/lit/ - Literature

>western values
Tired of this christnigger dog-whistle. Race is all that matters. Tyrone doesn’t give a fuck about Western values

What even are "western values"? Seems they've changed a lot over the years
Inb4 muh greeks

>>17195821
Rome

>>17195821
The opposite of this.

>>17195748
stfu reactionary doofus

>>17195981
What were the core values of Rome that became "Western values" then?
>>17195986
The East is farther away from this shit than we are though. This is a uniquely "Western" phenomenon.

>>17195986

>>17196002
You're off your rocker if you think a cartoon like that in the Middle East would yield better results.

>>17196003

>>17196005
By "East" I was referring to the civilizations centered around China, not to the Middle East.

>>17195748
My friend, I think you at least a little bit confused. What you see before you is the apotheosis of the last five centuries of the development of Western civilization. If anything, you are the one hostile to Western civilization.
Unless, of course, you are speaking of the period of pure Papal and monarchical sovereignty that predated the Protestant Reformation and the Enlightenment. If that's what you're talking about, then perhaps you're right. But you're five hundred years late to the game.

>>17196022
You do realize there are militant jihadists fighting in Indonesia and the Philippines?

>>17196003
>>17196012
This looks quite Western to me. What do you imagine that the average Roman or English Catholic would have thought of their children being taught that it is okay for men to not only lie with men, but to marry them? Do you imagine that such a thing would have gone over well? Perform the same thought experiment for the average American of sixty years ago.

>>17196040
Did women then wear face veils? They wore miniskirts and listened to rock and roll songs about sex

>>17196030
I could have mistaken the point of the original picture, I thought it was some /pol/ point about how we let foreigners into our cities who then protest our system. What was the point of the first post I replied to?

>>17196052
I don't think you have any idea what the America of that time was like. Consider the fact that Nixon was elected for two terms and Reagan won 49 states in a landslide and update your view of the average American of that time.
And yes, for much of Western history it has been quite normal for married women to cover their hair, and for all women to cover their hair when entering a church. There are still women today who cover their hair, though you won't find them in major metropolitan areas like San Francisco.

>>17196063
You were saying this fervour is unique to the west which is crazy, it's unique to Islam

>>17196070
What I meant was that this phenomenon where we have foreigners running around protesting our system or way of life is unique to us, you don't see this shit happening in China or Japan, countries which don't even tolerate foreigners or in the case of the Uyghurs, don't tolerate foreigners who won't assimilate.

>>17196080
The Uyghurs aren't foreigners you ding dongz they're indigenous and fairly moderate in their practice. Where they were militant it was almost always out of nationalist reasons until lately because transnationalist jihadists have become their only friends so now many are joining ISIS

>>17196080
Look more closely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_Japan#Korean_organizations_in_Japan_%E2%80%93_Chongryon_and_Mindan
Japan suffers from similar problems. They just don't take the same form.

>>17196102
They're indigenous but "foreigners" to the Eastern system in the same way that Native Americans are to Westerners. You're right that I used the word "foreigners" wrong though, I should have switched to "outsiders" or some such. I knew where they were from though.
To make a firm point I would put forward that this tolerant bullshit that leads to scenes like in that pic comes out of the Western tradition itself, and you can trace its spirit allllll the way back to the first Western civilizations in the Middle East. The same "values" were never part of the Eastern tradition so they don't give inherently give a fuck about your right to whine about the system and will just force conformity.

>>17196107
>that link
Kek, chongryun are NOTHING like militant islamists and only the chuddest of chuds in japan would even begin to compare the two. In fact, chongryun has been used as a scapegoat by japanese politicians multiple times to run shoulders with extremists. Remember, japan is the only east asian country to have official boom genres for anti-korean and anti-chinese books

>>17196118
Uh china is literally the shithole of east asia. I would not use them to discuss tolerance in non western places.

>>17196107
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_Japan#Korean_organizations_in_Japan_%E2%80%93_Chongryon_and_Mindan
I'm sure its not literally zero, but its night and day compared to what the West deals with and has dealt with. Whenever places like Japan put up with similar shit its usually to please their Western overlords anyway, if Imperial Japan was never defeated they would never put up with shit like this, and if world power ever goes to the East these problems would be much less because they don't hold individual expression to be a value.

>>17196132
They're currently the power center of Eastern civilization so not sure what you even mean.

>>17196118
The Eastern system here is the Cultural Revolution of Mao which in fact is not really "Eastern", it comes from Marxism. Saying forcing confirmity itself is eastern shows a gross ignorance of European regimes of the two hundred years

>>17196136
>they dont hold individual expression to be a value
Nigga what century you from? Go to south korea, hong kong, taiwan. All vibrant places where people express themselves freely.

>>17196143
This is like thinking the united states is the entirety of the west

>>17196152
There's always going to be interplay where the East/West borrow ideas from each other. That doesn't therefore mean the East ceases to exist when it starts taking cues from a Western philosopher anymore than it means that Europe ceased to exist just because their most worshipped figure for practically their entire civilized history has been a first century Jew.
>Saying forcing confirmity itself is eastern shows a gross ignorance of European regimes of the two hundred years
Again, its not black or white. Did I say that forcing conformity was exclusively Eastern? No. What I'm saying is that the Eastern tradition doesn't value individual expression nearly as much as the West does. I'm sure they value it to some small degree, because nothing ever comes in ones and zeros, but they value conformity much more.
>>17196156
South Korea takes cues from the West, Hong Kong isn't even a part of China. Those are examples of Western influence on Eastern civilization, not the core Eastern tradition. Currently the core of Eastern civilization is situated pretty firmly on urban China just like the Western core is situated on America.

>>17196164
...how? The U.S. is definitely the power center of the West and China is the power center of the East.
See pic
>>17196022
Power center =/= entirety, it means the "core" or central point of the network of civilizations that carry its tradition.

>>17196196
Why must you reduce the east to post mao china? Currently the bulk of east asia is actually opposing china culturally, so you may be correct in saying that the current military and economic power in east asia primarily rest with china, but i would definitely disagree when it comes to cultural power or soft power. I just think you could probably be more precise in your wording because the sentiments in east asia are complicated. It almost comes off as ignorance.

>>17196288
>so you may be correct in saying that the current military and economic power in east asia primarily rest with china
I mean that's all I'm saying, so you basically agreed with me here and the rest of your post is just strawmanning other shit which I did not say.
>I just think you could probably be more precise in your wording because the sentiments in east asia are complicated. It almost comes off as ignorance.
I could probably be a bit more precise but you could also stop putting words in my mouth, you've done it in your past two posts.

>>17195748
Western civilization is rotten. It's time for it to go. If that means whit*oids as well, so be it.

>>17196136
You are completely delusional. Take it from someone who is fluent in Japanese - Japan is in many ways worse than "the West." In all other respects it is rapidly converging with the course of development taken by the United States.

>>17195748
I wish Western civilisation were as coldly rational as this makes it out to be. Unfortunately, we have plenty of sacred cows to slaughter, and none of them is born from an excess of reason.

>>17195791
Based. Western PEOPLE are what matter. And by Western "values" they mean like John Locke to Adam Smith. Garnish with CS Lewis and the Rebbe

>>17195748
The Muslims in this context sound based beyond all belief. Fuck industrial capitalism, fuck economic progress.

>>17195748
Western civilization ended with the Protestant reformation

>>17196127
They are even worse than militant Islamists in the sense that their activities are actually useful. They don't have to run around killing random people, because they have ideological power of the sort that "militant Islamists" in the West can only dream of.

>>17196532
>chongryun is worse than militant islam
Oh please, chongryun is basically a group of north korean descents living in japan. Communism hasn’t been relevant in japan in forever and north korean flavored communism is especially irrelevant around the world. Chongryun is only relevant because chuds in japan basically view koreans as this menacing virus that infiltrate all areas of the society. It’s their version of >the jews did this.

>>17196530
I genuinely think Western civilization ended with WWII.

>>17195748
Western elite controls most of the world and their proxies manufacture most of the culture. This so called antagonism to Western civilization, the result of which is Western elite domination (thru its principal war culture, the American) is just a lower level distraction to have you, the plebe, have something to fret over and get worked up about, without putting into question the oligarchic, warmongering elites, and instead focus on university progressives who zero influence on financialized capitalism or Imperial war policy.

>>17195748
Western elite controls most of the world and their proxies manufacture most of the culture. This so called antagonism to Western civilization, the result of which is Western elite domination (thru its principal war culture, the American) is just a lower level distraction to have you, the plebe, have something to fret over and get worked up about, without putting into question the oligarchic, warmongering elites, and instead focus on university progressives who have zero influence on financialized capitalism or imperial war policy.

>>17196738
>Oh please, chongryun is basically a group of north korean descents living in japan.
That's not true. The vast majority of Zainichi Koreans supported North Korea until a few decades ago. I've met Koreans in their twenties who went to pro-North Korean schools.
>Communism hasn’t been relevant in japan in forever
The Japan Communist Party consistently wins 10% of the total vote. The entire founding generation of postwar Japanese intellectuals (Tsurumi Shunsuke, Takeuchi Yoshimi, Maruyama Masao, Ienaga Saburo, Inoue Kiyoshi, Toyama Shigeki, etc) was either openly Marxist or heavily influenced by Marx. Marxist economics (e.g. Uno Kozo, Ito Makoto) was the dominant form of economics at all major universities until recently. The Marxists are only rivalled in influence by the equivalents of Howard Zinn, e.g. Yasumaru Yoshio, who started their work in the 1970s and 80s. Japanese intellectuals are more thoroughly Marxist and pacifist than you could possibly imagine.
>Chongryun is only relevant because chuds in japan basically view koreans as this menacing virus that infiltrate all areas of the society. It’s their version of >the jews did this.
That's not true. I suggest you actually read something on the topic instead of spouting convenient falsehoods.

>>17196814
10% of the national vote*

>>17195748
I honestly see nothing wrong with a cold and rational society that is "merely efficient". The very use of the adverb "merely" in that context gives you an idea of the hubris of the people who uphold such opinions. They accuse the West of being "arrogant" and "irreverent" (what exactly should we revere? Their sand gods?) but the real arrogance stems from people who think they know what are the "all-important" things in life. Envious of Western scientific success, they go on to discredit science wholesale and uphold their "spiritual" values in order to feel better about themselves, much like the kid who fails at math in school will tell himself that math is useless anyway so he has no reason to feel bad about failing. Though of course the reality of it is that the Western scientific paradigm has spread anywhere and has become the most reliable source of knowledge, as even those who decry "scientism" still rely on it in their everyday life. The whole world has become inherently westernized, as scientists in China, Japan, and everywhere else will follow the same scientific paradigms used in America and Europe.

>>17196749
>I genuinely think Western civilization ended with WWII.
More like WW1.

>>17196481
This nigga had a stroke

>>17195748
>>17195759
>>17195986
>>17196003
>>17196012
B-Based Islam???

>>17195748
That critique is 100% right. If you think there's any resemblance between homeric epics, crusaders or anything cool in European history and the soul crushing way that modern society wants you to coom and consoom, you're braindead. I'm no fan of islam, but are you really on board with the modern culture industry of advanced society?

>>17197225
What's the alternative?

>>17195748

>>17198329

>>17196814
Look bro are you japanese? You seem to be seething a lot and you surely wrote a lot but you didnt actually refute anything i said.

>zainichi koreans supported north korea until a few decades ago
Please explain how this makes them dangerous

>koreans in their twenties who went to pro-north korean schools
Again, please explain how this makes them dangerous. Perhaps you mean to say simply being communist is enough to say theyre cancerous and dangerous?

>The japan communist party wins votes
Bro the fucking green party in america consistently wins votes. Doesnt make them politically relevant. Japan is basically a one party state.

>i suggest you read something instead of spouting falsehoods
And i suggest you take your meds. Blaming koreans for all problems in japan is mental illness. It literally follows the same >the jews logic. Youre literally spreading the japanese equivalent to redneck confederate chud conspiracy.