/lit/ - Literature

>>13406148
AHHHH YESSSSSS

>>13406148
The Christian God is YHWH the holy trinity. The logos is Jesus the Son, second person of the eternal trinity

>>13406148
The Logos of the NT isn't the Logos of the Stoics... It is the Memra of the Targums of pre-Christian rabbinical Theology, the Word of Yahweh or Angel of Yahweh in the OT and specially the Word of Yahweh in the Book of Wisdom of Jesus Ben Sirac

>>13407588
So why is it 'Logos' in the Gospels and not 'Memra'?

>>13406148
aaaaaaaaaaaa

>>13406163
Hence. Christianity is polytheistic. Case closed.

>>13407794
Because they wrote it in Greek?

>>13407822
>not understanding the consubstantial persons of the Trinity as one in essence but three in person
never gonna make it, flutterby

>>13406148
pathetic

>>13407822
No, polytheism is the belief in many gods. Christianity is monotheistic, believing in one God

>>13407835
So why is a different language, and more importantly, why use a word with a vastly different metaphysical connotation than the """real""" word?
Why not take John at his word?

>>13406148
Hellenic Gospels aren't Hellenic. They're Hebrew.

>>13407865
They were all originally written in Greek though. Jesus even spoke Greek!

>>13407849
Only if you accept the "mystery" of the trinity, which is to say that 3 = 1 despite the obvious impossibility of this.

Let's define God as D and the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as A, B, and C. So A = D, B = D, and C = D. Simple enough, but necessarily then A = B and C = A, christians emphatically insist that this is not the case, it's some form of heresy, Arianism or whatever. The trinity is comprised of 3 separate beings, who are fully God in and of themselves (insisting that the 3 come together to form God is partialism, another heresy), but they are also fully separate and not equivalent to one another. From where I'm standing I count 3 separate entities being worshipped. Polytheism, fuck you.

>>13407868
There were Semites who spoke Greek, Jesus being one of them. Still a Semite though.

>>13407875
I don't really see what relevance this debate has but if it's not written in Hebrew it doesn't count as Hebrew literature.

>>13406148
>>13407865
no

>>13407869
Oh, you’re confusing divine substance with a math problem. Needless to say, they’re not the same thing. Christianity is monotheistic because it teaches there is one God

>>13407895
What I'm saying is that it is founded by Semites so it more closely coincides with Semitic culture than with Hellenic culture.

>>13407901
That's the scripture, but I don't believe in the scripture. The Hindus are actual monotheists, they believe every God to be another aspect of Brahma. That makes sense so I'll accept it. Christians insist on there being 1 God despite defining 3 separate entities as being God. They are polytheists, despite what their doctrine insists.
The Mormons insist that Joseph Smith can read Egyptian. But we, the rest of the planet, do not have to count him among the ranks of people who actually can. What's insisted by doctrine means very little in the secular world.

>>13407921
Yeah but “monotheism” is a word for a doctrinal view. Christians are to take monotheism as doctrine, therefore Christianity is monotheistic. You even say in your post “Christians insist on there being 1 God.” Yeah, that’s because Christianity is monotheistic.

>>13407906
It's debated as to whether the authors of the Gospels were Greek or Hellenized Jews but the Hellenistic style of the literature is very obvious as well as the inclusion of concepts foreign to Jewish thinking such as the Logos itself.
I would say that the new testament is a syncretic document in that it uses Jewish mythology as a foundation but ultimately, the style and language is Greek.

>>13407940
What does Christian logos have to do with Greek logos though? The only viable connection is Plato.

>>13407939
But if their doctrine lists multiple, separate gods, not aspects of one, wouldn't it make more sense to include it with polytheistic religions in a categorical sense? The fact that their faith insists on an impossibility doesn't change the actual logical consequences of what they say. The church of Scientology claims it isn't a cult as well, and yet if you look up a list of cults...

>>13407943
Maybe I'm not understanding your question but that's my point, the Christian Logos is Plato's Logos, there's a clear example of the Hellenism.

>>13407947
Plato is very divergent compared to most other Hellenes. A connection to him is not very much a valid connection to the Hellenes.

>>13407957
The idea of Plato being separate from what's considered Hellenic influence seems really far fetched, to put it mildly.

>>13407944
Not him, but in case you are open-minded and not an edgy faggot:
>https://www.livingshamrock.com/shamrock-story/

>>13407837
>Not understanding how to count

>>13407849
Pick one then.
You know the Gnostics figured this out, right?

>>13407964
St Patrick's shamrock analogy is textbook partialism as far as I can tell.

>>13407851
Because Greek was the common language in those days?
Also not sure what you mean by "vastly different" connotations, logos and memra are words
It is like asking why did St. Jerome use domine instead of kύριε

>>13407971
>textbook partialism
I would have to conceded this but my example does establish the primary logic point, though it may lack in other aspects. It is a good tool for introducing the concept, though it be an imperfect comparison.

>>13407944
Christianity doesn’t believe in “multiple, separate gods.” Christianity makes a distinction between “God” and “person,” and believes in one God in three persons.
Three gods = polytheism
One God = monotheism
Christianity is monotheistic because it teaches there is one God
>>13407967
I don’t have to pick, it was already picked when the first book of the Bible was written. Since then, the religion has always maintained that there is one God

>>13407988
From what I've read it's what St. Patrick had in mind as well. But, my point is that it doesn't work logically. The mystery has to be accepted on faith, it's one of those parts of God that is supposed to exist beyond human reasoning. But I don't see why those of us who don't have that faith need to also buy into the mystery.

>>13408003
>I don't see why those of us who don't have that faith need to also buy into the mystery
What?

>>13407997
Three persons that equal one God, but are not parts of a broader concept that is called God, three separate persons who are entirely God by themselves. How is this not three Gods?

>>13408006
The trinity can only be understood through faith, i.e. it can't be understood, it needs to be accepted without reason as a pre-requisite to faith. Without faith though it appears to simply be three Gods. Why should a categorizer of religion care about this absurdity? Why not file it with the polytheisms, regardless of what the faithful think?

>>13408007
Because they all share the same divine essence. If they were three gods, they’d have separate divine essences

>>13408008
It’s not polytheistic because it believes in one God. If you categorized it as polytheistic, you’d have people who believe in many gods categorized together with people who believe in one God, making your categorization worthless.
Three gods = polytheism
One God = monotheism
Christianity is monotheistic because it teaches there is one God

>>13407962
You say this but even his Socrates was received as controversial by the Greeks and his Republic was a complete reordering of their society. But it's not worth continuing this conversation because it seems you have a classical education in philosophy which pushes Plato as a quintessential Greek even though it is dogma.

>>13408009
Tritheism, another heresy I'm afraid.

>>13408014
I know what you're saying but honestly I think the christians are just wrong about their own faith. What they actually teach is that there are three Gods and as an article of faith insist that they believe in one. It's just as absurd as Orthodox Jews insisting there were Jews enslaved in ancient Egypt. We don't have to believe their articles of faith.

>>13407822
Please leave again

>>13408003
>I don't see why those of us who don't have that faith need to also buy into the mystery
You only need to accept that a practitioner of the religion accepts the mystery in order to accept Christianity as monotheistic. The practitioner himself only believes in one god. How the practitioner gets to that conclusion is irrelevant to the classification of the religion.

>>13408015
I just don't think controversial is grounds for exclusion. In fact, when discussing schools of thought, it's usually the most controversial thinkers who define the problems and influential ideas of that school. Nietzsche was and is profoundly controversial and he attacked just about the entirety of philosophy and what might be called the western tradition and that is also why he is so important to both.

>>13408025
Reread my post. I’m contrasting trinitarianism with tritheism
>>13408038
No they teach there is one God. If they taught there were two or three or more gods, that would be polytheism.
Three gods = polytheism
One God = monotheism
Christianity is monotheistic because it teaches there is one God

>>13408045
To buttress your point: I might read a book or two from some average jerkoff, but I am not going to dedicate a serious segment of study to him or dedicate my entire study to average jerkoffs in general.

>>13408042
I can accept that.

>>13406148
There is only one God and he is my God and he will ravish all who stand against me.

>>13408040
Have sex. Your turn.

>>13407869
Stop limiting God with your sematic games lel.

>>13407967
Butterfly, your homework for today is to look up the definitions of the following words: "essence"and "hypostasis."

>>13407906
Nah the gospel of John was written specifically to convince Greeks. That is why logos is in the fist sentence.

>>13408083
>Have sex.
Are you offering?

>>13406148
>>13407967
>>13407847

>>13407849
Polytheism is the belief in one God with 10,000 aspects.

stop trying to make me beat off you fucking assholes

>>13408191
You disgust me

>>13407822
this is a christian board
please kindly fuck off

>>13408975
WRONG.

This is a LITERATURE board. YOU fuck off.

>>13408130

Confirmation that everyone on this board wants to secretly hate-fuck Butterfly.

>>13408191
/thread. Fuck Jezebel posters. I would have wrote a lengthy reply. All they do is garner off topic replies.

>>13408709
You are a puppet to your salacious thoughts and it makes you incapable of appreciating the female form. You will never be truly happy again brainlet

>>13409305
Based.

>>13409305
Seems he appreciates the female form alright

>>13408103
And yours is to finally learn how to count to three.

>>13408130
No.

>>13408045
A better example than Nietzsche would probably be Marx, someone who many people would find hard to accept as a quintessential German. Marx is an extremely important study for history, philosophy, politics, and a number of other subjects, but he is very divergent compared to the Germans that came before him and several others that came during his time. I'm not saying Plato shouldn't be studied, but to say he represents the Greeks? Nah.

>>13408191
I'm asking a metaphysical question, but you were too distracted by girls to answer the question
You're the cumbrain

>>13408015
Wasn't Logos metaphysics carried on into the Peripatetic School, Stoics, and (obviously) Neoplatonists?

>>13407869
>God is bound by math

>>13407869

You're confusing essence with persons (or hypostases) because you're an ignorant twit who hasn't actually bothered to read about trinitarianism and just assumed that you knew what the doctrine meant.

For those of you who aren't familiar with trinitarianism, there are not three separate entities each with their own, unique, Godly essence, but ONE essence or substance that is God, manifest in three hypostases (roughly equivalent to persons). What the anon described was Tritheism.

>>13407967

>Not understanding the words, definitions, or logic. Not having read the history behind the Nicene creed, nor that Trinitarianism is obvious in the gospels and Paul.

>>13408007
>three separate persons who are entirely God by themselves. How is this not three Gods?

Because there's only one essence or substance that is God, not three essences. Three persons, not three essences. This is not an arbitrary distinction. Read through the gospels and Paul and then the church fathers and you'll see there's a very clear distinction in their understanding of person and essence in that period. God only has one essence.

>>13409305
get a load of this repression

Where can I find stories about YHWH competing with the false Hebrew gods (Dagon, Molech, etc). I was always fascinated by the dynamic of polytheistic lore and I want to know more about their followers and rituals, it seems every time that they are mentioned it is only in passing, in a condescending manner.

>>13409323
>No.
Then keep your condescending smarminess to yourself. Telling an incel to have sex is retard tier. Of course he would have sex if he could. No wonder they are so angry, with people like you insisting that they accomplish the impossible.

>>13409327
>who many people would find hard to accept as a quintessential German
Marx recognized himself as an interloper and the base population saw him as an interloper as well. He is hardly an example of German nature at all.

>>13409305
I’m simply not listening to a /lit/izens advice on how to be happy.

>>13410234
God Theology is such horseshit

>>13409327
I don't think that Plato being controversial in his time has bearing on what he is considered today. He was profoundly influentual on Greek thought and in the era we're discussing in this thread, very important to Hellenization. Every thinker of any import is controversial in their time, Descartes, Spinoza, Kant, etc. The history of thought is the history of flux. A school of thought consisting only of repetitive agreement is boring and loses influence quickly.

history of god - karen armstrong

>>13406148

>>13406148

Yahweh is Man as God, Jesus is God as Man, etc. etc. etc. Christianity also addresses the "bottom-up" or "from the outside in" Theology, usually reserved for otherwise Atheist concerns, the "top-down" or "from the inside out" aspect subsuming it, rather than ignoring it.

>>13406148
There's no doubt early christian thought draw heavily from hellenistic philosophy, Paulinism is paraphrasis from ancient greek schools

>>13407869

Reducing the argument to Number is most ironic since, inasmuch as it is Numerical, general Ontology cannot produce a single Number as such, but only NumberING, that is to say a single authority, Man, quite literally making plurality.

it's a giant from the book of enoch

>>13411122
>Can't admit he (or other critics) didn't understand the concept and mistook it for Tritheism

"B-b-but it's b-bullshit! Yeah!"

>>13406148
i don't care if she reads or not, or even if she's intelligent. I just wanna put my pp in her vv.

You don't have to buy into the trinitarian mystery to consider Christians monotheistic, you just have to accept that they do. And refusing to accept that is just thinking with your personal biases instead of the relevant history or theology.

>>13411140
Plato still displays a markedly different attitude compared to the seven sages and the philosophers before him. There were a few centuries of their civilization before his time; that's a long time.

Of course, the Hellenic Logos was a rabbi all along! Thanks Bible!

>>13411836
I bet you think Heraclitus and Plato meant the same thing by the word logos.