/lit/ - Literature

>>13904798
Robert Putnam research on social cohesion book title Bowling Alone.

Notice how for channers beliefs comes before learning. First you believe in something, then you read on it.

>>13904841
That's basically everyone, they pick their beliefs by noticing which beliefs the people around them that they would like to fit in with have, and then they find arguments supporting them.

It's like 0.01% of the population that is going to take the most taboo issues of their social group and say 'let's examine the arguments for or against this and see which side makes more sense' rather than just automatically being on the one side and finding reasons to believe it. I don't think most people are consciously aware that they're doing this, they're not being dishonest, but it's very obvious.

>>13904841
Yes that is how a belief system works thank you anon

>>13904798
Can nail down the differences with data from Charles Murray's Human Accomplishment.

Good luck, we appreciate you taking a public stand.

>ethnocultural
cringe and /pol/pilled
>>13904868
>we
reddit moment

>>13904798
You're going to get BTFO.

>>13904853
>>13904856
t. cumbrains

You're supposed to change your opinions over your life based on the available information. That's called intellectual growth. if you can't do this, if you've held the same set of beliefs for years, you're just looking for narratives to support your psychological inclanations and are no better or worse than any of the people you like to think yourselves to be superior to.

>>13904888
If you actually do that you end up a highly agnostic person who alienates themselves by questioning taboos that people around them hold sacred.

>>13904841
Even if all humans had the same imformation they would still believe different things.

>>13904902
Yeah, its called being based

>>13904798
There's no point arguing this unless you control the framing.

>>13904798
Read this.

>>13904841
so you've either learned everything there is to learn or you have no opinions?

>>13904911
I'm making no moral judgment one way or the other, just saying most people don't do that, and the reason is obvious. We are profoundly social creatures, and only mildly philosophical/scientific.

>>13904882
"We" are white people defending white interests and culture on a white literature board. Who are *you*?

>>13904902
And? Standing up against jewish immigration policies is noble, and living in fear of what shabbos goyim and neoliberal pawns will think of you is most definitely not.

>>13904918
>Kauffman

>>13904944
>And? Standing up against jewish immigration policies is noble, and living in fear of what shabbos goyim and neoliberal pawns will think of you is most definitely not.
and yet I seriously doubt you'd think this if there weren't a loose community of people you identify with that also believe it.

>>13904948
The guy is only part Jewish, but he defends moderate nationalism in his book.

>>13904884
Nah. Other panel members are:
indian guy that wants an Australian points based immigration system
White guy that's tough on illegal immigration but doesnt give a fuck about much else
Black girl that views all concerns about immigration as racist (her words not mine)

>>13904902
>If you actually do that you end up a highly agnostic person who alienates themselves by questioning taboos that people around them hold sacred.
Yes, which is great. The actual nihilist is the one who allows for no change, as change gives rise to meaning. Beliefs that are unshakeable are static, isolated and ultimately dead.

OP here. The pre-made questions are relatively easy to be honest. The first one is "Do European nations have a responsibility to take care of migrants that arrive at their borders" and the second "Is it necessary for immigrants entering a new country to assimilate to the new country’s culture?". Not expecting there to be much controversy regarding being againsy the former

>>13904958
"Part jewish" is still jewish, and any jewish interpretation of nationalism will be a civic form of faux nationalism where jews and non-whites are still allowed to participate in the function and direction of white societies.

>>13904977
You're naive as fuck. Hope you get embarrassed.

>>13904990
After speaking with a lot of people at my university, you'd be surprised.

>>13904990
Pretty scared at the thought of white people standing up for themselves, aren't you rabbi? Better get used to it and keep that bag packed.

>>13904990
He hasn't said where he lived, maybe he's Polish or something

>>13904981
>"Part jewish" is still jewish
He's quarter Chinese, quarter Latino and his father is of Jewish descent. He's a literal mutt.
>any jewish interpretation of nationalism will be a civic form of faux nationalism
The author rejects civic nationalism and multiculturalism in favour of multi vocalism.

>>13904998
Stop seething, /pol/ack. I'm not a leftist, OP is just unprepared. Esoteric right-wing rhetoric about white identity might work in your echo chambers, but when you're forced to interact with the general population you will be ridiculed and shamed.

>>13905006
Multivocalism... Please. We're done with multi-everything. Jews and non-whites have countries of their own, and they can return to them willingly or be returned to them by force.

>>13904798
Weapons of Mass Migration

>>13905021
Judeo-multiracialism is incredibly unpopular and most European capitals are transparently occupied by nonwhites. The ideas are popular except among the increasing few who still accept the legitimacy of the jewish institutional establishment attempting to shame anyone who speaks out against their race-replacement program. You are the one who's out of touch.

>>13905021
OP here. I won't be taking an esoteric white identitarian viewpoint kek. I know the audience wouldn't react well to it and I'd be defamed in the university newspaper. Planning on arguing that the reason why immigration has failed to the extent it has in Western Europe is because of liberal Capitalism, which uproots people from distant lands to disbanden their local cultures and communities to just earn enough to survive. If your sole motivation for emigrating to a country is economic, then why the fuck would you want to throw away your religion, culture, and traditions? I have immense sympathy for third world immigrants in Europe that are pressured to do so and replace their identity with Western consumerism and faux civic nationalism. The solution in my opinion is to not only otherthrow capitalism, but also drastically reduce immigration; a truly multicultural world is one of ethnopluralism, not rootless cosmopolitans.

>>13904920
I have no opinions on things I'm ignorant of, simple as that.

>>13905043
>Judeo-whateveridontlike-ism

>>13904798
If anyone speaks of diversity and how strong it is, just ask them why it’s so better. Ask them if a white America would have been worse than a diverse America. If they say that slaves helped the country, then you’ve trapped them, because they see value in blacks as slaves first and foremost, simultaneously defending the practicality of slavery while also declining to present any strengths of diversity post-slavery. If they think diverse populations are superior, then, in some sense, wouldn’t that mean that in some scenarios, non-white people are superior to whites? How is this not racist? And you could go on and on about how people self-segregate (churches, schools, etc.) and how there are still racist attitudes deep in every person. Even IF racism could be unlearned, the problem would be solved with no effort if there were no contact between races in the first place. Finally, point out the blatant disparity between European countries and non-white countries in terms of white/non-white diversity. Other countries are allowed to be homogenous, but not European ones.

>>13905062
Facts. It wasn't "capitalism" who recently threatened to attack Iceland's tourism industry if they didn't accept non-whites en masse, it was jewish-run institutions like the ADL. That's who is pushing mass non-white immigration on white countries.

>>13905068
Based, thank you anon

>>13905096
Sad that I won't be able to bring up anything like this on the panel (or I'd be royally fucked)

>>13904798
Meh. You're essentially trying to prove ethno-determinism, but also take it a step further and claim that it is both true and can't be superseded by assimilation/culture shifts across generations. Tough task, so your best bet is sophist rhetoric coming from your usual racists. Not familiar with the literature, but the best liars set up their deceitful punchlines with 90% truths. Hope both balanced panellists and SJWs destroy you equally though.

>>13905097
np
>>13905106
It’s an irrelevant point, really. You’re only concerned with the effects, not why it’s been pushed on us throughout history. You should be able to convince someone that something is bad without saying that Jews are responsible for it. Only when you have fully convinced them, then you can explain why we’re in such a predicament.

>>13905113
>sophist rhetoric
Every single piece of evidence in existence supports racism. Literally nothing supports antiracism

>>13905128
Sure, go with that then.

>>13905106
Indeed, but most people aren't ready for it so I won't counter-signal your capitalism-as-culprit approach. Just make sure your arguments are moral in nature and make it about the opposing side explaining why these policies are good for us. "Us" being vague to cover your ass.

>>13905113
I believe it can be superseded by assimilation shifts across generations - albeit quite a few - but that doesn't mean that's the right policy route to take. If during those generations there are vast consequences for social cohesion, then it best be avoided. Also: superseding ethno-determinism with assimilation/culture shifts only works effectively when immigrants don't come in the quantities they currently do

>>13905133
Im not that guy, im just calling you out on being a weaselly faggot who couldn't defend his position for 2 minutes. get fucked

>>13905145
Defend? You can't possibly think that what you put forth was an argument worthy of a retort, rather than the proud, unexamined declaration of an incest baby, unhappy with les brown people?

>>13905162
All IQ tests, studies of brain size, age of puberty, twinning rates, age of molar eruption, crime rates, academic and career achievement, per capita gdp of countries, performance of ethnic minorities in multiple countries, the majority of recorded history, etc. all support racism.

Nothing supports antiracism. There is absolutely no evidence that Somalis have the same cognitive potential as Japanese people. You cannot present anything even vaguely supporting this.

You won't say shit, as none of you ever do. You may at most try to discount the huge amount of evidence supporting racism while offering literally nothing to support your assertion that the races are in fact in some way equal.

>>13905139
Well, okay then. That changes a few things. Rather than "taking an ethnocultural standpoint" you should be arguing for/against different immigration configurations, pointing to which levers should be pulled and how sliders should be adjusted based on numbers, background, etc. Ethnicity is a hard one to argue in good faith even if you know what you're talking about (ie: geneticist), much more so if you're a layman. Also dangerous to touch froma tactical standpoint if you value injecting some legitimate nuance in the minds of a few from the opposite camp more than muh ethno-determinist mantra.

>>13905175
Arguing from a "pro-racism" position is a bad tactic because you're legitimizing the enemy's terminology and rhetoric. It is a much better strategy to delegitimize the word as a fake tool that is used to shame (white) people for expressing natural, defensive, biological inclinations toward in-group preference that no amount of social engineering will ever erase.

>>13905175
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdzW5ZyyNwK9VAquKysZ9bM0tZ2IYx0Jd
There you go buddy. Give it a listen.

I'm not claiming that potential is equal, or close to it. I'm claiming that we don't know what proportions nature and nurture hold in the recipe. That is what the scientific consensus is. What I can argue for though, is that even populations with less potential for general intelligence can be harmoniously inegrated within populations with higher potential, given the right social dynamics and economic configurations. There are some no-no's of course. But you'd much rather paint me as the SJW strawman you paint everyone who isn't in full agreement with you, than engage with any nuance. Just watch the videos in the link. It'll be a much more valuable experience than my knowledge, or temperament would allow me to grant you directly.

>>13905176
Agreed, it's going to be hard for me to add anything about ethnicity without entering dangerous territory. If there's one point about ethnicity I want to make it's simply that of ethnic majoritarianism (i.e japan should be majority ethnically Japanese, England English etc). The panel is in Europe, not the U.S, so the question of ethnicity is a bit more justified.

>>13905213
>ethnic majoritarianism
You'll be prompted to prove it's desirable to begin with. And there are some historical counter-arguments against it in the case of Japan (if you were thinking to use that as a shield). A bit dated to be fair. Don't get me wrong, I disagree with you on the ethno-determinist take, just helping you bolster your arguments with some objections off the top of my head simply because I might learn something in the process.

>>13905051
>I'm going to feign concern, I'm sure nobody will see through it.
Oh man...

>>13905204
>What I can argue for though, is that even populations with less potential for general intelligence can be harmoniously inegrated within populations with higher potential, given the right social dynamics and economic configurations
Then argue for it. Are you suggesting we bring in ethnic groups because they are less intelligent? Why not just use the already less intelligent that exist among the native ethnic group?

>>13905204
OP here. I'll give the videos a listen, but luckily I'm not too concerned about IQ differences between ethnic groups. Each population has IQ distributions, and low IQ individuals don't necessarily make a society less socially cohesive given proper laws and culturally integration. What I'm more concerned about when it comes to ethnicity is simply that of ethnic self-determination, and how one's ethnicity is innately tied to one's culture and national identity. Demographic changes in Europe will mean that ethnic Germans/Danes etc will no longer be a majority, and that shift will obviously also change the culture of said country

In America, white men are shamed for voting for a white man to be president. We see easily how racial differences lead to political and social division. On CNN a black man can say that the 2016 election was a “whitewash” without any consequences. This is politics with diversity.

>>13905236
Cheers for replying to me with your own viewpoints, always helps to have someone actually argue with you rather than spout shit. I'm thinking of framing the ethnic majoritarian take within the context of the modern construction of the nation state. I understand that historically, ethnically homogeneous countries weren't as important as they are now; Empires consisted of many different ethnic groups and worked relatively well in spite of them (or, rather, their ethnic diversity wasn't the sole cause of their downfall). The difference between today's ethnic diversity and historical ones is that today's is on a much smaller geographical scale due to urbanisation and industrialisation (tedpill during panel talk??).

>>13905248
I'm not suggesting it is desirable, nor undesirable to bring in other ethnic groups. My concerns are more along the lines of what an economy can handle, what kind of skills are needed and cultural compatibility. I never claimed to understand ethnicity as a primary variable. You're the one with the burden of proof matey.
>>13905254
Right, then frame it as such. Because the "ethnic" angle sounds more tangential to genetics. Just break it off into numbers/culture/identity variables. I think starting off with the ethnic thing makes for bad optics. And I don't simply mean as a rhetorical device, but more that you run the risk of people hearing "oh, he means ethnicity is an unmovable constant and das raciss" when that's clearly not what you mean.

>>13905238
I agree with this critique in principle. While you may think you are shielding yourself from accusations of "racism" by pretending to care about the well-being of shitskin invaders, you will only come off as weak.

"White countries can't possibly be expected to take care of the world, we have to look out for ourselves."

"Israel is an ethnostate that doesn't take in refugees or even allow non jews in, why can't European countries do the same?"

>>13905341
I'll have accusations of racism regardless of what I say to be honest. Honestly just think if I take a strong anti-capitalist view against immigration it will lessen the criticism from socially progressive anti-capitalists in the audience. There will barely be anyone that has the same opinions as me in the audience, I go to a very neoliberal university which specialises in Business Management and finance, most people will side with the Indian that is pro Australian points-based immigration system.
Israel line is a good one, planning on using it if worst comes to worst.

>>13905364
You certainly will, but if you laugh those accusations off and mock the word "racism" as a slanderous term that is not a substitute for an argument, you can neutralize a lot of it and perhaps inspire a few people to take that bogus word less seriously.

An anti-capitalist approach is best too since most young white people are skeptical of consumer culture and global capitalism. Linking something they already dislike to immigration and social manipulation is a good way to win a few people over.

Wish you luck! I know it's hard to take a stand but we need good people to do just that, and there are a lot of fence-sitters and quiet supporters whom you have the chance to influence by breaking down some of these taboos.

>>13904798
Hammer home that diversity + proximity = conflict. Gain the moral high ground by being someone who is seeking to reduce ethnic conflict and increase harmony in the world by each ethnicity having a country to live their lives in. You can cite studies (https://pastebin.com/SVzdjing)) but be able to explain how when you have a different language, look, and culture from your neighbor that it's obvious that social cohesion goes down. Point out that diversity hasn't worked by citing rising migrant crime and ethnic tension in Europe (e.g. 'how many grenade attacks were there in sweden before the refugee crisis?'). Point out how to the current day that people self segregate and vote as an ethnic bloc (>>13905285). If they are going to self segregate and vote as an ethnic block, they might as well do it in their own countries and have self determination.

>>13905364
The more they assimilate, aren't they abandoning the beautiful vibrant culture of their ancestors for the new country? All the while the new country will abandon their ways in order to try to accommodate the newcomers. The result is a cultural greying where the only things people have in common is netflix and consumerism. They're going to accuse you of racism, but if you have the moral high ground as someone trying to preserve the cultural diversity of the world and racial harmony, then you can easily say 'i'm preventing racial conflict and preserving everyone's culture, if this is racist then your word is meaningless'. Don't get in the weeds too much with the racist accusations since it's subjective and undefined, and that's by design.

>>13905459
You literally sound like you have the exact same views as me on immigration. Based anon
-op

>>13905459
>how many grenade attacks were there in sweden before the refugee crisis?
Don't do this. All it takes is one death metal fan/pol memer in the crowd to ask "have you never heard of Varg Vikenes?" And then you're stuck arguing that Norway was better before the Christians and that it's not currently a centre for studying congenital founder problems from inbreeding.
Tl:dr- Stick away from blowing shit up in Scandinavia, they had kids blowing shit up from boredom all through the 90s

>>13905641
Pretty dumb comparison and assumptions here. The multiracial disaster in Sweden is a winner in every way.

>>13904958
>part
>moderate
do you see the problem?

>>13904798
Literally just talk about the Yugoslav wars or every genocide of the 20th century. Diversity leads to more conflict. More conflict leads chaos. Chaos is bad. There are a few studies from Sweden on diversity iirc

>>13905715
So you never heard of Vikernes? How? He not only started the argument you're trying to make he got arrested for murdering and burning down churches and having 300lb of explosives "just in case" and has released many seminal albums in the genre. You should argue against the American influence in Sweden which led to their sjws kidnapping rape victims on an international drug taking binge in order to convince them that satanism as feared by US pearl clutchers was a thing and responsible for rape.

>>13906036
Vikernes and his shenanigans doesn't compare to swedish gang violence.

>>13904798
America is at fault for fucking up South America and whatever else they get their fat, imperialist hands on. A lot of immigration is due to climate change too.

>>13906106
Of course not. Vikernes was an actual terroristic force which caused infrastructural damage and loss of life in far greater proportion and real size.

>>13906273
vikernes killed one guy, gang violence is a much bigger deal. If you want an example of white domestic terrorism in Scandiland Breivik is who you should use, he literally more than doubled the homicide rate that year in Norway

>>13906273
This is obviously not the case, why are you being dishonest?

>>13904798
You can read pic related, it's pretty short.

>>13906291
And most of the ideas he's spouting are Varg's. Varg was complaining about Muslims before there was an immigrant crisis. If you try to use Breivik without mentioning Varg, then you miss out Varg's arrest in France was basically because he had links to Breivik through founding the neonazi movement Breivik supported. It's like saying binLaden's kids are a much bigger deal than Osama.
>>13906436
Take it up with the French and Norwegians, they're the ones who arrested him for it.

>>13906581
I am Norwegian. That's why I know that it's not honest to compare a lone small cultural community that existed 20 years ago and failed to reproduce to a growing minority population who feel hostility to their host nation with high birth rates.

The black metal community burned a few churches and killed less than 5 people. There have been like 10+ killings in Stockholm this year alone.

>>13906581
Breivik would have existed with or without Varg. Did you even read the guy's manifesto? It's the exact same thing the far right are saying everywhere on earth that white countries are getting lots of problem immigrants.

>>13906630
>failed to reproduce to a growing minority population who feel hostility to their host nation with high birth rates.
Varg didn't fail to reproduce. He's still memed, and more renowned, especially among those who consider immigration in Scandinavia to be a problem.
>>13906665
Only Varg started talking about those things as problems in Norway before the current wave of memers with zero memory hopped on.
10+ is kind of low for Stockholm, so it seems the downturn in gang violence there that last year saw is continuing. It looks like you're arguing to kick out the Hell's Angels, an American influence.

>>13904977
>Do European nations have a responsibility to take care of migrants that arrive at their borders
This is an incredibly loaded question and it's going to be used to harangue you as a heretic for the entire duration of the "debate".

>>13905051
>If your sole motivation for emigrating to a country is economic, then why the fuck would you want to throw away your religion, culture, and traditions?
Because they don't (think they) will. They'll continue being Somalis or whatever, they'll just get paid money courtesy of the local tax cattle to do it and get a slap on the wrist when they decide to commit what would be capital crimes in their homeland.

>I have immense sympathy for third world immigrants in Europe that are pressured to do so and replace their identity with Western consumerism and faux civic nationalism.
They aren't pressured to do any of this, they just aren't. Seriously, I don't know where you live (country would be enough) but it is quite likely actually illegal for someone to say in public that "people from X should behave more like real <natives>".

>The solution in my opinion is to not only otherthrow capitalism, but also drastically reduce immigration; a truly multicultural world is one of ethnopluralism, not rootless cosmopolitans.
haha ok nevermind, they're just bringing you in to laugh at you.

>>13906860
>Because they don't (think they) will. They'll continue being Somalis or whatever, they'll just get paid money courtesy of the local tax cattle to do it and get a slap on the wrist when they decide to commit what would be capital crimes in their homeland.
Exactly my point?
They aren't pressured to do any of this, they just aren't. Seriously, I don't know where you live (country would be enough) but it is quite likely actually illegal for someone to say in public that "people from X should behave more like real <natives>".
I'm originally from Denmark, though the panel won't be there. I can assure you that it is extremely expected that immigrants adopt Danish customs/traditions/culture. It's pressured and incentivised by the government. Practically the whole process of obtaining citizenship is based upon doing so.
>haha ok nevermind, they're just bringing you in to laugh at you.
Shlomo is mad at the "rootless cosmopolitan" take?

>>13906831
Luckily the moderator is my roommate (who is a conservative, albeit a liberal one) so I can get him to rephrase it for the talk

>>13904944
No such thing as "white culture". Thats a spook.

>>13907124
Assuming this is about Europe and not the U.S, replace "white" with English/Danish/French etc.

>>13907124
Dilate, stupid tranny

>>13904958
>moderate
Convenient.