/lit/ - Literature

>>18131290
In christianity there is sometimes the idea you can progress after life.
But anyway christian exoterism simply can't be compatible with the real understanding of "reincarnation".
In the same way the doctrine of reincarnation doesn't make sense metaphysically.
I would suggest you to see it's refutation by Guénon and others.

What you do in this life means what your individuality is. And so it is fixed. Your individuality is good or bad, and it doesn't "reincarnate". Hence the eternel hell or paradise.
Then there is more than individuality, there is an analogical continuity to your ego. But the risk is confusing this other dimension correspondence with this world mode of existence.
So you can insist on the discontinuity, or on the continuity. In each case, the danger is confusing this mode of existence and this individuality with others and so limiting the all possibility.

>>18131505
Maybe less caffeine... I've cut back to two half cups
That equals one whole cup when you drink the other half after breakfast

>>18131540
I was a bit quick in my explanation, forgive me.
Developing and explaining what I said would take a lot of place.

>>18131505
So after death we just go to another plane of existence but don't come back to this earth? I don't think I understood everything but thanks for your answer.I'll look into the refutation by Guenon

>>18131290
>the doctrine of heaven and hell and the doctrine of reincarnation
all the same thing innit, heaven and hell like nirvana and samsara are the same thing, only the self interprets it as pleasure or pain, if heaven and hell are experience/realization of the absolute/the non-conditioned, reincarnation reentry into conditioned state. like a drop of water in a river entering the ocean, then absorbed by clouds and falls as a raindrop back into the river

>>18131290
>How do they reconcile the doctrine of heaven and hell and the doctrine of reincarnation?
Guenon reconciles them in ‘Man and His Becoming’. According to Guenon, Advaita Vedanta comes closest to the eternal metaphysical truth and what they say about the afterlife is true, namely that the subtle body of jivas transmigrate at death (but this is not the same as the western concept of reincarnation) and that jivas can either transmigrate into a new body or can reach the Brahmaloka, which is a paradise-like realm that offers a temporary respite from further transmigration until the end of the cycle of universal manifestation, at which point all the souls in Brahmaloka enter into transmigration again. In order to attain moksha and be eternally free from transmigration one has to attain moksha while embodied in the world or while in the Brahmaloka. Guenon has some footnote or comment in ‘Man and His Becoming’ where he says that normies who follow the exoteric aspect of Abrahamic religions and abide by their injunctions are admitted to the Brahmaloka, whereas its only people who attain moksha or the esoteric equivalent in other religions (like fana in Sufism) who attain eternal freedom and union with God without first needing intermediary steps like first ascending to the Brahmaloka (and there is no guarantee that everyone in Brahmaloka attains moksha so in Guenon’s understanding a Christian or Muslim could theoretically attain to heaven/paradise and then enter into transmigration again billions of years in the future)

>>18131884
What about total non-believers that don't follow any religion as is the case with most normies nowadays?

>>18131884
Sounds a lot like Buddhist afterlife, but with Platonic metaphysics.

>>18131627
Yes exactly.
Because the universal manifestation is infinite, so we continue smoothly from what we lived to a continuity, not another body in this world. The latter would imply that we become someone else and that the universal manifestation is limited like a closed circuit.

>>18131884
My soul is not personal, how then is salvation possible? I am also the victims of Holodomor!

>>18132151
From what I remember the primary Upanishads say both that people who practice rites and who have inner spiritual knowledge or who have a spiritual practice reach the Brahmaloka through the Devayana, that people who follow religion but without any real understanding of the spirituality (i.e. mechanically following rites for material ends without any higher consideration) return to a human body through the pitriyana and that people who don’t have religion, who have no spiritual knowledge and who don’t practice any rites, meditation etc are reborn in lower incarnations such as beasts etc. They also say that the jiva transmigrates into the existence that its mind is drawn to. I view these not as contradictions but as describing various aspects of the same process, i.e. that participation in religion and especially in spiritual knowledge draws one to knowledge of higher things, with one receiving a future transmigration that is fitting to that, while people who are entirely devoid of spiritual knowledge and religious practice live and think in more animalistic-like ways, and receive fitting transmigrations accordingly.
>>18132195
> Sounds a lot like Buddhist afterlife, but with Platonic metaphysics
That process is described in the Brihadaranyaka and Chandogya Upanishads which predate both Buddhism and Plato/Socrates, it’s quite possible and even likely I would surmise that the Upanishads influenced the formation of Buddhism, it would appear to be a much more speculative and tenuous connection to say they also influenced Plato although it’s not impossible.
>>18132313
Guenon understands salvation as just being admittance to the Brahmaloka, liberation is different from salvation and from his view one could be saved (until a new universe arises and the Brahmaloka ends) but not liberated, and one could also be saved and then liberated while inside the Brahmaloka.

>>18132593
>it would appear to be a much more speculative and tenuous connection to say they also influenced Plato although it’s not impossible.
This book postulates that it does.

>>18132670
I’ve heard good things about it, it’s on my reading list

it's retarded crypto-buddhism

guenon was zonked out on opium and hash

>>18132313
Guenon actually hates 'salvation' and doesn't respect most religious people (ie, the ones who aren't crypto-buddhist like him). So much for non-duality.

>>18133463
It's worth mentioning that in many instances Ibn Arabi flatly contradicts Guenon's dogma. Guenon actually didn't read much of Ibn Arabi.

Guenon considered Advaita Vedanta to be the closest extant tradition, the most similar, to the 'Primordial Tradition'.
It is the rubric by which every other religion is measured by him.
When you read his works you will see how any conflict of doctrine between one tradition and Advaita Vedanta is resolved by defaulting to the Vedantist position and claiming that the other doctrine has drifted away from Tradition into idiosyncrasy.

You can agree with this or not, but it should be obvious enough at least from Geunonfag only ever really referring to Shankara in his arguments with people what tradition is privileged in Guenon's thought. Especially considering how whenever another tradition is brought up it is only to show how some aspect of it is in accordance or not with Shankara. Never do you see a Vedantic point concede to any other.

>>18134325
>Guenon considered Advaita Vedanta to be the closest extant tradition, the most similar, to the 'Primordial Tradition'.
This isn't true though

>>18134446
It absolutely is.

>>18134446
He's right. Now tell the folks at home about Guenon's embarrassingly retarded king of the world theory.

>>18131290
>How do they reconcile the doctrine of heaven and hell and the doctrine of reincarnation?
I reject the dichotomy

>>18135925
Valid answer. Buddha describes different types of rebirth as simple "heaven" or "hell" simply to denote the content of the birth. Additionally, heaven and hell, which are fairly unique to Abrahamic religions, can be simply viewed as exoteric facets to make it easier to prevent a severely decayed society (which the late Roman Empire surely was).

Bump

>>18132292
What happens to the ego, or our current experience of consciousness? Is it also continuous, will I remember being "me" after I die? If not, what's the difference with oblivion?

>>18131290
According to Guenon there is no reincarnation, and hell/heaven are states of being not physical places.
Also, this is a related article from a "traditionalist" author:
http://elkorg-projects.blogspot.com/2005/05/ananda-k-coomaraswamy-who-is-satan-and.html?m=1

Good thread

>>18136070
There's no difference. That's why it's crypto-Buddhism.

>>18136070
>What happens to the ego, or our current experience of consciousness?
Consciousness continues because Consciousness is uncreated, eternal, immortal. The ego doesn't continue on intact to the next stage of transmigration, at most there can be subtle traces that inhere in the subtle body from one life to the next but that's not one's ego continuing on, a new ego is still formed in the next body or realm.
>Is it also continuous, will I remember being "me" after I die?
Possibly if you ascend to a heavenly realm called the Brahmaloka, where one can access divine powers, but normally if you just transmigrate into another body of a living organism the memory does not continue
>If not, what's the difference with oblivion?
In oblivion something is destroyed, but Consciousness is never destroyed, memory is something different from Consciousness and so just because Consciousness passes on without memory that is not equal to oblivion because you (Consciousness) are already immortal and undecaying.
>>18136275
Nonsense, it's Buddhism that teaches a nihilistic annihilation, while Vedanta doesn't and instead says that the soul enjoys eternal plenitude.

>>18135837
Had a brief look into it and I just keep getting his collected works. What's the actual theory?

>>18136426
Hollow earth with ascended masters secretly ruling from it.

>>18136422
tl;dr you're annihilated
Disingenuous bullshit through and through, all these religions are life denying garbage.

>>18136449
>life denying
Vedanta is probably the most life affirming school there is, more so than Nietzsche's supposed eternal return. If anything it offers a non-insane version of the eternal return without being so resolutely and irrationally attached to the supremacy of becoming, like Nietzsche was.

>>18136431
Was this guy just ripping off Blavatsky?

>>18135837
>>18136431
>>18136470
Have you at least read The King of the World? Guenon never said that there is literally a man in the hollow earth controlling everything, is just symbolism.

>>18136426
>>18136531
Guenon LITERALLY believes there's a midget in the hollow center of the earth controlling everything.

It's NOT a metaphor. Guenonians don't like to talk about this because it's so retarded. Guenon's Indian friends broke off all contact with him after he published The King of the World.

>>18136470
Pretty much. He's just more conservative in that he believes you need to LARP through religious rituals of some kind. The essence remains the same. Their sources were very similar too.

>>18136638
>Guenon LITERALLY believes there's a midget in the hollow center of the earth controlling everything.
post quote

>>18136460
Keep telling yourself that. This is the biggest illusion of them all...far, far worse than 'maya.'

>>18136070
>Is it also continuous, will I remember being "me" after I die?
Why would even want to? What would be the point? If at the moment of death you are still attached to 'you' then you'll just keep coming back. The second before I die I'm going to imagine my soul as a ball of light shooting upwards with zero attachments to this realm. From what I've read this is a good way to escape the reincarnation cycle.

>>18136655
Chekd

>>18136663
So it's no different than oblivion. Why do retarded advaitins think they're different from Buddhists again? Because they call the 'void' the 'all'? That succeeds in refuting Buddhism? What a joke.

>>18136663
>why would I even want to exist/have an identity?
ok nihilist

>>18136638
> Guenon's Indian friends broke off all contact with him after he published The King of the World.

Lmao, source?

>>18131290
idk fellas, I think I'm gonna confirm it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQOvpLUoYxw&ab_channel=%CE%93%CE%B5%CE%B8%CF%83%CE%B7%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%AE

>>18132292
Ok it's even more moronic than reincarnation then

>>18136833
This is widely known. Not hard to find. It still remains a mystery as to who it was that broke off contact, but they are the ones who taught Guenon vedanta, so it must have been pretty cringe.

>>18132593
>>That process is described in the Brihadaranyaka and Chandogya Upanishads which predate both Buddhism and Plato/Socrates, it’s quite possible and even likely I would surmise that the Upanishads influenced the formation of Buddhism,
weird how the buddhists mention the vedas and never the upanishads

I'd be more inclined to trust Bob Monroe's books as a source on what happens after death than the endless philosophical musings of the traditionalists.
One has actual experience, the others were mostly larping. And no I'm not baiting, but this will probably make a lot of you seethe because you only care about the aesthetics of your chosen "tradition" and not the actual truth

>>18136682
From what I've learned so far (which isn't a lot) the All encompasses both the material and immaterial realms. Mom dualism seems to believe there's a Ln even deeper essence but I'm only halfway thru this book. I was sure the All was just that, the totality. But it seems there's another layer.
>>18136685
I want to be reabsorbed into the Pleroma which is perfect understanding, why would u want to taint that with the insubstantial recollections if a vile 3d meme species.

>>18136965
>has actual experience of being dead
>wrote a book afterwards
?

>>18136972
Because you said "I" want to be reabsorbed. If your identity is gone there is no "I"

>>18136972
>advaitin admits that he hates life and existence
kek, as espected

>>18136965
No, I agree with you.

>>18136972
>I want to be reabsorbed into the Pleroma which is perfect understanding, why would u want to taint that with the insubstantial recollections if a vile 3d meme species.

loser

>>18136965
what do his books say?

>>18137106
Too long to explain, but in a nutshell, Earth essentially serves as a kind of school/farm (not in the ominous gnostic sense, though) and death is not the end of phenomenal experience. Higher planes exist and can be temporarily accessed while you're alive, and the soul ascends to those planes after death, but it's not as simple as what you'd get from a religious cosmology, there seem to be many variables and beings at play.
Here's one of the books, it's short enough to read in a couple hours http://blog.hasslberger.com/docs/Far_Journeys.pdf

>>18135476
If it were he would have written that

>>18137136
thx bro <3

>>18137146
He did. And it can be inferred by what he doesn't say as much as what he does.

>>18136953
Upanishads aren't separate from the Vedas