/lit/ - Literature

>>17620933
Greeks.
Aries. The dumb oaf of war

whomst is on the right?

>>17621192
Reinhard from Dies Irae

Holden

>>17620933
cutie on the right

>>17620933
Holden. Thinking of writing my dissertation on his Philosophy.

>>17620933
Are you the /a/utist with a boner for Johan Liebert who constantly tries to hype him by regularly comparing him to Holden?

>>17623664
No, but incidently I also really like Johan. Monster is probably my favorite anime. But I haven't talked about Monster or Johan on /lit/ before

>>17623790
Ok. The /a/utist stays on /a/ and does his hyping.

>>17623591
please share some of your insight on the subject.

>>17623591
>>17623939
I second this

>>17623664
>>17623790
Johan is hardly comparable to Holden though

>>17623591
I am >>17623939
My idea is that truthfully Holden represent European civilization in the fullest. I don't think "brotherhood equality liberty" or something else can define it. Our goal is just like Holden's - to know everything, to understand everything, to unveil every mystery and to categorize every atom in the universe. The one thing he truly despises is spirituality in all its forms. In a way he is pushing humanity away from it more than enslaving it...

>>17624026
Read Dialectic of Enlightenment, thank me later.

>>17623972
They are for the /a/utist.

>>17624026
Congratulations, you get it.
I have heard that to truly understand Blood Meridian, one must read The Decline of the West.

>>17624254
more of an issue with anime as a whole, lacks any form of subtlety

>>17623939
>>17623939
I am doing a degree in Classics so I'm going to relate Holden's philosophy (and particularly his attitude towards power and violence) to that of Thrasymachus and Callicles in Plato's Republic and Gorgias. Simply put Holden's attitude to power is that of 'Might is right', or as I will argue, that of a kraterocracy. I am particularly enamored by his view that violence is the ultimate expression of the will of man as human history is driven by violence, with morality subverted at every turn. The rise and fall of civilization is determined by who is strong enough to exert their will on another man. The greatest men of the ancient world understood this maxim and regarded morality for what it really is - a shadow cast by the Olympians that forge world history at the point point of a sword. It's an interesting problem, as even Plato himself cannot thoroughly refute this: in Socrates' dialogue with Thrasymachus, he resorts to strawmen and poor reasoning.

>>17624566
vae victis

>>17624566
I can just shoot you in the stomach with my .38

>>17624606
That's my point, fag. This is what I get for effortposting.

I know /lit/ is a board of dilettantes but kill yourself, PLEASE.

>>17620944
Nonsense. Ares got smacked by Diomedes. Therefore Diomedes would make a better embodiment of war

>>17623591
>>17624026
>>17624566
From a metaphysical perspective, are you familiar with the ties between Holden, Paradise Lost, and Moby Dick? I posted on it before, but I believe there is a mound of literary merit to the Judge as a Saturnine entity.

>>17624503
wrong

>>17626704
No but please expand.

>>17626749
Here he is.

>>17627270
To begin with, the Judge bears a reference to Miltons Satan by way of an allusion to him making gunpowder on a volcanoe, whereas Satan created a volcanoe on impact with Earth, and also introduces gunpowder to man for violence, though this is small work to the parallels and references between the Judge and Moby Dick. As part of the book Ahab and Starbuck argue over the nature of the titular whale. To Starbuck, it is just a whale, however monstrous. But to Ahab the whale shape is but a pasteboard mask for something greater, the entity behing all of mans suffering. If Ahab can kill it, then he has the power to smite the sun, and to conquer something far beyond man. I could go on about the occult subtext of Moby Dick, but we are on Blood Meridian.
The Judge is, in short, like a specific iteration of Saturn, as the esoteric knows him., which is to say the embodiment, and perhaps coordinator and archon, of the cruelty and suffering so inherent to physcical existence, even the nature of man being bound in his mind and soul to physicality.
The Judge is bloody handed, strength and force upon the physical plane is all that is just. There is, to him and the stage he dances upon, nothing in a morality which does not hold force as primacy.
But he is no mindless brute. The Judge learns, he knows, in a single action he counts. Like God forbiding the counting of the Israelites, for to count them would be to kill them, and to reduce mortal, spiritualy imbued men to mere numbers. That is what the Judge does to all he can get his hands on. Why? He said it himself, to know something in such a way is to become suzerain of it.
As for the killings as a whole, I believe that the taking on of a gang like Glantons, or the crew of the Peqoud, is a sortve malefic baptism, not in holy water but damned blood which has been tainted by the Judges hand.
There is, especialy, one important distinction. The Judge amd Moby Dick are not Satan or one of his demons, after all Ahab invokes and baptises his lance in the Devils name, and with that what house divided against itself could stand? They are, as I said, Saturn, the spirit of fallen nature which holds men from the spiritual entirely.
I hope this has been acceptable. If not, then I hope the thread is still up when I get home later so I can reference my books and type on something other than a flipphone.

>>17627270
Not him but this Yale lecturer goes into detail about everything the other anon said and also has a theory regarding the notion McCarthy set out to write, and be remembered for, a great American novel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgyZ4ia25gg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZFmf4T5L3o

>>17627549
Utterly fascinating, thank you. I'd like to hear more, if you have the time and the thread isn't archived. The point you made about cataloguing and counting is very interesting - the very act places the actor as the subject, and the 'countee' as the object, stripping them of everything non quantifiable, including their soul.

>>17628080
Precisely. I have a six more hours of trade school left, but if I am able afterwards I will set about as much as I can. If not, the best source I can give on part of what Im getting at is a book called Meditations on the Tarot, which I consider indispensable for the Western esoteric tradition.

>>17628147
I look forward to it.

Bump so I can see Hermeticist anon post.

>>17620933
>I am the sentient embodiment of war
dont know what this shit thread is about but the only sentient embodiment of war is pic related, officially declared to be the incarnation of mahakala, god of war.

>>17629334
What couldve been, anon. What couldve been.

bumping for hermeticism

>>17628147
bumping for this

Just got done at the gym. Once I have food done it is time for an autistic rant about the Judge and the Hermetic worldview.

Beginning with this as a prelude, I will say that I have been researching the subject of Hermeticism and it's substrates like Alchemy and Thaumaturgy for a few years now, and, in combination with Christianity, hold it as my religious faith. To be short, even though I feel conflicted in my worthiness to it, I have had religious experiences from it as a tradition. I will, using knowledge from, and as needed, the core Hermetic texts (The Corpus Hermeticum, Asclepius, Emerald Tablet, and the Kore Kosmu), Meditations on the Tarot, the reference book of Alchemy and Mysticism by Roob, A Suggestive Inquiry Into The Hermetic Mystery, and some works of Manly P. Hall, among other assorted books, to give background to part of the Christian-Hermetic worldview that hones on what is relevant to Blood Meridian, and then how the Judge relates to what I described earlier.
To begin, the universe as we know it, the Cosmos, was formed from the works of God with man as a helper
Quoting the Scott translation of the Corpus on the matter of creation, spoken after Hermes Trismestigus receives divine knowledge from the agathodaemon/angel Poemandres
"And I beheld a boundless view; all was changed into light, mild and joyous light; and I marvelled when I saw it. And in a little while, there had come to be in one part a downward-tending darkness, terrible and grim....And thereafter I saw the darkness changing into a watery substance, which was unspeakably tossed about, and gave forth smoke as from fire; and I heard it making an indescribable sound of lamentation; for there was sent forth an inarticulate cry. But from the Light there came a holy Word, which took its stand upon the watery substance; and methought this word was the voice of the Light" [Libellus I, 8A]
After this the vision of a world ordered by the Lighted Word, which is the Son of God, and the Powers, or Ideals, which emanated from God. There is then, from God, spawned the second Mind, or the Demiurge (very different from the Gnostic one) and the Seven Administrators (see the parallel to the Gnostic Archons, though in Hermeticism they are either relay stations for the word and action of God (The Demiurge, as described) or overseers of aspects of the newly made material realm).
The distinction is then made even further into Nature, from which is formed the elements and unthinking animals: fish and birds and the like.
Next, after all of this, comes the creation of Man.
"But Mind the Father of all, he who is Life and Light, gave birth to Man, a Being like to Himself. And He took delight in Man, as being His own offspring; for Man was very goodly to look on, bearing the likeness of his Father. With good reason then did God take delight in Man; for it was God's own form that God took delight in. And God delivered over to Man all things that had been made." [Libellus I, 12]
1/?

Is... is war here to stay lads?

>>17630610
"And Man took station in the Maker's sphere, and observed the things made by his brother, who was set over the region of fre; and having observed the Maker's creation in the region of fire, he willed to make things for how own part also; and his Father gave permission, having in himself all the working of the Administrators; and the Administrators took delight in him, and each of them gave him a share of his own nature.
And having learnt to know the being of the Administrators, and received a share of their nature, he willed t break through the bounding circle of their obirts; and he looked down through the structure of the heavens, having broken through the sphere, and showed to downward-tending Nature the beautiful form of God. And Nature, seeing the beauty of the form of God, smiled with insatiate love for Man, showing that most beautiful form in the water, and its shadow on the earth. and he, seeing this form, a form like to his own, in earth and water, loved it, and willed to dwell there. And the deed followed close on the design; and he took up his abode in matter devoid of reason. And Nature, when she had got him with whom she was in love, wrapped him in her clasp, and they were mingled in one, for they were in love with one another.
And that is why man, unlike all other living creatures upon earth, is twofold. He is mortal by reason of his body; he is immortal by reason of the Man of eternal substance. He is immortal, and has all things in his power; yet he suffers the lot of a mortal, being subject to Destiny. He is exalted above the structre of the heavens; yet his is born the slave of Destiny. He is bisexual, as his Father is bisexual, and sleepless, as his Father is sleepless; yet he is mastered by carnal desire and by oblivion" [Libellus I, 13A-15]
Here we have the Fall of Man described from the Hermetic perspective. It is a combination of Man's hubris AND the temptation of Nature, which is now left inherently unfinished without the contribution of Man, is what lead's to Man's mortal nature. The bisexual part is also a literal translation, much like Christ's use of love; it is best to say that, and this is a common theme in Hermeticism and I would argue all occult traditions, that God is possessing of both the masculine and feminine forms of power.
Reaching closer, it is established in Meditations on the Tarot, and, if you can parse through it's incomprehensible nature, A Suggestive Inquiry, that there are two different forms of Nature; there is Nature as it is being made, or the Nature of what God intended; this is the holy virgin in perpetual birth as described in Revelations; she is a form of Wisdom, and bears love for Man and God both, imbued with a similar form of beauty. Then, there is the other form, Nature as she is incomplete, or Nature as fallen; this is the snake in the garden which tempted Adam and Eve (More in the differences between Fallen Nature and Satan here in a sec), and this is the Whore of Babylon

Is Blood even worth reading if you are essentially a /lit/ brainlet? Is a decent literary background required to even get a grasp of what it's trying to say?

>>17630689
This is also where the counting thing comes into play; as you said, the act of cataloguing and counting strips the countee of everything non quantifiable. This is a perfect way to put it, as the material is the realm of QUANTITY, not quality. This is why God forbade the counting of the people of Isreal, for to 'count' them in the spiritual sense would be to kill them all.
The key difference between Satan and Fallen Nature, which for all intents and purposes I will refer to as the Demiurge (and, soon, as the other 'iteration' of Saturn), is the direction of origin. This is where the Abrahamic point of view comes in; Satan, as Adversary, holds the position of a metaphysical Prosecution Lawyer; Upon seeing Man's fall, and that God still continues to love mortal man despite his failings, rebels against God alongside 1/3rd of the Angelic Host. From here, these fallen, From Above, to make a capitalized distinctions, take up the similar role of grand tester of men's virtues and his faith in God. This is a spiritual, almost totally metaphysical evil, with the only goal of tormenting man both to spite God and attempt to make man either revoke or hate God as well (see: the story of Job). This evil is not fought so much as it is vanquished by the presence of the good; the metaphysical defense has a strong enough case, the prosecution is dismissed. That manner of thing.
The Demiurge as a whole, however, is From Below, in that it is either totally unaware of God, or feels spite with no greater goal than tormenting man. In short, Satan is vertical, Fallen Nature is either horizontal or at a slight angle.
Every disease, every parasite, all the brutality and horror inherent to the physical world that man finds himself trapped in. This is the work and derivative of Fallen Nature, which seeks to drive men down even further and to make them forget that they have souls in the first place, rather than anything lofty like tempting away from God.
As an analog to demons, there are egregores, which are the low-level metaphysical coagulation of the Demiurge's cruelty and men's own nature within it. Moloch is a perfect example.
Then, there is the figure Saturn, which is important in reference to the Judge. With all of the above, I theorize that Saturn is the most warped of the Administrators by Man's fall. For the sake of being concise, think of Saturn as the idea of learning from a mistake; you make the mistake because of something, the mistake teaches you. When Man is immortal and metaphysical, there is little pain with learning. When man is mortal, and must suffer the pains of life, then Saturn is murderously cruel. He exemplifies, and takes on, the worst qualities of a hard world which is savagery and horror. Saturn is the way the material world warps us for the worse. Think of early man in the Winter; if he did not learn how to built effective shelter while growing and storing enough crops, then Winter would kill him. That is the Saturn we have.

>>17630733
You can read it and enjoy it, its does not require you to grasp all the allusions, but keep coming back to it as you read more and more ---especially classical and religious lit, because it gets better that way. This is generally true for all McCarthy, his big books especially; and outer dark.

>>17630793
Now, now we get into the part that's relevant to the thread; The Judge. The Judge is obviously not a mortal man, or perhaps any kind of man (The coin, Davey, and the knowledge we have that he is a favorite). He is hardly even a physical creature, the rape and murder aside. The theory I hold is that the Judge is a specific iteration of Saturn and the Demiurge, as I have alluded to above, manifested in a roughly human form this time, rather than a giant fuckoff whale. The points being that; despite his ethereal nature he is almost solely involved in the physical realm, and alludes to holding great knowledge of the hidden principles it operates on; it has not been bled of it's strangeness for him, for in ways he is connected to it. Of the knowledge we do se him hold, he codifies, and therefor reduces, all he can come across, every aspect of God's creation that man and Nature have wrought. This is to become Suzerain, lord and master over physicality. This is not an attempt to tempt man from God, or to drive out Good as a divine force; this is to gain control over a work of God, faulty and incomplete as it may be, and to sever the link between Man and Father entirely. Driving the gang to increasingly bloodthirsty and vile acts, acting as he does, this is to crush the spine which connects man to something higher entirely, and to drag them into something far lower as Nature did to Man initially. He is a walking lusus naturae, marked as the albino, infant-like appearance as a warning that he is Saturn of some sort, bloody handed and seeking more, walking the earth.

>>17630610
>>17630689
>>17630793
>>17630872
And that's it without me having to go into more, thank you for coming to my TED talk.

>>17630882
TED talks are retarded, and don't go over anything informative or insightful. Your posts however were quite interesting. And I didn't really know there was a difference between Satan/Fallen Angels and the Demiurge/Saturn.

Relating to the judge, I agree with the interpretation that he is a djinn, as described in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLJW5FSi2OE

There is even this passage in Blood Meridian which supports this claim somewhat:
>The judge like a great ponderous djinn stepped through the fire and flames delivered him up as if he were in some way native to their element.
Although the sentence itself is a simile, given everything we know about the judge, I don't think its a stretch to interpret him as a literal djinn.

>>17631008
Just figured I'd try to get a joke in, but I'm glad it has been of use to you, anon! The distinction between Satan and the Demiurge has been one of the most elegant parts I've learned of, alongside the sheer amount of similarities between Hermeticism and early Christianity. Genuinely thank you for letting me finally have a chance to put all of this down into writing.
I wonder if it was intentional on McCarthy's part to write the Judge in such a compiled way that any religious or secular outlook in the West/Asia Minor could have a compelling answer for what he is

>Diea Irae
Cool VN

>>17620933
I take one look at the character on the right and I can immediately tell anyone who associates themselves with said character is a pencil-necked geek IRL.

>>17631008
This interpretation is actually nice because Djinns in middle eastern lore are spirits of the desert.

>>17630882
This really is a unifying theory, thank you for typing it up. Particularly the new take on the fall of man being due to temptation of nature as well as hubris. It's almost as if the Judge's purpose is in part to fulfill this ancient sin to the extent that mans connection with the earth and thus to God is utterly severed.
From your account the hermetic tradition looks extremely interesting, do you perhaps have a chart or a couple of books to recommend that would explain it further?

>>17631753
Thank you, anon, I'm glad you enjoyed my effort.
As I posted in the prelude, the Corpus Hermeticum is the core text, there is also some other documents purported authorship by Hermes Trismestigus which are relatively acceptable to the Hermetic 'canon'. These can all be found in the Hermetica, of which the Scott translation is the most concise. Aside from that, I would recommend looking to Jacob Boehme, Elias Ashmole, Fludd, Meditations on the Tarot, Alchemy and Mysticism by Roob, Hermetic Magic by Flowers (keeping in mind that some attributions are incorrect, it is a good source), and whatever you can from Manly P. Hall, though keep in mind he's not so much a concise source on the matter as he is a general one.
Research into the Hermetic tradition is almost like a ticket to entry for interacting with it; you have to compile all of these sources and different ideas into one unified outlook, but I wish you the best of luck if you pursue it, anon.

>>17624566
What didn't you like about Plato's reasoning?

I decided to literally write a blogpost desu on these two characters, so I'll repost it here:

>War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner.
>Judge Holden (Blood Meridian)

>My love is destruction. Its flames ache to devour all that exist: Heaven and Hell, God and Satan; all things in Creation, from the first universe that was, to the last that will ever be.
>Reinhard Heydrich (Dies Irae)

The archetype of a sentient embodiment of war continues to persist, and has morphed considerably from its mythological origins. Having finished Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian, considered by some literary critics to be the great American novel. I am left transfixed by a particular figure, a haunting presence that defies death: the Judge, Judge Holden. The Judge is a complex figure, and there are many interpretations as to who he really is. One common interpretation is that he is the embodiment of war itself. This, along with his function in the novel, reminded me quite of bit of Reinhard Heydrich from Dies Irae.

Reinhard proudly claims to be war itself, and so in this respect he is not subtle. What makes Reinhard standout as a villain, is how evil yet seductively charming he is. He wants destruction for its own sake, or really; for his amusement. To him war is fun, and an eternity spent warring couldn't be a more ideal form of the afterlife in his conception. He would be in complete agreement with the judge on this point:

>Men are born for games. Nothing else. Every child knows that play is nobler than work. He knows too that the worth or merit of a game is not inherent in the game itself but rather in the value of that which is put at hazard. Games of chance require a wager to have meaning at all. Games of sport involve the skill and strength of the opponents and the humiliation of defeat and the pride of victory are in themselves sufficient stake because they inhere the worth of the principals and define them. But trial of chance or trial of worth all games aspire to the condition of war for here which is wagered swallows up game, player, all.”

(1/2)

>>17632502
Easily some of the best parts of both Blood Meridian and Dies Irae are the speeches and dialogues given by Judge Holden and Reinhard respectively. At some point Reinhard in the midst of battle famously states, “I love everything, therefore I will destroy everything”. The judge says something essentially to that effect as well. Possessing a near expert level of knowledge on nearly every subject (something true of Reinhard as well), he is once asked by a fellow crew member why he always meticulously jots notes of artifacts they pass by. The Judge responds, “to expunge them from the memory of man”. What he's saying there is that he wants to record everything so that he can keep track of what he destroys, with his ultimate goal of destroying everything from the “memory of man”. This ties into another famous quote of his, “Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent.” In order to have dominion over everything (to become a “suzerain” in his own words), you must first know everything. For you cannot conquer what you don't know.

There is however a key point of contrast between these two characters who share this same archetype. Judge Holden is visibly terrifying, with the image I included in this post being my favorite depiction of him. Reinhard on the other hand, is gorgeous. Compared to the Judge's bald head and completely hairless body, Reinhard is characterized with a mane of flowing blonde hair. The importance of this contrast in outward appearances is that the two characters signify different aspects of war.

Reinhard best represents the seduction of war, and the glory as well as rewards it promises. In the prologue alone, he convinces countless Nazi soldiers faced with imminent defeat and slaughter against the Russian troops storming Berlin, to instead give up their own lives and souls to him. Encouraging them to participate in a group suicide that would put the largest of death-cults to shame. They went along with his command, because he promised the glory that Hitler failed to deliver on. It is also noted when that happened, “This could not have been the first time.”

(2/?)

>>17632507
If Reinhard is the seducer of war, then the judge is its rapist. Indeed, there are several instances in the novel where it is heavily suggested that the judge was responsible for a brutal rape, but it is never concretely confirmed. But his fetish for violence is no secret. While the judge is capable of persuasive charm, his preference for violence is clear. Even when he does display his persuasive abilities, the threat of violence that his domineering stature imposes must surely add a feeling of extortion to any request he makes. To list the unfathomably gruesome cruelty of the judge would still not accurately communicate how truly horrifying he is. I think the best example is when he was left in charge of the gang and a group of hostages when the gang leader, Glanton, had to leave for other business. When Glanton finally returns, one of the hostages comes desperately running to him only able to say, “That man, that man.” What Judge Holden personifies, is the horror of war itself.

I suppose the last point of comparison I would like to touch on, is how both Reinhard and judge Holden are based on real people. Reinhard Heydrich was a high ranking Nazi official. They tie this in an interesting way in Dies Irae, but obviously the overall depiction of Reinhard in Dies Irae is mostly fictional. Judge Holden on the other hand is much more mysterious.

Both the real and fictional Judge Holden was the second in command of the Glanton Gang; mercenaries who in 1849 temporarily worked for the Mexican government to genocide Apache Indians. However, the Glanton gang (lead by John Glanton) also slaughtered peaceful tribes in order to collect more Indian scalps which they could exchange for a higher bounty. At the end of 1849 the state of Chihuahua outlawed the gang, and put bounties on their heads. Samuel Chamberlain, who at one time worked for the Glanton gang wrote about his experiences with them in his memoir: My Confession: The Recollections of a Rogue. Mentioned several times in the memoir, it's the only document that attests to the existence of Judge Holden. In it he is described as, “a man of gigantic size called "Judge" Holden of Texas. Who or what he was no one knew but a cooler blooded villain never went unhung; he stood six feet six in his moccasins, had a large fleshy frame, a dull tallow colored face destitute of hair and all expression. His desires was blood and women.” In the memoir he also notes, “Holden was by far the best educated man in northern Mexico; he conversed with all in their own language, spoke in several Indian lingos, at a fandango would take the Harp or Guitar from the hands of the musicians and charm all with his wonderful performance.”

(3/4)

>>17632509
It is the fact that the only testimony of the Judge's existence is in several pages of an obscure, forgotten memoir that makes him more terrifying for me. Given how similar the description of the real Judge Holden, and the fictional one is, it makes it that much more difficult to draw the line between fiction and reality.

What can be said though is that “war endures”. As long as there are masses of people desperate for glory, then Reinhard will be there to seduce them. And as long as there are blood-soaked battlefields, the towing silhouette of the judge will be there to lead men to their doom.

(4/4)

>>17632502
Weeb

>>17632507
what a midwit take on a otherwise complex trait...

>>17635284
What would your take be? Keep in mind this was a literal blogpost, not an article. I like to jot my thoughts and impressions after finishing a book (in this case Blood Meridian). What I wrote isnt a serious analysis so much as its just a collection of impressions and connections I made while reading.

>>17620933
Does Dies Irae justice to Nietzsche?

>>17636631
>Does Dies Irae justice to Nietzsche?
As far as weeb-media goes yes, at some parts at least.