/lit/ - Literature

OP you just posted cringe, hopefully you were being ironic otherwise that post is so embarrassing.

>>18740975
I'm not actually skilled enough to express myself without irony.

>>18740975
You made a post with an interesting observation, one that I tend to agree with, and your only reply so far is from a pseud that immediately attacks you personally. Posters like that are here to ruin the board and shid up threads.

>>18740980
You always have to be ironic, cynical, and lazily self-deprecating. Never sincere about how you feel, because that’s cringe. Only losers actually express their true thoughts and feelings. Duh.

>>18740975
irony will burn itself out, eventually.

>>18741004
The chad winners are the ones who are genuine about their feelings and aren't afraid to show them. Only burn out losers hide behind irony, aka, most young people today.

>>18741010
Pseuds going to seethe, they hate the based

>>18740975
Can you explain a little to me where he gets into this and how? I made it to page 200 or so of Infinite Jest and threw in the towel. Does he use these themes in his shorter fiction and etc?

>>18740998
I suspect it’s because irony allows one to insulate the ego from attacks. People aren’t honest about what they feel, they never have to own-up to any of their stupid ideas or faults if they can just play it off as snarky humor

>>18740975
Seeing this stupid twat with his head bandana makes me wish I could cut his throat. Too bad he's already dead.

I think it actually takes a lot of self confidence to express how you feel because of the fear of getting shut down or made fun of. The people on this board are the most likely to fit the attitude you described because they were probably hurt as most people are at a younger age emotionally and never recovered. especially on a website with so many spergs this post is doomed to get a ton of replies that only legitimize that point.

>>18740975
Blame the internet. And blame multiculturalism. Nobody knows if what they say will be accepted or rejected because everything is fucked together and people who agree and disagree on fundamental topics are encouraged to integrate like the mixed particles of oil and water.

>>18741021
He mostly attacks post modernism in his essays which one could argue is just artistic use of irony

>>18741032
>Blame the internet. And blame multiculturalism. Nobody knows if what they say will be accepted or rejected because everything is fucked together and people who agree and disagree on fundamental topics are encouraged to integrate like the mixed particles of oil and water.
you make it sound like its not the most homogeneous thing ever created by history (no pun intended)

>>18741038
Can you provide me with somewhere to begin? I really did not like his prose in IJ

>>18741025
This is the cycle:
>someone self-expresses(in whatever way)
>someone gets rebuked
>someone does not move on from that incident
These people carry around their programming and inflict it on others, culling the heard of people willing to put up with the attacks once self-expressing outside of the acceptable, mainstream-promoted norms.
Think Seth Rogen ever had to wonder if his book is good? He was provided an entire team to write it with him, favourable reviews purchased, an entire marketing arm. He thinks he's a great writer.
Meanwhile:
>guy posts on /lit/ his work or whatever
>formerly butthurt pseud inflicts same attack on that guy as from the incident he/she experienced many years ago
>guy either shrinks from the thread and pseuds go smug.jpg
or
>guy spergs out and defends his shit, gets dogpiled by crabs and made an example of, further culling the organic cultural exchange this place could and should be
If you're part of the mainstream, there is no fear of getting shut down. Nobody traditionally published is taking any sort of risks or being subversive at all. This is partly why we have so many reboots and re-hashing of prior shit because there is nothing new bubbling up from culture, because culture doesn't exist outside of globohomo in the west.

>>18740975
>Sincerity...must come back

I wish I could be a happy enthusiastic kid again instead of having to worry about being cringe all the time. It's all so tiresome

>>18741071
the irony of irony is that people are much more sensitive to attacks on their ego / being perceived as cringe than they probably would be if they just wore their heart on their sleeve

>>18741024
>irony

To cringe or not to cringe

>>18741021
>>18741038
and you didn't really expand on his understanding of irony

>>18741071
Why worry?

>>18740975
This is a midwit-tier take, metairony and post-irony is the shit, you can be 100% sincere all the time, while presenting your views as ironic, thus you can be completely honest without much consequence, if you cannot see this as liberating, anon, that just means you are garbage at it. I pick women up with rape jokes. I ask neglecting mothers to shut their annoying children up before I devour them. If your tonality is on point, and you don't look like a freak, you are invulnerable. People meaningful to you will know you are sincere, people who aren't will think you are funny. Pull the blinds up and gaze at the sun, anon. Even at my workplace I can be (albeit a bit more restrained) HONEST with my boss, and I work in a bank's risk management team, the driest fucking place on earth.

anyone have any David foster Wallace feet pics, he has no wikifeet page

>>18741131
So the irony is a hedge if bad consequences happen?

>>18741163
>bro is protecting his fee fees

>>18741172
Is this an ironic reply to avoid giving an actual reply?

>>18740975
I see the current irony fad as more of an intellectual and cultural arms race than a regression into emotional armor like most of these posters are describing.
While irony may have an insulating effect on the ego, so do many other traditional mental strategies like delusion and narcissism. It's possible to be entirely genuine and still narcissistic and self-absorbed to the point of immunity from critique. It's also possible to be none of those things and achieve ego resilience via selective apathy. I would wager that all humans since the beginning of time have employed some such strategy or another, to varying degrees, to insulate their ego; some of which in fact seems necessary to maintain the level of self-confidence required for healthy levels of risk-taking and outgoing behavior. I don't think the current generation is uniquely lacking in self-confidence or uniquely afraid of emotional vulnerability to such an extent that it would justify the theory that irony culture must be a novel response to such deficits. If anything, they seem uniquely receptive to the concept of embracing emotional vulnerability as part of the new "mental health and wellbeing" fad that's going on.
If you want a better theory, consider that irony is a form of utterance that postulates a double audience, consisting of one party that hears and does not understand, and another party that hears and is aware of both the additional meaning and of the outsiders' incomprehension. To be counted among the latter party by your peers is to achieve an obvious social advantage. But what happens when, over time, and due in part to the rapid cultural exchange facilitated by social media and the internet, more and more people get wise to the additional meaning? Such knowledge loses its social advantage, and the cultural vanguard must construct additional layers of irony in an unceasing arms race to stay ahead of their peers. Thus, we end up in a situation like that of today, with a zeitgeist characterized by a massive tower of ironic layers that becomes increasingly difficult to parse by casual observers. Eventually, enough people will decide it's too difficult to keep up the charade and the tower will topple over, giving rise to a new post-ironic period.
It continually disappoints me that so many people today think the irony trend is somehow new, when the same cycle has been repeating itself over and over throughout history. Do you really think pic related wasn't running on 3 or 4 layers of irony when he donned this outfit?

>>18741243
insightful effortpost

>>18741021
Listen to his "This Is Water" speech instead
t. never even opened IJ

>>18741243
>>18741056
great posts

>>18741337
Thank you, despite all the negativity there are still a lot of beautiful minds lurking here. Have a wonderful evening.

Godspeed

Does anyone here have the copypasta about DFW's infamous interview?

>>18741131
You talk about being 100% sincere but your examples arent sincere at all. Im not sure what part of you picking up women with rape jokes counts as sincere, you even call them jokes. You ask mothers to shut their children up in a joking way because you are too cowardly to just tell them to stfu plainly, they arent humoured that you threw in the devouring aspect, in fact they probably wonder what the fuck this weirdo is talking about eating kids for. Its making me think dont even know what sincerity is and youre mistaking it for just being a douchebag and that is exactly what OP is describing. You arent hiding behind irony, youre just an asshole and thats DFW's problem with the world

>>18741163
Nothing bad has happened yet, and nothing bad will happen. This 'bad' that could happen is always thwarted by the idea that what was said wasn't serious. The bad that can happen is never a consequence of your actions, it is always a consequence of the others' misunderstanding. Post-irony anyhow, thrives on empathy and conflict avoidance, and in a sense has morphed into an alternate sincerity that is somewhat free of the cringe-based dichotomy thanks to its ambivalence. To the ever present question posed to these clowns: "Are you serious?" Their only answer has to be "of course I am", while implying they aren't.

>>18741399
>>18741406
no wonder you are a bank sector bugman, end your life please (ironically of course), I'm sure your coworkers would find it hilarious too

>>18741406
So if something does happen because you misread the situation and said something inappropriate, it is obviously their fault and you were obviously not serious?

>>18741443
It's a wormlike way to try to shift the blame onto those who actually understand you and call you out for it. This is some "Your Honor, I only raped those kids ironically" shit. 100% retarded.

>>18741406
Why is it so bad being vulnerable?

>>18741131
This has to be bait, no one is this insufferable

>>18741131
Imagine going to work and seeing this guy in the office.
>>18741457
Self-hate? It seems like a bad way to cope.

>>18741337
>>18741256
Thanks. I think the main issue that leads to a deficit in this kind of understanding is the fact that history as written for laymen, and as taught to students, is primarily concerned with facts and events and not on cultural attitudes, especially the minutia of historical culture, such as the kind of jokes and language that were in recreational use in the past. When primary sources are introduced to students and laymen, they generally concern cultural attitudes about major events and philosophical topics of the day, like Jefferson's wife's essay about slavery or something. For one thing, the minutia of historical zeitgeist are generally regarded as mundane and unimportant, and there isn't really enough time to get into it unless you're a professional historian delving deeply into understanding a very specific period. The other aspect is that most of it wasn't even recorded in the first place. Since the middle of the 20th century we have begun collecting a massive archive of everyday communication and casual entertainment media for people to look back on, but before that, there isn't much to go by. All this amounts to an impression to the casual observer that people in the past were stilted, serious, unironic and humorless, though this couldn't be father from the truth. It's akin to a child thinking that the world before color tv was actually black and white. When you hear about the graffiti found on the walls in ancient Rome ("I fucked so-and-so's mom") or Ben Franklin's treatise on having affairs with milfs, to pick two commonly-known examples, it tends to come off as almost unbelievably anachronistic the modern reader. Or, for another example, everyone knows the "yankee doodle dandy" song but most people cannot begin to wrap their head around the actual meaning: Americans post-ironically singing a song which takes the perspective of the British ironically calling Americans dandies for ironically making fun of the appearance of European fags. That's at least 3 layers of irony, and there's nothing new under the sun.

>>18740975
The obsession with sincerity seems neurotic. Why do you need to show people "the real you" at all times? Why is other people putting on a show so bothersome to you? It's no wonder why DFW killed himself, he was a neurotic

>>18741243
Mr. Pinecone???

>>18741525
Its against increasing prevalence of purely ironic and superficial conversation. Not for pure starry eyed sincerity.

>>18741394
Here ya go:

>How many times have you watched the interview?
More times than I’d like to share. I once fell asleep to it every night for a week. It was just so calming and evoked a strange temporal comfort, of another time and place where I wasn’t so inundated with trivial information about the world or with ideological predispositions that made me care. You could tell he wanted to either not speak or talk on a point for hours, but the long form interview is the closest thing television got to real informational literature. It’s fantastic. The camera man is a jokester and the interviewer is callously attempting to be genuine only after he forces her to. Their play between preconstructed question and the accidental narrative arc he gives the whole thing is magical. In a twist of irony this interview has had more impact on me than most of his writing. I’ve read lots of his essays and enjoyed them. I’ve tried to read infinite jest twice, both times stopping somewhere between p100-200. His demeanor, his regretful and bashful intellect, it’s all things I wish I could see in myself. I want to be more secluded and smart, but I’m the loud, boisterous and obnoxious fellow at parties everyone either loves or despises. I’ve learned I don’t care much for that life but I’m too deep into my own life to really be able to rewrite my entire personality, and even if I could, wouldn’t it just be a false replication or simulation of who a person wanted to be. I think I’ll watch it to sleep tonight. These past few months have been rough, and DFW in that video is more a friend than any of my personal friendships and relationships have ever been. I hate, and I assume he would go, this idolizing, but I think he gets at it in the interview when he talks about how reading lets you get into the mind of a person more so than we ever will talking to them. I know this may be too sincere or honest for /lit/ and for the dfw meme, but life is just really hard these days. It’s nice to find nice things in the world.

>>18740975
The worst part about it is that often when you are being honest people assume you are hiding the truth, you can not win.

People who use irony too much are mentally ill. I’m not even joking, I can’t stand people who just never say what they actually mean or want.

If your honest with who you are, people will respect that. NO ONE, respects a court jester.

>>18741525
There is less balance in 2021

wtf are people talking about in this thread? irony has been moribund since 2015-2016, and that's a bad thing.

I wish irony was still dominant because it allowed for space to play with all kinds of crazy ideas without being forced to take ownership over it. now, if you even hint at something taboo or "sacrilegious", you're cut out completely. it's resulted in an infinitely more boring and paranoid world because too many faggots couldn't handle it.

>>18741131
based as all hell, I'd hate life without it

>>18740975
The problem with this romantic notion of sincerity is that it presupposes a kind of authentic and valuable self that just needs to express itself or whatever. The self is not like that, it's malleable and rife with negative aspects that have to tempered, it is a constant evolution that has to be directed towards some end. Pure sincerity means nothing at all. We obviously lack any grounded telos in contemporary life so there is nothing to be sincere about apart from indulging ourselves in whatever we like. This is just retreading existentialism for the 100th time, 'authenticity' good faith, etc.

Dude, irony is fucking dead in western societies. It's all about extremism now. Whether you think that the world is ruled by a cartel that congregates at a pizza place to molest children or by an evil white patriarchy that keeps women down and week, people are so totally done with irony.

>>18740975
COVID will kill that just give it a few more years :)

>>18742203
satanic kidnappings were a thing before IJ

>>18742246
Yes, but they did not dominate discourse and lead to a group of people storming a parliament building.

>>18742250
That had nothing to do with le pizza it was about concerns over elekshun frod

>>18742250
uhh yes it did

>>18742267
It is the result of a general movement in our society (back) towards extremes. Mr. Tennis Man probably did not have this in mind when he talked about true sincerity but here we are.

>>18741526
Who?

>>18740975
Maybe this is just me projecting, but I really think that almost everyone in modern society is completely and utterly fucking miserable. Like just totally heartbroken and confused and endlessly dissatisfied with living day to day with the unbelievable tedium. And the only way this can really make "sense" is to basically pretend that your feelings aren't real. They must not mean much if the world just goes on like it does regardless.

>>18742388
That's the way I feel, but I'm not sure if other people are the same. It seems that normalfaggots are animals without thoughts so they don't mind much.

>>18740975
People have been saying this for years, but truthfully I have never seen this to be the case outside of the internet, and even then people are very much capable of sincerity.

>>18740975
Stop looking. Stop engaging. Withdraw. Find others who are willing to withdraw with you. Build something sustainable outside the present framework that will attract others to you. You may feel lonely, but those who are willing to accept your message will search until they find you.

>>18742424
Most people have thoughts and emotions, it's abnormal not to have them.

http://www.cosmoetica.com/B1349-JH1.htm

>>18742440
>start a cult

>>18741005
>irony will burn itself out, eventually.
it won't. you don't understand the power of it. it's like being drunk all the time. nothing is "serious" except the officially serious things of course, like people taking what you do seriously, and pointing out that this way of doing things is doing damage everywhere. the default answer to pointing out bullshit in someone's narrative is now "you are bitter and negative" it doesn't matter if you are telling them the truth, bring up statistics, facts, if you have a degree in whatever you're talking about, you HAVE to support the "just do whatever you want lol" lifestyle and all its implications. the current state of the world is pretty much like people bringing home 20 puppies because puppies are cute and when you tell them that these puppies will become adult dogs and create issues you get called an asshole because you're ruining the fun. When the dogs do become a problem they will just blame someone else because that's what they feel is the most comfy thing to do, and so on forever

>>18742484

fight club is the best cult all the kids were doing it

>>18742478
>Most people have thoughts and emotions
that doesn't mean anything, being excited because coca-cola changed the bottle design is an emotion but it's a worthless one

>>18742531
What is your life like that the people around you care about the design on a coke can? Get better friends

>>18742517
great post

>>18742560
I think coca-cola knows more than you about the feelings of NPCs when they change the bottle design

>>18742691
gravity is crucial
geomagnetism

Peter sloterdijk "kritik der kynischen vernunft"

>>18742691
What I mean is, why are you surrounded by such people? Why pay them any mind? If there are no interesting or intelligent people in your life, you can do something about that

>>18740975
You know what's funny? This super-ironic posing has been the way most people measure themselves against others for a looong time now. It dates back at least to the 18th century.

I've been reading 19th century lit a lot lately, and every comedy of manners, from Balzac to Tolstoy, has characters who are absolutely horrified of being "ridiculous", "scandalous", etc. It's literally their greatest fear in life - exposing themselves and being sincere - because that's inviting ridicule from others.

On the other hand, people are admired for being witty, funny and sarcastic (the french "esprit").

I blame Voltaire and the Enlightenment in general

>>18742560
>>18743210
I mean you're just changing the subject from what he was discussing to what his life is like

>>18741243
very thorough, thank you anon.
>If you want a better theory, consider that irony is a form of utterance that postulates a double audience, consisting of one party that hears and does not understand, and another party that hears and is aware of both the additional meaning and of the outsiders' incomprehension.
To me, this is the most dangerous part of irony. It is an extremely casual way to reinforce imagined superiority. But people have always been geniuses at crafting different ways to do this, so i do see your point.
>If anything, they seem uniquely receptive to the concept of embracing emotional vulnerability as part of the new "mental health and wellbeing" fad that's going on.
But I must disagree with you here, in fact I find that it is within this subculture which takes mental health seriously that the worst issues of irony exist. It has become very commonplace to self-deprecate by means of making very light of anxiety, depression, and etc. Many people I've met (i'm 26) enjoy (actually enjoy) casually making remarks about how they want to die or how life is unbearable because of their mental health. I've been thinking about why this is for a while, and i think its because of the ingrouping you hit on;
people who are outspoken about their mental health feel they have come into a world in which it is mostly held in silence, so the need to validate their own uniqueness forces them to share beyond what is traditionally socially acceptable. I don't need to explain to you why constantly affirming your limitations is therapeutically disastrous. The first step of therapy is learning that you do not have to identify with your limitations, and depending on how more complex your therapy becomes you can eventually come to terms with the part of the self which enjoys affirming these things.
So, to make this full circle, people with mental health issues want to talk about mental bc they recognize no one else is, 2 dominant forms of expression in our culture are irony and the excessive need for uniqueness, and because of the resemblance between people denying mental health is an issue at all and telling people that they are actually a great deal responsible for their own issues (via affirming them and being comfortable with them) it is very difficult to tell someone that they shouldn't be ironic about how they want to die and, realizing this, people feel justified in making these remarks.

>>18743244
The French esprit is something else, cynicism is a very specific genre of thought, not everyone who is witty and swift in their though is cynical.

>>18740975
>People are genuinely afraid of expressing any of their feelings anymore, to be earnest makes you 'cringe'.
I'm not concerned about being labeled cringe; I'm concerned about the cancel culture SJWs trying to end my (public sector, public facing) career if I point out the nonsense of extreme positions in favor of moderate ones.

>>18743270
Yes but the spirituous characters almost always have a cynical outlook, are shown as assholes, immoral, etc.

i'm not sure that there exists are faster route to hating your friends than being someone who once partook in this incessant ironic humour and then later outgrew it whilst said friends continued to add layer after layer over their now-insufferable "personalities". in the somewhat normalfag portion of my life, they simply cannot resist posting any number of completely inane, ironic comments on my instagram or wherever else when i have done absolutely nothing to indicate that it is welcome. how do i make non-retarded friends, /lit/? where are they hiding.

>>18743536
>using instagram
cringe

>>18743477
Yes, but it has more to do with materialism. I don't know when the concept of espy came into being, but it probably coincided with the enlightenment. So i agree with you that esprit is probably often mixed with cynicism. Anyway, esprit is most beautiful when it is offered without cynicism.

>>18743549
photographer for a decade, i have little choice in this modern hell

>>18743536
take yoga classes

>>18740975
Don Quixote is the ultimate treatise on irony and sincerity.

>>18741058
Who is Mary represented by in this picture?

>>18743732
Lurk more.

>>18743536
it's probably too late now, anon

>>18740975
Here’s another thing about DFW. It seems like he realizes the end of the pursuit of knowledge, is to come back to very simple truths, even banal, hallmark card type stuff. Being too cool, too intellectual for simple things, like the stuff that people do in AA, is really a cope by brainiac types. When you roll your eyes at self-help books and say that something so stupid could never be of use to you, you might also be unnecessarily harming yourself.

I guess that means there is a thread of connection with Jordan Peterson then. Be good to your mother. Don’t be a doormat. Try to avoid addictions. It is good to work toward a goal. It is good to be in a community. It is good to have a family. Respect others freedoms and defend your own. Try not to lie. Words are important. All the stuff that we thought was gay when we were younger and which people hate Jordan Peterson for because “it’s so simple and reductive,” yes it’s simple, and people still don’t do them because they think they’re too good for that stuff.

>>18743767
by zeus, damn this accursed fate!

>>18743774
the simplest advice is always the best

>>18743732
Mary Karr on the junket tour for Cherry

>>18743536
What do you mean by "ironic comments?" I genuinely have no idea

>>18741056
The heat has been turned off, the convective forces have ceased, and now we are left only to watch the fat, oil, and scum to differentiate itself to the top.

>>18741045
>>18741032
diversity sauce

>>18743774
>When you roll your eyes at self-help books and say that something so stupid could never be of use to you, you might also be unnecessarily harming yourself.
People don't criticize self help because it's stupid. People criticize it because it's just rehashed platitudes puffed up to fill a 200 page book and then sold as if it's some profound wisdom.

Also, Peterson is attacked for his braindead opinions on philosophy and politics more so than for his self help advice.

>>18741022
no, it's because it's an insult, and it's a breakdown of masculinity. america was founded by people who shot at each other over insults and is now run by people who insult each other all day online.

a snarky ironic culture can only grow when there are no consequences

>>18741243
>I would wager
would you?
>since the beginning of time
wow that's a long time
>varying degrees
never heard that before
>to such an extent
what an extent it was!
>get wise
i would hope!
>we end up
i end down sometimes though
>keep up the charade
bravo
>giving rise
give rise? me? i stole some rise this morning though!
>donned this outfit
yawn

if you're going to effort post please EDIT. reading this was like fucking the green side of a sponge

>>18746149
modern art, by definition, hurts
--žniffman

>>18741520
So interesting thank you anon.

>>18743536
I'm here but I have given up on people 7 years ago, I only hatepost

>>18746342
Elaborate on that, please.

>>18741708
>If your honest with who you are, people will respect that. NO ONE, respects a court jester.
I feel the exact opposite.

>>18741004
>>18740980
Wow OP is right about DFW being right

>>18746345
no longer interested in friendly interaction

>>18741637
what a faggot

>>18746149
What's the point of this post?

>>18746446
The same as all other ones.

>>18740975
Any romantic that is into subjectivity.

something tells me op got btfo'd in a different thread about 20 seconds before he posted this lol

Ok, how do I be sincere without fucking up my personal and professional life? Should I cast these aside? Why does it matter?

>>18741131
Fuck you Micheal Michael

>>18741520
If you are willing to drop your email I would like to be your apprentice

>>18742388
>The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. What is called resignation is confirmed desperation. From the desperate city you go into the desperate country, and have to console yourself with the bravery of minks and muskrats. A stereotyped but unconscious despair is concealed even under what are called the games and amusements of mankind. There is no play in them, for this comes after work. But it is a characteristic of wisdom not to do desperate things.

It has always been this way, this is the human condition, learn too look beyond the surface and console yourself with understanding, seek your own light, or perish among the wildfire of common desperation

>>18744693
Look at the books that win writing awards in Canada...

>>18741520
>When you hear about the graffiti found on the walls in ancient Rome ("I fucked so-and-so's mom") or Ben Franklin's treatise on having affairs with milfs, to pick two commonly-known examples,
but there's such a dearth of those examples. i've listened to a great courses thing, "the other side of history", which tries to give the banal daily ideas and thoughts of nonrich people -- is there another source you'd recommend, one that has lots of firsthand accounts? collected diaries? I've myself moved onto Montainge's essays, which is a good stopgap.

>>18740975

I noticed this as far back as college in 2012. I was part of a very competitive and large music program. Going in I thought it be vibrant bunch but to my shock it was one of the most intense hive minds I’ve seen. The chasm between my expectations and reality gave me legit depression. You “had” to be the quirky Reddit musician but all their quirks were the same. All opinions casually policed, extremely PC... and like you said afraid of being earnest.

And these are creative types?? Boy, no wonder culture is dead.

>>18750624
How do you exactly define "afraid of being earnest"? Is it anything more than just not saying the wrong thing because of political correctness? What else is going on here?

also this thread is garbage. OP made an interesting post and (ironically) people are just being ironic and witty.

>>18746149
I'm baffled by this post.
I can't tell if you're really autistic or just really really retarded. You're aware that certain expressions exist and people tend to use them right?

>reading this was like fucking the green side of a sponge
Also, this simile is terrible. Keep practicing and spend less time giving writing tips that you're clearly unqualified to give.

>>18750824
visual artist here: it's what it says on the tin. if you do something personal that doesn't look like whatever other people are doing they all turn incredibly hostile
it's not a skills or competition thing, it's like a taboo, you are not supposed to speak from deep within, people feel like they are violated when you do that

>>18743666
whatever you say satan

>>18751046
I really don't think this is the case. I found that as I moved out of my social awkward stage of high school the best thing I could do was be earnest and interested towards people. I think most people at bottom are good people and they'll notice you're effort and honesty and appreciate you for it. Can you give me any examples? Sorry but I find your explanation vague still. What exactly are these taboos you're referring to? You seem to feel very strongly about this so I am very curious because the majority of my experience with being sincere and earnest is that I get back what I receive.
In any case, true sincerity is not limited by these things. At the end of the day we can only do our best and remaining in this mindset I've managed to construct a close circle of friends who practice the things I find lacking in others.

>>18750624
Go to a writer's fest event. I had the only bicep muscles in the entire fucking place. Surrounded by blue hairs, fat chicks, queers.

>>18751434
>Go to a writer's fest event. I had the only bicep muscles in the entire fucking place. Surrounded by blue hairs, fat chicks, queers.

You're not even being earnest. You're so blinded by your insecurities that you don't even realize that they are causing you to hate others. The only biceps in the place? What are you an 8th grade jock? So cringe

>>18751422
>the best thing I could do was be earnest and interested towards people.
one thing is being nice and "interested" toward people. and another thing is being sincere. sincerity sometimes hurts and promote some kind of chaos in relationships. remember that people, in general, want to hear what they expect to hear. you confuse sincerity with having a "good hearted attitude" and thats not the case.

>>18751668
Guarantee you are a fucking beta geek, women immediately notice your build and how you carry yourself.

>>18751850
>Guarantee you are a fucking beta geek, women immediately notice your build and how you carry yourself.
That has literally nothing at all to do with what I said. What does the fact that "women like muscle-man" have anything to do with your excessive need to degrade others? You think you're so different from the hivemind but you don't even realize how hiveminded you sound using buzzwords and ideas you obviously picked up on 4chan.
Seriously, I am baffled by your lack of reading comprehension. What I implied was that you weren't being sincere because actual sincerity would understand the sincerity of your self, which would in your case mean coming to terms with the insecurities that force you to belittle strangers.
There is nothing you can say which will win you this argument. You would have to argue with me against the point that the only reason to be so cruel to people is because of insecurity and I'm guaranteeing you it isn't false.
(I'm being mean to your here because of how little sense you're making and because this is the standard of this board; the same rules, you'd be surprised, do not apply in the real world)
You're obviously stuck in this feedback loop of the primitive power play dominance mindset which you think operates the entire world. But the world doesn't always work like that. It's pretty clear you THINK it works like that because for your entire life you were the """beta""" dominated by """alphas"""

And are you really under the impression that you were the only interesting person at that entire event? I guarantee you the vast majority of them were normie tier so don't even try to attack my argument and deflect on that point. In any case, what did you fucking expect? Did you not think that going to an event for people who are trying to make a profession in something in which they necessarily need to excessively believe in themselves/their work would be a mediocre crowd at best? 90% of everything is shit. lower your expectations.

Lastly, you know very little about me so kindly don't project your insecurities onto me either. I am eagerly awaiting what you have to reply to this. Have you considered therapy? Congratulations on being fit--really that is no small accomplishment--but it doesn't change the issues you have within.


>>18751841
>remember that people, in general, want to hear what they expect to hear.
I never denied this. People are on average pretty mediocre. You should lower your expectations. I've found that expecting nothing but remaining positive is the best course of action to build meaningful relationships. If it doesn't work out I have no attachment.
>you confuse sincerity with having a "good hearted attitude" and thats not the case.
I absolutely do not think there is really much of a difference between those 2 things. We must be firm in our beliefs and good hearted in whatever the outcome is.

>>18752010

>>18752010
>imagine trying to find people who are gregarious and creative like you, only to discover the room full of normie-tier conformists that are guaranteed to be double-masking, get-the-jab faggots completely programmed by the overall western narrative. ZERO originality.

>>18752010
>i've found that expecting nothing but remaining positive is the best course of action to build meaningful relationships.
im only saying this have nothing to do with sincerity but with having "good and meaningful relationships". sincerity ends in rejection because people dont want to hear things in determined environments that they think have controlled limits. its not because you are not good hearted enough. if all, being good hearted inhibit your sincerity..

>>18752116
different anon but you're probably right. being "good hearted" is solely to sate the expectations of others and is a complete betrayal of genuine sincerity. you can either accept the consequences of being sincere and forthright and the negative reactions that are an inevitable byproduct of living that way, or you can dole out your social niceties that only exist to placate the other and exist in a state of feigned compassion like everyone else.

>>18752185
People are going to attack you no matter what, might as well go through life like a bowling ball. Imagine being polite when a fat boomer tells you that you need the vaccine? Fuck off fatty, hahaha...

>>18751422
I wasn't talking about sincerity in the sense of speaking truthfully. There's something more abstract than simple conversational skills going on. More like that you cannot lean too much over something. Say if you like writing you need to have a certain outlook on writing, you cannot write things that show too much of your own voice, imagine that as a writer you have a peculiar style, something that people love about say McCarthy or Hemingway, a specific voice that shows a lot of who you are, what your preferences are, how you see the world, people will immediately become critical of it, not because it's ambitious or poorly executed because they do love poorly executed work that conforms. They hate it instead because it's unexpected and they don't know how to evaluate it, they have set these very strict dogmatic standards for writing and themselves and everyone else and when you present something to them that requires critical thinking they just reject it. There's in general a very procedural view of the work being done, a pervading pseudo-professionalism, which is mostly just about showing yourself in as a light as bright and universally likeable as possible. This of course extends not only to things you produce but also your opinions, your speech, etc. Speech is very obvious as it takes a second to observe how everyone tends to use the same inflection, same tone, same figures of speech, and so on.
This was WAY different before the internet. I remember that people had a much much broader range of character, not just in terms of distinct opinions on the world but also body language, tone of voice, etc. and they wouldn't be judged for it, it was just normal and it was part of a person's character. Now it's seen like a flaw.

>>18752090
Are you the anon i replied to? Just so you know I have literally no attachments at all to your lower tier bs. It's hilarious how by no coincidence this power play dynamic mindset flourishes on 4chan because most of the posters were wimpy geeks who got traumatized into thinking the world always operates in such a way. You're not a better man for being more muscular or by being """dominant""". The bullies have won. Your power unceasing loyalty to this powerplay dominance dynamic is in reality you crying very bitterly on the inside that people didn't treat you well enough growing up Get a therapist

>>18752110
Again, why are you disappointing yourself by expecting anything else? It has always been like this. This is human history. You're neither unique for being in this position nor for having these insights.

>>18752116
> im only saying this have nothing to do with sincerity but with having "good and meaningful relationships". sincerity ends in rejection because people dont want to hear things in determined environments that they think have controlled limits.
Then they weren't going to be meaningful relationships in the first place.

>its not because you are not good hearted enough. if all, being good hearted inhibit your sincerity..
being good hearted allows you the chance to discover those who are sincere. But would you mind giving me a further explanation of how it inhibits sincerity?

>>18752185
>being "good hearted" is solely to sate the expectations of others and is a complete betrayal of genuine sincerity. you can either accept the consequences of being sincere and forthright and the negative reactions that are an inevitable byproduct of living that way

"negative" is really up to you. If you have those expectations you're always going to be disappointed, but if you follow what i'm saying is right in these situations you'll encounter the few people who are worth getting to know on this god forsaken planet.

>>18752196
>There's in general a very procedural view of the work being done, a pervading pseudo-professionalism, which is mostly just about showing yourself in as a light as bright and universally likeable as possible. This of course extends not only to things you produce but also your opinions, your speech, etc. Speech is very obvious as it takes a second to observe how everyone tends to use the same inflection, same tone, same figures of speech, and so on.

I know its depressing anon but i don't know what else to tell you. History has led to the creation of this moment, will you fight and become the ubermensch, or perish like a dog?

>This was WAY different before the internet. I remember that people had a much much broader range of character, not just in terms of distinct opinions on the world but also body language, tone of voice, etc. and they wouldn't be judged for it, it was just normal and it was part of a person's character. Now it's seen like a fla
Very curious about this though. Could you elaborate a bit more?

>>18752614
2/2
Despite being pretty stupid, people aren't as stupid as all of you think. If you're uninterested because you've already defined everyone in the room people are going to perceive you as uninteresting.

>>18752614
>Very curious about this though. Could you elaborate a bit more?
Example: there was a guy I knew who was always grinning while he talked to you. He just had this shit-eating grin all the time. Perfectly normal, healthy, fun guy. That was just his way of smiling. Once I figured that out that became part of his character. Another person I knew avoided eye contact. This today is some kind of major red flag, oh no he avoids eye contact this person has problems. Not that this was NOT annoying sometimes, or that it was imperceptible, but it was simply not a bit deal and again, one would simply associate that with the character of this person. Even girls, who generally tended toward normie-r unless they were punk or goth, had a ton more variety in character. Two perfectly normie girls would have entirely different musical tastes. You could have a blonde bimbo type who listened to heavy metal because that was the music she liked.
More broadly speaking, people were way more often fitting a type that you could make a funny impression of. Girls, guys, everyone had a certain footprint in his character that you would meet with perhaps some attrition at first but then you accepted as that person's natural behavior and there was nothing wrong with it, unless this actually impacted your time with that person or you specifically perceived it as annoying because it was annoying YOU, personally. Not because "it's annoying if you do this".
Now this kind of diversity is not only much rarer but when it does come up it's often seen as a much more alarming thing, like if someone doesn't make eye contact or has a certain tone of voice he registers as "weird" or "off" and that's how he stays in people's heads. Younger people are a lot more flat from this point of view. I think this is just a sign that there's an enormous pressure on people to conform and appear "normal" and only be "different" within certain, approved boxes, like your sexual orientation and things like that.

>>18752614
>But would you mind giving me a further explanation of how it inhibits sincerity?
since the beginning you have this mindset of goodhearted equal to sincere. i just want to separate them so you understand sincerity can lead to deep disappointment, rejection and being an irremediable outcast. can lead you to some good relationships too but even in that relationships sincerity is always a menace to break the harmony. i just want you to understand the "dark" side of sincerity and how disruptive and unconfortable can be in any social scene or relationship.
when you want to be goodhearted is because you want to have meaningful, peaceful and nice relationships not because you want to be sincere so your own sincerity become soft and dependent of the moment. become subservient of that nice and healthy relationships you have in your mind.

>>18752734
>I think this is just a sign that there's an enormous pressure on people to conform and appear "normal" and only be "different" within certain, approved boxes,
i think psychiatry/psychology and her intelectual dominance in society have something to say in this. and in general with everything you say. we literally have a "science" that make behavioral boxes in humans.

i've never read any of his work but i agree with the gist of what you're saying. why is this the case? was it ever any different?

>>18752807
On the impressions thing, it was very very easy to just mimic someone's body language for a second and his or her tone of voice and manner of speech and have someone else instantly recognize who that person was. You know like when someone squints a certain way and you're like "ah, Clint Eastwood". And if the person was present you'd be pretty safe that there'd be no grudge about it. This shit is getting harder and harder today. I like to observe people and it's much harder to find that key in younger people.
Put this together with how kids share wojak tier memes on instagram and go "lol this is literally me to a T" this is kind of weird. This third for confirmation shit would have been so much harder to pull off with the people I knew in that age range back then. Chances are that even if you manage to create a "type" that would fit more or less everyone in a certain category of people (one of the many), people would reject it on the basis that no, I'm not a fucking meme. This without the fact that you could have far more exchange of opinions on politics etc. and have a group of friends within a decently wide spectrum of political opinions (of course everyone was leaning left but you'd have people who were from conservative families in the middle and the ultra hard militant commies were actually rarer than today)

>>18740975
DFW wanted to return to sincerity. He killed himself. Not a good strat. The only way forwards can obviously only be found by moving forwards. Our culture is becoming post-ironic. Post-irony trumps the snarky assholes and will eventually return back to sincerity necessarily. If you think about it post-irony will fundamentally deconstruct itself in the end when turned against itself.

>>18752903
yeah we now live in an age of staggering narcissism and self-righteousness, the problem is not a lack of sincerity lmao

>>18752903
>Our culture is becoming post-ironic.
>Post-irony trumps the snarky assholes and will eventually return back to sincerity necessarily.
there will only be a void left and it will be all fabricated
people will just embrace the fabricated, untrue nature of things completely
rejecting the notion that fake things are undesirable will allow people to be comfortable in an entirely fabricated reality
remember that we no longer modify the zeitgeist, people are adapting themselves to it

>>18753158
Ironically DFW's desperate attempt to find meaning in Christianity was also part of this pattern. "It's obvious that there's no God, so what? I'll try to believe anyway." Between truth and Jesus, one chooses Jesus. This is not dissimilar to other patterns of modernity. In fact we might end up not with a globohomo human blob but a multitude of bubbled individuals who are eventually free to do what they want, believe what they want, do horrible things or play martyr, all in a little comfortable bubble, one isolated from the world and the world isolated from them. It's a possibility. It could also happen in parallel with the pilled up dystopia where people go by on raw dopamine and other chemicals, with no need for things such as affection or entertainment.

>>18752734
>>18752893
This is very strange. I am only 26 so it is hard for me to say how people behaved before the advent of smartphones, but i am curious if someone else could weigh in. What you're saying seems to me like a difficult thing to prove. Is it not clear that your assumptions might be some sort of role in how you view people? The kind of thing you're saying just sounds exactly to me like the kind of thing that is easy enough to make a free association of. Still i'm curious. Where do you live? How old are you?
At the end of the day my point still remains. If we become discouraged by the lack of sincerity in our peers we become just as lacking in it ourselves. I can guarantee you that if you gave people more of a chance you would be surprised.

>>18753697
Im 43, the difference between women in 2001 compared to 2021 is massive. Night and day. It used to be so easy to get laid and a house 30 mins from downtown Vancouver was 150k

Now women are insane and housing is a carrot on a stick to the npc slaves

>>18740975
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjMo6rLCBPw

>>18752752
>can lead you to some good relationships too but even in that relationships sincerity is always a menace to break the harmony
i really have no idea what you'r talking about. The friendships I've made I am comfortable being incredibly honest in.
>i just want you to understand the "dark" side of sincerity and how disruptive and uncomfortable can be in any social scene or relationship.
This is really just up to you. In my experience it doesn't make me uncomfortable because I am confident with the person i am.
>when you want to be goodhearted is because you want to have meaningful, peaceful and nice relationships not because you want to be sincere so your own sincerity become soft and dependent of the moment. become subservient of that nice and healthy relationships you have in your mind.
Again this is wrong. The more honest and sincere I've become the harder it is for me to fully invest (ie, be goodhearted) without feeling dishonest. If i am in the presence of someone I trust than I am totally comfortable leveling with them about my feelings. This isn't everyone, but my argument is really about this close circle I've constructed because I've practiced sincerity.

>>18753708
I'm not sure either of those things really have to do with sincerity, nor do they prove that you shouldn't just be sincere yourself despite all the odds. You can spend your entire life complaining or you can do something about it. All mystics talk about how paramount expectations are to your energy and if you are assuming the worst people are going to be effected by that expectation

>>18754345
>but my argument is really about this close circle I've constructed because I've practiced sincerity.
im sorry to say this but what you are creating is a circle jerking, an echo chamber. you create an environment where you can be comfortable sincere and then you say happily how sincere you are and how naturally positive is to be sincere. unfortunately thats not the world. my point is that you need this secure environment artificially created to keep this notion of yours of sincerity. talk to people, talk to your "enemies", talk to the people who dont think and dont feel like you, its too easy to only talk with the ones that make you feel comfortable and avoid the others and go talking about sincerity. once you are sincere with everyone and in every situation you can understand the total spectrum of sincerity that im talking about. in fact, your notion is the one that reject the sincere people that dont mix well with you.

>>18754459
>im sorry to say this but what you are creating is a circle jerking, an echo chamber. you create an environment where you can be comfortable sincere and then you say happily how sincere you are and how naturally positive is to be sincere
lmao what? no thats not it at all! Its me cultivating meaningful relationships based on truth--nothing less and nothing more. It's very clear to me that you view what I'm saying so cynically because that is your particular experience of sincerity which you have come to think is much more a standard than it really is. It has nothing to do with comfort.
>once you are sincere with everyone and in every situation you can understand the total spectrum of sincerity that im talking about. in fact, your notion is the one that reject the sincere people that dont mix well with you.
Theres really nothing wrong with not mixing with people I don't like too much. I'm still sincere with strangers and people I don't like to a degree, but not nearly to the same degree of honesty which I am with my close friends, that much is obvious. It isn't necessary to wear my heart on my sleeve and to 100% of the time be brutally honest to strangers in order to be called "sincere." I think what DFW was getting at was something much more subtle and easy than this; just go about your day confident in what you think and don't try to conform to discomfort or anything else. Thats all it is. I mean I have success in being this way I don't know what to tell you. Becoming shy because you're worried about what other people will think is the first thing to not do in any social situation and the exact opposite of sincerity. What everyone in this thread is arguing for amounts to "people suck so why bother?" when you very well have resources and abilities at your disposal likely not available to most of the world--I mean clearly you're typing on a computer. Perhaps you have your health too, and if you do what else do you need? This isn't some self-help guru bullshit

>>18754537
>but not nearly to the same degree of honesty which I am with my close friends, that much is obvious.
no, its not obvious. that is exactly what im saying. and the fact that you think is obvious is the reason why you are avoiding and denying or maybe dont understanding the consequences of total honesty and sincerity.
you have to understand, also, that every relationship have this subtle hipocrisy and paths about what you can say and what you cant say. for some reason you are completely blind to this notions so you are probably blind to your own hipocrisy and the subtle secure paths of conversations that your relationships naturally create, the limit of concepts and feelings you share in your relationships to avoid the conflict a real sincere conversations would have. i dont believe you have this total honesty and opennes with more than one or two persons and even that relationships can endure very short time because is based in a shared worldview and everyone is changing all the time. im not trying to be negative, and im not talking about myself, im talking more about the blindness of self-rightoeus people that reject blunt sincerity in others without realizing it. i see it practically everyday.
you sound like this type of person.

>>18746362
cringe

What counts as irony nowadays? Cringe culture is pretty much dead at this point.
https://youtu.be/x2nDH3fzCT8

>>18741406
>its just a prank bro
White people are doomed.

>>18742203
Somewhat related, both of those ideas were created by people who fell for memes.

>>18740975
This is a projection of your insecurity. The message everywhere is about authenticity and self-expression

>>18740975
You faggots need to learn that being sincere does not mean being without humour. It does not mean being a dried up husk of a person, spouting short little messages about how "it's all so tiresome" on the internet. Do something about it you absolute philistines. Show emotion, not resignation.

>>18753697
>How old are you?
Mid 30s
I don't know how to "prove it" to you because it's a thing that you cannot put into a statistic or show through yearbook photographs. My memory is rather clear on the people I met and their behavior and body language, so I don't believe that I'm seeing things through rose-tinted glasses. In fact there was nothing specifically "good" about this, I just remember more variety.
In fact I've done the impression thing with someone I met recently all the way back from HS, talking about one of the other guys.
The younger people I know today, I wouldn't be able to do that. I would do their local accent but that's it. Unironically there's a girl whose impression would be staring down at her phone.

>>18742484
>cults bad because... they just are ok?

>>18741243
This is an excellent start to longer reflections on how intelligent and socially skillful people modulate irony considerately, even affectionately, depending on the person and circumstance, as a means for talking to anyone who likes to talk, and the way this emerges from awareness of the reality of other selves, and can develop into a subtle power of characterizing others, or conjuring them in fleeting mimicry while winging it. It's a lonely world out there, and hardly anything is more attractive than a mind inhabited with memory beyond easy reckoning, or more seductive than irony layered richly as a good storyteller's is. One could even say that to describe at all is mode of irony, in that a certain kind of stagecraft for re-directing the listener's/reader's gaze & imagination is inseparable from it. So to reduce irony to some kind of fashionably bitter snark opposed to sincerity is to not only miss the whole developmental point of indirect communication, but to deny it, perhaps a little too conveniently in some cases: There is something curiously uninhabited about DFW's whole perspective, and I find it more desolate than sincere. In interviews he even talks about social or artistic "phenomena" as if they happened out of nowhere, with no particular inventors, authors, motives, no provenance in persons to be named. That is not how it works. That is not how anything works.

>>18755848
It depends on if the ironic characterization is friendly and includes the speaker within the mimicked object

I like boks

>>18755858
It's certainly the case that irony is compatible with an amiable nature. For instance, whether irony is involved or not, I have more difficulty understanding people who aren't amiable than people who are, since they habitually equivocate in tricky ways, to put people off, often without even realizing that they're doing it. Of course everyone needs privacy, but the brittle way they defend theirs always gives me longer pause than someone with a more insinuative style does.

What am I missing out on here? Whenever I've had an emotionally difficult/heavy conversation (even with people, say, at work) it's literally never gone poorly for me. I've never had somebody insist that I must be joking or try to play the whole thing off as a bit. All this hand-wringing about 'irony' strikes me as making a mountain out of a molehill cuz from what I can see sincerity is perfectly alive and well. Yeah, in large swathes of lowest common denominator culture (e.g.: advertising and reality TV) it's so thick you could cut it with a knife. But people don't live in those places. Not even normies. You can just talk to people directly all the time and it's fine. I don't get it.

>>18754673
lawd i feel like i addressed this in my last post. Sincerity doesn't mean saying everything you think and feel without a filter like a dumb monkey. Everything lives within its own means. Theres nothing more to what you're saying.

>>18755065
A sincere post like yours gets ignored by the pseuds, happy to wallow in their own self-defeat while hating on anyone not blackpilled

>>18756762
>sincerity is not about sincerity

>>18756895
you inbred. Sincerity doesn't mean living by your id instincts like a dumb animal. It just means living within a means which is honest but also very generally conforms to social standards. There are way more things that I am not socially allowed to bring up in social circles than I am, and this has nothing to do with "dishonesty" or "insincerity." I can talk to my best friends about anything; bowel movements to ejaculation. Whoever is arguing with me on this point seeeems to imply that not discussing these things openly with absolute strangers is a mark of insincerity. Its conflating "the majority of people don't share their authentic selves" with "most people don't say whatever they want, ignoring social boundaries."
You have got to be trolling me.

>>18756577
Exactly. Most people on this board are just putting their own experiences and fears into a far wider application than makes sense. While irony is an issue, its not as simple as most posters seem to imply. Still, it is an issue which we should discuss. It has become a dominant form of communication and that always has implications for how the culture and people are going to be affected. For something which is necessarily negative and necessarily "on the outside" of what it is referencing, the implications are not going to be small.

>>18755085
I hear what you're saying and take it to heart, but it is hard to think that your view of the generation below you being inauthentic is somehow unique when that has been projected onto every young generation in human history, from Plato to Cicero to George Elliott. They all discuss in their work how the newest generation is lacking in whatever made those before them authentic and great. I won't deny that smart phone culture is ruining the minds of youth, but its hard to ignore the implication of you being in your mid 30s. At the same time I do absolutely think the young are having their brains microwaved and that is going to show in how they present themselves, but sincerity is another thing which I think, despite the affects of media, is still present if you genuinely look for it.

>>18757013
>They all discuss in their work how the newest generation is lacking in whatever made those before them authentic and great.
"People have been complaining about this since forever"? I see no issue or contradiction in this. Yes people have been talking about newspapers like we're talking about smartphones today. That doesn't make that concern unfounded. Things did get worse and worse over time. A medieval friar probably had a far stronger attention span and memory than the more erudite academics of our time.

>>18740975
These views are becoming mainstream.

>>18757193
He's been saying shit like this forever. There's those older quotes where he's shitting on people around his age range for doing nothing but wasting their lives on the socials. Says some shit like learn to skateboard or whatever.

>>18757334
he has indeed. he talks about it a lot in his larry king interview and lambasts those who are apathetic and only like shit because it's cool (though of course this is nothing new). he advocates riding bikes a lot lmao. surprisingly based considering the absolute state of the genre he mostly fits into

My thoughts on irony are very personal, but I like irony as a method of self expression, especially online. Irl, well, if you trust someone to be your acquaintance, you might as well be honest about your cringe moments and true feelings. Yet online you can hide your real beliefs and morals under layers of ironic substance, and no one will really question whether you are for real or not, because nobody cares that much

>>18743244
What happened with the Enlightment that changed humor and being? Is it the fact that everybody suddenly had to worry about their intellect and knowledge?

Wallace didn’t read Derrida and it shows

>>18740975
Thats the antidepressents talking.

>>18757013
>It just means living within a means which is honest but also very generally conforms to social standards.
>very generally conforms to social standards
>conforms to social standards.
you dont know what you are talking about. you are the problem. remind me to a story of john cheever where the narrator criticize her brother all the story, about how he is an antisocial asshole, unnecesary apatethic, how he stay away and dont enjoy life and that time in family, only to understand in the final of the story that the narrator was the asshole and the vulgar and "social conforming" person all the way. great story.

>>18740975
>DFW was right about the snarky, super-ironic culture today being anathema to the soul. People are genuinely afraid of expressing any of their feelings anymore, to be earnest makes you 'cringe'. It’s all so tiring. What other authors or essays besides DFW's works comment on this?
This >>18741525 is the best response in this thread. The fixation people have on irony as a sort of core cultural malaise goes too far on too little, and becomes a sort of empty signifier of "things I don't like". I'm particularly confused by the (often very strongly held) idea that a new sincerity is, or will be, the driver of a new and transformative literary movement. Trying to problematise irony strikes me as a sort of attempt to prop up a "bogeyman" not unlike the way Victorian era people gasped and fainted over beastly sexual expression, or how our present day culture has a sort of crusade against the emotion of hatred. The only difference being that those influenced by DFW cannot make their crusade against irony anywhere near as successful outside a small network of literary folks.

the only thing more gay and obnoxious than the pervasive presence of irony in popular culture is DFW readers

>seinfeld bad
>meandering pop culture essays for pseuds good
but by all means keep taking stake in the words of a bandana wearing clown who killed himself almost 2 decades ago

>>18759768
shut the fuck up tranny

>>18740975
>sincerity
>meaning
>feelings
>honesty
>Turing machines
>the singularity
>language games
>Broom of the System
>science
>knowledge
>words
>phonemes
>perceptible sounds
>hnng
>silence

>>18740975
i dont like to express my feelings in front of others. when people around me are very expressive and share their emotions, i just cringe and dont know how to react. this just applies to emotions like sadness, fear etc. i dont have any problem with joy or anger. am i gay?

>>18741025
My dad used to get drunk and attack me, and this caused an arrested development. Familial dissonance is just one of the causes of the shallow soullessness of today’s people though. It did work to imbue me with my personality. I was later blessed with visions of the infinite. Now I have no reason to be ironic or an asshole, but in dealing with others I can’t help but be a bit ironic or fake because they’re never really “open”, even if you know what they’re thinking, and they have too much energy invested in stupid shit. Anons should start soul searching and praying. Writing the things you love, poetry, practice an instrument, even just exercise and meditation.

>>18741056
Start passing out your writing downtown or something. Posting on the boards is a surefire way to trigger insecure pseuds if your writing is any good. Great if you want to draw the ire of some stressed out idiot who needs someone/something to lash out at.

>>18740975
Ok Boomer. Check out Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet. He adresses the problem of irony and why you should be ready to be entirely sincere instead if you ever truly need to write (need, not want; Rilke advises that people who can survive not writing should abstain from it).

Which book of DFW do I read on this? Where does he dissect this issue most?

>>18740975
>People are genuinely afraid of expressing any of their feelings anymore, to be earnest makes you 'cringe'.
Here's a thought: push back against that by just not giving a fuck what other people might find """""cringe""""". Find your convictions and passions, express them authentically whenever you have reason to, and then laugh internally at the people who fall all over themselves trying to shame you for genuinely believing in something without qualification or any attempt at ironic detachment. Once you get to this point, you start to realize that the vast majority of these people are at best prototypical versions of yourself that live in a constant state of fear and confusion, and who will most likely never manage to emerge from it. After a while, it won't even bother you because you understand where they're coming from and you know there's nothing you could ever yourself do in order to change it for them. You grow to take it in stride, good-naturedly even, because you recognize that everyone alive is just trying to find the way to make this whole "living" thing work, and that they're just taking a different tack. You realize from your position atop a lot of genuinely hard introspective work that your position of self-knowledge is nothing but the aggregate of its individual efforts, and that the only thing separating you from them is the time you've put into it. You've done the work, they haven't. There's no lesser or greater, just differing amounts of work directed towards different areas. Then, finally, you begin to see that none of it even matters, that we're all going to die someday, that entropy is a finite process and swirling inevitably down a true death spiral from which nothing that ever has been or will be can escape. Death begins to feel like nothing more than a warm embrace at the end of a difficult journey, like closing your eyes to fall asleep after a long day of doing what you love with the people you care about, and that it's nothing to fear.

Like, nigger, really – who gives the slightest fuck what is or isn't cringe?

>>18741010
But that's the secret to greatness. Pursuing your goals and ideals besides the whining of the masses. You ignore the nonsense.

>>18741054
>Can you provide me with somewhere to begin?

The Greeks

>>18741131
ok McCloy, see you later for a drink.

>>18761838
Take a good, long look at your basedjak collection. Consider the contempt that you hold for these self-portraits and by implication the living mockery of a human being you've become. Seek help.

>>18762047
based and wise post

>>18762047
> don't give a fuck what other people find cringe find your convictions and passions yadda yadda nihilism
they won anon

>>18747306

Forget about being sincere in professional life, it's a bad idea.

>>18751841

Nowadays people call being "brutally honest" what used to be called being sincere (not sure when this crap got into play but I've just noticed this last year). I think this reflects well the value of being sincere nowadays.

>>18752734
Great post fren, I've been noticing this myself as well for the past years. This is akin to the "starter pack"ization of people, where people need to fit really well into pre-defined archetypes, else they'll be considered weirdos or outcasts.

We're all becoming a fucking hive mind.

>>18753697

Early 30s here and I'm seeing the exact same phenomena as well. I though it was all in my head but apparently it actually it isn't, so it's somewhat reassuring that I'm not totally insane yet.

>>18763797
I'm not a nihilist.

>>18763507
>Take a good, long look at your basedjak collection. Consider the contempt that you hold for these self-portraits and by implication the living mockery of a human being you've become. Seek help.

>>18764348
dare I say, based!?

>>18764413

>Take a good, long look at your basedjak collection. Consider the contempt that you hold for these self-portraits and by implication the living mockery of a human being you've become. Seek help.

I fucking hate zoomers so fucking much.
sage

>>18764520
Sea kelp.

>>18752734
> Now this kind of diversity is not only much rarer but when it does come up it's often seen as a much more alarming thing, like if someone doesn't make eye contact or has a certain tone of voice he registers as "weird" or "off" and that's how he stays in people's heads.

Huh. I'm 32 and I got the impression it was always like this.

>>18764726
are you sure you're not a lying tranny?

>>18764757
It's how it was at my highschool

>>18741022
>But flippancy is the best of all. In the first place it is very economical. Only a clever human can make a real Joke about virtue, or indeed about anything else; any of them can be trained to talk as if virtue were funny. Among flippant people the joke is always assumed to have been made. No one actually makes it; but every serious subject is discussed in a manner which implies that they have already found a ridiculous side to it. If prolonged, the habit of Flippancy builds up around a man the finest armour-plating against the Enemy that I know, and it is quite free from the dangers inherent in the other sources of laughter. It is a thousand miles away from joy: it deadens, instead of sharpening, the intellect; and it excites no affection between those who practise it.

C.S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters"

>>18763507
Genuinely one od the best “OWNED” replies in all of fucking 4chan, my fucking sides

>>18764726

When psychiatrists interview patients they always rate eye contact on a scale from "intense" to "good" to "fair" to "poor". I can pretty much tell whether someone has a psychiatric diagnosis just based on their eye contact style. People with really bad eye contact usually have psychotic disorders or autism.

>>18761962

Maybe I don't have the energy to be "open" with you because of other shit in my life and other people I need to deal with. Why do you think you're entitled to the "openness" of people you hardly know?

You sound like a rapist.

>>18765641
>tfw you have to remember to make eye contact with others manually because you lack the ability to see emotions in other people's eyes
Honestly, it was heartbreaking to find out other people do this and they could tell there was something wrong with me because I didn't. How easy must communication and relationships be for people who can just look at another person's eyes and know what they're feeling, it sounds superhuman. I never would've realized the existence of this ability without having been told.

>>18740975
you are just a cringelord who gets bullied on discord. your "sincerity" is insincere people sucking each other off in a hugbox. people express their feelings through irony. if you can't understand how, you probably have autism and should get diagnosed immediately.

>>18767215
This has to be bait, because it's the most braindead NPC post I've seen in a long time. Fucking hell psychology is just modern day inquisition

The receiver of irony does not have to interpret the irony as irony, but can take the view that it is a serious comment.

>>18765641
>making diagnosis based in eye-contact
>somehow this retard think this is brilliant

>>18765641
>I can pretty much tell whether someone has a psychiatric diagnosis just based on their eye contact style.
The person I mentioned is a perfectly healthy individual, it's just a quirk he has. Your job is to give edible lobotomies to people because they don't conform, which always means that they're dissimulating their emotions efficiently. The vast majority of people aren't socially flawless and they dissimulate to a degree.

>>18765641
It's like when interviewers, a completely fucking useless job figure made up of psychotic, controlling manipulators with no concrete skills, ask you a question like "what do you think is your biggest flaw in a workplace environment?" you are not supposed to tell them your actual flaw, you are supposed to say something clever so she knows that you know how to answer to the question, that means you are a good boy and she gives you the job. This is why workplaces are filled with unskilled manipulators instead of people who actually know how to do shit. But according to this model of society this is how it should be, because for this retarded God-machine the #1 requirement isn't merit but compliance and expendability.

>>18741010
that's that sigma male grindset

>>18767670
To be fair, most interviewers aren't professional interviewers, they're just people who work at the job who get tasked with interviewing new applicants. They don't all ask about your biggest flaw because it's some grand conspiracy, they don't even know what the correct answer is supposed to be, they just went online and googled "good interview questions" the night before. It literally doesn't matter what you say as an answer as long as you're amicable and display intelligence, I have gotten jobs by saying "I'm a perfectionist" in an obviously sarcastic tone. You can also just dodge the question and completely derail the interview format by just having a conversation with the guy. I unironically spent most of the interview at my current job talking to the guy about street fighter. You just sound mad because you're unlikeable.

>>18767833
>To be fair, most interviewers aren't professional interviewers
most people here get hired through recruitment agencies
when I got interviewed by internals, or the boss, things always went much better and I never got the weird puzzle questions. Getting interviewed by the boss was always like
>"Tell me about the other experiences you've had"
>"Ok can you show me previous work you've done"
>talking in the extra languages if the extra languages were important
And other questions that were actually about evaluating me as an asset instead of
>Okay if you were to describe yourself as a type of grocery, what kind grocery would you be? :^)

>>18767833
>people with a semi-smug tone defending job interviewers
the world is completely mad.

>>18767833
>It literally doesn't matter what you say as an answer as long as you're amicable and display intelligence, I have gotten jobs by saying "I'm a perfectionist" in an obviously sarcastic tone.
how the fuck is this not true to
>>18767670
>you are not supposed to tell them your actual flaw, you are supposed to say something clever so she knows that you know how to answer to the question, that means you are a good boy and she gives you the job.

>>18742517
based and thought-pilled

Reminder that this entire thread is ironic

I don't disagree with you, but can you articulate how exactly this pervasive sense of irony and insincerity expresses itself in popular culture? As in, what are the popular social/cultural movements in the last decade or so that embody this? Genuinely curious, because I see what you're referring to in my friends and people my age in general.

>>18740998

That guy was very obviously making a joke, whether or not it was funny is irrelevant, he was engaging with the topic in a positive way.

>>18742517
You escape with irony as much as you want, but life will always break your heart eventually

>>18769881
>life will always break your heart eventually
This is usually the point where the world rejects you and you're trapped in a drugs & "mental health" professionals bubble, tucked safely away from post-modernist eyes. Apart from those "serious" issues I mentioned every other problem in this society and life in general is trivialized and made fun of. If you want an example of this is, just look at celebrities who are past their prime and destroyed their face with surgery and botox. Once they reach that stage, people laugh at them, as expected, because they look so weird and gross. People do not see this in the key of these people's careers as a whole, but instead they compartmentalize this formerly attractive actress who now looks like a weird fish faced monstrosity as something to laugh at in that given moment. This is the present and the future and the past as long as the fish face is what they saw last.
Remember all the memes about David Hasselhoff's drunk video? There's an absolute cruelty in this denial of a continuity in someone's life as he's shown to fail. And this at the same time can be a saving grace because every failure is nothing but a bubble that one can use for publicity, because laughter is still a reaction, it still implies attention. Then one cleans himself up for the next show, and comes up again as serious, like a phoenix rising from its ashes. As long as you manage to escape the bubble (the egg?) and change state like a phoenix you are a winner again and you are taken seriously again. It does not matter that one does not fail, what matters is that he ends on a successful note, and that never happens because life rarely ends this merrily. Failure is a time trap where your identity gets stuck, and might be stuck forever until you are inevitably forgotten.
People cannot mix emotions, they laugh or worship. Their emotions are strict conditionals and jealous of each other. Are you a clown or a man? Will you die as a clown or will you die as a man? There is no such a thing as a tragic Pierrot, there's the clown in the act, there's the man out of the act, one is for laughs, he's marked to be so. Then there is the celebrated personality, embodiment of success, embodiment of "serious", of the "you can do it". When he takes off the clown makeup, he's human again. There's no transitional stage, there is no reflection of the clown man on the man without the clown, and vice versa. There's nothing but based or cringe. Humanity thinks this way, zero or one. Serious or not serious. Important or trivial. No truth or falsity, no right or wrong, only important or trivial.

>>18768313
Not op.
That is the culture anon, ur friends and family, people close to you.
Op didn’t mention pop culture, though pop culture is filled with this, take a look at art, how u can sell a taped banana for thousands or an ‘invisible’ sculpture.

>>18762036
E Unibus Pluram