/lit/ - Literature

>>16509942
How ya doing?

>>16509942
What's one thing you understand about him that no one else knows?

>>16509942
Do you think heidegger's existentialism was influenced by Spengler's? Particularly his views on time and space.

>>16509942
Is is true we're in "winter time" and "spring time" begins in the 2200s according to him (that means a rebirth in culture, art, etc)?

>>16509942
Was he a determinist?

>>16509942
Diagnosed?

>>16509942
Name his friend/acquaintance whose name started with F

>>16509959
Good. I am content with my and the whole of western culture's future.

>>16509970
The absolute truth of his teachings and observations. (For our time and except one or two minor mistakes he made or disagreements I have with him.)

>>16510194
Am not really familiar with Heidegger to comfortably make such statements but I'd say very likely yes.

>>16510204
After life, there is only death.

>>16510722
In an organic way, yes. In a mechanical, systematic way, no.

>>16510733
No, but I am socially inept.

>>16510739
Don't know who you're talking about? Fritz Behn? Franz Seldte? Fedor Stepun?

If Western civilization is dying, will Chinese civilization replace it as the ultimate superpower? Also what's the difference between a civilization and a culture?

>>16511783
The Chinese culture has been dead for a long time. It will not replace anything as it has nothing to replace anything with. While it may be powerful in regards to military and economical matters that does not matter. It is utterly dead.

Civilization is just the name we give to the decline.

John David Ebert?

When do you expect our Caesar to come?

>>16511838
No, but he's ok.

>>16511843
Don't know when he'll be born or if he's already alive but I assume he will assume power in 2050 or earlier.

>>16511950
Are there more books on Caesarian?
And what do you think our Caesar would look like?

>>16509942
I haven't read anything from Spengler except for a small essay (Der Mensch und die Technik), should I just start with Der Untergang des Abendlandes?

Will I enjoy Spengler if I enjoyed Evola? Do they have similarities?

Would you say that reading Spengler has made you a happier person? If yes, why and how?

>>16511991
If you want to read good books read everything by Spengler. Our caesar will be a mixture of entrepreneur/socialist reformer/army leader. Essentially he'll be Cecil Rhodes, Benito Mussolini and Bernie Sanders combined. Imagine a charismatic Jeff Bezos with plans of world domination and some sort of collectivistic ideology.

Why should I follow a caesar? He will be the system’s neatest trick and I will take it upon me to prevent him from assuming leadership

>>16512012
Don't start with Decline. It's too big and too much to just understand it. I generally recommend to people who want to read Spengler to read him in this order (I'll be using some German titles as I am German and therefore know the books by those names):

>Der Mensch und die Technik
>Preußentum und Sozialismus
>Neubau des Deutschen Reiches
>Jahre der Entscheidung
>His essays and his speeches
>Decline of the West Volume 1 & 2
>Der Mensch und die Technik (again)
>Frühzeit der Weltgeschichte


I think if you liked Evola you'll like Spengler. Personally, I don't like Evola and don't think highly of him.


Spengler helped me through a bad depression. He lead me to discover Goethe and many more things I value and I consider him my intellectual mentor/father figure.

>>16509942
What was his favourite food

>>16512034
You will have no choice.

What are your thoughts on Yockey?

>>16512068
Don't really remember it that good but I think he liked a good roast.

>>16509942
Could Spengler be called an idealist and a utopianist, or was he only pessimistic regarding civilisation and culture?

>>16512103
I like him a lot. A sort of spiritual brother if you will. His life is inspiring.

>>16509942
Have you read Francis Parker Yockey's interpretation of his work in Imperium? If so, what's your analysis of it?

>>16512134
Yes, I think you could call him an idealist in the German tradition.

And regarding pessimism I'll just quote Oswald himself here:

>"No, I am not a pessimist. Pessimism means not to see any more tasks. I see so many unsolved tasks that I fear we shall have neither time nor men enough to go at them. The practical aspects of physics and chemistry have come nowhere near the limits of their possibilities. Technology has yet to reach its peak in nearly all fields. One of the major tasks still facing modern classical philology is to create an image of antiquity that will remove from the minds of our educated populace the “classical” picture, with its invitation to pedestrian idealism."

>>16512177
It is a perfectly fine interpretation. I am biased though since Yockey's and my political orientation aligns very closely.

How do i cope with me not being the next Caesar

>>16511607
>After life, there is only death.
that doesn't answer the question. what a clown lmao

>>16512695
Yes, it does answer the question. He asked if there will be a spring time after the winter phase in which the west will go through a cultural rejuvenation and I answered with a definite no.

>>16512689
Be a legionnaire.

What should I read of his?

>>16512064
>I consider him my intellectual mentor/father figure.
Same for me. The Decline of the West - the worst named book of all time - is the reason I began to take an interest in the wider view of things. There is no better mentor than a true polymath to show you why things matter.

>>16512768
no I dont wanna die for some other person

>>16512750
But that's not what Spengler said. History is cyclical in Spengler.

>>16512813
>not yet developed

>>16512822
No it isn't. He says that once a civilization reaches the end of its life cycle, that's it, it's dead. There's no coming back. A civilization matures and dies of old age just like any other organism.

>>16512768
>be one of these dead people

nah.

>>16512822
No, it's not. This is why I am the expert and you're the one asking questions. Cultures are organisms that have a definite beginning and a definite end. There's nothing cyclical about it. The spring-summer-autmn-winter comparison is a bad one btw. A better conceptualization would just be the life of a plant. It too, like a high-culture, has only one life. Spengler even rethought his relativism to some degree in his later work.

For everybody else: if anybody ever equates Spengler's work with Indian mythology because 'it's cyclical' or something they're either retarded or didn't read Spengler.

>>16512022
So Elon Musk type of person who just isn't a hack?

>>16512905
Are you that Oswald Spengler guy on youtube?

>>16512783
I explained what to read and in what order you should read it here: >>16512064

>>16512911
No. This has already been asked here: >>16511838 and answered here: >>16511950

>>16512909
In a sense yes. Almost all of the philanthropic entrepreneur types are pathetic mongrels though.

>>16512985
I think he meant this guy

Why have gold and silver been yanked from the collective psyche?

>>16512985
>>16512999
I did mean him

>>16512905
>This is why I am the expert and you're the one asking questions.
Half the people here are just shitposting in your larp thread, though. No one takes Spengler's schizoid delusions seriously.

>>16512813
I agree it's a bad name. He should have named it "The Consummation of the West". The second title: "Fragments of a morphology of world history" is much more descriptive anyway.

>>16513004
>>16512999
No, I'm not that guy. I recommend his first videos on oil though. They're good.

>>16511832
>Civilization is just the name we give to the decline.
Holy based

>>16509942
Is it true that Adorno was a big fan of Spengler?

>>16513104
Adorno was one of the few who understood Spengler but his own conclusions on Spengler are retarded and reek of decline. If I ever meet any leftist/socialist/communist who takes Adorno's approach toward Spengler and uses it to make spenglerian argument for communism/socialism or whatever ideologue adheres I will shake his hands and I will respect him a lot.

>>16513128
Here's a good quote by Adorno on Spengler:
>"The forgotten Spengler has his revenge by threatening to be right in the end. (...) Spengler has hardly found an opponent worthy of him: collective amnesia provides the escape."

Hey OP.
I believe Spengler’s timeline has been accelerated a tremendous amount via the tech boom, specifically the internet which has hastened the winter faster than most people could have predicted.

I believe we entered into a new era after WW2. Specifically due to the creation of faux neural networks.
This accelerated cultural development will cause much upheaval in many parts of society, and in many ways that we can’t yet comprehend.
Do you think that we are in the winter of the Faustian age? Or that we are in the beginning of a new age of information
pic related, our architecture already mimics what we hold sacred

>>16513154
Forget to attach pic

>>16513154
Yes, I think we're in the 'winter' of the Faustian culture's lifespan, but as I said I do not like that comparison.

We are certainly in a new age with the Internet and whatnot. I don't think any cultural development is happening right now though or will ever happen again in the West.

So no, I disagree with your general assessment. Interesting thoughts though. The Internet is certainly an interesting phenomenon.

Spengler-anon, what do you think about Russia, did the end of communism end its cultural cycle, what about Dugin and the orthodox east? Will they get stronger in the future?

>>16513154
Something to add to this >>16513218
Is that I do not believe that Spengler's timeline has been accelerated. I think the west's natural development was somewhat hindered with ww2 but nevertheless, things are going quite naturally.

Are you pic related?

>>16513263
So far I consider Russia devoid of a high culture. This is one of the points on which I have a slight disagreement with Spengler because he believed the next culture will come forth in Russia but I disagree. I see them as historyless, the same way Spengler sees Subsaharan Africans.

This could be me, the German, who has a natural dislike of all things Slavic speaking so take it with a grain of salt.

Opinion on Spengler's grandson?

>>16513290
No, but I respect his work particularly his theories whether or not there were more than the specific high cultures Spengler talks about. I especially think the separation of the Japanese from the Chinese culture is a valid theory and worth thinking about. Spengler was limited by the knowledge of his time so little mistakes like that do not disprove the overarching theme but nevertheless should be inspected and improved upon if possible.

>>16513318
Spengler did not have any children.

>>16509942

Prussian Socialism was a shitpost, right?

Have you read Sloterdijk yet? Basically a better version of Spengler

>>16513336
The book is called "Prussianism and socialism", not "Prussian socialism". It's supposed to be a comparison between English socialism (Marx) and Prussian authoritarianism. It comes out of a time in which Spengler was at the height of his international popularity and thus wanted to try politics.

>>16513356
No, I haven't but thanks for the recommendation.

>>16513154
Technology cannot have any effect by itself since it is an external manifestation of the Western will to power. It is a thought form.

>>16513318
its his grandnephew

>>16513467
I agree.

>>16513467
I disagree.

>>16509942
Do you think Spengler was murdered on Hitlers order or died a natural death?

Did Kissinger understand spengler?

>>16513533
I think he died a natural death but I am certain that he would have done and said things that would have upset the national socialist a lot more if he had lived for a few more years. I'm certain that they would have killed him if he finished and published "Deutschland in Gefahr".

>>16513554
I don't know.
I presume yes.
Kissinger said positive things about Spengler and almost all his work seems influenced by him so I regard Kissinger's relationship with Spengler positive.

I think that nowadays Spengler goes largely overlooked by the academic community mostly because of the ideological clashes of the cold war, wherein both sides wanted to portray themselves as the "end of history" and noone was interested in Spenglers theories because of that. Is that an accurate assessment or does it have different reasons?

>>16513218
>>16513467
The reason I bring the internet into the equation is because it is a high impact self-stratifying communication device.
It allows narratives to form from the bottom up rather than the top down, which hastens cultural decay as popular ideas are granted status over reality.
Bottom up narratives do a number of things, but the internet has increased “meme think” which is the layman’s way of saying information scooping within mental symbol frameworks.

While it’s an expression of Faustian will, it’s also the means by which the Faustian will is turned against itself in the increased relativism brought about by these narratives. The narratives are leveled at the layman’s Faustian Ontic sense, and thus chip away at it. Much quicker than normally would be done

>>16509942
Where do primal symbols come from?

>>16513612
I think he's mainly overlooked because most people simply do not understand him. How would you even engage with someone whose writings gave rise to people like Wittgenstein, Adorno, Yockey or Jose Antonio Primo de Rivera? How would you engage with that person if he played a fundamental part in the formulation of the nazi's ideology? Or if his way of conceptualizing meta-narratives is a sort of proto-post-modernism? How could you ever engage with someone who celebrated both rapid and massive industrialization and technological progress and spoke on behalf of the agrarian population of Europe and Germany? People generally do not understand Spengler. They didn't understand him when Decline first came out and they don't understand him now.

>>16513618
I disagree. Our forms are set. I don't think any technological advancement can accelerate or slow down the development of our culture.

>>16513749
Well maybe except for abortion.

>>16509942
What is the exact year of the classical high culture corresponds to where we are now? Is Trump really an analogue of Julian the Apostate?

>>16513749
>I don't think any technological advancement can accelerate or slow down the development of our culture.
Why?
You specified “our” so obviously other cultures can be impacted. But why not ours?

>>16513797
No lol. The current Culture War is about equivalent to the Roman Social War. These few decades are the last hurrah of democratic ideology (SJWism) before the whole system falls apart and becomes about pure power. You see it already in Trump vs Biden, who don't actually want to improve the country, they just want to impose their vision upon it.

>>16509942
No, fuck you.

>>16513838
Because our destiny is an Apocalypse caused by our machine civilization.

>>16513859
Very true. I agree with that conceptualization.

>>16509942
>>>/x/

>>16513838
That >>16513909 is right btw but in all seriousness, I meant all cultures not just ours specifically.

>>16510194
I can answer that indirectly. Both Heidegger and Spengler are obviously influenced by the philosophy of life movement (e.g. Dilthey and Bergson), that's why both of them talk a lot about Dasein. I would be interested if there is a reception of Spengler by Heidegger but I don't know of one.

>>16514009
Heidegger's black notebooks talk about Spengler.

So OP if I've read the thread correctly, you think that the Russian and Chinese civilizations are dead, and the West's is about to die soon, and that there will be no rebirth for any of them. My question is, what will take their places? Or I suppose how does a culture form?

>>16514280
Let me correct you and add something to what you said. I think Russians never had a high-culture, I think that the Chinese culture is dead and I think that the west, the Faustian culture has around 200 years left. Unlike the apollonian (Greco-Roman) culture's decline the west's decline will not be a whimper. It will be a cataclysmic event or a series of events. Climate change and technological advancements will threaten all of high man in for us unimaginable ways. Whether or not another culture will arise sometime in the future or if the Faustian culture will be the last (because of the Apocalypse it will cause) is ultimately unknowable.

Generally, high cultures form through the interaction of a people with the land they inhabit over fast stretches of time.

>>16514267
Where can I read more about this? I know they interacted somewhat but Spengler interacted with almost everybody in that time in Germany.

>>16513414
yeah but like was he trying to be retarded? I mean I'll admit I've only ever read him when I was already in the library and not sober, but he fucking reeks of some 3am scizoposting pseud

>idealism

>>16513218
>I don't think any cultural development is happening right now
how can you say that? changes in culture are impossible to measurable until a few decades after they happen. plus, even if you can't pinpoint exactly how is changing (or you can and don't like it), the unprecedented movement of people in the modern world must change culture

it occurs to me that culture is so complex that it is better understood via stereotypes and simplifications that represent it, and that since everything is recorded today (in picture, written word, videos, thousands of newspapers etc) there is too much info and we can't see the forest for the trees. too much and too detailed information about a people and the world and how they live in it makes it impossible to summarize and therefore caracterize their culture

why he don't accepts nazism when he defends a kind of national socialism?

>>16514375
Did Spengler and Carl Schmitt ever meet?

>>16514445
Spengler was a monarchist if anything. He didn't like the way Hitler appealed to the masses.

>>16514445
He didn’t like populism

>>16514538
why is he a monarchist? i think he was a aristocratic socialist who thinks everything that come before him, in the christian age, it is nothing beyond failure. in another words: he was a nietzschian who dislikes the christian world.

do he liked the roman world?

>>16514440
I agree. Many people can’t see the forest for the trees, and while the overall ptb aren’t changing, the culture certainly is.

Guenon is better.

>>16512822
why enter a thread started by someone who claims to know most about Spengler and then argue with him about the most basic bits of Spengler. Absurd

>>16512768
can't wait desu

>>16509942
What is next?

>>16512689
>dunno how that feels like

>>16514367
>Generally, high cultures form through the interaction of a people with the land they inhabit over fast stretches of time.
Whats your opinion on the Amish? Their population is growing fast and they keep buying more and more land.

>>16514915
Not that guy but the Amish are probably what Toynbee would call an "internal proletariat". They live in the civilization, but are not of the civilization. They do their own thing and keep to themselves and take no interest in the struggles of the parent civilization.

>>16514915
>Their population is growing fast and they keep buying more and more land.
For real?

>>16514981
Yes. The Amish have the potential to repopulate all the White people after the normies have sterlized and race-mixed themselves to death.

>>16513035
>>16512985
>>16512936
Hey man, great thread so far, I got a couple questions.

Firstly, there is much talk on Hitler/Mussolini being our Marius and Sulla, a foreshadowing, or straight up our Caesars but failed. What is your position on these guys, where do they fall in Spengler's timeline? I know he did not think highly of Hitler himself.

Secondly, I heard that Spengler believed that Caesar would rise from Germany, is this true? Where do you think he will rise today? In my personal not exactly uncontroversial opinion he will come from the US.

>>16514996
>>16514943
>>16514981
I think this needs to be clarified: The Amish have the POTENTIAL to become a major demographic in the US. There's less than 200,000 of them. There's more women visiting /pol/ every day than there are Amish people in the WORLD (approx 400,000 if we're being generous with who is "Amish"). They have a high fertility rate, and a relatively stable manner of living (VERY stable in comparison to Modernity). They're utterly reliant on Modernity at an existential level, however, and they would hemorrhage numbers HARD if the US wasn't so degenerate (in their eyes, not however you or I may define "degenerate").

Their pacifism also means that they'll get steamrolled if anyone actually tries to convert them, or just take their stuff. Other countries have demonstrated that when push comes to shove, the Amish will gladly ditch everything that makes them Amish, or leave, but they won't fight. They survive now because they're harmless and the upper crust of Liberal society finds them abhorrent and WANTS them to stay away.

>>16514280
In Spengler's thought, the "dead" part doesn't mean that the society goes away or whatever, it just means it reaches an ossification such that it will never change. China as a political entity can survive forever, but it will never move past filial piety.

People cite the Cultural Revolution as China becoming Faustian man or something, but China has done many Cultural Revolutions, and frankly this is mostly just a combined butthurt that China stayed China and didn't adopt Protestantism after the Taiping Rebellion, and even worse, didn't become a Liberal state after the Republic came into being, and even WORSE, didn't collapse into Liberalism after Mao left power.

>>16515048
If you think China will never change, why don't you say that all peoples/ethnicities/cultures will never change? How do do you decide who does and does not have the potential for change?

>>16514890
hail

Whats your favorite type o negative song

>>16515048
If anything the Cultural Revolution is just more proof of how culturally dead China is. Here we have the ghost of Qin Shi Huang, returned to once again Burn the Books and Bury the Scholars. Mao Zedong acted according to the 2000 year old Chinese doctrine of legalism, under a facade of Communism. And then after Mao died and the empire was reuinted, the PRC reverted to Confucian ethics, just as the Han dynasty did after the Qin dynasty.

Want evidence the West isn't culturally dead and still has a long future? Unironically look at leftist identity politics. Retarded as it is, it is something fundamentally new, evidence that there is still energy to spend in the Western spirit. Ortega y Gasset brought my attention to this, that even in decadence there may be great energy. The calcified corpses of China and India can only look backwards to 2000+ year old ideologies, or reinterpret Western ideologies along traditional lines, as China neatly fitted the Marxist dialectic into the framework of the Tao.

>>16515079
You'd have to ask Spengler. The fuzziness of exactly what you're asking is a common criticism of his works. I saw post by a Russian some time ago on this very subject that went to the tune of
>So why did the really tall trees affect Germanics to make Faustian Man, but not Russians? Were the trees just taller?

I'm just pointing out that "the death of a civilization" doesn't mean "complete eradication". The death of Apollonian man at the hands of Magian man actually happens well before Christianization rooted in the circumstances of the time, and the death of the West is because of the West's global nature such that Faustian man's death WILL result in big problems, whereas China and India just died peacefully and have been coasting along ever since.

>>16512148
>>16512191
Based

If Western civilization is dying, what comes after?

>>16515743
A worldwide caliphate, inshallah

>>16515743
Spengler says either all life as we know it on the planet ends, or something new will be born from the ashes. We'd have to find out what the "prime symbol" of this would be, however.

are there any good life applications one can take from his work?

Is Islam rising?

>>16515813
probably digital space or something like that

OP is back

>>16514418
It seems to be perfectly book for me.

>>16514427
He hates idealism himself but I think you could group him in there.

>>16514440
Our forms are set. There is no conceptual expansion going on of even possible.

>>16514445
He likes Italian fascism more.


>>16514507
Very likely so.

>>16514538
He was a sort of aristocratic fascist

>>16514551
True

>>16514588
He thinks, with which I disagree, that monarchism/some sort of aristocracy is essentially the only viable/true Faustian governmental form.

No, he was not a pagan. He understood Christianity far better than Nietzsche.

>>16514758
I disagree.

>>16514828
His spirituality is escapism to me.

>>16514915
They're an internal proletariat like the Toynbee guy said.

>>16514998
They're proto ceasars.

Will answer the rest later.

>>16509942
will high cultures originate out of the internet?

>>16509942
What did Spengler think of Schopenhauer?

>>16517049
4chan is high culture actually. Highly gay culture

>>16509942
thoughts on Dugin?

>>16512905
>The spring-summer-autmn-winter comparison is a bad one btw. A better conceptualization would just be the life of a plant.
Many plants live their life through the cycle of spring-summer-autunn-winter though. Spring for regrowth, summer for blooming, autumn for decay and winter for death or static position

>>16513859
Are you sure we aren't already past that. There are beginning to be a lot of similarities between SJWism and early Christianity: Cuckoldry, original sin, guilt of the past, tearing down statues etc.

>>16509942
> Why didn't Greece go through Spengler's cycle?

He seems to think Greece is simply the spring time of Rome which doesn't make any sense considering Greece objectively fell and was crushed while Rome lived on. For instance, he says Alexander is the Napoleon of the Graeco-Roman, with his death marking the start of the Hellenistic Autumn Period. This doesn't make any sense for Greece as after his death Greece simply declines and falls under Rome without a Caesar period. Not to mention Alexander and Philip were of Macedonian blood not Greek.


> how does he argue that civilizations go through a morphological cycle akin to Goethe?

Does he genuinely believe that civilizations are biological organisms? There's no evidence for that and how would it even work lol.

>>16509942
> why did he cuck out on the nazis? Ebert said he called them 'racist' in hour of decision.

Pretty retarded for a man who catalogues racial warfare in history (like Osman I eradicating the hyksos, Qin Shi Huang achieving supremacy of the Han, etc) to then cuck out when he sees it in real time.


> is the Caesar figure akin to Cecil Rhodes as I've heard people say?

I've heard ppl say Spengler was more of a reactionary than a fascist, and his ideal Caesar figure would be a wealthy aristocrat who seizes power for himself as opposed to a grass roots revolutionary like Hitler.

>>16512813
Can people post more charts like this they're great

(I have a couple gimme a bit and keep the thread up)

OP back again

>>16515100
I don't listen to that band.

>>16515743
What this guy >>16515813 said although I doubt any new high culture will appear soon.

>>16515844
There's a lot. By extensively engaging with Spengler's work I arrived at the conclusions that took Ernst Jünger a lifetime and two world wars to come to.

>>16517049
No.

>>16517376
I don't like him.

>>16517287
The first western atheist

>>16517457
You perfectly know what I am talking about. One life only. Or one year only if you will.

>>16517882
He didn't call them racist he called them shortsighted.


>>16518007
I'll post some when I come home.

>>16518007
Here's another good graph.

>>16515138

Is identity politics new or just the re-emergence of a colonial racial hierarchy after liberalism has been discredited? It seems more of a way to grasp meaning from the world by looking to the past due to the collapse of the liberal consensus rather than a new mode of organisation.

>>16520360
I think identity politics is better explained epistemically than historically or culturally. It's essentially neo-idealism, a double down on the belief that no independent reality exists outside of the subject. When they say everything is a "social construct" they are saying the world is a purely mental representation and that nothing has objective validity. The whole world, and by extension, truth, for them is a mental construct, so truth becomes whatever anyone wants it to be. Naturally truth must have some basis for existence, but if truth exists only in the mind of the beholder, it must fall back on personal signifiers. here we have identity politics.

>>16520413

I'm half in agreement with you. 'Social construction' seems to have been especially potent around gender, giving birth to a multiplicity of new orientations, sexualities, roles etc., but in the case of race seems to derive it's legitimacy from colonial categorisations and a previous world view. I'd be fully behind this when 'transracial' movements become a reality, which I feel like we could be on the cusp of seeing.

>>16518453
>the conclusions that took Ernst Jünger a lifetime and two world wars to come to
What are those?

>>16518453
If AI ever becomes sufficiently advanced and capable of growth that it supplants humanity, could that break out of Spengler's system or just be a very new form of culture?

>>16512689
Just larp as Raskolnikov

Great thread.

Did Spengler mentioned Hegel in any of his works? Was he a rightwing hegelian? Good thread btw

Quit LARPing, Germanophile.

>>16509942
What are the requisites for a high culture to form?

This is a good thread and while I am not done with Der Untergang des Abendlandes thus far, I did read the two supplements.

Is Neubau des deutschen Reiches worth a read?

bumperoo

>>16509942
More like Oswald SPERGLER
That's you OP

>>16521003
I'm German.

>>16521045
Just the interaction of a people and a specific set of land over fast stretches of time. If this will result in a high culture is ultimately random.

>>16522292
It's a book about practical applications Spengler thinks should be implemented in 1924 in Weimar Germany so it's very dated but you get an insight in the more practical things he thought were necessary. Some has to do with sports at universities, a lot has to do with taxes and working, you get the gist. I thought it's very dated and a dry read in comparison to his other work but it's interesting nonetheless.

>>16511607
Short and vague awnsers, showing you know nothing.

OP back again

>>16520581
Essentially the concept of the anarch.

>>16520636
I suggest you read man and technics. It's a short book anyway. Technics is a form of world subjugation. The Faustian inventor wants to play God. Will to power, you know the drill. I think ai will be one of our creations that will ultimately be our own undoing/ will destroy us.

>>16520979
He mentioned him very positively and said something along the lines of (I'm paraphrasing) 'just as Marx left Germany and became an Englishman because England was better suited for him Hegel left south Germany because it was unsuited for him"

He respected Hegel a great deal but obviously disagreed on a lot with him. Just look at the way they both view history and it's final destination
This didn't upload so I'm trying again.

>>16524264
I could type out whole essays on Spengler don't get me even started. People who know me dread my Spengler rants.

>>16524314
How would Spengler classify modern central Europe? Are Poles and Hungarians more faustian, russian or something in between? What about south slavs and Baltic States?

I'll have to go. If you want me to answer more stuff or send you links to Spengler related stuff bump the thread.

Here's a website where you can read a few essays by and about Spengler:
https://counter-currents.com/2020/05/remembering-oswald-spengler-8/

>>16520979
>>16524268
Spengler's historical idealism is more in line with the Rankean school than Hegelian. He fundamentally disagreed with the concept of a universal History. Hegel's view of history is geocentric, in that there is only one historical development, while the Rankean is heliocentric, with its belief in the multiplicity of historical developments. and ultimately it is the more characteristically Faustian.

What do you recommend to start with Spengler

>>16509942
I don't know any Oswald Spengler, And I Won't google it because I believe you will do a better introduction.

Bumping this thread

>>16509942
Hypothetical question, but how (in your opinion) would Spenglerian ideas apply if at all to a multiplanetary or even just a globespanning civilisation in our future?
It seems in the past a prime symbol was developed in an organic, local way. This seems to be increasingly difficult as we move into the future.
In fact, let alone a multiplanetary civilisation, considering even one global civilisation, it becomes very difficult to imagine how there is even room for a future culture to develop without our current civilisation disintegrating altogether. Otherwise it seems that we might just lumber on in an ossified state.

OP back again

>>16524356
The way I see it and the way Spengler would see it if he were alive today is that everything east of Germany is Slavic. There's nothing Faustian about the Poles, Czechs, Hungarians or people from the Balkan.


>>16524386
I'm not really familiar with Hegel or Rankean so any statements I make on these are going to be purely based upon my understanding of Spengler. This seems accurate though.

>>16524433
I explained my recommended offer of reading his work here: >>16512064

>>16524517
His understanding of things is relative. Always relative. There are no absolutes except life and death in Spengler. His view of life can only be called irrationality. He does not subscribe to any system of thoughts or ideas like Marxism, Darwinism, Rationality, etc. Because of this, he is not limited by any system that seeks to subjugate the world and categorize it in artificial terms. His width and depth of vision is immense and he sees everything that he examines from dozens of perspectives and can thus arrive at conclusions, which are
unknowable to anybody else.

I can tell you more if you wish so.

>>16525323
The idea that the civilization of a whole planet can have the same prime symbol, the same mythology and the same way of thinking is pretty much impossible in my opinion as the prime symbols develop out of a particular nature/landscape (the forests of northern Europe for our culture) and I don't think a planet can have the same landscape everywhere. Now if you said those spacefaring people have their prime symbol from one particular landscape on one particular planet and then they started to colonize space further along in the life of their culture then maybe. I read somewhere that expansion into space could be the thing that saves Faustian culture as it satisfies the desire of limitless expansion but I find that doubtful and I think those people just have a hard time accepting death. Not that we shouldn't try it I fully encourage any form of conquest.

I don't think our culture will be around that long into the future that it'll end like China or India have, where they're dead petrified world giants or as you called: I don't think it will be in an ossified state.

I think our creation, the machine civilisation, will utterly destroy us.

>>16517865
It has nothing to do with ethnicity, or blood. It's all about Spengler's definition of Race. This is actually rooted in ideas and will: men who hold to the same ideas, worldview, and will are of the same "race". Greece, Rome, Macedonia, Carthage, all of these are of the Apollonian Race. They see the world in a specific way. THAT is why they're the same unit: because they're all thinking the same. They all exist under the same worldview. In the case of Apollonian Man, it's a series of discrete bodies in space. Greece and Rome are part of the same unit, they're not separate. In the case of Faustian Man (that's us) it's infinite space on a 3D grid. This is why the US and Germany are part of the same unit.

You're looking at this from a materialist lens. That's wrong.

>>16525917
Yes, that's true but Spengler also uses race as a virtue.

Ask me questions that have actual substance and are not surface level garbage that can be answered by skimming Spengler's Wikipedia article.

I started reading him yesterday and after being done with the introduction, I'm surprised that reactionaries like him. He just flat out said that you should embrace the current materialist era and that you shouldn't think about philosophy or poetry right now because you can't change the all-devouring process even if you wanted.

>>16526076
did he overlook latin america?

>>16526193
No. He was a little bit wrong when the cultural development of south America started and about the specific foundations of some of its subcultures but he was limited by the knowledge of his time so it doesn't really matter. He also didn't really care about it that much. He mostly focused on the greeco-roman, Egyptian and faustian cultures and cared about those the most.

>>16526304
I mean, did he overlook the future of Latin America? They have more potential than Russia imo.

>>16526076
Do you think there are "lesser high cultures" that Spengler missed, or weren't big enough to care about? I know Toynbee has cultures that were snuffed out in the crib, like the Polynesians and Norse. Do you think you can have "micro-prime symbols"? That is, the Faustian prime symbol of the forest, but this group of weirdos turns it into "a forest clearing"? Can a prime symbol "change"?

>>16526113
The cringe right likes him because of the title of the book. But Spengler is a serious philosopher on the same level as Heidegger or Wittgenstein or whoever else, not to be lumped in with juvenile larping sophists like Evola.

>>16526428
Spengler was adamant that only high cultures may have prime symbols but this is false. He himself says "all that is, symbolizes". Every form of human consciousness from the grand civilizations to a lowly conversation is a complex network of semiotics involving potential and actuality. This thread too will die when every question has been asked and all possible topics discussed.

>>16512689
Aren't the "Caesars" supposed to be contemptible, because they're ruling over decrepit societies?

>>16526460
>Spengler is a serious philosopher on the same level as Heidegger or Wittgenstein or whoever else

Heidegger and Wittgenstein are both incredibly overrated "philosophers" and have produced disastrous consequences for the human race.

>>16525869
>Spengler would see it if he were alive today is that everything east of Germany is Slavic. There's nothing Faustian about the Poles, Czechs, Hungarians or people from the Balkan.

I think Sweden and Denmark would be Faustian but Norway, Finland and Iceland would not. Especially Finland.

>>16526344
With that IQ?

>>16526344

With global warming it seems likely that Russia will enter a new era of dominance, especially when Arctic sea routes open and Siberia warms.

>>16526344
Well, their culture has been 'killed' for lack of a better term a long time ago by the Faustian conquerors. The only future they have in my opinion is that of fellaheen a-historical people like Subsaharan Africans. They are significant insofar as they will gobble up the USA. Spengler certainly acknowledged them when he was talking about the coloured masses' revolt against their white masters. Other than that they are only object and not subject in history.

>>16526428
I think David Engels' theory on what additional high cultures there are is certainly interesting and should be thoroughly investigated and examined but I don't think that highly of Toynbee and I think he added too much to Spengler and diluted the original work.

I think prime symbols can be degraded, I think their expression changes through a cultures lifetime, I think their impression on the particular people of a culture changes with time, I think the prime symbols can be brought to previously unreached heights in the way they manifest, but I don't think their essence can change.

>>16526460
Like I said above I think the subtitle "fragments of a morphology of world history" is much better.

>>16526534
Their position is certainly not to be subject of envy.

>>16526671
I consider Sweden, Denmark and Norway European and Faustian. They're on the same level as Belgium, Switzerland or Austria to me.

>>16509942

What was his favourite manga?

>>16526953

Berserk

>>16526862
How does one find meaning and the best life in this winter?

>>16527697
Amor fati. Love your destiny even if it's the death of the world.
Since the end is certain (thanks to Spengler we know it is) only the way towards the end matters.
Live life for life's sake. Not in the decadent way of L’art pour l’art but in a life-affirming and destiny-actualizing way.
Don't do things because you harbour some sort of optimism. Optimism is cowardice because it does not face life full on. Do some thing because it is the right thing to do. Don't do it because you want to change things. Acceptance of death and then comes the 'even though...!' 'Even though there'll be no future for mine and even though I witness the destruction of the world I will act and I will act accordingly without resolve.'

>'We are born into this time and must bravely follow the path to the destined end. There is no other way. Our duty is to hold on to the lost position, without hope, without rescue, like that Roman soldier whose bones were found in front of a door in Pompeii, who, during the eruption of Vesuvius, died at his post because they forgot to relieve him. That is greatness. That is what it means to be a thoroughbred. The honourable end is the one thing that can not be taken from a man.'

>'This is our purpose: to make as meaningful as possible this life that has been bestowed upon us. To live in such a way that we may be proud of ourselves, to act in such a way that some part of us lives on.'

>>16527911
Is it right to pursue political action against the modern world? If the end is inevitable, should you still try to fight against it if you find it fulfilling and the "right thing to do"?

>>16527972
Yes.

>>16527911
cringe...this is d&d for germanophile reactionaries

>>16513356
Hehe dijk

>>16509942
Is Spengler our fate that we still live in denial about?

I'm going to do my best to kill the faustian spirit and make slavic civilization empire of the stars, which will last until the end of times. This is the end of history we should get.

>>16529664
Based

>>16529664
best wishes to the slavs, but Faust must conquer space, it is our destiny

>>16528038
There's almost nothing reactionary about Spengler. And since I myself am a German that is particularly interested in Italian culture I'd classify as an Italophile.

>>16528131
Yes

>>16529664
Best of luck to you

Alright, bump the thread from time to time if you want me to post more. Here's another good link: http://ahistoryofthepresentananthology.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-decline-of-west-by-oswold-spengler.html?m=1

Who are Spengler's most relevant critics?

Great thread, as a Spenglerian you have done a great job explaining his ideas OP.

I'd like to list a few criticism I have with some other Spenglerian. For starters, I think the Mose-American Ur-Symbol is the beast, which can be seen within their high culture just like how infinity can be seen in western culture. I think the chart here, >>16512813 claiming its an all consuming cosmic cycle does a mildly good job at expressing the idea; however, I think it misses out on critical aspects such as the honor of the predator (ritual human sacrifices was mainly limited to nobility under the Culture phase), and the hierarchy of life which is represented in the step pyramids design.

This same chart I think does something wrong, I believe that the Japanese culture is a separate entity from the Chinese. I believe Spengler within the decline even sets them aside as their own, which he does not mention again. Whether they are a high culture is up for debate but I would find it hard to say they are not, given the originality in which their culture has which can be see in their media which is exploring a unique metaphysical angle today similar to the west's summer era.

Lastly I would like to say I think Russia is not preculture, and is in a early culture phase, having recently experienced their own interregnum similar to that which all high cultures do. I see a very large number of things explaining their current placement within this frame.

few more questions:

> is the first Caesar figure a traditionalist reactionary figure or a progressive modernist?

it seems to vary; Julius Caesar brought foreigners into the senate and disregarded tradition whereas Ahmose I drove out the hyksos and tried (unsuccessfully) to reestablish traditional egyptian pyramid building


> how does Spengler's cycle correspond to Greek historical epochs?

my guess is:
Archaic Period - Springtime
Classical Greece - Summer
Hellenistic Era - Autumn
Death / Enslavement by Romans - Winter


> i heard before ebert saying that there's significance to the fact that the Greeks didn't put any pupils in their statues, whereas others did (or not others statues but others works, specifically the Faustian / Magian I think). can you explain this?


> did Spengler comment on Homer much?


> why isn't the arabian-ottoman one civilisation?

>>16532115
Not OP but I'll answer.
>is the first Caesar figure a traditionalist reactionary figure or a progressive modernist?
Caesearism is the death of the ideal of the culture and its political forms going back to nature (like how a plant that dies becoming soil again). In the case of Rome this was expressed through the Hellenistic and Roman conservatism becoming subverted and destroyed. In China it was a ruler attempting to go uphill against nature. For Faustian culture it must be a blow to the ideal of progress all while being the death of the idea of money in favor of force. So I would expect our Caesear to be a synthesis of left and right in different aspects. He will be a socialist, but a conservative in so far as the ideas of progress.
>how does Spengler's cycle correspond to Greek historical epochs?
On point from my analysis. Although to add, the Mycenaean were also the pre-culture of Greece similar to how the Jews were to the Megian Civilization.
> i heard before ebert saying that there's significance to the fact that the Greeks didn't put any pupils in their statues, whereas others did (or not others statues but others works, specifically the Faustian / Magian I think). can you explain this?
I believe Spengler himself explores this, in the first volume if I recall correctly. To be brief, the Greeks also burned their dead, to them the soul and a man was something that existed here and now, there was no depth in it or its future. The eyes being blank reaffirm this view, but by carving eyes into the individual you express a depth and something magical inside the individual which is how the Megians made use of the Greco-Roman form to express their own forms. Spengler calls this a pseudonymous, a term from mineralogy.
>did Spengler comment on Homer much?
In so far as where he falls within the historic process, I believe he does a few times in forms and actuality. What are you looking for exactly?
>why isn't the arabian-ottoman one civilisation?
It is, its labeled the Megian. Spengler also lumps in the Persians and Byzantine and Early Christians with this civilization and calls its prime symbol the world as cavern. If you wish to understand what this means reading Alfarabi helped me a lot. You can think of it this way
>Spring Early Christians
>Summer Byzantine and Early Islam
>Autumn Golden Age of Islam
>winter Turks

Do American fat people symbolize the faustian urge for limitless expansion?

>>16532420
insofar as consumerism is applied socialism as the final religion of faustian civilization, yes

>>16532420
In its most shallow non-metaphysical aspects, yes.

>>16526671
Finland was part of Sweden not too long ago though. Its no secret though that Finland is between the west and east, and finnic peoples in Russia most likely aren't faustians. But this place is culturally mix of Sweden, Germany and Russia, and added finnic mystery sauce.

>>16511832
Cpuld you explain this a bit further? Genuinely interested in the implications of China as a new global superpower

>>16532651
Not OP, but see >>16515048 and >>16515138.

A "Culture" is an early, vital period. A "Civilization" is when that ossifies. A Culture-Civilization ("Apollonian Man"; "Magian Man"; the "unit"; the "organism") "dies" and thus ossification is complete, and vitality is extinguished. It can no longer create anything meaningfully new, it can only recycle what it's already come up with, or retool outside input via its own internal processes. I'm going to just use the term "polity" to refer to the actual, literal, physical, political and social entity made up of people.

China as a Culture-Civilization died in like, 200BC. But, that means NOTHING in terms of the polity. China as a polity could go on existing forever, but they'll never get beyond MUH TAO and MUH FILIAL PIETY. India is similar: it died in like, 200AD, but can as a Polity go on forever. They'll just never get beyond MUH ILLUSION and MUH CASTES. Anything new brought to them, they'll just interpret through what they've already got. Think of "death" in terms of a vital force within the body, rather than the body itself.

However, we can see Culture-Civilizations be ERADICATED, in the sense that no human "believes" in them any more. An example of this is the eradication of Apollonian Man. The Romans ditched their native Apollonian character, and imported Magian character. Why? They wanted an empire. Apollonian Man could not conceive of destroying Carthage. Subjugating it, defeating it, making it weak and worthless, yes, but to DESTROY a body in space was unheard of. They HAD to adopt a foreign mode of understanding ("cave world") to even conceive of doing such a thing, let alone owning the world under one Imperium. Christianity was just an excuse to do the death blow for this process, and if it hadn't been around we'd see the weird pseudo-oriental Jupiter-Hercules theology of Diocletian be the excuse.

>>16532545
I believe it was Toynbee who postulated "Norse" as an "aborted Culture". I find this idea fascinating; what is their Prime Symbol? A Fjord?

>>16532764
One idea I read in an essay is that each prime symbol determines the destiny of its fate. For instances, the climatic death of classical civilization was not an accident but was part of their world picture. Similarly the world picture of China and India was a cyclical rise and fall while the middle east was to return to its cave and attempts to be preserved. How true this necesarly is in addition to Spengler's model I am uncertain, especially given the writer of the essay attempted to justify Faustian man existing forever seems unlikely, but I think it remains worth sharing.

>>16532406
thanks that was pretty great

OP again

>>16531922
I haven't really come across anybody that understood him and really disagreed with him. (Maybe for the exception of Adorno but as I said above Adorno's own opinion is garbage.) Really most people that disagree with Spengler either have never engaged with his work or just don't understand him.

>>16532044
I completely agree on the Japanese. I think I already said so before in the thread.

Mind telling me more about what you think about Russia? I am somewhat unsure about the issue and don't really know how to categorise the soviet union's demise in a cultural life span. I think I am biased on the issue due to my dislike of Slavs.

I agree with every answer you gave to the other questions. I think I'll just add some of my own answers to yours.

>>16532115
Essentially ceasarism is in the words of Spengler "the ride of a form fulfilled world into the cosmic historyless of primitivism" that's really the best way to explain it in my opinion.


The other guy explained the rest pretty well.

>>16509942
>>16511607
>>16512064
>>16512936
>>16516990
>>16525869

Would his works help an Immortal to outlive the Universe and a society/civilization/country to conquer Universe ?

A yes is all I need.

few more questions again (this is a kino thread):

> did spengler have an opinion on former philosophers of history like gibbon and vico?

> does anyone have a sort of glossary of Spenglerian terms and their meanings? like pseudomorphisis, technik, etc

> is there room for a deep ecology reading of spengler? he seemed to be something of a pastoralist / skeptic of technology

> what is it about the mona lisa which typifies Faustian civilization so well? ebert said it's something about the perspective difference

> same for Rembrandt, i've heard there's like a 5 pages solely about how Rembrandt uses the color grey. what's that about? `

> if there is one artwork / piece of architecture you could preserve from each civilization (to capture its essence) what would it be?

for me it'd be:
Faustian: Wanderer above the Sea of Fog by Friedrich
Greco-Roman: Discobolus by Myron
Egyptian: Great Pyramid of Giza
Chinese: Great Wall of China
Indian: Pillar of Ashoka

>>16533147
Add-on to that last question (and honestly a better question);

> If you could pick one art-form which each civilisztion excelled at - and which exemplifies the essential spirit of the civilization - what would they be?

For instance; I think everyone agrees ancient Greek sculpture really captures the physical nature of the Mediterranean Apollonian civilisation. They're sort of materialistic but in the most beautiful and aesthetic way. I'll give a go at answering my question:

Greco-Roman: Sculpture
Faustian: Classical Music or Painting
Magian: Icon Painting or Cave art
Egyptian: Pyramid & Tomb Building
Indian: Cave art and temples
Chinese: Pottery

Thanks!

>>16532833
I think the immortality of Faustian Man would require it to be able to move through the 3D grid infinitely; this would mean ensuring that Caesar NEVER comes along, so progress can occur infinitely. I believe Spengler allows for the prolonging of Culture (and thus the staving off of Civilization), and would even allow for prolonging Civilization before a final ossification and death, but I don't know for how long. No one has any fucking clue what's below Quarks, and we're not allowed to do research into genetics because racism, so the avenues for progress are shrinking.

The ONLY way I can see Faustian Man surviving is if we make it to space, where we can "progress" infinitely by seeding the galaxy with life. I suppose a GOOD END would be for some remnant of Faustian Man to continue in space, just constantly expanding, and leaving behind people who will go on to found other Culture-Civilizations.

>>16533050
I think a good case could be made that that big Military Cathedral in Russia IS the birth of their "Prime Symbol Architecture". I can sperg out about this if you'd like.

>>16532115
Wanted to add this to the already existing answers on ceasarism:

>'The coming of Caesarism breaks the dictature of money and its political weapon, democracy. After a long triumph of world-city economy and its interests over political creative force, the political side of life manifests itself after all as the stronger of the two. The sword is victorious over the money, the master-will subdues again the plunderer-will. If we call these money-powers 'Capitalism,' then we may designate as Socialism the will to call into life a mighty politico-economic order that transcends all class interests, a system of lofty thoughtfulness and duty-sense that keeps the whole in fine condition for the decisive battle of its history, and this battle is also the battle of money and law. The private powers of the economy want free paths for their acquisition of great resources. No legislation must stand in their way. They want to make the laws themselves, in their interests, and to that end, they make use of the tool they have made for themselves, democracy, the subsidized party. Law needs, in order to resist this onslaught, a high tradition and an ambition of strong families that finds its satisfaction, not in the heaping-up of riches, but in the tasks of true rulership, above and beyond all money-advantage. A power can be overthrown only by another power, not by a principle, and no power that can confront money is left but this one. Money is overthrown and abolished only by blood. Life is alpha and omega, the cosmic stream in microcosmic form. It is the fact of facts within the world-as-history. Before the irresistible rhythm of the generation-sequence, everything built up by the waking-consciousness in its intellectual world vanishes at the last. Ever in History, it is life and life only race-quality, the triumph of the will-to-power and not the victory of truths, discoveries, or money that signifies. World-history is the world court, and it has ever decided in favour of the stronger, fuller, and more self-assured life decreed to it, namely, the right to exist, regardless of whether its right would hold before a tribunal of waking-consciousness.'

>>16532833
I think our end/ destiny (/Faustian culture's end/destiny ) will be the machine civilization, climate change, the coloured masses and the white revolutionaries all causing our ultimate demise.


>>16533103
Other than ONA (who believe in spenglerian magicks or something like that) I don't know anybody or anything related to Spengler that could help you gain immortality. If an immortal learned to see things Spengler's way then he'd certainly not get bored or suicidal as easy.

>>16533147
Don't think he ever mentioned those two

Something like that doesn't exist to my knowledge. Just read all his books they're worth it and they're not many anyway.

You could certainly interpret something like that into his work but I think you'd do him a disservice because you're limiting him and yourself. (cont >)

>>16532044
Spengler called Japan along with Korea moonlight civilizations of China, in that China was the original culture and they developed separately based on Chinese culture. They don't take part in any grand culture cycle themselves but always live in the cultural shadow of China.

>>16533147
>>16533690
Continuation of the last post

Like I said I think you're in necessarily limiting Spengler if you do that and I don't think highly of deep ecology anyway. I love industry, technics and technology (not in a Bugman way, Italian futurism is more my kinda thing) and I think identification with nature is the sign of a lack of a Faustian drive of world domination.

Through the painting of Christ as the average white guy developed the portrait and finally the self-portrait. The way I see it Mona Lisa is one of the first portraits and insofar special as it is a representation of Faustian individualism. The perspective is also important. I think the way she looks at the person looking at her painting is special. I've been in the Louvre and I've seen the Mona Lisa and frankly, it's not that great.

I'm pretty sure he spergs out about brown and not grey in Rembrandt. And he writes at least two dozen pages on Rembrandt.

>'Finally, in Rembrandt, objects dissolve into mere coloured impressions, and forms lose their specific humanness and become collocations of strokes and patches that tell as elements of a passionate depth-rhythm. Distance, so treated, comes to signify Future, for what Impressionism seizes and holds is by hypothesis a unique and never recurring instant, not a landscape in being but a fleeing moment of the history thereof.'
>>16533690
>I don't know anybody or anything related to Spengler that could help you gain immortality

This was a joke btw

>>16533690
>Other than ONA (who believe in spenglerian magicks or something like that) I don't know anybody or anything related to Spengler that could help you gain immortality

I am not looking for immortality, especially with a bunch of weirdos who believe in magic

>>16533690
>If an immortal learned to see things Spengler's way then he'd certainly not get bored or suicidal as easy

thank you

>>16533346
Please sperg out

>>16532764
iirc Spengler says that the Faustian culture comes from the northern parts of Europe

>>16534384
Faustian Man's prime symbol is the Primeval Forest: columns holding up the vault of heaven, stretching out forever. It is a 3D grid; infinite space in three dimensions. There's "stuff" in all three axes. The architectural representation of this is the Gothic Cathedral; tall, and festooned with detail everywhere. You look up, and see forever, but there's "things" in that forever. It's not infinite empty space.

Slavic Man (Slavic Man =/= only-Russians) however has the prime symbol of the infinite plane. But this plane is not the steppe, it is Russia itself: forests and mountains and steppe and it stretches on forever. It is infinite 2D space. There's only "stuff" in two axes. Until now, there has been no architecture to represent this.

Firstly, the cathedral is not "a building", it's a complex. It's actually several structures within a flat plane, akin to how Russia is a flat plane with mountains here, forests there, and then there's just "space" in between these features. Russian cities and villages are islands in a sea of flat space.

Secondly, if we look in the building itself, there is no "up". It uses space deceptively, turning the Z-axis into the X and Y axes. I'll post a pic of this. It doesn't even have peaked roofs, it has domes. Russians can't even cover a building without maximizing X and Y. The building is full of "stuff", but only in the X and Y plane. There is no reason to ever crane your neck.

Thirdly, despite being a "Cathedral" it's not actually a Christian Cathedral: It's a Russian Cathedral. It is a Cathedral for Russia herself. It's a Cathedral all right, and is filled with images of Jesus and Mary and the Saints, but it's also a place to (secularly) pray to Muslims, Muhammad, Jews, Moses, Buddha, Buddhism, Communism, Stalin, Lenin, the heroes of the Great Patriotic War, Peter the Great, and Ivan the Terrible. It was designed by an ethnically Tuvan Buddhist who wears a Russian officer's uniform. Monuments are made out of melted down Nazi tanks.

>>16535169
Faustian Man sees history as having a "direction"; this is why you can be on the "right (or wrong) side of history". There is a DIRECTION to history. Faustian Man seeks to correct others' behavior. Slavic Man has no need for this; history is just a line, and it has no direction, it just goes. A series of events, stretching infinitely. In 3D space, you can have blobs, and one blob can swallow another, totally in all dimensions. But in 2D space, you can also have blobs, but can never totally cover a blob with another as you can never get above or under it. No blob has any reason or capacity to to ever swallow another blob; that is actually DETRIMENTAL to the sustainability of a blob. So, every blob gives ever other blob a little wiggle room to breath. Every blob grows out infinitely, even if through just a thin corridor. A Tuvan Buddhist can construct frescoes to Muhammad alongside a statue made of Nazi tanks and the Virgin Mary because every group has its own corridor to "grow" down, the walls made by other blobs. Russia is a land where a Lutheran Priest and a Rabbi can argue about God while an Orthodox Cossack and a Vajrayana Buddhist plot the best way to steal horses from a Sunni Muslim, and absolutely none of this threatens their respective groups.

Christ is King, but not in the Western sense. The Czar as a position is detached from any sort of personal affectation, and is just as fine collecting taxes from Protestants as he is from Shiites. This monument is also a cathedral to the last Finnic Pagans, who still practice their ancestral faith (they sacrificed a horse to their God of Winter to stop Napoleon, and sent some men to fight the Nazis). It is a Cathedral that literally everyone in Russia can pray in, with the only common thread between them being "Russia". It is a collection of history with no judgement; a place where events are commemorated, with the only common thread between them being "Russia".

>>16535169
>>16535243
Very interesting read. I am aware of how the prime symbols function and of how viewing the world as a 2d plane or as a 3d expansion but I was not aware of the details of the cathedral. This is very interesting thank you for bringing this to my attention.

>>16533872
Yes, I am aware I disagree.

I really need to read more about this cathedral.

>>16535169
What would you say about the Soviet Union? Where does it fit in the Slavic cultural development?

>>16535336
The entire idea of "development" is a Faustian idea. Development towards what? Increased technical mastery? Understanding of the world? Adherence to the "direction of history"? Rather, from the Slavic understanding of history, I would say the USSR is just another event in history.

If the US were to do something like this, they'd make a big high-budget production somehow trying to link the Biden Presidential Campaign, the Civil Rights Act, Roe v. Wade, and "Trans-Rights" into some big ideological crusade that WWII was just a step in; to create a unified intellectual history to judge actions by. But this is Russia, so let's go melt down a bunch of tanks and make some pretty buildings. There is no need to make a thread of continuity between the Romanovs and Stalin, between Stalin and Putin, it already exists: it's Russia. Things happened, they probably had reasons, moving on.

If you were to describe the events of the USSR in purely material terms, one would think Lenin was a Judaeo-Steppe bandit prince whose horde of rogues, dregs, and sexual deviants was used by Stalin to make himself Czar. You can more accurately describe the USSR if you paint Stalin as a Caucasian Satrap and just ignore Communism all together. The USSR, much like the French Republic, was at its best when it was doing all of the things the prior regime WANTED to do, but couldn't. Every action that mattered was first concocted decades before Stalin was born in some Czarist bureaucrat's office, from the railroads to turning the Ukraine into a giant wheat factory. That is why Slav's feel no need to come up with grand intellectual theories of history, and when they do, they're incredibly shoddy (see: Dugin). They already have one, and they have an attitude that history just happens to them.

The USSR happened. And then, something else did. Such is life.

>>16534384
Sector imperialis administratum is a nice set.

>>16535531
I think you misunderstood my question. Is the Ussr part of Russia's spring phase? Or is it pre-high-culture?

>>16509942
Can you describe the main differences between the Apollonian and the Faustian? I haven't read him but that distinction is very interesting to me.

>>16535581
Oh, my bad. I think it'd be part of its spring phase, as it's a period of vital growth and "coming into its own". But Spengler also has theories about Russia being stifled by Faustian Man ("Petrinism") because Russia's leaders had a hardon for France, so I could see the idea being made that while a culture "figures things out" in its Spring period, you can artificially delay the completion of this. Faustian Man is born in the 900sAD, but doesn't get Gothic Cathedrals until the 1100s-1200s, so I don't see why Russia couldn't have just taken a long time to get things figured out.

I think the specifics of this sort of thing are where Spengler's theories fall apart: he's more of a poet than a scientist, and that's fine and good, but if you start picking apart every single individual thing and trying to find a hard and fast way of categorizing everything, you just get mountains of "but what ifs".

>>16535605
Apollonian Man sees the world as discrete bodies dancing around each other in space. The space is empty, and pointless. Think islands on the sea, or city states: the stuff in between them is just empty space.

Faustian Man sees the world as a 3D grid of stuff moving in various directions; that directionality is key, we're talking vectors here. There is an "arc" of history, that you can be on the right or wrong side of.

>>16509942
who

>>16509942
What is Brazil's role in the Spenglerian Doctrine? Is Brazil a identityless, meaningless place, with no history or destination, which only offers raw materials and a workforce for other civilizations-cultures, akin to Africa?
Is Brazil a pre-culture, which can develop its own culture, be its own hemisphere like China? Is the rest of Latin America Japan or Korea for Brazil's "China"?
Is Brazil a Faustian country? We always have this ambiguous feeling of destiny, that we are the eternal "Country of the Future", that we will occupy and develop the Central Plateau and the Amazon.
Is the transcontinental and multiracial biological nature of Brazil a disabling condition?

>>16535612
Well if I go along with the assumption that Russia ( I use it as a synonym for all things Slavic) is going to be the next high-culture, I'd say the USSR was part of the spring phase. I think the 'main characters'
(Lenin, Stalin, etc.) of that time period will be remembered like Charlemagne is. I can see some distinct signs that would make that assumption more likely. I'd say the whole spring phase is going to be characterized by patriarchal figures like Putin which are best described with what you said here:

>'The Czar as a position is detached from any sort of personal affectation, and is just as fine collecting taxes from Protestants as he is from Shiites'


I certainly agree with the poet part. That's what makes him and his work so attractive. He is not called the thinker-poet for nothing.


>>16535849
I see it as an ahistorical place that's only object in history. The mixture of many different ethnicities and the natural landscape there is certainly interesting, but I don't see how it's different than Subsaharan Africa in terms of it being a high culture. It can still be South America's powerhouse and exercise influence on its neighbours but the only historical significance it will have in the near future is the constituting of a part of the coloured masses that are driven by a nihilistic hatred of all things European and that will match against the Faustian culture. Just having the desire to subjugate others and conquer does not make you Faustian. The racial mixture of the Brazilian population is insofar a problem that not all of the population had to interact (/ had the change to interact) with the land for a long period of time. Maybe there will spring forth another high-culture from the soil of South America in the far future.

Though generally, I doubt that there will be much left after the faustian culture has finished it's life span.

Gotta go again. Bump the thread from time to time if you want to keep it up

What's your opinion on jazz? Does it belong to faustian culture?

>>16509942
bump for best thread in an age

>>16535581
To build on >>16535612 I too think the Slavic world is an Early Spring world rather then a pre-cultural world. Its forms are harder to see in plain sight similar to how the Megian is harder to see for its own due to the strong pseudonymous in which the classical world placed upon them (where as the Slavs have a Faustian pseudonymous, all be it less intense as the Megian had with the classical currently, due to the Slavs being able to repel the Germans). Because of this you have to be patient with their more grand forms, their art and architecture bleeds through as does their writing, even if it still holds onto alien Faustian forms. But if you look at their world, they are a Feudal system, not one of clans or tribes (one being early culture and the other being pre-culture.) They recently experienced their interregnum (Faustian culture experienced in 1254) with the collapse of the USSR, and their culture has produced its starts of a metaphysical outlook with its great writers. Even if atheism is common in the Slavic world, mysticism is strong in their world.
I think another good way of showing the Slavic placement in time is to look at Japan in contrast to both systems. Japan is in its early summer, and so its governance is mainly detached from money and is run aristocratically by form. Japan, even though it is a democracy is run by the LDP and is a single party state run by conservatives. Even though the west has imposed a democracy upon the state, it remains a single party state because the people do not know how to let money control them. Similarly, even though Russia had a democracy imposed upon it in a moment of weakness (along with the rest of the Slavic world) their peoples do not understand these forms of money and so prefer authoritarian rulers over their Feudal peoples. They are structurally democracies (for now), but their people are Feudal.

>>16536352
I think it is Faustian, same with rock and even rap. It is an art of the autumn stage, where art must look backwards or outwards (taking African influence in this case) to appeal to the masses. Its mainly a sign that the peoples are losing their cultural vigor due to the stories or forms of the culture itself being exhausted.

is mexico faucian or somehting else?

>>16537407
>Similarly, even though Russia had a democracy imposed upon it in a moment of weakness (along with the rest of the Slavic world) their peoples do not understand these forms of money and so prefer authoritarian rulers over their Feudal peoples. They are structurally democracies (for now), but their people are Feudal.
It's very interesting how the history of Brazil and the history of Russia rhyme at certain points. But Brazil has a series of very particular elements because it is physically separated from its founding nucleus (Portugal), and has racial differences much deeper than Russia.
Do you think there is anything in the Tropics that corrupts the spirit that inhabits here?

>>16509942
How come you keep posting tons of WW2 propaganda? Spengler hated the Nazis.

>>16509942
>>>/lit/thread/S14965170

I remember this anon saying he predicted where the caesar was going to appear. Care to give your take?

>>16537555
>>16538128
Mexico and Brazil along with Latin America, have some who are Faustian (especially in those parts more inhabited by Western Man), but by and large as a group remain something which is outside of the west. Northern Mexico and Southern Brazil in particular are more Faustian, but overall both states have large populations that are not Faustian. I would say their politics are largely determined by those who are Western making these state's success and failure tied to the Western destiny, but the peoples themselves are largely not. These separate people however are not those of a higher culture, Latin America for the time being is nothing other then a convention to make up non-anglo America and is not a high culture and I doubt will be one anytime soon, though I do see it having some potential in the far future.

>>16512178
What is this quote from?

>>16513218
When you say cultural development will never happen again in the West, do you mean for the West as a superorganism or the West as in Europe and America? Couldn't a new superogranism emerge from the West's ashes just as the West emerged from the Classical world?

>>16513569
>I'm certain that they would have killed him if he finished and published "Deutschland in Gefahr".
What's that? I've never heard of his unfinished project.

>>16525869
This is a fantastic thread, OP. I really appreciate you doing this.

OP again

>>16537555
Same as Brazil (as explained here >>16536350) insofar as it's a mass of coloured people that will eventually destroy the USA and rn live in a sort of fellaheen, ahistorical state. It could become a hegemon of Central America, like Brazil could become the hegemon of South America. What I think is interesting about Mexico is the revolutions and how syndicalism expressed itself there. I think that can and should be examined as it could offer big insights into Mexico's general being. I am not well-read on the topic at all but I think that's very interesting.

>>16536352
Yeah what the other guy said here: >>16537473. I agree with that.

>>16537407
A Faustian pseudomorphis is certainly an interesting concept.

>>16538128
>Do you think there is anything in the Tropics that corrupts the spirit that inhabits here?
What's interesting about this is that the cultural forms of a culture sometimes sprout from the ground years after it's cycle is over or even if it's not a high culture. (Example is the American superheroes of which many are Indian folk heroes and gods.) They sort of stay in the land and then influence other people that move there. Could be that the forms of the rainforest are pressing from the land into the unconsciousness of Brazil and are exercising an influence on its population. You might describe this as corrupting.


>>16538208
I've mainly posted ww1 pictures and only 3 from ww2 which could hardly be considered propagandistic.


>>16538623
I explained how I think our caesar will be somewhere in the thread. I think he will appear in the US due to the personality cult that permeates every facet of public life there.

>>16526862
>They are significant insofar as they will gobble up the USA.
So could they be like the barbarians were for the west? Could they be the seeds of a new culture? Castizo Futurism confirmed.

>>16539338
https://counter-currents.com/2010/07/pessimism/

>>16539368
The west or the Faustian culture is not the successor of the apollonian (Greco-Roman) culture. Of course, something can come out of the west since it's a global empire. I mean the superorganism of the Faustian culture. It's already ossified and no conceptual expansion is possible so physical expansion (the imperial age) is the only way to satisfy the natural drive of conquest and subjugation.

>>16539374
The second volume of "Years of decision". He puts the national socialist on the same level as the Bolsheviks in that book. Nothing of it has been published to my understanding because he burned his notes when the nazis started purging people. I plan to go to the archives in Munich and look at his notes so maybe something is there.

>>16539418
I appreciate the mostly positive questions and general behaviour.


>>16539436
Yes I'd consider them that.

Bump the thread from time to time guys. Gotta go again. Here's a poem by Spengler from when he was writing decline of the west. He was severely depressed at the time. It's only been published in a book containing some diary entries so enjoy the luxury of reading it.

Ich wand einst einen Veilchenkranz
Bei mondschimmer und sternenglanz
Die Nachtigall schlug - es fiel ein Tau
Und schmückt mit Perlen die blumenau

Ach dacht ich, wenn der Morgen graut,
Wird auch mein Kränzchen übertaut
Dann blühen die Veilchen noch einmal so schön
Und werden den Tag über Kühlung mir wehn.

Der Morgen kam, die Lerche schwang
Vom Saatgefilde sich auf und sang
Ich sah mein Kränzchen vom strahl umglüht
Ich sah mein Kränzchen es war verblüht.

Da freute mich das Sonnenlicht
Mich freute das Lied der Lerche nicht.
Ich weinte und blickte mit trüben Sinn
Auf meine verwelkten Blumen hin.

Ein Lüftchen wehte mir leise zu
Du armes Kind was weinest du?
Was blickt du aufs Kränzchen mit trüben Sinn?
Was einmal verwelkt, ist auf ewig dahin.

Auf ewig, rief ich in bittrem Schmerz
Und drücke die Blumen ans Bange Herz.
Lebt wohl denn, ihr duftet auf ewig nicht mehr.
Dies Kränzchen hieß Hoffnung. Drum wein ich so sehr.

>>16539501
I understand that the Faustian culture is not hte successor of the Apollonion one. What I am saying is that it rose out of the Germanic tribes who invaded the Western Roman Empire. Even though the classical civilization died, a new European culture was born.

Can a new culture emerge without some kind of barbarian group injecting its energy into the dying or dead civilization? That seems to be a common theme when reading about the early stages of a culture. Could, for example, midwestern whites in America who seal themselves off from the decline of our civilization end up giving birth to something new which is no longer Faustian but still Germanic and Aryan?

>>16539515
Would Spengler have approved of race mixing? Didn't he say the strong will accept good foreigners into the tribe or something? He seemed to be talking about groups which we would today think of as being the same race but would this also apply to Blacks or Asians?

>>16539515
Do you study Spengler for a living? If not, what do you do?

>>16509942

Explain libshittery to me. The gynocentrism, the self and envy. The dogmatism, the orgies of mass grief and sentiment that have no basis or explanation like with these recent mass riots. Break it all down to me, how would spengler interpret modern day libshittery in America and Europe

>>16539639

>self

Self hatred, sorry phonepost

>>16539552
Here is the quote I was thinking of from The Hour of Decision.

"But in speaking of race, it is not intended in the sense in which it is the fashion among anti-Semites in Europe and America to use it today: Darwinistically, materially. Race purity is a grotesque word in view of the fact that for centuries all stocks and species have been mixed, and that warlike - that is, healthy - generations with a future before them have from time immemorial always welcomed a stranger into the family if he had "race," to whatever race it was he belonged. Those who talk too much about race no longer have it in them. What is needed is not a pure race, but a strong one, which has a nation within it.

This manifests itself above all in self-evident elemental fecundity, in an abundance of children, which historical life can consume without ever exhausting the supply. God is, in the familiar words of Frederick the Great, always on the side of the big battalions, and now if ever this shows itself. The millions who fell in the World War were the pick of all the white world had in the way of race, but the test of race is the speed with which it can replace itself. A Russian once said to me: "The Russian woman will make good in ten years what we sacrificed in the Revolution." That is the right instinct. Such races are irresistible. The trivial doctrine of Malthus, preached everywhere today, which extols barrenness as progress, only proves that these intellectuals have no "race," not to mention the idiotic idea that economic crises can be surmounted by an atrophied population. It is just the other way round. The "big battalions," without which there is no world policy, give protection, strength, and internal riches to the economic life also."

>>16509942
bump

>>16509942
Could Spengler or a Spenglerian give an idea on how between 1492 and 1914, Europeans conquered 84 percent of the globe ?

>>16539816
le faustian will to the horizon. No seriously that is Spengler's answer.

>>16539827
How will he ever recover?

>>16539816
>1492 and 1914, Europeans conquered 84 percent of the globe
One issue I have had again and again with other explanations history is why other cultures specifically have not. Racialism (that being other races are smarter then others), would claim its because other cultures were less intelligent then western man, the opposite would claim that it is only due to the West's unique geography. The former is wrong due to the fluidity of intelligence over time, there are disgenic effects on collective intelligence along with eugenic effects on intelligence over time in which cultures experience. So to say the Chinese were just never smart enough would see in opposition to all the other great developments they unlocked, and given the fact that many times they had the resources to colonize the world if they so pleased. But yet, they time and time again burned their boats and favored to stay the middle kingdom. Was this because they were stupid? Nope, but because there is something else that informed their choices, which leads us back to the question.

The geographic theory on the other hand leaves all of the west's exploits up to chance, a theory in which upon further scrutiny seems wrong as well. Meso-America had better food sources then the west, and could have domesticated the buffalo like how the Sumerians domesticated their own buffalo into oxen. But they did not. You can say many things about what caused this to happen and not, but at this point its not a question of geography, but a question of why did some people do some things and other different things. Even during the dark ages, when the Norse raided the European heartland the monks still found time to make clocks and machines, all the while in Roman Civilization we have little to no evidence any such thing was taking place. Why?

The Spenglerian theory says this is because each culture has a different outlook on the world. Western Culture, which he calls Faustian, is to strive for boundless space. It did so at its start by building massive buildings that broke the heavens, it then explored the world, it then built weapons that for once would make combat all about firing at a distance, it then made laws which were universal and not bounded to a particular spot or time or God. All of this is the Faustian will to the infinite. The Romans and Greeks were the opposite they hated exploring and so did very little. The Chinese would wander, but then would always come back. And so the answer to your question, the west controlled most of the known world because it was a pre-programmed cultural drive to want to do so.

>>16509942
What comes after winter? Is it just Dasein?

>>16509942
What do you think of Southeast Asia? Is it ahistorical like the Sub-Sahara?

>>16540071
Spengler seems like the most coherent and least Eurocentric philosopher of history out there. Others always equate the Faustian spirit with human nature and put the west above the others by saying that they were the first to have the possibilities to achieve it. The mosy interesting example he gives in this respect is the discovery of the heliocentric system in Ancient Greece that nobody cared about, but which was embraced after the West rediscovered it and could defend it against the Magian influence of Christianity

>>16539552
>>16539648
His technical usage of "race" allows for things like miscegenation to not actually affect a nation, but I think he'd see mass migration as almost always being disastrous precisely because it is almost always not the unification of two groups with shared ideals, but rather forcing two groups with differing ideals to live together.

>>16509942
Who is Oswald Spengler?
I had never heard the name before.

Did Spengler ever talk at all about psychoanalysis?

>>16540652

Part of Indian civilization

>>16509942
Was he really that bald or did he shave his head? Did it make him cold?

>>16541018
Baldness can increase IQ due to better cranial ventilation

>>16537323
agreed, been checking in daily, bump

What are you supposed to get out of Spengler?

I'm not interested in intellectual masturbation of the ravings of mad men. I read for pragmatic purposes. What utility can I get out of Spengler's works?

What if he's just another doomer and the course we're on right now might be drastically different to what he envisioned? Nobody fucking expected Trump or any of this SJW shit 15 years ago. There is a great upheavel happening in the world. America is moving to the far left, Europe is moving to the far right.

Also, it's amusing how Spengler deems Chinese culture died long ago and remains dead when the Chinese of today are Manchurian invaders who have absolutely nothing to do with the Ancient Chinese who he judged.

>>16541341
You're right, no one expected Trump 15 years ago. Spengler did 100 years ago, though. That's where his usefulness lies: his predictions actually come true.

And you're wrong about China. A culture does not "go away" when it dies (>>16532764) so even if the Han had been totally annihilated (they weren't), it wouldn't matter. The Manchu are of the same "race" as the Han, because they are both people of Chinese Civilization.

>>16541376
>descendants of Xiongnu scum
>Chinese
top zozzle

>>16540952
I'm back, but now getting more specific. Is Philippines part of Faustian, Indian or Sinic Civilization? Why? Thank you.

>>16509942
What would Spengler think of Chris Chan?

>>16541394
Manchu have literally nothing to do with the Xiongnu

>>16541394
See >>16541376 and >>16540770.

Is 4channel Faustian?

>>16541341
>America is moving to the far left, Europe is moving to the far right.
No they aren't. You can no longer think in superficial terms like right and left. Actually Spengler's philosophy contextualizes exactly what is going on now: in America politics is devolving into a Caesarian power struggle, while Europe is beginning to be overcome with nostalgia for its past in the form of neo nationalism, which is not nationalism at all, but a bleak sentimentalism that emphasizes pan-European heritage in reaction to globalization and immigration. This neo nationalism does not emphasize the differences between nations, but rather their common European heritage. Both these things signify that the West is moving into the final stage, the imperial age, the age of the universal state. Politics is no longer between left and right, but between power and conservation: the synthesis of which is the essence of Caesarism.

>>16509942
bump

>>16539522
have sex incel lol

OP

>>16539522
>Can a new culture emerge without some kind of barbarian group injecting its energy into the dying or dead civilization?

Yes certainly. That is what Yockey hoped for shortly before his death. The Slavic hordes served in his eyes the purpose of revitalizing the west to some degree. But overall that's definitely possible.

>Could, for example, midwestern whites in America who seal themselves off from the decline of our civilization end up giving birth to something new which is no longer Faustian but still Germanic and Aryan?

I highly doubt something like this ever happened or will happen. They already are part of a culture and when that one ends its life they'll regress to a fellaheen state of existence where they're more nature than history.

>>16539552
>>16539648
Spengler certainly wouldn't have approved of large scale mixture with the culture-outsider (the barbarian) but I doubt he'll have a problem in individual cases. As he says in the quote you posted, strong people always end up procreating with each other.

>>16539816
Pretty much this: >>16540071. If you've ever seen a Gothic cathedral from western Europe and really looked at it you'd understand. Or maybe you won't.

>>16540127
To my understanding, Dasein is so vague that it could be applied to high-cultures and fellaheen ahistorical people but I might just not know enough on the topic or I'm mixing something up.
After winter if a civilisation persists it's essentially like a dead tree still standing in the forest. It's still there but nothing is gonna happen with except if something living comes along and does something with it. The civilization and its peoples are ahistorical insofar as they're no longer subject of history but object. The people of the civilization will be pure nature.

Now as I wrote a few times before in this thread I don't think our culture will persist like those of China and India have done in the ossified dead state which characterises them. I also don't believe it'll go out with a whimper like the apollonian culture did. It'll die in a cataclysmic Apocalypse like event. For us Faustian culture men there will be no "after winter".

>>16540652
>>16541542
It's all Indian (although I'm not 100% sure about the Philippines)

>>16540764
Relativism is a big part of Spengler's work. Rightfully so.

>>16540946
He did not think highly of psychology in general. I'm trying to remember what he said and if I remember it I will answer your question later or ill read about it and then answer it. Personally, I think Freud is a hack and wrote mainly bs, but I like Jung.

>>16541018
I have a very rare pic of him as a young man. I'll post it later.

>>16541341
He's not 'just another doomer' at all. His predictions have been so accurately correct that anyone who stumbles across him and does not engage with him is directly frustrating their potential. He predicted people like Ted K. or the Siege-tards in the 1930s. He was the first to warn about climate change.

Continuation of the last OP post

He was almost right with his fear of Germany not existing in 1946. Only through pure luck Germany prevailed. He is right with his predictions about populism, the coloured masses' revolt, the white revolutionaires, technology and many more things. I don't know how I could make it clearer that you very much can gain practical knowledge from reading Spengler.

>>16539639
Liberalism in all its forms should have died in 1918. But America frustrated Europe's destiny. It did so again in 1941. After ww2 the extra European powers of the soviet union and the USA forces liberalism (something that should have stayed in the 19th century) upon Europe as a means of subjugating and dividing it. The universalism inherent in liberalism is a sign of Faustian culture. Every facet of liberalism is expressed through this universalistic way. It's dogmatic because it has to contend with the spirit of the age in every facet of life and since its time is long overdue it has to forcefully suppress all opposing views and lie and cheat so it can stay as prevalent as it is. A way of governing, an ideology or a simply a worldview that fits the spirit of the age would have no need for lies. It would exercise itself simply by actualizing and fulfilling its destiny. Liberalism will soon crumble to dust anyway. It's been long overdue.

The recent mass riots and the self-hatred are part of the revolt of the coloured masses and the white revolutions.

>>16539612
I go to school.

>>16542080
No.

This is the picture of a young Spengler I talked about. He's somewhere between 18 and 20 here, so it has to be in 1901 - 1903.

Is the coming Caesar a good guy or a bad guy?

>>16512813
Some of these don't make sense. How is infinite space reflected in a primeval forest? Infinite space makes me think of a desert.

Same for Mesoamerican jungles and an all-devouring cosmic cycle. Not sure I see the connection there.

>>16542935
>For us Faustian culture men there will be no "after winter".
Did Spengler say this or is this your opinion? What will become of us? Are you saying life of Earth will be destroyed by our advancements in technology?

>>16542935
>He was the first to warn about climate change.
Where did he warn about climate change?

>I go to school.
For what?

>>16543147
based and stache-pilled

>>16543115
Did Spengler ever talk about D'Annunzio? Also, is it Faustian to zap to the extreme?

>>16543192
It's not infinite space, it's an infinite 3D grid. It's quantized. Space can be infinitely subdivided. Apollonian Man knew all about space, but he had no desire to divide it, or move through it with any direction, as he was just concerned with discrete bodies orbiting each other. For Spengler, each Culture-Civilization has a part of mathematics that they focus on. For Faustian Man, it was calculus: the mapping of space.

A desert would be akin to Russia's Flat Plane, as there is only 2D space, you can never look "up", as you can with the Primeval Forest.

For the Mesoamerican Jungles, it's literal: the jungle is a constant mass of life. Even the plants are fighting each other. If you want more on this read Aztec Philosophy. tl;dr process philosophy.

>>16543547
Why is Russia not viewed as being a superorganism in the same way the West or the Magian superorganism are? Russia has its own distinct culture, symbols, and empires. It has risen and fallen. What does Russia lack?

>>16543547
This is helpful. Thank you.

>>16543261
not him but yes, Promethean Gnosis has vid called Spenglers apocalyptic vision of history which goes into this, or just actually read man and technics and works where he expounds on this, most Spenglerians prob agree with destructive vision of history, but not all. As discussed earlier in thread maybe Faustian culture expands infinitely in (literally infinite) space.

>>16543639
It is. Russia as a sort of Slavic culture generally, Spengler believed Slavic/Russian culture was forming as we speak. Some ITT have said it looks to be in a Spring phase.
Aka, it lacks nothing it is a culture and is in fact developing. It is a superorganism.

>>16543115
What are the lies and cheats liberalism uses to persist?

>>16544248

Not him but I'd assume things like state bailouts, liberal hegemony being used to suppress dissident groups (through things like shutting down bank accounts etc.). Suppression of illiberal science. Since criticism against liberalism has accelerated on two fronts, both in theory and practical economics, you see the system pushing back harder. Like the previous poster said as well, liberalism arguably would have ended in Europe if not for American intervention.

>"Plato and Goethe stand for the philosophy of Becoming, Aristotle and Kant the philosophy of Being... "
Why does he link Plato with Becoming instead of Being like I usually see him being linked with? Doesn't he care more for eternal things than things in flux which are less real to him?

>>16513154
>>16513218
>Yes, I think we're in the 'winter' of the Faustian culture's lifespan
Suppose Spengler's model requires a further stage past Faustian -- without regressing to a prior stage/total reset collapse, what does this constitute if Faustian Man goes interplanetary; what are the obstacles to this (lingering Magian influence/antimonies in particular)

>>16544803
Not him; Faustian isn't a stage, it's an "organism". Spengler's view is that when Faustian Civilization shits the bed, it will take everyone with it because of its globalizing, powerful nature. The death of Apollonian Man put cities to the sword, what would the "Death" of a civilization with nuclear weapons entail? Whether the nukes fly or not, you can see the point being made.

If Faustian Man actually DOES make it to space (let's assume with the technology to make "exosolar travel feasible") then I assume that Faustian Man could just keep growing forever, seeding life as it goes along, only really existing at the edges of a slowly expanding bubble (those who remain eventually become something other than Faustian). This is a purely technical, and frankly I don't think that we as humans will be able to get such technology for a long time.

Having said that, I totally agree with the thesis that Magian Man (through global Jewish Finance) is strangling Faustian Man. The same thing happened with Apollonian Man: the Magian worldview of the domed world (and thus, the capacity for all-encompassing control) is just too seductive to those with imperial ambitions. We actually see this crop up well before Constantine, and even Diocletian: Alexander's empire became increasingly Persian (Magian) as conquered areas began to settle down.

>>16544893
Here is an interesting fact, we actually have much of the technology for this. It would take 10 years to construct a permanent base on the moon, there is enough materials in mineable asteroids to more than make up for original cost by massive orders of magnitude. The initial cost, while seemingly staggering is really not that much, 40 Billion dollars could do it. The cost of 'browntown' in America is about a trillion dollars (adding up most income to crime/factors + welfare payments and such. Alt Hype has a video on this if you're interested). Point being the wealth and technology for Faustian civilization is already here in terms of entering and colonizing aspects of space, at least wrt our solar system. What's missing is political power and will. Trust me as Caesar, Lucius or basic legionnaire I am going to do all I can to get these motherfuckers into space.

Isaac Arthur is a youtube channel that details how humanity could colonize the galaxy WITHOUT ftl tech, no wormholes just takes a very long time but there's no barrier stopping us. So realistically speaking galactic colonization is not as big a block as it may seem. We just need to not be outbred/swarmed by barbarinas, suicide, or climatically collapse before that happens. In my estimation the goal of any Faustian should be to do this, and gain possibility of infinite expansion. If it doesn't work out oh well going to try anyway.

>>16545062
It won't happen until the 22nd century though. Morphologically equivalent with the massive expansion of the Roman empire in the 1st century.

>>16545088
true, though I would hope to see its beginnings before I die

>>16545062
huh?

>>16545088
Spengler didn't account for the formation of an entirely new kind of metaphysical organism, the world-spanning Jew Culture whose birth we are only now witnessing

>>16545152
Antisemitism is infantile.

>>16545161
The recognition of unhelpful or competing foreign interests is not infantile in any sense, and only jews get a special word just for people who don't like their influence on their countries in the modern world, which tells you something.

>>16545161
Antisemitism? Au contraire mon ami, I accept the dominance of the Jew in the new World-Culture, that is his natural station, as the nobility were in the old Cultures. No longer tied to soil, the World-Culture's deterritorialized merchant structure could only have the world's oldest intact, most cunning and ethnocentric, clan at its helm. The Culture is in fact being created by the very process of the Jew ascending to this position, just as nobles conquering a people create the birth of a traditional kingdom.

>>16545161
Is recognition the same as being anti-thing?

>>16545188
Spengler said antisemitism was a result of Magean Jews being further advanced than Faustian civilization and that it would disappear as Faustian civilization caught up with the Magean. Which has indeed happened in the mainstream consciousness.

>>16545221
>>16545221
It hasn't its on the rise negro, multiple studies about this, it declined only in wake of American liberal democracies overwhelming victory in the World Wars. As liberalism falls, which Spengler predicts, anti-semitism will rise.

Also, in all seriousness, in what terms of advanced do you mean here, as in further along their civilizations path? And why does this resentment not exist towards any other civilizations. In fact why is it solely Jews and not other members of Magean civilization that this affects? Genuine questions

>>16545263
>in what terms of advanced do you mean here, as in further along their civilizations path?
Yes. Culture-Civilization dichotomy. Culture has an aesthetic outlook and focuses its efforts into art and religion while Civilization has a pragmatic ethical outlook directing its energy towards economics. The Jews as Civilization people have lived unwanted in Europe for many centuries resulting in this existential tension between two different high cultures at different stages of development. I would argue that throughout modern history the Chinese have been perceived by Westerners as money grubbing backstabbing thieves as much as the Jews have been, and they're on the other side of the world.

>>16545314
If I understand you, the Jews have been in economic focused stage, contrasting with Faustians when they were focused on culture, that should be gone now as Faustian man has entered the age of the rule of money. Also, China is an ossified higher culture and so we can look to them for other examples of this same sort of view as anti-semitism. It seems implied that since Faustian man and Magean Jews lived close together this created tension which did not exist in further away China, so closeness between High Cultures increases tension.

If that is so, there is a massive subcontinent sized hole in this view. There are no conceptions of Indians as money grubbing and they are far closer to Faustian man than China, were interacted with more by trade, as when northern Europeans were sailing the rivers into the Caspian sea to trade with Eurasian powers, hence the Buddhas discovered in burial mounds in Sweden. Also, they were colonized first. There is neither a word for anti-indianism or anti-chinaism, and if the claim is this is due to proximity one has to explain why China gets a worse wrap then India when India was closer and a dead higher culture by the time Faustian man came on the scene.

I will instead put forward my view, as is noted by the Spengler expert in this thread, Spengler did not have access to all the information we do now and these are the primary source of errors in his theory, which is still true but cannot encompass information that was discovered decades after his death. One of these things is the advancements in genetics, we know traits are influenced by genetics, we know the extent of genetic influence among many different things. I propose that groups traditionally stereotyped as one thing or another are done so due to a correct judgement, if general. Muscly strongman eastern euro types and fast Kenyans, this is heavily influenced by genetics. Jewish people likely have a higher in group preference, and have genetically selected themselves over a long period of time to act in general predictable patterns, Chinese people may be more likely to cheat you than say Indians, and that is reflected by stereotypes, accounting for exceptions ofc. Furthermore, the desire for self-rule and self-determination is a natural thing, and most of the facts called 'anti-semetic' are recognitions of power being held over European/white/Faustian/Slavic peoples (and others 'whites' aren't the only people who are anti-semetic, which is another blow to the High culture with tensions against another High Culture theory) by non-natives. If a Jewish person is in a position of influence, and must make a choice between saving a Jewish individual and a gentile, a highly ethnocentric group will favor its own, this is not necessarily a negative, but it is when that position of power is over gentiles, creating unfavorable conditions for them. There is simply nothing wrong with desiring your own people to have control over your own countries.

>>16539501
>apollonian (Greco-Roman) culture
Eleusinian myseries (Orphic, Dionysian, Pythagorean) being a precondition of elite status through to Roman times with Mithraist cults ~ reaching for an inversion of this with scientific rationality technocracy and hypernormalised, nihilistic mass public

>>16545447
>Spengler did not have access to all the information we do now
Spengler's views on the Aztecs despite a lot of the stuff on their thought being literally unknown at the time of his writing is part of why I believe that he was tapping into something. The fact that he hit the nail on the head so firmly while knowing so little is pretty shocking in my opinion.

>>16545193
This isn't even the first time that another Culture-Civilization has had dark dalliances with the Magian world. Apollonian Man did this as well. A recognition of the power (and danger) Magian Man possesses is anything but "infantile". You can respect a tiger while being fully ready to shoot it if it gets anywhere near you.

It should also be noted that "The Jews" can be separated from "Judaism as a system". Jews are some of the biggest victims of Jewry-as-a-power-structure. Do you think that Maimonides and Rashi would feel anything but disgust if they could see Mark Zuckerberg and Jared Kushner? The Jews are just as much of a part in a much larger system as you or I.

>>16545872
Oh yeah I agree with you r first point 100%, still have a lot of respect for the guy, and taking the poet approach has a lot of benefits for being able to predict seemingly unpredictable events and coming to conclusions that someone only using empirical means simply would not e capable of doing, certainly not for his time!

>>16545204
No.

This thread successfully turned me off the prospect of reading Spengler.

What a trite and rank pile of garbage here.

>>16546417
What don't you like?

>>16546417
What’s your critique?