/lit/ - Literature

>>18011410
I don't know but Kojima is a hack who based his entire stories on a few books. Try to look them up.

Probably. That game just copy and pastes stuff philosophers and sociologists were writing about in the eighties.

>>18011419
I see people saying this, but they rarely can give specific examples. And when they do they're usually not about the same themes. So I was wondering if /lit/ could help with it while I research it on my own.

>>18011428
>That game just copy and pastes stuff philosophers and sociologists were writing about in the eighties.
Do you have examples? I don't doubt similar ideas have been discussed, ideas are rarely if ever 100% original. But when it comes to the specific issues MGS2 deals with, I can't think of much.

>two video game threads up at once
wtf are these discord trannies doing on /lit/?

>>18011478
Death stranding and MGSV deal with similar themes as well. Kojima has gotten more autistic in recent years but that isn't a bad thing. he's graduated to schizo kino and is pretty /lit/ for a game developer

>>18011488
>he's graduated to schizo kino and is pretty /lit/ for a game developer
an adult typed this.

>>18011491
He's not wrong though

>>18011410
>/v/edditors think this is deep

>>18011500
Why do you feel it isn't deep? It's very relevant right now too.

>>18011504
it's basic baudrillardian hyperreality. ultimately superficial, just like references to gnosticism in literally every jrpg in existence.

>>18011515
Do you have any specific examples of fiction applying Baudrillard's ideas about hyperreality to the internet and digital spread of information? Also, I don't expect it to be the most in-depth exploration of the ideas, but it was presented in an interesting way through the game.

>>18011515
out of context it comes off as im13andthisisdeep core but in context its mainly meant to be an imposing villain speech that attacks raided and the players masculinity, and at that, its pretty effective. Incredibly great moment from a storytelling point of view, the atmosphere in the scene and the buildup towards it make it a highlight of filmmaking

>>18011531
*raiden

>>18011410
A warning of close minded zealotry

Any one of you, fight me so one of us may die and the other prevail

>>18011527
>>18011531
yeah i don't think it's bad for a video game to explore these concepts or anything but it's just not as sensationalist as you think it is.

>>18011531
also adding on to this, the critique of social media is mores successful as satire, rather than philosophy. Kojima is no philosopher, but the way he criticizes the way social media puts us in gated communities is portrayed very entertainingly in MGS2 and Death Stranding. He's a good pulp writer who throws in interesting half baked philosophy, and creates something great

>>18011544
I don't think it's sensationalist, but I think it's a bit more original and creative than some people give it credit for. People are quick to dismiss Kojimbo as a hack that just copies everything without really supporting it.
>>18011527
I can't access the article yet, but this looks interesting
"Jean Baudrillard in Cyberspace: Internet, Virtuality, and Postmodernity"
https://www.jstor.org/stable/42946283?seq=1
The Matrix came out a bit before MGS2 and was inspired by Baudrillard.

>>18011531
>>18011552
Yeah, I agree with this more or less. Though to add on to it, it's also about attacking the player's control, which is interesting in a meta sense. Also, people focus a lot on the stories, but I really appreciate all the little touches he puts in his games, through secrets/easter eggs, and giving you ways to mess around or alternate approaches to playing. I don't think he gets enough credit for that sometimes.

https://gamasutra.com/blogs/BrettFujioka/20130306/187916/Japanese_Postmodernism_and_Fandom_The_Rise_of_Raiden_and_What_Kojima_Really_Meant.php
Haven't fully read this yet, but it's relevant.

>>18011410
>Although there are people suffering in poverty, huge donations are made to protect endangered species.
NOT THE HECKIN' ANIMALERINOS!!!!

>>18011442
>>18011478
>Simulacra and Simulation
>The Selfish Gene
>Gravity's rainbow

These are just off the top of my head but you should take these so called references with a mountain of salt since Kojima himself shows extremely cursory knowledge owing to reading bad translations (his engrish is notoriously bad) or simply showing fascination with concepts and their aesthetic compounds rather than the actual text.
And no offense, really, but only a grade schooler would find his writing revolutionary in any sense, and it's all backdropped by some of the most garish nip humor that even for vidya gives it a very inconsistent tone. Then there's the fact that all the "good" MGS games were cowritten by that other guy who's mysteriously absent in the worst games (4, V).

Thanks for the recommendations.
>And no offense, really, but only a grade schooler would find his writing revolutionary in any sense
I wasn't calling it revolutionary by itself, I was mainly interested in previous work dealing with similar ideas. Though I do think as a video game it is revolutionary in some ways (or at least original and interesting).
>it's all backdropped by some of the most garish nip humor that even for vidya gives it a very inconsistent tone
This part is more subjective I guess, but I love his goofy tone. It's perfect for an action game like this where you're doing crazy things.
>Then there's the fact that all the "good" MGS games were cowritten by that other guy who's mysteriously absent in the worst games (4, V).
This part was disproven a while ago, Fukushima only wrote some of the Codec conversations (usually ones unrelated to the main story)

>>18011483
Butters is crying about /lit/ again in Hasan Pikers discord.

>>18011862
Butterfly is on discord ? :3

>>18011862
I don't know how to feel about any of what you posted. Please give more context.

>>18011862
Why are you in his discord?

Cringe.

>>18011856
>Though I do think as a video game it is revolutionary in some ways
The only praise I think they deserve has nothing to do with the writing and more to do with the gameplay structure and the emergent meta narrative, specifically 2.
Kojima purely as a writer is one of the most clumsy, autistic westaboos I've seen even in vidya period. You can find better, more cogent writing in games like SMT or Chrono trigger. Stuff that doesn't pretend to address all this topical pseudo political statements that only serve to portray Kojima's pathological obsession with western culture.
The only reason I keep stressing this is because of his juvenile drive to play this pathetic auteur persona, the likes of which you never see with real auteurs, and his need to meticulously add all that signature quirkiness at every turn to substitute a well written narrative. It's all high stakes and secret western governments and conspiracy theories which looking back couldn't be more derivative outside of his nihonese upbringing, yet played as if completely novel by virtue of his creative direction.

>>18011967
>You can find better, more cogent writing in games like SMT or Chrono trigger.
Chrono Trigger is literally for little kids and SMT characters are written in the most petty strawman high-school edge form possible.

>>18011410
The New York Trilogy by Paul Auster was the inspiration for MGS2 IIRC.

>>18011967
>games like SMT
Not him, which is your favourite SMT? Mine is probably either SMT2, Strange Journey, or DeSu1.

>>18011967
>Chrono Trigger
>cogent writing
>literally a time travel story

>>18011967
>more to do with the gameplay structure and the emergent meta narrative, specifically 2
Yeah, that's mainly what I was referring to
>>18012033
>>18012054
It has great writing as a fun adventure story for kids though

>>18012034
Yeah, that was one of the inspirations. That's where Peter Stillman's name came from too apparently.

>>18011679
https://medium.com/@Brett_Fujioka/the-literary-source-material-for-metal-gear-solid-5ae96314cf73

Is this where that whimper line originated from? Unironically a kino line

>>18011967
Catherine is the only megaten game with a competent story. the others all have cool premises and ideas but never live up to it. every game has 2 or 3 really cool ideas and then zero writing. Catherine was actually written

>>18012342
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hollow_Men
No, that's from The Hollow Men by T.S. Elliot.

>>18012351
The stories are sparse in a lot of them, but I don't think that's a bad thing necessarily.
>>18012043
Not him, but for me it's probably between 1 and 3. I haven't played 2 yet though.

>>18012033
>Chrono Trigger is literally for little kids
I think that's the point.
>like SMT or Chrono trigger
implies those games are made with kids in mind there's no pretention
unlike Hideo who's always talking about hidden subtext and political messages relating almost entirely to US pop culture
it's peak cringe imo

I couldn't give a shit about whether or not Kojima stole his ideas on information and control from some philosopher.

I just want to know who the autist was who makes the technical references in MGS games that put Tom Clancy to shame. Like bringing up NSWC Indian Head in MGS2, or that monologue about custom 1911s in MGS3.

Who is that madman?

>>18011738
>Then there's the fact that all the "good" MGS games were cowritten by that other guy who's mysteriously absent in the worst games (4, V).
it's less that and more that Kojima had been wanting to end and distance himself from the series ever since MGS1.

>>18011410
do you guys think Pynchon ever played a Kojima game (or any videogame really)? He mentions him in Bleeding Edge. It would be kind of funny to imagine old Pynchon playing jap games and watching anime

>>18011738
Honestly the best part about MGS2 is the metanarrative at play. Looking at it from some stance of him introducing brand new ideas is silly, that's not the point. When it comes to Kojima games people use unfair standards. For a video game it's pretty fucking great and offers angles only this medium could.

>>18011410
Jap novel VIRUS, whose author I can’t recall. This >>18011419

The Philosophers was an actual small advisory group to FDR . . . history books dealing with spook shit around the early Cold War will be of more interest to you.
>Desperate Deception, Thomas Mahl
UK interference in election primaries to have an internationalist Simp run against FDR’s final term
>New Lies For Old, Anatoly Golitsyn
Soviet defector around Bezmenov’s time, spells things out like Trust Operation e.g. Queueanon