/lit/ - Literature

why?

okay

It won't get you laid.

>>1446012
What could get OP laid?

I'll fight you with my Che Guevara shirt

and all of the rest were killed by capitalism.

>>1446016
rohypnol

>>1446016

Prison?

most people would just think you an idiot

some would tell you were an idiot

other idiots may agree with the shirt

all in all a zero sum game

my ex roommate would wear that shirt.
my ex roommate was a total faggot and economics major who read "not just a carpenter" everyday while listening to the beatles

>I'm thinking of buying this and walking around my university campus while wearing it.

Its a post-modern critique of phallocentric consumerism

>>1446017

>>1446005
>implying capitalism never killed anyone
Inb4 Fascists were socialists.

>>1446060
I would laugh at the shirt because it would troll the shit out of commies.

>>1446085
I think of him as a symbol of rebellion and fighting for your beliefs. so your image has no effect on my liking him

>>1446098
I see Hitler as a symbol of rebellion and fighting for your beliefs. Anyone who thinks I am anti-semetic for this is a fascist.

>>1446096
Yeah, man, all those commies! There's so many commies! They're like...everywhere man.

Wait, where are we again? 30 years ago in Poland? No.

Oh. Nevermind.

>>1446085
Don't forget a dog killer for sport, failed doctor, and material item loving fuck. I guess riding the coat tails of Castro gets you on posters and t-shirts.

>>1446098
This

Read:
>>1446111

Thank you.

Also, what are you 15?

>>1446111
good for you. But they were different people who fought for different things

>>1446111
>>1446143
samefag backin up the tripfag

>>1446145
That's right and they were both awful, awful people.
If that shouldn't have any bearing on whether someone likes Che then it shouldn't have any bearing on whether someone likes Hitler.

>>1446152
it doesn't so what is your point?

>>1446151
incorrect
>>1446111
>>1446152
were me

>>1446157
Nothing more than that thinking Che was great for his positive actions is equivalent to thinking Hitler was great for his! I love Fanta, Volkswagens and the Autobahn. Not so much with genocide and bigotry but everyone has their little foibles!

I suppose everyone forgets that che was trying to push out the corporation supported tyrant batista who was killing the cuban people and practically enslaving them. What is not to like again? he had racial prejudices? so did a lot of the western world at that time and they also didn't like gays so why do we blame him for having beliefs that fit the time period?
>fuck capitalist. unless you are in the top 1% you are a slave

incredibly stupid

>>1446192
And they tried to tell me there were no commies. Let the butthurt flow.

>>1446201
just trying to show you the light. I'm not a communist in the marx sense but if you read Sir Thomas More's Utopia you'll have a closer approximation of what I think. Personal property and the capitalist mindset are all detrimental to human rights and happiness

>>1446192
he literally murdered gays and farmers who tried to leave his army to feed their families

>>1446211
>Personal property and the capitalist mindset are all detrimental to human rights and happiness

Can I masturbate on that computer you are using and shit on that carpet in the house you live in? It's not like you own it man, stop infringing on my rights.

>>1446222
This is a fallacy--the desires you expressed are implicit of a sense of "property" e.g. by doing that sort of thing to anon's possessions you

>>1446220
his "army" was tiny so losing anyone would be a problem so like any other army ever he had a death penalty for deserters. good job though smearing him for a common practice

>>1446236
>everyone's doing it so it's OK!

>>1446222
Oh look, little Timmy's allowed on the computer again.

>>1446211

>capitalist mindset are all detrimental to human rights and happiness

The problem with capitalism is that it places economic concerns above all other things. Communism does the same thing. They are two sides of the same coin.

>>1446243
All is fair in love and war.

>>1446222
property is only one particular way of organizing material distribution among people. denial of property system does not then deny the need for regulated behavior in that area of life.

the most common argument for capitalist style property rights is that they facilitate market activity by enabling pricing and also incentivize economic production. however, this still is an instrumentalist argument and does not preclude altering any particular conception of property relations.

>>1446231
no it isn't
shitting on a carpet presupposes nothing
although asking if you can shit on a carpet does, so best to just do it without saying anything to avoid circularity

>>1446251
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye.

>>1446248
I think that's a nice sounding, but so poorly defined as to be meaningless, argument. What do you mean by economic concerns?

>>1446222
exactly what I am saying. you would destroy something someone else has because you lay claim to it since you think they don't own it. while a more mature out look would be that everyone should work to create and then once there are items they can be distributed to the masses who won't own them but would care for and use them. what is the point of theft when everyone has the opportunity to get what they need and want? we have no sense of society and no sense of our ability to all live in luxury because our capitalism based society value individualism and inequality

>>1446265

>What do you mean by economic concerns?
Labour, capital, etc. as defined by these modern ideologies. You would deny the central role of money in these systems?

>>1446231
You saying I can't poop and masturbate on the things I want to poop and masturbate on?

I knew this kid in high school. Every day he would come in and spout off about communism. He told everyone how his dad taught him that "commies" would come to US and take everything. His dad also told him that he needed to have plenty of arms on hand just in case those commies came.

The funny part about this story is that this kid was white trash and lived in a shithole that was 4 wheels short of a mobile home. His father was a meth addict, lived off welfare and drove some 30 year old pickup he called "old bertha". Between the two rednecks (mother ran off), the two had about $100 net worth.

>>1446320

such is life in 'merika

>>1446320
isn't it sad that the people (sheep) that would benefit most from a communist society are against it without even considering it

>>1446338
Isn't it sad that the so-called "land of the free" always has elections between "this guy" and "that guy."

>>1446290
No. But money is just a metaphor. It don't mean nothing.

>>1446338

Nobody benefits from a communist society in the long run, only it's leaders. Look at history.
Capitalism has it's sharp edges, but to think communism is a reasonable alternative is just ridiculous.

>socialist eurofag btw.

>>1446394
You can make the exact same argument for capitalism.

>>1446394

>Communism
>leaders

>>1446372
Live without any and see how your theory pans out.

>>1446338
Fuck me, Anti-Semitic much?

You're not helping....

>>1446438

Sup JIDF

Hey guys, just so you know, communism and capitalism have the same end goals!

If you think I'm trolling, you're a damn idiot who can't tell a Marxist from a Stalinist!

>>1446432
It is a metaphor guy. It's also possible to live without money. Subsidence farming for example.

Now food and water is something you need.

>>1446464

And what exactly are those end goals?

Authoritarian communism is but one school of communism. To paint all communists with the same brush, especially those who support stateless forms of communism (anarcho-communists and to some extent collectivist anarchists) is retarded.

You could also make the argument that the communism practiced by different states in the 20th century was actually fascism.

>>1446490
A world where people have sovereignty over what they produce and are not coerced into producing for another or giving up what they've earned.

The difference mostly comes down to how you define "coerce" and where you see coercion most prevalent.

>>1446527

But... capitalism depends on producing for others. That's kind of how it works.

If I make wine, I'm mostly making wine for others, so I can exchange my surplus wine for the stuff I need. I don't make wine and also grow corn, because the guy who already grows corn is probably better at it, and he wants wine.

You might say I'm not 'coerced' into selling him my wine, but I've got a lot of it, and I want some corn.

>>1446545
Well that's not really the issue. It comes down more to the conditions in which and by which people work.
In both the capitalist and the communist ideal, you exchange wine for corn as equals, entering into a agreement with full knowledge. The Marxist says what keeps that from happening is that the wine guy has more money and a social system behind him that forces the corn guy to trade at a disadvantage. The capitalist (or libertarian, at least) says that this doesn't happen because of the myriad ways the state inhibits trade, for various reasons. Both views want the same thing, they just have two different explanations for why it doesn't happen.

>>1446590

>In both the capitalist and the communist ideal, you exchange wine for corn as equals, entering into a agreement with full knowledge.

But if it's an equal exchange, there's no profit. If there's no profit, there's no capitalism.

Why do people need t-shirts to spread a message?

If you want to spread your opinion do it in the right place/way, in the right time to the right people, if you have something interesting to say you'll probably have an audience.

>>1446621

This is why I carry a bullhorn with me wherever I go.

>>1446611
What? No, there is profit. Capitalism looks at "wealth" rather than goods, wealth being the end use or enjoyment out of those goods. That's why there's all that talk about there not being a zero-sum game. By trading wine you don't want for corn you do, your wealth goes up. Same goes for the corn guy.

The system you're talking about pretty much relies on oppression and imperialism. That was the conception of capitalism that Marx was responding to.

Leftist here.

I'd be mad if I though communism was worth defending. Well done, OP.

>>1446638

You're going to have to excuse my Marxist sensibilities.

When you say wealth, I think use-values, and we seem to be in agreement there.

But wealth and surplus-value (profit, essentially) are different things. And if we're exchanging equal value goods, there can't be profit, just as if I gave you five dollars and you gave me five dollars in exchange, neither of us have profited.

You seem to be describing the ideal capitalist system as just an old-style system of pure barter. Am I mistaken here? And if I'm not, that begs the question: Why did we move out of the pure barter system in the first place?

>>1446686
inb4 "Jews"

>>1446686
I'm not going to argue as to what works; as I don't really have any idea (nominally I'm a democratic socialist, if only because libertarians haven't provided an explanation or solution to violent repression,) but most of the advocates of the free market I've heard generally don't assume that value is something fundamental, that five dollars is worth anything more than it can buy. Money is useful in that it serves as a medium for the exchange of goods, essentially vouchers for time and effort spent. Again, in an ideal capitalist situation people get paid an amount that can be converted into a fitting compensation.

I should stop speaking for free market advocates, though. I realize that a recounting of what I've heard from friends from that particular position probably isn't sufficient for decent discussion.

No rational person believes in marxism/communism.

>>1446804
Christopher Hitchens would disagree with you. Though he may not be a communist, he is most certainly a Marxist.

I don't like communism because I like having my own shit.

It was bad enough growing up in a house of 3000000000000000000000000000000000 babies and siblings, I seriously don't want that fucker next door blaming me for breaking the communal car.

>>1446804
>He thinks that rational = good!
laughinggirls.tiff

>>1446815
um who cares

>>1446854
He's a pretty smart guy. Takes a lot of care with his opinions. Doesn't seem to lie to himself. I figure if a guy like Hitchens is a Marxist, it can't be all bullshit.

>>1446865
I dunno, he might just be an idealist. One of my friends is an idealist, he wishes for fullblown communism. Me, I just wish there was more support for the poor sometimes, but not being able to work for something important that wasn't everyone else would be boooooooooring.

>>1446895
Whatever. This thread's been repurposed.