/lit/ - Literature

I think you're conflating readers with fandom.

Probably because our culture "for some reason" has created the impression that by emulating fictional characters, or the positive traits thereof, you become a loser and lower your value rather than raise it. Think about it. If someone said they work out because they watched a load of DBZ you'd make fun of them and say they're lame and will never be goku. Even if they're fucking stacked, and by doing so they've improved their life significantly.

>>16949749
Renaissance Fairs, Real Steel, LARP, Cons, becoming a fantasy writer, you really didn't think this one out, did you?

>>16949763
That's so dumb.
Ancient legends of heroes were made precisely to inspire people to be strong and brave.

>>16949749
>author insert power fantasy where they have everything and sacrifice nothing
yeah, another mystery for the ages

>>16949749
Fantasy readers read fantasy, because they are losers who dont do these things, so for a few hours every week they pretend they are super human characters shooting seas of semen while raping dragon maidens.

If they had any serious aim for self-improvement, they worldview would make them more interested in more down to earth and reasonable story materials.

>>16949749
>>16949848

>>16949763
>If someone said they work out because they watched a load of DBZ you'd make fun of them and say they're lame and will never be goku.
>>16949839
Sometime ago I was thinking about start doing the One Punch Man routine.

>>16949839

Our society/culture is precisely calibrated to prevent people from being strong and brave.

>>16949749
fantasy readers are mentally handicaped. They just read the same shit genre because they lack capacity to try decent literature and humanities

>>16949877

Why not both? Lately I've been reading one literary thing (currently Moby Dick which frankly could drop 30% of itself and lose nothing. That is, the chapters about whale skull shape) then take a break and let it soak into my brain a bit by reading some kinda sci-fi or whatever, then another literary thing. I think it's better to put space between pieces of literature, to give yourself time to think about them. If you just speedrun the western canon you won't get anything out of it.

>>16949871
>>If someone said they work out because they watched a load of DBZ you'd make fun of them and say they're lame and will never be goku.

If you are a loser, you aim towards being superman, a winner just wants to be a man.

People who watch DBZ dont lift, people who watch Rocky, do, why? One is fantasy, the other not, is grounded in reality.

Anything not grounded in reality, is the domain of losers, people who can not life in reality, being a winner means conquering reality.

>>16949872
I figured that then societal outcasts would rebel against the normies by going ubermensch or something.

>>16949883
I want to ask you a question, in what reality is scifi grounded?

>>16949889

It's not. I mean there's hard sci-fi that's less fantastical, etc, but, ultimately sci-fi is generally speaking entertainment fiction which may have a good idea or two, because it's usually in some very very small degree speculative. "how did we get there" is a thought that the book may not address but you might have because of the book anyway. But ultimately, it's just entertainment reading in most cases.

Why do you ask?

the point is escapism

>>16949884
I dont agree completely, even if a character or hero isnt grounded in reality, he can still ispire people and works as a model just as well

>>16949763
i like the jojo fandom due to this because ive seen a lot of people say they started working out due to jojo and everyone supported it
>>16949749
do readers of other genres adopt the values that are promoted by that genre? i dont think most do.

>>16949884

I find that a strange mindset. I'm ok with the idea that most people who watch DBZ don't lift. But those who do, does the source of the inspiration for their improvment undermine their results?

>>16949762
exactly. fandom always produces the same behavior no matter what the substance of the work is because "fans" have a relationship with the branding, not the work. the point is just nerd consumerism and a star wars fan sees no contradiction in playing with plastic spaceships to express his adoration for a movie in which playing with plastic spaceships is used to characterize the hero as miserable.

>>16949899
>Why do you ask?
Then whats the point, not to be entertained, you can do that with non scifi fiction.

>>16949905
>I dont agree completely, even if a character or hero isnt grounded in reality, he can still ispire people and works as a model just as well
Alright, why go with a failed character with Goku who will inspire less people then a realistic character like Rocky.

>>16949915
>I find that a strange mindset
Then you are no doubt a loser. Always aiming for high things you can never reach, instaid of the stairs right in front of your nose.

>>16949933

I wouldn't even know how to respond to this. Why enjoy things you enjoy?

>>16949937

You ignored my actual question and point in favor of an insult that makes you feel self righteously virtuous. The move of a true winner.

>>16949948
>I wouldn't even know how to respond to this. Why enjoy things you enjoy?
If you had read a little bit of serious literature and would occasionally wax philosophically about certain issues, you would have a response.

Your worldview is completely infantile, and I suggest you treat life more seriously.

Start with watching and reading media with either a more human element, this got me out of my scifi autism.

>>16949948
>You ignored my actual question
I will awnser the question, what do you think offers a better source about how to grow and maintain the human body, DBZ or ... a manual about getting fit.

If you awnser with the manual, then you have to agree wasting your time on cartoons is counter productive.

>>16949962

As I said, I read plenty of "serious literature". I just do both. I've been working my way through some classics recently. I just intersperse it with sci-fi or other genre stuff. I strongly believe that taking breaks and thinking about things and letting stuff stand on its own for a bit is useful.

And yes I think anyone can agree that actual sources on nutrition and exercise are what you should read/watch/learn from. That's not the point though. The point is that if someone who's out of shape watches DBZ and says wow, I should work out and get in shape, then goes and uses those other, actual fitness resources, the fact that their original inspiration was "Damn, Vegeta is cool" doesn't undermine their later results.

I don't think taking intaking entertainment, in the form of cartoons, video games, genre fiction, music, whatever, is inherently bad so long as you are budgetting time for it around the obligations you have that accomplish your goals. Ie: if you skip working out to watch DBZ that's bad.

>>16949883
>implying the digression chapters in moby dick aren't the best ones
Absolute state of fantasyfags

>>16949993

The actual story is great, and the language is fantastic. I think there might be a tiny bit too much explaining of the book's own symbolism. The novels explains like twice that yeah man, turning the coffin into a life preserver is an inversion of life and death, and how weird will it be to have a bunch of guys all fighting over one coffin oh ho.

But still, minor criticisms.

>>16949884
>rocky
>grounded in reality
lmao have you even watched those movies?

>>16949962
You're definitely a sperg, your didactics are hilarious and pathetic

>>16949763
Oh what a fool you are my friend, you think we emulate fiction? Not a chance my friend, please be ashamed of yourself, you empty daft!

>>16949937
Fist of all my english sucks

There might be many reason for that, for example, one of which (if i understood correctly its what you are saying) is familiarity in a sense that we feel closer to rocky because he is portraited like a human being with more "earthly" characteristics while goku is a space alien that fight monsters and becomes stronger by changing hair color. However while some people can prefer rocky as a model and character i doubt ALL people would, some can sympathize more with goku's struggles and his adventures even if they are more detached from reality.
Another reason might be how well written a character is, who then manages to awake something in us, and well or bad written characters exist both in fantasy stories and stories more grounded in reality. Personality also is a factor i think.

>>16949749
Possibly because fantasy is an empty genre. Who else would read these books? if it weren't for little , stroppy, middle age men in rain style jackets and assorted paraphernalia.

>>16949763
>If someone said they work out because they watched a load of DBZ you'd make fun of them and say they're lame and will never be goku.
Obviously, why wouldn't I?

>he watches corporate funded anime for literal children and young teens
>he's "inspired to improve" by them, as if they have any positive message to spread other than being an angry retard solves all your problems
The mexicans on this board are always a laugh and a half

>>16949883
>currently Moby Dick which frankly could drop 30% of itself and lose nothing.
God just fuck off to wherever shithole you crawled out of.

>>16949839
Yeah but those ingrained in the culture of those civilisations unlike pop culture characters which are just made for consumption.

>>16950988

Tell me more about the difference between Right whales and Sperm whales by fin shape.

>>16950029
The first movie is pretty realistic man, though Rocky going the distance is definitely in the realm of fantasy (though not too crazy if you consider how little his opponent took the whole affair seriously).

>>16949763
Many such cases! Sad!

>>16951016
The main theme of the book is literally obsession. The technical and scientific exposition were never filler, they are the literal and metaphorical context the book is derived on.

>>16949749
I adopted the wizzard Rincewind's main strategy; run away. I always agree with the Librarian when he says "Ook" (and YES, I carry an emergency banana with me at all times). I agree with Cohen the Barbarian about the importance of hot soup and soft toiletpaper.

I very much agree with Conan the Barbarian on the subject of people who use magic; if I ever meet one I'll be sure to attempt a beheading.

>>16949763
You're right that if it is productive and shit. Yeah that's awesome. But there definitely is the people who over identity with a character to where it impedes their growth.

Like the cringey, one episode of Mad Men, type gentleman. Or hyper autism taking Sherlock as an ideal or something.

I guess I see more often people reduce more complicated characters to whatever. Like that's kinda the whole reason the fedora meme exists.

>>16951407
>But there definitely is the people who over identity with a character to where it impedes their growth.

A good example is the fellow above you who seems to use goofy humour as a way of dealing with life.

>>16951202

>>16950159
>some can sympathize more with goku's struggles and his adventures even if they are more detached from reality.
> even if they are more detached from reality.
>more detached from reality

No, they cant.

>>16950029
>lmao have you even watched those movies?
You are missing the point, arent you, I didnt claim its not a little bit fantastical, but that it is more grounded in reality then dbz, therefor more useful.

>>16950034
>You're definitely a sperg, your didactics are hilarious and pathetic
I will just call myself the victor of the debate.

>>16949983
>And yes I think anyone can agree that actual sources on nutrition and exercise are what you should read/watch/learn from. That's not the point though
That is exactly the point, because someone who watches dbz doesnt do so because they might get in shape, they do so because they dont want to get in shape.

Now let me turn it around, how many people who wanted to get into shape, ended up watching dbz and ended up becoming addicted to that shlock and giving up their gym dreams.

You seem to suggest the first (dbz) must follow the second (fit), when in reality, people abandon their goal of fitness to go watch cartoons.

>>16951518

I didn't say that one must follow the other. I said that one can follow the other.

You don't watch/read something with the definite intention to be inspired to X. That's not how inspiration works.

I couldn't truly even begin to guess how many people have started/stopped working out due to DBZ. However, to claim that a book on exercise and nutrition is a better manual for exercise and nutrition than a cartoon about jacked guys fighting, and therefor people should only be inspired by the former is absurd.

>>16949749
Because the point of fantasy is to live vicariously.

>>16949884
>tfw reality is unconquerable and being a winner is acknowledgement of your powerlessness before God

>>16951782
>tfw the urge to conquer reality is literally the Devil whispering sweet nothings into your frequency receptor (mind-thoughts)

>>16949763
>our culture
That is nothing but a common sense. Instead of going your own path you figure out yourself, all your personality has is a DBZ that inspired you. And then there's a difference between ancient legends, tested with time, and a temporary show/book made for cash.
So, the next day something else inspires you, how would you know? Fictional character is a representation of personality, but NOT the personality itself. What you do by emulating a fictional character is mere copying his fictional signs and attributes, you just copy the appearance - just like wearing Guy Fawkes mask won't make you a hacker, wearing someone's else personality won't make you the personality itself.

You become a loser simply because your way of arguing depicts you as living in a fictional reality, it has nothing to do with culture. When you start to argue in a way "I want to become strong because I have realized that ...", that becomes a completely different story, that way you can make people to respect your decision, even if your realization came after a fictional show.

>>16949993
The worst part is that the digression chapters are there to establish worldbuilding. And here I thought fantasyfags were supposed to love worldbuilding?

Whatever. I think the fantasyfags are simply fake and gay.

>>16949763
That’s because you shouldn’t need the encouragement. I think it is the secularism in our culture these days, but people who think that movies are real life deserve to be savagely mocked. To me it demonstrates a lack of objectivity, you shouldn’t need fables to strive for things beyond childhood.

>>16949883
>I think it's better to put space between pieces of literature, to give yourself time to think about them
Cope
>reads one chapter of moby dick
>reads a capeshit scifi book
>reads one chapter of moby dick
...

>>16951987

More like read a literary book, read something else for a bit, read a new literary book. Not one chapter, jesus.

>>16951757
>However, to claim that a book on exercise and nutrition is a better manual for exercise and nutrition than a cartoon about jacked guys fighting, and therefor people should only be inspired by the former is absurd.
It literally is not, it makes perfect sense to be inspired by an actual manual on physical fitness, and not by a cartoon.

>>16951782
>>16951792

God doesnt exist, there is a divine aspect to reality, but it is mostly impersonal, vast, unhuman and beyond good and evil.

Your belief in God is just an excuse for being a failure.

>>16952199
> God doesnt exist
Citation needed, faggot.

>>16951987
>>16952036
Its just an excuse for the guy, because he doesnt have the attention span to finish a book from beginning to end. Thats fine, he just shouldnt claim that his bad taste and lack of attention span makes him superior.

The entire fantasy crowd is just one big cope, typical middle class people who pretend their failures in life are somehow victories.

>>16952205
>Citation needed, faggot.
No, there is literally nothing in reality to indicate a God, there is plenty to indicate some kind of divine reality, like laws of nature, or morality, but that doesnt require God and I dare you to arque otherwise.

>>16952199

You don't read a manual on physical fitness until you're already interested in becoming physically fit. How is this complicated?

>>16952274
>You don't read a manual on physical fitness until you're already interested in becoming physically fit. How is this complicated?

Society makes you interested, anime destroys that interest, how is that complicated?

Its not like physical fitness is some obscure hobby you can only discover through cheaply made animes, its a fairly popular social movement.

I can understand someone watching a Viking show and wanting to read old norse, but animes just has the exact opposite effect.

Thats not difficult to understand.

>>16952304

That's not how inspiration works. You see something that makes you think "Man, I want to be like that". Yes, of course there's plenty of objectively good reasons to get physically fit, but obviously since not everyone is physically fit, that pure analytical reasoning doesn't drive everyone's choice of interests. But the entire point of art is to inspire people. You already know painting exists. But seeing a great piece of art, or a biography about an artist, or a tv show about an artist, can inspire you to learn to paint.

>>16952335
The purpose of art is to inspire, the purpose of anime is to create a comfortable fantasy reality where you can identify with the main protagonist so you no longer have to strive to become something better.

DBZ is not art. Art by its very nature needs to be somewhat difficult and requires some effort to enter, no effort is required to enter the dbz universe, so by its very definition its not art.

The force that inspires people to become physical fit, is society, anime isolates you from society into a fantasy world, therefor shows like dbz undermine peoples ability to become better people.

Which is why most dbz fans are cheeto eating skinny nerds.

>>16952335
btw protip start watching shows with a more human element, you will discover the joy of humanity.

>>16952356

So you're saying, just to clarify, and ignoring the 0IQ take where you decide what is and isn't art, and also what causes people to desire fitness, is that no one has ever been inspired to physical fitness by DBZ? Are you asserting that?

>>16952367

I mostly read or play video games. In truth I don't watch a lot of stuff in recent times. Re-watched Deadwood fairly recently which I enjoyed.

Like I said, I've recently been alternating literary novels with sci-fi/genre fiction. Heart of Darkness, One Flew Over, and now Moby Dick. I haven't quite decided what I'm going to read after.

>>16949749
>Self-control, courage, loyalty, daring to aim high and having ambition, mastery, resilience, being in nature, and lastly, physical strength and athleticism.
Fantasy has always been escapism. That said these are less and less of these values and more narratives like "just bee yourself, this is patently false but you are aware you are reading fantasy and you don't care, now look, this hot chick now loves your shitty personality because you are The One and you have super powers"
Just look at Isekai. Look at Harry Potter in the movies (nobody thinks of the one in the books if he's any different) he's a massive pushover following instructions 90% of the time.
In general the relationship has changed from following a story, which enables you to take the protagonist as a role model, to something entirely build no self-validation. Now YOU are the hero. When zoomers read about the hero they are fetishizing and projecting themselves in the novel.

>>16952356
>Art by its very nature needs to be somewhat difficult and requires some effort to enter
What the fuck is this English major freshman shit

>>16952418
>So you're saying, just to clarify, and ignoring the 0IQ take where you decide what is and isn't art, and also what causes people to desire fitness, is that no one has ever been inspired to physical fitness by DBZ? Are you asserting that?

No.

>>16952418
>I haven't quite decided what I'm going to read after.
Anyway, I suggest you actively work on de-nerd-ifying yourself. If I can do it, so can others.

You are going in the right direction, just keep going.

>>16952443
>What the fuck is this English major freshman shit
Do you have some kind of argument, are you implying that something wich is literally pop, can have aristic merit? Because the fact that it is easy to enter, means it can not literally be art.

>>16952445

Nah, I have a variety of interests, some constructive, some entertaining. I will continue to pursue both. not everyone has to quit cold turkey on everything they like to go to the gym.

>>16949749
>Why is it that hardcore fantasy readers do not adopt any of the values that their literature promotes?
Let me edit that to connect some dots for you:
>Why is it that [any group] does not practice any of the values that their [any ideal] promotes?

>>16952516
They at least practiced some of the values. Now nobody has any values and they have started to actually look down on people who hold any.