/lit/ - Literature

>>14539678
>It seems incredibly dishonest to me and is making me seriously question my faith...
The whole of the religion is full of absurdities. Don't lobotomize yourself with faith in it.

>>14539678
>today
kek

>>14539678
>historical context, establishing of known rules, and world-building
>not important
Stop concern trolling. You killed a thread for this.

>>14539695
>boy, everyone is stupid except for me
Post physique. Show everyone the fruits of your zealous atheism.

>>14539678
not only that, Jesus didn't fulfill any of the messianic prophecies. no world peace, no third temple etc

>>14539678
>Why do Christians today pretend that the Old Testament somehow supports the incarnation of Jesus Christ as the Son of God?
Because Isaiah literally talks about him all throughout his book
>All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

>>14539706
>>historical context, establishing of known rules, and world-building
>not important
I don't deny its importance. I'm just asking for some honesty in not trying to read prophecies about Christ into places where it clearly doesn't belong. I saw some huy trying to count the number of times "God" appears in the Shema Israel prayer to prove the Trinity. This is basically what most Christians do when I ask them about the Old Testament. Same with pastors I know personally. It's literally and unironically making me have a crisis right now.

>>14539711
atheism is not implied by my post, nice try

>>14539732
>I don't deny its importance.
Then why are you here?
Of course zealots will shore up their faith with everything they can find, even if it's shoddy and incompatible material. You should know this by now. Why does it unduly concern you?

>>14539735
That post isn't a posted picture of your physique or a correction that states your religious beliefs, so for the time being I'm not going to reply to you as if you're a real person.

>>14539732
Just remember, according to Christianity your current crisis has no validity. The reason you are having a crisis is because you are "sinful" and also because an entity called the "Devil" is tempting you with bad thoughts. This is the ideology you are contending with. That's what they believe.

>>14539738
>Then why are you here?
Because now, to me, my Faith seems like a patchwork of incoherent ideas on a foundation (OT) which doesn't even support it. I unironically cried today thinking about this and am writing this now that I've cooled down.

>>14539732
if you read the hewbrew scriptures, you would know that most of the claims that Christianity make is false, the messiah was never supposed to be sacrificed nor is he divine/God

>>14539742
I don't get the physique thing. Are you saying I'm fat? I'm 115 pounds skelly, and I don't work out. What does that have to do with anything though? Also I'm not an atheist.

>>14539743
>he has never read the Bible
>he never will read the Bible
>he goes online, enters threads that he does not like, in order to shit-talk a faith he is only incrementally familiar with, for reasons he himself is not entirely sure of
I cordially invite you to kill yourself.

>>14539743
>The reason you are having a crisis is because you are "sinful" and also because an entity called the "Devil" is tempting you with bad thoughts.
Read Job

>>14539748
That post isn't a correction that states your actual religious beliefs outright, so for the time being I'm not going to reply to you as if you're a real person.

>>14539678
>It seems incredibly dishonest to me and is making me seriously question my faith...
Good. Don't let pic related become you. Christianity was borne out of a desire for hippyism and stopping animal sacrifice.

>>14539747
>if you read the up until fairly recently oral and largely sour grapes Hebrew scriptures, you'll find a bunch of copeposts and rationalizations written by salty, God-forsaken Jews
water is wet

>>14539758
>>14539753
I've read the Bible and classical theology like Augustine, Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory Palamas, etc. That's literally what Christianity believes. If you don't believe in the Devil and that bad thoughts are partly a temptation from him and partly from sinful nature, how are you even Christian. Maybe you're protestant, so I'm less familiar with what retarded things you believe because I didn't spend much time on Protestantism.

>>14539743
>The reason you are having a crisis is because you are "sinful" and also because an entity called the "Devil" is tempting you with bad thoughts.
This is unironically what my pastor told me in a very roundabout way when I confided in him.
>>14539763
I think it has a very good and true message even without that. But now that my foundation has been shattered I can't even think about it properly anymore.

>>14539762
I'm not religious.

>>14539766
>fairly recent
really nigger? what about the dead sea scrolls?

>>14539771
>This is unironically what my pastor told me in a very roundabout way when I confided in him.
And yet the other posters called me a liar. This is standard Christianity. Don't know what Church you are with, but that is standard apostolic Christian belief. If you question your faith you are being tempted by the Devil. I think they are being disingenuous or are fake internert meme christians.

>>14539778
>muh dead sea scrolls
Cope. There is a serious scientific possibility that they were both either faked or fake to begin with.

>>14539763
Basedjak posters should be shot.
>>14539775
So an atheist, just a high-functioning atheist.
>>14539771
>replying in earnest to a basedjak-poster
I appreciate your unspoken confirmation that this thread is, in fact, concern trolling.

>>14539789
so, all this evidence and proof that the chrisitan doctrines are false is just fake? while christianity is true because... paul said so?

>>14539795
Atheism is disbelief in theos, a god. I don't disbelieve in "higher beings", so I'm not an atheist.

>>14539725
>no world peace
that comes at the end of time
>no third temple
the third temple is himself

>>14539799
Cope. Paul was a Pharisee and an actual learned Rabbi who would know that Jesus Christ fullfilled numerous Messianic prophecies and rebuilt the Third Temple in his sacrifice.

>>14539732
>>14539678
read The Crucified Rabbi.
Jer 23:5-6a - Descendant of David - Lk 3:23-31
Jer 23:5-6b - The Messiah would be God - Jn 13:13
Jer 23:5-6c - The Messiah will be both God and man - 1 Tim 3:16
Jer 31:22 - Born of a virgin - Mt 1:18-20
Jer 31:31 - The Messiah would be the new covenant - Mt 26:28
Jer 33:14-15 - Descendant of David - Lk 3:23-31
Ezek 17:22-24 - Descendant of David - Lk 3:23-31
Ezek 34:23-24 - Descendant of David - Mt 1:1
Dan 7:13-14a - He would ascend into heaven - Acts 1:9-11
Dan 7:13-14b - Highly exalted - Eph 1:20-22
Dan 7:13-14c - His dominion would be everlasting - Lk 1:31-33
Dan 7:23 - Messiah born during rule of 4th Gentile kingdom (i.e. during Roman rule) - Lk 2:1
Dan 9:24a - He makes an end to sins - Gal 1:3-5
Dan 9:24b - He would be holy - Lk 1:35
Dan 9:25 - Announced to his people 483 years, to the exact day, after the decree to rebuild
Jerusalem - Jn 12:12-13
Dan 9:26a - Messiah murdered - Mt 27:35
Dan 9:26b - Died for the sins of the world - Heb 2:9
Dan 9:26c - Killed before destruction of the Temple - Mt 27:50-51
Dan 10:5-6 - Messiah in a glorified state - Rev 1:13-16
Hos 13:14 - He would defeat death - 1 Cor 15:55-57
Joel 2:32 - Offer salvation to all mankind - Rom 10:12-13
Mic 5:2a - Born in Bethlehem - Mt 2:1-2
Mic 5:2b - God’s servant - Jn 15:10
Mic 5:2c - He is eternally preexistent - Jn 8:58
Hag 2:6-9 - He would visit the second Temple - Lk 2:27-32
just a sampling of the 300 prophecies in the appendix. easy to find a free copy online.

>>14539807
how could he? the entire Hebrew scriptures from the time of the dead sea scrolls were fake, right?

>>14539806
no, again, read the tanakh, world peace comes with the time of the messiah, also the knowledge of God covers the world as water covers the sea, which also was not fulfilled

>>14539817
>arguing with multiple people as if they're the same person and calling this conjoined mass of people you're arguing with a schizo
Go fuck yourself you intellectually dishonest waste of flesh and blood

>>14539769
Well I guess you need to read it again
That is part of it, not all of it. Job discusses bad things happening to good people. Elihu goes on a rant about it. You cant understand why God does what he does. Death of a loved one, losing your job. Not necessarily a result of sin, but some other reason that you may never know or begin to understand
Read
It
Again

>>14539821
ahem no arguments there, sweetie, keep seething christcuck :^)

>>14539824
I never said anything about "bad things happening". I referred to an inner crisis of doubting your fate. The standard Christian interpretation of that is that it is a temptation from the Devil or the result of your sinful nature.

>>14539829
The only argument you deserve is a bullet.

>>14539839
you're just hurting your cause, retard. you can't defend your false messiah, so you e-threat like the retarded fag that you are

>>14539846
Who in this thread will be hurt by the verifiably factual statement that you would be better off dead? Whose faith will falter at that? Better men than I have done much, much worse to people like you for exactly the same reason.

>>14539861
again, none of the arguments stated above were refuted, answer the question, you braindead dumbass
>>14539817
>>14539817
>>14539817
>>14539817

>>14539818
>>14539806
Take a read.

>>14539861
Your faith falters. Wrath is among the deadly sins. Is your soul any more healed after making a fool of yourself, someone who can't defend his faith and can only insult? Argue for Christ or begone.

>>14539873
Christianity is built on the claim that the messiah in the Hebrew scriptures has arrived, christianity derives its legitimization from judaism, not the other way around. I ask you to read the tanakh, specifically the books and chapters that talk about the messiah, and you will find the severe contradictions that Christianity has fallen into

>>14539873
Why? You have made up your mind. To argue with you would be to act as if your claims are legitimate- like some seething council of kikes' apocryphal cope-post has any theological validity. Instead, I will hate you with perfect hatred, and content myself that eventually you will starve, or be killed. Either will do.

>>14539906
> seething council of kikes
yes but its not some council of kikes, retard. its the old testament, you can't prove through logic that your faith is true and so instead throw tantrums,

>>14539897
>a recommendation but not a response to the image
I've read 3/4ths of the OT and found all of it to only strengthen my faith in Christ.

>>14539906
I'm not the one you hate, would a Jew argue that Christ is the Messiah? You are so blind you didn't even recognize a different poster who was also a Christian, you just impulsively responded, frothing at the fucking mouth.
Read what you just said, how do you not think that you are spiritually ill? If a Jew is obstinate, and not really listening, just ignore him, go talk to someone else, or do something else for a while and come back to the thread. You don't need to poison yourself with this filth that comes out of your heart and distances you from God.

>>14539931
>OT
He said the tanakh, not the biased English translations made by Hebrew-illiterates.

>>14539931
throughout this thread no one refuted what has been previously, but I'll repeat my question anyways. how do reconcile the fact that in the tanakh, there isn't a single passage that says the messiah will be divine or God? just answer this question

>>14539926
>literally a modern interpretation "some rabbis concluded" of Zechariah- and a "wait no that's not the real messiah yet dood" at that
>dude you must be talking shit about Zechariah
Dumbass.
>>14539946
Sure, but first, find me a single passage in the Tanakh that actually denies that the messiah could be divine or an incarnate God.

The Old Testament isn't even about God. It's a mythologized history of the Jewish nation containing material corruptions of the truth and a "God" that is wicked and covetous like those of the Greeks. If the god described within is intended to be the true God, then the text is slanderous. Jesus came to teach us the truth and overturn the slanderous things. When he said he didn't come to overturn Mosaic law, what he meant is that he didn't come to overturn the customs and society of the Jews entirely and make them conduct everything about themselves differently. If Christ were to come to early modern Germans, he would say that he had come to correct their misconceptions of the nature of God and salvation rather than to take away their beer, pork sausages, marriage rites, and legal traditions. Christ came to deliver us from the corruptions of the material world and show us the truth of God and our salvation in the world of the immaterial.

>>14539955
This is, frankly, the most reasonable take. I still don't buy it, but it makes more sense than mainstream Christianity

>>14539955
>The Old Testament isn't even about God.

>>14539953
its the core foundation of Judaism, that God is one and that there is nothing like him in creation.

“God is not a man that He should lie, nor a mortal that He should change His mind.”
(Numbers 23:19)

>>14539972
>look, this passage that explains God's immunity to the failures of man actually means that God would never incarnate as a man
Brainlet.

>>14539987
If you read the tanakh you would know that messiah isn't divine because thats not his Job, the messiah is simply a human man who would bring peace to the world and restore israel. its simple, I'll throw it back at you, find a passage from the tanakh that says the messiah will be divine/God

>>14540001
Cyrus the Great is the true Messiah

>>14539962
You're still going to be saved, though. Everybody is saved; hell is the suffering of living a life in the material world separate from the immaterial world of the forms where God dwells with all of the saved. The only pain we shall feel after death is the pain of acknowledging and sloughing off our material sins before we are reborn in the Pure Land.
>inb4 then why do the right thing ever
Doing the right thing is right and if you need to be threatened with eternal suffering to get you to do the right thing, then you need help. God is not all powerful and is often incapable of reaching out to us except through messengers like Christ and Shakyamuni or through occasional miracles, but He is omniscient and omnibenevolent. He knows the good inside you and loves you no matter how many mistakes you may make and how many times you may fall. The relationship between you and God is the most important of the filial relationships and to do the right thing is the highest expression of filial piety.
>>14539964
What have I said wrong? I would like to know in case I have made a mistake and need to revise my position.

>>14540010
based and logically consistent beliefs

>>14540001
>evades the question
>cannot verify his interpretation with a single quote
Kike-cope.

>>14540029
am I the one who's been evading questions this entire thread? again, read the tanakh. there isn't a single passage that says the messiah will be divine, you would think God will mention something important like that

>>14540047
>an event foretold, by God, hundreds of years (or thousands of years, in your paradigm) in advance, will have nothing to do with divinity and will be purely a matter of men
What in Heaven's name are you going on about?

>>14540055
And if a king shall arise from among the House of David, studying Torah and occupied with commandments like his father David, according to the written and oral Torah, and he will impel all of Israel to follow it and to strengthen breaches in its observance, and will fight God's wars, this one is to be treated as if he were the anointed one. If he succeeded and built the Holy Temple in its proper place and gathered the dispersed ones of Israel together, this is indeed the anointed one for certain, and he will mend the entire world to worship the Lord together, as it is stated: "For then I shall turn for the nations a clear tongue, so that they will all proclaim the Name of the Lord, and to worship Him with a united resolve (Zephaniah 3:9)."[29]

> and will fight God's wars
> he will mend the entire world to worship the Lord together
the messiah is a servant of God, not God himself. you will not find a single verse in the tanakh that claims the messiah to be divine. its a chrisitian perversion, this entire thread has been you giving half assed arguments with no proof from the hebrew scriptures

>>14539678

>>14540010
>>14539955
wierdo buddhist marcionite please stop

>>14540077
Yes, that is the second part of the prophecy. Your point?
>Jesus of Nazareth addresses God as a separate individual, and repeatedly clarifies that He is on Earth to do God's will due to God's partitioned nature at the time
>this is proof that He isn't God
Absolutely wacky theological gymnastics, my Pharisaical friend.

>>14540090
lmao, no point in arguing with you, I can ask for proof from your side all day and you wouldn't give me any, simple because there isn't any. and deep down you probably know that too

>>14540087
Why? What is weird about what I say?

>>14540085
>No.
kek

>>14540100
>y-you think I'm right deep down
The proof is plain in the Messiah- the one who even now you deny. There is no proof outside of Him that will satisfy you, because you are a bottomless pit.

>>14540102
he's a fake internet meme christian. so he holds on to traditional apostolic dogma with disdain for everything else because it looks "cool" to him. he's trying to differentiate himself from flabby boomers who don't believe in anything, so he pretends to believe things on the internet

>>14540110
>yeah bruh, its true because its true, not because of scriptural proof or evidence
pathetic

>>14540085
That's not YHWH on the pic, it's a retarded Christcuck onions-tier idol.

>>14540126
>you gotta have epic logic and facts bro, shapiro quest
For once in your miserable life, have faith.

>>14540139
hmm, why have faith in your religion? especially if you won't provide any evidence? might as well have faith in buddhism or scientology

>>14539728
Reminder that before the Dead Sea Scrolls were found many (((Concerned Scholars))) held that the Christians had altered Isaiah.

>>14540150
>dude all religions are the same bro
You could not be more transparent in the fact that you are concern trolling in bad faith.

>>14540156
>I will not provide any verse or proof from the tanakh to back my claim for Jesus's messiah-hood
>you have to have some faith, bruhhh

>>14540171
>when argument X fails, return to argument Y. force will suffice in the absence of legitimacy
OK kike

>>14540176
>I have no proof or evidence
>I'll just call him a kike
Christianity in a nutshell

>>14540177
>drops the act when denied the opportunity to concern troll in bad faith

>>14540176
>OK kike
>(Numbers 24:9) Whoever blesses Israel will be blessed, And whoever curses Israel will be cursed.

>>14539728
OP here, haven't read Isaiah in depth yet. Can you demonstrate beyond any doubt that it's talking about him?

>>14540102
Nothing that you said is orthodox Christianity. It's all wierd heterodox shit like universalism and Marcionist rejection of the OT.

>>14540185
>Israel doesn't mean the nation of God, the people who follow God's teachings, no, it means le funny fake country invented by pharisees and named after this concept in an attempt to bootstrap God's love
OK, kike.

>>14540150
>might as well have faith in Buddhism
Why not? Pure Land Buddhism is compatible with the teachings of Christ.
>or scientology
No, that one is worse than "transhumanist" "singularity" worship.

>>14540195
>>Israel doesn't mean the nation of God, the people who follow God's teachings
How do you know that that poster isn't a Jew who follows God's teaching as layed out in what you call the Old Testament?

>>14540198
>Pure Land Buddhism
I prefer Dark Buddhism myself.

>>14540010
>God is not all powerful
Citation needed.

>>14540205
>that pic
sounds like "How to be an ADVANCED Sociopath: the book". Like regular sociopathy isn't enough, you need to bolster it with special eastern techniques lol

>>14540205
fucking BASED

>>14540201
>trying to obfuscate the subject by muddling contemporary man's ceremonial law with divine and everlasting moral law
Only way you could be more of a Jew would be if I could see your nose pressing out against the surface of my computer screen.

>>14540205
>I prefer Dark Buddhism myself.

>>14540212
Problem of evil. I can't just hand-wave it away like Boethius. I can understand why a God who is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent might let some suffering occur; it builds character and gives perspective. How could such a God allow something as evil and filthy as the sexual abuse of children to occur?

>>14540233
Though I have no proof of this, I believe the existence of people, creatures, conditions and situations that cause unbearable suffering are the metaphysical consequences of a system that allows mankind to have free will.

>>14540205
>Integrating Zen Buddhism and Objectivism

>>14540233
>sexual abuse of children does not build character and give perspective
Citation needed.
>suffering
Meaningless libtard humanist notion.

>>14540233
>How could such a God allow something as evil and filthy as the sexual abuse of children to occur?
So the standard Anglo-Protestant response? How predictable... Sometimes I feel omniscient myself when engaging in such conversation.

>>14540253
How is that Anglo? That's Voltaire in a nutshell

2 hours later and christcucks still provided no arguments, well I guess they admitted defeat

>why don't Christians compromise and undermine their beliefs because I don't understand scripture
Humm not sure why

>>14540261
>Voltaire was a supporter of animal rights and was a vegetarian.
Anglo garbage.

>>14540271
Please show us how Jesus was foreshadowed in the OT.

>>14540270
>why will nobody wrestle me in this feces-filled pit? clearly they are my inferiors in the respectable and totally worthwhile sport of shit wrestling
Kike

>>14540270
I'm still typing mine actually.

>>14540280
you call a discussion about your christ a feces filled pit? hmmm, maybe you're the kike all along

>>14540244
The benefits of free will do not outweigh the evil and depravity of the sexual abuse of children. If God were omnipotent in addition to omniscient and omnibenevolent and the existence of such evils is a necessary consequence of free will, why would he not step in in such extreme situations? Why would child molesters not miraculously be struck down or incapable of carrying out their evil? If God were omnipotent, He would be capable of such things and His doing such things would not upset a system in which mankind have free will.
>>14540248
Sexual abuse of children only damages them for life. This is a fact. It has been observed throughout history to be true and has been confirmed by every child psychologist, pediatrician, and schoolteacher who isn't a pedophile or pedophile apologist. Besides that, children are the most innocent of all humans. This is why all civilized peoples regard their abuse as particularly horrendous. I'm not a liberal humanist, either.

>>14540286
>The benefits of free will do not outweigh the evil and depravity of the sexual abuse of children.
Citation needed.

>>14540285
>your christ
Yes, this non-discussion with a sly, simpering kike who refuses to respect Jesus Christ is definitely comparable to something noble and not disgusting. Die.
>>14540286
If men were struck down for sinning, men would quickly stop sinning, and it would prove nothing about their character. This line of argument is dumb.

>>14540253
Olen suomalainen. En ole anglosaksi.
>>14540272
Do you not support animal rights? I understand not being vegetarian; I'm not one either because material human bodies need certain nutrients that can only come from other animals and I enjoy the taste of animal products.

>>14540286
>NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! THINK OF THE CHILDREEEN!!!!!!!!! I KNOW GODS MIND BETTER THAN HE DOES!!!! I KNOW THAT THIS EVIL WILL NOT LEAD TO THE FURTHERING OF GODS OMNIBENEVOLENT AND OMNIBENEVOLENT PLAN!!!!!

>>14540278
the entire book of isaiah STOP TALKING SHIT

>>14540295
>I eat animals only because I enjoy the taste of animal products
Materialist consoomer detected.

>>14540278
They are already a few post full of quotes.

>>14540295
>Do you not support animal rights?
I support the right of animals to be slaughtered decently and respectfully.

>>14540295
>Do you not support animal rights?

>>14540293
No matter what I say you will ask me for a citation as if it will change your mind if I find one. These are matters of faith and philosophy. What kind of citation do I need to show you? Do you really think that free will is incompatible with God using supposed omnipotence to prevent uniquely damaging evils such as child abuse?
>>14540294
Where did I say men should be struck down for common sin? We are all sinners. To suffer and struggle improves your character, sure, but how does child abuse improve your character? No child psychologists, pediatricians, schoolteachers, or others who know children well will tell you such a thing. To experience the death of a family member or feelings of guilt builds character. To be sexually abused only damages and leads you astray, especially if it occurs in your formative years.

>>14539955
>The Old Testament isn't even about God.
Right...

>>14539946
>>14540278
Sure, you're amiable enough.
>>14540270
You...not as much.

Ps 45 ( >>14540282 ) is the one that first came to mind, given my previous study of it, this is just elementary of course, not a famous prophecy but somewhat mundane.
The psalm is obviously addressed to a King, but something more as well: the word used for Mighty One is גִּבּוֹר, a term with not infrequent Messianic connotations in the tanakh (https://www.messie2vie.fr/bible/strongs/strong-hebrew-H1368-gibbowr-page-7.html#concordance).). Even further, it abruptly addresses the aforementioned King as God in 45:7, directly, in what Jews translate selectively as anything but God (https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16266/showrashi/true translates it as "O judge") despite the specific connotations of the definite article and the word being nearly always used to refer to God (https://www.messie2vie.fr/bible/strongs/strong-hebrew-H0430-elohiym-page-80.html#concordance).). Furthermore, how could a mere judge or king have a kingdom that is eternal, lasting forever and ever? Additionally, this isn't some translation problem as Jews always accuse Christians of, as this word is nearly always used for literal eternity (https://www.messie2vie.fr/bible/strongs/strong-hebrew-H5769-owlam.html).).

Now to something a little more forceful!
"Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will set up of David a righteous shoot, and he shall reign a king and prosper, and he shall perform judgment and righteousness in the land.
In his days, Judah shall be saved and Israel shall dwell safely, and this is his name that he shall be called, The Lord is our righteousness." (Jer 23:5-6, https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16020/showrashi/true).).
The Branch (among the Messiah's titles https://www.messie2vie.fr/bible/strongs/strong-hebrew-H6780-tsemach.html ), a shoot of David, a man, will simultaneously be called The Lord, Yehovah. The Messiah will be both God and Man.

There are larger passages in Isaiah and many other incidents in the Psalms, as well as other parts of the OT that imply God as the Messiah (particularly when God is speaking yet suddenly takes on the role of the Messiah in action and perspective, Is 53/52 as famous examples) but I wanted the less common and briefer references since it is 1 AM. Maybe next time we can talk about how Jews explain the Two Messiah conundrum ( >>14539873 ), and you can be questioned just like you questioned me. Or is this one-way?

>>14540320
>What kind of citation do I need to show you?
A citation arguing why "The benefits of free will do not outweigh the evil and depravity of the sexual abuse of children".

>>14540320
Men capable of uncommon sin and willing to commit it but fearing retribution will not commit it for fear of retribution, thus concealing their character. A sin is not a sin unless it is committed- thus it must be possible for man to sin without earthly consequence. You are stupid if you don't understand this.

>>14540320
>uniquely damaging evils
What does this word salad even mean? Yes, he can prevent it, but by using his omniscience and seeing the full picture he chooses not to. If you believe in omnibenevolence, it is clear that this choice is not ""evil"" in your libtard sentimentalist sense.

>>14540300
If your "God" is omnipotent and fine with children being raped, then you worship a false god. Turn to the one true God instead.
>>14540303
That's not what I said.
>>14540314
I agree.
>>14540317
Why does thinking dogs shouldn't be raped necessarily make me a onions-guzzling child? Do you think it's okay for men to rape animals? Do you think it's okay for men to torture animals? Animals do have certain God-given rights, and I have to assume anyone who says otherwise is a furry.

>>14540337
>Why does thinking dogs shouldn't be raped
That is not "animal rights". That is a prohibiton on permissible human activity established by God himself.

>>14540337
>omnipotent and fine with children being raped
How does that make him a false god? Give some actual arguments instead of "muh children being raped hurts my feelings!".

>>14540329
No such citation exists to argue for or against it. I'm arguing with you right now. I cannot see any way that what I said is not correct. If you think otherwise, then tell me why you think otherwise so I can understand and perhaps change my position if I am wrong.
>>14540331
We are already in Hell. Hell is earthly separation from God. We will all be saved. If God were omnipotent, it would not be so.
>>14540336
You know exactly what it means, and I have already said that I do not believe in liberalism. If you truly believe in omnibenevolence, then it is clear that an omnipotent God would not allow the current state of affairs to continue.

>Animals do have certain God-given rights
Where does He grant these rights to him?

>>14540360
>No such citation exists to argue for or against it.
Citation needed.

>>14540360
>then it is clear that an omnipotent God would not allow the current state of affairs to continue
Citation needed.

>>14540360
>We are already in Hell. Hell is earthly separation from God.
citation needed.

>>14540344
Then God has decreed that the animal has a right not to be raped and that it is wrong to rape the animal. That is an animal right. That is what a right is, that God has decreed that a being should not be violated in a certain way. You have a right to not be raped just the same.
>>14540355
It is not simply because it "hurts my feelings." I know that and you know that. The rape of children being uniquely evil is common knowledge in all civilized societies. To say otherwise is pedophile apologism.

>>14540337
>problem of evil in its worst form, which is “if god good why he let bad thing?”
Suffering is a fact of our fallen nature, and much suffering is the result of other fallen individuals. As for why God doesn’t smite every fucking pedophile, while I cannot answer definitively insofar as my mind cannot breach God’s wisdom, some reasonable motives might be:
- a fear of merely punishment tends to not foster genuine or loving faith
- metaphysical punishment is preferable to earthly punishment
- earthly punishment isn’t enough
- to do so would not allow for mortals to learn to institute justice through their own systems (laws)
- repentance is not possible if you’re fucking dead
- reconciliation is not possible if you’re fucking dead
- there is somehow a good in some act of evil that you as a brainlet can’t get, and this is necessarily so (t. Augustine, “the hate of the Caesar is turned to the love of the martyr)
- at the end of the day, assuming God’s omnipotence/goodness/wisdom, a necessary premise of having an objective moral order as well as reasoning (if it is a given that what we call God created humanity, it is then necessarily so that He must be unquestionably good, or we couldn’t reason using the mind He created towards any truth, for we could never be assured in its capabilities or that it is not maliciously designed to grasp only lies or function properly, so to speak), you’re just in no position to question him. God’s goodness is assumed in spite of the world.
t. >>14540328 since I am the most autistic Christian in this thread.
I’m heading to bed now brothers, hope to see you tomorrow. God bless!

>>14540361
You are an animal. You know innately that you should not rape an animal, human or otherwise. If you do not, you are sick. Everyone who is not sick knows this. Do you believe that your only God-given rights are clearly enumerated in material texts?
>>14540365
>>14540372
I'm done with you. Pearls before swine.

Refute this, but be prepared to immediately become a subhuman materialist brainlet if you do so.
>a man rapes a child
>man dies, child dies
>man gets tortured eternally (inb4 hell does not exist, excision of the soul still does, if it doesn't, then read further)
>child goes to heaven
>according to the liberal model, the child is experiencing maximum & supreme bliss
>this outweighs all of the sufferign the child experienced, since the suffering caused was a finite number and the bliss is by definition supreme
>thus the events above results in a net total benefit, which satisfies the only imperative under the utilitarian-liberal model
>this shows that omnipotence does not contradict omnibenevolence

>>14540383
>You are an animal.
Actually, I am a descendant of Adam.
>You know innately that you should not rape an animal
Yes, because God bestowed me with this intuition and then sent Prophets who proclaimed this message to confirm it.
>Do you believe that your only God-given rights are clearly enumerated in material texts?
Do you believe not? Produce me a single "God-given" right that was not revelead or does not follow from other revelation.

>>14540393
mildly brilliant. Gigachad has always been associated with posters with an IQ. Why is this?
t. guy who said he was going to bed but sticks around to see if smugposting Jews will respond to his refutation of their Scriptural Jewry

>>14540405
A sound mind and a sound body go hand in hand. Only midwits fall for the Hollywood meme of the out-of-shape genius and the dieseled moron, because that meme is a highly advanced Jewish cope.

>>14540378
>a fear of merely punishment tends to not foster genuine or loving faith
How can this be reconciled with a believe that Hell is a punishment given after material/earthly life? It can be reconciled with my belief that material life is suffering and the material world is Hell, but I don't see how it can be reconciled with the traditional way of thinking of the churches.
>metaphysical punishment is preferable to earthly punishment
Why would metaphysical "rehabilitation" in the form of purification and cleansing of the material condition of sin not be preferable to metaphysical punishment, then? That is what I believe.
>earthly punishment isn't enough
I agree, the material is not enough in any way.
>to do so would not allow for mortals to learn to institute justice through their own systems (laws)
Even if it was only in truly extreme circumstances? We would still learn to institute some semblance of justice (material justice cannot compare to the immaterial form of justice) in cases such as theft. Besides that, we historically have largely been able to truly institute justice because of the corruption of the material world.
>repentance is not possible if you're fucking dead
Yes, it is, because death is not the end.
>reconciliation is not possible if you're fucking dead.
Yes, it is, because death is not the end.
>there is somehow a good in some act of evil that you as a brainlet can't get, and this is necessarily so
No need for name-calling. I can't see how there could somehow be a good outcome from child sexual abuse. From other acts of evil, sure, but not sexual abuse. Show me.
>you're in no position to question him
I'm not questioning Him. I'm questioning what I believe to be a false and slanderous interpretation of him. God gave us free will and a capacity for reason. If it is wrong to ask why He does things or question a conception of Him that seems wrong, then it would also be wrong for mortals to make lofty claims about Him but that doesn't seem to have ever stopped the material churches.
>heading to bed. God bless!
Goodnight. God bless you as well.
>the last point is long
>

>>14540397
>Actually, I am a descendant of Adam.
Based.

>>14540393
Is this the utilitarian bike theft meme? Hell exists. We are in it currently. It is material separation from God. I am neither a utilitarian nor a liberal.
>>14540397
>Actually, I am a descendant of Adam.
Adam was an animal. He was a man. He and Eve were a mythologized or mythological conception of the earliest Jews.
>Yes, because God bestowed me with this intuition and then sent Prophets who proclaimed this message to confirm it.
Cool, although I don't recognize the Jewish prophets as I am not a Jew. You can if you want though, I suppose.
>Produce me a single "God-given" right that was not revealed or dots not follow from other revelation.
I don't believe in the Jewish prophets. I believe only in Christ. Let me look back at my copy of the Old Testament, because I haven't read it in a while.

>>14540456
>Hell exists. We are in it currently.
if you read his retroactive refutation of your position, it doesn't depend on hell even existing or this world not being hell, brainlet.
>I am neither a utilitarian nor a liberal.
then why do you need muh suffering to not excede certain material thresholds to believe in God's omnipotence? you seem like a previous liberal for sure, and their thinking is still deeply embedded into you.

>>14540456
>I don't recognize the Jewish prophets
>Adam was
>recognizes Adam, a Jewish prophet
>I believe in Christ.
>recognizes Jesus, someone claiming to be a Jewish prophet

>>14540456
>I don't believe in the Jewish prophets
>Let me look back at my copy of the Old Testament
Your copy of the Old Testament must be pretty thin.

>>14540328
God bless good posts.

Here is a book reck to anyone who is questioning if Jesus is the Messiah from OT

>>14539746
What is your faith? Is it a belief that Jesus Christ was a holy figure that can be proven to have come about through divine intervention, by the proof of vague prophecies that were passed down through word of mouth for several hundred years before being written down? Or is it a sincere belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ, all that he a good for and represented? It doesn't matter if the Old Testament predicted him. What matters is what you believe in.

>>14539678
Why do? They don't.
Why can they? Most of them are honest they just don't care to learn the full truth because, as you might suspect, that isn't the point of religion.
You have only lied to yourself believing you were a tolerant Christian when you were really looking for glory in a world-renowned book about ancient ethics.

>>14539678
Jesus is everywhere in the old testament

Jesus in the book of Genesis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BxadPMJnm8

Read Genesis 22, Psalms 22, and Isaiah 53 in King James Bible.

>>14540883
forgot to link the bible way to heaven video. too many people make the mistake of reading bibles with commentaries and notes/study bibles but when you are actually a born again bible believing Christian, the Holy Spirit living in you will teach all things like the scripture says. Hear the gospel if you don't know for sure if you are saved or not, or don't know what that means.

https://youtu.be/kYmLzXHP2Ak

>>14540233
The whole plot of the Bible is Satan challenging God, and playing a chess game he's bound to lose. It's simply his turn now, read 1 John 5:19.

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel
>For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
>“Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; A King shall reign and prosper, And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell safely; Now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
>A ruin, a ruin, I will make it a ruin! And it will not be restored until He comes to whom it belongs, to whom I have assigned judgment.
>“I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.

>>14541109
>And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.
>Let your hand be on the man of your right hand, on the son of man whom you made strong for yourself. So we will not turn away from you. Revive us, and we will call on your name.
>I will pour on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they will look to ME whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son, and will grieve bitterly for him, as one grieves for his firstborn.

>>14540597
>What is your faith?
>What matters is what you believe in.
OP here. Thanks for the kind response. It really means a lot to me.
I know it's cringe, but I wrote out my creed of theology to put my Faith on paper and sign my name to it. I'm still in a state of shock and don't know what to think of the OT right now, but I believe Christ was the Messiah even if the OT doesn't explicitly state that and some apostles lied about it. I'll read the full thread now.

>I believe in three things: Christ, יהוה and his Holy Spirit.
>I believe in the incarnate Messiah who was born of the Virgin Mary.
>He preached in Judaea and was a Lord to many people,
>then he was persecuted, killed and crucified by Pontius Pilate.
>He was buried, and on the third day he rose from the dead.
>I believe he died for our sins out of love for us.
>I believe he IS love.
>I believe he will save us all by faith in him.
>The way to the God יהוה is only through Christ.
>One does not need works.
>One does not need a Pope.
>One needs a pastor to guide them, like Christ did in Jerusalem.
>One needs to be reborn in Christ.
>Only faith in the Resurrection of Christ will save us
>and forgive our sins
>and give us life everlasting
>Amen.

>>14539678
Bump. May anon find his faith again.

>>14541109
>Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel
I looked at a Jewish translation and it says nothing about a virgin? I am lost for words right now. I google translated every Hebrew word and "virgin" is nowhere in there.
>Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.

>>14541167
>I will pour on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they will look to ME whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son, and will grieve bitterly for him, as one grieves for his firstborn.
>And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son.
The Jewish translation doesn't say that He was be pierced, only that they shall look to Him because of someone else who was thrust through with swords... I literally am lost for words at this moment. Can someone explain this to me please?

>>14541490
Thanks for the kindness anon. I wish the same onto you.

How do you guys know that Christianity is the correct religion to believe in? Why not Buddhism for example. I'm a Christian myself but I've been wondering.

>>14539809
Based

>>14541843
Because Buddhists literally pray to a statue. That is so fucking wrong and disgusting I cannot even begin to describe it. The Oneness of God is knowable directly by prayer. One then discovers that idolatry is very damaging to one's soul.

>>14541894
Isn't praying to Jesus idolatry?

>>14541912
Jessica is God so no

>>14541912
Yes, but don't tell Christians.

>>14541912
Kind of, but it's not as severe I guess? To be safe, one could only pray to the other two Persons of the Trinity, but I need a physical image in front of my eyes when praying or else I can't do it.

>>14541926
Jesus is God according to Christians, what about non Christians then? They see him as just another idol or a prophet. I'm very confused about it .

>>14541937
Yet churches are filled with iconography and the cross is before all the believers. Seems very idolatry to me

>>14541912
John 14:6, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

The Lord Christ is the Son of God. He is our intermediary between the unreachable and sovereign abode of God and the fallen Earth. The Lord Christ is beyond the Earth, but he "strives with the spirits" of man, that they may turn from the ways of the world in preparation for His return.

>>14541955
>unreachable and sovereign abode of God
Says who? I reach it every day in my prayers, G-d willing.

>>14541955
But according to this he is as much God as God is God. Why not just pray to God then. You don't need a prophet if you by praying to Jesus you pray to God that is Jesus anyway.

>>14540320
>No matter what I say you will ask me for a citation as if it will change your mind if I find one.
It's a completely subjective judgment. Anyway, children getting raped, even a large number of children being raped in a particularly brutal manner over a long period of time, is still only a finite degree of suffering.

>uniquely damaging evils such as child abuse
>Child abuse is worth than death
You're just emoting. Sure, it's bad, but the idea that it's so bad that it can't possibly coexist with Good is just hysteria.

>No child psychologists, pediatricians, schoolteachers, or others who know children well will tell you such a thing.
Worship them instead, see where it gets you. Maybe if the universe had been created by a kindergarten teacher it would be a better place!

>>14540374
It's highly likely that the prohibition against bestiality (and of course, "do not muzzle the ox who treadeth out the grain") has more to do with humans than with animals. I.e. bestiality is not permitted because it's bad for the animal-rapist even if the animal per se is morally irrelevant.

>>14541976
God himself will arrive on Earth with The Lord Christ's return. Read revelations.

>>14541986
Then you must surely realize that you're positing a non-argument.

>>14542009
>God himself will arrive on Earth with The Lord Christ's return.
How does that contradict me being able to reach him in prayer (G-d willing) right now on this Earth when I do not pray to Jesus?

>>14541986
You're too impure to stand before the throne of God himself, you need a mediator between man and god, and that mediator is the man Jesus Christ.

>>14542015
>How does that contradict me being able to reach him in prayer (G-d willing) right now on this Earth when I do not pray to Jesus?

No comment. I don't care to "debate" you on the personal practice of prayer. This is not a discussion to be had. Good day.

>>14542027
So Christianity is idolatry after all then? I thought Christian God only wants people to love each other and live a rightous path and that is how you will meet him after death. Does that mean any non Christians will not go to heaven if they don't pray to Jesus?

>>14541535
>it doesn't say "pierced" it says "thrust through" XTIANS BTFO1111
t. jew

Also "almah" was probably understood to imply virginity, at least ideally, pretty much identically to the English "maiden".

>>14542027
>you need a mediator between man and god
>Jeremiah 29:12-13
>Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you.
>You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
Why does it say differently in my Holy Bible?

>>14542031
>personal practice of prayer
I just follow what Abraham established with his direct prayers to G-d with no intermediaries. I don't know why you believe so vehemently that I cannot reach G-d by following in the footsteps of such great men.

>>14541939
Who cares about the opinion of non Christians about Jesus ?

>>14542049
1 Timothy 2
1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

>>14540189
Kill yourself instead you worthless cuckold.

>>14542070
Are you one of those "men shouldn't have opinions about abortion because it's not their bodies" guys? Same rules apply

>>14542074
>Timothy 2
I don't accept the validity of the New Testament, sorry. Is there any Old Testament verse supporting your claim?

>>14541955
Okay, but why do you have to picture Christ to pray to him? Why not pray to his immaterial divine essence? That's still Jesus The Son of God, right?

>>14541207
fucking cringe. there's heresy every two lines here anon...

>>14542115
Sorry, I don't accept the teachings of the demiurge.

>>14542149
based

>>14542149
Same God as Jesus' father. Jesus said this himself.

>>14542176
Jesus had to lie in that case to protect his mortal part.

>>14542180
Cope. Mental gymnastics of Christians are so amazing. Truly a sight to behold

>>14542094
No they don't ,unless you are a perenialist but then your opinion on God is worthless because its all the same anyways.
It's like saying non Germans have a say in German policy.

>>14542176
Wrong.

>>14542149
Why not?

>>14542149
>destroys your false belief

>>14539678
The entire bible was written by some sandniggers high on the good stuff. Why does anybody even bother with this shit?

>>14539806
That's boring and that's stupid.

>>14542340
So what exactly is "the good stuff"?

(I assume you don't mean God's grace.)

>>14542333
>becomes a heretic

>>14542132
>Okay, but why do you have to picture Christ to pray to him?

Nobody claimed this. This is your conception of prayer; to use an image. The image itself, that you might concentrate on, isn't even the authentic visage of the Savior, but an artists own conception of Him. Wondering on who or what to "picture" during prayer is to miss the point of prayer entirely. There are prayers that the Lord Christ himself uttered, namely the Our Father prayer. Yet you are either ignorant of, or simply ignore, this fact.

The Lord Christ is the sacrifice bestowed unto us by God. To ignore this fact, is to ignore the essence of Christianity entirely.

>>14542310
Filthy materialist God, not of pure spirit like the divine monad, the Father

>>14539788
>If you question your faith you are being tempted by the Devil.
What voodoo African tier Christianity has been taught to you. There is no devil, there is no tempting

>>14542375
"the good stuff", you know, "fiction".

>>14543157
In the beginning was the Devil, and the
Devil was with God, and the Devil was
God, the same was in the beginning
with God. All things were made by
him; and without him was not any
thing made that was made. God
>>14543185

>>14543185
>>14543210
"the good stuff"

>>14540328
>this huge post and still no proof of jesus's messiah-hood
the Isiah and psalms passages you've mentioned have been conveniently altered by the all-loving church fathers, if you read the king james version and then go and read the original tanakh version you'll see the difference, for example

"Dogs have compassed me; the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me; they pierced my hands and my feet." Psalm 22:16 (KING JAMES BIBLE)

chrisitians read this passage and become confident in their perversion and delusions. on the other hand, the original true passage that is in the tanakh says

"For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evildoers have enclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet."

you see the alteration?
Correct translation
For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evildoers have enclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet.

HEBREW
כִּי סְבָבוּנִי, כְּלָבִים: עֲדַת מְרֵעִים, הִקִּיפוּנִי; כָּאֲרִי, יָדַי וְרַגְלָי:

KING James Translation
For dogs have compassed me, the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me; they pierced my hands and my feet

>>14543218
I used Jewish sympathetic translations whenever possible; did you even read the scriptural links to CHABAD.ORG? Stop making yourself look like a fool, it only makes kike haters more convinced of themselves. Argue well or don’t argue at all.

>>14543574
yes I read the scriptures, and they are not arguing in your favor. do you even have a refutation to this>>14543218
or are you just gonna call me a kike?

>>14543607
I didn’t call you a kike, I said that when you make yourself look like a fool, you make people on this site more bigoted against you than they might otherwise be. That’s why I try to be civil in all my posts.
You cannot accuse me of using scriptures biased towards me and Christianity as you explicitly did in >>14543218 . None of the chabad.org scripture excerpts I sent have anything to do with the Church, that’s malicious misleading or just not comprehending a reading properly.
As for differences in translation as you elucidated with a specific example of divergence in that one Psalm verse, I can’t explain those and we won’t come to an agreement anyways about which translation is correct. That is why I don’t use massively divergent verses to prove my point, I use verses you can accept on their face value if only it were translated faithfully, as I showed where translators said that a Judge-King who was merely mortal would somehow have an eternal kingdom in >>14540328 . Your points about translation are null since I use Scriptures biased towards the Jewish Perspective whenever possible, and show how even these slanted scriptures prove the Christian point.

>>14541535
>I looked at the Jewish Translation...
Jews selectively translate things, as I showed in >>14540328 . The specific word translated to “virgin” or “young maiden” is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almah , which the Jews take as meaning simply a young woman and the Christians take as meaning a virgin. I take the latter interpretation as, in every case the word is used, the woman in question is young/unmarried and so logically a virgin. Additionally, a birth to a woman of childbearing age is unremarkable, and it is not logical to be so redundant in describing something so important in Isaiah 7. Of course a woman who bears a child will be of childbearing age, it’s tautological. The specification of the extremely rare word of Almah is obviously meant to tell the reader something that isn’t literally a tautology, the only possible interpretation of it that satisfies this is that the “young woman” is: a virgin. See https://www.messie2vie.fr/bible/strongs/strong-hebrew-H5959-almah.html as well.

>The Jewish translation doesn’t say...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zechariah_12#Verse_10
I can’t find why it does not say the same thing as your translation, although it’s true that the Jews omit that verse (https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16216/showrashi/true/jewish/Chapter-12.htm).Cant help beyond that.

>>14541843
I believe in the historicity of Jesus Christ and His Resurrection, the key thing that distinguishes Christianity from the other monotheistic religions, which are the only religions which are logically plausible (through pure reason one can eliminate polytheism, e.g. Five Ways, Aristotle’s argument for a united First Cause). William Lane Craig’s book on the historical case for Christ, The Son Rises, is excellent.

>>14543721
its not a difference of translation, its the alteration in the jewish scriptures that church fathers committed in order to legitimize their christology, there is a true translation and a false one, as for your "proof", you claim the messiah will be called the Lord, Yehavoh (which is false) and you linked a site with verses from the tanakh that dont even talk about the messiah, from genesis and exodus. how does that prove your point? this thread has been going on for 16 hours and you've yet to bring a clear verse or chapter from the tanakh that clearly states the messiah will be God. I on the other hand have clearly shown a verse that states the messiah will be a servant of God, not himself God, as shown here >>14540077

>>14543781
And just what proof do you have that the church fathers literally altered countless verses in the Tanakh at a time when Jewish Christians were still disproportionately a force and demanded legitimate claims to Jesus’s genuine messiahship? An allegation I would no doubt have heard of before from atheists who would seek to discredit the Bible as a whole, especially seeing as they tag on the OT more than the NT?

Additionally, I’ve given you two examples from Scripture from Jewish-tilting sources that you dismissed with no explanation, instead deconstructing some other psalm I didn’t use or cite.
I already essentially addressed the claim you made in >>14540077 , see the pic in >>14539873 . Not all Messianic prophecies will be fulfilled at once.

>>14543893
> what proof do you have that the church fathers literally altered countless verses in the Tanakh
they didn't alter the tanakh in itself, they altered the translations to english when they wrote the king james bible, the one that the majority of christians read today, if you don't believe me, then invest in learning hebrew, go read the tanakh in its original language and then go read the king james translation of the tanakh, you will most definitely see the alteration that has been made in the translation, again for the last time in this thread, bring me a verse that clearly states the messiah himself will be God. you need to stop avoiding the truth, if God was going to be the messiah, then he would've clearly mentioned something as important as that, but no. the messiah is clearly stated to be a human man from the lineage of david who is a servant of God that is going to bring forth the messianic age

>>14543934
Just got home, I’ll indulge you more if you’ve got the ‘tism like me and are still even around

>>14539806

>>14543934
>Church fathers wrote the kgv
Wow