/lit/ - Literature

*moggs everyone*

>>18524882
Baudelaire
>>18524892
still Baudelaire, Hölderlin and Novalis are better than Goethe when it comes to poetry

>>18524921
The question was who was more important, not who was better

>>18524933
ah, still Baudelaire

>>18524892
This is true, but I don't think his technical form was particularly influential, at least outside of Germany.

>>18524952
Whitman and Baudelaire also weren't that influential outside of their country, Whitman less than Baudelaire. Goethe influenced some other European authors like Byron.

>>18524892
XVIII century poet
>>18524882
Baudelaire. Thinking otherwise is a highly delusional anglo cope.

>>18524966
>Whitman and Baudelaire also weren't that influential outside of their country,
What about in the next century? Goethe (though he was the greater artist) never reached anything near this level of technical influence on other poets.

>>18524882
Contrarian answer: Baudelaire
Actual Answer: Whitman.

He literally influenced more people, and might be the best modernist poet
>Inb4 eliot or yeats

Not that many people even know who Charles Baudelaire was and that’s probably a good thing.

>>18525254
Delusional

I like baudelaire better
His poetry is more interesting to me then whitman because I'm boring

>>18524882
Whitman. By far.
>>18524921
No. Ridiculous.
>>18524966
Completely wrong.

>>18525579
I'm European and haven't even heard of Whitman before this thread. Americans have no relevance in literature

>>18525599
I'm not European or a Burger and my friend you are just retarded.

>>18524882
The part in Hamsun's The Cultural Life of Modern America where he writes about Whitman is probably the funniest text I've ever read.

>>18524882
I prefer Whitman but if I were French I would probably say Baudelaire.

Whitman was more innovative - with regard to poetic form in particular; those sprawling free verse lines and his catalogue technique are great; who needs a regular meter anyway? - and he was more original.

Without Whitman there would be no genuine American poetry; everyone who came before him just imitated Bristih poets, and the Fireside Poets were just too conventional. Whitman paved the way, and he is probably still the most American of all poets.

As a German, I have to stress the greatness and importance of Hölderlin among nineteenth century poets!

>>18525735
I have Hyperion. Should I just go for it? Anything else to read up before it?

>>18525744
Hyperion is beautiful; it is the only novel written by Hölderlin. I can recommend his longer hymns in particular:
Brot und Wein, Der Rhein, Friedensfeier, Patmos . . . Hölderlin is the pinnacle of both classicism and romanticism in German literature, and he didn't really belong to either literary movement. He is a difficult poet, and his language is just astonishing.

Be prepared to read up on a lot of Greek classicism; you will encounter a lot of allusions that will remain completely obscure otherwise . . .

>>18525783
Thanks for that, I've only read Novalis' Hymns to the Night and enjoyed that, so will definitely begin reading this. I'm studying classics so hopefully it won't be too unfamiliar but its always fun to pick up on more Greek references.

>>18524882
Why do you faggots love dick-measuring contests?

>>18525496
Who is studied in college? And who is only read by well read individuals? I didn't say Whitman was a better poet, I just said he is more important/influential.

>>18526106
Of course burgers are only gonna read their poets because they're monoglots. But let's not forget that Paris was the capital of the XIX century.

>>18525735
This. Everyone else in this thread didn't read the op. He said who is more influential, not who is better. Or maybe frogs just infiltrated this thread.

>>18526124
Lol, do you also think Rimbaud was more influential?

>>18525579
Are you going to back up your points or are you going to keep being an annoyingly laconic bitch ass nigga

>>18526153
Not him, but Rimbaud might just be. In any case, both Whitman and Baudelaire (and Rimbaud) were supremely influential and important poets. Take one of them out of the equation and poetry would not be the same.

>>18524882
Baudelaire. Whitman sucks and no one cared except other Americans. Baudelaire impacted whole continents. The real debate is between Poe or Baudelaire. Whitman has no say in this.
>>18524892
Hardly an estimable poet.

>>18525254
>Actual Answer: Whitman.
>He literally influenced more people, and might be the best modernist poet
Except Whitman wasn't a modernist, retard. He predated modernism by a whole century. Fucking idiot.

>>18525735
>and he was more original.
This is debatable tho. I'd argue that Baudelaire and Whitman were equally original, but in terms of formal innovation Whitman obviously gets the upper hand (although Baudelaire might have been more experimental on a technical level, in that he used a lot of poetic forms). Who was more influential? Whitman, certainly, but Baudelaire is not far behind. Who was the better poet qua poet? I'd say Baudelaire. Still, both of them are great poets and their poetics are widely different, and so is their legacy.

>>18526666
evil quads confirming

>>18526904
>Who was more influential? Whitman, certainly, but Baudelaire is not far behind.
Cap. Baudelaire was the most influential poet of that era. You can see his influence across all of Europe and in the Americas. Whitman influenced other Americans but he didn't really leave the Anglosphere. I can pretty much tell from your post that you're a monoglot and relatively unread.

>>18524892
wasn't Faust published in 1789?

>>18526666
You Europeans have such a strange obsession with Poe. He isn't that great, especially not as a poet.

>>18527005
>Cap. Baudelaire was the most influential poet of that era.
You're correct, he was the most influential of that era, and he's basically the lynchpin between Romanticism and Modernism in Europe. However, in the 20th century and afterwards, Whitman's influence increased exponentially at home and abroad. It's not only other English-speaking poets from the United States that he influenced. His influence on Spain, Portugal and Iberoamerica was enormous. Pretty much all poets after him greatly admired him and even translated him, from Rubén Darío and Borges to Pessoa, León Felipe and Pablo de Rokha. Hell, Whitman even had an impact writers from Japan; Soseki himself wrote one of the first articles on him. To claim that Whitman "didn't really leave the Anglosphere" just goes to show who's the real monoglot and who has read "relatively little" here. This is not to say, obviously, that Baudelaire has lost any of his influence, or that he's a minor poet in comparison to Whitman. Not at all.

>>18527171
Whitman's influence on Japan: https://whitmanarchive.org/criticism/current/encyclopedia/entry_508.html
Whitman's influence on China: https://ir.uiowa.edu/wwqr/vol3/iss4/2/
Idiots claiming Whitman was only ever read by other Americans should pick up a book next time.

>>18524892
*blocks your path*

>>18524882
Right for Europe, left for Ametica

Baudelaire's poetry is actually good, unlike Whitman's

Byron

bump

What an unbelievably retarded dichotomy. Baudelaire is just a persona based on a weak misreading of Poe. He is not fit to go up against Whitman even though Whitman is not the best.

>>18525254
Whitman influenced hacks.

>>18524882
Baudelaire hadn't had that much of influence, he sure was widely read and appreciated, and he's now unavoidable, but he somehow started and ended his own school, and those who tried to expand on it just passed as imitators. He's like Céline in this respect. Later development of poetry were foremost about distorting the form, something Baudelaire was rather conservative about: classical language, few tricks such as enjambements, etc.
>>18528638
Poe isn't half as deep as Baudelaire. The flower of evil are a meditation on evil from evil's point of view, without partaking in evil. Poe is sublime, but he's simply a gothic lyric.

>>18526672
retard take here. Whitman was the first major poet to write in free verse. you're an idiot. read moar, faggot.

>>18524882
so far in this thread i have seen anon link articles of Whitman's influence on the world. Can you Baudelairefags at least post some source that he is more influential besides just trust me bro?

>>18529333
They probably could, but can you expect them to do that when they claim that Whitman never ever left the Anglosphere? Bunch of idiots itt.

>>18525599
>didn't know who Walt Whitman was
>Proceeds to state who does or does not have relevance in literature

>>18529333
>muh source
KYS>>>

>>18528638
>Baudelaire is just a persona based on a weak misreading of Poe.
The guy who translated all of Poe's fiction and most of his criticism has a misreading of Poe and you who has only read The Raven has the right one? ah yeah...

>>18524882
Baudelaire.

>>18524966
>Whitman and Baudelaire also weren't that influential outside of their country

Are you joking?
Are you?

>not a single consensus in this thread
Thanks a lot guys.

>>18524882
Whitman influenced so many poets it's crazy, Pessoa (My favourite) wrote in Whitman's style for 2 heteronyms, all the american poets, pound could never escape him. There is also Pablo Naruda (argued as the greatest 20th century poet) and Borges who cite him as a big influece.

How do I get into whitman

>>18531629
by reading him

>>18531687
I did years ago

>>18524882
To be honest it's Poe since Baudelaire and all symbolists were inspired by him

>>18531703
read leaves of grass original and then the deathbed

>>18531625
Baudelaire and the poets he spawned were a far bigger influence on Pessoa than Whitman ever was.

Importance of both is exaggerated. Whitman's influence on American poetry I think is overblown. Frost, Ransom, Eliot, Pound, Tate, Ashbury and others don't really owe that much to Whitman none of them really reminds me of him the way even modern poets will sometimes remind you of wordsworth or shelley.

Baudelaire's inlfluence too is overblown, partly because most of it comes from his having translated Poe, who I think was the much more original mind. Poe had an immense influence on the symbolists and the modernists by way of other authors.

>>18525735
>Without Whitman there would be no genuine American poetry
I dont understand this at all. Emerson was a great poet and his poetry was completely American. It's nothing like British poetry.

>>18524966
>Whitman and Baudelaire also weren't that influential outside of their country

no fucking way you're not talking out of your ass, specially about baudelaire

>>18533739
>Baudelaire and the poets he spawned w
Most of the poets he "spawned" were by way of Poe

>>18528638
how do you misread a retard?

Whitman was more influential, Baudelaire was so much better. I can't say which one was more important.

Baudelaire. More influential and also better connected to the future.
Whitmann is nice and has a deep conenction with America's soul and democracy spirit, but Baudelaire not only is a great poet, with a dedicated and delicated work of literature, he also understood better the phenomenom of modernity and it's continutiy through time. Specially because he was european and wether americans like it or not, Europe is the continent that produced the most important ideas of the XXth century. And also, he had the disgrace of being born french, so that help'd him too in order to influentiate more people