/lit/ - Literature

>>15933005
>> can challenge the user both mentally with the story and technically with gameplay
well one things certain and thats YOURE mentally challenged

>>15933005

>>15933005
this reet thinks novels are for stories

>>15933029
What are they for? It has a plot, characters, and storytelling devices. It is a story at its core. The themes are only reflected by the story. The story is the groundwork for everything.

>>15933016
Ad hominem, not an argument. There are plenty of very difficult games that take serious thought to beat

>>15933005
>Have video games surpassed novels as a storytelling medium?
No. Mediums can only become "art" (the term is a bit annoying here because even that seems like I'm saying "similar to great visual arts" which complicates my point unintentionally) when they use their elements to form something great that (ideally) only that medium can really do. Video games will never have the prose of a Ulysses or a Blood Meridian because they can't afford to focus that much on one part of the game. Which comes to a flaw that absolutely cripples video game artistry: budgets and company policies. Compare Blood Meridian and Red Dead 2; the night-and-day contrast of sincerity and the resonance left on those who felt it is staggering. At this point, video games rarely can "get away" with being good art.
>Shouldn't they be respected just like any other forms of literary art?
Yes. Video games are fantastic and fun and are still new. The questions of agency and free-will alone make the medium an absolute standout in terms of potential, and some games (MGS2 and Bioshock come to mind) have done a great job at engaging this. The previously mentioned production cost problem is still there, but hopefully game-making will be cheaper in the future.

>>15933041
>What are they for? It has a plot, characters, and storytelling devices. It is a story at its core. The themes are only reflected by the story. The story is the groundwork for everything.
You are too stupid to be alive, my god.

>>15933064
Not an argument. I always find it funny how people cannot even produce an argument against it. They've just been taught by their parents that video games have to be a "Waste of time" so they don't even bother trying to see artistic value in them/.

>>15933089
>people cannot even produce an argument against it
I protest! I provided an argument against your claim that games surpass novels in the first section of my previous post: >>15933055 .

>>15933118
i wasn't responding to the ad hominem, not you

Video games are art by your definition because they have the gameplay element mixed in with text and visuals and music that no other medium can do. Nothing else has the interactive element.

>>15933055
Good post

Where's the stupid faggot who kept insisting that the budget costs for film and vidya will never be manageable for a small team? Despite decadal trends showing the opposite.

>>15933029
Or that games are for stories for that matter.

>>15933041
Both are for expression for the purpose of celebration when they are pure and sincere in their craft. Otherwise, they are tools for propaganda.

>>15933005
>Persona 4
I can easily tell that you are a smelly fat virgin with no friends, so I would not waste time reading your mental diarrhea.

>>15933136
>Nothing else has the interactive element.
Films do that and are interpretable which is a clear but indirect and limited form of interaction.

>>15933149
> you are a smelly fat virgin with no friends
> posts nocturne, literally the epitome of a no-life tryhard jrpg

>>15933156
Cry more, stupid personababbie.

>>15933154
You don't have any option to choose the plot direction of a film. In games you can make choices that impact the ending.

>>15933005
The medium that has the place the novel had before are tv (or netflix, prime etc.) series. They are in this sense the "true" succesor of the 19th century novel. They also follow the same structure serial novels had. Anyways, It's pretty stupid and useless which medium is "superior", each one is different and would be good in different terms.

>>15933136
Sure, but that's what I'm saying. I took issue with your idea that they surpassed the novel. The novel can't be surpassed by gaming just as it can't by film or music; the things that a novel is truly great for are things that a novel itself can only do. I also think if your question is "why are games considered a waste of time", that can also be answered by our cost-question. Video games are still too new to be affordable to be made by one author (some great indie pixel games and such are good signs, but limited ones) and usually have a corporate writing style that doesn't come across as literary. Rare auteurs like Kojima and Taro (even if you dislike them) are optimistic counterexamples. In summation, I would say that it's pointless to worry about whether games are better or worse than books/movies/music because they're all just too different from eachother. But at the same time don't be bothered by the fact that people are writing it off because as games get cheaper to make and more new writers who know how to become that weird and new "game-author" figure appear on the scene, the medium's worth will become more self-evident.

>>15933185
you are probably right. I am just optimistic and think there should soon come someone that really brings dignity to the medium.

>>15933005
Obviously the question is ridiculous in regards to classics, but I always wondered why so many adults love shit like Harry Potter and other YA but don't care for anime or vidya. It does everything better: plotting, villains, action, supporting casts, self-insert potential, waifus, writing.

>>15933005
They have the potential to do so.

>>15933166
Actually you can. Fan cuts, cut scenes, and disc alternative endings.

>>15933005
obviously not. Films never surpassed novels at storytelling, and video games are just poorly written films that are also hampered by having less control over pacing and the need to include actual gameplay which is various repetitive actions that likely distract from the story

they can be pretty good at immersion and, like film, the visual aspect widens the potential art that goes into the product. Unfortunately since most video games are corporate sweatshop AAA productions or trying to emulate them in some way, 'art' is usually totally absent from them

OP isn't necessarily stupid, just thoroughly undereducated. Like you would have to ignore all the Shakespeare that is forced down your throat past age 16 to end up at this conclusion.

>>15933225
that's not during the film. You can't just yell out in the cinema, "change the scene I want to explore more of this element"

>>15933240
> Films never surpassed novels at storytelling,
extremely debatable.

>>15933149
>Love the bosses
>Find dungeon-grinding as fun as paying taxes
Well, I guess I'll have a chance to not get filtered when I try TurboTax Remastered.

>>15933270
Economically-deprived-neighbourhood-core

>>15933259
>You don't have any option to choose the plot direction of a film.
pussy changed goalpost to
>that's not during the film.
no shit? why'd you retreat to this narrow thought, coward?

>>15933389
What are you talking about. No viewer can change the film. The film isn't designed with viewer choice in mind. What sort of films do you watch lmao

>>15933389
Not the guy you're arguing with but i think you're trying to describe theatre lmao

>>15933270
It's not debatable at all, films are literally a commercial product built with millions of compromises in mind to fit into tight constraints just to even be presentable at the box office. It's a fucking worthless medium, just like video games.

>>15933408
So are novels. You realize that novelists have to make a living too. You can say there is an element of practicality with everything.

Dickens, Dostoevsky, Balzac, all had to serialize their works to make money.
> inb4 I am a better writer than them

>>15933055
>The questions of agency and free-will alone make the medium an absolute standout in terms of potential, and some games (MGS2 and Bioshock come to mind) have done a great job at engaging this.
If you think MGS2 and Bioshock (especially Bioshock) are somehow "artistic achievements", then you can go back to /v/ just like OP.

>>15933414
My point isn't about capitalism, it's about how film can never reach its "full" potential because you can never put everything you want in your film like you can in an novel. 2 hours long is the fucking standard, money budgets are a real concern.

>>15933185
>some great indie pixel games and such are good signs
HAHAHAHAH AHAHAHHA AHAHHAHAHAH AHAHHAHAHAH AHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA *gasp* HAHAHAHA AHHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHHAHAHA OH NO HAHAHAHHAHAH

>>15933435
>you can never put everything you want in your film like you can in an novel.
Why not?

>>15933435
You're not going to convince him anon. The sheer amount of artistic and intellectual catch up he needs to make is never going to be realised in a fucking 4chan thread. Sometimes it's better just to leave it.

>>15933415
More like a sign of the industry having people who are considering questions of medium than artistic achievements. You have to remember how new video games are. They're still waiting for their Greek miracle.

>>15933005
>> can use both music and visuals in addition to text
not exclusive to video games.
>> can challenge the user both mentally with the story and technically with gameplay
irrelevant to artistic value
>> the experience can more be related easier between players (common image of the character, etc.)
you lack spatial iq
>> you aren't guaranteed to get through it like a movie or a book. You actually have to prove yourself with gameplay or you go back and have to redo parts
irrelevant to artistic value, and also a false equivalence due to the fact most gamer brainlets can't even sit through a novel past the level of harry potter.
>Considering how popular video games have become, shouldn't they be respected just like other forms of literary art?
not until a video game has a genuine masterpiece (it won't considering how strongly video games align with the consumerist culture)
>I've never felt emotional connections to a novel, but I sure have to the story of certain video games.
that's because you're a manchild raised on anime, has nothing to do with the artistic value of video games.
>The addition of music and visuals just makes it so much better as a medium.
no, it simply adds more quantity to the medium, it doesn't enhance the strengths.

>>15933466
>that's because you're a manchild raised on anime, has nothing to do with the artistic value of video games.

Yeah exactly. It's actually sad looking at OP argue; you'd have to have gone through such an awful schooling system combined with complete misdirection in personal pursuits to actually hold OP's beliefs.

>>15933005
No. Books are the master of narrative since they can describe someone thinking to themself. They can describe inner monologue, while movies can't. And whatever movie does ends up being comedic since no one speaks out loud when talking to themselves, which movies trying to portray inner monologue and deep emotion need to do (even more hilarious would be text that expresses this in the movie, since it would be so out of place). This means that whenever a movie wants to express the emotion of the character, it can only do it though conversation or appearance. The former causes movie characters to seem like NPC's without an inner monologue, the latter is what better, more talented directors do (though it will never reach the emotional depth of inner monologue in the book, since the book can actually show you the thoughts of the character, while the movie, in showing the appearance of a character in a scene, can only signify that they are feeling some emotion or thinking about some thing). So it is an inferior artform specifically as a storytelling medium.

>persona 4
>good history


Go back to whatever boards You are from

>>15933495
What I said for film also goes for video-games, too.

>>15933005
Video games?

You mean like for kids?

>>15933450
There is not a single film where its creator can decisively "This is EXACTLY how I wanted this to come out". A film cannot conceivably have the best possible actors, the best possible effects, and seemingly limitless time or money in its production. Like I said, it's a very compromised work for this reason. Those authors you mentioned though admittedly compromised to an extent, still exercise a creative freedom film makers simply do not have the luxury of having.

>>15933089
>no mom ! i'm not wastonf My life with vidya , i am just seeing art

>>15933495
You have the right conclusion but completely idiotic reasoning as to why lmao. This thread is OED grotesque it's like watching bloodsports

>>15933520
*decisively say

>>15933055
>Mediums can only become "art" (the term is a bit annoying here because even that seems like I'm saying "similar to great visual arts" which complicates my point unintentionally) when they use their elements to form something great that (ideally) only that medium can really do. Video games will never have the prose of a Ulysses or a Blood Meridian because they can't afford to focus that much on one part of the game.
Why would a game ever want to capture the prose of a great novel? You said right in your previous sentence that a medium can only become art if "they use their elements to form something great that (ideally) only that medium can really do". So you should not be wishing video-games to become poor imitations of the prose of great novels, you should be wishing them to develop those features that are singular and unique to that medium alone, in this case interactivity.

>>15933454
>You have to remember how new video games are. They're still waiting for their Greek miracle.
I don't see why it would come. Video Games are a product of modernity, and modernity is disgusting and depraved.

All this argument about film is slightly retarded because, at least in terms of literary analysis, nobody ever analyses a 'film', they analyse the script/screenplay whatever. In which case it ends up essentially being theatre (nuance of stage becomes nuance of screen, which is basically the same) as you would look at the literature's potential rather than an actual finished film, in the same way Cymbeline can use metatheatricality for humour or upset on paper but must choose in an actual production, for example.

Sometimes, less is more

NAME 1(ONE) GAME THAT IS COMPARABLE TO MASTERPIECE OF OTHER MEDIUMS LIKE LITERATURE , MUSIC, VISUAL ARTS

>>15933175
>Anyways, It's pretty stupid and useless which medium is "superior", each one is different and would be good in different terms.
>>15933185
>In summation, I would say that it's pointless to worry about whether games are better or worse than books/movies/music because they're all just too different from eachother.

Yes, of course they are different from eachother. What we are trying to do is rank them.

>>15933575
[game i like]

>>15933520
>There is not a single film where its creator can decisively "This is EXACTLY how I wanted this to come out".
But why not? I don't see why this can't be the case. Why can't a movie producer ever select all the right conditions for his movie?

Also, this is my second post in the thread. Sorry if I confused you for the other guy.

>>15933585
Because film is limited by reality while literature is limited only by imagination, skill, and talent of the author.

>>15933240
>they can be pretty good at immersion and, like film, the visual aspect widens the potential art that goes into the product.
considering games have control over every one of your senses and you can interact with them, so that you could be in a videogame right now without your knowing about it, |I think "pretty good" is a bit of an understatement.

>>15933591
not with cgi and modern animation. You can just draw it or animate it if it doesn't exist.

Stop consuming cybernetic simulacrum.

>>15933591
Still not seeing why it can't be the case that someone could produce a movie with the actors they want, the effects they want, and the running time they want. In fact, I'm sure there's plenty of movies that did turn out this way from the creator's point of view.

>>15933544
That's exactly what I was saying. I was saying games can't have great prose because OP asked if "games have surpassed" novels. It was in response to that. I go on to say in that post that it's silly to expect one medium to have the same traits as another.
>>15933578
>What we are trying to do is rank them
It'll always devolve into shitposting, Which I guess is all good if that's what you're after.

>>15933610
I'm not arguing that the creator can't be satisfied with the creation, just that the creation can never live up to the full potential they would want out of a true masterpiece.

>>15933606
holy based...

>>15933554
I would say there was an insane amount of disgusting and depraved corruption in the early days of film, but the voices and ideas of certain auteurs have made some really spectacular movies. I don't think it should be much different for games as they become cheaper to make.

>>15933527
Then argue against it, you fucking moron. "You are dumb! You are stupid!" What is this, a fucking playground? Make an argument, or shut the fuck up, since you are just exposing that you have nothing to say, and no reasoning to back up anything you say.

The most artistic video games are on the same level as Goosebumps.

>>15933634
>the creation can never live up to the full potential they would want out of a true masterpiece
Who is they?

>>15933646
Jeez I didn't know they were that good? Any reccs?

>>15933625
>It'll always devolve into shitposting
not if you define a definitive positive value. If you can do that, then you can rank artforms based on their utility towards this value.

>>15933646
What video games are you talking about?

I find it kind of weird that this thread went surprisingly well. Very little shitposting, very little name calling, some decently nuanced discussion, healthy disagreements.

/v/, of all places, for a decent religious discussion.

>>15933689

you're not on /v/ you stupid faggot

>>15933689
wrong tab open, whoops,

>>15933670
You'd have to find a damn near unanimous agreement of which value should be definitive though. I mean, how do you factor things like "includes musical accompaniment" against "metanarrative potential"?

>>15933702
You can show how musical accompaniment can be utilized to produce metanarrative potential.

>>15933606
baste
although ted would probably consider literature as a surrogate activity and also burn every book in existence
which i can tolerate, so long we destroy the technological society

persona is a series for pseud weeaboo manchildren.
>but 1-3!
lol

>>15933575
Dark Souls

>>15933005
No

>>15933606
Based