/lit/ - Literature

If you tie yourself into knots to make sense of it.

>>15400792
Hell as the place of ultimate non-good isn't that hard to imagine but the pitchforks and such are not exactly canon it's more about the natural course of sin and reaping what you sow seems an unavoidable consequence of creating morality in the first place.

>>15400792
Yes. There is no contradiction.
The good will be rewarded. The wicked will be punished. End of story.

>>15400792
he does not understand hell filtered i guess

>>15400792
Hell doesn't exist

The only rational conclusion is that hell exists but it's not eternal, the existence of an eternal realm of punishment is nonsensical.

>>15400985
Maybe not. The question, though, is about the ethics of the people who do happily believe in it.

Or at least believe that a limited amount (perhaps 80 years at most) of wrongdoing by a person generally unaware of their actions deserves in turn eternal pain (infinite years).

>>15400959
LMFAOOOO sperg-tastic post, truly

>>15400792
There is no such thing as a morally good or bad person

>>15400792
Hell is the absence of God. All that fire and brimstone shit was made up by Prots

>>15401054
People who literally believe in an eternal hell tend to be cruel, I'm not sure if the belief in hell causes them to be cruel or if cruel people are more inclined to believe in nonsense like hell

>>15401084
This.
>>15401071
No.

>>15401084
I thought he was omnipresent?

>>15401847
You're not even trying to get it.

>>15401852
Yes I am. If god is everywhere, by definition, there is nowhere where he is not.

>>15401084
The fire and brimstone shit is in the bible doe, jesus talks about it non-stop.

>>15400792
who says god is morally perfect?

I don't get where that comes from, there's no basis at all for it in the bible. Hell, the first part of it is all about god being a total dick and making mistakes left and right.

It's more of just christian myth that has grown and become accepted, actually...just like the concept of hell to, as that isn't in the bible either.

>>15401889

>>15400792

Punishment is justice in the case of Hell.
Justice is morally good.
What exactly is the problem?

>>15401945
Yeah well if God is so great how come there seem to be things that I don't agree with written in the Xtian Bible. Riddle me that christcuck.

>>15401956

I would suggest this
>>15401054

It appears to be a horribly cruel justice. If we are God's children, it's like if your child hit another child and in the name of "justice" you threw your child down a well.

>>15401989
Just repent it's not that hard.

>>15401945
what is this wojack even supposed to convey?

>>15402023

>>15402011
That's not a counter-argument or explanation. I'm guessing your reply means you don't have one? I'll give you one more response to explain your position.

>>15401967
Because you are not completely good, no one human being is. :3

We try as hard as we can though to strive for perfection

>>15400959
makes sense

Hell is what we feel when we’re depressed, Heaven is what we experience when we’re happy. We all live in between those two and it is called earth.

>>15401889
God isn't that different from the other gods that existed in that time, in that region. He's a giant being that lives in the mountains, knows some magic (the tricks he teaches Moses) and expresses his wrath through extreme weather events, a fairly typical example of a Mesopotamian god. All of the stuff about him being all powerful, all knowing and all loving was added later with no respect to the original stories. Even the idea of him being the only god is a later addition, in many stories god talks to himself using plural pronouns, this is because the myths originally included multiple gods and they were clumsily edited out.

>>15401989
>it's like if your child hit another child and in the name of "justice" you threw your child down a well.
But that's wrong. God has explained what is good and what is evil, and if, knowing what is good, man chooses to work evil in the Earth, he deserves to be cast away from the spirit of God, i.e. into Hell.
Also this >>15402011

>>15400792
Why wouldn't you think justice is good? Do you also think the government is evil for inventing jail/prison?

>>15402069
Wow, what book of theology did you get that from?

>>15402065
But many people who suffer from depression suffer because of childhood trauma, not "sin". In that case Hell is not a punishment, but just a thing that happens to certain people by chance.

>>15401889
>>15402069
How is it that both people in this comment chain are so laughably retarded and can not grasp Gods existence?

>>15400792
Define good

>>15402075
It's not Theology it's History and Comparative Mythology, look into Mesopotamian mythology and history and then the Old Testament, it makes a lot more sense.

>>15402068
And you told your child not to hit other children, and he did anyway. So he deserves mutilation? Following this, I guess I can't see you as a morally good person.

>>15402075
There are non-theological books.

>>15402050
>Because you are not completely good
False, I have obtained Gnosis (that's "knowledge" for you hylics) and used it to determine that everything I want to do is good.

Hell is not a physical place, it is a state of consciousness which is accurately represented by the absence of belief in the first principle which is the origin of the universe or God, a state of unhinged despair and abject darkness benumbing your mind and isolating your soul from the physical and spiritual realm. The original Hebrew Bible from which Christianity stole nearly all its contents mentions "Sheol" which in turn means grave in the hebrew language, a subterranean underworld where the souls of all the dead went after the body died. There is no negative connotation of Sheol until the Second Temple period where the jews created the concept of heaven, which should be enough evidence that heaven and hell are man-made concepts and that they should be taken in a metaphorical sense.

>>15400792
If God is morally perfect then something he does cant be considered imperfect morality. The only way your question makes sense is if your concept of what perfect morality is,is wrong.

Its like asking if a morally good person can believe a morally perfect God does something I consider immoral is he a morally perfect God and the person morally good? By definition if he is morally perfect then what he does is morally good regardless of whether you consider it so or not and yes someone who is morally good can believe it because it was made by something that is morally perfect.

>>15402069
It's the pluralis majestatis brainlet.

>>15402090
I mean to be fair the Israelites had a pretty hard time understanding God's nature.

>>15402125
Why is the all-knowing and sole god talking out loud like a confused old man? Why can't the all-knowing god see Adam and Eve when they're hiding behind a bush? Why does the all-knowing, omnipresent god have to "come-down" to reconnoitre the tower of Babel? You're being wilfully obtuse, you can interpret any book any way you like but the intentions of the bible's authors are clear.

>>15402124
so this is the power of Christianity....wow....

>>15400792
The bible doesn't have a hell; early, tragically approximative greek translations of the various words used to speak of the place were reside the dead have led to a lasting confusion about this.
Then medieval times came and basically created the imagery of this hell. Popes saw in there a good control measure to keep populations fearful of god and enlist support for the crusades.
It's all just a sad story of human retardation enduring with success the trial of time, really.

>>15402124
That person is "moral" in the sense that the faith they have fallen into celebrates a certain sense of "morality".

From an outside viewer's potential point of view, aspects of that morality may be monstrous, and may not fit other, more beautiful conceptions of morality.

>>15402093
>>15402106
What are all those tomes before Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?
>>15402097
No. False comparison. Do you think that deliberately working evil in the Earth throughout an entire lifetime, that willfully rebelling against God for all of one's lifetime is comparable to a child hitting someone once?

>>15402201
>Do you think that deliberately working evil in the Earth throughout an entire lifetime, that willfully rebelling against God for all of one's lifetime is comparable to a child hitting someone once?
No you see these are the same thing because my will and existence are completely irrelevant and/or illusory and my actions have no consequences whatsoever. If these things weren't true then I would deserve bad things to happen to me and I'm actually really good so that can't be right. Anyone who disagrees with this is the REAL devil.

>>15402178
Whether or not it seems monstrous does not matter. If God has perfect morality as the original question stated then more beautiful conceptions that do not fit it is wrong because then it disagrees with the perfect and is therefore of no real value as conceptions or measurements of morality however beautiful they may seem to some.

>>15402254
if God told you to jump off a cliff would you do it

>>15402116
Absolutely not metaphorical at all, if you believe in your soul, then you should understand it will be punished or not. And in the time of the resurrection you will be tried as well.

Your interpretation is far too airy, do you even believe we were made in Gods image? Do you even believe the human body is perfect? Yes? No?

There are still secrets to discover, still answers to be had, but if we are to take your word, what’s the point if it’s simply metaphorical?

Read the Koran and be saved :3

Do not divide yourselves into sects based on religion

>>15402201
Comparative Mythology and History books have helped me to completely understand the bible. I have to question Jesus' claim to divinity if I need the help of fallible mortals to understand what he's saying.

>>15402309
>I have to question Jesus' claim to divinity if I need the help of fallible mortals to understand what he's saying.
Where did you get that idea from?

>>15402276
If Jeff Bezos told you he would pay you to jump off a cliff would you do it?

>>15402276
sure

>>15402160
It's poetry meant to be understood by man, not a play by play of the actual events and the authors weren't aware of what they were doing. This is an evolved story not one created by a conscious mind. This part discusses the development of self-consciousness. It means something like this: when man became aware of his vulnerability he became fearful. There's sinfulness, an inability to show yourself before God (meaning to do what is right). Again, it's not to be taken literally.

>>15402125
literally didn't exist
this is what christcucks are left with, making up anachronistic semite grammar?
literally a faith built out of elmers glue and popsicle sticks

>>15402368
That wasn't what the church was saying when there was no way to prove otherwise. And that's not what they'll be saying when there's a way to test this theory.

>>15402406
Christians have no problem with that whatsoever since they believe in the trinity.

>>15402429
the plural elements of their plagiarized faith at least lean into the idea of a retarded trinity
pluralis majestatis is unironically brainlet cope

>>15402422
>That wasn't what the church was saying when there was no way to prove otherwise
I wouldn't say so. Literalism isn't the default position, as you assume it to be.

>>15402422
A major reason for the protestant schism was exactly that the church did not adhere to biblical literalism. Obviously the lines are not clear but these things have been read as poetry for a long time. To quote Origen of Alexandria, one of the church fathers: "who is so silly as to believe that God ... planted a paradise eastward in Eden, and set in it a visible and palpable tree of life ... [and] anyone who tasted its fruit with his bodily teeth would gain life and again that one could partake of “good and evil” by masticating the fruit taken from the tree of that name? And 'walk in the paradise in the cool of the day' and Adam to hide himself behind a tree, I do not think anyone will doubt that these are figurative expressions which indicate certain mysteries through a semblance of history and not through actual events"
He wrote that not two hundred years after Christ walked the earth.

>>15402534
I'm no expert on Theology but wasn't Origin condemned as a heretic?

>>15400792
Nothing to do with literature.

>>15401868
There is in non-being retard

>>15402090

What the hell are you even talking about...?

I don't have any problem grasping god's existence, or even believing in it/him/whatever. I just don't see where this morally perfect bullshit comes from, granted there's plenty of dumb christians who espouse it, but I see no actual mention of that in the bible.

It also says that god created man in his image, and in the old testament it's pretty clear right from the getgo that god isn't perfect, screws a lot of stuff up, and flys off the handle at times...just like people do.

>>15402657
That's just a language game, non-being is not a place, it is the absence of something.

>>15402589
That had nothing to do with the subject at hand and he remains one of the most important figures in church history, also interpretation is not an an idiosyncrasy of his, it's the Catholic tradition. The literalists (not that this could even exist in sanity) usually were revollutionaries and the enemies of church.

>>15402705
Now who's playing word games?

>>15402744
You. You're asking a rhetorical question.

>>15400792
In orthodoxy heaven and hell are the same 'place'. Namely gods love is as a radiant fire that burns (through shame) those who reject him and warms those who do not.
In this interpretation god is not punishing anyone, or actively harming anyone, but rather the spirit is simply not properly 'attuned' to goodness and thus suffers in its presence

>>15402784
can you walk over from hell to heaven whenever you feel like it then?

>>15402821
Only if the traffic is light

>>15402734
I only brought him up because he was used as proof that Christians have always supported reinterpreting the bible (and somehow I managed to misspell his name, even though it was right in front of me) if he was condemned as a heretic that changes everything. But it doesn't matter anyway, because I'm no expert on theology, so I can't answer all of these objections. The real question is: "Did the authors of the Bible write it as a complex work of metaphor and moral instruction?" and I really think the answer is "no", the Old Testament is a book about a giant angry storm god who protects Israel and punishes any who displease him. It's no different then any of the other Mesopotamian religion and it even takes elements from other Mesopotamian religions, later on, the Israelites transitioned to monotheism and rewrote their myths to support this. Even later on, some people decided that this Mesopotamian storm god was all powerful, all loving and all knowing and they couldn't rewrite the myths so they reinterpreted them, that's about it as far as I can see.

>>15402201
No. No one "deliberately works evil". No one. Everyone thinks they are good, and want to be good. "Evil" is done through ignorance. And even if someone does something they truly know is wrong, they do it for the sake of something they believe to be a greater good.

>>15402254
The original question is posed in the sense of what certain people believe-- "Are people who worship a God who creates a realm of torture good people?"

--NOT: "The Christian God is real and true and his creation of Hell is good, how do I deal with it?"

You believe the latter was the question, when that is incorrect.

>>15402821
im not sure how it works beyond that i just remember reading it some time ago and then did a quick check to confirm it was correct before posting it

>>15402934
I'm not any kind of Christian, Jew or Muslim, but I strongly object to this idea, some people just do evil things for no reason. Look into the case of Ian Brady and Myra Hindley, it's one of the clearest cases of inexplicable evil that exists.

>>15402614
God is an important concept in literature. Read a book.

>>15402784
This is clever. I like this-- it feels much closer to a real metaphysical law rather than most Christians "God-Daddy complex" type answers.

>>15402959
A quick search shows me they were murderers and rapists. They were probably psychopaths-- a mental disorder. Their minds did not work properly. That's different from people willingly doing evil to spite God.

Can you give me the details of what you think is exceptional about the case?

>NOOOO YOU CAN'T JUST BURN ME FOR ETERNITY JUST BECAUSE I SINNED MY WHOLE LIFE WITHOUT REMORSE! SURE I MADE THE WORLD I LIVE IN A WORSE PLACE BUT YOU CAN'T JUST PUNISH ME FOR IT THAT IS NOT FAIR NOOOOOOOOOOOO

>>15402995
Purely that they had no motive. And that Ian Brady, at least, was well aware of the moral implications of what he did, yet never expressed any regret. Which stands opposed to the initial quote: '"No one "deliberately works evil"'. That's all I was trying to prove.

>>15402889
These are very old stories that have been retold, syncretized and changed hundreds of thousands of times before they were ever written down. Meaning they were formed by masses of people and what was remembered and retold is that which spoke to the common human element, meaning archetypes that are filled with meaning beyond their or our understanding. They're not stories as a writer would create them, in a sense they evolved spontaneously from the context of our biological reality. It's not storm gods, these things deal with the fundamentals of human existence and contain knowledge that we largey understand by intuition. It's not an accident that we tell the same story over and over, there's something there.

>>15403041
Ok. I see what you were saying.

>>15401847
God's presence is like a light spectrum. The further away you get from the lower the level of consciousness. This eventually becomes "hell". The real torture is the absence of love. People do not know what this feels like except in moments of complete misery. It is an emptiness more than anything. Everything you've ever wanted is outside of your reach.

But there is always a little bit of light somewhere. I don't know what that means. I like to believe that redemption, the return to God, is always possible

>>15403055
These stories are old, but they're not Cultural Universals. They're particular to that region of the world and perhaps most importantly, the Biblical versions of these stories are some of the most obtuse examples, a lot of loose ends in the Old Testament make sense when you compare it to the originals. The remainder of the bible is mostly just patriotic stories and poems that loose all meaning (or so I'm told) when they're translated from Hebrew into any other languages. I can see why these books would be of great cultural importance to Jewish people, because it's a part of their history, but i don't see how it has relevance to the day to day lives of anybody else.

>>15403041
>was well aware of the moral implications of what he did, yet never expressed any regret.
Sounds like ignorance to me

>>15403128
He knew perfectly well what he'd done, but he was proud that he did it. He frequently told anybody who'd listen that he knew where his last victim was buried, but he was never going reveal the location. He did it purely to torment the victim's mother.

>>15403147
But you assign intent into his actions and claim they could not have been done through ignorance of good, that he knowingly chose evil. But you have no way to prove that, therefore I claim that he acted from ignorance, an ugly animalistic ignorance just like a cuckoo bird throwing eggs out of an unattended nest.

>>15402934
>Everyone thinks they are good, and want to be good.
This is irrelevant. God has shown them the true path. If they willingly reject it and flaunt His Laws, they are willingly working evil in the Earth.

>>15403000
the whole point of christianity is that you can get into heaven even if you objectively make the world an awful place, though. that is why people like Saul who committed murders against Christians were able to convert and be saved. your logic doesn't make sense here bud

>>15402995
>Their minds did not work properly
lol
This is your mind on psychiatry.

>>15403164
If he didn't know what he did was wrong, locking him up for fifty-odd years was a big mistake. You'd best call the Manchester City Police and tell them about this, it's too late to let him free, but perhaps we can get the Queen to write him a posthumous pardon.

>>15403192
Well now you are just a semantic wielding nitwit

>>15403201
Justice is about moral agency, "mens rea" "malice aforethought" and so on, If we make criminality a disability, then nobody's guilty. Now read that sentence over and over whilst meditating on a picture of DCI Gene Hunt and you'll get the idea.

>>15403238
Yes, judgement in the sense of human judgement. This thread is about DIVINE judgement, there's a little bit of a difference understand?

>>15402673
It’s within the definition of god. I hat is good is defined by what good is. Maybe if all you read was the Old Testament. God is an axiomatic entity, not a god in the polytheistic sense.

>>15403270
Fair enough, if you're talking about God, then I'm well outside my wheelhouse.

>>15403176
"God" has not shown them the true path. If someone does not believe in God or a higher power it is because they have never encountered that higher power, or have not been indoctrinated in a church. That is why faith is called a gift.

If you have not been given that gift BY God, you should not be thrown into Hell. You literally have not been giving the ticket to salvation that others have.

If you are arguing about this with me, I will have to believe that you have never encountered God or a higher power, but have simply been indoctrinated and are parroting your preacher or favorite writers words. If you had actually experienced divinity, you would not speak of innocent human beings as "willingly working evil".

>>15403185
So you believe that murderers and rapists are doing what is "correct", what is "proper"? What are you even saying? ...Assuming you even have anything to say in response?

>>15403192
Mm. That's a matter of real life pragmatism, not "absolute justice" as we would hopefully like God to represent.

>>15403113
Obviously I'm not talking about the historical accounts which are a few thousand years old, but the stories I'm talking about are indeed cultural universals because they transcend culture, a matter that should be quite clear from the spread of Christianity alone. Fragments of these stories were propably told through thousands of cultures which over time added new insight. The same archetypes are found in every culture. Jesus is the Buddha and so is Luke Skywalker. Genesis in a fundamental sense is written in the language of humanity whether we consciously understand what it means or not. It contains truths that are valid until we cease to be human. They're not silly fairy tales they're extremely complex evolved structures and their construction and even interpretation is beyond the intellectual capacity of individuals, so we call them sacred, which I guess is what they are.

>>15403307
>If someone does not believe in God or a higher power it is because they have never encountered that higher power, or have not been indoctrinated in a church.
What are you talking about? The revelation has been delivered, and God's word is freely available for man to read. Neither "encounters with the divine" nor indoctrination are necessary. All that is necessary is constant faith and striving to walk the path set by God.
>That is why faith is called a gift.
I don't think that that's what is meant by the gift of faith.
I'm not sure what you mean by "innocent human beings," either.
>>15403320
1. It's possible to believe that something is acceptable, even though everyone around you thinks the opposite.
2. It is possible to hold and act on such beliefs without there being anything wrong with the mind of the actor.
3. To dismiss your opponent's argument by appealing to mental illness is absurd for a number of reasons, as he pointed out in >>15403192 and >>15403238.

>>15400985
Then where’s Cromwell?

>>15403343
Christianity transcends culture because it took over the Roman Empire, the biggest empire in the world at the time, before Jesus, they were erecting statues of Emperor Claudius in Colchester and Germanic tribes were worshipping Herakles. Human's need to believe in something, but that "something" is highly particular to their needs and environment, there's a reason Mesopotamians regarded gods as selfish giants who made man in order to enslave him (think about the living conditions and political structure in an ancient, arid environment) and Greeks conceived of gods as a kind of cosmic House of Parliament who were usually aloof to man's concerns (again, think of the political structure and environment) The further you go from the origin of a religion, the more divergent the beliefs become. Jesus wasn't King Arthur, he was, as far as I know, a Jewish folk hero in the manner of Moses or Solomon. People have tried to make Jesus into some kind of universal hero, so as to make it him easier to sell in the international markets, but when you take out all the bonus features, Jesus is as relevant to Gentiles as John Barleycorn is to Tibetan people.

>>15403364
You have not encountered a higher power. You repeat empty phrases like "the revelation has been delivered" that your pastor probably taught you. Without a personal encounter with the divine, your words are empty. You lack understanding.

Your points #1 and 2 support my argument. All people believe they do "good", "neutral", or "for the better good" actions.

Your third point is extremely confused. You entered a conversation you did not have an understanding of. For instance, I was not "dismissing" my opponent's argument, we in fact came to a general agreement.

Continue to "strive to walk the path". Maybe you will be blessed by a vision, and greater empathy for your fellow humans.

>>15400792
Everything that ever was or is or will be is created by God, including hell (Colossians 1:16). John 1:3 says, “All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.” God alone has the power to cast someone into hell (Luke 12:5). Jesus holds the keys of death and Hades (Revelation 1:18).

Jesus said that hell was “prepared” for Satan and the demons (Matthew 25:41). It is a just punishment for the wicked one. Hell, or the lake of fire, will also be the destination for those who reject Christ (2 Peter 2:4–9).

>>15400792
Easy, morality is defined by the guy who created hell. Don't worry about making sense of it, read Job and then Ezekiel and eat some bread cooked over human shit and be glad for it. Job had it easy, remember that.

>>15401091
>People who literally believe in an eternal hell tend to be cruel
Expound.

>>15401847
God's justice is hell for those who break His law.

>>15404157
The other guy said that hell was being absent from god, was the other guy mistaken or was he playing me like a Balalaika? Come on people, this is important, we need a definite answer!

>>15404132
Simple. What kind of person delights in the suffering of others?

The devil created hell.

>>15404215
How is justice "delight in the suffering of others?", people WILLINGLY do evil despite knowing the consequences. They chose to disobey, they deserve to suffer.

>>15404690
As I explained previously, people don't "willingly do evil". Since you have not responded to those posts in any constructive way, it seems you do not understand the argument.

And in that case, my conversation with you is over! : )

>>15404188
This Anon says it best. >>15403058

>>15404705
>i'm not evil due to my own faults, i was born this way!
Ultimate cope

>>15404705
When did you explain previously "that people dont willing do evil" exactly? Not that I care about you trying to run away from the argument.

>>15404707
Okay, that's decided, Hell is the absence of god, it is not a torture chamber or a physical location. Now we're getting somewhere.

>>15404734
Scratch that, Psalm 139 is saying that god's everywhere, we're back to square one.

>>15404769
Maybe we could say there is more god in some places, and less god in others? Most god = Heaven, Least god = Hell.

>>15404734
If I remember correctly according to St. Thomas Aquinas there is no difference between God's Essence vs. His Existence. So, God is not Just, because he IS Justice. Tha'ts what I meant by God's Justice is Hell for those who break His Law.

>>15404792
I like it, we're back on track, God is like a radio wave, he's everywhere but he's at some places, his signal's faint.
>>15404793
I think we have a working definition, justice is God, so being in tune with God is being just, slipping out of tune with God is sin, slipping so far out of range that you can't get back in touch is damnation. Remember this the next time somebody calls hell a literal 'pit of fire'.

>>15404709
imagine not having a moral compass, I bet he's not a virgin lmao

>>15400792
God is good, therefore He gave you freedom to distance yourself from Him if you want. If you choose to hate him and spit on His face, your soul will stray away from goodness. When you die, your soul is released from your body, and as you hated God and acted the opposite way from good (remember that God is good, literally) you will go to the place where there is no good, where it is most far away from God.

It's extremely simple, this debate is pointless

>>15402065
Thanks, Mr. Peterson! Have you recovered from your drug abuse? Also your daughter is hot

>>15405028
>It's extremely simple, this debate is pointless
Oh, so a child gets to choose who, as what and when they are born before they're given birth to? Funny how some people choose to be born as psychopathic individuals into violent junkie families where they'll be abused and raped, leading them onto a path of certain damnation. Or is the point that the will is Free and thus utterly unbound by its nature in existence, capable of changing even from a psychopathic violent drive into a peaceful and divinely touched spirit? You'd think people who are born broken would just choose to become whole, since their will is free and all.

>>15402070
>>15401956
"justice" is only there for a functional purpose. same with morality. they only make sense in the context of societal evolution. moralizing god is a failure of the human tendency to anthropomorphize.
>>15402116
interesting. though it does bring up the question of why belief is still a dictator in the first place.
>>15402280
>what’s the point if it’s simply metaphorical?
the spiritual awakenings that the prophets went through got simplified into stories and became your religion. its only natural because there isnt much to compare the spirit realm to here on earth. so they had to personify god and come up with hell or heaven to describe the feelings felt. i believe muhhamed pierced through the veil and peered into the spirit realm just like others before and after.

>>15403281
Where? Tell me.

Once again, I'll grant that christian myth seems to think it is, but it's an idea that absolutely is not supported in the bible.

I might even consider myself a christian if they threw away all this retconning bullshit of theirs.

>>15402969
This is orthodoxy and the original teachings of the first fathers and saints. Catholics approach to it and original sin is wrong. That's why Christianity is way stronger in orthodox communities and countries. Because it makes way more sense.