/lit/ - Literature

>>15432586
The police and courts investigated the allegations and Schuon was acquitted and I think the prosecutor involved apologized or something. There are some blogposts online insinuating that Schuon's group pressured or controlled the police/courts into dropping the case which seems absurd and I have seen no evidence these second allegations are true, mid-west cops don't fear new age gurus.

I'm not aware of anyone in the Traditionalist school commenting on the allegations in writing that has been published.

>>15432586
He was so close to removing the shackels of the slave-morality mindset and embracing true libertinism. Maybe he already was and was only a religious man in name, and in such a case he deserves our respect for his cunning.

>>15432613
What about this account?

Schuon's guilt of this crime, in other words, brings into question his entire philosophy, his 'system', and his cult. In another letter, Murray is somewhat more hesitant about admitting that the young girls embraced Schuon. She writes

>"maybe, (I'm not sure) the Shaykh pressed some girl/women just below adult age -- to his bare chest. If he did (it is quite possible) then it was because many women wanted to be close to him and went up to him for this in a kind of dance. It is normal for women to want something like this in respect of a saint -- just as it is normal for girl children to hug a grown man. Even if I scour my conscience, I cannot attribute any blame to the Shaykh for this, no matter what the facts were

Also, don't you feel a bit weird, that Schuon who was also a convert to Islam, also had such close relationship with various women of his cult that were not his wives?

>>15432586
The idea that human beings are not property, that children and woman have certain inalienable rights, that even in marriage you can rape your wife, that a good a religious man abstains from lower sexual impulses, etc.

These are all modern ideas.

In a traditional society, prostitution, rape, sodomy, pedophilia etc would exist alongside all the religious stuff these creeps keep posting.

Think about a 9 year old girl being married of, or an adult male starting a relationship with a younger male, or war brides being taken in captivity.

This lifestyle is the result of Guenon's concept of a traditional society, based amongst other things on Islam.

If you feel morally and spiritually uncomfortable with this, congratulations, you are a modern man. I am sure killing an animal in public, running around naked, taking revenge on another man or treating others as inferior also bothers you.

Its simply the natural result of traditionalism.

>>15432586
Sufi orders and saints are cringe as fuck.
it doesn't surprise me that he was a sick fuck because most of the saints/gurus do take advantage of their followers.

>>15432656
>modernity invented moral disgust

Shut up.

>>15432627
>What about this account?
The thing about all these accounts is that if any of them had any good evidence backing them up they would have resulted in Schuon being charged and pronounced guilty by a jury, but he wasn't.

>Schuon's guilt of this crime, in other words, brings into question his entire philosophy, his 'system', and his cult.
I agree with certain reservations, the molestation is unproven, but certainly it's verified that he passed himself off as a Sufi shaykh but would make people do all sorts of unislamic things including drinking alcohol. For this and not because of the unverified molestation allegations I am skeptical of him. There are countless Tibetian Buddhist teachers from Tibet who have done similar stuff though, and there is a sort of cultural norm there about "crazy wisdom", where wise teachers use otherwise unorthodox methods to enlighten people including drugs, violence, sex etc. However Schuon professed to be a Muslim and not a Tibetan Buddhist.

>Also, don't you feel a bit weird, that Schuon who was also a convert to Islam, also had such close relationship with various women of his cult that were not his wives?
Yes I agree, I'm not a huge fan of him; although I recognize that regardless of his personal behavior in some of his books he has insightful things to say about metaphysics. Just like Kaczynski was a wacko who killed people with bombs despite having valid insights about leftism etc in his writings

>>15432656
>In a traditional society, prostitution, rape, sodomy, pedophilia etc would exist alongside all the religious stuff these creeps keep posting.

I don't understand the point you are making. They exist in modern society, perhaps even more so. Did you watch the Pedo Gate documentary btw?

I personally cannot say is it true or not, but what if the world elite of our modern world actually are also collectively pedophiles and sexually deviant people who rape and kill children?

>Think about a 9 year old girl being married of, or an adult male starting a relationship with a younger male, or war brides being taken in captivity.

While this might not happen in modern type of warfare situation, I can think of multiple scenarios how in modernism certain immigrant women, underage or not, are abused by certain parties to prostitution etc.

>If you feel morally and spiritually uncomfortable with this, congratulations, you are a modern man. I am sure killing an animal in public, running around naked, taking revenge on another man or treating others as inferior also bothers you.

Quite frankly your post is full of contradictions. It is like saying that only a modern man has a conscience.

>>15432676
>Shut up.
Wow, what an argument.

To a traditionalist there literally is nothing wrong with raping a small girl.

Because 1. Woman are property. 2. If she is of a lower class she is even less then proporty. 3. No age of consent.

So this Schuon in his mind was just using his property. Thats traditionalism. Yeah, now things suddenly got real.

>>15432661
>Sufi orders and saints are cringe as fuck.
>it doesn't surprise me that he was a sick fuck because most of the saints/gurus do take advantage of their followers.

It seems to be more common in both Catholicism and in Buddhism than in Sufi circles. The founder of the Rigpa organization which has branches in 41 countries and is one of the main international groups of Tibetian Buddhism had to resign shortly before dying of cancer in 2019 when it was revealed he has sexually and physically abused people

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/sexual-assaults-violent-rages-inside-dark-world-buddhist-teacher/

>>15432693
You are obsessed with Islam. I am not a Sufi, nor I am a muslim.

You understand, that there have been traditional societies that were matriarchal in nature?

The whole point of starting a cult is to develop a harem of nubile young women (or men, as the case may be) that you can fuck on a whim. Let's not overthink it.

>>15432694
Have you read THE SHADOW OF THE DALAI LAMA - Sexuality, Magic and Politics in Tibetan Buddhism

I can recommend this book. It's not all Shambala when it comes to Dalai Lama either.

http://www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Index.htm

>>15432687
>They exist in modern society, perhaps even more so.

No, they dont, you have never read a book about the subject, childbrides, sodomy, prostitution of captured woman, rape of slave girls, these where highly common in even enlightened Greece.

If you feel disgust by this, thats because you are modern.

>While this might not happen in modern type of warfare situation
Sure, the United States captured about 10.000 Muslim woman, and either gave them as a prize to their soldiers or put them in public brothels/tempels for public use.

>Quite frankly your post is full of contradictions. It is like saying that only a modern man has a conscience.

It literally isnt, traditional people had an honor culture, raping a little girl of an enemy tribes wasnt dishonorable, if you married her and took care of her....

Not our modern logic now is it.

>>15432703
Schuon's inner circle was to satisfy his sexual desires and like this poster claims >>15432680
>it's verified that he passed himself off as a Sufi shaykh but would make people do all sorts of unislamic things including drinking alcohol.

Can we say he was an agent of counter-initiation? I never liked his books and compared to Guénon, he showed little to none insight

>>15432699
>You are obsessed with Islam.
I literally am not, I just mentioned it in one post and I have barely started posting, so you literally have no idea what my opinion on the subject is.

>You understand, that there have been traditional societies that were matriarchal in nature?

No there havent, and even if there have been, then those woman would have cheered on their warrior when they where raping the woman of an enemy tribe as many tribal people in the past did.

>>15432710
>Sure, the United States captured about 10.000 Muslim woman, and either gave them as a prize to their soldiers or put them in public brothels/tempels for public use

This is not the point I was making. Modern warfare causes refugee crisis type of situations, most of those refugees are exploited by various parties in different countries. They are sold as literal slaves, to prostitution.

What does it matter if the foreign, invading army does not sell your sister to prostitution, but fleeing the war zone to another country, some exploits her weakness as a refugee and she has to give anal sex as a payment to keep his visa

>>15432707
I have not heard of it but would be curious to read it, thanks for the rec

>>15432726
I mean her visa, not his

>>15432680
>>15432716
>>it's verified that he passed himself off as a Sufi shaykh but would make people do all sorts of unislamic things including drinking alcohol.
so he was like Mikhail Naimy, who said something like if you do not enjoy the freedoms on earth you will never know what freedom is in heaven.

>>15432746
Well, in that context, I was reminded of Michael Jackson who gave wine to young boys and called it "Jesus Juice"

Obvious allusion being to the Bible, where wine is drank by various people and it is viewed religiously just and "ok" thing to do, because Jesus did it too

But the motive for Jackson, being perhaps to make the boys more accepting to his homosexual pederast behavior

>>15432746
If you are slaves on Earth & you were told: “Renounce Earthly Freedom, for in Heaven awaits you unimaginable Freedom!” Answer him: “He who did not taste Freedom on Earth, will not know it in Heaven!”
― Mikhail Naimy , The Book of Mirdad

>>15432726
>This is not the point I was making. Modern warfare causes refugee crisis type of situations, most of those refugees are exploited by various parties in different countries. They are sold as literal slaves, to prostitution.

Yes, and nobody but a modern would give a shit, if the Huns where raping Gothic woman, because the idea that woman are beings with their own rights as human beings is completely modern.

The idea that nations and authorities are actually taking steps to stop the suffering of people who are completely foreign is a fairly modern and humanitarian way of looking at things.

Traditional man would have been indifferent.

I have another good one for you.

So, not only is age of consent modern, you are labour laws to protect children, laws against the use of torture and pensions to protect the elderly.

>>15432710
>No, they dont, you have never read a book about the subject, childbrides, sodomy, prostitution of captured woman, rape of slave girls, these where highly common in even enlightened Greece.

Uhm, how does this differ from the behavior of people like Jeffrey Epstein?

>>15432786
>Uhm, how does this differ from the behavior of people like Jeffrey Epstein?

You are playing tricks, in modern society it happens, but there are laws against those crimes and its considered amoral.

It happens because of corruption.

In traditional societies, it was common for people to rape children, have slaves, sell slaves, fuck their slaves.

What Epstein does in secret, was done openly in the past, thats the difference.

>>15432785
What are you talking about?

Modern elites sell children. they rape children while you fuck around on Facebook. professionally trained serial killers murder children while you play pathological video games that turn you into a subconscious serial killer by-proxy.

You are talking as if traditional society was on the level of sheer barbarism, or some other degenerate human system based on greed and decrepitude, dog eat dog or worse.. which tends to be the average human beings lowest common denominator in the modern world, or perhaps even their highest.

This modern unity of morals you speak and strive towards, is the same unity that ants experience being crushed under a boot. conditioned incrementally to remain in the dim twilight of perception to understand that this current situation is a ‘mr. softee’ version, very palatable, like strawberry yogurt ice cream, minus the barbed wire and machine guns.. but just as fatal, perhaps even more so than it was in the ancient world.

>>15432586
They were sperm-eating occult templars.

>>15432811
>Modern elites sell children. they rape children while you fuck around on Facebook. professionally trained serial killers murder children while you play pathological video games that turn you into a subconscious serial killer by-proxy.

1. Elites abuse children in secret, because society does not approve.

2. Elites openly buy and sell slaves on a market, its normal and socially acceptable and large parts of society belong to this slave class.

I wonder which one is worse, if you cant tell the difference, you have no sense of scale and are stupid.

>You are talking as if traditional society was on the level of sheer barbarism, or some other degenerate human system based on greed and decrepitude, dog eat dog or worse.. which tends to be the average human beings lowest common denominator in the modern world, or perhaps even their highest.
What the hell are you talking about, slavery was practised by basically every traditional society.

>This modern unity of morals you speak and strive towards, is the same unity that ants experience being crushed under a boot. conditioned incrementally to remain in the dim twilight of perception to understand that this current situation is a ‘mr. softee’ version, very palatable, like strawberry yogurt ice cream, minus the barbed wire and machine guns.. but just as fatal, perhaps even more so than it was in the ancient world.

Making fancifull poetry, doesnt mean you are saying anything.

>>15432827
So you believe in the class struggle/class conflict narrative?

We cannot continue this discussion, you have been conditioned beyond saving.

>>15432833
>So you believe in the class struggle/class conflict narrative?
>We cannot continue this discussion, you have been conditioned beyond saving.

No, you just have to pretend I am a communist, because you lost the debate.

I have no idea what you could say in return. Obviously you dont think a master using his slaves for sexual pleasure is right, or you would have said so out right.

But nothing Schuon did was untraditional.

>>15432847
First of all, if we are to consider the "lost" Golden Age, the actual Primordial Tradition that Guénon is talking in most of his books, you should also understand the historical premises that this kind of Primordial Tradition or Golden Age meant in historical periods.

The current age we live is Kali Yuga and has been for the last 4000-5000 years. The fact that we are speaking of Tradition in this sense should be revealing enough that the aspects of Kali Yuga would make an appearance in Greek civilization to our Modern Civilization in different forms is without doubt a logical conclusion if one is to accept the Four Yugas or Hesiod's division of 4 ages.

The fact that you are treating this modern period, namely the current Western civilization, as the return to an Golden Age (that according to you, never existed) is revealing enough that you are trying to approach
1) Traditionalism from the perspective of Modernism

We cannot continue this discussion. Your view of history is linear. It is Primitivism -> Modernism and we are now at the Peak in our evolution.

According to you, there has never been a so-called "Fall of Man", because we have been in a linear ascent type of historical periods and now we have entered the Golden Age.

What are you doing in this thread?

>>15432876
I am not a traditionalist, I dont think in terms of a Golden Age. I dont see history in a linear fashion, you do.

But it doesnt matter, you say all these insane things, because you have no arguments!

Do you think having sex with a slave girl because she is your property is bad, yes or no?

Can you awnser this?

>What are you doing in this thread?

You are weak.

>>15432908
>Do you think having sex with a slave girl because she is your property is bad, yes or no?

Like the American slave owners who impregnated their Afro-American cotton-picker women?

There is so much possible scenarios in this kind of setting. Some of the slaves, who were frequently raped and bore children to their owners, got to the "liking" of their master and perhaps had an elevated status in the "slave farmer" of the owner.

Some slaves might have even made their way up to royal courts, in a more ancient periods.

This kind of rape of slave girls probably happened more in American slave farms, than in traditional societies.

>>15432932
>Like the American slave owners who impregnated their Afro-American cotton-picker women?
>There is so much possible scenarios in this kind of setting. Some of the slaves, who were frequently raped and bore children to their owners, got to the "liking" of their master and perhaps had an elevated status in the "slave farmer" of the owner.
>Some slaves might have even made their way up to royal courts, in a more ancient periods.
>This kind of rape of slave girls probably happened more in American slave farms, than in traditional societies.
Nice, still not awnsering are you!

So again!

Do you think having sex with a slave girl because she is your property is bad, yes or no?

>>15432935
>muh property!
>Muh PROPERTY!

You are clearly a Marxist. Conditioned and brainwashed by materialism. You are thinking of people as substance, as property, as class strugle, as elements in friction against each other.

We cannot discuss this subject. I know you are a conformist and marxist piece of shit who thinks within context of hierarchy pyramids within hierarchy pyramids, upside-down triangles fucking shadow pyramid loving cocksucker. Fucking pawn. Fucking conformist rapist murderer.

>>15432946
>You are clearly a Marxist. Conditioned and brainwashed by materialism. You are thinking of people as substance, as property, as class strugle, as elements in friction against each other.
>We cannot discuss this subject. I know you are a conformist and marxist piece of shit who thinks within context of hierarchy pyramids within hierarchy pyramids, upside-down triangles fucking shadow pyramid loving cocksucker. Fucking pawn. Fucking conformist rapist murderer.

Whats the matter, why cant you awnser, just a yes or a no, why do you diddly daddle around the subject!

Do you really think me supporting laws and legislations that go back from the Middle Ages to the Early Modern Age (before Marx was born), make me a communist?

Seriously, just be a man and awnser this question:

Do you think having sex with a slave girl because she is your property is bad, yes or no?

>>15432586
>Have traditionalists ever given true reason, or explanation, for the molestation case of Schuon?

They dismiss it as lies when it's obviously true judging by his overall behaviour. This is a guy who claimed the Virgin Mary would visit him naked and so he decided to spend the rest of his life naked as much as possible.

Schuon is peak hack, and Guenon for all his failings knew that Schuon was a weirdo who was going to destroy his movement.

>>15432826
They couldn't at least draw the white suit and sword for Serrano and the long head for Guenon?

In Islam it is perfectly normal to marry girls as young as 12 and 13. Western countries are the ones with strange obsession with this because of puritan history. Schuon was a great man and you want to smear his name online like this? What do you get out of this? Why not just ignore when people have other religious beliefs from you?

>>15433181
Schuon was hardly a Muslim. He was a syncretist and he told his "Muslim" followers they could drink alcohol.

Muhammad fucked a 9 year old and french kissed little boys. A 9 year old girl doesn't want to have sex with a creepy 54 year old dude.

>>15433245
Why this kind of syncretism is allowed to Schuon and other traditionalists, yet they warn against "going against" Tradition?

They eat pig, they drink alcohol, they smoke, they have sexual scandals

Why are they above the restrictions of normal muslims? Even Guénon wore a ring that had the word "AUM" inscribed on it (Hindu word related to eternity/divinity, considered idolatry in Muslim countries)

Why are they allowed to do thinks that are Haram to normal muslims, yet they display themselves as the preservers of the true Tradition?

>>15433290
It was really only Schuon and the few people who congregated around him. Guenon, Coomaswamy, Borella, Pallis didn't involve themselves with weird syncretism

>oh no Guenon wore a ring!!!
Om is a name for God, it doesn't take much imagination to reconcile that with Islam if you believe that both Hinduism and Islam come from God. There have been various muslims throughout history who have said that Hinduism is also a revealed/true religion and there is a long history of sufi-hindu interaction, dialogue, mutual learning etc. The hanafi madhab followed by the Mughals ruled that the Hindus should be classified as a people of the book. Hinduism is one of the national religions of muslim-majority Indonesia because the Hindus of Bali put out publications to other Indonesians making it clear that Hinduism really believes in one supreme creator God who is without any equal.

>>15433149
>so he decided to spend the rest of his life naked as much as possible.
The kind of modesty of the naked body is also fairly modern.

>>15433181
>In Islam it is perfectly normal to marry girls as young as 12 and 13. Western countries are the ones with strange obsession with this because of puritan history.
Traditionalism means rape and pedophilia. Embrace the modern world people!

>>15433290
being a syncretist is pretty much just a sneaky way of declaring yourself a prophet, or a mystic. You are picking and choosing from various traditions what you want to include as the true religion, you are yourself the authority.

>>15433290
>Why this kind of syncretism is allowed to Schuon and other traditionalists, yet they warn against "going against" Tradition?

Because Traditionalism is ultimately a failed project. They're syncretic while constantly saying "We're not syncretic, we're fighting syncretism!" Sort of how Nietzsche was a nihilist while claiming he was fighting nihilism.