/lit/ - Literature

All the good stories were already told. Now it's just thrice-regurgitated shlock.

>>16167400
wrong with what?

The writers don’t have a background in reading actual literature.

>>16167400
Overemphasis on "world-building," failure to move beyond Tolkien or only doing so in a superficial way, it is often totally humorless or full of cringey "jokes." There's a lot more. Also fuck steampunk, that's the worst shit ever

>>16167442
Or to say in other way, put everything on the backstory (with varying degrees of success) and little on the actual current story and characters?

>>16167479
Not him, but modern writers seem obsessed with their faggy little complex magic systems, languages, religions, and so on. It all means nothing when the writing is turgid and the characters aren’t realized.

>>16167400
Whats the point, its not real, you arent learning anything, I mean, so what if you killed the dragon using your magical elfdick, you could just as well say that you killed the 4589bnhdfbi using your asfhjfsdh dfjdsfjsd43 because those words hold no meaning.

>>16167408
Every story has been told. But not the execution of every idea of every story has been told.

I dunno, maybe nothing's wrong with it. I've never read any. The idea of learning all this background info on fictional geography, fictional social relations, fictional magic systems, and so just seems like too much ado before anything interesting can happen. I'm living and I'm going to die in the real world, and I want stories that I can relate to that situation, and I don't need all these theatrics getting in the way. I can't relate to some dork elf with a talisman of +2 defense and potion of ashtar's sacred revival juice, or whatever.

>>16167442
Uh oh, smooth brain can't handle 2 sentences describing a world.

>>16167512
no thats just about opposite, the exact same human emotions will be repeated century after century and that will never change

>>16167526
What does that have to do with the execution of an idea.

>>16167442
>Overemphasis on "world-building," failure to move beyond Tolkien or only doing so in a superficial way

Examples?

>>16167513
My little brother who liked Star Trek asked my why I disliked it so much, I told him watching the series with him is like watching a bunch cardboard people walking around in an ugly sterile labyrinth, constantly making meaningless statements.

I think thats hell.

>>16167400
Fantasy is for little babies.

Oh, modern fantasy in particular? Same problem as all fantasy. If you read fantasy books, you are dumber than a 12 year old.

>>16167541
What do you read, anon?

>>16167533
>Examples?
You cant write fantasy without worldbuilding.

If someone describes life in The Haque high society, or in the Indonesian colony, thats somewhat distant, but the author doesnt need to explain what The Haque or Dutch Indonesia is, thats simply real world knowledge any semi-educated Dutch person has.

On the other hand you can describe the wizard shomimoor traveling to the fabled city of shazoos, without first spending a long time describing the ins and outs of that city, so that people can appreciate it.

>>16167422
This

Your typical sci-fi or fantasy writer is an "ideas guy" who only settled for writing books because they didn't have any connections
that would get them into the TV or video game industries, which is where they actually wish they were working.

>>16167512
Yes, but our hypernetworked society ensures conformity of thought. People are too plugged in. Their ideas don't have time to grow independently, before they're subconsciously slotted into a handful of overdone archetypes and regress to the mean.

>>16167553
>TV industry
>Video game industry

If you're making me choose, I'd rather do books.

>>16167535
I am suffering through Star Trek TOS. It is often presented as noble and groundbreaking, but many episodes simply consist of people engaging in very, very poorly choreographed fights. The captors of the protagonists are always comically incompetent, plot conveniences abound, the show is full of philosophically shallow tropes, the characters get into situations that could easily have been avoided, etc.. I have seen complaints that the current iterations of Star Trek are abominations, but TOS fucking sucks in the first place.

The ONLY passable episodes are "City at the Edge of Forever" and the episode with the Horta creature (BOTH in the first season). All other episodes range from utterly mediocre to comically terrible.

>>16167546
Books whose titles are written in character sets not reproducible here. The community has deliberately resisted any attempts at transliteration.

>>16167562
>Handful of overdone archetypes
You mean just basic tropes that every story has to have?

>>16167546
Mathematics and physics research monographs, journal articles, occasionally textbooks for reference, as well as writing my own research, particularly in algebraic geometry.

>>16167568
It's a show mostly geared towards a younger audience anon. What were you expecting?

>>16167568
Television shows from the episodic era were a tough form for storytelling. When an episode is like 20 or 40 minutes long, and each episode must be independent of the others, you barely have time to develop an idea.

>>16167583
I now realize that. However, many (quite old, adult) fans insisted otherwise and continue to insist otherwise. Also, I have seen clips from many further iterations of Star Trek (TNG, DS9, etc.) containing scenes not appropriate for children.

>>16167400
too influenced by anime unless its written by a literal boomer (RIP Gene Wolfe)
ironically fantasy is fun to write but not to read

>>16167592
I believe this to be the case also. The first season of the show was better, I think, primarily because Roddenberry had time to refine his ideas. The inception of the first season episodes was often from 1963-1964, hence could be refined and polished, whereas the later seasons where written in a much shorter period before airtime as demanded by the financial and scheduling realities of television networks.

>>16167598
>fought in Korea
>baby boomer
eh...

>>16167575
No. Higher-order structures like "zombies", "wizard school", or "something-punk".

>>16167598
who the fuck allowed you to post my goddess you cunt

>>16167568
I was using Next Generation as an example, its complete autism tier, I enjoyed Deep Space Nine a little bit more because it did have some character development and a bit of character.

Another genre I hate is anime, people also dont seem to understand that watching a show and watching badly drawn unexpressive faces is very horrible to someone who doesnt have autism like my little brother.

I tried to explain it to him, they arent real people, you are missing out on a lot of the emotional subtext that would be present.

>>16167422
There is Talebs quote about how the only people who read short stories are those who want to write stories and it applies to fantasy. Most fantasy read nothing other than SFF and maybe the occasional bit of pop-history,

>>16167400
A sequence of terrible influences. Conan, then Tolkein, then D&D, then Warhammer brings in the cringe 'scifi/fantasy' hybrid, then Wheel of Time and Song of Ice and Fire, then anime and isekai finish it off. Terrible things get popular and people imitate those popular things, pushing the genre to be continually worse and worse.

>>16167665
>anime is a genre

>>16167535
Star Trek's setting (at least in TNG) is so technologically advanced and "idealistic" that its hard to create meaningful challenges for the main characters that don't feel like they were pulled out of the writer's asses.
The federation has no money, no serious internal social conflicts, and everyone owns magical machines that can create whatever they want out of thin air. Their ships can travel faster than the speed of light without having to worry about navigation or fuel, they've got transporters that can beam the crews from place to place instantly, and everyone in the galaxy is constantly in contact with everyone else via subspace communication.
The heroes have it so easy that in order for an episode to have some kind of conflict, the writers either have to invent some kind of exception to all the previously-established rules (transporter malfunction, ship hit by some kind of evil space cloud, etc.) or have them have to deal with some unenlightened alien race. It doesn't make for good writing.

>>16167699
Anime is weaponised autism.

>>16167691
Then what the fuck do you like? And what makes fantasy good? This is just endless contrarianism and shitting on everything for the sake of being a pretentious hipster.

>>16167702
There is a potential for conflict, human nature against the technocratic all-powerful, all-seeing state, but watching the show is like watching a propaganda piece, there was one episode called The Drumhead, which got kinda into this particular territory, but the conflict was resolved at the end of the episode.

Which is another layer that makes Star Trek horrible, on one side you have the dehumanized, labyrintine, techno-schizoid, ferry-wheel, on the other hand there is the state as total-itarian entity of the state, which has complete power and monopoly over transportation, food, human values, etc.

the fantasy publishers gatekeep writers with good ideas and only publish women and ethnic minorites pushing the current political agenda

as for self-published stuff there is so much of it the good stuff gets drowned out and isn't advertised

>>16167691
>Tolkein

Was he a bad writer?

It's sci-fi

>>16167665
Completely agree about anime. The "humor" is the most godawful unfunny shit imaginable, the plots are cheesy, the characters are mostly just reused archetypes, and the animation is usually worse than Western animation anyways. I have a bunch of friends who like Shounen and have gotten me to watch it, and it's just a bunch of boring characters constantly pulling new powers out of their asses so nerds can wank about how powerful these fictional characters are. Don't even get me started on SOL, either. Eva is the only anime I can say I've truly enjoyed (and Ito's stuff if you count Manga too), and even that comes with the caveat that the first half is filled with juvenile monster-of-the-week shit.

>>16167400
The problem is that, unlike Tolkien and CS Lewis, modern fantasy writers don't have a point to what they're writing. For example, Tolkien utilized Catholic theology and Nordic mythology towards crafting a rich narrative that decried industrial capitalism and the abandonment of traditional agrarian values. To make this point, he made a rich universe with likeable characters and well-written mythology to give readers a stake into the world he had created, which would make readers empathize with his views on preserving this life. Meanwhile, modern fantasy writers don't have any themes or philosophies they want to expound, they just want to write "le awesome magic system dragons medieval charicatures". All great writers, even in genre fiction, write with a point; McCarthy decries the Darwinist conflict of man, Ligotti laments over life itself, etc. Most modern writers don't have that purpose or that philosophical background, in particular sci-fi and fantasy writers.

>>16168195
Lol, everything you said about anime is completely wrong. Also, what's wrong with power scaling a show and debating fictional characters?

>>16168195
Also every anime fan is in agreement that most animes are bland and that SOL is garbage. You have to sift through the shit to find the gems.

>>16168195
>Tolkien and CS Lewis, modern fantasy writers don't have a point to what they're writing
Simply saying, modern authors do not have proper education or talent for writing (as R. Scott Bakrer, who has proper education but is not able to tell interesting stories withot tons of fillers)

>>16167512
i disagree, there are plenty of knew stories

>>16167665
ur missing the point, your looking at the simplified hot bodies, fan service and young cute facial features.

Like how a charature is easier to recognise than a person becuase it maps to your brain view of a person.

So in anime you get more cutes/sexyiness input per unti of time because your brain needs to do less translation.

This has nothing to do with facial animation.

Go and whatch a mime if you want that.

>>16167400
its too inspired by shitty anime, D&D and video games to be compelling

>>16169279
How do we fix modern fantasy?

>>16168195
The lack of belief in anything is true. Hence the popularity of grimdark, which generally seems to be a nihilist commentary on how nothing really matters and man is cruel to man.

>>16167645
t. Jabu

>>16167852
Yes. I'm a huge sff fan and LotR is some of the most boring and dry prose I have ever read.

>>16169627
What authors would you recommend to anyone who wants to write fantasy but think beyond Tolkien?

>>16169639
Brandon Sanderson

>>16169639
Mervyn Peake BTFO'd Tolkien during his own time.

>>16167400
Under Heaven, Bobby Dollar, Stormlight Archives, The Poppy War, and The Rage of Dragons are all good.

>>16169644
>>16169654
>branderson
These are bait posts

>>16167400
It was always bad, don't let age fool you, it's a disease of the Anglo.

>>16167535
>>16167568

Some of the guys who worked on Star Trek shows worked on the reimagined Battlestar Galactica. Maybe you guys just don't like science fiction.

>>16167511
>its not real, you arent learning anything
This is true of all fiction and most non-fiction

>>16169644
Lol

>>16171031
What was the context to the tweets?

>>16167504
>turgid

>>16167582
>Mathematics and physics research monographs, journal articles, occasionally textbooks for reference, as well as writing my own research, particularly in algebraic geometry.

>>16167400
It has strayed too far from the heart and soul of fantasy: God.
No longer is it a genre of lessons. It is now a genre of decadence and corruption.
Bring back LOTR style fantasy.

>>16171115
>Bring back LotR style
>With big tiddies

Fantasy, in conjunction with YA and Romance, is without a doubt the single most commercial minded genre out there. Nothing is "wrong" with fantasy, fantasy simply being the porno-parody of the Epic is easily broken down into various little niche fetishes/marketing categories like on the sidebar of a tubesite. Heroic, Epic, Dark, Grimdark, Comical, -wave,-punk,-core, Low, High, Urban, Gothic, Hard, Soft. And, yet, despite this plethora of supposed options they all end up feeling interchangeable as the same limited field of possible events and characters are endlessly lined up and knocked down. Ironically, and somewhat hopefully, it is the individual voice of the author, when sufficiently developed, that shines through this smokescreen of pseudo-choice and gives a work some sense of identity.

World-Building is another area of contention. Some people try and disqualify World-Building in totality, and this is an impossible task, merely because without it you would be writing in a void. However, I have noticed a significant problem arise from emphasis placed on World-Building. That is its creeping overlap with what once meant exposition, and as various rules are drawn up on what makes for 'good' or 'bad' world building the consensus has settled on a linear spoonfeeding of information. This limits even more the available options for constructing a narrative was readers come to expect a front-loading of all possible information in the form of mini-lectures that character and narrative must bow to. Contextual storytelling is diminished as everything is required to be spelled out.

Finally World-Building itself fits right in to the highly commercialised nature of modern fantasy and is arguably more important to the peripheral industry built around fantasy in the form of how-to-books, self-promotional lectures by authors, youtube series, blog posts, all driving clicks and ad-revenue. The reason for this popularity is largely because anyone can do it, and so you have World-Building communities thriving on social-media sites full of people drawing up rules and guides, perfecting and refining their OCs, but never actually writing a word of narrative fiction despite being 'experts' on the matter.

>>16167400
it's not berserk

It’s modern and it’s fantasy.

>>16167413
Your face.

>>16168195
>Eva
I found this show horrible, worse than fan fiction I have read. It is just teenage melodrama that appeals to edgy kids.
>>16168240
>SOL bad
why don’t you elaborate without using any ad hominems, I don’t watch much anime but SOL is the only enjoyable genre because they are episodic, have funny plots, and good OST/animations.

Theres a lot of talk of anime in here and though I am not a fan personally of the delivery I am really into the structure of the classic western-popular shows. Like the narrative arc where there is an archetypal hero progressively improving against increasingly deadly foes to near absurdity

I love that direction and would love to read a novel that took that in an engaging direction

>>16172882
Wuxia, or something idk. Chinese novels were Taoist warriors practicing semen-retention become gods that fire weaponized multiverses out of their fingertips at each other.

>>16167400
Is there an essay or video that highlights the issuee of fantasy pointed out here and more?

The closest thing I could find was the essay Real Fantasy by Kantbot but it's rather poorly written and was recently deleted out of Autistic Mercury.

>>16171039
Tolkien

Fantasy, implies.. you know fantasy, as in imagination?

A genera defined by it's cliches, expected cliches, which you'dd need to even fall within it.
Kinda puts a dampener on the whole fantasy aspect.

I like anime! partly because I'm an artist and understand the painstaking process even with outsourcing to 3rd world countries!

>>16168195

I don't think Tolkien was that much against capitalism because the Dwarves in the Lord of the Rings seem very much like Capitalists since they procure metals and ore and create things that they sell to other people and they also tended to accrue wealth and keep it. Even the Elves, I think, they didn't know much about war or made their own weapons, so they went to the Dwarves and there was an exchange of goods, Elves gave the Dwarves... well I can't remember, but Googling it, I think the various websites are saying that the Elves gave the Dwavers jewelries of some sort. Also, socialism/communism very much uses industrialism and have ruined the Earth doing so, even Communist China today is causing massive pollution. Communist/socialist may think that Marxism is all about peace and such, that it's antiwar, when that ideology is really suited for war production and waging war; the AK-47 is the most widely used weapon all across the world.

>>16167400

GoT ruined modern fantasy