/lit/ - Literature

>>18265881
By pointing out the fact Nietzsche claiming God is dead led him to absurd conclusions he was unable to escape from with his "uberman" cope. There's a reason earlier philosophers rejected atheism and it's because it's a complete dead end. There is absolutely no cogent way to argue that people shouldn't just get high on heroin all day long in an atheistic universe and that's a problem they'll never be able to fix. No purpose means no ethical duties and no ethical duties means I don't even have to give a shit whats true since the idea the truth matters is now a subjective claim on the level of Inception being the best movie ever made.

Can't die if you never lived in the first place.

>>18265881
>led him to absurd conclusions he was unable to escape from with his "uberman" cope.

what the hell are you babbling about
absurd conclusions like what?

>>18265913
>There is absolutely no cogent way to argue that people shouldn't just get high on heroin all day long in an atheistic universe and that's a problem they'll never be able to fix.
Name a reason why you shouldn't get high on heroin all day in a theistic universe.

>>18265881
>God is alive
done

>>18265937
The usual ones that come from denying intrinsic telos in reality. He can't justify why we should give a shit about anything at all. His solution, the "Uberman" is utterly laughable. Worth noting Nietzsche himself was an utterly pathetic cuck and the furthest thing from his supposed ideal of a man who makes his own meaning. He was the slave all along.

Leave Nietzsche to me.

>>18265946
because you'll eventually die or kill hurt someone else

>>18265962
That isn't the case in an atheistic universe?

>>18265913
You sound like jay dyer
>in an atheist society why can’t I be god emperor dude

>>18265963
yes because if life dont matter i wouldn't feel bad for killing you

>>18265946
>Name a reason why you shouldn't get high on heroin all day in a theistic universe.
Because its intrinsically immoral and it's irrational to act against your own best interests

>>18265966
You need a skydaddy to tell you that killing someone is bad? There was actually a thread about this yesterday: is what god commands good because he commands it, or does god command it because it is good?

>>18265975
again, is that not the case in an atheistic universe?

>>18265913
>this post
>accusing others of coping

Lol

>>18265980
>again, is that not the case in an atheistic universe?
No? How can something be intrinsically immoral in a universe without telos? Keep in mind here the key term is intrinsic, subjective morality is a cope. The morality of the action lies in the action itself, it's not a determination made by a mind. An action is moral or immoral irrespective of any determination by any individual much like Pi is always 3.14... irrespective of whether anyone disagrees. The value of Pi is baked into the fabric of reality based on what a circle is and morality is the same way.

Obviously atheists disagree and if morality is a subjective judgement then there's no rational reason why getting high all day is wrong.

This is not controversial and is a well known and unfortunate consequence of a worldview that denies telos imbued into the universe by a creator.

>>18265980
>There was actually a thread about this yesterday: is what god commands good because he commands it, or does god command it because it is good?
Neither. God is goodness itself. Actions that move something towards God are "good" in that they're a motion towards the Platonic form of goodness. Actions that move away from God are "bad" since they are a motion away from goodness. Goodness is not something that exists apart from God, they're synonymous so you're basically asking "Is what God command God because God commands it".

>>18265980
yes and no, i don't need one if i assume that hurting someone is bad because when i get hurt i feel bad i guess that's your argument but then again I feel nothing killing bugs and people in my dreams which makes me believe killing restraint is purely psychological, and as a self conscious animal I'm able to bypass my psychological barriers if i want to , unless I'm assured killing is inherently evil i could kill you without feeling any guilt at all

>>18266003
I see you went the midwit route. Explain how an individual can actually 'move' and 'motion' away from god, when god himself is described as omnipresent. Shouldn't everything be good then, including, by the way, getting high on heroin all day?

>>18266028
because there's also evil

>>18266028
>Shouldn't everything be good then
Yes in so far as it follows it's logos and performs the purpose for which it has existence. Obviously getting high is not fulfilling that logos and is evil.

>>18265997
>The morality of the action lies in the action itself
The morality of an action lies with its consequences. There is no such thing as an inherently moral/immoral action.

>>18266028
>I see you went the midwit route. Explain how an individual can actually 'move' and 'motion' away from god, when god himself is described as omnipresent
Did you just call me a midwit then go on to think I'm talking about "movement toward God" in physical terms as if I'm talking about literally walking towards God in 3D space?

Anon...Your philosophy reps...

>>18266050
>as if I'm talking about literally walking towards God in 3D space
Yes, that's usually what motion entails. What did you mean by it, then?

>>18266059
Motion towards God means conforming yourself to the divine Logos. Motion toward the good is a movement in that it draws your closer to the platonic form / divine ideas that your existence is based on.

>>18266036
>>18266041
How convenient. God is good and he created the world and is present everywhere in the world, but at the same time there is evil in the world. Do you seriously not see this as contradictory?

>>18266075
What is the Fall of man, Alex.

>>18266079
This is the fall of man.

>>18266090
>skydaddy
>midwit
>this image pulled out from 2006 level athiest understanding of prot doctrin
I don't mean to he rude but, how old are you?

>>18266099
You're the one spouting semitic fairy tales in response to logical contradictions.

>>18266107
> no u

>>18266108
>

>>18265881
>>god is dead
and risen on the third day.

>>18266121
allegedly

>>18266123
Your mom sucks a mean dick.

allegedly

I would use presuppositional transcendental argumentation for God to show that the Orthodox Christian worldview is the ONLY worldview that has an ACCOUNT for and JUSTIFICATION for the use of transcendentals such as logic and numbers. The atheistic worldview does not even have the POSSIBILITY of knowledge and will eventually collapse into extreme scepticism and SOLIPSISM.
Watch the DYER / DILLAHUNTY debate
>PROTIP: DYER WON IT

>>18265881
I fight it with faith

>>18266130
You've conceded this argument and admitted that I am correct by all accounts, while you yourself was totally ignorant about everything.

allegedly

>>18265881
>that
>rhetoric

This board has gone to shit. OP has barely read anything related to the topic and no doubt most posters in the thread haven't either.

Study philosophy from the 16th century up to the 20th and you should be able to see how Nietzsche's descriptive (not normative) statement that God is dead is a rather obvious and not even novel observation of western civilization, the point being that nihilism has overtaken the west and the religious authorities of the past no longer convince us.

What makes the statement particularly unique in Nietzsche's case is that he had a very thorough understanding and diagnosis of nihilism: namely, he understood that the problem of meaning or lack thereof is an artificial construct of Greek rationalism / Christianity. In other words, the world is meaningless only because we have come to measure its value in the form of God's existence and now that God is dead, we no longer know how to live with ourselves (which is another way to say that the world isn't inherently meaningless and that the idea of God has corrupted life).

There is no fighting this unless you want to be some idealist or postmodernist huckster denying history and the world around you.

God doesn't die if you stop believing in him, sorry retards

>>18265881
there are core things that are shared by all spiritual traditions. at least some sort of bind on sexuality is universal. boil it down to universals.

>>18266139
>Watch the DYER
No.

>>18265980
>You need a skydaddy to tell you that killing someone is bad?
Yes. And so do you.

>>18265913
>no cogent way to argue that people shouldn't just get high on heroin all day long in an atheistic universe
Read Nietzsche

>>18267414
>And so do you.
No, I just need good survival skills and goals of my own. You know, like protecting my loved ones, wanting to propagate my genes, not wanting to be imprisoned all my life, wanting to observe nature so as to create better art, and so on.

>>18265881
>That's crazy lol

>>18265913
Religion doesn't fix this problem. You just claim that your moral system is objective while you haven't actually established that. There are massive disagreements even within the same sect of the same religion and people pick and choose what to believe in. Where is the distinction exactly?

>>18265881

Daily reminder that Nietzsche wasn't refering to God in the literal sense, but as in the principle upon which morality and western civilization is founded.

>>18267446
>brainlet can't fathom that value without god is arbitrary

>>18265881
Just think in qubits.

>>18266009
>unless I'm assured killing is inherently evil i could kill you without feeling any guilt at all
Crime and Punishment challenges this notion

>>18268012
>value without god is arbitrary
4u

>>18265881
By finding new gods.

>>18266075
If there was no evil in the world the world would be God and nothing besides God would exist.

>>18268035
Once again, is it valuable because god likes it, or does god like valuable things?

>>18268139
meant for >>18268012

>>18268139
The Logos is Gods command is God. Someone else already said this ITT.

>>18268175
Yes, and it was as ridiculous back then as it is now.

>>18268192
Cope, brainlet.

God died in the Bible 4 times. What's one more?

>>18266003
Appears very circular :/

>>18268175
If logos is God, why worship it? It's not something private to anyone, not something anyone has full control or grasp of, not something one can separate from, not something that transforms by knowing it, not something one can achieve and be proud of. At most, it makes sense to respect it.

Read on the fall of the devil you retards. People are evil when they use their talents for something outside of their purpose, thereby corrupting both.

>...Anonymous
>05/19/21(Wed)03:06:09 No.18268200
>>>18268192
>Cope, brainlet.

>>18268232
Isn't there supposed to be an omnipotent, omniscient being in your lore? What is he doing when evil occurs?

>>18268246
he punished the devil, go read the essay, its like 25 pages.

>>18268209
??

>>18268259
Retributive justice? No, I mean why doesn't he prevent it in the first place? It's like he's never heard of being proactive.

>>18268214
>At most, it makes sense to respect it.
That's why the Old Testament teaches fear of God. In the New Testament Jesus teaches that all people are forgiven for their sins by God and the pathway to enlightenment is to accept His forgiveness. Technically all religious practice outside of accepting Christ as the savior is unnecessary as far as "worship" goes.

>>18265881
You don't.

>>18268279
answered in the essay, go read it

>>18265881
>retorics

>>18268286
You've read it, right? Explain it in your own words. Enlighten me.

>>18268314
Yes, no

>>18268283
>In the New Testament Jesus teaches that all people are forgiven for their sins by God and the pathway to enlightenment is to accept His forgiveness.
None of this is necessary. There is no original sin, no need of a savior. There is no way to separate from / rise above the logos, and no way for anyone to divine it through absolute knowledge and achieve special status within it as a result. The entire system was obviously built just for constructing Plato's republic.

>>18268317
I accept your concession.

>>18268324
blah blah blah, I made a thread about this two nights ago, find it in 4plebs

>>18268331
Yep, concession accepted.

>>18268335
nope

>>18268338
yeah

>>18268343
not at all

>>18268345
Absolutely.

>>18268354
this is what you should have said:
>You have responded so satisfactorily to what I asked that I cannot waver as to the truth of what you say or the rigour of your proof.

>>18268362
In your dreams, alongside the trinity and the resurrection.

>>18268368
your dreams are the collective unconscious drawing you to the emperor and child archetypes aka God and Jesus

Everybody ITT just shut up and watch jay dyer let’s see if you can refute tag

>>18268372
lmao, and Nietzche philosophy is reconcilable with christianity. What else?

>>18268404
the essay that you could have finished by now

>god is dead
>OMG BUDDHISM IS SO FUCKING BASED GUYS

>>18268446
That essay? Refuted by Deleuze in his seminal work 'Anti-Oedipus: schizophrenia and capitalism'. Wait, you want me to explain how he refutes the essay? No. Read it yourself lol.

>>18268467
No, I do not wish that, for I know you are wrong already. The LORD said this.

>>18265946
cuz u go to hell

>>18268483
Hang on, I'm getting a revelation from the One True Lord...he said you are wrong. Totally wrong. Sucks to be you, buddy.

>>18268457
Yes.
>Buddhism
>God
Want to know how I know you’re a pseud?

>>18268503
Nope, I am the LORD's champion. You are wrong

>>18265881
But my God has Jewish retcon power in the second edition of Sand Nigger adventures he was brought back from the dead by the writers so the death isn't canon

>>18265964
Alex Malpass refuted it.

>>18269297
Meant for >>18268373

>>18269297
And how did he do that my good sir

>>18265960
holy based

>>18269698
If you want to see the short version of his refutation here: https://youtu.be/-4PipfxAVAQ
You should also watch his debates with Jay Dyer, Matt Slick and Darth Dawkins.

>>18265881
God is immortal. It is us falling further away from God that leads to this rhetoric.

>>18269803
T-b-h Dyer’s debate with Malpass just seemed like Jay doing a lot of name dropping and dancing around the argument, and funnily enough he never really puts his argument into a syllogism. If so it would look like this:
>logic and other universals exist
>god can prove it and atheism can’t
>therefore atheism can’t use it
>so an atheistic worldview is incoherent
>only an orthodox Christian worldview is coherent
>so god exists
Tbh some sort of classical argument from contingency or morality would probably be more effective. He touts it as if it is literally unfalsifiable though.

>>18265913
>There is absolutely no cogent way to argue that people shouldn't just get high on heroin all day long in an atheistic universe and that's a problem they'll never be able to fix.

Simple. They'll run out of heroin.

>>18265916
A defib wouldn't work. He argues that we killed him, presumably with some sort of weapon, while defibs only work if somebody is in fibrillation. The only scenario where we kill God and a defib might work is if, to kill God, we applied a current during ventricle contraction and caused a V-fib.

>>18267599
Read Aquinas

>>18265946
it is an excess

>>18265997
>An action is moral or immoral irrespective of any determination by any individual much like Pi is always 3.14... irrespective of whether anyone disagrees
Morals differ between denominations and individual Christians, especially prots.

>>18265960
Based. Imagine the debate they would have.

>>18265966
Why wouldn't you have a more experience in a theistic universe?

>>18265997
Having an experience of morality does not prove that objective moral values exist. We oppose those things because we evolved in groups and thus need to cooperate and we evolved to care about our own self interests.

>>18265913
>I can't find anything besides heroin or God that makes me happy or brings me meaning
>therefor if god does not exist my only other option to satisfy my mediocre hedonistic desires would be straight heroin

You've done nothing but expose yourself and your own mediocrity with you post.

>>18265966
>I'm a psychopath who needs threats of divine punishment to not act barbaric

>>18271903
This.

>>18271903
Yes.

>>18265881
https://youtu.be/R0KTUAi3uiM
You don't beat pathos with logos.

>>18270107
This. The constant name dropping was pretty cringe.

>>18265997
The mind is itself objective. Morality is an objective property of the mind in the same way that Pi is an objective property of the ratio in a circle.

>>18271903
yes and you too, your claims or not are refuted by your instinct to survive and hurt back when someone hurts you

>>18265960
I want to fill her with my atheist seed multiple times and teach our children that institutionalized circumcision is wrong.

>>18273633
>institutionalized circumcision is wrong.
She would agree with you

>>18265960
This. Imagine how much of an homosexual homunculus you need to be to be so thoroughly btfo by a woman.

Read kierkegaard and become a knight of faith. Faith is the only thing we’ve got in this world.

>>18266059
He means in likeness through action with the archetype of "God", and his will.
The word "sin" specifically means to "miss the mark", to avoid your duty of fulfilling the archetype of which you reside as a potential expression of.
This is why Homosexuality is a sin, Transgenderism, needless violence, endless drug use, etc.
You are not fulfilling the potential of achieving likeness with the ideal archetype of yourself, you are "missing the mark"

>>18265881
It's blatantly false, humans are more superstitious and ritualistic than ever.

>>18275711
>humans are more superstitious and ritualistic than ever.
Objectively false.