured without their Bible and with their thumbs up their ass waiting for "muh Bible" for the church to actually start.

>me & St Nick are bros.
I know this is going to sound mean but you're not "bros" with St. Nicholas if you don't believe in the communion of Saints, which is a Catholic thing, (inb4 but I know this special X church that does :P). Sorry but St Nick wouldn't recognize you.

>worship with baptists.
Singing hymns, listing to a 30-1 hour sermon from a pastor, "letting Jesus into your heart", and feeling good isn't "worship".

>>13189222
*persecuted

Genuine question:

I've heard the argument, very often, that heaven is something beyond man's comprehension. That time and all other mortal things may be not of that space, if it even is a space.

Do you agree or disagree with this view?
Ironically enough, if you agree with this view, I will feel it is the worst possible state for heaven - but there is no need for explanation if no one even believes the premise established above.

>>13188521
CST?

>>13189239

Actually:

>>>13186614

>>13185669
>>13185816
>>13186568
Thank you anons. I'll try to get into these soon.

>>13173608
>Tasmania
It takes a great deal of courage to be a priest down there. From what I hear, it's quite a demonic part of Australia. A recent episode I'm sure you've heard of: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-03/catholic-priest-removed-from-tasmanian-church/10967746

>>13182422

What's the best to explain the bits in the OT where God demands the Israelites to genocide the inhabitants in their future nation? Is it good because it's His will?

New thread?

>>13190417
>It is understood a parishioner had sent a letter of complaint to the Archdiocese, which included allegations only men were allowed to serve at the altar, and concerns about mass held in Latin.

What times we live in. People unironically complaining about the mass. Why Bishops value democratic input is beyond me.

New thread:
>>13191360
>>13191360
>>13191360