/lit/ - Literature

>>17084239
i mean, people still try to bring in plato and aristotle to argue things like
>muh absolute morals
>penis is for vagina only
but really these notions are quickly becoming irrelevant even in america.

>>17084318
>Even in America
America is the world capital of degeneracy and it has been for quite a while.

>>17084324
that really depends on how you define degeneracy. america is much more conservative than many parts of the world.

>>17084239
Well I would say things like look at the results of these things and ask "do they bring more fulfilment and happiness to your life and will they lead to a better existence?" The answer is usually no, but the people wont care because they're generally stupid and/or brainwashed.

I would refer you to the child abuse and std statistics, and any media that is defined as queer.

common sense

>>17084346
>america is much more conservative than many parts of the world.
It is in some ways and it isn't in others

>>17084346
America literally imports woke culture overseas and you're all obsessed with niggers. Hookup culture is also everywhere.

Jordy B tried. It landed him in a coma in russia and turned his daughter into a whore.

>>17084239
The alt-right.

>>17084395
The "alt-right" isn't even a coherent political movement and they don't have a serious ethical system. Many people who would be referred to as "alt-right" are religious in some way or another as well.

>>17084239
Why do you care so much what other people do?

>>17084239
>degeneracy

>>17084395
funny how its so hard to find anyone who identifies as alt-right. Maybe its a Lefty dog whistle for, people we don't like.

>>17084422
Stirner is even less relevant than modern day religious thought.

>>17084412
Because they shove it in your face. Look at all the trap posts in this hole. If you just jerked off to questionable material no one would care.

>>17084346
All the things one would consider "degenerate" originate in the US and then get exported to western europe. The US is not "conservative" in any way, since it has no culture to conserve or defend.

>>17084446
4chan has been filled with stuff like trap porn since the beginning. If you don't like it, you should leave and try Reddit.

>>17084450
I wouldn't quite agree with this. Things that far right people consider to be the epitome of degeneracy like postmodernism all began outside US. America is literally built on top of a modernist foundation but the rest of the world has been already moving past modernism in the past few decades.

>>17084434
And? What do you define as degeneracy, anything you just subjectively deem to be icky, whatever makes you feel uncomfortable? If you need somebody to spoon-feed you arguments against "degeneracy," then why should anybody take you seriously?

>>17084239
Probably Late Stoicism probably fits the bill best, especially the works of Musonius Rufus. It has some religious overtones but not much at all. Also, you might want to read Alasdair MacIntyre's book After Virtue and the subsequent books in that series. He's Catholic but he goes about analyzing virtue ethics from a rational, biological standpoint.

>>17084507
>biological standpoint
please tell me it's better than
>penis is for vagina
>gay bad because aids

>>17084239
>secular standpoint
thus materialistic mono-dimensional standpoint.

That is a compartmentalized illusion of reality. A subjectivity that is entropic.

>>17084516
It's not that. He talks about how we have been atomized from community, which caused our moral decline because we are social animals and we cannot see how our actions affect one another as a result. Virtue, as laid out by Aristotle in the Nichomacaen Ethics (which is also a good read for you) involves the relation between the individual and the community and orienting the human person toward their ultimate telos in eudaimonia. He also dissects why the moralities of the Enlightenment have failed. It's a bit more complicated than that but that's the basic gist of it.

anything to be gained from drugs? especially psychs like shrooms or weed, or do i just need to grow up?

>>17084559
oh good, he's actually reasonable.

>>17084576
Psychadelics? Definitely. Weed can go either way; it's not going to give you the same benefits as psychs but if you enjoy it and don't use it in a maladaptive way, then go ahead.

>>17084604
Stop acting like you have the intellectual high ground. You can't formulate your own arguments or stances, coward.

>>17084446
I post it because it is cute
That's it, I'm not pushing any agenda
I pick pictures at random from my cute folder for thread starters

There is no agenda anon, it's actually random

bump

>>17084395
alt right is just the new counter culture that is powerfully suppressed

>someone please tell me why i believe the things i do

>>17084239
Plato

Chinese Legalism
if you do anything that threatens the stability of society in any way then you must be punished no matter what

>>17084744
Why post pictures at all, you dilute from the discussion and it's a distraction, you are pushing agenda whether you know it or not, grow up.

>>17084239
Kantian ethics
Tldr it’s only okay to do it if it would be okay for everyone on Earth to do it
Homosexuality is a no because then no reproduction would occur
Why are you so against drugs though? Some can be extremely helpful like psychedelics

>>17086282
>no reproduction would occur
how is this a bad thing?

>>17086282
drugs are even more immoral from a Kantian perspective wtf

>>17086695
Don’t necessarily agree with kantian ethics myself, just offering it as an option for OP
Although I don’t see anything wrong with everyone in the world tripping off acid personally

>>17084239
How about Reason?
>homosexuality
How does this benefit society? We spend a lot of money on HIV drugs, blood security, etc. because they keep getting HIV. Why do we need to do this?
>casual sex
Statistically, this is harmful to future family formation. Family formation is good because it leads to a stable and/or growing population, which is good because population is power.
>drug use
How is this beneficial to society? Again how much is this costing us to allow, look at areas on the US West Coat where they have designated injection streets that rapidly become designated shitting streets like in Mumbai.

What we actually have is a sentimental, religious reaction to Fascism preventing us from seeing the obviously harmful nature of these acts and trying to curtail them because doing so would be a near occasion of Hitler.

>>17086703
If homosexual couples get tested an don't have HIV, where is the problem for society?

That's a very niche standpoint, so there's probably not a lot of literature on it. Most people who oppose alternative lifestyles do so for perceived moral reasons (i.e. saving peoples' souls), not simply because they don't like those lifestyles on a personal level.

I dont understand why "degeneracy" is even a problem, who fucking cares if people fuck or do drugs? It just blows me away how people on /pol/ get so mad at this shit.

>>17086703
Don't equate reason with utilitarianism. Even if your arguments succeed in showing that such acts are harmful to society or mankind as a whole, they only hold sway over those who agree with the premise implicit in them: that an act is immoral in so far as it harms society.

>>17084239
Yes, there is, but I won't tell you as I don't want it to be sullied by idiotic right-wingers.

>>17084239
>Convincing people through religious arguments no longer works.
It's almost like no one cares and you're LARPing a centuries old ideology.

>>17084346
Southern culture is pretty conservative, in it's ideals. But the reality is that people are perverts and always have been. The point of having cultural mores is to anchor our behavior somewhere close to the healthy and productive side of the spectrum. The slippery slope is real. We all err. If common decency strays too far from the cisnormative then the progression beyond that will be truly vile.

Why is this so common on /lit/? People reach conclusions without arguments, then try and find something that retrospectively justifies their conclusions. Just accept the fact that you are wrong, and that without religious doctrine you don't have any reason to hold on to your childish hatred of other people.

>>17086801
It's pure LARPing. They just hate trannies, faggots and niggers but can't find actual reasons that don't rely in religion or some shitty appeal to nature, so they argue degeneracy destroys culture and civilization and muh lobsters and womens and Jews and niggers, and, and, and for all eternity.
What they don't realize is that their LARP came way too late, the capitalist-machine already realized it can profit off degeneracy, commodification of culture, destruction of values, etc. and thus will continue to do so. All they do is make themselves mentally ill and keep trannies, niggers and jews in their heads completely rent free, images of rampant degeneracy torturing them permanently while remaining unaware of the system that enables it to happen. This is why I find these pro-capitalist conservatives utterly hilarious, the christfag tradfag LARPers pitiful, and actual Nazis at least somewhat more worthy of respect, even if it's still fundamentally a sad LARP, an eternal cope of a lost future based on Aryan European culture and values.

>>17086887
Without religious doctrine, there are no moral facts, so there's no reason not to suppress "degeneracy" either.
>you don't have any reason to hold on to your childish hatred of other people
This is a religious doctrine derived from liberal Protestantism, though.

>>17084346
being a retarded fundamentalist or shill for capitalism isn't 'conservative' in the slightest. in sensibilities america is the most vapid, unformed place in the world and ripe for total social degeneration.

>>17086801
I know it sounds cliché, but I think it really boils down to the trend that the people who get angry about all that are generally uptight and miserable people, and cannot enjoy themselves in such ways. Because that form of enjoyment is inherently unproductive, they can't see any benefit to other people partaking in it, and I think it also just angers them to see others enjoying themselves when they themselves cannot.

>>17086901
100% this

>>17086824
That seems like a reasonable premise for a governing authority to adopt assuming the goal of the governing authority is the health and perpetuation of society.

>>17086733
If homosexuality statistically leads to the propagation of disease, increased likelihood of cancer, and so on, why shouldn't it be proscribed? Nobody sees anything wrong with condemning smoking, for example, because it leads to increased rates of cancer.

>>17086901
The Nazis are honorable men from a lost future
The capitalist Christian conservatives are just dumb

>>17084239
>your genetics are your purpose
>purpose is 'planting trees which you know you shall not stand in the shadows of'
>Race is God
>Race is a Species
>Your species and thus God is badly effected by degeneracy which hurts the chances of your genes passing on properly or keeping on passing
>just as Burke said we live under a contract between the dead, the living, and those yet to be born

>>17086989
also this Christcucks literally eliminated the second coming of christ so they could have jew jew cum

>>17086979
>If homosexuality statistically leads to the propagation of disease, increased likelihood of cancer, and so on, why shouldn't it be proscribed? Nobody sees anything wrong with condemning smoking, for example, because it leads to increased rates of cancer.

>>17087018
Why do you think it's dumb to condemn homosexuality? Can you give an answer that doesn't involve "human dignity", or "just be nice"?

>>17084318
>>17084412
>>17084450
>>17084516
>>17084604
>>17084744
>>17086666
>>17086801
>>17086831
>>17086834
>>17086887
>>17086901
>>17086927
>heckin yupperino, nothing matters my guy!

You tards don't realize this, but you're moralists, too. Imagine you live in a land with no laws or justice system, you're walking with your mother, and I walk up and shoot her in the head just to watch her brains go sploot. Upset? Why? I thought morals are arbitrary and truth is subjective. What if I enslave niggers? Is that 'morally' wrong? If yes, you're a moralist. Everybody is. We just have different limitations in our perception of casual relationships between behavior and consequence.

>>17087078
You're a complete and utter brainlet, a pathetic mass-replying turbonigger and your argument is so poor and evidently self-refuting that it's not even worthy of being quoted with a soijak or a brainletjak.

>>17084545
you and your Descartes tier argument are retarded.

>>17084239
It works, look at Nick Fuentes

>>17087103
They're arguing morals are arbitrary. It's dishonest because everyone has moral beliefs of some kind. How is that a poor argument?

>>17087059
Why do you think is right to condemn homosexuality? Are you a motherfucker idealist and moralist?

>>17086801
I think it is about being outcasted. In deep down, they also wanted fuck and do drugs too but because of various reasons they can't and they take their pain out of others.

>>17088254
This was me for a long time
At one point I realized if I had friends and went to parties I would too, the straight edge is just cope for being an incel

>>17088254
Here's a secret: You don't have to be cool to do drugs and fuck.

>>17084239
>arguing against the mentally ill
You push them on the ground and break their head with a stomp.

>>17087103
You never responded. I win by default.

I'm probably the smartest guy on /lit/. No one can respond to my arguments.

>>17088254
imagine being this hylic

>>17088338
Here is the thing, being ''cool'' is in the eyes of the perceiver. If one thinks that drugs&sex is cool then it's cool. However, I do not think that people wanted to do drugs and sex because they think it's cool but because they wanted to be part of the group. When they can't engage in these behaviors they themselves might feel outcasted even in actuality they are not. When they feel like they cannot part of a group they engage in more fundamentalist/ outer groups in order to sustain their self-esteem.

>>17086703
How do you square a belief in facism suppressing homosexuality with the fact that all facist movements past and present have been full of queers.

>>17086703
>>17086979
So... we should stop giving healthcare to homosexuals and drug users in order to have a healthy society? Should people have taken away their choice and rights in order for them to live in a better society? Isn't the point of the economy to use it's own profit to give better conditions to the population? How can harming society benefit society? Your position is simply oxymoronic.
Taking aside your utilitarian presupposition, you are implying that oppressing a sector of society benefits society, therefore your use of the word society only refers to a certain group or end that fits your own criteria and not the whole of society i.e. ''nuclear family'' and economic growth.

>>17084446
Imagin taking what happens on 4chan and thinking it represents the world as a whole.

>>17088403
Some people want to do durgs n fuck because they want to be perceived as being cool. Especially young people. But it turns out, drug dealers are the least discriminating people in the world. They'll sell you drugs even if you're literally retarded. You do not have to be a person that other people perceive as being cool in order to buy and use drugs. And if you have drugs it's not hard to find someone to fuck.

>>17084429
Because it's become a term the right don't want to associate with any more because it exposes them.
See: Lauren Southern's recent whining to Wikipedia to have her article edited to remove such terms despite video evidence of her identifying as such

>>17084239
Yes, the liberal one of "muh feefees"

>>17086801
How would you feel if you were autistic and all the girls you liked did drugs and hookup on tinder instead of sleeping with you or being your girlfriend?

>>17088443
citation needed

>>17084367
>Jordan Peterson
>secular
Most of his shit refers to Judeo-Christian doctrine and philosophy that he tries to deflect with "muh archetypes"

>>17088519
Or if you're trying to live in a stable society but it's breaking apart because people are willfully ignoring the most basic lessons of life.

>>17087142
But Nick Fuentes dates a cat boy

>>17088535
I don't think anyone accepts people who sleep around and do drugs after a certain age. No one thought Charlie Sheen was a role model.

>>17088028
Statistics indicate that a small minority of people are gay- this is an aberration
They indicate that a large number of people masterbate- this is a norm

You are considered a degenerate sex offender if you are visibly masterbating in public, and by all accounts masterbation is a normal behavior.
Homosexuals have a powerful lobby pushing to make their aberration a normalized behavior in public and the behaviors they engage in are obscene, especially when a large group of them gather. They are promiscuous and spread diseases and peddal drugs. These are all well researched topics and even homosexuals will generally admit they are promiscuous and have a high incidence of substance use and sexually transmitted diseases.

Why is masterbation rightfully barred from public but Homosexuality is celebrated and encouraged? I say be a homosexual all you want so long as it isn't visible in public. This at least reduces the general public's exposure to the abberant behavior without infringing on their rights.

>>17088617
Spread your bullshit moralism and puritanism elsewhere. This is /lit/ and not /pol/

>>17084239
the only reason why those are considered unethical is because it hurts reproduction of the genes or the society. not because theyre actually bad or cause suffering.

>>17088617
You're writing about homosexuals as if that is the only aspect that defines someone who's homosexual, when in fact it's only an abstract concept that refers to a single determination of sexual attraction, let alone all of the person. Hence, you presuppose an essentialist view that has sexuality as its object.
Secondly, by considering homosexuality itself as the main defining factor of homosexuals, material conditions and its effects are to be ignored, since the conceptualization of homosexuality within society, its own apprehension by the subject and the consequences it has on defining roles is something that is impossible by your standards. Therefore, the subject can only be considered through itself i.e. idealism.
Finally, your argument is an inductive one, thus, it is based on contingency rather than necessity, so there's no causal chain that links homosexuality with what you're accusing them off, instead, it is a correlation, that in my opinion it can only be defined if we look at material conditions, which is something you refuse to do. Even if we suppose your conclusion to be true, we should also accept that every case fits your criteria 100%, since you posit that cause of ''degeneracy'' is homosexuality, hence, there should be no exceptions, but there are exceptions, thus, your conclusion is false.

>>17084239
>Is there any ethical system which argues against degeneracy (homosexuality, casual sex, drug use, etc) from a secular standpoint?

Yes anon, it's called Darwinism. It's not an ethical system though, because ethics are not a real thing. And nobody invented it, it was discovered. And you don't get to pick what things are degenerate. The system does that itself. In fact, you should encourage people to do whatever they want, to increase the number of degenerate people dying. That way, you won't have to sit at your computer worrying so much anymore.

Same with capitalist economics but let's just keep it at Darwin for now. The thing you are looking for is just reality itself. No amount of arguing and writing will change reality, so you really can rest easy. Reality can take care of itself

>>17085863
it’s a good question to ask desu, a good place for inquiry

>>17084422
Indians demonstrate how >shit< is a spook.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHdYLQiFsyo
The problem with Stirner is that he seeks to free humanity from software. But that's not possible with mere disbelief - neither God, nor flat earth, nor money has disappeared with disbelief.
You need to learn the software and use it.

>>17089205
>It's not an ethical system though, because ethics are not a real thing.
Evolution is not a colorful system though, because colors are not a real thing.

>>17088479
Memes are magic and we're the meme makers mister.

>>17084239
>Convincing people through religious arguments no longer works.

Explain.

>>17084239
Can’t believe there are so many people on /lit/ who moan about Mann being a pederast or Sade being a “degenerate” and so on and so on. Notice how the most depraved corners of the internet are always the most thoroughly infected with moralists! You will, without doubt, find the strongest outbursts of offended moral feeling on /d/ and /y/ and /aco/ and all the other boards and threads catering to savage and delinquent tastes. The man in the pornographic state of mind, the most subjective and dictatorial state of mind, wants to impose his own preferences upon others, whether they be sensual or aesthetic or political—sexual arousal engenders a rapacious intellect. Shotacons and lolicons are particularly guilty of this. They delude themselves into thinking that because they worship rarefied, hyper-idealised, non-threatening simulacra of innocence and cuteness that they actually value those things more than other people and, what’s more, they develop such unrealistic standards that their attitude toward things that fail to meet the mark becomes patently genocidal. The weeaboo would blot out all 3D life if he could. Now this might sound based, and it might be if it occurred on any conscious level, as a deliberately chosen evil. But the fact is that the typical resident of 4chan is unconsciously conditioned by the board culture to engage in a 24-hour doublethink that allows him to indulge in amorality and hedonism and cruelty and yet also to (completely self-seriously, without the faintest trace of irony) in the very same moment stand on his soapbox and lecture others about their degeneracy; to wail about how fags or trannies or libtards or poltards—or whatever transitory stimulus happens to be causing him (self-inflicted) psychic pain at the moment—are THE one ill responsible for the coming collapse of civilisation. It is a kind of ethical schizophrenia. And it is extremely annoying and extremely tiring. A clone army of immoral moralfags. Who could’ve thought! This is the real nihilist, this is the miserable species of future man Nietzsche warned us about. In terms of unscrupulousness, the conscious egoist cannot hope to surpass the hypocrite!—Of course, you say, this is just human nature. Yes, indeed, but never has it been so potent, so highly concentrated... a maximum of degeneracy and a maximum of Puritanism in the very same creature, duplicated thousands of times, churned out in their digital hundreds. Quite the achievement!

>>17089859
Terrific effortpost. For many here the whole "anti-degenerate" scheme is something to pathetically cling to in lieu of personal success and contentment, and not a consistent philosophy. "I've failed... but at least I'm le epic straight white man"

>>17086801
>I dont understand why "degeneracy" is even a problem
Some people have things dear to them, and don't want them altered or ruined by neglect, nihilism or judaism (a literal baby torture cult).

>>17089859
>the most depraved corners of the internet
Based on what? You don't see the mainstream as the more corrupt one? The outsourced morality and perception as the worse one?

>>17089958
Bold of you to assume that 4chan isn't mainstream.

>>17084239
if your that obsessed with homosexuality then your most likely gay

>>17089859
it's just christian morality
self denial is the bread and butter of Christianity

There actually is a great recent innovation on this very topic, it’s known as HSI theory, or ‘Have sex, incel’.

>>17088556
no lol

>>17084346
America's only ethical motto is "I wanna do whateva the fuck I want anytime I want FEEEDDDHUMMM *blam blam* YEEEE-HAAAW"

>>17084239
fascism

>>17084239
>ethical system which argues against degeneracy (homosexuality, casual sex, drug use, etc) from a secular standpoint?
>homosex
It's unhealthy for you and prevents future generations(tax payers) from being born. Buttfucking is cause for medical issues and if you live in a country with your healthcare coming out of your taxes then homosex and marriage should be illegal, just like being fat. Just like smoking
>casual sex
Similar to above, more chance of STD but more chance of having a (shitty) future tax payer
>drug use
Unhealthy and again see above. Likely your sperm or eggs will get fucked up from hard drugs, if you don't do hard drugs now you have more potential of doing them than someone who doesn't do drugs at all. Forms addictions which usurps money from the addict and therefore less tax to go to healthcare.
>etc degeneracy
Boils down to health and ability to pay taxes. Non-degens are healthier by comparison and much better off financially. A clear mind is cheaper for the tax payer than a degenerate mind.

If you don't have tax-funded healthcare, you still need healthy people and healthy tax payers - future tax payers.

>>17086801
the fact that people like you aren't disgusted by half the shit that goes on now shows how far we've fallen

>>17088266
Have you been able to do that yet? If you have, how did you not realize that you were right the first time?

>>17089995
4chan has mainstream ways to post, and mainstream views - and those posing as such.
>Sneed
>cope, dilate ...
>tranny
>take your meds
These are all so tiresome.

>>17084239
Choosing not to partake is one thing. but if you aren't religious and you believe that these things are wrong you've been memed. Memes are your religion OP.

These activities are detrimental to the overall society. How is this argument not enough?

>>17089843
Our society is secularized to the point where people no longer trust in religious doctrine. Even so called "religious" people have their own theology or outright ignore the bible and basically don't actually believe in anything other than some vague "spiritualism".

>>17084346
t. non-American

>>17086926
Stay mad, eurofag. If America is so vapid how come your centuries old cultures can't stand up to it? The weak should fear the strong.

>>17091145
You need to prove that

>>17089859
absolutely based
>But the fact is that the typical resident of 4chan is unconsciously conditioned by the board culture to engage in a 24-hour doublethink that allows him to indulge in amorality and hedonism and cruelty and yet also to (completely self-seriously, without the faintest trace of irony) in the very same moment stand on his soapbox and lecture others about their degeneracy; to wail about how fags or trannies or libtards or poltards—or whatever transitory stimulus happens to be causing him (self-inflicted) psychic pain at the moment—are THE one ill responsible for the coming collapse of civilisation. It is a kind of ethical schizophrenia. And it is extremely annoying and extremely tiring.
beautifully put, this is one of the most annoying aspects of 4chan culture yet one of the most fascinating and admittedly somewhat entertaining if only because of its utter absurdity

The poltard cries about the Jews making him do a degeneracy while he cooms to trannies

>>17084239
Right winger here. There's no way to argue against degeneracy outside of religion.

>>17084366
I'm from the American midwest and I lived in Europe for a while, I have to say Europeans had a lot more hookup culture than my part of America.

>>17088474
>we should stop giving healthcare to homosexuals and drug users in order to have a healthy society
It's cynical, but that's science. Homosexuals and drug users provide little benefit to society if at all. They might pay some taxes, but they have no future with their seed.
>should people have taken away their choice and rights in order for them to live in a better society?
If you want a society to be strong and the best it can be, degenerates have to be eliminated from the gene pool. The "Atomic family" has been a family standard until recently, particularly taking a decline starting in the late 80s. The "atomic family" is the most productive form. Without productive people you do not have a productive society.
>point of the economy to use it's own profit to give better conditions to the population? How can harming society benefit society?
Harming people that are harming society is a benefit to everyone as a whole. The greater good, the needs of the many.

If you have a society of mixed cultures, drug abuse, casual sex, alcoholism, and heavy gambling it will eventually become the norm. Is this a slippery slope? Yes, but it's effects are seen even today. Homogeneity is the only way to have a future, and society always fades until it cycles back to that.

>>17091313
>The "Atomic family" has been a family standard until recently
The reverse is actually true. Until industrialization most people lived with their extended family

>>17089820
retard

>>17087078
You don't have to find something morally wrong to be upset about something, retard.

>>17087152
Ethics and morals are not even the same thing, everyone in this thread is a retarded brainlet.

>>17084239
Yes, it's called China.

>>17084422
based

>>17091505
I meant a book or corpus of works.

>>17091528
You are basically asking for some variety of Confucianism so do your research there. It is not a religion by the standards of Abrahamic monotheism.

>>17086801
Favoring degenerate behavior is a shift of priority

>>17084239
I'm surprised no one mentioned Epicureanism. It is not religious and it certainly supports a cleaner way of life in the grounds that it leads to better mental health.

But then, most Ancient Philosophy did oppose "degeneracy" and the arguments were not always theological

>>17086801
>I dont understand why "degeneracy" is even a problem, who fucking cares if people fuck or do drugs?

Promiscuity and recreational drug usage are behaviors that lead you away from virtue and peace of mind. If we have a society where more people believe that promiscuity and recreational drugs lead to a better life, more people will be harmed by this kind of ideology.

>>17086927
That's not really true. I'm content with my life and I don't want to be promiscuous or have any kind of other "degenerate behavior".
But I do think that acceptance of promiscuity and drugs lead to a worse society.

>>17084239
Honestly basic scientists and statistics shows very clearly that degeneracy is a bad thing. Unfortunately everyone wants woke points so they literally argue against the science or even doing the science to prevent the "unpopular reality" from coming out.

Sort of like how humans are the only creature on earth to use the word race instead of subspecies. And when I say subspecies, I include all of them including whites. Shit isn't racism it's fuckinf reality.

>>17091386
Did I completely BTFO the point you were making?

>>17091189
Vapidness has nothing to do with the power of a nation amerishart. "weak fears the strong" lmao America is afraid of a tiny strip of land in the Middle East.

>>17089002
cringe and yikes

National Socialism

>>17092543
>Honestly basic scientists and statistics shows very clearly that degeneracy is a bad thing
Post it

>>17092414
>Promiscuity and recreational drug usage are behaviors that lead you away from virtue and peace of mind
In what way?

>>17088504
The term changed a lot, especially after Charlotsville. Alt right was initially a broad term for all right wingers outside of the Republican Party. It was the right wing alternative to establishment politics. People who embraced economic nationalism, isolationism, and protectionism were basically alt right. After cville the term morphed into evil nazi, so a lot of dissident figures distanced themselves from the label.

>>17084239
Humans are literally destined to degeneracy. This is why "degeneracy" is even a thing. All ethics, all values, all morals, are all entirely a LARP. Humans naturally resist any morality unless it benefits them, for example religion (if you don't behave, eternal pain awaits you). However, even then we managed to realize there was no God, and we killed him.
As long as we inhabit the human body, we will steer into degeneracy every single time. Ironically, the only way to end degeneracy is transhumanism.

Confucianism after Mencius starts from the take that humans are naturally good.

Legalism (Xunzi is a proto-Legalist, Han Fei-zi founded it) starts from the take that humans are naturally bad.

Pick whichever one you agree with more and go from there.

>>17089859

Normies are worse

>>17089002

Moralism is often propagated through literature

>>17084239
Is there any ethical system which would justify the beliefs I came to through irrational reaction to people I don't like?

Do not pretend to be interested in philosophy when you are admitting you are looking for arguments to justify a belief instead of coming to the proper beliefs through argument

>>17084576
No, these only offer you the illusion of knowledge. When you take these drugs you fell emotional renewal and novelty, which is confused with gaining genuine knowledge. I’ve been through this process before and thought extensively about it. There are no shortcuts in this aspect of life.

Not in a coherent way. This why is deviants are almost always atheists.

>>17089859

Have you considered that anonymous places like 4chan are simply filled with concentrations of people reacting to the degeneracy of society?

There is no doublethink. There’s only the visceral reaction to the evil of the present day - to label people on this site as necessarily engaging in immoral behavior through consumption of weeabooism or whatever is fallacious.

>>17084576
personally I think that the direct access to the symbolic afforded by psychedelics is useful for 'growing up' and, though I'm not one of these pseudo-trad fags, made me more aware of the ways I was representing a degenerate breed of man

>>17093856
Some of you could use emotional renewal though

>>17093915
It's like saying that a guy who hangs out a brothel but doesn't actually fuck the whores isn't doing anything immoral. Sure, maybe he isn't. But he's steeped in an atmosphere of immorality, he has to absorb some of it.

>>17089859

This post is a fine specimen of the propaganda reproduced by intellectuals who believe themselves rational. He moves from inference to implied fact throughout the body of the post - “some 4channers engage in degeneracy” -> “4chan necessarily engages in degeneracy”

The post represents a category of imitative propaganda whose aim is to paralyze. Paralyze action, by labeling anyone who takes action - even if it’s as simple as rejecting the promethean impulses of a deeply sick society - as a hypocrite in some form. This sort of content is evil, because it keeps people from taking positive action, while they’re worrying on intellectual conundrums about whether or not they’re a hypocrite, a fraud, or a degenerate themselves, instead of trusting their intuition and instincts which tells them that our society is evil and insane, and ought to be cured.

>>17093943

No it isn’t. It isn’t saying anything like that, and you should feel foolish for being sucked in to such a vulgar analysis.

>>17092864
No you're too stupid to understand what I wrote and butthurt that God isn't real, LIKE USUAL

>>17093943

>everyone living under the Soviet Union must have absorbed communism internally - therefore all anti communist soviets are hypocrites

>>17093471
>In what way?
By indulging in promiscuity or drugs, you increase your desire for those things. This increase in desire for pleasure leads to anxiety and gets in the way of peace of mind. It also reduces your "freedom" in the way that they affect the choices you are capable of making (think of the guy who smokes cigarettes who want to quit but can't).

>>17094117
Everyone who posts on 4chan chooses to do so.

>>17094086
Why isn't it? Just asserting that it's "not like that" isn't an argument

>>17094132
>This increase in desire for pleasure leads to anxiety
How so? Do you have anything concrete to back that up?

>>17094152
>How so? Do you have anything concrete to back that up?

This has been known at least since Socrates. Desires are the source of anxiety.

>>17094152
Everyone who lived in the USSR chose to do so instead of escape, as well.

Furthermore, the comparison of 4chan to a brothel is false anyway, most “degenerate” content is contained in specific boards. It shouldn’t be a shock that an anonymous board is shared by people who have dissident fetishes AND dissident political or moral views. The actions of normies on a college football team likely exceed the degenerate actions of an average 4channer. The comparison is vulgar at best and insidious at worst.

>>17094289

Addendum - the “free choice” element of the argument that 4channers are hypocrites due to the (false) equivalence between extreme fetishists and moralists because they choose to post on the site, is reminiscent of the free choice argument behind free market ideology. You chose to work a job at a low wage, or chose to sign up for an expensive college loan - and by the fact that no one put a gun to your head, the contract is fair in its nature.

What you miss is the imperfect information inherent to the affair. Many people who post here have no knowledge and next to no interaction with extreme degenerate fetishists on their containment boards. The existence of free choice doesn’t imply complicity.

>>17084412
Because we live in a society.

>>17094462

Ummm, you’re posting on 4chan sweetie. Hypocrite much??? That means you endorse everything posted by even the tiniest minority on the site.

>>17094096
You claimed that ethics isn't 'real'. It's just as real as colors, however. We can see ethics in many forms across the Universe. Or Creation. Just as we can see color.

>>17084239
The concept of homosexuality, casual sex, and drug use being degenerate is dumb. You realized religion is not a convincing standpoint as it has no grounding, so you’re trying to confirm what you already believe to be true. How about considering it from a point of view in which it is neutral until you can logically reason it to be either good or bad.

>>17084576

Don’t grow up. Growing up means becoming adjusted to a sick society, and consciously seeing nothing wrong with what you unconsciously know is evil.

>>17094690
How do you unconsciously know it’s evil? Does it just feel wrong or gross to you? Vomit is gross, but I don’t consider it a moral evil. Try extending your reasoning beyond what feels wrong to you.

>>17084576
It depends, some drugs, especially psychedelics, have the ability to cause profound realizations in the user. Others can act as a destresser, have medical benefits, or act as escapism. There’s nothing inherently right or wrong about drugs so it’s not a matter of growing up.

>>17094747

Why have so many societies independently of one another come to the belief that women in power, public scat, and rampant dismemberment and or savagery are moral evils?

I think the evolutionarily developed disgust sensitivity is substantially more trustworthy than the conclusions of rationalists like Adorno or Reich, what with the 40% reproduction rate of psychological studies and so forth.

>>17094816
Just because something came from evolution, does not mean it’s an infallible basis to morality.

You also were listing examples of disgust and put “women in power”. Does the concept of women in power disgust you?

But disgust sensitivity is still dumb to base morals off of, it was created without civilized society being in place and was originally meant for protecting us from disease and poison and whatnot. Many of the things that disgust us also don’t come from this evolutionarily ingrained idea, but rather from societal reinforcement.

>>17094660
>casual sex, and drug use being degenerate is dumb.
It is not.
They do lead to a worse society.

>>17094999
How? What is the measure of how a society is worse? Even if you found some subjective way to measure a society becoming worse, how can you prove those “degenerate” activities to have caused this? Or is it just correlative? Well, I can also say that correlating with the social acceptance of these “degenerate” activities, quality of life has generally improved, technology has become better, and people generally are more free.

>>17095021
Promiscuity and drug usage certainly don't make people more free, since they tend to make people slaves of their urges or of the drug they use. They lead to unhappier lives and to people who are less capable of keeping a family.

But then, in the end, promiscuity and drug usage are parts of a bigger problem which is hedonism.

>>17095104
What I was trying to point out is that you can’t actually prove a causal relationship with those activities and the supposed degeneration of society, the most you could do is correlate the rise in those activities with your definition of degeneration so I was showing how that I could do the same thing with my proposed prosperity of society. Those things don’t make people more free, but they also don’t make society degenerate, they are neither good nor evil, they just are.

In the same way “illicit” drugs could ruin a family, they could prevent a mental health breakdown, lead someone to a profound revelation, or help ones health.

I don’t think hedonism is good, but at the same time there’s nothing inherently wrong with it.

>>17094951

Indeed, women should generally not be in political power. This has been understood since before Plato. Furthermore, I strongly disagree that disgust is a poor foundation for morality, the natural response to particular behaviors is a decent metric for what ought to be investigated as a corrupting influence. No thanks to the Adorno-tier social engineering of our present day.

>>17095151
The problem is that you are not thinking of "what is the good" and "what is moral".
A decline in morality is not neutral. It is evil. It leads people away from the good, leading to them living unhappier lives and becoming worse citizens who can't even maintain a family.

>what no pussy does to a MF: the thread
can we give these LARPing faggots the state enforced waifus they want already so they finally stfu jesus

>>17095174
How do you quantify a decline in morality? The “natural” response is shaped as much, if not more by our cultural institutions rather than our biological responses. A baby would recognize that shit and poison is disgusting, but wouldn’t have a natural response to friends with benefits, gay people, or drug users. This is because their response is actually natural, compared to that of someone who has been shaped by the society that surrounds them. This is the problem with your line of reasoning, not even going to the fact that you seem to be begging the question with that whole line of reasoning behind why it should even be considered a decent basis for morality.

>>17095169
Also, thinking women should not be in political power because...Plato said it. Plato was a good philosopher, but not infallible, and his opinion was shaped by the society around him, not a natural disgust to women participating in the governance of a city-state.

>>17089859
Incredibly based, well done

>>17084346
>>17084366
Popular culture in America is degenerate (i.e. spread of Tinder and hookup culture). However >>17091287 is right.

In practice, fewer young Americans than ever are actually having sex, see The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/12/the-sex-recession/573949/

>>17095234
Are you an Economics student? Not everything that matters can be quantified.
And I don't really understand your point about "natural reactions". The point of morality is to take the "shitty uncivilized and uneducated you" and turn it into a "better you". To help you acquire (or discover inside you) the knowledge of the good so that you can live a better life.

You should read less Economics/Pop-Science and start with the Greeks.

>>17095273
Lmao, economics and pop-science. I’ve read Greek philosophy, but they’re not infallible bastions of wisdom, they have faults. I don’t actually want it to be quantified, because I think it’s impossible to quantify, which is the point I’m trying to prove. There is no way that you can actually quantify moral decline. My point with the natural reactions is that it’s a shitty way to attempt to quantify morality in addition to the fact that many of the things ascribed to a natural reaction, is not an actual natural reaction. Disgust from homosexuality is not a natural reaction, it is a culturally conceived reaction, and thus to actually determine if it is wrong, we should instead attempt to reason whether it is wrong, which there is no logical reason for it to be wrong.

I agree morals are supposed to make us better people (though not that they take us from being civilized to uncivilized), but to determine how we can find the knowledge of good and become better, we need to reason what is good, not have it come from some figure of authority or an arbitrary notion of what feels wrong.

>>17095339
>I’ve read Greek philosophy
Anon, you clearly have not. Otherwise you wouldn't make those posts >>17095021 >>17095151

I'm not saying it as a way to shame you. Unfortunately, very few people read Greek Philosophy and the normal is to not have any clue about it other than a simplified version of the allegory of the cave. But when you read it (and I hope you read it), you will understand the problem with what people call "degeneracy".

I recommend you to start with a (modern) book by Pierre Hadot and then to go to Plato (don't start with the Republic, leave it for last). Then, you read the Stoics, Epicurus (very short very easy to read), Aristotle and Plotinus. They all have their differences, but you will learn a lot reading them.

>>17095385
Having read Greek philosophy does not mean I accept all notions brought forth by it. I’ve read Plato, the Stoics, and Aristotle, but I don’t agree with everything they’ve said. This is an appeal to authority. Just because the Gods may decree something to be pious, doesn’t necessarily make it pious because they declared it to be.

>>17095449
It is not even about agreeing or not with them. It is that given your answers to my posts, their thoughts are completely alien to you.

>>17084576
For my psychodelics are more like, "Jesus fuck, I really can experience things in a completely different way for a while". Imagine the same chill you feel after you play with those patterns that cause optical distorsion, but multiply that for a thousand. At the end, you were just massively rattled by chemistry, but it was important to know that things can be really different, not better nor worse, but just different.

>>17095464
I already know what I’ve read, so you can choose not to believe it, I don’t really give a shit. I just want you to consider that what you consider to be degenerate is a byproduct of the societal reinforcement you’ve received throughout your life. Which is why you should try and examine it through the lens of reason, not your knee jerk reactions, and maybe you’ll realize how the moral decline you claim to see in the society around you, has no actual basis.

>>17084422
>Stirner
gross

>>17089859
Very well put. I myself would have just pointed out how the nazis on this site spend their time jacking off to young men in stockings and then complaining about BBC threads.

>>17095539
>I already know what I’ve read, so you can choose not to believe it, I don’t really give a shit.
You clearly didn't. Everything you wrote after this line shows that.
Your arguments make no sense as an answer to someone who is arguing from the point of Classical Philosophy.

>>17095576
“How will you look for [virtue], Socrates, when you do not know at all what it is? How will you aim to search for something you do not know at all? If you should meet with it, how will you know that this is the thing that you did not know?”

>>17095594
“How will you look for [virtue], Socrates, when you do not know at all what it is? How will you aim to search for something you do not know at all? If you should meet with it, how will you know that this is the thing that you did not know?”

>>17084422

>>17091412
Yeah you do, otherwise you're just sperging out and being a faggot. "Slavery must be abolished because it is a grave sin and an affront to God" is a much stronger argument than "slavery must be abolished because it makes me personally feel bad."

>>17084347
Basically this is the only real way to tackle it when talking to someone and not shitposting online. It’s more about chasing dumb hedonistic shit in general than the level of degeneracy you ascribe to a particular desire.

It’s also a sliding scale and you sound like a loser for completely writing off casual sex, drug use, or homosexuality if that’s your inclination - it’s about prioritizing these or taking them too far to the point where they impact chasing obviously more fulfilling goals

>>17093811
>>17094660
Why is it wrong to search the expansive tapestry of human knowledge to find articulate answers to things you find to be empirically true? Is he supposed to read every argument against those things first just to so you don't get triggered? Also YWNBAW.

>>17098558
He's supposed to come to his beliefs by actually thinking about them instead of asking faggots online to give him talking points so he doesn't have to

>>17094078
this and the previous (you) to that post are the only correct ones, most evident by the reddit tier positive responses that post got.

>>17099960
Jokes on you because both of those posts have plebbit spacing, kek.

>>17087078
>and I walk up and shoot her in the head just to watch her brains go sploot. Upset? Why?
Because she cleans my room and makes my chickie tendies. This is a massive attack on my quality of life and unless I kill you where you stand then everyone will know I'm an easy target.
>What if I enslave niggers? Is that 'morally' wrong?
Nope.

>>17088504
Or maybe because it's just a nebulous term for someone-I-dislike, much like how Nazi, Fascist, etc. are used.

>>17084347
How does gay marriage not make a gay man more happy than lifelong lonelyness?

>>17094132
For this kind of threads is why I hate postmodernists so much, reducting serious issues into dichotomies and idealisms is what children do, the lack of critical thinking of some anons is astounding.

>>17100360
seething about reddit spacing is the ultimate newfag give away.
You dont belong here faggot (or worse: bleeder) and I will daily remind degenerates like you of your degeneracy on this beautiful literature board on 4channel.

>>17100484
by learning that it is spelled “loneliness” you faggot, and realizing that all faggots die of aids before reaching old age anyway and therefore we should just expedite this succumbing by beating them to death when we come across them.

>>17100537
Seethe and cope harder plebbit sympathiser and maybe you should join them too.

17084450
Nobody tell him about France

>>17084239
You don't need a philosophic system, simple medical facts will do.
>homosexuality
Too much buttsex increases the odds of various diseases, not only stds but also cancer.
>casual sex
STDs,
>drug use
Addiction is unpleasant

>>17084516
PnV & Butt AIDS are good arguments. Discounting them doesn't refute them

>>17084744
You are like the people who like deformed cats and dogs because they are "cute".

The rest of the world recoils at an obvious defect. That's how normal people feel about trans and people with body modifications. It's a reflexive cringe. Not a good feeling. You feel it's your privilege to just go around making people recoil internally but expect them not to be annoyed.

>>17086733
If they are paying out of pocket, sure. But we all know that Globohomo insists that HIV testing be subsidized so that normal people pay for the care that HIV vectors demand to be provided lest they wantonly spread their personal problems as far and wide as possible

>>17089172
That's a lot of thought applied to refuting me. I appreciate the effort. The issue is that my assertion is that homosexuality should be barred from public view the same way masterbation is. I am not making Homosexuality an essential feature of a person. I suggest rather that it is a meaningless feature and thus barring people from displaying their Homosexuality in public robs them of nothing. My observations about homosexual behavior are not in any way refuted either, so you've basically agreed that they act this way.

>>17090176
Or, it used to be okay to tease fags in a way that encouraged them to not be such faggots. They were getting the same treatment all boys get. Now fags and trannies are the wheelchair kid who you can't bean with a dodgeball so our natural inclination is to try to find the best way to throw a dodgeball as hard as possible right into their smug stupid face.

>>17100941
>I’ll think about faggots all day
>I’m not gay
It’s not funny anymore

>>17094206
Oh nice an appeal to authority with nothing else to substantiate it

>>17094289
>>17094353
> reminiscent of the free choice argument behind free market ideology
If you don't post on 4chan, you'll end up homeless and starving. Also there is a ton of cross-pollination between the boards. Naturally /lit/ isn't /d/ but porn gets posted here frequently, there is tons of hate for whatever group you can imagine (in b4 "that's a good thing"), and the atmosphere is generally one of hostility and negativity. You are tying yourself in knots trying to deny the obvious, which is that no upstanding moral person would spend any amount of time on this miserable shithole website.

is AIDS a good example of "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" in action

>>17084239
Categorical imperative?

>>17099707
>agendaposters just straight up admitting they're anti-reading

>>17084471
Found the 14 year old faggot

>>17088266
Then you were always a mong

>>17102006
if you think the purpose of reading is to justify things you already believe, you are retarded. you can come to beliefs by reading the ideas of others, but if you deliberately only seek out justifications for what you already believe, you are not interested in knowledge

>>17102481
so you're going with
>supposed to read every argument against those things first just to so I don't get triggered
somehow I doubt you practice what you preach and wouldn't be posting this shit if someone asked for literature on stances you agree with

>>17086801
If you know you're such a massive retard, why ask a retarded question?

>>17102592
clearly OP cannot justify his own position. It isn't that he has to read all possible arguments, but he is incapable of justifying something that he nonetheless has to cling to as an article of faith

Threads like this show how far gone the US really is. It's laughable. The next 20 years are going to be spicy

>>17102758
In some ways, quite sadly really, I look forward to global Chinese hegemony. At least we will be rid of this senile, homosexual global exportation

>>17084239
>secular ethics

no, if you can't convince people to see the truth, you won't win by dragging yourself down to their level.

well, you got a great point here, there has been need for conservative writers to explain the rationality of conserving thing ever since the ww2 and the liberal triumph that followed.
I would do it, but I'm far too prone for procrastination

>>17084239
Lol wrong

>>17090176
>tfw those jews who are obsessed with nazis and the holocaust are most likely just nazis who want to gas the jews