/lit/ - Literature

>>17321242
Duh, he influenced pretty much every pomo

>>17321267
Influence doesn't necessitate mutual agreement. Practically the entirety of the feminist and democratic angle in postmodernist literature is at direct odds with Nietzsche.

>>17321286
Doesn't matter, his perspectivism ultimately gave birth to and enables pomo

>>17321313
And that makes him a postmodernist? Even when his philosophy also ultimately gave birth to and enabled other ideologies, like national socialism, fascism, and corporate capitalism for example?

>>17321327
>gave birth to
>national socialism, fascism, and corporate capitalism

>>17321327
based retard

>>17321242
He's post-postmodernist. He lived during the rise of modernism and nihilism (see his infamous "God is dead" bit) and envisioned a futurist humanity that can self-valuate. Instead we doubled down on nihilism, creating a world so bereft of human-centric virtue that brands are religious figures and consumption is holy practice

>>17321766
>gave birth to postmodernism but not these other ideologies whose creators were all heavily influenced by Nietzsche

>>17321286
>women stronger than men
>>wha'eva I do wha I wan
Sounds just like neetch, apart from the sex.

>>17322026
>The thoroughly vicious people, the "beautiful souls," the false from top to toe, do not know in the least what to do with my books—consequently, with the beautiful consistency of all beautiful souls, they regard my work as beneath them. The cattle among my acquaintances, the mere Germans, leave me to understand, if you please, that they are not always of my opinion, though here and there they agree with me.... I have heard this said even about Zarathustra. "Feminism," whether in mankind or in man, is likewise a barrier to my writings; with it, no one could ever enter into this labyrinth of fearless knowledge.

>Wherever the industrial spirit has triumphed over the military and aristocratic spirit, woman strives for the economic and legal independence of a clerk: "woman as clerkess" is inscribed on the portal of the modern society which is in course of formation. While she thus appropriates new rights, aspires to be "master," and inscribes "progress" of woman on her flags and banners, the very opposite realises itself with terrible obviousness: WOMAN RETROGRADES. Since the French Revolution the influence of woman in Europe has DECLINED in proportion as she has increased her rights and claims; and the "emancipation of woman," insofar as it is desired and demanded by women themselves (and not only by masculine shallow-pates), thus proves to be a remarkable symptom of the increased weakening and deadening of the most womanly instincts. There is STUPIDITY in this movement, an almost masculine stupidity, of which a well-reared woman--who is always a sensible woman--might be heartily ashamed.

>Women all like me.... But that's an old story: save, of course, the abortions among them, the emancipated ones, those who lack the where-withal to have children. [...] Have you heard my reply to the question how a woman can be cured, "saved" in fact?—Give her a child! A woman needs children, man is always only a means, thus spake Zarathustra. "The emancipation of women,"—this is the instinctive hatred of physiologically botched—that is to say, barren—women for those of their sisters who are well constituted: the fight against "man" is always only a means, a pretext, a piece of strategy. By trying to rise to "Woman per se," to "Higher Woman," to the "Ideal Woman," all they wish to do is to lower the general level of women's rank: and there are no more certain means to this end than university education, trousers, and the rights of voting cattle. Truth to tell, the emancipated are the anarchists in the "eternally feminine" world, the physiological mishaps, the most deep-rooted instinct of whom is revenge.

Still sound like Nietzsche to you?

>>17322091
>anti-German
One of main traits of globohomo
>NO YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND
Appeal to pseudery
>women bad
>still searching for overwoman
Radfem
>WIMMIN CAN FIGHT
>the future is female
Even sex neg fems have more sex than neetch
>NO WOMEN CAN'T BE STRONG
Ressentiment of sister who carried him through life
>incel logic
>can't read women but says truth is a woman
Go on?

>>17322163
>Women all like me
Kek this can't be real.

>>17322163
>wrong about every single thing
Seething feminist or just a retard?

>>17322163
Holy kek btfo

>>17321242
Can anyone elaborate on Nietzsche's views on marriage and institutions? It's weird to see him praise conservative tradition rather uncritically.

It's the exact same schizo shitting up this board screeching every day about Nietzsche being a post-modernist, madman

>>17322364
Read On Child and Marriage in TSZ

>>17322384
>It's the exact same schizo shitting up this board screeching every day about Nietzsche being 4deep2u

>>17322364
He said birth, death, and marriage are the three worst banalities.

>>17321286
>Practically the entirety of the feminist and democratic angle in postmodernist literature is at direct odds with Nietzsche

No? He called to overthrow established values, he obviously envisioned an aristocratic reaction but a lumpenproletarian reaction will do just as well

>>17322391
It's been some time.
>>17322426
How can one reconcile this with the OP's quoted passage? I just find it hard to take all of what he says in his critique of modernism at face value as it is odds with the mental picture I have of Nietzsche.

>>17322465
>He called to overthrow established values
Not all of them. The OP passage alone makes that clear.

>a lumpenproletarian reaction will do just as well
Last man ideology will not "do just as well."

>>17322465
He didn't call to replace them with this

>>17322519
It's replacing your own values and women are strongest.

>>17322545
He says in the above quote that feminists are downgraded, barren women. Learn to read.

>>17322547
Those were unterfems, not 4th wave feminists. You think his sister was bad? Imagine the eternal return in neetch's eyes first time seeing a NICE GUYS CANT FUCK SHIRT.

>>17322607
>4th wave feminists
His criticism applies to them even more. There isn't a more severe downgrade among women than being an ugly dyke or a pink-haired hambeast, both barren and "free" to do nothing besides work in a cubicle slowly eating themselves to death. Emancipation of women is a joke and they're the evidence.

>>17322797
You fell for the trick. The blue-haired dykes are only the unterfems. Meanwhile NICE GUYS CANT FUCK Stacy is harvesting the genes of Chad Six Races and creating the ubermensch in biological reality instead of anime larp.

>>17322997
Retarded mutts are being born because of the collapse of marriage brought upon by democracy. What's your point?

>>17322466
>>17322426
Anyone know the full passage?

>>17321242
Carlyle already said this over 30 years earlier.

https://thevictoriansage.wordpress.com/2012/07/08/on-looking-into-nietzsches-twilight-of-the-idols/

"Marriages made for love (the so-called lovematches) have error as a father and penury (need) as a mother."

"Every association that does not raise us up pulls us downward, and vice versa; therefore men usually sink a little when they take wives, whereas women are slightly elevated. Men who are too spiritual in nature require marriage just as much as they resist it like an unpleasant medicine."

A marriage in which each person wants to attain an individual goal through the other person will last; for example, if the wife wants to become famous through her husband and the husband wants to become popular through his wife."

"A marriage proves its excellence by being able to put up with an occasional "exception.""

"In entering into a marriage we should put the question to ourselves: do you believe that you will enjoy conversing with this woman all the way into old age? Everything else in marriage is transitory, but most of the time together is spent in conversation."

"If we could ever get ourselves to think beyond the claims of custom, we might well consider whether nature and reason do not direct a man toward multiple marriages in succession, perhaps taking the form of an initial marriage at the age of twenty-two years to a girl somewhat older than him, one who is spiritually and morally superior to him and who can be his guide through the dangers of his twenties (ambition, hatred, self-contempt, passions of all kinds). Her love would later become wholly maternal and she would not only tolerate it, but would promote it in the most salutary way if in his thirties the man were to form a relationship with a very young girl whose education he would himself take in hand. -Marriage is an institution that is essential for those in their twenties, useful but not essential for those in their thirties: for later life, it is often harmful and promotes regression in a man's spiritual cultivation."

"Those noble, free-minded women who take as their task the education and elevation of the female sex should not overlook one consideration: marriage conceived in its higher form, as a friendship of the soul between two human beings of different sex, that is, as we can hope it will be in the future, entered into for the purpose of engendering and educating a new generation - such a marriage, using sensuality as if it were only a rare, occasional means toward a greater end, will probably require us to provide some natural assistance from concubinage; for if, for reasons of the man's health, the wife is also supposed to serve as the sole source of satisfaction for his sexual needs, then an erroneous consideration, opposed to the aims just indicated, will already be determinative in selecting a wife: the producing offspring will be a matter of chance and their successful education highly improbable. A good wife, who ought to be friend,helpmate, bearer of children, mother, household head, and manager, who perhaps even has to oversee her own business and official duties separately from her husband, cannot at the same time be a concubine: this would in general mean asking too much of her. Consequently there might occur in the future the reverse of what happened in Pericles' Athens: men who at that time had little more than concubines in their wives turned to the Aspasias on the side because they desired the charms of a sociability that liberated head and heart, a sociability that only the charm and spiritual resilience of women can create. All human institutions such as marriage allow only a moderate degree of practical idealization, failing which, crude remedies immediately become necessary."

"Nothing that women of significance do for their husbands, if they are men of renown and greatness, does more to make their lives easier than becoming the receptacle, as it were, of other people. Contemporaries tend to overlook many mistakes and follies and even actions of gross injustice in their great men if they can just find someone whom they can mistreat and slaughter as a true sacrificial animal in order to relieve their own feelings. Not infrequently, a woman finds within herself the ambition to offer herself for this sacrifice, and then the man can of course be quite content - provided that he is enough of an egoist to put up with having this sort of willing conducting rod for lightning, storms, and rain near him."

"It is ridiculous when a society of people who have nothing decrees the abolition of the right of inheritance, and it is no less ridiculous when people without children engage in the practical work of making laws for a country - they do not in fact have enough ballast in their ship to be able to sail safely into the ocean of the future. But it seems just as nonsensical if someone who has chosen as his task the acquisition of the most universal knowledge and the appraisal of existence as a whole burdens himself with the personal considerations of family, sustenance, safety, or maintaining the respect of his wife and child and thus spreads before his telescope a gloomy veil that hardly any rays of distant galaxies are able to penetrate. So I, too, arrive at the proposition that in matters of the highest philosophical kind, anyone who is married is suspect."

"There is no greater banality among humans than death; second in rank is birth, because not all of those who die have been born; next follows marriage."

>>17322479
>Last man ideology will not "do just as well."
You misunderstand, it will do, it might not do as well as, but it will do as well. You see the distinction?

Is this thread yet just another proof of how misunderstand Nietzsche is? All of these faggots clamoring is one big appeal to authority tantamount to 'Nietzsche wouldn't have liked X, that's why X is bad' so they can reject feminism or some shit. Nietzsche would have called you giant faggots, dudes.

>>17322466
Bump
>>17324096
Here you go: http://www.nietzschesource.org/#eKGWB/GD-Streifzuege-39

>>17324713
Everything he said about feminism was and is still true, and there's been no appeal to authority the entire thread, just quotes being posted disproving common misconceptions on here like "Nietzsche was a modernist/postmodernist."

After a couple years of being familiar with Nietzsche, you will realize he's whatever anyone wants him to be. Everyone has their own pet theory like "oh Nietzsche was really this or that". So if you want to think of him as a postmodernist, go for it. No more or less true than most claims about him.

>>17324703
It won't do at all. Not equally as well and not even less well. What you're talking about is the continuing spread of slave society and its morality and culture which has nothing to do with his transvaluation of values and is exactly what he was arguing against across all his books. You see the distinction?

>>17325231
Nietzsche is just the glorification of word salads by atheists and women.
Nietzsche is to women what Russell is to popsci addicts.

>>17322797>>17321286

>Emancipation of women
is transvaluation of values, 100% supported by Nietzsche .

>>17325307
>100% supported by Nietzsche
He notoriously mocked it.

>>17325307
no more than the empowerment of slaves is a transvaluation of values

>>17325307
feminism is slave morality at its core
them being more or less "in power" doesn't change the fact that they are still slaves at their core

>>17324359
>"A marriage proves its excellence by being able to put up with an occasional "exception.""
>"Nothing that women of significance do for their husbands, if they are men of renown and greatness, does more to make their lives easier than becoming the receptacle, as it were, of other people. Contemporaries tend to overlook many mistakes and follies and even actions of gross injustice in their great men if they can just find someone whom they can mistreat and slaughter as a true sacrificial animal in order to relieve their own feelings. Not infrequently, a woman finds within herself the ambition to offer herself for this sacrifice, and then the man can of course be quite content - provided that he is enough of an egoist to put up with having this sort of willing conducting rod for lightning, storms, and rain near him."
What did he mean by this?

>>17325729
Nietzsche said women are higher than men. He was a feminist.

>>17325231
Pretty much this entire thread proves anon right

>>17322163
fucking rekt

I'm about to dive into Foucault after my exhausting study of Nietzsche in 90 minutes audio book. From the few YouTube videos I have watched on Foucault, he seems to be expanding on Nietzsche's concept of power- or maybe more aptly, how society has used and applied power to form consensus in constraining individual will to whatever measure the zeitgeist deems acceptable.
It makes me happy when I see threads like this pop up. In the real world no one wants to talk about such things.

>>17327215
In that quote, he's observing how women are often unhappy in their marriages and how they act cruelly towards themselves or others as a form of relief, an early conception of Freud's transference basically. For Nietzsche, friendship (the capacity to set aside personal fancy in favor of mutual companionship) is necessary for a healthy marriage, and women are incapable of friendship, because everything they do is based on love. Nietzsche sees love as the bane of friendship and a destroyer of marriages. For a healthy marriage, women must either abandon love, or they have to act cruelly like that and accept "exceptions" in their spouse's behavior. Either approach may be preferable for slave society, while the aristocratic man prefers the "dangerous plaything" and wants a woman who wields her love violently against man to test him.

>>17327228
This is actually a complex subject in Nietzsche and it's understandable why there's so much confusion and bickering regarding it.

In Human, he said that the perfect woman is a higher type than the perfect man, and more rare. He also criticized women for having an inferior intellect than men because their lives revolved around love, which makes them weak in matters such as politics and science. This doesn't mean he was in favor of the "liberated," semi-masculine ideal of a woman that feminists normally have. Instead, he realized that the feminist movement, in the fight for more rights, would necessarily have to masculinize women, and that the femininity of women (basically, women themselves) would perish in the process, making the whole movement absurd. Zarathustra calls for an increase of femininity ("Man shall be bred for war, woman for the recreation of the warrior; all else is folly") and he idealizes "woman" in a manner similar to the Greeks (as self-sacrificing child-bearer and beautiful queen capable of sparking creative wars between men) because that is the masculine aristocratic view on the matter.

But Nietzsche is very conscious of contemporary politics and there is a lot of nuance in his work because of that. He realized that the "great leveling of Europe" (its democratization) was inevitable, despite how he fought against it. Instead, he sought to prepare the revival of aristocratic values, not out of democracy, but alongside it. In Nietzsche's political scheme, democracy can serve as a veil that hides and protects the aristocracy, which remains outside of and untouched by democracy. So, on the one hand, Nietzsche provides observations on how society may adapt to democracy, for example, on what women must do in order to become "liberated," but on the other hand, he disagrees with it entirely, and only supports such things so that his "hyperboreans" may continue their work and retain the values of the aristocracy. There's a dual meaning to almost everything he writes post-Zarathustra and it has to do with his awareness of 19th century growing political affairs.

>>17327729
Absolute COPE

>>17321242
can we get an alt art thread.

>>17322190
that's from zarathustra

>>17327890
It's from Ecce Homo, but he references Zarathustra later in the passage

>>17327729
He literally advocates cucking and a maternal figure as a wife.

>>17327946
Where?

>>17327953
Read the thread

>>17328165
I did. Now read my post.

>>17328244
>>17327215

>>17328340
Like I said before, on the one hand, he's writing about a future Europe leveled by democracy (that's what Human, All Too Human is focused on), and on the other hand, he sees democracy as a veil for the aristocracy (which he explores in his later works). He's "literally advocating" for nothing there, and instead making a scientific analysis and prediction as to how European slave society will evolve.

>>17322364
Bump
I'd really like someone who knows Nietzsche to comment on this.

>>17328444
>Nietzsche advocates cucking
>ITS THE SCIENCE OF THE FUTURE

>>17328876
There's like ten quotes advovating for incest and cucking.

>>17328892
Getting cucked was a critique of modernity. It was dualistic and paradoxical. You need to read more Nietzsche.

>>17321286
It doesn’t matter because he only avoided the conclusions of pomo by being inconsistent.

>>17328892
>slave society will need to operate on a different moral paradigm in the future as the world becomes democratic
>this means Nietzsche advocated cucking
Retard

>>17322163
OH NO NO NO

>>17328959
>he thinks an incel give good advice on women
Fucking neetchtards.

>>17329023
>incel
Hi woman.

>>17328444
He says cuckery is excellence. Stupid copefag.

>>17328948
He avoided nothing. He may have failed to predict certain developments like the growth of Islam and the internet but that's understandable for the 19th century.

>>17329050
The only coping faggots itt are the ones arguing like holes.

>>17329060
He refers to excellence, egoism, and the ideal marriage.
You're an incel taking advice on women from an incel.

>>17329224
Cope, hole.

Why are Nietzscheans always redditors?

>>17325335
>>17325340
>>17325729
Feminism is consistent with his philosophy. The misogyny and racism are the status quo so you can’t have a transvaluation of all values unless you question the white supremacist patriarchy.

>>17329540
They like the phrase "God is dead" without understanding the actual concept of God

>>17329540
because reddit lives rent free in your head

>>17329841
>you can’t have a transvaluation of all values unless you question the white supremacist patriarchy.
>>17327729 explains it better, the end goal is not feminism and other strands of subhuman ideology but an age of overmen. "For where God built a church, there the devil would also build a chapel."

>>17330037
>In this moment I am euphoric
The overman sounds like a fag.

>>17330095
Takes one to know one, eh?

>>17329841
You can't identify one historical order as "the circumstance Nietzsche was trying to transvaluate". Also transvaluation absolutely does not mean "the inversion of [whatever is the traditional moral order]". What you're describing is Nietzsche's concept of slave morality, which is when an oppressed people decides that true morality is [the negation or reverse image of the morality that our oppressors have imposed upon us]. I highly suggest that you read his Genealogy of Morals before you make such outrageous claims about his moral system

Are there any good nietzscheans? Is edgy red$it his only legacy?

>>17330127
>NOOOO THE MEMES ARE EVIL I NEED YOU TO ACCEPT MY PERSPECTIVE
The nietzschean all of a sudden wants socratic dialogue/slave morality.

>>17330146
Nietzsche's master-slave formulation is explicitly perspectivist in the sense that moral beliefs can be historicized and made to be understood in relation to the socio-political power of the groups that create them. That is literally the postmodern connection to Nietzsche

>>17330135
Qtards

>>17330127
>Nietzsche's concept of slave morality, which is when an oppressed people decides that true morality is [the negation or reverse image of the morality that our oppressors have imposed upon us].
So Nietzsche was a slave moralist.

>>17330403
No, he identified Christians, democratists, socialists, etc. to be slave moralists. Nietzsche does not side with the oppressed in his writings and he often critiques their psychology quite viciously. This is the part the right loves about Nietzsche. He wasn't a master moralist either though, his description of the dialectic was purely descriptive (heh) because he recognized that the two moral systems were in a state of perpetual struggle. Rome vs. Judea, Caesar vs. Christ.

>>17330403
>So Nietzsche was a slave moralist.
This dude...

>>17330403
Kek

>>17329841
read something that isn't twitter.

>>17329023
>Gets btfo'd about his own reading of Nietzsche
>Tries to discredit the entire thing by calling Nietzsche an incel

Keep digging the hole, faggot. Eventually you will have to read a book.

>>17322163
>Ressentiment of sister who carried him through life
Nietzschebros we got too cocky

>>17330492
For an atheist, history may well seem that way, given a few historical inconsistencies and things unaccounted for by the philosopher

>>17330403
I don't get it.

>>17331609
He seems to be saying that Nietzsche, perhaps being or feeling oppressed (as a suffering minority) by the perceived, stifling majority, has inverted the morality of that majority by placing an emphasis on material rather than spiritual (unless I have missed some autistic scrap of detail). This is like the atrophied man saying that the spiritual is all that is important to the muscular man; similarly, others deny the spirit because they are atrophied in that department, which is precisely why they deny it, or else they, in their pride, would exalt it as a further example of their own strength and excellence.

But he could always be wrong. And Nietzsche did point to something beyond this slave/master distinction; then again, no one is ever truly falling within Nietzsche's master/slave false dichotomy

>>17331609
Just another butthurt Christian saying "no u" even though everyone knows the religion's history at this point.

>>17331128
Why? Nietzsche didn't.

>>17331735
>Christianity bad
>envy is the greatest evil

>>17322163
Saved.

Nietzsche reads a philosophy book. Nietzsche now thinks Nietzsche has some profound intellectual insight.

Nietzsche publish his notes. Nietzsche spews a bunch of dogshit thinking they have it all figured out.

Based anonymous academic is scrolling through the new books in the library and reads two sentences of their poorly formulated thoughts. Based anonymous academic also sees how their thoughts are not based in reality, but in psychological needs they have. Based anonymous chad points to a single Plato passage which devastates their ill philosophy.

Nietzsche is massively upset at this offense. Striking at their poorly formed idea doesn't just strike at the idea.. it reveals the illnesses in their own thought. Nietzsche mad. Nietzsche now realizes Plato is the big bad enemy who must be erased from history.

Nietzsche doesn't read philosophy (he only reads ports and french moralists), so Nietzsche doesn't actually delve into understanding Plato. Instead Nietzsche fails for any argument they can find to destroy Plato.

"B-but he hated life, he was decadent!" Nietzsche writes out, regaining confidence. "Therefore, we can ignore this hack! My world view isn't sick and disgusting, it's still good!"

Nietzsche publish another book, Twilight of the Idols, assured that Based anonymous academic will repent for his sins against Nietzsche's shitty philosophy. Goes mad before anyone has the chance to respond.

>>17327729
I think the idea of striving for freedom through masculine ideals while ignoring feminine ideals is something that is fairly commonly critiqued in feminist theory these days. But there is also an (in my opinion wise) refusal to let either femininity or masculinity be defined by just warring or bearing children.

>>17333190
Who wins?

>>17321286
>mutual agreement
>post modernism
I swear to god some people.

>>17321242
>Was Nietzsche really a postmodernist?
the anglo retard now realises that about the most loved by psychopaths writer. Nietzsche is a great poet and a good intelectual. Which is why his ideas and his beliefs should never be taken seriously.

>>17333722
>the most loved by psychopaths writer
This pains me, it's true, but it pains me. It would be a more accurate description of Stirner, but he's less known, so you're still correct.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIThlmqg0FU
I read somewhere that this scene was inspired by Leopold and Loeb. The murderer is them and Rupert is a Nietzsche insert.
The psychopaths twist Nietzsche's words into something he never intended.
When I read Nietzsche I feel great warmth, not coldness.

>>17327729
Based. Thank you for taking the time to actually read and understand him.

>>17333722
>the most loved by psychopaths writer.
Based and true
>Nietzsche is a great poet and a good intelectual. Which is why his ideas and his beliefs should never be taken seriously.
Absurdly based

>>17333830
The words of a cold man can seem warm if he is a class-A propagandist (AKA poet) who is readily able to sell you the right lies considering your cultural context and list of contempts against society (hate Christianity? Hate weakness? Love ancient Greece?)

>>17334358
Are you a Christian?

>>17324259
>If we could ever get ourselves to think beyond the claims of custom, we might well consider whether nature and reason do not direct a man toward multiple marriages in succession, perhaps taking the form of an initial marriage at the age of twenty-two years to a girl somewhat older than him, one who is spiritually and morally superior to him and who can be his guide through the dangers of his twenties (ambition, hatred, self-contempt, passions of all kinds). Her love would later become wholly maternal and she would not only tolerate it, but would promote it in the most salutary way if in his thirties the man were to form a relationship with a very young girl whose education he would himself take in hand.
So multiple wives at different stages of life, with snu-snu in your 20s and fresh jailbait in your 30s? Holy fuck, where do I sign up?

>>17329841
Did you even read OP. Trnasvaluation for the sake of transvaluation is just petty and slavish. He is trying to create the conditions out of which institions can grow. And he notoriosly defends that aristocratic and masculine instincts are what's lacking. In fact he thinks these are the only instincts that can give rise to them.

>>17334443
Cope

>>17334459
>aristocratic and masculine instincts
He doesn't know what these are so why take his advice?

>>17335112
See >>17335112

>>17335119
See >>17335112

>>17322163
Lmao neetch btfo